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FastrSailr

USNA Cutbacks

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Sounds like the new SUPE needs a lecture in the benefits of this training. I am sure that he is supporting the twelve different football teams they field though. <_<

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2 thoughts - first, the Alumni network wont allow this to happen; and second, arent they in the middle of building 20 brand new 44's to replace the current ones?

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This is another installment of classic USNA funding/power struggles. BTW, who is right guy to "Lecture" the SUPE?

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This is another installment of classic USNA funding/power struggles. BTW, who is right guy to "Lecture" the SUPE?

Jobo would be a good start, backed up by a letter from Alumni.

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This truly saddens me. I learned to sail in this program at USNA. I did a year on exchange from USAFA and dove head frist into sailing. One of the high points of my young life was having the priviledge of standing on a yard of the square rigger as we sailed into New York Harbor for the Bicentenial in 1976. Bringing a "Zoomie" along for that cruise was tremendous.

 

Sad to see this happening.

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USNA hates bad press. I am confident that cool heads will prevail in the big picture. There may be some thinning in the training, but it will remain and live to see another day.

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As long as we (the american taxpayers) are asked to fund this boondoggle in iraq - its reasonable to expects program cuts like this. You can have guns or butter but not both...

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As long as we (the american taxpayers) are asked to fund this boondoggle in iraq - its reasonable to expects program cuts like this. You can have guns or butter but not both...

Blow it out your arse gator!

 

Tell it to someone who cares what you spew.

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Just ignore Gaytor. He has demonstrated that he has no experience or interest in sailing. He's just the butt-pirate for the PA gang and his "daddy".

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Blow it out your arse gator!

 

Tell it to someone who cares what you spew.

 

You're from the UK right? So STFU already...

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Do I type with an accent?

 

yes you do dickwad - you're either from the UK or your a pretenious little fuck who likes to use the word arse rather than ass.

 

I bet it's the latter... Either way your comments on reasonable cost reductions at the USNA are irrelevant...

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yes you do dickwad - your either from the UK or your a prententios like fuck who likes to use the word arse rather than ass.

 

I bet it's the latter...

I am neither a British subject nor pretentious but I do know how to spell.

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Very bad decision.

 

Sailing offshore, and more so with racing, gives one an intimate knowledge of the sea that you cannot get couped up in a steel box with no windows (a navy ship).

 

Also, facing basic challenges on a sailboat in rough going teaches teamwork, the necessity of technical skill, and leadership that cannot be acheived on a ship.

 

Cutting this program will result in inferior officers. What a shame.

 

As far as recommending a spokesperson to speak on this, Captain John Bonds (USN ret.) who was instrumental in growing the offshore program at USNA would be the person I would choose.

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Very bad decision.

 

Sailing offshore, and more so with racing, gives one an intimate knowledge of the sea that you cannot get couped up in a steel box with no windows (a navy ship).

 

Also, facing basic challenges on a sailboat in rough going teaches teamwork, the necessity of technical skill, and leadership that cannot be acheived on a ship.

 

Cutting this program will result in inferior officers. What a shame.

 

As far as recommending a spokesperson to speak on this, Captain John Bonds (USN ret.) who was instrumental in growing the offshore program at USNA would be the person I would choose.

John Rousmaniere (sp?) would probably also be a good one to weigh in on the leadership benefits of offshore racing.

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The article and its timing are probably part of a concerted effort to change Adm Fowler's mind on sailing and its benefits. He's been a sub guy most of his life so "sailing" is something that's foreign to him. The internal staff has tried to persuade him but to no avail so it's probaly time to go outside for help, hence Angus' article and the Fales Committee (Jobson et al.).

 

I've helped coach the Mids on the summer sails to Newport and it all about small unit leadership in adverse conditions. Most of them have never sailed or have limited experience prior to the Academy so sailing doesn't always come naturally to them. These 19 and 20 year olds are now in charge of the health, life, and safety of 6-8 crew in the ocean on a 44' boat. They soon realize that if they screw something up, people will die. There is no "reset button" in a nor'easter when you are 100 miles offshore.

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The article and its timing are probably part of a concerted effort to change Adm Fowler's mind on sailing and its benefits. He's been a sub guy most of his life so "sailing" is something that's foreign to him. The internal staff has tried to persuade him but to no avail so it's probaly time to go outside for help, hence Angus' article and the Fales Committee (Jobson et al.).

 

I've helped coach the Mids on the summer sails to Newport and it all about small unit leadership in adverse conditions. Most of them have never sailed or have limited experience prior to the Academy so sailing doesn't always come naturally to them. These 19 and 20 year olds are now in charge of the health, life, and safety of 6-8 crew in the ocean on a 44' boat. They soon realize that if they screw something up, people will die. There is no "reset button" in a nor'easter when you are 100 miles offshore.

 

While this need to be addressed, Adm Fowler is not the first SUPE to diss the sailing/training program. He will be gone at some point. Hopefully a SUPE with sailing/understanding follows him, but you just never know.

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"Cutting this program will result in inferior officers. What a shame."

 

 

You can't be serious.

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having met (and copiously drunk with) a large number of the mids both in Bermuda and at block and found them to be great guys, i do feel sorry that this pretty cool program is being cut, and training like this can only be a positive in terms of semanship, management and morale

 

having been jealous of the boats they get to sail (well not too jealous of the 44's but y'know!), the amounts they get to sail them - to say nothing of the 3 (?) Farr 40's which were totalled after they didn't tie them down on cradles - and the funding they get compared to what i will expect when i enter the Royal Navy i must shamefacedly admit to feeling a little bit smug when i read this!

 

 

Mid Perrin RNR

 

bull gator - before you scream i am a us citizen so i reckon i have a right to comment

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The Navy boys should name their last boat

Its a shame, since they own the Blue Water Bowl (Annapolis-Newport PHRF Overall) and the Lloyd Phoenix Trophy (US Sailing National Champs) amongst many others.

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When the new Supierindent takes the "helm", the sailing programs will be funded. With the current war, the sailing program needs to have less of an "emphasis"... I'm a member of NASS no need to worry.

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I had the pleasure of being at a dinner with the past Supt. He was very eloquent in his description of the benefits of the offshore sailing program.

 

The program at the U of Washington is the beneficiary of the new fleet at USNA. Vigilant and Lively are now in residence and being used to enhance the program. Good times for the future of the Navy, the kids get valuable lessons and the old guys get to go sailing every weekend!

 

BTW, when Adm Rempf (sp) was here, he went out on the old "Lively", a Luders yawl and sailed her into the marina when there was a failure in the engine compartment. Big winds and bad current held no sway over a very impressive man.

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"Cutting this program will result in inferior officers. What a shame."

You can't be serious.

 

Yep I am serious.

Now go rag on a 105.

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One of the best treatises on the importance of sail training I have read is this- written by Captain Joe Prosser as a proposal to increase sail training at Kings Point, and it sums up our goals at the KP Waterfront. I'm not sure of the date it was written, but likely late 70's or early 80's. It is a bit long, but well worth the read- I recently scanned it from hard copy, so there may be a few glitches in it.

ProsserSailTraining.doc

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Yep I am serious.

Now go rag on a 105.

 

If you seriously believe that not sailing will result in inferior officers, then you are a fucking idiot.

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As far as sailing teaches team leadership, he has a good point. Inferior may be a bit strong, but it is hard to argue that it hurts. But then you do seem to like to argue for the sake of it. Carry on.

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John Rousmaniere (sp?) would probably also be a good one to weigh in on the leadership benefits of offshore racing.

 

Why? - he is a dolt - disguised as an armchair sailor

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As an aside I was down at the North Chicago Naval Station (a.k.a. "Great Lakes") the last Recruit Training Command in the US Navy. I was mucking around the base and drove down to the waterfront to see the marina. I had not been there (the marina) in about 5 years and the last time I was there it was pretty sad. Well, it still is. But much to my surprise there is actually a major renovation project - I was told $13 million - to fix up the place.

 

As I was wandering around I came across a plaque about the boathouse (the building with water at both ends in the map.)

 

The placque said that until the 1950's the recruits would row lifeboats out into Lake Michigan as part of their training. The building entrance is actually on the West (non-Lake) side of the boathouse so that it would be in a lee when they brought the lifeboats in for storage.

 

I guess in the days of flying an LCAC into the water off the back of an amfib the concept of rowing lifeboats seems a little quaint but somehow I think the Navy misses something for not providing that kind of experience in basic training - Recruit, USNA, ROTC, or OCS. It makes me a little sad.

 

 

 

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Sailed "Vigilant" to Bermuda one year. I can attest that sailing, especially learning to sail, makes a better naval officer. The vast majority of the naval officers I served with that had no small boat experience did not understand the effects the wind, waves and current have on a ship. They were learning all these things as they went and were unprepared. Just my 2 cents.

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Sailed "Vigilant" to Bermuda one year. I can attest that sailing, especially learning to sail, makes a better naval officer. The vast majority of the naval officers I served with that had no small boat experience did not understand the effects the wind, waves and current have on a ship. They were learning all these things as they went and were unprepared. Just my 2 cents.

 

You reminded me of a similiar experience. It was summer and we were doing the Midshipman - ROTC - etc. rotation. We would get a group of students on board (FFG-15 USS Estocin) for a couple of days. The idea was to show them the "surface" Navy. They would then go on to, or have come from, the Subs and the Air wing. Anyway, since it was show and tell we got to do a lot of stuff that would otherwise be pretty rare - fire off the CWIS, etc. But the thing we had the most fun with was man overboard drill. We would throw a smoke flare in the water and then the "students" would have to navigate the ship back and touch the bow to the flare. We would then haul off a bit and give the next student the chance. I was amazed at how about 60% of the young people could not figure out how to get back to the flare. (btw - this was in the open Atlantic Ocean miles off shore - lots of wind and waves.) They just had no concept of what the wind and wave patterns were doing to the flare, much less any understanding of how to handle the ship. Now I grant that conning a FFG is not something most people learn in 5 minutes, but even when we would ask the students where they were trying to go and help them with the conning orders they would go the wrong way.

 

I think a lot of hot shots got humbled and became better people and better officers as a result.

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Why? - he is a dolt - disguised as an armchair sailor

His record would indicate otherwise.

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You reminded me of a similiar experience. It was summer and we were doing the Midshipman - ROTC - etc. rotation. We would get a group of students on board (FFG-15 USS Estocin) for a couple of days. The idea was to show them the "surface" Navy. They would then go on to, or have come from, the Subs and the Air wing. Anyway, since it was show and tell we got to do a lot of stuff that would otherwise be pretty rare - fire off the CWIS, etc. But the thing we had the most fun with was man overboard drill. We would throw a smoke flare in the water and then the "students" would have to navigate the ship back and touch the bow to the flare. We would then haul off a bit and give the next student the chance. I was amazed at how about 60% of the young people could not figure out how to get back to the flare. (btw - this was in the open Atlantic Ocean miles off shore - lots of wind and waves.) They just had no concept of what the wind and wave patterns were doing to the flare, much less any understanding of how to handle the ship. Now I grant that conning a FFG is not something most people learn in 5 minutes, but even when we would ask the students where they were trying to go and help them with the conning orders they would go the wrong way.

 

I think a lot of hot shots got humbled and became better people and better officers as a result.

 

 

I think you are absolutely right. I know from my days that my 3rd class cruise in the "real navy" was no more than an exercise in seeing how much sleep I could get. Now granted, maybe I wasn't the most motivated mid, but I felt I learned more about being an officer and being in command to make decisions on a 40' sailboat than on a cruiser.

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If you seriously believe that not sailing will result in inferior officers, then you are a fucking idiot.

 

Sorry DoRag what was I thinking. of course you are always right. We should all defer our opinions because DoRag has spoken. End of story.

 

Perhaps DoRag, you could enlighten us with a list of your qualifications and experience to make such a definitive statement. I sure you must have lots of each to completely discount the views that are a bit different than yours, by a large number of people.

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Why? - he is a dolt - disguised as an armchair sailor

 

It's odd how someone can spend time building respect, and in one comment, loose so much.

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Although i wont argue with the potential for improved actual conning ability of a sailor, i don't believe that this - even in close manouvere situations - would make a ton of difference in how 'good' (used losely) a Naval officer would be

 

I reckon that a sailing program

 

a) improves the abibility to respond quickly and effectively to an unforeseen situation (chinese gybe with gear faliure, say)

 

B) improves the leadership potential (above, taking on responsibiity i.e watch captain with real consequences, working in a small unit)

 

c) improves navigational ability (if one truly understands EP'ing on a 40footer which is relatively affected more by the 'motion of the ocean' then on a big grey ship you will be better, if one needs to spend less time - see a - learning how a ship drives etc then you can spend more time on nav and warfare systems) an absolute and TOTAL speculation - would a yachtie who has experience in banging corners and short tacking around obstacles have a better chance to notice Wolf Rock (see HMS Nottingham disaster)

 

d) develops people skills (we have all had to deal with an acerbic character offshore, in a CVF you can avoid him/her, in a 40fter you can't

 

e) good for morale (need i say more?)

 

This reminds me of a story i hear around about the ex CO of HMS Ark Royal (what we call an aircraft carrier, what you guys call a patrol ship!) who was not allowed to charter a sunsail bareboat in Greece. Dunno if its true, and doubtless he was well qualified - but is the modern naval officer really a seaman like Nelson's young officers?

 

I could go on, but i think most of us agree and see the need for this sort of program, plus we are all sailors so we doubtless would argue for it

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Heck driving a Spruance can (Gas turbine powered destroyer) was a blast doing MOB drills even after getting SWO qualified (water wings for you "others"). I also had to learn how to row a lifeboat and the proper terms and commands for rowing.

 

Any experience on the water makes you a better sailor and officer, and the closer to the water the more you realize it, it is very hard to realize that standing 50 feet above the water.

 

Sorta like if you want to learn to be a good racer start off in OPTIs, vice a Farr 40...

 

JB

 

BTW, I was a Schuyler grad not a USNA grad

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Heck driving a Spruance can (Gas turbine powered destroyer) was a blast doing MOB drills even after getting SWO qualified (water wings for you "others"). I also had to learn how to row a lifeboat and the proper terms and commands for rowing.

 

Any experience on the water makes you a better sailor and officer, and the closer to the water the more you realize it, it is very hard to realize that standing 50 feet above the water.

 

Sorta like if you want to learn to be a good racer start off in OPTIs, vice a Farr 40...

 

JB

 

BTW, I was a Schuyler grad not a USNA grad

 

and with that, i think this argument is closed! - spot on

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Hooah got it right actually. While there is little doubt that experience in small boats will make anyone a better big boat driver...or conning officer, the real value was that there is no "training timeouts" on a small boat in the middle of the ocean. On a grey ship cruise (as Adm Fowler wants mids to do more of) its all to easy to hide in your rack and not do much of anything. In the middle of the night in a Nor'easter, its much harder to hide in your rack...so the leadership training was accomplished by putting mids in a leadership situation where they had to perform...even when sick, wet, cold and tired. It is one of the only environments where that is true short of actual combat...and thats what made the program so valuable. The sailing a small boat and learning seamanship and nav is actually secondary.

 

And yes, my vocational degree comes from the boat school and it's varsity offshore sailing program...

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I went to the Supe's brief to everyone where he succinctly pointed out his views on the worth of cruises on "gray ships" vs sailing the 44's coastwise. His point was that being aboard the ships gives them experience working with the enlisted talent. He is big on the worth of Mids learning from experienced enlisted staff. He did seem to have little regard for sail training but his main point seemed to be that we are a nation at war and somehow, having Mids out "Yachting" for the summer conveyed the wronng message. It's like reasoning with Rumsfeld - they are on a whole different plane.

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One of the best treatises on the importance of sail training I have read is this- written by Captain Joe Prosser as a proposal to increase sail training at Kings Point, and it sums up our goals at the KP Waterfront. I'm not sure of the date it was written, but likely late 70's or early 80's. It is a bit long, but well worth the read- I recently scanned it from hard copy, so there may be a few glitches in it.

 

Google Capt Joe Prosser - he was quite an interesting guy. There is a Joe Prosser award at US Sailing for excellence in Sail Instruction. Interesting for me as I had never heard of him before.

 

Also the boathouse at the USMMA is named for him: http://www.usmma.edu/waterfront/facility.htm

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Didn't we have this thread a year or two ago? Seems like this is a recurring theme at USNA...

 

 

It is a recurring theme. I was the "last" Commodore of the old Midshipmen Sailing Squadron in the mid 70's when we established an Offshore Division of the Sailing Team that previously was just dinghies and Shields. That moved offshore sailing out of the "intramural activity" category. We built a case on seamanship training and put the yawls back on the ocean for the 1975 Annapolis-Newport race. Capt Alex Grosvenor, CO of NAVSTA Annapolis, Commodore of NASS and former US Olympic sailor when he was a Mid was instrumental in putting Mids back on blue water as were dedicated members of NASS and the Fales Committee. It's important to understand that tax dollars pay for the intercollegiate dinghies, the training keelboats and the 44's but the support for the donated yachts comes from the Naval Academy Sailing Foundation and proceeds generated when they are ultimately sold.

 

Over the years, leadership support for sailing rose and fell. Lately, it's been pretty high until this year. There is a significant seamanship and leadership impact from training and leading a group of midshipmen on a sailboat offshore. In a high tech, digital navy, it's sometimes easy to forget that an understanding of set, drift, and carry is part of developing a seaman's eye that contributes to keeping ships off the bottom and aircraft in flight. Leadership (as opposed to management) is developed by placing young officers to be in positions where they must make decisions that impact the success (and often safety) of their crew. Offshore sailing is a unique opportunity to provide that experience.

 

Can you train Naval Officers without sending them to sea in small boats? Certainly. Are they better seaman and leaders for experiencing small boat seamanship, under sail, offshore? Without a doubt.

 

Larry Howard

Captain, USN (Ret)

USNA '77

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While it's true that there are significant learning opportunities when the mids interact with experienced enlisted personnel, I was under the impression that Adm. Rempf felt the value of the 44s lay in the chance to take command of a crew of peers.

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If you seriously believe that not sailing will result in inferior officers, then you are a fucking idiot.

 

WTF, have you ever been offshore in real weather, Rag? If you DONT think this builds character in then I am pretty sure you had your head up your ass the whole time you were out. This is the NAVY they are talking about. If you wanted to build naval character scrub the football team and increase offshore time in 44 footers.

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While it's true that there are significant learning opportunities when the mids interact with experienced enlisted personnel, I was under the impression that Adm. Rempf felt the value of the 44s lay in the chance to take command of a crew of peers.

For sure ADM Rempt did, but ADM Fowler is more concerned with getting Mids integrated with the "real" Navy. I'm sure he realizes the value of small unit leadership but considers it secondary to working on larger surface ships with a learning enviornment instead of a Leadership one. I'm not defending this, just saying how I heard him. The next Supe may be all over Leadership possibilities of small craft offshore.

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Sorry DoRag what was I thinking. of course you are always right. We should all defer our opinions because DoRag has spoken. End of story.

 

Perhaps DoRag, you could enlighten us with a list of your qualifications and experience to make such a definitive statement. I sure you must have lots of each to completely discount the views that are a bit different than yours, by a large number of people.

 

LCDR.

 

OINC, PCF.

 

Two tours combat zone.

 

Or not.

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LCDR.

 

OINC, PCF.

 

Two tours combat zone.

 

Or not.

 

If I may ask:

 

What unit? What years?

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LCDR.

 

OINC, PCF.

 

Two tours combat zone.

 

Or not.

 

So you drove a 50ish foot motorboat around. Hardly seagoing navy eh?

But you don't think the USNA offshore sailing program contributes to a better officer, and you are entitled to that opinion.

I respectfully disagree. So I guess I am a f--ing idiot in your view.

Have a nice day!

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WTF, have you ever been offshore in real weather, Rag? If you DONT think this builds character in then I am pretty sure you had your head up your ass the whole time you were out. This is the NAVY they are talking about. If you wanted to build naval character scrub the football team and increase offshore time in 44 footers.

 

 

As the great General, Geroge Marshell said: "I have a secret and dangerous mission. Send me an Army football player."

 

Note that he didn't want a wimp sailor.......

 

For others, please forgive me for using an Army quote....

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Butch Ulmar wrote a letter to scuttlebut today that I thought had some salient points. I'd think that a cadet would learn more about teamwork, command and handling a boat on a 44 then he would being a crew member on a boat with 100's if not 1000's of people, but hey what do I know.

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Would not surprise me to see Uncle Charlie make his first SA post in this thread.....maybe he is leery of a newbie salute!

 

As for the scuttlebutt letter he wrote, I am sure that isn't the first nor the last Admiral Fowler will hear from Mr. Ulmer. And Butch is very right on the subject, nothing teaches good seamanship skills like sailing does.

 

 

I can only think of one US Navy warship that has sails.......

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I can only think of one US Navy warship that has sails.......

 

Didn't they just repair it and sail it for a couple of days in the last 10 years or so? I seem to remember reading something about it. Something more than the annual turn around?

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I can only think of one US Navy warship that has sails.......

 

True, and if a recall correctly they had to get the CG to teach them how to sail it when she was brought out for the bicentennial. The point is that the USNA is charged with molding the future leaders USN, I think the sailing program does help them become leaders and better seaman.*

 

* If you are just having this discussion for the sake of it please send me a PM letting me know.

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Good old Wikipedia....

One of only 4 US Navy ships in commission that has sunk another ship.

 

post-22802-1207879639_thumb.jpg

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This is another installment of classic USNA funding/power struggles. BTW, who is right guy to "Lecture" the SUPE?

 

No, actually this is probably about the appropriate application of human resources during a time our country is at war. Anyone paying attention to the fact that our military is stretched beyond the point of breaking and that somehow perhaps it might be not only prudent, but necessary to accelerate the learning curve of midshipmen for serious naval duty on a warship?

 

No doubt the Luders 44 provide alot of leadership skills in many ways, but sometimes programs like this have to be put on the shelf for a while. This is probably one of those times. What may have worked in years gone by simply may not apply given the reality we face today.

 

And any suggestion that a civilian is going to go "lecture" a military leader, in any capacity, is the height of arrogant, egotistical thinking. Civilians can go lecture other civilians in the government, but they have no business giving a "lecture" to person who serves this country in uniform.

 

I'm not trying to defend the US involvement in wars, just trying to say that civilians have appropriate channels of communication with our military, and saying that a civilian is going to go "lecture" a military person suggests a real naive, if not falsely romantic view of the role the Naval Academy plays for our country.

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My initial response to this whole thing was fuck this. These guys should learn to sail the 44s. But I do admit that some of the thinking that these guys will probably be better served by time aboard ships with the enlisted before they are actually commissioned in this current military environment seems to make some sense.

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No, actually this is probably about the appropriate application of human resources during a time our country is at war. Anyone paying attention to the fact that our military is stretched beyond the point of breaking and that somehow perhaps it might be not only prudent, but necessary to accelerate the learning curve of midshipmen for serious naval duty on a warship?

 

No doubt the Luders 44 provide alot of leadership skills in many ways, but sometimes programs like this have to be put on the shelf for a while. This is probably one of those times. What may have worked in years gone by simply may not apply given the reality we face today.

 

And any suggestion that a civilian is going to go "lecture" a military leader, in any capacity, is the height of arrogant, egotistical thinking. Civilians can go lecture other civilians in the government, but they have no business giving a "lecture" to person who serves this country in uniform.

 

I'm not trying to defend the US involvement in wars, just trying to say that civilians have appropriate channels of communication with our military, and saying that a civilian is going to go "lecture" a military person suggests a real naive, if not falsely romantic view of the role the Naval Academy plays for our country.

 

10-4 on that, Batman.

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No, actually this is probably about the appropriate application of human resources during a time our country is at war. Anyone paying attention to the fact that our military is stretched beyond the point of breaking and that somehow perhaps it might be not only prudent, but necessary to accelerate the learning curve of midshipmen for serious naval duty on a warship?

 

No doubt the Luders 44 provide alot of leadership skills in many ways, but sometimes programs like this have to be put on the shelf for a while. This is probably one of those times. What may have worked in years gone by simply may not apply given the reality we face today.

 

And any suggestion that a civilian is going to go "lecture" a military leader, in any capacity, is the height of arrogant, egotistical thinking. Civilians can go lecture other civilians in the government, but they have no business giving a "lecture" to person who serves this country in uniform.

 

I'm not trying to defend the US involvement in wars, just trying to say that civilians have appropriate channels of communication with our military, and saying that a civilian is going to go "lecture" a military person suggests a real naive, if not falsely romantic view of the role the Naval Academy plays for our country.

 

Last I checked, the US has no declaration of war against anyone. Afghanistan and Iraq both have sovereign oestensibly independent governments, and given that Afghanistan is landlocked, its kinda hard to see what urgency the USN has to do with it.

 

As for the idea that civillians have no right to lecture military is borderline treason. The US Constitution explicitly puts the USN subordiante to civillians. You perhaps might be more comfortable in a country like Pakistan where the Military effectively _IS_ the government, but for now at least, in the USA, the military does answer to civillians and not the other way around

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Last I checked, the US has no declaration of war against anyone. Afghanistan and Iraq both have sovereign oestensibly independent governments, and given that Afghanistan is landlocked, its kinda hard to see what urgency the USN has to do with it.

 

As for the idea that civillians have no right to lecture military is borderline treason. The US Constitution explicitly puts the USN subordiante to civillians. You perhaps might be more comfortable in a country like Pakistan where the Military effectively _IS_ the government, but for now at least, in the USA, the military does answer to civillians and not the other way around

 

 

Right you are, the US doesn't have a declaration of war.

 

But lets be real.

 

I said I wasn't defending our involvement in wars, or we can expand that to conflicts or whatever you want to call it.

 

And apparently you aren't exactly well versed in the Navy and their capabilities to help in Afghanistan, or any other landlocked country.

 

And thanks for helping to make my point - which is, if a civilian has something to say to or about the military, the appropriate thing to do is talk to the civilians who have authority over the military. Like the Senate Armed Services Cmte might be a place to start.

 

If you think going your going to lecture a person in uniform is such a hot idea, then why don't you go do exactly that and report back with your findings here.

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The navy 44's are bloody awesome. Their program of leadership and command experience on board those boat is second to none. I've sailed the boat, I've seen their program, it works. The midshipmen on the Navy team can sail the pants off of anyone else. Put the best collegiate dinghy sailors against them and they fail miserably. Kudos to those hardworking bastards. The boats are real beaters too, could sail through a hurricane. They weigh 15 tons. Everything on them is designed to an extreme working load, and is multi-redundant. The fact that they can host 10-12 teams in a collegiate regatta with over 80 sailors is a real boon to the sport. Even the dinghy sailors who have never sailed a big boat before are entranced by the experience. Alot of collegiate sailors never get very involved with the sport. I partially blame this on lack of opportunities (and knowledge) in the programs to sail these kinds of boats. We need more, not less, fleets this size and opportunities to sail these types of boats in order to grow the future leaders of our sport, today.

post-22861-1208141199_thumb.jpg

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I found out a few weeks ago that we've been supplied with a number of mids for the Newport Bermuda Race. We crew with 20+ so having them along with help. It will be interesting to get their take on what's happening with the offshore program.

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No, actually this is probably about the appropriate application of human resources during a time our country is at war. Anyone paying attention to the fact that our military is stretched beyond the point of breaking and that somehow perhaps it might be not only prudent, but necessary to accelerate the learning curve of midshipmen for serious naval duty on a warship?

 

No doubt the Luders 44 provide alot of leadership skills in many ways, but sometimes programs like this have to be put on the shelf for a while. This is probably one of those times. What may have worked in years gone by simply may not apply given the reality we face today.

 

And any suggestion that a civilian is going to go "lecture" a military leader, in any capacity, is the height of arrogant, egotistical thinking. Civilians can go lecture other civilians in the government, but they have no business giving a "lecture" to person who serves this country in uniform.

 

I'm not trying to defend the US involvement in wars, just trying to say that civilians have appropriate channels of communication with our military, and saying that a civilian is going to go "lecture" a military person suggests a real naive, if not falsely romantic view of the role the Naval Academy plays for our country.

 

 

Mr. Huston:

 

Not to disparage your remarks, I wish to make three points as to the role of the Naval Academy:

 

1. Our country has a Naval Academy. Not a Naval Management University. This is a question of Leadership vs. Management development. Leaders can manage. Managers may, or may not be leaders.

 

2. The USNA's most salient duty in our country's current conflict, is the development of United States Marine Corps Officers. This is completely, and without question development of small unit leadership.

 

3. When you discuss the "appropriate application of human resources"; I do believe the USNA is limited in the number of USMC Officers each class can commission. Maybe this needs to be revisited.

 

Please share your thoughts on these items. Thank you.

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Right you are, the US doesn't have a declaration of war.

 

But lets be real.

 

I said I wasn't defending our involvement in wars, or we can expand that to conflicts or whatever you want to call it.

 

And apparently you aren't exactly well versed in the Navy and their capabilities to help in Afghanistan, or any other landlocked country.

 

And thanks for helping to make my point - which is, if a civilian has something to say to or about the military, the appropriate thing to do is talk to the civilians who have authority over the military. Like the Senate Armed Services Cmte might be a place to start.

 

If you think going your going to lecture a person in uniform is such a hot idea, then why don't you go do exactly that and report back with your findings here.

 

Well we we don't have a declaration of war, then what is this talk of "in this time of war"?

 

As for civillians lecturing the military - Its interesting that you suggest that those invididual citizens of whom and for whom this government is constituted should essentially abase themselves before the golden epaulettes of someone in uniform. Perhaps you could try ordering around some civillians and report back how effective and appropriate that is.

 

Thanks for making my point about the dangerously growing insularity and arrogance of the armed forces.

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Well we we don't have a declaration of war, then what is this talk of "in this time of war"?

 

As for civillians lecturing the military - Its interesting that you suggest that those invididual citizens of whom and for whom this government is constituted should essentially abase themselves before the golden epaulettes of someone in uniform. Perhaps you could try ordering around some civillians and report back how effective and appropriate that is.

 

Thanks for making my point about the dangerously growing insularity and arrogance of the armed forces.

 

That comment is just about as moronic as your pontifications on the PHKW Rule as it pertained to Bad Girl.

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That comment is just about as moronic as your pontifications on the PHKW Rule as it pertained to Bad Girl.

More whining from the disgruntled peanut gallery

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More whining from the disgruntled peanut gallery

 

Strong response.

 

Is that your best game?

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All of the service branches value their traditions internally quite a bit. As a Marine (just one no longer on active duty) I will say that the traditions of the corps are ingrained in my DNA to this day and will be always. Especially the combat deployments and associated experiences, which take the traditional foundations to a whole other level.

 

The traditions of the naval service are so deeply rooted in the age tall ships and true seamanship that they should not be messed with. The sail program at the academy should stay, not even a topic for discussion.

 

And yes sending civilians to lecture the folks who have served their country in battle is, in a word, insulting....for that matter, so is having "Commander and Chiefs" such as Bill Clinton and GW Bush, neither of whom served their country in any real capacity...

 

What I do find interesting and perhaps ironic is the post regarding the CA public school system and the Pentagon. Specifically because the the fiscal imprudence of the State of California and the Pentagon are of equal magnitude.

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And yes sending civilians to lecture the folks who have served their country in battle is, in a word, insulting....for that matter, so is having "Commander and Chiefs" such as Bill Clinton and GW Bush, neither of whom served their country in any real capacity...

Seig Heil We all bow to the might of the military

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Seig Heil We all bow to the might of the military

 

Might of the military??? Think you missed the point. The point is that people who have made a real sacrifice (and no being a federal bureaucrat or public civil servant is not the same thing) deserve some small amount of deference from those who benefit from the largesse of their sacrifice, i.e. you if you are a U.S. citizen.

 

Just don't start with the bleeding hart bull shit.....the people who do serve deserve better. They are in many cases friends, neighbours, wives, husbands, sons and daughters. So, yes you should show some respect..

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Might of the military??? Think you missed the point. The point is that people who have made a real sacrifice (and no being a federal bureaucrat or public civil servant is not the same thing) deserve some small amount of deference from those who benefit from the largesse of their sacrifice, i.e. you if you are a U.S. citizen.

 

Just don't start with the bleeding hart bull shit.....the people who do serve deserve better. They are in many cases friends, neighbours, wives, husbands, sons and daughters. So, yes you should show some respect..

Mercenaries are mercenaries. Sure some sign up out of patriotism. But most who sign up in my experience ( 9 in the last year )

3 signed up because their parents were kicking them out of the house because at 19 they didn't have a steady job nor were going to school

1 signed up cuz "he wanted to blow shit up - any shit, just big explosions"

1 signed up for the signing bonus

1 signed up for the college money

1 signed up cuz he flunked out of the local CC computer AA degree

1 is considering signing up cuz he's bored with his McJob and doesn't want to go to school

 

I should have respect for these money grubbing lazy assed clowns?

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Mercenaries are mercenaries. Sure some sign up out of patriotism. But most who sign up in my experience ( 9 in the last year )

3 signed up because their parents were kicking them out of the house because at 19 they didn't have a steady job nor were going to school

1 signed up cuz "he wanted to blow shit up - any shit, just big explosions"

1 signed up for the signing bonus

1 signed up for the college money

1 signed up cuz he flunked out of the local CC computer AA degree

1 is considering signing up cuz he's bored with his McJob and doesn't want to go to school

 

I should have respect for these money grubbing lazy assed clowns?

 

Money grubbing? How much money do think these recruits are paid in relation to the work product output? It is not much. If one chooses to enlist for the money, they are severely misguided. BTW, chances are one of these "clowns" as you describe them will take a bullet in defense of your freedom.

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Mercenaries are mercenaries. Sure some sign up out of patriotism. But most who sign up in my experience ( 9 in the last year )

3 signed up because their parents were kicking them out of the house because at 19 they didn't have a steady job nor were going to school

1 signed up cuz "he wanted to blow shit up - any shit, just big explosions"

1 signed up for the signing bonus

1 signed up for the college money

1 signed up cuz he flunked out of the local CC computer AA degree

1 is considering signing up cuz he's bored with his McJob and doesn't want to go to school

 

I should have respect for these money grubbing lazy assed clowns?

 

Your experience (9 enlistees) counts for less than 0.005% of what the active military recruited last year. My experience, 20 years active duty, leading and training hundreds of enlisted and junior officers says otherwise. While a small percentage may enlist because they want to "blow stuff up" or be "Rambo" their attitudes usually change and realize the importance of their work. Duty, Honor, Country are words these people live by. Obviously that's something you'll never understand but that's okay. Not everyone is cut out for the military and chose to support their country in other ways. All we ask is that you respect the ones in uniform that have secured the freedoms you enjoy.

 

How much is that worth to you Bandit?

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Mercenaries are mercenaries. Sure some sign up out of patriotism. But most who sign up in my experience ( 9 in the last year )

3 signed up because their parents were kicking them out of the house because at 19 they didn't have a steady job nor were going to school

1 signed up cuz "he wanted to blow shit up - any shit, just big explosions"

1 signed up for the signing bonus

1 signed up for the college money

1 signed up cuz he flunked out of the local CC computer AA degree

1 is considering signing up cuz he's bored with his McJob and doesn't want to go to school

 

I should have respect for these money grubbing lazy assed clowns?

 

The first 3 or 4 pay grades qualify for food stamps you fucking moron. Money grubbing my ass, you can probably make a better living as a cashier at Wal Mart.

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Mercenaries are mercenaries. Sure some sign up out of patriotism. But most who sign up in my experience ( 9 in the last year )

3 signed up because their parents were kicking them out of the house because at 19 they didn't have a steady job nor were going to school

1 signed up cuz "he wanted to blow shit up - any shit, just big explosions"

1 signed up for the signing bonus

1 signed up for the college money

1 signed up cuz he flunked out of the local CC computer AA degree

1 is considering signing up cuz he's bored with his McJob and doesn't want to go to school

 

I should have respect for these money grubbing lazy assed clowns?

 

you cannot be serious....

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_concentration_camps - yes abstract i know but imagine that world

 

thank god for 'money grubbing lazy assed clowns' - i'm sure there are quite a few who would batter the shit out of you for that comment

 

 

 

All of the service branches value their traditions internally quite a bit. As a Marine (just one no longer on active duty) I will say that the traditions of the corps are ingrained in my DNA to this day and will be always. Especially the combat deployments and associated experiences, which take the traditional foundations to a whole other level.

 

The traditions of the naval service are so deeply rooted in the age tall ships and true seamanship that they should not be messed with. The sail program at the academy should stay, not even a topic for discussion.

 

And yes sending civilians to lecture the folks who have served their country in battle is, in a word, insulting....for that matter, so is having "Commander and Chiefs" such as Bill Clinton and GW Bush, neither of whom served their country in any real capacity...

 

What I do find interesting and perhaps ironic is the post regarding the CA public school system and the Pentagon. Specifically because the the fiscal imprudence of the State of California and the Pentagon are of equal magnitude.

 

spot on

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What I do find interesting and perhaps ironic is the post regarding the CA public school system and the Pentagon. Specifically because the the fiscal imprudence of the State of California and the Pentagon are of equal magnitude.

 

My point is that education cuts are a fact of life in this country, at every level, in every state. I'm sure every school would like to have a summer sailing camp.

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The preparation of our professional officer corps is the function of the military academies. The role of sail training is far greater than pure seamanship. There is no better vehicle available to the Navy for the leadership training of our Midshipmen than small boat training. Once the shit hits the fan offshore all the legitimate authority in the world won't help an incompetent leader. It's a blend of expert knowledge and referent power. There is no substitute for the respect and trust of those for whom you are responsible.

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From yesterdays Farr 40 Worlds Press Release-

 

"The boat with the fewest professional sailors onboard, only one, and probably the one boat with the most to gain in this experience is Nimbus Blue (USA). Crewed by all midshipmen from the U.S. Merchant Marine Academy (USMMA) and owned by Hunt Lawrence (Oyster Bay, N.Y.), this is the second world championship for the boat as it competed in the 2006 Rolex Farr 40 World Championship, in Newport, R.I.

 

"Having practiced only one day together as a team before coming into this event, I think we did remarkably well," said Chris Branning helmsman. "The first two races we had beautiful starts with clear lanes, allowing us to round the first mark in the top 12 or 14 boats. While some of our mechanics are a bit off the pace, overall we seem to be geling together as a team very well, and I think are poised to have some stellar finishes.

 

"Our straight line speed felt solid and we have proven we are capable of smooth maneuvers at all corners of the race course; we just need a little more ironing out in some areas and we will be on our way. We are stoked to be here and to be apart of such an amazing test of skill. The competition on the race course is almost unfathomable it is so intense. From the gun to the finish of each race it is a non-stop battle on every inch of the race course."

 

Brian Giorgio, mainsail trimmer onboard Nimbus Blue, summed up the team's goals. "Our team's ultimate goal for the Worlds is to become better sailors," he said. "Personally I would like to see us beat five teams and have one top 10 finish. Just the fact that we are here and able to play around with some of these boats is enough for me."

 

USMMA's offshore sailing director Ralf Steitz, who is sailing onboard John Thomson's Infinity (USA), coordinates the program for Nimbus Blue, but he is not sailing with him as he feels it is a conflict of interest and more importantly they learn without him. "That way the guys get to learn teamwork, leadership and what it is like to have a small group in their command," said Steitz, who recently received US SAILING's Timothea Larr Award for his lifelong commitment to quality sailing education. "We feel it is extremely important to their development and experience for commanding a ship."

 

Advice Geoff Stagg, the Farr 40 Class organizer, would give Nimbus Blue? "It takes a lot of luck, the stars in alignment, being relaxed and having a good crew sailing together for a long time. "

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you cannot be serious....

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_concentration_camps - yes abstract i know but imagine that world

 

thank god for 'money grubbing lazy assed clowns' - i'm sure there are quite a few who would batter the shit out of you for that comment

spot on

Someone volunteering to kill people (which is what the military does at the end of the day) in return for cash bonuses isn't the same as the WWII draftees.

 

As for the 1st 2 paygrades qualifying for food-stamps, that's not what the recruters tell the recruits, and more importantly, that's not their motivation for signing up.

 

And if it wasn't about the $$, then why is it that recruitment focusses on the $$ and what the enlistee personally gains?

 

 

 

This properly belongs in GA or PA.

 

My response was to the comments that civillians have no business telling military what to do.

 

Those comments ALSO belong in GA and PA.

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Someone volunteering to kill people (which is what the military does at the end of the day) in return for cash bonuses isn't the same as the WWII draftees.

 

As for the 1st 2 paygrades qualifying for food-stamps, that's not what the recruters tell the recruits, and more importantly, that's not their motivation for signing up.

 

And if it wasn't about the $$, then why is it that recruitment focusses on the $$ and what the enlistee personally gains?

 

 

 

This properly belongs in GA or PA.

 

My response was to the comments that civillians have no business telling military what to do.

 

Those comments ALSO belong in GA and PA.

 

Dude you live in the wrong country.

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Dear VADM Fowler,

 

I realize that sub guys are sometimes a little slower to catch the drift, but might I suggest Sir that there is another storm brewing?

 

You are correct sir. Things had gotten a bit sloppy, people were soft and needed a kick start. This is a country at war and USNA officers will lead men and women into harms way. You navigated that storm well and many applaud your tightening of standards.

 

But there are also decisions that appear contrary to the mission and less than helpful.

 

Lets us ponder a few recent decisions shall we?

 

1.) Ordering Mids to eat all meals at the Academy under the theory of enhanced unit cohesion at a time when the USNA had neither the capability or budget to actually implement the order and feed them adequately as was widely reported. DUH! While...

 

2.) At the same time significantly restricting the summer offshore sail training for Midshipman. Many would argue this is a far better platform for teaching unit cohesion and leadership than a meal table. YA THINK!?! You argue it is not a fitting public image for Mids to be on a “summer cruise” while the country is at war. Ignoring the image of Mids playing croquet (and LOSING YET AGAIN), perhaps that simplistic view lacks an understanding rigors and learning that come from sailing a small boat, short handed, hundreds of miles at sea. Few who have experienced it would describe it as a “summer cruise.”

 

3.) Many have also noted the interesting juxtaposition of the Superintendent’s virtual elimination of small boat sail/seamanship training from the summer program while continuing to engage in crochet matches with the Jonnies as a tradition but lets continue to ignore that for its tradition afterall. But it still might be viewed as odd that the croquet tradition continues while seamanship programs are reduced and the Herndon climb (perhaps THE most loved tradition of the USNA) was under fire to be cancelled by the Superintendent. Thankfully it seems that sanity rules the the order came down to let the climb happen - unchanged - as it should.

 

4.) There is more coming...

 

Sir, please reverse course and/or go back to subs.

 

Respectfully submitted,

 

JOMBP

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