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Daisychain

Letter from J boats on J80 Keels

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I just recieved this email from J boats about a J80 that had lost its keel.

 

I do think that it is somewhat comforting that Jboats seems to be taking this serious.

 

Dear J/80 Owner,

 

 

 

We regret to report that on Saturday, while racing in the Sprit Fest Regatta

in Long Island, J/80 hull #21 broached with spinnaker up and in the process

lost its keel. Conditions were 22-25 knots with higher gusts. The incident

took place on the last leg of the first race, where hull #21 broached three

times, the third and final of which took place just after finishing.

Everyone aboard was thankfully safe. The J/80 was later towed very slowly

back into port and then hauled out.

 

The boat will be undergoing a thorough survey in the coming weeks, and a

full investigation will take place to determine, if possible, the cause of

the accident. We will endeavor to inform all J/80 owners what is learned

from the investigation. The J/80's 15 year record speaks for itself

regarding the boat's durability and seaworthiness. At this point, this is

believed to be an isolated incident.

 

 

 

Thank You,

 

Jeff Johnstone, Steve Hammerman, Kerry Kilngler, Kevin Hayes and Kristen Robinson

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there's a picture & story on the main page as well. Thanks for posting the letter.

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I just recieved this email from J boats about a J80 that had lost its keel.

 

I do think that it is somewhat comforting that Jboats seems to be taking this serious.

 

Dear J/80 Owner,

 

 

 

We regret to report that on Saturday, while racing in the Sprit Fest Regatta

in Long Island, J/80 hull #21 broached with spinnaker up and in the process

lost its keel. Conditions were 22-25 knots with higher gusts. The incident

took place on the last leg of the first race, where hull #21 broached three

times, the third and final of which took place just after finishing.

Everyone aboard was thankfully safe. The J/80 was later towed very slowly

back into port and then hauled out.

 

The boat will be undergoing a thorough survey in the coming weeks, and a

full investigation will take place to determine, if possible, the cause of

the accident. We will endeavor to inform all J/80 owners what is learned

from the investigation. The J/80's 15 year record speaks for itself

regarding the boat's durability and seaworthiness. At this point, this is

believed to be an isolated incident.

 

 

 

Thank You,

 

Jeff Johnstone, Steve Hammerman, Kerry Kilngler, Kevin Hayes and Kristen Robinson

 

/quote]

 

A good response from a solid company.

 

For the record, it's Kerry KLINGLER.

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For the record, it's Kerry KLINGLER.

 

Since when does he work for J boats? Or does he hold a position as class officer?

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Have sailed the J80 for a week in 25 knots most days, the French love them taking them on 150 mile offshores - the boats are strong and well made

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Have sailed the J80 for a week in 25 knots most days, the French love them taking them on 150 mile offshores - the boats are strong and well made

 

 

Maybe somebody should send that note to these crazy Swedish guys:

 

J/80 Across the Atlantic

 

They made the big crossing, but now are living on the thing down in the Caribbean.

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Have sailed the J80 for a week in 25 knots most days, the French love them taking them on 150 mile offshores - the boats are strong and well made

 

 

Until the keel falls off...

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I just recieved this email from J boats about a J80 that had lost its keel.

 

I do think that it is somewhat comforting that Jboats seems to be taking this serious.

 

Dear J/80 Owner,

 

 

 

We regret to report that on Saturday, while racing in the Sprit Fest Regatta

in Long Island, J/80 hull #21 broached with spinnaker up and in the process

lost its keel. Conditions were 22-25 knots with higher gusts. The incident

took place on the last leg of the first race, where hull #21 broached three

times, the third and final of which took place just after finishing.

Everyone aboard was thankfully safe. The J/80 was later towed very slowly

back into port and then hauled out.

 

The boat will be undergoing a thorough survey in the coming weeks, and a

full investigation will take place to determine, if possible, the cause of

the accident. We will endeavor to inform all J/80 owners what is learned

from the investigation. The J/80's 15 year record speaks for itself

regarding the boat's durability and seaworthiness. At this point, this is

believed to be an isolated incident.

 

 

 

Thank You,

 

Jeff Johnstone, Steve Hammerman, Kerry Kilngler, Kevin Hayes and Kristen Robinson

 

Very professional. Got to be happy with that response.

 

barefoot

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Very professional. Got to be happy with that response.

 

barefoot

Notice the new proactive "come clean" behavior on this J80 issue? Much improved over the cloak-of-silence approach use by Jboats in the past.

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It is nice to see this letter however it will be more interesting to see what becomes of it. It is very easy to create good PR as they have done now. It is much harder to actually follow through and to make the results known to all. After time passes people tend to forget and the company can get away with doing nothing.

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The owner will most likely receive a payment from his insurance company for the value of the boat on the date of loss. J Boats should accept the amount of this payment, no more, no less, as full payment on a new hull. Additionally, there should be no "contract of silence."

 

--Q

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Seriously, how often does a keel fall off a boat under 'normal' circumstances? This is the first I've ever heard of a single jboat with a keel failure. I own a Freedom and can tell you that TPI makes some pretty strong boats and the keels just don't drop off from a few broaches. There's got to be more to this story. Maybe it was dropped or suffered some trauma while in a sling. Maybe they ran into some real-estate at some point in the boat's life. The story, as reported, just seems to defy plausibility.

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The owner will most likely receive a payment from his insurance company for the value of the boat on the date of loss. J Boats should accept the amount of this payment, no more, no less, as full payment on a new hull. Additionally, there should be no "contract of silence."

 

--Q

 

This is not how a company should or even could work. If the boat was a year or two old, than yes i understand. At this point the boat has been raced for a few years and who know if its been set down hard or ran aground. I would never buy a J boat, unless i got hell of a deal on the right boat, but i don't think the blame should be put on them. If my tire blows and i go off the road should i sue "Cooper tires"?

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The hull in question is a 1993-94. This is one of the oldest J80's out there. If I owned one or was in the market for a J80 I would check the keel area for cracks.

 

I would not agree that Jboats owes the owner a new hull. The boat in question is well past the warrenty period. If the owner or salvager wants to buy a new hull and keel that is Jboats and TPI's option of making one available. They may not want to make a hull available and the wreck may need to be parted out. I hope that there is insurance and the owner does not have to remove and then re-attach everything. A used J80 is a much better idea.

I was happy to see that the wreck floated. Anyone know if a J80 will float if it fills with water? (Keel on, interior open)

 

like a greased refrigerator.

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Until the keel falls off...

 

I seem to remember more stories about M24's and M30's keels' breaking off than J80's...

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the first I've ever heard of a single jboat with a keel failure

 

Not true. The J-33 Charisma ejected it's keel into the Kaiwi channel ( between Oahu & Molokai ) about 6+ years ago.

 

The couple that owned it ( and thier little dog, too ) were taken off by a USCG helo on a nice, sunny day - and they STILL had trouble finding them with dark bottom paint - as they were able to get a MAYDAY off when they noticed the boat flooding and wallowing. They had been underway upwind with a reef & blade in moderate trades, discovered the problem, got turned around, made the call, and it rolled over. They sail another J now, for whatever that's worth.

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Sorry, I'm still stupified with taking the J/80 TRANSAT !

 

double-handed ? Ok, trailer it across Germany, France, Spain,Portugal - I'm still with you...

 

10 days, 2 hrs from Lago Portugal to Las Palmas, in the Canarys ? Yiikes.

 

20 days from there to Tabago ?

 

I am not worthy.

 

I thought that guy that singlehanded the J/22 from the West Coast to the East via the Panama Canal was nutty, ( but Goddam impressive from a Voyage-per-Dollar standpoint ) but this takes the V-p-D contest hands down. Not even a fucking dodger, Bitches.

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I stand corrected. But I suppose if you want to eliminate all possibility of the keel dropping off, a full keel is the way to go. Cabo Ricos still have 'em. So do Hans Christians and Babas and Folkboats; all pretty reliable in the keel department.

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If my tire blows and i go off the road should i sue "Cooper tires"?

 

Depends. Was the tire properly made? Have there been other incidents of blowouts due to faulty construction? Was there any damage to your vehicle? Was anyone injured? What was the severity of their injuries?

 

Sound familiar?

 

Google Firestone and Ford Motor Company. It's one of the largest product liability cases in history.

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Anyone know if a J80 will float if it fills with water? (Keel on, interior open)

 

The area under the v-berths is sealed, and supposedly, watertight. Though owners of many J/80's cut access ports into that area so that they can install a knotmeter.

 

But even with that, J doesn't promote the boats as unsinkable. I remember a specific statement from J that they were not unsinkable, though I can't put my hands on it right now.

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Just to clarify, This boat DID NOT SINK. It had a hole in the bottom where the keel used to be, and the four crew were sitting on top of it out of the water.The four crew got into the mark boat (rescue boat), and the boat was towed back to Sag Harbor on its side with the sails up. Do they sink? Just being an observer of one boat with a hole in the bottom that was towed 6 miles in 25 knot winds with no added flotation, I would say, no, they don't sink.

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I think the question was would they sink with the keel still on?

 

Just to clarify, This boat DID NOT SINK. It had a hole in the bottom where the keel used to be, and the four crew were sitting on top of it out of the water.The four crew got into the mark boat (rescue boat), and the boat was towed back to Sag Harbor on its side with the sails up. Do they sink? Just being an observer of one boat with a hole in the bottom that was towed 6 miles in 25 knot winds with no added flotation, I would say, no, they don't sink.

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This is the first I've ever heard of a single jboat with a keel failure.

 

Nothing against J boats and in fact race on them frequently but a 29 lost her keel down off Deltaville a bunch of years back.

I dont remember the details, maybe someone else here will.

 

I looked at the boat after it had been "resurrected"

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Nothing against J boats and in fact race on them frequently but a 29 lost her keel down off Deltaville a bunch of years back.

I dont remember the details, maybe someone else here will.

 

I looked at the boat after it had been "resurrected"

I don't remember that one... :huh: What was the name of the boat?

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I don't remember that one... :huh: What was the name of the boat?

 

I cant remember the name of the boat before they donated the keel to the bottom of the Rapp, but

after they got it off the bottom (after 2 weeks) they put a custom keel on her. After that they

named her "Ressurrection"

 

Paul Andersen told me to walk away very very quickly. :lol:

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at the risk of pissing anyone off, I dont know who owned the thing but in this case I would maybe want to put out a guess that it may maybe might've sorta been maintainance issues (read: neglect)

that cased the keel mishap....

 

but I wouldn't want to go out on a limb.

 

no way.

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at the risk of pissing anyone off, I dont know who owned the thing but in this case I would maybe want to put out a guess that it may maybe might've sorta been maintainance issues (read: neglect)

that cased the keel mishap....

 

but I wouldn't want to go out on a limb.

 

no way.

If you are talking about this J80, the boat was well maintained, well cared for and lightly raced. It has been owned by the same owner for almost 14 years although he is not the original owner.

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If you are talking about this J80, the boat was well maintained, well cared for and lightly raced. It has been owned by the same owner for almost 14 years although he is not the original owner.

 

nope...I was talking about a J29, (see post #30) in response to "Witch Cat" who said he'd never heard of a Jboat losing a keel.

This was quite a while ago.

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Not true. The J-33 Charisma ejected it's keel into the Kaiwi channel ( between Oahu & Molokai ) about 6+ years ago.

 

The couple that owned it ( and thier little dog, too ) were taken off by a USCG helo on a nice, sunny day - and they STILL had trouble finding them with dark bottom paint - as they were able to get a MAYDAY off when they noticed the boat flooding and wallowing. They had been underway upwind with a reef & blade in moderate trades, discovered the problem, got turned around, made the call, and it rolled over. They sail another J now, for whatever that's worth.

 

I've stayed at a beach front house facing the Molokai channel a nice day in the channel would be considered survival conditions by most.

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I stand corrected. But I suppose if you want to eliminate all possibility of the keel dropping off, a full keel is the way to go. Cabo Ricos still have 'em. So do Hans Christians and Babas and Folkboats; all pretty reliable in the keel department.

 

Either that or the grid thingy all the builders are so fast to list in their PR should be bolted to the keel vs keel bolts bolted to the skins between the grid. It makes zero sense to me why builders have structural grids bonded to the hulls and then they bolt the keel to the skin. If it were bolted to the grid- the grid would need to fail in a huge way and pull through the hull for the keel to drop off. Seems all the recent keel failures looking at the picts none of the boats had keel bolts running through internal grid structures and the keel sump/hullskin simply failed and the keel drops off.

 

When you hang heavy book cases/ light fixtures etc you bolt them to the studs behind the wall board if you mis and only attach to the wall board it will eventually let go.

 

Seems to me some basic design concepts being accepted as common practice by many builders need to be reviewed. The hull and keel may have been built great but clearly this trend of keels dropping off and taking the outer skins with them need to be attached in a smarter manner that doesn't rely on the skin as the sole supporting factor.

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The owner will most likely receive a payment from his insurance company for the value of the boat on the date of loss. J Boats should accept the amount of this payment, no more, no less, as full payment on a new hull. Additionally, there should be no "contract of silence."

 

--Q

 

 

I believe that boats have an agreed insured value. That what he gets.

 

TOG

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Dear 747 Owner,

 

We regret to report that on Saturday, while flying over the Rocky Mountains

in Colorado, a 747 fuselage #21 encounter turbulence and in the process

the wings fell off. Conditions were 22-25 knots with higher gusts. The incident

took place on the last leg of multi-stop trip across the continent. Everyone aboard

was unfortunately lost. The 747 was later collected very slowly into bags and will

be reassembled in Everett Washington.

 

The plane will be undergoing a thorough survey in the coming weeks, and a

full investigation will take place to determine, if possible, the cause of

the accident. We will endeavor to inform all 747 owners what is learned

from the investigation. This particular 747's 15 year record speaks for itself

regarding the plane's durability and airworthiness. At this point, this is

believed to be an isolated incident and any speculation about the design or

construction of the 747 is premature.

 

Thank You,

Boeing

 

 

 

 

 

 

I just recieved this email from J boats about a J80 that had lost its keel.

 

I do think that it is somewhat comforting that Jboats seems to be taking this serious.

 

Dear J/80 Owner,

 

 

 

We regret to report that on Saturday, while racing in the Sprit Fest Regatta

in Long Island, J/80 hull #21 broached with spinnaker up and in the process

lost its keel. Conditions were 22-25 knots with higher gusts. The incident

took place on the last leg of the first race, where hull #21 broached three

times, the third and final of which took place just after finishing.

Everyone aboard was thankfully safe. The J/80 was later towed very slowly

back into port and then hauled out.

 

The boat will be undergoing a thorough survey in the coming weeks, and a

full investigation will take place to determine, if possible, the cause of

the accident. We will endeavor to inform all J/80 owners what is learned

from the investigation. The J/80's 15 year record speaks for itself

regarding the boat's durability and seaworthiness. At this point, this is

believed to be an isolated incident.

 

 

 

Thank You,

 

Jeff Johnstone, Steve Hammerman, Kerry Kilngler, Kevin Hayes and Kristen Robinson

 

/quote]

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Dear 747 Owner,

 

We regret to report that on Saturday, while flying over the Rocky Mountains

in Colorado, a 747 fuselage #21 encounter turbulence and in the process

the wings fell off. Conditions were 22-25 knots with higher gusts. The incident

took place on the last leg of multi-stop trip across the continent. Everyone aboard

was unfortunately lost. The 747 was later collected very slowly into bags and will

be reassembled in Everett Washington.

 

The plane will be undergoing a thorough survey in the coming weeks, and a

full investigation will take place to determine, if possible, the cause of

the accident. We will endeavor to inform all 747 owners what is learned

from the investigation. This particular 747's 15 year record speaks for itself

regarding the plane's durability and airworthiness. At this point, this is

believed to be an isolated incident and any speculation about the design or

construction of the 747 is premature.

 

Thank You,

Boeing

 

Tell me Sir, what does a 747 crash have to do with sailing?

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If the J-80 was an airplane they would all be grounded pending a complete investigation, J-boats would come up with a fix, and YOU would pay for it before you could use your boat again.

 

Tell me Sir, what does a 747 crash have to do with sailing?

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Tell me Sir, what does a 747 crash have to do with sailing?

 

I don't get it either.

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I am taking a random guess that the OP thought that J-Boats should take this far more seriously like they would have to if they sold airplanes.

I really thought that letter was about right - no one yet knows why this happened and they aren't hiding anything that I can tell.

 

I don't get it either.

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I don't get it either.

 

No surprise there.

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If the J-80 was an airplane they would all be grounded pending a complete investigation, J-boats would come up with a fix, and YOU would pay for it before you could use your boat again.

 

The difference is that the guy flying the 747 has been in the left seat for several years, right seat for prob 10 before that, and either went to several years of school and/or several years of school/mil. Making him very close to perfect at controling his craft. Also with the 747 is a 35 page document for every time a screw was turned on it.

 

The 80 in question I was told by several that the keel on that day spent more time in the air than the masthead. I also think that there are very few people that own any boat that can show documentation of everything that has ever been done to their boat for the life of the boat.

 

I'm not saying keels should fall of. I'm just saying it is fucking retarded to compare a multimillion dollar, gov regulated aircraft to a J80.

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If the J-80 was an airplane they would all be grounded pending a complete investigation, J-boats would come up with a fix, and YOU would pay for it before you could use your boat again.

 

 

Boats, cars and planes are all transportation devices. We have a history in the US of investigating transportation accidents and taking action to correct them. From the big airline crashes, to the small planes to the gas tanks that leak on cars and trucks.

 

The point is over the last two decades we have moved backwards. We allowed and in many cases supported designers and builders in cutting corners to where our keels are falling off new modern boats. They seem to stay on decades old boats even after much abuse.

 

It is time to stop and figure our why. Until we do some subset of boats should be left at the dock or put on the hard until we know which ones are safe. Either we do it ourselves in the tradition of self policing ir wait for the TSBU or the insurance industry to do it for us.

 

Would you underwrite a J80 or Cape Fear with your own equity today? Would you let your daughter sail on one?

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Boats, cars and planes are all transportation devices. We have a history in the US of investigating transportation accidents and taking action to correct them. From the big airline crashes, to the small planes to the gas tanks that leak on cars and trucks.

 

The point is over the last two decades we have moved backwards. We allowed and in many cases supported designers and builders in cutting corners to where our keels are falling off new modern boats. They seem to stay on decades old boats even after much abuse.

 

It is time to stop and figure our why. Until we do some subset of boats should be left at the dock or put on the hard until we know which ones are safe. Either we do it ourselves in the tradition of self policing ir wait for the TSBU or the insurance industry to do it for us.

 

Would you underwrite a J80 or Cape Fear with your own equity today? Would you let your daughter sail on one?

 

the Creeping Lunacy advances one more step ^^^^^^

what is this, Murreletto Day on SA or something?

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Be VERY careful what you wish for - you might get it!

 

I am not a fan of under-engineered boats and post many criticisms of them here.

That said, be VERY afraid of FAA style regulations for boats.

Like I said before, if the J-80 was an airplane and you owned one it would now be a lawn ornament until the FAA decided what YOU need to fix with YOUR money before you can sail your boat again.

Ask any pilot how much fun it is to get an AD (directive to fix your airplane) that might cost a substantial fraction of what your airplane cost in the first place. It isn't like a car recall -- YOU pay, not the builder :angry:

 

Boats, cars and planes are all transportation devices. We have a history in the US of investigating transportation accidents and taking action to correct them. From the big airline crashes, to the small planes to the gas tanks that leak on cars and trucks.

 

The point is over the last two decades we have moved backwards. We allowed and in many cases supported designers and builders in cutting corners to where our keels are falling off new modern boats. They seem to stay on decades old boats even after much abuse.

 

It is time to stop and figure our why. Until we do some subset of boats should be left at the dock or put on the hard until we know which ones are safe. Either we do it ourselves in the tradition of self policing ir wait for the TSBU or the insurance industry to do it for us.

 

Would you underwrite a J80 or Cape Fear with your own equity today? Would you let your daughter sail on one?

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if CanSir has ever written anything on these boards that isn't complete bullshit, please provide a link.

Complete troll..ignore.

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Boats, cars and planes are all transportation devices. We have a history in the US of investigating transportation accidents and taking action to correct them. From the big airline crashes, to the small planes to the gas tanks that leak on cars and trucks.

 

The point is over the last two decades we have moved backwards. We allowed and in many cases supported designers and builders in cutting corners to where our keels are falling off new modern boats. They seem to stay on decades old boats even after much abuse.

 

It is time to stop and figure our why. Until we do some subset of boats should be left at the dock or put on the hard until we know which ones are safe. Either we do it ourselves in the tradition of self policing ir wait for the TSBU or the insurance industry to do it for us.

 

Would you underwrite a J80 or Cape Fear with your own equity today? Would you let your daughter sail on one?

 

 

Grow a fucking sack!!

 

You ever read the back of a ski ticket. I think the first line is that skiing is inharently dangerous. Sailing should have warnings like this for pussies like you. I know keels might fall off, rudder stocks might break, rigs will tumble. That is what makes it dangerous and is part of the fun. If you are worried about keels, buy an Island Packet or some fucking Ferro Cement piece of shit and try to race it. You'll find it prob will be boring as fuck.

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That is another way to put it :lol:

 

Grow a fucking sack!!

 

You ever read the back of a ski ticket. I think the first line is that skiing is inharently dangerous. Sailing should have warnings like this for pussies like you. I know keels might fall off, rudder stocks might break, rigs will tumble. That is what makes it dangerous and is part of the fun. If you are worried about keels, buy an Island Packet or some fucking Ferro Cement piece of shit and try to race it. You'll find it prob will be boring as fuck.

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That is another way to put it :lol:

 

 

This might be the first time you agreed with me. :P

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Grow a fucking sack!!

 

You ever read the back of a ski ticket. I think the first line is that skiing is inharently dangerous. Sailing should have warnings like this for pussies like you. I know keels might fall off, rudder stocks might break, rigs will tumble. That is what makes it dangerous and is part of the fun. If you are worried about keels, buy an Island Packet or some fucking Ferro Cement piece of shit and try to race it. You'll find it prob will be boring as fuck.

 

gee...I wish I had said that.

polite applause, jrpyts

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Over the last 30 years sailing Star boats on 3 continents I have never heard of a Star keel failing off. I also have never found the Star boring. During the seventies and early eightys I never saw a keel fall off at the SORC going across the gulf stream. We did see some of the early idiots loose some rudders. We should have started drawn the line right there.

 

Why don't you get a combination of balls and brains and do the right thing here. There is no reason why we cannot have both sound and great sailing yachts.

 

 

Grow a fucking sack!!

 

You ever read the back of a ski ticket. I think the first line is that skiing is inharently dangerous. Sailing should have warnings like this for pussies like you. I know keels might fall off, rudder stocks might break, rigs will tumble. That is what makes it dangerous and is part of the fun. If you are worried about keels, buy an Island Packet or some fucking Ferro Cement piece of shit and try to race it. You'll find it prob will be boring as fuck.

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Boats, cars and planes are all transportation devices. We have a history in the US of investigating transportation accidents and taking action to correct them. From the big airline crashes, to the small planes to the gas tanks that leak on cars and trucks.

 

The point is over the last two decades we have moved backwards. We allowed and in many cases supported designers and builders in cutting corners to where our keels are falling off new modern boats. They seem to stay on decades old boats even after much abuse.

 

It is time to stop and figure our why. Until we do some subset of boats should be left at the dock or put on the hard until we know which ones are safe. Either we do it ourselves in the tradition of self policing ir wait for the TSBU or the insurance industry to do it for us.

 

Would you underwrite a J80 or Cape Fear with your own equity today? Would you let your daughter sail on one?

 

I would underwrite a J80 and/or Cape Fear with my own equity today. I would and have let my daughter(s) sail on one (J80).

 

The people in the J80 case are OK, and the boat's path will be determined. The Cape Fear is an absolute tragedy for all involved especially the loved ones of Mr. Stone, and that's boats path will be determined. I wish all involved the best.

 

But let's think about these events and some of the posts here. Sailing, like any other sport or endeavor, can be dangerous. There is a certain amount of risk in everything we do, from stepping out of the bathtub to backing your car out of your driveway. Going sailing in 20-25 or at night is risky, regardless of how well prepared your or your equipment are or think you are.

 

Listen, maybe that J80 was built on a Friday after lunch? Maybe there were some new guys working on it that day? How will we know? How can we be absolutely sure that every single boat, situation, and circumstance has been covered?

 

We can't.

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Actually, everybody was pretty sure that Mary E sank when the mast pushed the hull apart at the joint. The hull was in two sections and whatever went was right under the mast step. That was 1976.

 

As for keels falling off, I'm sure there are as almost as many reasons as there are keels. Part of the annual haul out process for any balsa core boat needs to be playing woodpecker around the keel sump and the rudder bearings. There is a lot of stress in both areas, in particular if the boat has been grounded. Even if it hasn't, any area that lets water in will lead to catastrophic failure if you don't catch it. It can be in the layup.

 

I'll leave canting keels to someone who knows something about them.

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Over the last 30 years sailing Star boats on 3 continents I have never heard of a Star keel failing off. I also have never found the Star boring. During the seventies and early eightys I never saw a keel fall off at the SORC going across the gulf stream. We did see some of the early idiots loose some rudders. We should have started drawn the line right there.

 

Why don't you get a combination of balls and brains and do the right thing here. There is no reason why we cannot have both sound and great sailing yachts.

 

 

I noticed you stayed away from the rigs tumbling topic. Hmmm?? I'll leave that be since I love the Star as well.

 

As far as not being able to have sound and great sailing yachts, well......

 

I ask you to start designing em. Here's what I want: 26 foot, easy to sail with 3, strong OD class out of the box, hold a respectable resale value, needs a big enough cockpit to pack a bunch of buddies or chicks in it, needs a bit of a stabbin cabin, that stabbin cabin needs to be suitable for a little tike to hang out in while sailing in case a little one should ever arrive, needs to be semi affordable out of the box, needs to be trailerable enough to do everything from KW to stuff on Lake Champlain and maybe even TX stuff, oh and it needs to last FOR FUCKING EVER!!!!

 

You have any thoughts on a boat that fits the bill?

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As far as not being able to have sound and great sailing yachts, well......

 

I ask you to start designing em. Here's what I want: 26 foot, easy to sail with 3, strong OD class out of the box, hold a respectable resale value, needs a big enough cockpit to pack a bunch of buddies or chicks in it, needs a bit of a stabbin cabin, that stabbin cabin needs to be suitable for a little tike to hang out in while sailing in case a little one should ever arrive, needs to be semi affordable out of the box, needs to be trailerable enough to do everything from KW to stuff on Lake Champlain and maybe even TX stuff, oh and it needs to last FOR FUCKING EVER!!!!

 

You have any thoughts on a boat that fits the bill?

 

Sounds like the perfect, boat. Doesn't exist.

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Sounds like the perfect, boat. Doesn't exist.

 

Antrim 25 - already exists though what do you consider affordable?

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Cal 25?

 

 

I noticed you stayed away from the rigs tumbling topic. Hmmm?? I'll leave that be since I love the Star as well.

 

As far as not being able to have sound and great sailing yachts, well......

 

I ask you to start designing em. Here's what I want: 26 foot, easy to sail with 3, strong OD class out of the box, hold a respectable resale value, needs a big enough cockpit to pack a bunch of buddies or chicks in it, needs a bit of a stabbin cabin, that stabbin cabin needs to be suitable for a little tike to hang out in while sailing in case a little one should ever arrive, needs to be semi affordable out of the box, needs to be trailerable enough to do everything from KW to stuff on Lake Champlain and maybe even TX stuff, oh and it needs to last FOR FUCKING EVER!!!!

 

You have any thoughts on a boat that fits the bill?

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I ask you to start designing em. Here's what I want: 26 foot, easy to sail with 3, strong OD class out of the box, hold a respectable resale value, needs a big enough cockpit to pack a bunch of buddies or chicks in it, needs a bit of a stabbin cabin, that stabbin cabin needs to be suitable for a little tike to hang out in while sailing in case a little one should ever arrive, needs to be semi affordable out of the box, needs to be trailerable enough to do everything from KW to stuff on Lake Champlain and maybe even TX stuff, oh and it needs to last FOR FUCKING EVER!!!!

 

You have any thoughts on a boat that fits the bill?

 

 

Okay. This one is too easy for Guy. Which one of you will first suggest "TBTCNBM" (The 26 Foot Boat that Can Not Be Mentioned.)

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Over the last 30 years sailing Star boats on 3 continents I have never heard of a Star keel failing off. I also have never found the Star boring. During the seventies and early eightys I never saw a keel fall off at the SORC going across the gulf stream. We did see some of the early idiots loose some rudders. We should have started drawn the line right there.

 

Why don't you get a combination of balls and brains and do the right thing here. There is no reason why we cannot have both sound and great sailing yachts.

Do you have to wear a helmet in your daily life, or does the tin-foil hat provide enough protection? Sailing as a sport, or method of transportation if you prefer, isn't that dangerous in the grand scheme of things. I'd be willing to bet that bicycles kill a lot more people than sailboats do, but I've never heard of the government telling me I can't ride my bike just because someone else got hurt.

 

I think the smartest option for you is to go ahead and bubble wrap your house, then remain indoors. The world can be a spooky place when you don't have a government agency there to tell you if you're safe or not.

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I would underwrite a J80 and/or Cape Fear with my own equity today. I would and have let my daughter(s) sail on one (J80).

 

The people in the J80 case are OK, and the boat's path will be determined. The Cape Fear is an absolute tragedy for all involved especially the loved ones of Mr. Stone, and that's boats path will be determined. I wish all involved the best.

 

But let's think about these events and some of the posts here. Sailing, like any other sport or endeavor, can be dangerous. There is a certain amount of risk in everything we do, from stepping out of the bathtub to backing your car out of your driveway. Going sailing in 20-25 or at night is risky, regardless of how well prepared your or your equipment are or think you are.

 

Listen, maybe that J80 was built on a Friday after lunch? Maybe there were some new guys working on it that day? How will we know? How can we be absolutely sure that every single boat, situation, and circumstance has been covered?

 

We can't.

 

Agreed

I would still deliver a cape fear, anywhere.

maybe i hit a storm, maybe i wrap up a lobster pot in the prop, maybe i lose and recover a crew member in heavy seas, maybe the rigs comes down, maybe i hit a container, maybe someone gets badly hurt far from shore,

you get the point, do you always trust that the boat will hold together no matter what??? whose fault is it really when it does'nt??? this is all crap, shit will happen and at the worst possible time, you must be ready for anything out there

More heavy storm offshore emergency procedures education. many many people join the sport of offshore racing every year, the safety at sea program is fantastic, yet i think there is more that can be done.

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Cal 25?

 

Forgot. It has to plane and be quick.

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Do you have to wear a helmet in your daily life, or does the tin-foil hat provide enough protection? Sailing as a sport, or method of transportation if you prefer, isn't that dangerous in the grand scheme of things. I'd be willing to bet that bicycles kill a lot more people than sailboats do, but I've never heard of the government telling me I can't ride my bike just because someone else got hurt.

 

I think the smartest option for you is to go ahead and bubble wrap your house, then remain indoors. The world can be a spooky place when you don't have a government agency there to tell you if you're safe or not.

 

 

Don't pick on him just cuz his name's Stephan.

 

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Here's what I want: 26 foot, easy to sail with 3, strong OD class out of the box, hold a respectable resale value, needs a big enough cockpit to pack a bunch of buddies or chicks in it, needs a bit of a stabbin cabin, that stabbin cabin needs to be suitable for a little tike to hang out in while sailing in case a little one should ever arrive, needs to be semi affordable out of the box, needs to be trailerable enough to do everything from KW to stuff on Lake Champlain and maybe even TX stuff, oh and it needs to last FOR FUCKING EVER!!!!

 

You have any thoughts on a boat that fits the bill?

Easy....put a 2 foot scoop on the back of a Moore 24.....gotta take it off for one-design though.

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I guess you are back to the Mac 26 then.

Unless you mean plane under sail :lol:

 

 

Well I did put a new transom on my cal made outta 3 layers of one inch BW26 coosa with a bigger engine hole in it so I can cram a 225 horse on her.

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Easy....put a 2 foot scoop on the back of a Moore 24.....gotta take it off for one-design though.

 

 

If I end up on the wrong side of the country cuz o my GF, I will def be looking into la Moore 24.

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Here's what I want: 26 foot, easy to sail with 3, strong OD class out of the box, hold a respectable resale value, needs a big enough cockpit to pack a bunch of buddies or chicks in it, needs a bit of a stabbin cabin, that stabbin cabin needs to be suitable for a little tike to hang out in while sailing in case a little one should ever arrive, needs to be semi affordable out of the box, needs to be trailerable enough to do everything from KW to stuff on Lake Champlain and maybe even TX stuff, oh and it needs to last FOR FUCKING EVER!!!!

 

You have any thoughts on a boat that fits the bill?

Trippy 26.

Too bad they didnt catch on...

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Trippy 26.

Too bad they didnt catch on...

 

 

Not trying to be a wise ass but you sail em 3 up??

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Although they didn't plane, there were a bunch of really nice 24 to 26 foot boats available in the early 70's. They all had nice accomodations and were bulletproof. The J-24 wiped them all out.

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Boats, cars and planes are all transportation devices. We have a history in the US of investigating transportation accidents and taking action to correct them. From the big airline crashes, to the small planes to the gas tanks that leak on cars and trucks.

 

The point is over the last two decades we have moved backwards. We allowed and in many cases supported designers and builders in cutting corners to where our keels are falling off new modern boats. They seem to stay on decades old boats even after much abuse.

 

It is time to stop and figure our why. Until we do some subset of boats should be left at the dock or put on the hard until we know which ones are safe. Either we do it ourselves in the tradition of self policing ir wait for the TSBU or the insurance industry to do it for us.

 

Would you underwrite a J80 or Cape Fear with your own equity today? Would you let your daughter sail on one?

 

My brother has a saying that makes a lot of sense

 

"If it floats, flys or fucks RENT IT!"

 

That seems to apply to your thinking here.

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