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rightroyalrage

TP52s - How long would they last in an offshore programme?

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How strong are the TP52's? Does one designer/builder have a reputation for building stronger boats than than the others?

 

I guess what im trying to drill down to is how long will the TP's that head away from the relative shelter of the med circuit last? They seem to be turning up in places as far away as Australia and to my mind the winter sailing here in the north (UK)and down in OZ may be putting the boats through a bit more?

 

regards,

 

 

RRR.

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tuffy just got one as well, and I hope he has some offshore races on his agenda. Hopefully he'll be able to give some input.

 

Don't know anything about UK or Euro builders, but I'd guess that Goetz, McConaghy, Cookson's would be up to the task.

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1st and 2nd generation TP52's would do just fine, and have. 3 generation TP52's are a little iffy, That’s when they really started pushing the envelope in the strength and durability of hulls, rigs, and other components.

 

Any boat that is a 3 generation + is more day racer orientated, they won’t hold up to the constant high wind and chop that you generally deal with in an offshore setting. I personally wouldn’t go offshore in a 3 generation + boat. The new racing platform of the TP52 is a grand prix day racer, Not built to go the long haul in an offshore setting.

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What generation are we in now?

Can you define what year, model and make (designer, builder) is considered a 3rd generation boat? "I personally wouldn’t go offshore in a 3 generation + boat".

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What generation are we in now?

Can you define what year, model and make (designer, builder) is considered a 3rd generation boat? "I personally wouldn't go offshore in a 3 generation + boat".

Well the first TP52 was built in 2001

 

Generation One

These offshore boats were designed specifically for the Transpac Race to Hawaii. The design criteria were they should be lightweight and simple, with maximum headroom below decks. Yassou, Rosebud, Lightwave, Flash, and Trader, fall into Generation One as being the boats built under the orginal design.

 

Generation Two 2003-2004

Beau Geste and Braveheart were some of the Generation Two boats, Still being built for the offshore scene, deck layout, rig, and build saw some changes to the original design. These boats were built in 2003-2004

 

Generation Three 2004-2005

Esmeralda, Brighstar, and Sjambok started pushing the envelope in technology and pushing boat design. Boats were being built to suit both distance and buoy racing as the creation of the Meditation Cup racing circuit started to form.

 

Generation Four 2005

Radical changes to the TP52 were starting to be seen with the new boats, deck hardware, hull shape, rig design.

Boats like Bribon, Cristabella, Valars, Patchs and Balearia were starting to be built exclusively to race in the calm waters of the Meditation racing circuit locations, with only limited inshore/offshore capabilities depending on the owner and builder. Morning Light and Mean Machine were built to be offshore and Med Cup racers.

 

Generation Five 2006

These are mainly the boats we are seeing today, boats specifically built to race in the grand prix circuit of the Med Cup. Built for speed and to maximize the efficiency of getting around a buoy racecourse. Boats in the likes of Astro, Bambakou, and Platoon. Again a few boats were still built to handle offshore racing Samba Pi Ti is an example.

 

Generation Six 2007

Doghouses are now almost completely disappearing in boats like Matador, rigging changing, hull shape is undergoing different designs with boats like Windquest, deck rigging and build of boats are getting skimpy and efficient, super fast grinders and winches are coming into a league of their own. Taking off weight were ever possible making hull and bulkhead thickness slimmer and slimmer. TP52's are becoming awesome course racing machines.

 

 

Generation Seven 2008

Have you seen the new Audi!?!

 

I think the 2008 Med Cup season starts May 12

 

 

 

Side note:

At the 2007 Annual Meeting the Members decided to give the go-ahead for researching a redefining of the TP52 Boxrule towards an even lighter, faster and more allround concept. The idea is to get rid of the majority of the current amount of internal ballast, define keel weight and size and get rid of IMS hullfile and inclining requirements and update in areas such as rigging and sailplan.

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Note to self. If you have a question about TP52's, ask that guy!

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Well my friend- our team is on our second TP52. Our first boat was generation 1 and very solid and trusty but as soon as the newer boats showed up it was blown out of the water. New boat is 2005 generation 4. It still has all the ring frames and structure in place that you would want to see- just far more refined. An added bonus is that because the boats were built with 'grand prix' racing in mind all the components are top of the line. Spars, winches, and deck layout our all much better quality than the old boat that was just meant for California coastal racing. As the interior is minimal it is taking some creativity on our part to get her ready for Hawaii and other distance stuff but it is coming together nicely. We just went sailing a few weeks ago in 25-30 and the boat was very stiff and did not make any groaning or creaking noises when tacked. So far so good! I say bring it. Incredible bang for the buck speed that you used to need a 70' for.

 

Motorcycle

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I believe the new owners of the 2 TPs that hit Sydney last year (Ragamuffin & Quest) were advised by FYD that if they wanted to do Hobart then they would have to do some serious strenthening mod's, I think they are both Gen 3 boats...

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Generation Seven 2008

Have you seen the new Audi!?!

 

she's the same (bar the patches 2007 transom mod) as artemis '07. same mold.

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As Sailor 90 described the generations, and having sailed offshore on one of the three FYD/Goetz generation 3 boats, I'd say they are solid offshore boats. You just need to adress the water ingress from the control lines. Nice clean decks=lots of below deck rigging=lots of bailing.

 

I'd be a little reluctant to take one of the newer med boats and put it into full time offshore use.

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tuffy just got one as well, and I hope he has some offshore races on his agenda. Hopefully he'll be able to give some input.

 

Don't know anything about UK or Euro builders, but I'd guess that Goetz, McConaghy, Cookson's would be up to the task.

 

Yup. Ours is a Cookson (1st-gen). The ring frames, backbone, decks etc on this thing are solid as a rock (and 12 keelbolts... but that's another rant). Built to go to Hawaii.

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Yup. Ours is a Cookson (1st-gen). The ring frames, backbone, decks etc on this thing are solid as a rock (and 12 keelbolts... but that's another rant). Built to go to Hawaii.

 

what was the original name?

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she's the same (bar the patches 2007 transom mod) as artemis '07. same mold.

 

Just because it came out of the same mold, does not mean that the layup schedules or core material

are the same.

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Forepeak from same...

 

 

Tuffie - Whats that piece of vertical spectra that goes from the roof to the floor.

 

I know the last name on it was T2.

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Tuffie - Whats that piece of vertical spectra that goes from the roof to the floor.

 

I know the last name on it was T2.

 

 

Staysail padeye?

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Tuffie - Whats that piece of vertical spectra that goes from the roof to the floor.

 

I know the last name on it was T2.

 

My guess would be a tie-rod for the staysail padeye.

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I know the last name on it was T2.

 

Ahhh thats right I forgot T2 got sold. It was the old Lightwave before heavy modifications, including a sprit, at NEB. Had a nice paint job too. Are you keeping the IRC optimizations?

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Forepeak from same...

 

That's just downright sexy. Is there a v-birth that can be put in for cruising?

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what was the original name?

 

Alta Vita --> Lightwave --> TSquared ---> FoxyLady IV (present)

 

My guess would be a tie-rod for the staysail padeye.

 

Correct!

 

Staysail padeye?

 

Bingo!

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That's just downright sexy. Is there a v-birth that can be put in for cruising?

 

Nope. Zero "cruising" comforts on this ride.

 

I just bought a 12v portable freezer for deliveries though... ha ha!

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Nope. Zero "cruising" comforts on this ride.

 

I just bought a 12v portable freezer for deliveries though... ha ha!

 

Well if it got a freezer it must be a racer / cruiser. Seriously it is a gorgeous boat and I wish you the best of luck with her.

 

^ (A special tuffie smile)

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Nope. Zero "cruising" comforts on this ride.

 

I just bought a 12v portable freezer for deliveries though... ha ha!

 

Tuffie, you're still here. The cone ratio had dropped precipitously, so was wondering.

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Tuffie, you're still here. The cone ratio had dropped precipitously, so was wondering.

 

Been v busy (vacation) for the past 10 days.

 

Too much cone can be bad for health.

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Been v busy (vacation) for the past 10 days.

 

Too much cone can be bad for health.

 

Does a vacation get to count as Very Busy?

 

Edit: Actually, never mind the chit-chat this is actually an interesting and informative sailing related thread (for a change) ... better be back on topic.

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Aft ring-frame on our TP...

I'm impressed with how nice that boat still looks given how old it is and how many owners its had.

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I'm impressed with how nice that boat still looks given how old it is and how many owners its had.

 

Thank you. The previous owner had a very capable full-time captain keep it in immaculate condition. We have no intention to do any differently.

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There's a new TP in Sydney down at Wollich and the word is its a Gen 4 and their setting it up to go offshore.

 

I wonder wot program it belongs to :blink:

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I wonder wot program it belongs to :blink:

 

After the show of strength of the 3 TP's at Geelong race week there was some noise that a couple owners where looking for a new yot :blink: But who know's as there was a roumor going around that there where 2 TP's on that ship that where headed here, anyone know where the other one went?

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There was one launched in New Zealand about 3 weeks ago, not sure whos or what it was called though

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The container terminal I work for in Long Beach CA just loaded the newer Glory on to a ship about a month ago headed for Sydney. By my estimates it should arrive there very shortly. Was a sweet looking ride.

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There's a new TP in Sydney down at Wollich and the word is its a Gen 4 and their setting it up to go offshore.

 

 

Is that the replacement for wot yot?

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Is that the replacement for wot yot?

 

Could be not sure, any one near Woollich with a Camera? I'd emagine they'd be getting right into putting a proder on it if she's going to race against the local Sydney fleet.

 

Any one know when the RP70 Limit will emerge from it's dark corner? Are they going to make hamo?

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Yes

 

Interesting. What happened to/where is prior WotYot going?

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Any luck some one will buy it so that there's a chance of getting 5 on the line.

 

There's a couple boat builders that speak a bit funny having there way with her (New Yot) in the yard at the moment should all be done in a week and a half.

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Interesting. What happened to/where is prior WotYot going?

he is already a fleet owner, so running 2 52's won't be an issue.

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Built to go to Hawaii.

Those were the days ;)

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he is already a fleet owner, so running 2 52's won't be an issue.

 

Won't the other one is for sale if not already sold and is in great nick.

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The answer to this thread is yes you can take TP 52's offshore and they make good race boats. The newer the boat the more structure you need to add (ie ring frame up the front) and the older the boat the less you need to add due to the fact that what they where optimised for has changed in teh last couple years.

 

The grinding pedestal is a great way to rid your self of a hang over during pre start too. That is if you don't lose your vegimite and toast on the way out the heads.

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he is already a fleet owner, so running 2 52's won't be an issue.

 

Whoa! Kind of a Frank Pong South in the making eh!

 

Sweet.

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So now we've got the generational differences established... what's on the market now that would be offshore suitable with minimum fuss?

 

The Bakewell-White Braveheart has been kicking around yachtworld for donkeys... what's it's story?

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So now we've got the generational differences established... what's on the market now that would be offshore suitable with minimum fuss?

 

All older-gen TPs are for sale Point.

 

We have an '02 Cookson in perfect condition - make an offer.

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All older-gen TPs are for sale Point.

 

We have an '02 Cookson in perfect condition - make an offer.

Mate, don't do that until after Samui!!! ;)

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Mate, don't do that until after Samui!!! ;)

 

Dude... you know what I mean.

 

Samui is safe as houses. Game on!

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Dude... you know what I mean.

 

Samui is safe as houses. Game on!

Can't wait!! Counting the sleeps...

 

When's the boat arrive at Chaweng???

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All older-gen TPs are for sale Point.

 

We have an '02 Cookson in perfect condition - make an offer.

 

Hmmm. How would I go with a 1988 Patrol, a 14 foot tinny and a few bottles of rum?

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There's a new TP in Sydney down at Wollich and the word is its a Gen 4 and their setting it up to go offshore.

 

 

It used to be the 2005 christabella, bought 2 years ago by UK guys. Renamed Fidessa Fastwave and IRC optimized. It won a couple of events over there. Wickedly fast when sailed well, though it struggled on the solent to get good crew.

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It used to be the 2005 christabella, bought 2 years ago by UK guys. Renamed Fidessa Fastwave and IRC optimized. It won a couple of events over there. Wickedly fast when sailed well, though it struggled on the solent to get good crew.

 

Is that the same Christabella that sustained significant structural damage after falling over on her storage cradle?

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Is that the same Christabella that sustained significant structural damage after falling over on her storage cradle?

 

yes - one of the old owners told me that people would stand on one side of the deck, feel it flex and assume that was the repaired side, when in fact the only part of it that was really strong was the repaired area

 

i could be wrong but i believe it was the first TP in the UK to be set up for offshore

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Newer gens are Nomex in underwater bow area. Simply can't take slamming loads of offshore. I wouldn't think about taking one out to HI or Bermuda.

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It used to be the 2005 christabella, bought 2 years ago by UK guys. Renamed Fidessa Fastwave and IRC optimized. It won a couple of events over there. Wickedly fast when sailed well, though it struggled on the solent to get good crew.

 

Nope not Christabella, unless there's two down there having some mods done. The one I saw isn't white (but that's not hard to change) and doesn't have that really ugly backstay block pod haging on the transom.

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Nope not Christabella, unless there's two down there having some mods done. The one I saw isn't white (but that's not hard to change) and doesn't have that really ugly backstay block pod haging on the transom.

the 07 Glory ..............

though I may be wrong.

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Imagine what she'll look like in all her Glory with a bowsprit

 

post-21597-1210031648_thumb.jpg

 

Great looking yacht. What harbour is that?

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Anybody know what the owner of Glory is getting/gotten now? Met him in Valencia a couple years ago. Nice guy, forgot his name though.

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Anybody know what the owner of Glory is getting/gotten now? Met him in Valencia a couple years ago. Nice guy, forgot his name though.

 

That is definitely Glory, built by John Buchan, brother of Bill and uncle of Carl of whom you may have heard. John has Yassou before he built Glory.

 

He is rumored to be interested in a nice little 77'er that's been hanging around the east coast.

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That is definitely Glory, built by John Buchan, brother of Bill and uncle of Carl of whom you may have heard. John has Yassou before he built Glory.

 

He is rumored to be interested in a nice little 77'er that's been hanging around the east coast.

That's him. 77'er eh? Interesting

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That is definitely Glory, built by John Buchan, brother of Bill and uncle of Carl of whom you may have heard. John has Yassou before he built Glory.

 

He is rumored to be interested in a nice little 77'er that's been hanging around the east coast.

 

Do you mean 75'er?

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The boat at woolwich is/was glory. It is the new wot somthing. I have photo's on my phone but no idea how to upload.

 

Old wot yot close to sold. No clue on who or where.

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so the theory is that newer generation boats, will totally smoke the slightly older boats - but the newer boats shouldnt really go long distance offshore unless substantially beefed up. What gen was the old wot yot? And is the new wot yot having a prodder fitted?

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Kinda silly to race a TP around here with out a prodder so Im' pretty certain that it will get one.

 

The last Wot Yot was the fisrt Glory ex Yasso (I believe, corect me if I'm wrong). Be nice to see it stay in Aus to do the main events and get the TP number up to 5 on the line

 

Windward: if you have blue tooth on your phone and blue tooth on your computer you can transfer it that way. Other than that you need the PC cable for your phone and you just access it like a removable disk.

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The last Wot Yot was the fisrt Glory ex Yasso (I believe, corect me if I'm wrong).

 

Yes, this is correct.

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Do you mean 75'er?

 

What 75'er is available? I only saw the 77'er

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Titan..what boat you talking about?

Alchemy. I thought Titan had already sold.

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Keep in mind that this years Med Cup has races outside the Med, in the Atlantic.

 

Hopefully this will produce a more all-around and stronger boat.

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Keep in mind that this years Med Cup has races outside the Med, in the Atlantic.

 

Hopefully this will produce a more all-around and stronger boat.

Yea the Med Cup has a race week in Portimao Algarve, Portugal - Aug 19-25

 

Could be interesting to see if they race when the chop kicks up and the breeze blows

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They still do coastel races in 25knts+. They are definatley more fragile than earlier designs, but they are not soft cock boats by any means. They still get up on the plane and smoke so they arnt just upper harbour day boats either!

 

In saying that. They new boats are nearly at the same level of AC in terms of weight, windage, and stiffness, so they are really really pushing the envelope!

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Note to self. If you have a question about TP52's, ask that guy!

Sailor 90... Thank You.

 

That was the best most concise summary I have seen yet. Really a fine explanation particularly with boat examples.

It looks to me like any one that want's to keep it tighter for a one design type Grand Prix racing needs to stick with FARR 40's as the level and volume of modifications in the TP 52 fleet makes it really complicated, and expensive...!

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Don't knock complicated and expensive...

 

When it comes to TP52's in the southern hemi it's pretty much guaranteed to be racing under IRC, unless a couple more lob into SE Asia and Australia and the owners agree to go box rule. Still most owners will be chasing Div 1 and Overall Honours so IRC it will be for a while me thinks.

 

There seems to be some variance in the IRC ratings for these beasties... obviously functions of sail area differences then rig, hull and ballast factors in, i guess, that kind of order. With the obvious trend being toward fitting a removable snotter, run bigger asso's, and a square head main if racing in the light stuff around the steamy equatorial regions.

 

I've seen a few advertising TP52 keel and IRC keel options, I'm assuming the IRC options stiffen the yacht, removing internal ballast etc... anyone with experience on the one yacht under both configs?

 

Some of the IRC numbers seen so far...

 

1.325 FfreeFire

1.330 Raggamuffin

1.330 Foxy Lady IV

1.332 Island Fling (ex-Emerelda)

1.336 Cougar II

1.336 Quest

1.338 Braveheart

1.340 Wot Yot I (ex-original Glory)

1.341 Panthera

1.345 Flash Glove

1.348 Strewth (ex-Trader)

1.351 Cockburn's Red

1.353 Ex-Valars ex-Caxia

1.355 Rio

1.361 Henri Lloyd Cutting Edge (ex-Patches I)

1.369 Ran (ex-Patches II)

 

I think the majority of the above are running with a bow snotter arrangement... any comments on the increase in SPA and changes to rating vs class legal pole set up?

 

Looking at an offshore boat the 2 spreader rig config has been recommended, would I be correct in assuming this would have benefits under IRC as well compared to a 3 spreader set up.

 

Obviously it's a slippery slope opening up these rocketship class boats to IRC mods, but it's an interesting petri dish to see how different features are treated under the rule.

 

Side note, how many TP52's have been produced so far, i'm counting something like 50 on my current info spreadsheets. It makes interesting reading looking back to 2003 when getting more than a half dozen on the line in the US was a big deal...

 

Any thoughts on why the class left such a vacuum in the USA when it migrated to the Med, surely the design box is just as valid now for blasting across the Pacific as it was but no many seem to be building for this if any?

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Great post Point.

 

I'm coming from the Foxy4 camp (read: fully IRC-ized when we got it) so talking about the transition from box rule-to-IRC is a bit pointless. Heck, our TP doesn't even have a pole track on the mast!

 

I can tell you this:

- our prod/sprit (snotter in your language?) is fixed and is no longer than the class pole - actually we can remove it but, like I said, no mast track so...

- our spins are all assy's and all roughly 250 sq m

- we have a new square-top main but are currently rated for the pinheads as nobody else is using squaretops in the Asia fleet and this could be very expensive on ww/lwd courses

 

Didn't know we had the lowest IRC rating (along w Rags). Anyone know what gen/build year Rags is?

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Cockburns/Red/John Maerricks II, whatever they're called are doing some offshores. They did the Cervantes Trophy, soming second (out of two) in IRC S0 to Chernikeef II (oops, did I mention that...). I don't know if they're doing the De Guingand or not.

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Cockburns/Red/John Maerricks II, whatever they're called are doing some offshores. They did the Cervantes Trophy, soming second (out of two) in IRC S0 to Chernikeef II (oops, did I mention that...). I don't know if they're doing the De Guingand or not.

 

They are. Got line honours in the Cervantes too.

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They did the Cervantes Trophy, soming second (out of two) in IRC S0 to Chernikeef II (oops, did I mention that...)

 

Every dog has it's day. I know which one I would rather be on.

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Alchemy. I thought Titan had already sold.

 

 

I heard that Alchemy is sold and going to the Pasific North West.

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I heard that Alchemy is sold and going to the Pasific North West.

 

Wait to see what is replacing it.

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Gen 4, 2005 I believe according to one of the earlier posts. Originally Pegasus, then Morning Light, now Ragamuffin.

 

Linky here: http://www.goetzboats.com/projects/race/pegasus52/index.html

 

Suprising for a relatively new boat to be on a low rating compared to the other TPs.

 

 

Yep Rags is a gen 4. We did alot of work to get the rating right.......... and it pays big time. As the head of the camp once said all we have to do is get the rating down and stay with the other boats and it will all work out.......... he's a smart old bloke.......

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Yep Rags is a gen 4. We did alot of work to get the rating right.......... and it pays big time. As the head of the camp once said all we have to do is get the rating down and stay with the other boats and it will all work out.......... he's a smart old bloke.......

 

This is what i'm getting at. Obviously it's not about slowing these boats down for IRC, but there are obviously features that IRC favours that aren't going to put you out of the hunt boat for boat. You don't mess with the wisdom of the octagon!

 

From that IRC list i think Braveheart (2003, Bakewell White / Cookson) is the lowest rating boat that is still in full TP52 trim at 1.338 whilst something like the Ex-Valars ex- Caxia I (2005, Farr #585 / Cookson) sister ship to the Bribon/Aifos/Rush clan is rating up at 1.353, never mind to two ex-Patches boats topping out the list at 1.361 and 1.369!

 

Assuming that all these TP52 compliant boats are at max class SA, and the only differences are two/three spreader rigs, appendage packages and hull factors, thats a fair wack of IRC variance as a result, and these are not easy or cheap numbers change.

 

Whilst i wouldn't expect the Rags camp to reveal any of their hardwork, without a fair whack of red dot being involved, I'd be interested if you had an IRC rating for the boat as per Morning Light / Pegasus trim for comparisons sake.

 

It'll be interesting to see what the new Wot Yot II and MS's ex-fidessa ex-christabella come out at after their current IRC fiddle...

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This is what i'm getting at. Obviously it's not about slowing these boats down for IRC, but there are obviously features that IRC favours that aren't going to put you out of the hunt boat for boat. You don't mess with the wisdom of the octagon!

 

From that IRC list i think Braveheart (2003, Bakewell White / Cookson) is the lowest rating boat that is still in full TP52 trim at 1.338 whilst something like the Ex-Valars ex- Caxia I (2005, Farr #585 / Cookson) sister ship to the Bribon/Aifos/Rush clan is rating up at 1.353, never mind to two ex-Patches boats topping out the list at 1.361 and 1.369!

 

Assuming that all these TP52 compliant boats are at max class SA, and the only differences are two/three spreader rigs, appendage packages and hull factors, thats a fair wack of IRC variance as a result, and these are not easy or cheap numbers change.

 

Whilst i wouldn't expect the Rags camp to reveal any of their hardwork, without a fair whack of red dot being involved, I'd be interested if you had an IRC rating for the boat as per Morning Light / Pegasus trim for comparisons sake.

 

It'll be interesting to see what the new Wot Yot II and MS's