Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

thumper

Rule question windward mark

Recommended Posts

Looking for a little help here...

 

Windward mark - boat 1 clear ahead enters two boat length circle set up for a gybe set. Boat 2 slightly over stood coming in with speed. Boat one completes gybe, transom has not cleared the mark and boat 2 yells for room as starboard boat, doesn't get it and files protest.

 

What's the verdict?

post-15064-1208112499_thumb.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Looking for a little help here...

 

Windward mark - boat 1 clear ahead enters two boat length circle set up for a gybe set. Boat 2 slightly over stood coming in with speed. Boat one completes gybe, transom has not cleared the mark and boat 2 yells for room as starboard boat, doesn't get it and files protest.

 

What's the verdict?

post-15064-1208112499_thumb.jpg

 

18 ROUNDING AND PASSING MARKS AND OBSTRUCTIONS

In rule 18, room is room for an inside boat to round or pass between an

outside boat and a mark or obstruction, including room to tack or gybe

when either is a normal part of the manoeuvre.

18.1 When This Rule Applies

Rule 18 applies when boats are about to round or pass a mark they are

required to leave on the same side, or an obstruction on the same side,

until they have passed it. However, it does not apply

(a) at a starting mark surrounded by navigable water or at its anchor

line from the time the boats are approaching them to start until

they have passed them, or

(B) while the boats are on opposite tacks, either on a beat to windward

or when the proper course for one of them, but not both, to

round or pass the mark or obstruction is to tack.

Part 2 WHEN BOATS MEET 18.1

12

18.2 Giving Room; Keeping Clear

(a) OVERLAPPED – BASIC RULE

When boats are overlapped the outside boat shall give the inside

boat room to round or pass the mark or obstruction, and if the

inside boat has right of way the outside boat shall also keep clear.

Other parts of rule 18 contain exceptions to this rule.

(B) OVERLAPPED AT THE ZONE

If boats were overlapped before either of them reached the twolength

zone and the overlap is broken after one of them has reached

it, the boat that was on the outside shall continue to give the other

boat room. If the outside boat becomes clear astern or overlapped

inside the other boat, she is not entitled to room and shall keep clear.

© NOT OVERLAPPED AT THE ZONE

If a boat was clear ahead at the time she reached the two-length

zone, the boat clear astern shall thereafter keep clear. If the boat

clear astern becomes overlapped outside the other boat, she shall

also give the inside boat room. If the boat clear astern becomes

overlapped inside the other boat, she is not entitled to room. If the

boat that was clear ahead passes head to wind, rule 18.2© no

longer applies and remains inapplicable.

(d) CHANGING COURSE TO ROUND OR PASS

When after the starting signal rule 18 applies between two boats

and the right-of-way boat is changing course to round or pass a

mark, rule 16 does not apply between her and the other boat.

(e) OVERLAP RIGHTS

If there is reasonable doubt that a boat obtained or broke an

overlap in time, it shall be presumed that she did not. If the outside

boat is unable to give room when an overlap begins, rules

18.2(a) and 18.2(B) do not apply.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Boat 1 in the right, boat 2 in the wrong. Flick 2 if they caused 1 to change course/caused a collision.

 

Your rights as the inside boat end if your BOW passes through the wind, not the stern.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Should cover it. Boat two is required to keep clear. P/S is a section A rule. Rule 18 take precedent.

 

18.2 Giving Room; Keeping Clear

© NOT OVERLAPPED AT THE ZONE

If a boat was clear ahead at the time she reached the two-length

zone, the boat clear astern shall thereafter keep clear. If the boat

clear astern becomes overlapped outside the other boat, she shall

also give the inside boat room. If the boat clear astern becomes

overlapped inside the other boat, she is not entitled to room. If the

boat that was clear ahead passes head to wind, rule 18.2© no

longer applies and remains inapplicable.

(d) CHANGING COURSE TO ROUND OR PASS

When after the starting signal rule 18 applies between two boats

and the right-of-way boat is changing course to round or pass a

mark, rule 16 does not apply between her and the other boat.

 

Edit...crap I'm slow!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Geez I'm out of touch since when was there a two boat circle at a windward mark?

 

Some 30 years. We were using this in college.

 

Your rights as the inside boat end if your BOW passes through the wind, not the stern.

 

ONLY AT THE WEATHER MARK. You can do what you want at the leeward mark as long as there is a need to do this. I was once confronted by a J-24 tacking and gybing inside 2BL at the leeward mark because there was a pileup of boats ahead and the boat had nowhere to go except to spin.

 

Perfectly legal.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

All that rule-quoting, and no one quoted the important part...

 

SECTION C

AT MARKS AND OBSTRUCTIONS

To the extent that a Section C rule conflicts with a rule in Section A or B, the

Section C rule takes precedence.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Not only is boat #2 not entitled to inside room or have any rights as a starboard tack boat they must also give boat #1 room to gybe or round and if it could be proven (through an old protest record or etc) that they knew they were not entitled to room then they may have broken Rule #2 "fair sailing" by hailing for room when they knew they were not entitled to room. As long as #1 entered the 2BL circle w/o an overlap and completes thier gybe also inside that 2BL circle #2 is screwed.

 

Sounds like #2 thought #1 was going to bear away and not gybe so #2 sticks thier bow in there and then can't get out from between #1 and the mark so they hailed starboard to try to get #1 out of there.

 

Question: If #1 does some insurance circles and later finds #2 knew they (#2) had no rights are they (#1) entitled to any kind of redress?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Not only is boat #2 not entitled to inside room or have any rights as a starboard tack boat they must also give boat #1 room to gybe or round and if it could be proven (through an old protest record or etc) that they knew they were not entitled to room then they may have broken Rule #2 "fair sailing" by hailing for room when they knew they were not entitled to room. As long as #1 entered the 2BL circle w/o an overlap and completes thier gybe also inside that 2BL circle #2 is screwed.

 

Sounds like #2 thought #1 was going to bear away and not gybe so #2 sticks thier bow in there and then can't get out from between #1 and the mark so they hailed starboard to try to get #1 out of there.

 

Question: If #1 does some insurance circles and later finds #2 knew they (#2) had no rights are they (#1) entitled to any kind of redress?

 

Redress? No. It was their choice to do the circles.

 

Protest? Unless they called protest, probably not either unless there was actual contact.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Why do folks think they are entitled to redress for things that happen on the water that are outside the control of the RC?

 

Because sometimes they are. Just not in the situation described.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Why do folks think they are entitled to redress for things that happen on the water that are outside the control of the RC?

Cuz they think that redress is for anything "unfair" that happens.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I don't think that is true. Redress is for when a competitor is put at a disadvantage by the actions of the RC.

Na, lots of reasons that aren't the fault of the RC, first thing that comes to mind is plucking sombody else's crew out of the water. I broke a big rule once and requested redress to not be thrown out. Granted.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Geez I'm out of touch since when was there a two boat circle at a windward mark?

 

You are out of touch since at least the fifties. I don't go back further than that.

 

But certainly in the fifties the inside port boat on a post rounding could coninue past the mark while the outside port leeward boat gave room and teh extablishment of an inside overlap before two boat lengths was critical to obtaining that room cetainly teh newer rules from 1988 or 1992 whenever that all ahppened added new meanings to teh two boat length circle when it became the rule that boats tacking to starboard inside teh two boat length circle could not forcet those already on starboard to sail above close hauled to keep clear.

 

yes...You are out of touch.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have an addition to this question.

 

I was racing Colgate 26's today with a offset, we rounded the mark fine and headed for the offset on starboard. Another boat headed far up and then gybed over to port coming down on us. I don't think we had an overlap (but then again the offset was pretty close to the windward mark). They started yelling no room, we started yelling starboard.

 

How do the rules apply to an offset as opposed to a windward mark?

 

Thanks.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Looking for a little help here...

 

Windward mark - boat 1 clear ahead enters two boat length circle set up for a gybe set. Boat 2 slightly over stood coming in with speed. Boat one completes gybe, transom has not cleared the mark and boat 2 yells for room as starboard boat, doesn't get it and files protest.

 

What's the verdict?

post-15064-1208112499_thumb.jpg

 

 

Please understand I am not trying to be a jerkwad with this reply...

 

My verdict?? You really ought to spend an evening or two just reading the rules and considering their meaning. Sitting with some sailing friends and chatting about situations and the rules would not hurt either. THE RULES ARE THE GAME.The rules are not all that tough to understand. In fact, if you have to ask this question, you are not going to be able to compete at full speed in lots of situations...because you simply don't know the game well enough to play it.

 

I think you would have lots more fun, and others would have lots more fun playing with you, if you simply took the time to study figure out the game.

 

Using cheap shit trickery and rules is bad manners and no fun for anybody...On the other hand, using the rules to your advantadge is a huge part of winning any game.

 

Study the rules..it is just like this website> A way to do something having to do with sailing when you can't actually be sailing.

 

 

 

In the decribed situation, #2 is out if he touches the mark or the #1 boat or causes the number 1 boat to decide to "save himself by getting out of the way."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Boat 1 clear ahead (not obvious from the diagram) is entitled to room, including room to gybe if she does so while in the two boat length zone. Protest disallowed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I have an addition to this question.

 

I was racing Colgate 26's today with a offset, we rounded the mark fine and headed for the offset on starboard. Another boat headed far up and then gybed over to port coming down on us. I don't think we had an overlap (but then again the offset was pretty close to the windward mark). They started yelling no room, we started yelling starboard.

 

How do the rules apply to an offset as opposed to a windward mark?

 

Thanks.

 

18.1b says that 18 does not apply to boats on opposite tacks on a beat to windward...

 

Thes is not a beat to windward, so rule 18 applies normally. When the boat ahead reaches her 2 boatlength zone, if there's a boat overlapped inside her, she has to give the inside boat room to round.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I don't think that is true. Redress is for when a competitor is put at a disadvantage by the actions of the RC.

 

No. First of all, a competitor can be put at a disadvantage by the actions of the RC without it constituting grounds for redress (e.g., a competitor who sails well in strong breeze is put at a disadvantage when the RC decides not to run a start in heavy air; but no one would argue this would be grounds for redress)

 

If you look in the rules (Rule 62), you'll see that among other things, a competitor can be granted redress for damages caused by another boat's breach of a rule, or to compensate for giving aid to another boat or sailor in danger...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I don't really understand the 'mast abeam' rule can anyone explain it to me.

 

There is no more "mast abeam" rule. It got taken out about 10 years ago when they re-wrote the rules.

 

Under the OLD rules, When the helmsman "in his normal sailing position" was "abeam" of the leeward boat's mast, The leeward boat lost its right to luff above its "proper course".

 

 

The idea under the old rules was to provide a mechanism for a faster boat that was overtaking a slower boat to establish its rights to sail its course. Without the "mast abeam" rule, a leeward boat could wait until the overtaking boat had its keel ahead of the leeward boat's keel and luff hard. Because of how boats pivot, the windward boat could do nothing to stay clear even though it was clearly sailing the better race.

 

BUT since they got rid of "overtaking boat" rules they no longer needed the "mast abeam" rules. And instead they have the "room" rule and the issue of whether the overlap was established from "clear astern".

 

Under the new rules, the luff curtails because the leeward boat eventually gets to the point where it cannot luff the weather boat up anymore because the weather boat either

  • is head to wind
  • cannot turn closer to the wind without the stern swinging out and touching leeward.

at this point L cannot luff W any higher.

 

Note also that the establishment of overlap ONLY applies to boats on the same tack/gybe.

So you can get gybing duels to break and establish overlaps:

  • W, on STB, starts passing L about 1 BL apart going DDW.
  • Once overlap is established, L can Luff W as high as it wants to Because the overlap was establish "from astern"
  • W then gybes her boom putting her on Port and holds course for 3 seconds (even medium size keelboats can do this without gybing or collapsing the kite)
  • W then immediatlely gybes back to STB. Overlap has now been re-established but from abeam, not astern. L can no longer luff W higher than L's proper course.
  • L then drives hard to leeward (while preventing the boom out to remain on the same gybe) swinging the stern so that the 90deg plane goes ahead of W's bow - Overlap is now re-established from astern.
  • Rinse, Lather and Repeat

And for those who think this isn't realistic, I once went through probably half a dozen cycles of this as W in J-24s before I managed to get far enough forward that L could not practically break overlap.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The key here is boat 1 has rights until she is clear of the mark. i.e. her stern passes the mark headed towards the leeward mark. It doesn't matter that she gybed at the windward mark. If she took the penalty turns, it's cuz she didn't know the rules. If boat 2 hit the mark or #1, she would only be out of the race if she caused significant damage to 1. Redress doesn't apply at all. m.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I loved mast abeam! I use to use it while driving on the freeway when not sailing! :lol:

 

ducky

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You guys rock... in one afternoon a lot of information, thanks! It is as we had thought.

 

As for the back story, no we did not do turns, no we did not go to the room. Boat in last place was boat number 2 and by taking arbitration and heading home for a BBQ seemed like a better idea since the results didn't change. I was just chapped, that's all. It was the first time that I've ever lost my cool with another sailor at the bar.

 

Boat 2 from what I understand believes that they had an overlap which was not physically possible since at the time we called "no room" they were 1-2 boat lengths behind. If they had been the inside boat with an overlap a collision would've have been unavoidable as we gybed. Both boats were Melges 24's in 10-12kts of breeze.

 

Thanks again and hopefully the owner of boat number 2 has a chance to read this and pulls his head out of his arse and goes out to have some fun instead of having a chip on his shoulder!

 

thump

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I don't think that is true. Redress is for when a competitor is put at a disadvantage by the actions of the RC.

 

Cometitors who have stood by to render assistance while another competitor recovered a MOB have been granted

redress for the time they remained on station.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
You guys rock... in one afternoon a lot of information, thanks! It is as we had thought.

 

As for the back story, no we did not do turns, no we did not go to the room. Boat in last place was boat number 2 and by taking arbitration and heading home for a BBQ seemed like a better idea since the results didn't change. I was just chapped, that's all. It was the first time that I've ever lost my cool with another sailor at the bar.

 

Boat 2 from what I understand believes that they had an overlap which was not physically possible since at the time we called "no room" they were 1-2 boat lengths behind. If they had been the inside boat with an overlap a collision would've have been unavoidable as we gybed. Both boats were Melges 24's in 10-12kts of breeze.

 

Thanks again and hopefully the owner of boat number 2 has a chance to read this and pulls his head out of his arse and goes out to have some fun instead of having a chip on his shoulder!

 

thump

 

Send him this.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
You guys rock... in one afternoon a lot of information, thanks! It is as we had thought.

 

As for the back story, no we did not do turns, no we did not go to the room. Boat in last place was boat number 2 and by taking arbitration and heading home for a BBQ seemed like a better idea since the results didn't change. I was just chapped, that's all. It was the first time that I've ever lost my cool with another sailor at the bar.

 

Boat 2 from what I understand believes that they had an overlap which was not physically possible since at the time we called "no room" they were 1-2 boat lengths behind. If they had been the inside boat with an overlap a collision would've have been unavoidable as we gybed. Both boats were Melges 24's in 10-12kts of breeze.

 

Thanks again and hopefully the owner of boat number 2 has a chance to read this and pulls his head out of his arse and goes out to have some fun instead of having a chip on his shoulder!

 

thump

 

Uh...does boat 2 know they would have to be INSIDE and overlapped for an overlap to be helpful to them?

In this situation, outside boat's got nuthin unless they're clear ahead. From the diagram, they've a ways to go for that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I loved mast abeam! I use to use it while driving on the freeway when not sailing! :lol:

 

ducky

 

Yep, but I've been a little unclear as to whether you can still use it on the road, parking lots, etc. since they axed it. Good thing rule 18 still applies everywhere, including at the big box store when you are pushing one of those flat carts with the one wayward wheel.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Yep, but I've been a little unclear as to whether you can still use it on the road, parking lots, etc. since they axed it. Good thing rule 18 still applies everywhere, including at the big box store when you are pushing one of those flat carts with the one wayward wheel.

so does the wayward wheel's angle determine Port and Stb?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I don't really understand the 'mast abeam' rule can anyone explain it to me.

 

 

I need help with "full and by".

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I have an addition to this question.

 

I was racing Colgate 26's today with a offset, we rounded the mark fine and headed for the offset on starboard. Another boat headed far up and then gybed over to port coming down on us. I don't think we had an overlap (but then again the offset was pretty close to the windward mark). They started yelling no room, we started yelling starboard.

 

How do the rules apply to an offset as opposed to a windward mark?

 

Thanks.

 

On the original question, the gybe is part of the normal mark rounding, so #1 is good until their stern passes the mark (and a little bit further -- new RoW yacht shall give time and room for the new burdened yacht to keep clear and all that jazz).

 

I think the offset is an extension of the windward mark, no? So you haven't cleared the ww mark until your stern clears the offset... in that case, if you were clear ahead 2 BL from the WW mark then you were good all the way through.

 

That UK Halsey site is very good. It covers a gybe set situation as well. No offset marks, though.

 

Saw a boat in very light air take advantage of another having a bit of a CF by passing one boat at the ww mark on the outside and then another (having the CF) on the inside at the offset. Interesting. No protests -- everyone was too surprised, I think.

 

I need help with "full and by".

 

Full and By

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
so does the wayward wheel's angle determine Port and Stb?

That's a ruse, like holding the boom out to the windward side and claiming you were on starboard.

 

Send him this.

 

That's the one.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Uh...does boat 2 know they would have to be INSIDE and overlapped for an overlap to be helpful to them?

In this situation, outside boat's got nuthin unless they're clear ahead. From the diagram, they've a ways to go for that.

 

If "Room!" doesn't work, I like to throw out "Proper course, please!" now and then.

 

At WalMart they just sort of look at you when you try anything more sophisticated than "mine!"

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
If "Room!" doesn't work, I like to throw out "Proper course, please!" now and then.

 

At WalMart they just sort of look at you when you try anything more sophisticated than "mine!"

 

...And I thought it was just Costco.

 

Ah, proper course...my favorite! Is there a more frequently misunderstood term in all the rules?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On the original question, the gybe is part of the normal mark rounding, so #1 is good until their stern passes the mark (and a little bit further -- new RoW yacht shall give time and room for the new burdened yacht to keep clear and all that jazz).

 

I think the offset is an extension of the windward mark, no? So you haven't cleared the ww mark until your stern clears the offset... in that case, if you were clear ahead 2 BL from the WW mark then you were good all the way through.That UK Halsey site is very good. It covers a gybe set situation as well. No offset marks, though.

 

Saw a boat in very light air take advantage of another having a bit of a CF by passing one boat at the ww mark on the outside and then another (having the CF) on the inside at the offset. Interesting. No protests -- everyone was too surprised, I think.

Full and By

 

Where do folks get this sort of stuff? Does the offset mark have a required side? Yes. Then is it a mark? Yes Does it have it's own 2BL zone? Yes Is it the windward mark? No Can a boat be inside and entitled to room at the windward mark and outside and not entitled to room at the offset mark? Yes. When one gets to the offset mark, has one passed the windward mark? Yes Assuming the offset is more than 2BLs from the windward mark, three sets of rule situations in play. Rounding the weather mark (RRS 18), between the two marks (all other rules) and rounding the offset (RRS 18 again).

 

The UK site is good but no way they would call the offset an extension of the windward mark.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Where do folks get this sort of stuff? Does the offset mark have a required side? Yes. Then is it a mark? Yes Does it have it's own 2BL zone? Yes Is it the windward mark? No Can a boat be inside and entitled to room at the windward mark and outside and not entitled to room at the offset mark? Yes. When one gets to the offset mark, has one passed the windward mark? Yes Assuming the offset is more than 2BLs from the windward mark, three sets of rule situations in play. Rounding the weather mark (RRS 18), between the two marks (all other rules) and rounding the offset (RRS 18 again).

 

The UK site is good but no way they would call the offset an extension of the windward mark.

 

Offset mark is in essence a reaching mark, since it is on a "free leg" of the course.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Looking for a little help here...

 

Windward mark - boat 1 clear ahead enters two boat length circle set up for a gybe set. Boat 2 slightly over stood coming in with speed. Boat one completes gybe, transom has not cleared the mark and boat 2 yells for room as starboard boat, doesn't get it and files protest.

 

What's the verdict?

post-15064-1208112499_thumb.jpg

 

It's quite clear your buddy here didn't have a right in the world but why did he feel compelled to protest? Did he pile into the mark? Did he have to bear off hard behind you? Or was he just chuffed that his little plan to get inside you didn't come together?

 

I've used the same maneuver to get inside somebody that I think maybe about to have having a bad rounding, their crew are unclear on what doing a gybe set entails or swung wide enough to open a door of opportunity for me. It's the sailboat racing equivalent of a good ole pantsing!!!

 

Done right will at least get you around one competitor and with any luck at all there might a boat or two outside him as well plus boats coming in behind maybe forced to bear off behind the whole hairball. The outside boat always seems oddly surprised to see you now that your inside and camped on their air. If they are having a bad set this certainly doesn't help that along particularly either- seems to cause yelling and shit. And needless to say your crew work has to be pretty much flawless if you have any hope of pulling this off. You'll likely being doing a full on bat turn to round the mark then step into the gybe; which isn't easy at the best of times.

 

However, never try this at home kids unless there is a very high probability that you can make it work. Because, if it all goes pear shaped, you have ZERO RIGHTS! And for Chrisse sake let your crew know what your up to and that the plan could change at the last second. It does take nerves of steel and full commitment once you've pushed the go button. There is no rewind.

 

It's rare day when the planets align just so to use this and it can be a thing of beauty. But if you screw it up you've probably thrown your race away.

 

If you try this and it doesn't work for you please feel free to contact Bubba in our customer service dept. I'm sure you'll receive his deepest commiseration!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On the original question, the gybe is part of the normal mark rounding, so #1 is good until their stern passes the mark (and a little bit further -- new RoW yacht shall give time and room for the new burdened yacht to keep clear and all that jazz).

 

Because #1 entered clear ahead she becomes RoW boat until BOTH boats have passed the mark. RRS 18.1: Rule 18 applies ...... until they (plural) have passed it. She's not restricted by rule 16.1 (as long as she changing course to round the mark) because that rule is switched of by 18.2(d).

Once 18.2© is on, it becomes the RoW rule overriding 10,11,12 and 13. And as long the clear ahead boat doesn't pass head to wind it stays on, until both have passed the mark.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
.......

Note also that the establishment of overlap ONLY applies to boats on the same tack/gybe.

So you can get gybing duels to break and establish overlaps:

  • W, on STB, starts passing L about 1 BL apart going DDW.
  • Once overlap is established, L can Luff W as high as it wants to Because the overlap was establish "from astern"
  • W then gybes her boom putting her on Port and holds course for 3 seconds (even medium size keelboats can do this without gybing or collapsing the kite)
  • W then immediatlely gybes back to STB. Overlap has now been re-established but from abeam, not astern. L can no longer luff W higher than L's proper course.
  • L then drives hard to leeward (while preventing the boom out to remain on the same gybe) swinging the stern so that the 90deg plane goes ahead of W's bow - Overlap is now re-established from astern.
  • Rinse, Lather and Repeat

And for those who think this isn't realistic, I once went through probably half a dozen cycles of this as W in J-24s before I managed to get far enough forward that L could not practically break overlap.

 

 

Sorry this is not right. RRS 17.1 says that if the overlap is established from astern within 2 of her hull length to leward she shall not sail above her proper course.

 

17 ON THE SAME TACK; PROPER COURSE

17.1 If a boat clear astern becomes overlapped within two of her hull lengths

to leeward of a boat on the same tack, she shall not sail above her proper

course while they remain overlapped within that distance, unless in

doing so she promptly sails astern of the other boat. This rule does not

apply if the overlap begins while the windward boat is required by rule

13 to keep clear.

17.2 Except on a beat to windward, while a boat is less than two of her hull

lengths from a leeward boat or a boat clear astern steering a course to

leeward of her, she shall not sail below her proper course unless she

gybes.

 

So when W sails over the top of L, L can luff W. When W establishes an overlap by doing 2 gybes L is still free to Luff.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Sue, remember we're about to round a mark here.

you obviously haven't been paying attention to the various tangents in the thread, koj... ;)

 

which is what sue (i believe) was referring to...

 

/c

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Sue, remember we're about to round a mark here.

 

 

go back and read what I was replying to , There is no mark in the scenerio.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17.2 the most violated rule in the book.

 

 

not that it has anything to do with this question...

 

but 17.2 is being dropped from the new version of the rules which take effect in 2009.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Sorry this is not right. RRS 17.1 says that if the overlap is established from astern within 2 of her hull length to leward she shall not sail above her proper course.

 

17 ON THE SAME TACK; PROPER COURSE

17.1 If a boat clear astern becomes overlapped within two of her hull lengths

to leeward of a boat on the same tack, she shall not sail above her proper

course while they remain overlapped within that distance, unless in

doing so she promptly sails astern of the other boat. This rule does not

apply if the overlap begins while the windward boat is required by rule

13 to keep clear.

17.2 Except on a beat to windward, while a boat is less than two of her hull

lengths from a leeward boat or a boat clear astern steering a course to

leeward of her, she shall not sail below her proper course unless she

gybes.

 

So when W sails over the top of L, L can luff W. When W establishes an overlap by doing 2 gybes L is still free to Luff.

 

oops you are right. I forgot the one extra piece that after gybing I did a quick bow up to have my stern plane cross in front of the bow of L. Thanks for the reminder.

 

Doh. Age starting to play tricks of memory

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
There is no more "mast abeam" rule. It got taken out about 10 years ago when they re-wrote the rules.

 

Under the OLD rules, When the helmsman "in his normal sailing position" was "abeam" of the leeward boat's mast, The leeward boat lost its right to luff above its "proper course".

The idea under the old rules was to provide a mechanism for a faster boat that was overtaking a slower boat to establish its rights to sail its course. Without the "mast abeam" rule, a leeward boat could wait until the overtaking boat had its keel ahead of the leeward boat's keel and luff hard. Because of how boats pivot, the windward boat could do nothing to stay clear even though it was clearly sailing the better race.

 

BUT since they got rid of "overtaking boat" rules they no longer needed the "mast abeam" rules. And instead they have the "room" rule and the issue of whether the overlap was established from "clear astern".

 

Under the new rules, the luff curtails because the leeward boat eventually gets to the point where it cannot luff the weather boat up anymore because the weather boat either

  • is head to wind
  • cannot turn closer to the wind without the stern swinging out and touching leeward.

at this point L cannot luff W any higher.

 

Note also that the establishment of overlap ONLY applies to boats on the same tack/gybe.

So you can get gybing duels to break and establish overlaps:

  • W, on STB, starts passing L about 1 BL apart going DDW.
  • Once overlap is established, L can Luff W as high as it wants to Because the overlap was establish "from astern"
  • W then gybes her boom putting her on Port and holds course for 3 seconds (even medium size keelboats can do this without gybing or collapsing the kite)
  • W then immediatlely gybes back to STB. Overlap has now been re-established but from abeam, not astern. L can no longer luff W higher than L's proper course.
  • L then drives hard to leeward (while preventing the boom out to remain on the same gybe) swinging the stern so that the 90deg plane goes ahead of W's bow - Overlap is now re-established from astern.
  • Rinse, Lather and Repeat

And for those who think this isn't realistic, I once went through probably half a dozen cycles of this as W in J-24s before I managed to get far enough forward that L could not practically break overlap.

BB, after you've been around here long enough you'll recognize when someone is deep-fa-sea-fishing. it is a form of humor akin to sarcasm or facetiousness. this is a response to seamouse's post on the 2BL.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
BB, after you've been around here long enough you'll recognize when someone is deep-fa-sea-fishing. it is a form of humor akin to sarcasm or facetiousness. this is a response to seamouse's post on the 2BL.

Nah

I've been playing online for some 30 years now and in SA for about 1/2 a decade. I still get caught by that sort of deep-fa-sea-fishing. I prefer F2F, I find the online realm pretty limiting.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Where do folks get this sort of stuff? Does the offset mark have a required side? Yes. Then is it a mark? Yes Does it have it's own 2BL zone? Yes Is it the windward mark? No Can a boat be inside and entitled to room at the windward mark and outside and not entitled to room at the offset mark? Yes. When one gets to the offset mark, has one passed the windward mark? Yes Assuming the offset is more than 2BLs from the windward mark, three sets of rule situations in play. Rounding the weather mark (RRS 18), between the two marks (all other rules) and rounding the offset (RRS 18 again).

 

The UK site is good but no way they would call the offset an extension of the windward mark.

 

So then how does it work when the offset is within 2 BL of the WW mark?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
So then how does it work when the offset is within 2 BL of the WW mark?

 

In practice this should not be an issue. No self-respecting RC would put the two marks that close together. But if they did then it's still a second mark though the outside overlapped boat at the windward mark would have no opportunity to break the overlap in time and would have to give the inside boat room at the offset regardless of whether the overlap still existed.

 

I guess in this case you could "think" of the offset as though it was a continuation of the windward mark since at some point within the 2BL zone of the windward mark, the boats are also within the 2BL zone of the offset though this is not how it would be presented in a hearing. Two marks, two 2BL zones, etc.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
for all you need to know from a week ago. (Wonder where this thread came from?)

 

Courtesy of Sail World.

 

yah, i could have sworn this was deja vu

 

was it also posted somewhere else - main page or that other daily email newsletter?

 

lamps

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
In practice this should not be an issue. No self-respecting RC would put the two marks that close together. But if they did then it's still a second mark though the outside overlapped boat at the windward mark would have no opportunity to break the overlap in time and would have to give the inside boat room at the offset regardless of whether the overlap still existed.

 

I guess in this case you could "think" of the offset as though it was a continuation of the windward mark since at some point within the 2BL zone of the windward mark, the boats are also within the 2BL zone of the offset though this is not how it would be presented in a hearing. Two marks, two 2BL zones, etc.

 

When does Rule 18 begin to apply to the offset? Can boats be "about to round" the offset before they've rounded the windward mark?

 

If that answer is yes, then the 2BL circle would seem to start just before the boats reach the windward mark, and room for the offset would be established at that point, not at the 2BL circle for the weather mark.

 

If that answer is no, and 18 doesn't begin to apply to the offset, the inside boat when the boats reach the offset is entitled to room under 18.2(a) regardless of when the overlap is established (unless of course the boats sail beyond 2BL after the weather mark, but before rounding the offset).

 

Interesting question, although unlikely to arise, unless someone drags the windward mark over toward the offset....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
When does Rule 18 begin to apply to the offset? Can boats be "about to round" the offset before they've rounded the windward mark?

 

If that answer is yes, then the 2BL circle would seem to start just before the boats reach the windward mark, and room for the offset would be established at that point, not at the 2BL circle for the weather mark.

 

If that answer is no, and 18 doesn't begin to apply to the offset, the inside boat when the boats reach the offset is entitled to room under 18.2(a) regardless of when the overlap is established (unless of course the boats sail beyond 2BL after the weather mark, but before rounding the offset).

 

Interesting question, although unlikely to arise, unless someone drags the windward mark over toward the offset....

 

"About to round" is dependent on boats and prevailing conditions. 18knts flat water in 49ers "about to round" starts about 6 BL out, so in theory, an overstood boat reaching in could be "about to round" before it has completed rounding the "weather mark".

 

Nor can you consider the two marks as "one mark" for purposes of overlap, because I might get my nose in below the lead boat as they round the weather mark and because the offset is slightly skewed to weather Ahead doesn't close the door on Overlap. If the offset then is 3 BL away from the weather mark, then at the offset A has to give O room to gybe or set inside.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
When does Rule 18 begin to apply to the offset? Can boats be "about to round" the offset before they've rounded the windward mark?

 

No. Prior to rounding the windward mark the offset is not a mark of the course and has no required side. You can even hit it and it wouldn't matter. So the 2BL zone starts from which ever is the shorter distance - 2 boat lengths from the offset or if the windward mark is less than 2 boat lengths from the offset, the windward mark.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

And lets not forget 18 (e):

 

(e) OVERLAP RIGHTS

If there is reasonable doubt that a boat obtained or broke an

overlap in time, it shall be presumed that she did not. If the outside

boat is unable to give room when an overlap begins, rules

18.2(a) and 18.2.b do not apply.

 

So just getting the overlap isn't the end of the game, it only let's us know what we're going to be talking about next....

 

But if you're planning to rely on a panel of judges to get you off the hook when you establish a late overlap and then crash into a pack of boats that can't give you room, well... maybe you'd better think again.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
And lets not forget 18 (e):

 

(e) OVERLAP RIGHTS

If there is reasonable doubt that a boat obtained or broke an

overlap in time, it shall be presumed that she did not. If the outside

boat is unable to give room when an overlap begins, rules

18.2(a) and 18.2.b do not apply.

 

So just getting the overlap isn't the end of the game, it only let's us know what we're going to be talking about next....

 

But if you're planning to rely on a panel of judges to get you off the hook when you establish a late overlap and then crash into a pack of boats that can't give you room, well... maybe you'd better think again.

 

Well put mate.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
There is no more "mast abeam" rule. It got taken out about 10 years ago when they re-wrote the rules.

 

 

You're joking....

 

 

Anyway, mast-abeam- campaign aside, take a deep breath everyone and repeat slowly

 

" I like Protesting, Protesting is Good. Protesting is rightful and Protesting works. I will Protest. I am not afraid of the little red flag and the little dim room. These people are fellow competitors, not the enemy. I keep sharp objects in a safe place I cannot readily access under stress on topsides"

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
When does Rule 18 begin to apply to the offset? Can boats be "about to round" the offset before they've rounded the windward mark?

Boats can be "about to round or pass a mark" for a few more months, then it will be the 3BL and no more "about..."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
No. Prior to rounding the windward mark the offset is not a mark of the course and has no required side. You can even hit it and it wouldn't matter. So the 2BL zone starts from which ever is the shorter distance - 2 boat lengths from the offset or if the windward mark is less than 2 boat lengths from the offset, the windward mark.

 

I think this is reading something into 18 that is not there. If 18 begins to apply to the offset only after rounding the windward mark, an inside overlapped boat will be entitled to room at the offset regardless of when the overlap is established.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites