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unfix8r

Flying Dutchman rebuild/ remodel questions and answers

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Welcome to this thread, I'm going to start working on rigging and sailing an old FD. There are lots of contributors to SA that have FD's, it just seems like the right thing to do to have a place on the SA sitte devoted to this topic. I'm hoping that USA-7 and others will post their FD comments here in one spot, and then we ( newbies) only have to look in one spot for info/ updates/ stupid questions-answer sessions. For kicks I'll go first, please feel free to post pictures, which seem the best way to learn how things work around this boat.

 

Tomorrow I plan on posting pics of my spinnaker pole launching setup for the FD... it should work on other boats as well. I'm deeply indebted to USA-7 for hos ideas, and while I'm not implementing them perfectly, it may lay the groundwork for future, faster FD's.

 

Again, feel free to contribute FD pics and ideas here. To start off with, this is the boat I'm rebuilding.

post-17196-1214425733_thumb.jpg

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Too late. You're not the first and you won't be the last.

 

But since we love these projects, we'll keep coming back to this thread too to see your progress.

 

You don't have to wait until your crew gets to be 6'6" and 230# to get him used to the boat. A friend of mine took his 80# son out. I helped get the kid up to speed on the pointy end. My friend had spent all his time at the lazy end of the boat. After a couple hours sailing with three, I got on the Swift and chased them around. I've rarely seen a father and son have so much fun together. Both of them were high as a kite when the day was done.

 

Best of luck and you can use the searc tool to find the other threads.

 

7 and others will most certainly post here with very helpful hints, recommendations, and links to archives of past FD stuff.

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SD it looks like you have your work cut out for you, but of course I have been known to have been wrong. In any case I'm sure that we all would love to see your work.

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My, oh my. What make is it?

 

That's the strangest FD I've ever seen .. Side seats for the crew? Footstraps up by the shrouds?? WTF?

 

Never mind. FD's are the most magnificent dinghy class ever designed. Well worth restoring.

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My, oh my. What make is it?

 

That's the strangest FD I've ever seen .. Side seats for the crew? Footstraps up by the shrouds?? WTF?

 

Never mind. FD's are the most magnificent dinghy class ever designed. Well worth restoring.

A distinctly American approach, putting bench seats in an FD. :P Advance Boats works of Kansas City, Missouri, c.1963-1969. About 170 built.

advance63dwgx.jpg

 

they also built FJs and other less glamourous craft.

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As for a new thread, I agree I'm late, but instead of one or two threads when I search "Flying Dutchman", now there's one with an OFFICIAL title. Yippee!

 

UPDATE ON "I Don't Know":

 

TODAY:

Today's job was to take the mast down, to rerun the topping lift for the spin pole system, and to see if the jib halyard length is close to correct. I don't think I'll run an elastic downhaul for the pole, as my experience on Thistles and I-14 OD's shows the cleating hook system is more than enough with a fractional spinnaker. I think I'm just going to put a hook on the boom to hold the pole from bouncing around. I'm also measuring out the footstraps for the skipper. With my little dude only pushing 40# now, I think he'll need all the help he can get from his fat-assed dad!

 

TUESDAY:

I bought a new(er) trailer, because the axle on the one I had, well, I hit it with a hammer and it.. almost broke in half. Whoops! I wonder how I'm going to fit it into the recycling bin?

The new trailer was built for a flat-bottomed motorboat, so I thought it'd be perfect for the FD. I think I'll grind it and paint it white, simply to offset the boat's fire engine red color. So now I've got a much less rusty trailer, and am about to install new bunks on it. There's rollers available from the old existing trailer, but my experience is that they deform soft hulls, like this piece of shit. Any ideas, you guys? Should I fab up some 2x4's and run them the length of the boat, or install the rollers? I'm thinking a big roller in the back to guide the boat onto, then carpet-covered 2x4's (berber? shag? wool? Dupont Teflon-coated? ;) ) for the "fuselage" of the boat.

 

LAST WEEK:

 

The Harken track arrived in the mail last week and I put on, but it's only 32 inches long... not much travel. Well, at least it LOOKS good. The windward sheeting car looks like it belongs on a much bigger boat, we use the same one on a Santana 27 I race on all the time. Today when I get home I'll post the pictures. 7, you said something about using elastic for the take up on the traveler? I can't imagine that's big-diameter stuff.

 

Another point: Craigshelper.com.... You can search the country on all the Craigslists for anything you want, it's an easy way to find available FD's. The funniest one is available in Phoenix, complete with motor and ? DEPTH SOUNDER ? WOW. How many people can say they troll on their FD? I wonder if it comes with downriggers, too.

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I was thinking you are right on the transverse bunks, seems easier than the longitudinal option. The car top option looks exciting... Maybe I should incorporate an a trebuchet to do a true "launch", while I'm at it. ?

 

In running the topping lift last night, I lost it in the mast, and will probably spend an hour trying to rerun that piece of string. My uninterested 4 year old finally got bored of watching and I had to quit... will post updates.

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I was thinking you are right on the transverse bunks, seems easier than the longitudinal option. The car top option looks exciting... Maybe I should incorporate an a trebuchet to do a true "launch", while I'm at it. ?

 

In running the topping lift last night, I lost it in the mast, and will probably spend an hour trying to rerun that piece of string. My uninterested 4 year old finally got bored of watching and I had to quit... will post updates.

dude, never miss an opportunity to buy tools.

you need an electricians snake to run halyards.

36582009-177x150-0-0.jpg

now the job will take 60 seconds.

 

I carry one of these in my kit. it is one of the most borrowed tools of all time.

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a bunk trailer needs two bunks at roughtly 1/3 and 2/3 the length of the boat. when youve decided where the boat needs to be on trailer to give you a decent tung weight, locate two likely spots on the frame of the trailer to land the two bunks. make a pencil line across the hull from gunwale to gunwale at those two spots. roll the boat over on its back and lay two giant garbage bags across the marked locations. getsome automotive fiberglass cloth and gooj, and make a single course about a foot wide. make some kind of ears out of PT 2x6 or something where it can be secured to the frame, and glass that on. once dry trim and paint. glue some astro turf on the insides. viola. custom bunk trailer. take you two hours.

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Brilliant! Good idea with the bunks. I'll just may end up doing that. instead of my much lamer idea(s). God knows I don't want the boat to deform more than it already is. Maybe what I REALLY need is a good grassy place to flip the boat over. It's a bitch to do solo, since I'm kind of all on my own here.

 

The electrician's snake is a fabulous idea, I was thinking I might end up using a plumber's snake (its what I've got), but then I thought, hell, how many times am I going to adjust the topping lift? I'm thinking instead to simply hogtie bungee to the sheave, hook it to the pole, and have it set to the same tension all the time. It seemed to work on my I-14, and it would eliminate another piece of string simultaneously. Brilliant? Stupid? They seem so close.

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Brilliant! Good idea with the bunks. I'll just may end up doing that. instead of my much lamer idea(s). God knows I don't want the boat to deform more than it already is. Maybe what I REALLY need is a good grassy place to flip the boat over. It's a bitch to do solo, since I'm kind of all on my own here.

 

The electrician's snake is a fabulous idea, I was thinking I might end up using a plumber's snake (its what I've got), but then I thought, hell, how many times am I going to adjust the topping lift? I'm thinking instead to simply hogtie bungee to the sheave, hook it to the pole, and have it set to the same tension all the time. It seemed to work on my I-14, and it would eliminate another piece of string simultaneously. Brilliant? Stupid? They seem so close.

You want a solid adjustable, from both sides of the cokpit, topping lift. A shcok cord won't make it when you get in lighter air.

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Remember I'm flying an older, smaller spinnaker.. will that make a difference?

 

Wait, I started this thread to listen, not to talk, right? So I'll take 7's advice and go get an electrician's snake to thread through a new topper. I am having some trouble balancing where all these little pieces of string are going bilaterally... there's the traveler, the centerboard, the topping lift, the genoa halyard, and the forestay. I do have consoles of four that have cheekblocks and camcleats, mounting them presents some issues with the way my floppy Flying Dutchman was built. Maybe just prioritize? Go Unilateral?

 

Pictures will be on hold for a little while... someone stole it and my iPod/amplifier when I was in the garage, going back and forth to the boat. RRRRRR! And I live (I thought) in a nice area.

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Brilliant! Good idea with the bunks. I'll just may end up doing that. instead of my much lamer idea(s). God knows I don't want the boat to deform more than it already is. Maybe what I REALLY need is a good grassy place to flip the boat over. It's a bitch to do solo, since I'm kind of all on my own here.

The electrician's snake is a fabulous idea, I was thinking I might end up using a plumber's snake (its what I've got), but then I thought, hell, how many times am I going to adjust the topping lift? I'm thinking instead to simply hogtie bungee to the sheave, hook it to the pole, and have it set to the same tension all the time. It seemed to work on my I-14, and it would eliminate another piece of string simultaneously. Brilliant? Stupid? They seem so close.

 

For the cost of a lecture on why you really should own another type of boat (just nod ocassionally and utter "uh-huh") and a couple of beers, you ought to be able to recruit a little muscle from one of the other dinghy fleets when needed. Of course, offer to reciprocate so you can drink someone else's beer and talk about how wonder FDs truly are.

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dude, never miss an opportunity to buy tools.

you need an electricians snake to run halyards.

36582009-177x150-0-0.jpg

now the job will take 60 seconds.

 

I carry one of these in my kit. it is one of the most borrowed tools of all time.

 

Any offcast piece of 1x19 wire will also suffice. Suggest snagging the backstay from a J24. They won't miss it.

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best ive had for runing halyards is a wee bit of bobbly chain, like you get on bags and stuff sometimes for the sails tags. That on the end of wipping twine works pretty good

 

But then after you loose a few bits in the mast you get very good and paraniod about tying stoppers on the end of evrything

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Ive been listening, I have a whole mast to do over the southern winter. The electricians snake sounds like a good idea, but unfourtunately my crew although he is an electrician is also Dutch but has lived here long enough to know how the technology works here. so we will probably use some no8 wire

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I am having some trouble balancing where all these little pieces of string are going bilaterally... there's the traveler, the centerboard, the topping lift, the genoa halyard, and the forestay. I do have consoles of four that have cheekblocks and camcleats, mounting them presents some issues with the way my floppy Flying Dutchman was built. Maybe just prioritize? Go Unilateral?

 

I wouldn't have thought you would use consoles on this setup, they are more for the false floor models. Your setup should be more like a 470 with turning blocks down on the hull on the side of the centrecase and separate cleats on the deck.

 

Important controls that should be at hand on a FD are traveller, checkstays, vang and genoa halyard. Your forestay should be on a bungee thingy under the foredeck, and is only there to hold up your mast whilst rigging , or when your genoa halyard purchase setup shits itself ( usually in 30+knots and big seas! :P ).

 

Remember - the secret for enjoyable FD sailing is the ability to depower quickly and efficiently!

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I wouldn't have thought you would use consoles on this setup, they are more for the false floor models. Your setup should be more like a 470 with turning blocks down on the hull on the side of the centrecase and separate cleats on the deck.

 

Important controls that should be at hand on a FD are traveller, checkstays, vang and genoa halyard. Your forestay should be on a bungee thingy under the foredeck, and is only there to hold up your mast whilst rigging , or when your genoa halyard purchase setup shits itself ( usually in 30+knots and big seas! :P ).

 

Remember - the secret for enjoyable FD sailing is the ability to depower quickly and efficiently!

 

Thanks for the input you guys.. I thought about buying the fish, then the magnet idea, but found that an old section of stainless shroud (maybe genoa wire) worked brilliantl. Now I'm just going to put stoppers on everything coming out of the mast! (and now I can spend my $ on more turning block)

 

Yeah, I'm looking at the consoles and seeing that they worked great on on the double hull of the Bob Hoare boat I had... now I just have a bunch of cheek blocks and cam cleats.

 

I guess I'll figure it out. The spin pole is now reay to go, I riveted in a clip to hold the pole to it so I don't have to deal with it flopping around all the time. The trailer will wait a little while until i can flip the boat over.... Here's Monday's question for everyone...

 

Rudder/ Pintles:

 

How much stress is on the ass end of the boat? There is a stiffened area for the pintles and gudgeons, but of course, they don't match up to the holes for the replacement I'm putting on there. It's a funky arrangement, of course it's custom just like everything on these boats. How much rudderblade should be in the water, or how much space between the rear deck and the tiller? Am I even asking the question correctly? Being "consciously incompetent" sucks.

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As for flipping the boat I found a grassy knoll, a quiet little place to flip the boat, epoxy up a piece of bunking material, and wax philosophic about how much this Dutch creation is the best and worst dinghy of all time. I've decided to pimp out the trailer after the boat's done... it can sit on rollers for a little while. I think there's a problem when I spend more time working on the trailer than actually sailing, though. I think I'd RATHER BE SAILING, as would we all.

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You can rig the consoles, which are the most convenient, or put some double controlled ramps under the main traveler. They would be oriented int he vertical axis. That way you can adjust from either side and can avoid the high crew traffic area. You will be more pleased without cleats on your deck. You can run/locate multiple ramps under the mainsheet, the angled cleats will be located on the vertical rather than the horizontal. Usually you would fabricate the ramp out of stainless.

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Rudder/ Pintles:

 

How much stress is on the ass end of the boat? There is a stiffened area for the pintles and gudgeons, but of course, they don't match up to the holes for the replacement I'm putting on there. It's a funky arrangement, of course it's custom just like everything on these boats. How much rudderblade should be in the water, or how much space between the rear deck and the tiller? Am I even asking the question correctly? Being "consciously incompetent" sucks.

All the FD's I've seen have the tiller right down to the deck with just enoug clearance that it doesn't drag or catch on things.

 

FWIW, I've been on the over build it side on gudgeons for some time. You'd think you could go lighter but I've always found something very stron to be the better option. Loosing your rudder when trying to pump up onto a wave or durring a gybe can put a bit of a damper onto an otherwise wonderful sail. FD rudders are fairly good sized and at times the presure can be great. Back everything very well. If you get any play, that will increase the speed at which things go south. Use large backing plates if they arent'already built into the boat and use very large washer on top of that. Since the boat is not up to worlds standards, an added ounce in the back end won't matter and if it is a bit soft there, added support will help more than it hurts.

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Thanks for the input you guys.. I thought about buying the fish, then the magnet idea, but found that an old section of stainless shroud (maybe genoa wire) worked brilliantl. Now I'm just going to put stoppers on everything coming out of the mast! (and now I can spend my $ on more turning block)

 

Yeah, I'm looking at the consoles and seeing that they worked great on on the double hull of the Bob Hoare boat I had... now I just have a bunch of cheek blocks and cam cleats.

 

I guess I'll figure it out. The spin pole is now reay to go, I riveted in a clip to hold the pole to it so I don't have to deal with it flopping around all the time. The trailer will wait a little while until i can flip the boat over.... Here's Monday's question for everyone...

 

Rudder/ Pintles:

 

How much stress is on the ass end of the boat? There is a stiffened area for the pintles and gudgeons, but of course, they don't match up to the holes for the replacement I'm putting on there. It's a funky arrangement, of course it's custom just like everything on these boats. How much rudderblade should be in the water, or how much space between the rear deck and the tiller? Am I even asking the question correctly? Being "consciously incompetent" sucks.

 

 

transom hardware . The SeaSure stuff is in pretty widespead use, but is kind of expensive. 5/16" pins are fine.

The RaceLite 390 system would be quite adaquate also. the RL gudgeons lay pretty close to the boat. I would suggest putting standoffs of 3/8" mahogany under them.

 

 

you should read the class rules. they are pretty infromative including a lot of pictures!

the blade should extend 810mm below the transom (max allowed).

post-11767-1214844686_thumb.jpg

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I've got to take a photo of this setup... I think it's strong "enough" now, but I think new backing plates are in order here. USA777, I feel like a total dork not thinking of taking the consoles and mounting them vertically on the traveler supports. Duh. All I needed to do was look at the problem from a 90 degree different angle.

 

Speaking of which, I have some "line covers" for an FD I won't be using... anyone interested? They keep you from stepping on all the pieces of string, and look really nice. They were also in the 1972 Olympics, if you're into that. Anyone interested? I'll send them free of charge, you donate to USAFD. IF I come across any other hardware, I'll post it.

 

7, thanks again. I will get going on pictures. I'll probably have the backing plates made today, and mount the hardware tomorrow, oops, no I won't. Seattle's Duck Dodge is tomorrow. Dad's out in London, so I get the BIG BOAT to myself and my friends. Red wine, white wine and the blues.... gotta love fermentation and sailing. Anyway, the rudder will go on this week.

 

At Nationals, or any other sanctioned event, if you don't measure up, do they give you a chance to fix the problem before the race, or is it one shot? Just wondering.

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I've got to take a photo of this setup... I think it's strong "enough" now, but I think new backing plates are in order here. USA777, I feel like a total dork not thinking of taking the consoles and mounting them vertically on the traveler supports. Duh. All I needed to do was look at the problem from a 90 degree different angle.

 

Speaking of which, I have some "line covers" for an FD I won't be using... anyone interested? They keep you from stepping on all the pieces of string, and look really nice. They were also in the 1972 Olympics, if you're into that. Anyone interested? I'll send them free of charge, you donate to USAFD. IF I come across any other hardware, I'll post it.

 

7, thanks again. I will get going on pictures. I'll probably have the backing plates made today, and mount the hardware tomorrow, oops, no I won't. Seattle's Duck Dodge is tomorrow. Dad's out in London, so I get the BIG BOAT to myself and my friends. Red wine, white wine and the blues.... gotta love fermentation and sailing. Anyway, the rudder will go on this week.

 

At Nationals, or any other sanctioned event, if you don't measure up, do they give you a chance to fix the problem before the race, or is it one shot? Just wondering.

 

Duck dodge sounds like a fine weekend. you sound as happy as a kid.

 

 

how do you know the old Hoare was sailing in the 72 Olympics?

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Duck dodge sounds like a fine weekend. you sound as happy as a kid.

how do you know the old Hoare was sailing in the 72 Olympics?

 

 

When I got the boat I got a batch of old FD bulletins, and contacted the (I assume now defunct )Region 9 secretary. Turns out he was still at the same number, the area code changed, but was also the owner of the boat at one time, told me about it's history. It was one of, or THE, entry for the Canucks that year, and finished in the teens... it's on the web.

 

Got shipped back, he maintained and raced the boat for a while, then sold it to some kid who let it rot. Then a series of other owners who let it rot. Then me, who salvaged and scrapped the boat.

 

Oh, and about Duck Dodge.... you wouldn't believe how many 26 year old single women will fit on a boat.... but it sure is fun to find out! If you ever go sailing here during the summer it's a must-do-before-I-die event.

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Speaking of which, I have some "line covers" for an FD I won't be using... anyone interested? They keep you from stepping on all the pieces of string, and look really nice.

Can you post a pic of the line covers I'm looking for ideas

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Yes, at the nationals, if there is a problem, they will let you remedy the issue. They prefer that we adddress the issues at a natianls level rather than wait until one gets to the World level. Moost of the time the issues have been addressed as the boats are pretty well inspected by that time. BTW the November US Nationals are in Santa Cruz, California, the August North Americans are in Kingston, Ontario (CORK).

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Can you post a pic of the line covers I'm looking for ideas

 

Rastus, et al.

 

As I mentioned, my camera was stolen, but they're easy enough to describe: they are about a meter long, and look a lot like shallow, but thick plastic gutter material, with tabs on the sides, about every 30cm so you can screw it down. They're open at both ends to allow lines to run through. They'd work great on a modern false bottom boat; mine's a goofy design that they won't work on. If I buy a camera this week, I'll certainly post a pic.

 

Personally, I would do something a little more bombproof: saw a piece of 4inch PVC longitudinally, cutting the tabs as I went, and bake it briefly in the oven at 275 degrees. Then the PVC will turn soft without affecting it's structural strength. Lay that sucker flat and the tabs would bend outward, and viola! Bombproof line covers! Use schedule 40 and you can use the rest for a "spud musket", or potato gun. This is much easier to do if you aren't married, FYI.

 

Last night's update... I worked on the rudder and transom. The pintles don't match what my rudder has, so I'm going with the old Bob Hoare setup, it'll require a new backing plate, but so what? I also installed a tactical compass on board to spot those headers and lifts. It's getting to the point where the boat is craving a little water to play in and see what breaks, what works, and what doesn't. These old one designs, hardly anyone sails them here, so that's why I'm tapping you guys for info. Except 505's, which I HOPE are still my competition. My last boat was a classic International 14, and we stayed pretty much on par with them. Pics --->

post-17196-1214934110_thumb.jpg

post-17196-1214934165_thumb.jpg

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Thanks for the description SD. I'm still undecided on the line covers as I am trying to keep the boat at of near minimum weight and the backend needs stuff added to it

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Thanks for the description SD. I'm still undecided on the line covers as I am trying to keep the boat at of near minimum weight and the backend needs stuff added to it

 

Who knows what shipping is there, but these don't weigh but a few ounces. I say that right after receiving a copy of BOATSPEED by Rodney Pattison, the biggest weightmiser of all time, apparently. Still, lots of good Flying Dutchman rigging pictures.

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Who knows what shipping is there, but these don't weigh but a few ounces. I say that right after receiving a copy of BOATSPEED by Rodney Pattison, the biggest weightmiser of all time, apparently. Still, lots of good Flying Dutchman rigging pictures.

Are you a salesman by chance? show us some pics from your new book

John

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Are you a salesman by chance? show us some pics from your new book

John

No, I got that thing off of Amazon.com. Rodney Pattison was a total rock star, winning the Olympics twice, a silver once in the FD. His boat, Supercalafragalisticexpialadococius, is being rebuilt, pics here in SA somewhere. Anyway, it's a great book for an idiot like me.

 

We call that an ID 10 T error, here in Seattle, BTW.

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When I got the boat I got a batch of old FD bulletins, and contacted the (I assume now defunct )Region 9 secretary. Turns out he was still at the same number, the area code changed, but was also the owner of the boat at one time, told me about it's history. It was one of, or THE, entry for the Canucks that year, and finished in the teens... it's on the web.

 

Got shipped back, he maintained and raced the boat for a while, then sold it to some kid who let it rot. Then a series of other owners who let it rot. Then me, who salvaged and scrapped the boat.

Some authorities say it was Peter Byrne in a 1968ish Hoare. This photo taken by Dr.Stout in St Pete at a contemporary SPORT regatta.

 

please link to where "It's on the web" or refrain from saying so. (thats a kind of geeky "pics or it never happened")

post-11767-1215036549_thumb.jpg

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Some authorities say it was Peter Byrne in a 1968ish Hoare. This photo taken by Dr.Stout in St Pete at a contemporary SPORT regatta.

 

please link to where "It's on the web" or refrain from saying so. (thats a kind of geeky "pics or it never happened")

 

Thanks... this is the first forum I've ever been on, not sure of the etiquette rules.

 

As for pictures, I snapped two of the boat this am. One shows the spinnaker pole haul up (as outlined by 7) that I fabbed out of some aluminum, and the second shows the new Harken track with the windward sheeting car on board. Last weekend I spliced a new main sheet and attached the rudder hardware. This weekend is a trip to Seattle's West Marine to get some new shrouds, and to do an initial float test on the boat, see if she, or better yet, where she, leaks.

 

As for the "Organ Donor's" lineage: Looking at the pics that 7 posted, I'm not ruling out the other boat. It's definitely not the same tiller; it looks like their tiller had the ability to pivot, mine doesn't. Beyond that, of course it looked like that picture. It may just be a function of being a Bob Hoare boat, but the black boom certainly matched. That got put on the classic I-14, simply because it looked cool.

post-17196-1215461240_thumb.jpg

post-17196-1215461258_thumb.jpg

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those fittings look quite serviceable, that little plate has been made I guess 500 times. I'm about to make one for the Hein. it has a clam cleet there right now which is a bitch.

 

The black spars were by Elvstrom. I see that xpatriola has elvstrom spars too. very popular for a brief period in the mid 70s. My dads first 470, US-966 had them too.

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those fittings look quite serviceable, that little plate has been made I guess 500 times. I'm about to make one for the Hein. it has a clam cleet there right now which is a bitch.

 

The black spars were by Elvstrom. I see that xpatriola has elvstrom spars too. very popular for a brief period in the mid 70s. My dads first 470, US-966 had them too.

 

Cool, was nervous about posting the picture... my metal skills get maxed out at riveting. I tried launching the pole, seems like it works pretty well! Certainly pretty cool. I also put a clip in the boom, just in case that sucker rattles around, and should make things easier to disassemble and reassemble... I'm hoping I can pop the boom and spin pole off almost as a unit, because I'll be setting up and launching the boat each time I go out.

 

I just need to put the mast up now and see where, and by how much everything is short. I'm hoping not by much.

 

ooh, I DO have another question: The point where the center controls hits the deck appears to have come loose. I'm going to pour epoxy under it, and compress. Is that all I should do? At what point do I get he chainsaw out again?

:huh:

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Where has the control panel come loose. In one spot or all of the attach points. Got a picture?

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Where has the control panel come loose. In one spot or all of the attach points. Got a picture?

The best way to describe it is in the first pic on this thread... It's right underneath the starboard mounting, where the centerboard console meets the floor stringer.

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The best way to describe it is in the first pic on this thread... It's right underneath the starboard mounting, where the centerboard console meets the floor stringer.

its just come unglued right? so re-glue it, and forget it. It hasnt ripped up a piece of the stringer or floor right?

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its just come unglued right? so re-glue it, and forget it. It hasnt ripped up a piece of the stringer or floor right?

 

Yes. It's just lifted from the floor. I was thinking epoxy and forget it, too. Easy peesy.

 

So I put the mast up again, its simply too high. Now, 7, and everyone else, before you tell me to check to FD website for the specs, I have to measure how much of the mast base I have to cut off. It's either that or cut down the keelson, which sounds like a "BAD IDEA".

 

That all said.. it's getting exciting around the house, well, I'm getting excited in preparation for the launch.

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So I put the mast up again, its simply too high. Now, 7, and everyone else, before you tell me to check to FD website for the specs, I have to measure how much of the mast base I have to cut off. It's either that or cut down the keelson, which sounds like a "BAD IDEA".

 

That all said.. it's getting exciting around the house, well, I'm getting excited in preparation for the launch.

 

yes, sorry, read the RULES, see the drawings at the back.

look for the deck band on the mast, it should be there.

the datum for the mast is the deck, not the floor. dimension y is different in every boat.

hopefully the heel plug will come out without too much grief, so you can make a hacksaw cut and then stick it back in.

post-11767-1215624204_thumb.jpg

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Hello 7 & all.

I'm wrestling with the choice of transom hardware for the Hein right now.

Went to APS and ordered the Holt Allen "heavy duty" ones. Very disappointing, 28mm (5/8") wide strap material only 1,5mm (1/16") thick. Yes, it's doubled up in places but still looks more like it belongs on an 8 ft. pram. The stuff on my Laser 2 looks beefy by comparison. FD rudder is 1 1/2 thick.

Was thinking of re-ordering the Racelite 490 series instead. Is this overkill?

 

transom hardware . The SeaSure stuff is in pretty widespead use, but is kind of expensive. 5/16" pins are fine.

The RaceLite 390 system would be quite adaquate also. the RL gudgeons lay pretty close to the boat. I would suggest putting standoffs of 3/8" mahogany under them.

you should read the class rules. they are pretty infromative including a lot of pictures!

the blade should extend 810mm below the transom (max allowed).

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Hello 7 & all.

I'm wrestling with the choice of transom hardware for the Hein right now.

Went to APS and ordered the Holt Allen "heavy duty" ones. Very disappointing, 28mm (5/8") wide strap material only 1,5mm (1/16") thick. Yes, it's doubled up in places but still looks more like it belongs on an 8 ft. pram. The stuff on my Laser 2 looks beefy by comparison. FD rudder is 1 1/2 thick.

Was thinking of re-ordering the Racelite 490 series instead. Is this overkill?

 

I agree, that Holt stuff just looks cheap. I think I'd rather spend too much and not have the rudder fall off. It looked like some of the Ronstan stuff worked just fine. Gugeons/ pintles at APS but it looks like you're going to spend about 100 bucks for the good stuff.

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Very similar to the Needlespar, round section with external alloy track.

That I knew. I was looking for info on bend characteristics, so forth and so on.

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Sorry,

I have no experience of them on an FD but on the Flying Fifteen which has similar dimensions it seems to give the same sort of performance as the Needlespar. However individual masts vary, again like Needlespars because the were easy to sleeve to alter the bend characteristics. Overall I would say that in standard form they were quite stiff and not quite so agricultural as the Needle...

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Sorry,

I have no experience of them on an FD but on the Flying Fifteen which has similar dimensions it seems to give the same sort of performance as the Needlespar. However individual masts vary, again like Needlespars because the were easy to sleeve to alter the bend characteristics. Overall I would say that in standard form they were quite stiff and not quite so agricultural as the Needle...

Thanks I've been sailing the last season with a baverstock mast, larger round secton but looks simmilar

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I believe there were several different Z-spar weights wall thicknesses. dont have any precise data, but there are a few still in use over here on late 70s vintage boats. they are stiffer than the contemporary Proctor E. They pre-date the widespread use of lower shrouds , for example.

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It looks as if the old round section with external track is no longer listed, but Im sure they would answer a query if you emailed them your diameter and wall thickness.

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I had a look at the zspar site but didn't find any thing that looks like my mast

If yours is has a mast track that's riveted on and has no lowers, I'd bet dollars to doughnuts that's the same mast I have, and it seems pretty well made. For some reason, my boat has a mast ram the pushes the base aft, must be for really light airs.

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If yours is has a mast track that's riveted on and has no lowers, I'd bet dollars to doughnuts that's the same mast I have, and it seems pretty well made. For some reason, my boat has a mast ram the pushes the base aft, must be for really light airs.

do you have any pics. Mine has had lowers added, but still has a track on the front that the slide for the kite pole went on

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do you have any pics. Mine has had lowers added, but still has a track on the front that the slide for the kite pole went on

I'm taking some photos of other items tonight, and sure, I'll throw one or two in.

 

Since all the standing rigging is too short for my boat, I thought that the mast might be a bit too long. I went to the rules but found them more confusing than anything else. I am pretty slow when it comes to most things and I will probably spend the next three days on the bus, looking it over, drawing pictures so that I understand what the hell I'm doing. God, I wish I had the boat in the water today. It was 75 degrees and blowing 15 knots , but nice and flat on Puget Sound today. Looked like the boat was tailor- made for those conditions!

 

As it was I took my son biking instead. Parenthood.

 

Sorry, I got off topic there. Sure, I'll post pics of my mast tomorrow. While I have you on line, what do you think of penetrating epoxy to fix those hairline cracks? Is it any better than the regular stuff? I think I'll do my float test this week... I guess I'll see how it does, but suspect that there are some tank leaks.

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a Z-spar on an Advance hull, probobly the first time this has ever been done.

 

remember to use the deck line as the datum. the connection between the shroud terminals and the boat could be anywhere from below the deck to a foot above, Ive seen all combinations. you may need to make some kind of jumpers. do you have a Nico press tool?

goody, more tools!

swagetool.jpg

 

NicopressEye.gif

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While we're in the neighborhood, where is the usual place to attach the forestay to the mast? Mine was attached via a thimble to the spin halyard guy, right to the loop out front that the halyard passes thru. Doesn't seem quite right.

There is a fitting for a t-ball terminal but this has been hijacked for attachment of a 2:1-at-the-top jib halyard using one of the rivit holes for the halyard, not the t-ball opening itself.

Should I put this back to stock, and omit the 2:1 halyard?

Mast is a SuperSpars M-8.

 

Also, on the shrouds -is it acceptable for the adjusting tackle to be partially above deck? Or should that be only the jumper?

 

a Z-spar on an Advance hull, probobly the first time this has ever been done.

 

remember to use the deck line as the datum. the connection between the shroud terminals and the boat could be anywhere from below the deck to a foot above, Ive seen all combinations. you may need to make some kind of jumpers. do you have a Nico press tool?

goody, more tools!

swagetool.jpg

 

NicopressEye.gif

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While we're in the neighborhood, where is the usual place to attach the forestay to the mast? Mine was attached via a thimble to the spin halyard guy, right to the loop out front that the halyard passes thru. Doesn't seem quite right.

There is a fitting for a t-ball terminal but this has been hijacked for attachment of a 2:1-at-the-top jib halyard using one of the rivit holes for the halyard, not the t-ball opening itself.

Should I put this back to stock, and omit the 2:1 halyard?

Mast is a SuperSpars M-8.

 

Also, on the shrouds -is it acceptable for the adjusting tackle to be partially above deck? Or should that be only the jumper?

 

the 2:1 gen halyard is a nice feature - it gets one more hunk of junk out of the cockpit.

 

That "crane" mounting, with the spinnaker halyard passing, essentially through the forestay was pretty common, prior to 1993. If you intend to fly the new larger spinnaker ( and why not) you need to move the spinnaker sheave up 400mm. ( 500mm above the lower edge of band 4)

the forestay can be stuck on anywhere between the gen halyad sheave abd the spi halyard sheave. the only concern is that it not get wrapped up in the head of the genoa when you are furling, that can make for a royal CF up there. so it should be a high as you can manage. just under the new spi sheave box. that could be t-ball filling or just a hole big enough to slip a swaged on J hook, or an eye strap to a piece of Vectrus.

the only rule regarding the forestay is that is be minimum 2mm, as strong as SS wire, and be able to hold up the mast if the gen halyard parts.

 

In the rule 69 drawing, you can see the crane at the old location, and the flush mounted sheave at the highest allowed location, and the forestay termnated close under it. I think this latter is universal. I dont know of anyone who choase alocation lower than the max height.

rule69pic838.jpg

 

 

the shroud attachments are generally above the deck on double bottom boats, so you can get a decent amount of travel between that and the block on the chainplate. 150mm of travel there would be prefferable. just put lengths of 1" plastic pipe over them so they dont chafe the genoa and crew. you can see in this photo of Russhin, how the 6:1 blocks are above deck level with the mast straight up, and the connection is inside a hunk of pipe.

ml83lm09b.jpg

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the 2:1 gen halyard is a nice feature - it gets one more hunk of junk out of the cockpit.

 

That "crane" mounting, with the spinnaker halyard passing, essentially through the forestay was pretty common, prior to 1993. If you intend to fly the new larger spinnaker ( and why not) you need to move the spinnaker sheave up 400mm. ( 500mm above the lower edge of band 4)

the forestay can be stuck on anywhere between the gen halyad sheave abd the spi halyard sheave. the only concern is that it not get wrapped up in the head of the genoa when you are furling, that can make for a royal CF up there. so it should be a high as you can manage. just under the new spi sheave box. that could be t-ball filling or just a hole big enough to slip a swaged on J hook, or an eye strap to a piece of Vectrus.

the only rule regarding the forestay is that is be minimum 2mm, as strong as SS wire, and be able to hold up the mast if the gen halyard parts.

 

In the rule 69 drawing, you can see the crane at the old location, and the flush mounted sheave at the highest allowed location, and the forestay termnated close under it. I think this latter is universal. I don't know of anyone who choase alocation lower than the max height.

rule69pic838.jpg

the shroud attachments are generally above the deck on double bottom boats, so you can get a decent amount of travel between that and the block on the chainplate. 150mm of travel there would be prefferable. just put lengths of 1" plastic pipe over them so they dont chafe the genoa and crew. you can see in this photo of Russhin, how the 6:1 blocks are above deck level with the mast straight up, and the connection is inside a hunk of pipe.

ml83lm09b.jpg

 

On my boat the forestay is seperated from the halyard by two pieces: one, a smal SS strap to keep them separated, and a spinning collar so the two have less of a chance of tangling.

 

Yes, I'm putting a Z-spar on an Advance. It'll be like putting a Prada dress on a Bassett hound!

 

It actually states that the forestay must be attached in a seamanlike manner.... just a little juice for you there, 7. ;) See? I have been reading the rules! The piece that you searched somewhere else in FD by FSS is another way to get 2:1 more on the genny, correct? This is the roller furler with a 2:1.

 

Thanks for explaining the datum point thing... I'll definitely have to put up the mast a couple of more times before I'm done measuring and cutting/ making new. On another thread, I remember reading something about cutting SS shackles for hook attachments, and spectra line for trap lines, but didn't know about using that setup for the shrouds. Can I/ should I do that? I'm certainly not all that concerned about windage. I looked in the rules but didn't see anything in regards to material type. It seems easier to deal with spectra than SS wire... any thoughts everyone?

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as for using the newfangled strong strings I know of a few boats that have them for forestays and trapeze lines. Although I wouldn't go cutting shackles to make hooks, some one tried that on my boat and they didn't last long

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I know when I don't trust my trap wires anymore I'll replace them with high tech line... but I was wondering about the shrouds. As for the homemade hook idea, isn't that essentially what you have to keep the shrouds in your mast anyway? It seems like it wouldn't wear any faster than those, unless your mast was made of carbon steel or stainless, both of which I doubt. Well, maybe you do: they do things a little differently down there, though....

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I know when I don't trust my trap wires anymore I'll replace them with high tech line... but I was wondering about the shrouds. As for the homemade hook idea, isn't that essentially what you have to keep the shrouds in your mast anyway? It seems like it wouldn't wear any faster than those, unless your mast was made of carbon steel or stainless, both of which I doubt. Well, maybe you do: they do things a little differently down there, though....

several people have done high hitech line shrouds. I have not investigated how they are terminated. maybe knotted and swaged into ss eye lugs. probobly want a jacketted line.

not a problem- but need to remember that these are not permenant like ss wire, which can last 40 years, the textile ones must be replaced every ?so often.

As for the homemade hook idea, isn't that essentially what you have to keep the shrouds in your mast anyway? It seems like it wouldn't wear any faster than those, unless your mast was made of carbon steel or stainless, both of which I doubt. Well, maybe you do: they do things a little differently down there, though....

where to begin.

SD , are you an engineer? "it seems to me" begins alot of sentences that cause engineers' eyes to roll up into their heads and groan involuntarily.

if you have appropriate training, you can do the analysis of the materials, bearing surfaces and loadings for yourself, and fabricate your own fittings from appropriate stock.

otherwise just buy the right fittings.

thanks

7

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several people have done high hitech line shrouds. I have not investigated how they are terminated. maybe knotted and swaged into ss eye lugs. probobly want a jacketted line.

not a problem- but need to remember that these are not permenant like ss wire, which can last 40 years, the textile ones must be replaced every ?so often.

 

where to begin.

SD , are you an engineer? "it seems to me" begins alot of sentences that cause engineers' eyes to roll up into their heads and groan involuntarily.

if you have appropriate training, you can do the analysis of the materials, bearing surfaces and loadings for yourself, and fabricate your own fittings from appropriate stock.

otherwise just buy the right fittings.

thanks

7

 

I got the idea from you, 7, telling me to go check the www.calfd.org site, and one of their idea was to take a ss shackle, hacksaw it obliquely, so that there was a "hook", and an opening for a line to attach to. I tried to find it again, but couldn't locate the reference.

 

Since my boat's older than forty, it makes sense to make the shrouds out of stainless wire to last another 40... maybe I'll win races then, if only due to the process of attrition? anyway, I priced it out and... there's another 200 bucks down the drain for shrouds.

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<www.calfd.org>

click on "How to" then scroll down to "ideas".

 

Lots of good info about FDs on this site, and also many pics to help with rigging, etc. Well worth a visit if you are into these boats.

 

I got the idea from you, 7, telling me to go check the www.calfd.org site, and one of their idea was to take a ss shackle, hacksaw it obliquely, so that there was a "hook", and an opening for a line to attach to. I tried to find it again, but couldn't locate the reference.

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FDers,

 

If any of you guys need/want a Superspars mast, boom or spinnaker pole PM me a.s.a.p. WCB is putting together an order as we type and he will be wrapping it up at the end of the week. There are a lot of items already in the order so shipping costs are cheap. I have the price list if you need it.

 

Carbon

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I will move the sheave up to the max position on the mast.

Is there an advantage to moving the crane up also? On our smaller boat it works best to fly the spin with the head of the sail 6" or so in front of the mast. We use a knot in the halyard for this, I wondered if the crane provided this function on the FD since there is also a t-ball fitting that I believe was originally intended as the forestay attach point.

 

When using the 2:1 at the top of the genoa, the block/swivel combinations I have seen have a guide that slides along the forestay to keep things from getting twisted. It would seem that moving the forestay attach point up on the mast would eliminate this option, or is the guide only an attempt to avoid said CF?

 

the 2:1 gen halyard is a nice feature - it gets one more hunk of junk out of the cockpit.

 

That "crane" mounting, with the spinnaker halyard passing, essentially through the forestay was pretty common, prior to 1993. If you intend to fly the new larger spinnaker ( and why not) you need to move the spinnaker sheave up 400mm. ( 500mm above the lower edge of band 4)

the forestay can be stuck on anywhere between the gen halyad sheave abd the spi halyard sheave. the only concern is that it not get wrapped up in the head of the genoa when you are furling, that can make for a royal CF up there. so it should be a high as you can manage. just under the new spi sheave box. that could be t-ball filling or just a hole big enough to slip a swaged on J hook, or an eye strap to a piece of Vectrus.

 

 

In the rule 69 drawing, you can see the crane at the old location, and the flush mounted sheave at the highest allowed location, and the forestay termnated close under it. I think this latter is universal. I dont know of anyone who choase alocation lower than the max height.

rule69pic838.jpg

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I will move the sheave up to the max position on the mast.

Is there an advantage to moving the crane up also? On our smaller boat it works best to fly the spin with the head of the sail 6" or so in front of the mast. We use a knot in the halyard for this, I wondered if the crane provided this function on the FD since there is also a t-ball fitting that I believe was originally intended as the forestay attach point.

 

When using the 2:1 at the top of the genoa, the block/swivel combinations I have seen have a guide that slides along the forestay to keep things from getting twisted. It would seem that moving the forestay attach point up on the mast would eliminate this option, or is the guide only an attempt to avoid said CF?

Hey H;

 

I posted a pic of the halyard attachment on the "Planstrend Remodel" thread; don't know if that helps, since you are putting a 2:1 at the top, but the idea of holding the forestay and halyard together (and therefore apart, too) seems both simple and elegant. It's a simple SS strap that has two holes in it, one to hold the forestay, and one to hold the swivel/ swivel block you are using. That way the two can slide on one another freely, but have to go through a lot of motions to get them to tangle into said CF. Does that help at all?

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I will move the sheave up to the max position on the mast.

Is there an advantage to moving the crane up also? On our smaller boat it works best to fly the spin with the head of the sail 6" or so in front of the mast. We use a knot in the halyard for this, I wondered if the crane provided this function on the FD since there is also a t-ball fitting that I believe was originally intended as the forestay attach point.

 

When using the 2:1 at the top of the genoa, the block/swivel combinations I have seen have a guide that slides along the forestay to keep things from getting twisted. It would seem that moving the forestay attach point up on the mast would eliminate this option, or is the guide only an attempt to avoid said CF?

with reference to the rule 69 drawing, the bearing point of the halyard must fall within the triangle, which I have here filled in in yellow. therefore, only a flush mounted sheave may be used at the highest allowed point.

rule69pictri500.jpg

 

I agree that the sail should stand off the sheave a few inches. A knot or a stopper ball on the halyard are both ok.

 

You can still mount an anti-spinner from the spi-halyard swivel up to the forestay. here is one example

genhalyard.jpg

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Thanks 7 for the quick response.

Got it (finally). The crane counts as a bearing point so is not legal.

I'll move the sheave and the forestay attach point too.

I like the idea of the anti-twist strap as the genoa halyard (wire) wants to wrap itself up as the genoa is raised, no matter what I do to try and prevent that.

 

with reference to the rule 69 drawing, the bearing point of the halyard must fall within the triangle, which I have here filled in in yellow. therefore, only a flush mounted sheave may be used at the highest allowed point.

 

I agree that the sail should stand off the sheave a few inches. A knot or a stopper ball on the halyard are both ok.

 

You can still mount an anti-spinner from the spi-halyard swivel up to the forestay. here is one example

 

 

Hey H;

 

I posted a pic of the halyard attachment on the "Planstrend Remodel" thread; don't know if that helps, since you are putting a 2:1 at the top, but the idea of holding the forestay and halyard together (and therefore apart, too) seems both simple and elegant. It's a simple SS strap that has two holes in it, one to hold the forestay, and one to hold the swivel/ swivel block you are using. That way the two can slide on one another freely, but have to go through a lot of motions to get them to tangle into said CF. Does that help at all?

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Hello SD.

Yes, thanks it does help as does 7's pic.

I jumped to the conclusion that with moving the forestay up 500mm higher that the anti-twister would have to be very long to span the gap between forestay and halyard.

Should have paid more attention during trig class...

Looks do-able -the halyard tension will just pull the stay back a bit anyway, though there must be a more elegant way to fashion the strap than what I've seen so far. Good project for next winter.

 

Did you cut your mast yet? I finally took a close look at mine and after (triple) checking all the measurements looks like I need to cut off 70mm.

 

Hey H;

 

I posted a pic of the halyard attachment on the "Planstrend Remodel" thread; don't know if that helps, since you are putting a 2:1 at the top, but the idea of holding the forestay and halyard together (and therefore apart, too) seems both simple and elegant. It's a simple SS strap that has two holes in it, one to hold the forestay, and one to hold the swivel/ swivel block you are using. That way the two can slide on one another freely, but have to go through a lot of motions to get them to tangle into said CF. Does that help at all?

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Hello SD.

Yes, thanks it does help as does 7's pic.

I jumped to the conclusion that with moving the forestay up 500mm higher that the anti-twister would have to be very long to span the gap between forestay and halyard.

Should have paid more attention during trig class...

Looks do-able -the halyard tension will just pull the stay back a bit anyway, though there must be a more elegant way to fashion the strap than what I've seen so far. Good project for next winter.

 

Did you cut your mast yet? I finally took a close look at mine and after (triple) checking all the measurements looks like I need to cut off 70mm.

 

I haven't cut my mast yet, as I'm a big chicken on these things... Measure three times, is what my dad said. So right now I'm holding off. I am not altogether clear on the measurements in my head yet, especially since there aren't ANY bands on the extrusion. I need to make sure I put those on correctly, and then do the dirty deed of measuring.

 

Overall, my plan is to sail it for a year, and take it down to Nationals and get the I-traveled-all-this-way-and-all-I-got was-the-DFL-t-shirt, but be legal about it when I do. Still there's always the chance of all my flyers paying off,tho, right?

 

I really like the swivel that came up from (who else?) 7's search for FSS. You can see a pic of it here. It's got the swivel built in, and even has the bail to attach to the sail. An aluminum strap could be easy to fab up to it in the slot and keep the two pieces apart.

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now Im going to fill up that immaculate spartan ultralight fantail with blocks and string.

 

OOPS! I dropped 450 bucks!

post-11767-1216162102_thumb.jpg

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now Im going to fill up that immaculate spartan ultralight fantail with blocks and string.

 

OOPS! I dropped 450 bucks!

If I'd known you were doing that, I'd have bought more Harken stock! ;) It'll be so awesome to just look back and know it's all not going to break, though.

 

The loads you guys are talking about generating would fold my little boat in half!

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Here is the sister ship, Hein USA1359, while opened up.

All holes were plugged with dowels. Epoxy was blown into any cracks with compressed air (be careful, use real low flow but works fantastic) and gusset plates added to corners and as back up for transom fittings.

I installed all new stringers under deck and this pic also shows one of the new cross beams. Each side of beam is covered w/glass cloth for added strength. Cloth was just saturated, no fill coats so very little weight increase. This area of the boat was particularly beat up.

 

 

Second pic shows that I have smaller openings in the transom than 7's boat, and also the half-high bulkhead added by Mark Lindsay in the early '80's to deal with oil canning of the bottom. (info per Bill Bernard)

1359 was built in June of 1974.

 

 

transom fittings - US-1354 has the SeaSure stuff, and a goodly post behind.

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Here is the sister ship, Hein USA1359, while opened up.

All holes were plugged with dowels. Epoxy was blown into any cracks with compressed air (be careful, use real low flow but works fantastic) and gusset plates added to corners and as back up for transom fittings.

I installed all new stringers under deck and this pic also shows one of the new cross beams. Each side of beam is covered w/glass cloth for added strength. Cloth was just saturated, no fill coats so very little weight increase. This area of the boat was particularly beat up.

Second pic shows that I have smaller openings in the transom than 7's boat, and also the half-high bulkhead added by Mark Lindsay in the early '80's to deal with oil canning of the bottom. (info per Bill Bernard)

1359 was built in June of 1974.

 

looks great. that looks like a standard Hein transom. The one on my boat is a recent refit after an incident with a submerged rock.

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