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Brian Weslake

Is Hastings OK?

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Hastings hasn't posted in for 2 days, well down from his average of 11 posts / day, and he hasn't started a thread in 4 days.

 

Something must be seriously wrong!

 

Is he OK?

 

Should we be concerned?

 

Has he run out of questions to ask?

 

Has the Taniwha swallowed him up?

 

Someone out there must know the facts!

Those with inside knowledge, speak up!

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. . . could just be a case of having second thoughts . . .

..... or a simple case of a weekend away ......

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Hastings hasn't posted in for 2 days, well down from his average of 11 posts / day, and he hasn't started a thread in 4 days.

 

Something must be seriously wrong!

 

Is he OK?

 

Should we be concerned?

 

Has he run out of questions to ask?

 

Has the Taniwha swallowed him up?

 

Someone out there must know the facts!

Those with inside knowledge, speak up!

I had similar thoughts too today, when I was thinning out the ferns in my garden, and was looking at my Taniwha/Ogo Pogo-crossbreed. Probably he (Hastings) rather spends the beautiful spring days on the sea or in the garden as well than sitting in front of the screen.

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At this time of year I live off the grid where I play with solar pinels and sniff the atmosphere looking for stray Internet signals (there are none).

 

I got most of the garden in and am imploring ancient hens to lay (otherwise they are out of here). While in "civilization" (i.e. a country store with an Internet signal) I will use a phone and find replacement hens.

 

To reach the Internet I must go by boat, tie to a dock (with a 15 min. limit) run up the ramp, plug in my laptop and go, go, go. It is free to path into their signal. But I had better buy milk and newspapers while here.

 

Also, I have friends in the Chengdu earthquake zone and, frankly, am starting to think I should make room for new obsessions in my life.

 

I am also very irate with Burmese generals, am appraised of what the UN means by "responsibility to protect," and would like to have a chat with people who spend millions on incoherent lawyers but do dick-all for the poor and downtrodden. I know of good ways to put money in places where it can make a difference.

 

I am currently looking across a bay crowded with small boats and people going slow. There are float planes going in and out and, on the other side, a YC (to which I do not belong). I have not seen a taniwha today. But they will be there.

 

Yesterday I spent an afternoon and evening pulling apart the raw water side of the gas engine in my stink boat. I recently dropped in a new Mallory distributor and found the intake manifold getting very hot (hard to touch). Have concluded the distributor is fine. So, pulled apart the Sherwood raw water pump (all ok), changed the thermostat (allegedly 160 but always runs at 180 or 185 or even 190). I thought of asking SA petrolheads about this. I remember the thread hijack when shiny Mustangs and other things showsed up ! But when I ran the boat across the channel just now it seemed ok. We shall see. I really need a diesel. But not worth spending the euros on this hull.

 

I am wondering if, after putting in 16 hour days, the blokes in the Anacortes shed feel they are now in an anticlimax.

 

I thank you for your concern.

 

Cheers to all, Hastings

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At this time of year I live off the grid where I play with solar pinels and sniff the atmosphere looking for stray Internet signals (there are none).

 

I got most of the garden in and am imploring ancient hens to lay (otherwise they are out of here). While in "civilization" (i.e. a country store with an Internet signal) I will use a phone and find replacement hens.

 

To reach the Internet I must go by boat, tie to a dock (with a 15 min. limit) run up the ramp, plug in my laptop and go, go, go. It is free to path into their signal. But I had better buy milk and newspapers while here.

 

Also, I have friends in the Chengdu earthquake zone and, frankly, am starting to think I should make room for new obsessions in my life.

 

I am also very irate with Burmese generals, am appraised of what the UN means by "responsibility to protect," and would like to have a chat with people who spend millions on incoherent lawyers but do dick-all for the poor and downtrodden. I know of good ways to put money in places where it can make a difference.

 

I am currently looking across a bay crowded with small boats and people going slow. There are float planes going in and out and, on the other side, a YC (to which I do not belong). I have not seen a taniwha today. But they will be there.

 

Yesterday I spent an afternoon and evening pulling apart the raw water side of the gas engine in my stink boat. I recently dropped in a new Mallory distributor and found the intake manifold getting very hot (hard to touch). Have concluded the distributor is fine. So, pulled apart the Sherwood raw water pump (all ok), changed the thermostat (allegedly 160 but always runs at 180 or 185 or even 190). I thought of asking SA petrolheads about this. I remember the thread hijack when shiny Mustangs and other things showsed up ! But when I ran the boat across the channel just now it seemed ok. We shall see. I really need a diesel. But not worth spending the euros on this hull.

 

I am wondering if, after putting in 16 hour days, the blokes in the Anacortes shed feel they are now in an anticlimax.

 

I thank you for your concern.

 

Cheers to all, Hastings

Sounds like you've discovered your own personal Walden Pond. That's great!

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Yesterday I spent an afternoon and evening pulling apart the raw water side of the gas engine in my stink boat. I recently dropped in a new Mallory distributor and found the intake manifold getting very hot (hard to touch). Have concluded the distributor is fine.

 

I always preferred the Accel products instead of Mallory. Always seemed to have problems with the Mallory's, never with the Accel's.

 

Good to hear she seems to be running fine. Probably just wanted some personal attention instead of you spending all your time worrying about the AC drama. ;)

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I always preferred the Accel products instead of Mallory. Always seemed to have problems with the Mallory's, never with the Accel's.

 

Good to hear she seems to be running fine. Probably just wanted some personal attention instead of you spending all your time worrying about the AC drama. ;)

 

 

Put another 60 nm on this crap gas engine (Ford Windsor 351) in recent days .... Running ok with the new distributor but intake manifold too hot to touch within minutes of starting. I think the raw water side (which cools manifolds and risers) is ok but have today bought a new waterpump (for the fresh water bit through the engine).

 

Is there some way of establishing if the internal water pump (the fresh water side - with coolant in it) is running - or not running - before I start ripping the front off the engine ?

 

What puzzles me is the fact the intake manifold gets sizzling hot but the temperature sender keeps saying 185 degrees.

 

Maybe I should stop fretting and accept the hot intake manifold as "normal?" But I know to assume nothing when it comes to boats.

 

Appreciate your advice about Mallory. I was told to dump the Mallory and get a Prestolite. Called them to find the whole bloody lot are now owned by MrGasket.com.

 

I spend too much time on Sailing Anarchy and too much with my head under this engine.

 

Stink boats ! Drive you mad !

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Put another 60 nm on this crap gas engine (Ford Windsor 351) in recent days .... Running ok with the new distributor but intake manifold too hot to touch within minutes of starting. I think the raw water side (which cools manifolds and risers) is ok but have today bought a new waterpump (for the fresh water bit through the engine).

 

Is there some way of establishing if the internal water pump (the fresh water side - with coolant in it) is running - or not running - before I start ripping the front off the engine ?

 

What puzzles me is the fact the intake manifold gets sizzling hot but the temperature sender keeps saying 185 degrees.

 

Maybe I should stop fretting and accept the hot intake manifold as "normal?" But I know to assume nothing when it comes to boats.

 

Appreciate your advice about Mallory. I was told to dump the Mallory and get a Prestolite. Called them to find the whole bloody lot are now owned by MrGasket.com.

 

I spend too much time on Sailing Anarchy and too much with my head under this engine.

 

Stink boats ! Drive you mad !

Sounds as though, when you fitted the distributor, you might have retarded the ignition. Check it out before you start pulling things apart.

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Put another 60 nm on this crap gas engine (Ford Windsor 351) in recent days .... Running ok with the new distributor but intake manifold too hot to touch within minutes of starting. I think the raw water side (which cools manifolds and risers) is ok but have today bought a new waterpump (for the fresh water bit through the engine).

 

Is there some way of establishing if the internal water pump (the fresh water side - with coolant in it) is running - or not running - before I start ripping the front off the engine ?

 

What puzzles me is the fact the intake manifold gets sizzling hot but the temperature sender keeps saying 185 degrees.

 

Maybe I should stop fretting and accept the hot intake manifold as "normal?" But I know to assume nothing when it comes to boats.

 

Appreciate your advice about Mallory. I was told to dump the Mallory and get a Prestolite. Called them to find the whole bloody lot are now owned by MrGasket.com.

 

I spend too much time on Sailing Anarchy and too much with my head under this engine.

 

Stink boats ! Drive you mad !

 

Could be that nothing is wrong. What is your frame of reference for the manifold temperature? The temperature the sending unit is reporting should be the coolant temperature. 185 would be too hot to touch but not abnormal for a temperature reading. How hot did the manifold get before? How hot is it getting now?

 

It has been years since I've worked on engines so take with a grain of salt. The 351 may have a coolant crossover that runs through it. It's purpose would be to provide a flow path between the heads and not to cool the manifold itself, although it may accomplish that to some degree. It's main source of cooling would be the fresh air flowing through it. It will get quite hot. I would never touch one on a recently running engine.

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Is there some way of establishing if the internal water pump (the fresh water side - with coolant in it) is running - or not running - before I start ripping the front off the engine ?

 

Stink boats ! Drive you mad !

 

The circulation pump is pretty basic - check underneath for a leak or weep. There is usually a telltale which allows you to know a bearing or seal has failed. If you hear a noise from it the bearings are shot, but won't usually upset your cooling. It will keep spinning until it seizes or something gives...

 

 

Sounds as though, when you fitted the distributor, you might have retarded the ignition. Check it out before you start pulling things apart.

 

A good and often overlooked point when it comes to unusual heating problems - confirm your timing is ok with the new distributor.

One thing to note - if the intake is really that hot it will lead to all sorts of running problems like poor start up, rough idling and pretty crap running characteristics. If it runs sweetly and the temp gauge is accurate the engine is probably ok.

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Could be that nothing is wrong. What is your frame of reference for the manifold temperature? The temperature the sending unit is reporting should be the coolant temperature. 185 would be too hot to touch but not abnormal for a temperature reading. How hot did the manifold get before? How hot is it getting now?

 

It has been years since I've worked on engines so take with a grain of salt. The 351 may have a coolant crossover that runs through it. It's purpose would be to provide a flow path between the heads and not to cool the manifold itself, although it may accomplish that to some degree. It's main source of cooling would be the fresh air flowing through it. It will get quite hot. I would never touch one on a recently running engine.

 

I agree that nothing may be wrong. If timing is retarded, it will heat exhaust, not intake, I think. As I recall my last 351 Windsor, the manifold tended to get hot near the heads. Although the coolant leaves the engine at the thermostat housing on the manifold, I don't think it circulates much around the manifold, and the coolant is hot when it gets there. Unless you're going for max power and want to keep the intake charge cool to increase mass, a hot intake manifold isn't bad at all. It helps even the fuel/air mix.

Easiest way to get an answer is to call Edelbrock.

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I agree that nothing may be wrong. If timing is retarded, it will heat exhaust, not intake, I think. As I recall my last 351 Windsor, the manifold tended to get hot near the heads. Although the coolant leaves the engine at the thermostat housing on the manifold, I don't think it circulates much around the manifold, and the coolant is hot when it gets there. Unless you're going for max power and want to keep the intake charge cool to increase mass, a hot intake manifold isn't bad at all. It helps even the fuel/air mix.

Easiest way to get an answer is to call Edelbrock.

 

Intake manifolds on V-8's are not usually water heated, many are exhaust heated under the carburetor to improve cold performance, in automotive applications the heat riser is shut down as the engine comes up to temperature.

 

Since most marine applications do not use a temperature controlled heat riser system in the exhaust, I would suspect that the manifold passage does not exist on marine intake manifolds or that the marine intake manifold gasket is used to block it.

 

In an automotive application, you have a great honking fan and there is much more air flow over the engine than in a boat. There is no air movement to take the radiant heat out of the engine compartment, so the perception may well be that the intake is too hot.

 

If the manifold is painted, look at the area near the centre of each intake manifold gasket, just next to the carb. It would be normal to have some discolouration there due to the exhaust gas crossover, but if the paint looks like some one took a torch to it, there may well be a problem with too much exhaust flow in the crossover heating the manifold more than it should be. I've seen intake gaskets that have built in restrictor fail this way, no external leaks (vacuum, oil, or coolant) but too much exhaust flow in the crossover that fries the manifold paint locally and causes all sorts of drivability issues.

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Intake manifolds on V-8's are not usually water heated, many are exhaust heated under the carburetor to improve cold performance, in automotive applications the heat riser is shut down as the engine comes up to temperature.........

 

+1

 

What he said.

 

I won't get into the Ford vs Chevy thing, we have enough SNG vs GGYC going on now.

 

post-14813-1211388757_thumb.jpg :o

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Sounds as though, when you fitted the distributor, you might have retarded the ignition. Check it out before you start pulling things apart.

 

Hey Marian ... your participation is appreciated .... By I bought a new timing light after inadvertently smashing the other other ... Timing is ok .... But alweays worth checking again ...

 

Thanks for this ...

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Could be that nothing is wrong. What is your frame of reference for the manifold temperature? The temperature the sending unit is reporting should be the coolant temperature. 185 would be too hot to touch but not abnormal for a temperature reading. How hot did the manifold get before? How hot is it getting now?

 

It has been years since I've worked on engines so take with a grain of salt. The 351 may have a coolant crossover that runs through it. It's purpose would be to provide a flow path between the heads and not to cool the manifold itself, although it may accomplish that to some degree. It's main source of cooling would be the fresh air flowing through it. It will get quite hot. I would never touch one on a recently running engine.

 

You have this about 75% right. The manifolds and risers are salt water cooled. I occasionally take a plug out of the back of a manifold to make sure the water flow is good.

 

The intake manifold, the block etc etc is cooled by fresh water (mixed with coolant) pumped around from a pump mounted inside (at the front end) of the engine.

 

This being a boat, air cooling is not involved.

 

The frame of reference for the manifold temperature is a bare hand. They get hot, but not excessively so. Once or twice a year I take them off and poke in a metal coat hanger to dislodge incipient gunk.

 

The only temperature sender is just aft of the distributor, in the middle of the intake manifold on the "top" of the engine.

 

But now Marian has me thinking. There are two marks on the flywheel. One is top-dead-centre and the other will be 10 degrees before. Maybe I have it on the 10 degree mark, not TDC.

 

Jeez, if Marian has sorted-out my problem I will have to buy her something nice at the DOG-Fight !!!

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The circulation pump is pretty basic - check underneath for a leak or weep. There is usually a telltale which allows you to know a bearing or seal has failed. If you hear a noise from it the bearings are shot, but won't usually upset your cooling. It will keep spinning until it seizes or something gives...

A good and often overlooked point when it comes to unusual heating problems - confirm your timing is ok with the new distributor.

One thing to note - if the intake is really that hot it will lead to all sorts of running problems like poor start up, rough idling and pretty crap running characteristics. If it runs sweetly and the temp gauge is accurate the engine is probably ok.

 

Good advice ! Thank you !

 

There are no drips or unusual noises coming from the circulation pump. And I am very reluctant to spend a day upside down ripping it out (I once rebuilt the carb. only to later find a small blockage on the main fuel line at the entrance to the fuel filter). Although I bought a new one to join all the other "spares" on the boat.

 

Like Marian, you are pointing at the timing. I must get under there with a strong light to see what is actually written on the flywheel. The painted marks asre there. But did I put them there ? Probably wnt on after the last rebuild.

 

Man, if that is problem, correcting it is a 5 min. job.

 

Thank you very much for this.

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I agree that nothing may be wrong. If timing is retarded, it will heat exhaust, not intake, I think. As I recall my last 351 Windsor, the manifold tended to get hot near the heads. Although the coolant leaves the engine at the thermostat housing on the manifold, I don't think it circulates much around the manifold, and the coolant is hot when it gets there. Unless you're going for max power and want to keep the intake charge cool to increase mass, a hot intake manifold isn't bad at all. It helps even the fuel/air mix.

Easiest way to get an answer is to call Edelbrock.

 

Thanks for this ... And others have said don't worry about the hot intake manifold ... It just that I don't remember it being this hot prior to the distributor being changed.

 

In my set up, the coolant flows up past the thermostat into a heat exchanger and then back into the engine through a connection on the bottom of the engine.

 

The manifolds and risers are salt water cooled - via a Sherwood pump and the same heat exchanger involving the coolant.

 

You are right about heat where the manifolds are bolted to the block. They get very hot there and it is a mickey-mouse 4-bolt set up with the Barr manifolds. I have had them on and off many times and sometimes remove them just to chip rust and apply paint.

 

Many thanks for your advice. Very much appreciated.

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I won't get into the Ford vs Chevy thing, we have enough SNG vs GGYC going on now.
s

 

That's funny !

 

Because people have been yelling at me for years - for having a Ford !!!!

 

[Renmauss and I have been discussing this offline. And she's in the business so she knows !]

 

Trouble is, when I was 18 yrs. old, I had a 1929 British motor racing green Model A Sedan. An exquisite piece of work.

 

And what happened in the back seat of that beauty left a sort of indelible impression.

 

But I hear you.

 

Gas engines in boats are nuts. But, if you must, use a Chevy not a Ford.

 

I wonder if Ernesto will chime in on this issue.

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Thank you all ....

 

I am going over to the boat to check the timing....

 

Marian, if you are right, I will beg forgiveness and bring a bottle of Oyster Bay Sauvignon Blanc.

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Put another 60 nm on this crap gas engine (Ford Windsor 351) in recent days .... Running ok with the new distributor but intake manifold too hot to touch within minutes of starting. I think the raw water side (which cools manifolds and risers) is ok but have today bought a new waterpump (for the fresh water bit through the engine).

 

Is there some way of establishing if the internal water pump (the fresh water side - with coolant in it) is running - or not running - before I start ripping the front off the engine ?

 

What puzzles me is the fact the intake manifold gets sizzling hot but the temperature sender keeps saying 185 degrees.

 

Maybe I should stop fretting and accept the hot intake manifold as "normal?" But I know to assume nothing when it comes to boats.

 

Appreciate your advice about Mallory. I was told to dump the Mallory and get a Prestolite. Called them to find the whole bloody lot are now owned by MrGasket.com.

 

I spend too much time on Sailing Anarchy and too much with my head under this engine.

 

Stink boats ! Drive you mad !

 

 

They get hot, to hot to touch is normal. 190 F is normal operating temp. for a gas motor. If you were having a flow problem the motor would overheat. At 240 F bad things start happening.

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. . . if the worst comes to the worst . . . you could always just harden up . . .

 

 

I hear you ... But this is my commuter boat .... It has to run ... winter, summer, the works !

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You have this about 75% right. The manifolds and risers are salt water cooled. I occasionally take a plug out of the back of a manifold to make sure the water flow is good.

 

The intake manifold, the block etc etc is cooled by fresh water (mixed with coolant) pumped around from a pump mounted inside (at the front end) of the engine.

 

This being a boat, air cooling is not involved.

 

The frame of reference for the manifold temperature is a bare hand. They get hot, but not excessively so. Once or twice a year I take them off and poke in a metal coat hanger to dislodge incipient gunk.

 

The only temperature sender is just aft of the distributor, in the middle of the intake manifold on the "top" of the engine.

 

But now Marian has me thinking. There are two marks on the flywheel. One is top-dead-centre and the other will be 10 degrees before. Maybe I have it on the 10 degree mark, not TDC.

 

Jeez, if Marian has sorted-out my problem I will have to buy her something nice at the DOG-Fight !!!

 

Unless your running a high performance engine. Your ignition timing will be between 10 and 6 deg. BTDC without vacuum.

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Unless your running a high performance engine. Your ignition timing will be between 10 and 6 deg. BTDC without vacuum.

 

Thank you ... I suspect it is currently at 10 degrees before TDC but am going down to have a look ...

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Thank you ... I suspect it is currently at 10 degrees before TDC but am going down to have a look ...

 

Y'all know how to to set the timing? Run the boat at near WOT and note the RPM. Change the timing until you get the maximum RPM. Back it down a degree or two, lock it and mark it on the timing pulley (so you can return to the setting) and forget it. Marine engines shouldn't be pulling enough vacuum to use a vacuum advance, so the timing curve is limited by the centrifugal advance in the distributor. The rate of advance and the shape of the advance curve are controlled by the advance springs.

 

Automotive street distributors have more advance range than they need for proper engine performance. This results in the timing at idle being to far retarded. Retarded idle timing is used to control low or no load emissions. Timing at maximum HP will be in the 35-40 deg range, and 5-15 works fine at idle. I'll assume that the new distributor is for marine use, and has a limited advance curve compared to the same unit for an automotive application. It is entirely possible that it has an automotive advance mechanism. This would make the timing too far advanced at cruise if the marine engine base timing is used. If the timing spec and marks are for a distributor with an automotive curve, and the distributor has a marine curve, the timing is likely to be to retarded under load at cruise or near maximum RPM.

 

Before I'd worry about any of this too much, I'd first get the distributor timing curve specs for the standard marine distributor and compare them to the specs on the new unit. For example; if the standard marine dist has 12.5 deg of advance, 10 deg of base timing gives you 35 deg at full advance. Say your new unit has 15 deg of advance, the same base timing would give you 40 deg at full advance. To get to the correct full advance number, you would have to set the base timing at 5 deg not 10 deg.

 

The old fashioned way of cranking advance in until the full load RPM stops increasing works every time. Its like trimming a sail, you trim for maximum speed not to some pre-set position. Once you know what the fast setting is, you mark it so you can return to it.

 

Yeah yeah ... I used to build race engines in a past life ... :(

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Hey Marian ... your participation is appreciated .... By I bought a new timing light after inadvertently smashing the other other ... Timing is ok .... But alweays worth checking again ...

Thanks for this ...

I'm wondering how you are checking the timing? Static or with the engine running? 10° to 6° would be correct for static, but if you are checking running I'd guess (knowing nothing about that particular engine) that 22° would be closer to being right.

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Thermostat in the system..?? If it's not opening or only opening partially and temp sensor plumbed on the cool side of things, that could be it. Symptom would be hot as hell block/head/manifold. 185-190 is optimum for race engine, street/boat can live with 160-180 but oil temp is the critical piece so you don't spin a bearing.... We still run a thermostat but with holes drilled around flange. No stat and coolant moves too fast through block (much smaller Ford -1.6 Kent engine)....

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Y'all know how to to set the timing? Run the boat at near WOT and note the RPM. Change the timing until you get the maximum RPM. Back it down a degree or two, lock it and mark it on the timing pulley (so you can return to the setting) and forget it. Marine engines shouldn't be pulling enough vacuum to use a vacuum advance, so the timing curve is limited by the centrifugal advance in the distributor. The rate of advance and the shape of the advance curve are controlled by the advance springs.

 

Bloody 'ell ... first come Vista struggles. Now comes gas engine ignition.

 

Randy, I appreciate your clear analysis.

 

I think I have the proper marine distributor for the Ford 351. It is a Mallory YLU554 CV. I have no vacuum advance. The distributor springs do that job.

 

The "U" stands for the unlite module. So it is an electronic ignition. No points. I have about 5 or 6 spare unilite modules. Although they neve seem to break down.

 

I have a ballast resistor in the system. According to Mallory "a ballast resistor has no effect of the performance of the ignition system. However, intalling or retaining the original ballast resistor allows for easy conversion back to standard ignition" (yea ... back to points ... not likely !)

 

Randy, run the boat at near WOT ..... What is WOT ?

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Thermostat in the system..?? If it's not opening or only opening partially and temp sensor plumbed on the cool side of things, that could be it. Symptom would be hot as hell block/head/manifold. 185-190 is optimum for race engine, street/boat can live with 160-180 but oil temp is the critical piece so you don't spin a bearing.... We still run a thermostat but with holes drilled around flange. No stat and coolant moves too fast through block (much smaller Ford -1.6 Kent engine)....

 

I changed the thermostat over the weekend. Threw away the old one, installed a new one set for 160.

 

But made no difference. And, although I always put in 160-degree thermostats, it runs at 185 ! Been like this for years. Never understood it.

 

I have an oil cooler (raw water).

 

And I agree. I like to see those fluids moving through the engine, heat exchanger etc, fast !

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Bloody 'ell ... first come the VIsta struggles. Now comes gas engine ignition.

 

Randy, I appreciate your clear analysis.

 

I think I have the proper marine distributor for the Ford 351. It is a Mallory YLU554 CV. I have no vacuum advance. The distributor springs do that job.

 

The "U" stands for the unlite module. So it is an electronic ignition. No points. I have about 5 or 6 spare unilite modules. Although they neve seem to break down.

 

I have a ballast resistor in the system. According to Mallory "a ballast resistor has no effect of the performance of the ignition system. However, intalling or retaining the original ballast resistor allows for easy conversion back to standard ignition" (yea ... back to points ... not likely !)

 

Randy, run the boat at near WOT ..... What is WOT ?

 

Wide Open Throttle ... timing is most critical at maximum load (high cylinder pressure) ... the ideal would be to load the engine to its maximum torque RPM at WOT, mean cylinder pressure is highest around the torque peak and that is when the engine is most likely to ping (detonate). The average cylinder pressure is actually lower at peak HP if the HP peak is above 5280 RPM, under that rpm, torque (ft lbs) is always higher than HP.

 

Most over square engines (bore greater than stroke) are happy with full advance set at 35-40 degrees, if it wasn't for the need to start the stupid things and have them idle, there would be little need for changing the timing. Marine engines never operate at part load, partial throttle conditions where it pays in fuel economy to over advance the timing (load compensation is the reason for vacuum advance systems).

 

The ballast resistor is used to control primary coil voltage while the engine is running. When cranking, the voltage is in the 9.6-10.6 range so if you want full spark voltage, you feed the coil full battery voltage during cranking. Once the engine starts, the system voltage goes up to whatever the alternator is set at (13.7-14.1) and the coil can overheat and fail, so the resistor is used to drop the coil primary voltage to the same approx 10 v that it sees while cranking ... solid state ignitions do not require the ballast ... primary voltage can be regulated without it. The coil saturation time (dwell) is controlled and the is not over saturated at low rpm as it must be to work correctly at high rpm with a fixed dwell points system.

 

Are we off topic yet? :D

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Wide Open Throttle ... timing is most critical at maximum load (high cylinder pressure) ... the ideal would be to load the engine to its maximum torque RPM at WOT, mean cylinder pressure is highest around the torque peak and that is when the engine is most likely to ping (detonate).

Are we off topic yet? :D

 

Randy: I agree with everything you've written. Easiest approach for Hastings, however, if his new timing light is dial back, is to take the distributor to max advance - it's centrifugal only - and set it to about 35. Everything else should work. 351 Windsors are pretty forgiving. (I have had a few small misadventures advancing marine engines to ping under load. :P )

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Are we off topic yet? :D

Not only off topic, but you are grossly overcomplicating things.

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But made no difference. And, although I always put in 160-degree thermostats, it runs at 185 ! Been like this for years. Never understood it.

Just means cooling side is not able to keep up with heat output from engine even with 160. 160 is when it opens full - if there was enough cooling capacity it should stabilize at that level - 185 is OK. Also, most systems are designed for some back pressure - if the flow is too fast thru the engine the coolant does not have the time to pick up the heat - hence keeping a stat with holes drilled on our race block....

 

Anyone replace gaskets recently..?? If new gaskets did not have the right holes for the cooling that would sure fack things up real fast and I have seen that mistake made before (wasn't me....). If not, timing is likely culprit or real lean mixture on the fuel side with two final items - air bubble in the system - there needs to be a bleed or coolant cap at least as high as the highest coolant run in the block and leave open while running for a bit to bleed the system. Coolant caps are also known to leak and fail - if they won't hold pressure, cooling will be bad....

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Randy: I agree with everything you've written. Easiest approach for Hastings, however, if his new timing light is dial back, is to take the distributor to max advance - it's centrifugal only - and set it to about 35. Everything else should work. 351 Windsors are pretty forgiving. (I have had a few small misadventures advancing marine engines to ping under load. :P )

 

LOL ... yeppers ... can be a pucker moment for sure. A good trick is to richen the mixture up to prevent the ping while you dial the timing up. The RPM increase rate should go flat before the engine can hurt itself. Then lean the mix out until the first hint of an RPM drop then back rich a step or two. Setting the timing under load at full power mixtures is walking a tightrope for sure. Engines loose power slowly from being over rich, they gain power as you lean them out, then they explode. :) Always safe to run engines so rich they almost foul the plugs, not real fast and not real good for $5/gallon gas though.

 

Its been a awhile, is the 351 one of those engines where the timing marks are on the dampener? I've seen those walk on the rubber part and end up with the timing marks not correctly indexed to the crank.

 

I agree, hard to go wrong setting full advance at 35. Might not be perfect but it will be darn close.

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LOL ... yeppers ... can be a pucker moment for sure. A good trick is to richen the mixture up to prevent the ping while you dial the timing up. The RPM increase rate should go flat before the engine can hurt itself. Then lean the mix out until the first hint of an RPM drop then back rich a step or two. Setting the timing under load at full power mixtures is walking a tightrope for sure. Engines loose power slowly from being over rich, they gain power as you lean them out, then they explode. :) Always safe to run engines so rich they almost foul the plugs, not real fast and not real good for $5/gallon gas though.

 

Its been a awhile, is the 351 one of those engines where the timing marks are on the dampener? I've seen those walk on the rubber part and end up with the timing marks not correctly indexed to the crank.

 

I agree, hard to go wrong setting full advance at 35. Might not be perfect but it will be darn close.

Do the marks go that high on a standard balancer. I've always set them up at idle and then tweeked them until I got preignition then backed off a few deg.s.

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Do the marks go that high on a standard balancer. I've always set them up at idle and then tweeked them until I got preignition then backed off a few deg.s.

Exactly!

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Put another 60 nm on this crap gas engine (Ford Windsor 351) in recent days .... Running ok with the new distributor but intake manifold too hot to touch within minutes of starting. I think the raw water side (which cools manifolds and risers) is ok but have today bought a new waterpump (for the fresh water bit through the engine).

 

Is there some way of establishing if the internal water pump (the fresh water side - with coolant in it) is running - or not running - before I start ripping the front off the engine ?

 

What puzzles me is the fact the intake manifold gets sizzling hot but the temperature sender keeps saying 185 degrees.

 

Maybe I should stop fretting and accept the hot intake manifold as "normal?" But I know to assume nothing when it comes to boats.

 

Appreciate your advice about Mallory. I was told to dump the Mallory and get a Prestolite. Called them to find the whole bloody lot are now owned by MrGasket.com.

 

I spend too much time on Sailing Anarchy and too much with my head under this engine.

 

Stink boats ! Drive you mad !

 

 

Interesting our 1985 351 windsor had a similar issue - wrong gasket was installed at the factory. Causing the temp issue. After that was fixed it ran for years and years with no issues - then it carboned up and the starter started lighting off the battery cable pretty cool to turn the key and get a nice flame and smoke going.

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Do the marks go that high on a standard balancer. I've always set them up at idle and then tweeked them until I got preignition then backed off a few deg.s.

 

Sorry. Although Randy followed what I said, it wasn't really clear.

A decent timing light these days has a dial-back function. It used to be only Snap-On at several hundred bucks, but I got one a few years ago for $50. You attach as with older ones - clips to battery and a clamp pickup around #1 plug wire. You zero the light on the TDC mark. In neutral, then, you rev it to about 2000, which will get you full advance centrifugally. Then, dial back the timing light until it lines up with the TDC line. The panel in the light will read the number of degrees advance. A little tweaking and lock down. No playing under load or with mixture. Will do fine for commuter boat.

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Not to worry you too much, but if there are a lot of hours/miles on the old girl you could have a stretched timing chain, which would retard everything, including the valve timing.

 

If you see the timing mark varying back and forth while the engine is at a steady state rpm wise (usually at idle), it could be the chain. Being you have the new distributor I would not suspect the timing walking around due to the dist. shaft bushings being worn (spark scatter).

 

Swap it out and she'll be virtually good as new, if this proves out.

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Exactly!

Marian is right, the idea is to advance it as much as you can without damaging the engine.

 

Only problem is that pre-ignition is not always easy to identify, the loaded RPM will have reached its plateau several degrees before the onset of pre-ignition. Using a good tach, a rich mixture, and caution reduces the chances of ending up with a borderline condition. If you monitor cylinder pressure, you will find that the pressure will climb with spark advance after the engine has stopped making more power. Some engines just go flat with too much advance, others melt plugs and pistons in a great hurry once pre-ignition starts. My guess is that most people can't hear borderline pre-ignition in a marine engine under load, by the time pre-ignition can be heard under those conditions the timing is much too far advanced. I think most sailors have only ever dealt with low HP gas auxiliaries (Atomic 4's) that are relatively tolerant of poor tuning.

 

Using an adjustable timing light and just going for 35 degrees at full advance is the safest option unless there is a known full advance spec.

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Marian is right, the idea is to advance it as much as you can without damaging the engine.

 

Only problem is that pre-ignition is not always easy to identify, the loaded RPM will have reached its plateau several degrees before the onset of pre-ignition. Using a good tach, a rich mixture, and caution reduces the chances of ending up with a borderline condition. If you monitor cylinder pressure, you will find that the pressure will climb with spark advance after the engine has stopped making more power. Some engines just go flat with too much advance, others melt plugs and pistons in a great hurry once pre-ignition starts. My guess is that most people can't hear borderline pre-ignition in a marine engine under load, by the time pre-ignition can be heard under those conditions the timing is much too far advanced. I think most sailors have only ever dealt with low HP gas auxiliaries (Atomic 4's) that are relatively tolerant of poor tuning.

Using an adjustable timing light and just going for 35 degrees at full advance is the safest option unless there is a known full advance spec.

For goodness sake Randy, we aren't talking about racing engines - this is a marine plonker, albeit one that is powerful by US standards - and you're just over complicating what is, probably, a very simple situation.

I don't know why Hastings decided he needed a new distrib, but the first question I'd ask - after my earlier one about whether he did a static or running check - is whether he'd ever checked how hot his inlet manifold was before he changed the distrib? Could be nothing is wrong, but until he answers that question, further speculation is pointless!

All this highly convoluted stuff, about what seems to me to be a very simple problem, does make me think that your AC thinkings are more convoluted than they need to be.

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For goodness sake Randy, we aren't talking about racing engines..........

 

 

All this highly convoluted stuff, about what seems to me to be a very simple problem, does make me think that your AC thinkings are more convoluted than they need to be.

 

 

Oh geez, now we're going to argue semantics over engine tuning.....................................

 

 

 

Pass the popcorn :blink:

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For goodness sake Randy, we aren't talking about racing engines - this is a marine plonker, albeit one that is powerful by US standards - and you're just over complicating what is, probably, a very simple situation.

I don't know why Hastings decided he needed a new distrib, but the first question I'd ask - after my earlier one about whether he did a static or running check - is whether he'd ever checked how hot his inlet manifold was before he changed the distrib? Could be nothing is wrong, but until he answers that question, further speculation is pointless!

All this highly convoluted stuff, about what seems to me to be a very simple problem, does make me think that your AC thinkings are more convoluted than they need to be.

 

 

Oh geez, now we're going to argue semantics over engine tuning.....................................

Pass the popcorn :blink:

Was just waiting to see how long Marion and the rest of you went before you got mired in pointless invective... :lol:

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Anyone replace gaskets recently..?? If new gaskets did not have the right holes for the cooling that would sure fack things up real fast and I have seen that mistake made before (wasn't me....).

 

 

Very good point. There are gaskets that separate the Barr risers from the Barr manifolds. With my raw water manifold cooling system all the channels are open. You are right. These must be the correct gaskets and they are !

 

There is another system I have seen where the riser cooling and manifold cooling are kept separate. But, in my set-up, salt water comes through the leg, into the boat where the Sherwood pump puts it up into the heat exchanger and then down through the manifolds, up through the risers, into the exhaust elbows and out the back of the boat with a throaty roar.

 

When people hear it they say "Jeez ... that's awesome, what is it ?"

 

And I say "twin 600 horse Caterpillar diesels."

 

I wish !

 

Thanks for your contribution to this. It is all useful

 

I was going to follow Allah or the Dalai Lama. But I think I will follow Marian and Hough.

 

Load it up and adjust the timing.

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For goodness sake Randy, we aren't talking about racing engines - this is a marine plonker, albeit one that is powerful by US standards - and you're just over complicating what is, probably, a very simple situation.

I don't know why Hastings decided he needed a new distrib, but the first question I'd ask - after my earlier one about whether he did a static or running check - is whether he'd ever checked how hot his inlet manifold was before he changed the distrib? Could be nothing is wrong, but until he answers that question, further speculation is pointless!

All this highly convoluted stuff, about what seems to me to be a very simple problem, does make me think that your AC thinkings are more convoluted than they need to be.

I'm sorry if you thought my simple replies were overly complicated. Lots of damage is done by people that think a problem is simple. Your comment about the timing at idle being different than a static check with the engine stopped tels me that you don't have all that much experience. Sorry if I confused you or anyone else.

 

I agree 100% that if you are not sure that something has changed you don't know that there is a problem to start with.

 

If it is true that the engine has a 160 deg F thermostat installed and it runs at 185, there IS a problem. Whether that problem has anything to do with the distributor or timing is unknown. Since this is clearly off topic for a sailing forum, I will not post again on the topic.

 

Once again, my apology to all.

 

PS. Does this mean we don't have a date for the DoG match? ;)

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Two final items - air bubble in the system - there needs to be a bleed or coolant cap at least as high as the highest coolant run in the block and leave open while running for a bit to bleed the system. Coolant caps are also known to leak and fail - if they won't hold pressure, cooling will be bad....

 

Yep, have that.

 

Bit mickey mouse but have a small plastic hose that runs to a resevoir. Coolant goes up and down. Hose comes off right under the coolant cap.

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Sorry. Although Randy followed what I said, it wasn't really clear.

A decent timing light these days has a dial-back function. It used to be only Snap-On at several hundred bucks, but I got one a few years ago for $50. You attach as with older ones - clips to battery and a clamp pickup around #1 plug wire. You zero the light on the TDC mark. In neutral, then, you rev it to about 2000, which will get you full advance centrifugally. Then, dial back the timing light until it lines up with the TDC line. The panel in the light will read the number of degrees advance. A little tweaking and lock down. No playing under load or with mixture. Will do fine for commuter boat.

 

I recently broke my old Made in China timing light and so bought a new Made in China one. It is far fancier than the old one. I think I have that dial business. I very much like what you are saying here and will give it a try.

 

If this doesn't work I will offer my Visa card and get one of those Hough High-Performance Racing Engines.

 

After the Ford Windsor Shitheap the Hough model might be a lot of fun.

 

Might even be able to go water skiing in the wake ?

 

Thank you for this.

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the first question I'd ask - after my earlier one about whether he did a static or running check - is whether he'd ever checked how hot his inlet manifold was before he changed the distrib? Could be nothing is wrong, but until he answers that question, further speculation is pointless!

All this highly convoluted stuff, about what seems to me to be a very simple problem, does make me think that your AC thinkings are more convoluted than they need to be.

 

Randy and Marian ... many thanks for all this

 

I changed distributors because the pin holding the gear on the shaft kept breaking.

 

Did the intake manifold get hot before all this happened ?

 

Yea, but not this hot.

 

You have helped me think through this.

 

I only adjusted the timing at the dock and, with your reminders, I know have to get out the marina, crank it open and redo the timing without getting fingers under belts.

 

Randy, your comments have been very very helpful.

 

And Marian's too.

 

So, brothers and sisters, let peace prevail.

 

Besides, GGYC are dropping a nuclear device tomorrow and retarded ignition will soon be a thing of the past.

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I'm sorry if you thought my simple replies were overly complicated. Lots of damage is done by people that think a problem is simple. Your comment about the timing at idle being different than a static check with the engine stopped tels me that you don't have all that much experience.

That is sooooooooo funny, given that the people I consulted about Hastings prob have built more racing winning engines than I've had hot dinners. ROTFLMAO

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That is sooooooooo funny, given that the people I consulted about Hastings prob have built more racing winning engines than I've had hot dinners. ROTFLMAO

 

I'm wondering how you are checking the timing? Static or with the engine running? 10° to 6° would be correct for static, but if you are checking running I'd guess (knowing nothing about that particular engine) that 22° would be closer to being right.

 

Was this you or your experts?

 

This is not characteristic of US V-8's. It is characteristic of some of the British Leyland engines. From this, I concluded that perhaps you are not an expert, hence the comment. You say you consulted with experts, if this information came from them, they are not familiar with US V-8's either.

 

22 deg is no where near enough for full advance. There were some versions of the Chevy Small Block that ran full manifold vacuum to the distributor so the timing was in the 20 deg range with the engine running at idle, however, the timing is always checked with the vacuum line pulled of and plugged. The comment made no sense, so I assumed it came from a non-expert.

 

I've taken this to PM with Hastings so as not to bore everyone.

 

Your reply proves my point *you* don't have all that much experience. You asked people that do. (which was very nice of you) I don't think any of my replies were overly complicated, but I can see that they might seem that way to some people. If I've made a factual error, please advise me.

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There were some versions of the Chevy Small Block that ran full manifold vacuum to the distributor so the timing was in the 20 deg range with the engine running at idle, however, the timing is always checked with the vacuum line pulled off and plugged.

 

+1

 

Yes, that is the way you do it, big blocks too. This was usually pulled from the base of the carbuerator, depending on all the accessories that a model may have that used vacuum pressure. Older (early 60/late 50's) model small blocks might have been different due to the distributer being all mechanical. Some race distributers did/do use all mechanical advance, depending on the level of performance and brand.

 

Both classic small and big blocks used the same distributer. Been there, done that, got the greasy tee shirts to prove it!

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I never said it was.

 

Out of curiosity, what engine were you thinking of that runs 22 deg advance at an idle when the static timing is 6-10? That is a very unusual spec. Is the change due to the vacuum advance or the centrifugal advance or is it a electronic ignition that has an odd timing map?

 

I'm trying not to argue with you, I'm just asking the question.

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Was just waiting to see how long Marion and the rest of you went before you got mired in pointless invective... :lol:

Was just kidding guys! Didn't mean for the above to be taken as a challenge... :(

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Was just kidding guys! Didn't mean for the above to be taken as a challenge... :(

 

Well, life is full of surprises.

 

I used to commute via a sailboat. But, after several epic adventures banging to windward for nine hours I decided I had better uses for my time and would have to get a stink boat.

 

In the early years I did not like the look of the nasty V8. But I was forced to engage with the silly thing. It almost seemed sacriligeous for a sailing guy to own this oily monstrosity.

 

But learning can be quite intoxicating and I now enjoy bullshitting with grease monkeys on the dock about topics such as the above. I am also a bit chuffed by my ability to keep it going.

 

What is both disturbing and exhilirating is the fact engines resemble life. There is no "one right way." Like sailing, it is a system with many interactions. And I have immense respect for petrolheads that did "shop" at school and can talk authoritatively about cams and cranks. I do not have that kind of background but respect "really useful" knowledge.

 

Some people wonder why I continue struggling with the old Ford. It is a case of the "dog you know ..."

 

You folk were very generous to accommodate this mighty deviation from all things America's Cup.

 

I am encouraged by what can be learned here and, am sure that, when Marian and Hough converge in the SA Beer tent, they will set aside timing lights and hoist a glass of something good.

 

Thank you all !

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Some people wonder why I continue struggling with the old Ford. It is a case of the "dog you know ..."

 

Being a Chevy type, I hate to make an admission. The 351 Windsor is a pretty good engine for marine use. I had one in Buehler Turbocraft for 15 years or so. The only problems were of my making.

Fixing it occasionally is a lot better than replacing it - financially, at least.

Back to AC

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Out of curiosity, what engine were you thinking of that runs 22 deg advance at an idle when the static timing is 6-10? That is a very unusual spec. Is the change due to the vacuum advance or the centrifugal advance or is it a electronic ignition that has an odd timing map?

I'm trying not to argue with you, I'm just asking the question.

I'll PM you, but not tonight - up to neck in work - because this is too far off topic for here.

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I'll PM you, but not tonight - up to neck in work - because this is too far off topic for here.

Thanks :)

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Being a Chevy type, I hate to make an admission. The 351 Windsor is a pretty good engine for marine use. I had one in Buehler Turbocraft for 15 years or so. The only problems were of my making.

Fixing it occasionally is a lot better than replacing it - financially, at least.

Back to AC

 

 

Yea, I know. When I start getting really suspicious of what is happening I buy a "new" (i.e. rebuilt) block and bolt all the crap on.

 

When this first happened (years ago) a bloke asked me if I wanted the short or long block.

 

Bit like getting a coffee at Starbucks.

 

Now I know better, but usually grab a long block (about $1000) and bolt the other stuff on.

 

Much cheaper than new powerheads - like on big, fancy, complex and expensive HD outboards.

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