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Dan33

C&C question

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This came up in another thread...that no matter the size, the C&C's are fast.

 

I've raced againest several of the 27's, and a 30, and no matter how well we sail, these boats always seem to be at the next mark fighting with us for position. They have a great reputation on the Great Lakes and always seem to do well club racing.

 

I have noticed the keels and rudders have a definite shark fin appearance, but I'm sure if it was that simple all our boats would have that look.

 

What is it that makes these boats fast, over so many years, so many lengths, so many designs??

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The two C's, Cuthbertson and Cassian were very good designers. They cut their yacht design teeth on gran prix racing boats of the day and they were very succesful. If you research the history of the designers and the company you will find that they were always very near the top of the heap in racing fleets. They produced several boats that I consider clasic today, the old C&C 35, the semi custom 43, the Redline/Newport 41 and one of my all time favorites the C&C 39. They were good.

 

I would really love to see someone write a comprehensive book on the history of C&C.

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Dan:

fabulous article. I wish it had far more drawings. Th office drafting standard was very high and they were masters of aesthetics.

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I didn't know Steve Killing was part of the C&C group...that would explain why the Express 30's do well. I spoke to him on the phone a few years ago, he helped me solve a rudder problem on my CS27. Nice guy.

 

(CS27...great boat, crappy rudder design)

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The earlier boats had the shark fin appendages, but once the straight-line crowd got into the act, with keels like Doug Peterson's, C&C got on that bandwagon. Tank tests showed the shark fins were faster, and they resisted stalling better, but the rudders in particular weren't totally user-friendly and they were relatively inefficient. My '84 35 has conventional appendages. Like Bob said, the older boats had a really special look, embodied in the 39, but buyers wanted more modern (Eurostyle) looks. C&C really had a look of their own, and you can see it in the boats they designed for other builders, such as Baltic and Newport. I think these boats really stand up well in terms of design quality and sailing ability, but I'm totally biased.

 

35b3p02.jpg

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I started sailing on Lake Ontario in the 70's, and C&C's were definitely the top shelf boats in pretty much everyone's eyes. Looks, quality, performance -- they were it.

 

In the 80's I crewed on a 35 -- I remember thinking that was just about as good as life could get (looking back, I reckon I still think that! :P ).

 

I still think the C&C's of that era are some of the best looking boats on the water. There are newer, faster boats that I like both aesthetically and otherwise, but something -- everything? -- about them just looks right to my eye.

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Dan:

fabulous article. I wish it had far more drawings. Th office drafting standard was very high and they were masters of aesthetics.

Bob,

 

The 35 MkIII is my favorite of their line to race against. Very capable boat in all conditions. But as far as aesthetics go they have the worst laid out cockpits of just about any boat out there.

 

Will Museler

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Ish

 

I guess all the C&Cs at our club are the older design...I supervise the point crew for lauch and haul out, and always loved the look of the shark fin keels. They are just a pain to set into a cradle properly.

 

They are frustrating to race againest...I know we can out crew them, our boat is in A-1 shape, sails are all new, we work hard to be as good as we can...and the C&Cs are so tough to handle.

 

It's tough to beat a boat that out points you, even a little bit.

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Dan:

fabulous article. I wish it had far more drawings. Th office drafting standard was very high and they were masters of aesthetics.

Bob,

 

The 35 MkIII is my favorite of their line to race against. Very capable boat in all conditions. But as far as aesthetics go they have the worst laid out cockpits of just about any boat out there.

 

Will Museler

 

I hated the cabin top traveler on the 37.

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When I emigrated to Toronto in 1974 my first crew job was on Manitou/Magistri gearing up again for the Canada's Cup. Here she is sporting her new taller rig in an IOR 2 Ton config. In the pic, you can see on the port side midships, a slightly lighter topside colour. We had just faired out the CCA Rule's BMAX bumps to make them IOR legal. BTW: that's Dave Gee (18 months before he joined C&C) standing on the starboard side of the mast adjusting the pole height. Although we didn't get through the Canada's Cup elimination (fresh bottom paint peeling off), Magistri went on to win the Trans-Superior Race. After that campaign, I sailed on the prototype C&C35 Redhead for a couple of seasons and later we tarted up a new C&C 38 (Redhead II) and took some of the rig and hardware approaches off Magistri and applied them to the 38. Good times.

post-5483-1226432000_thumb.jpg

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I must have just missed you WHL, I was supposed to sail the TS in 74 but the owner backed out.

 

The older C&C's are easy boats to be on, good motion.

 

DSC09696.jpg

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Recently a company was selling builder files but none of the 61's were in the pile. We have recently been told a maritime museum has them and we may be able to get copies. We are checking into this.

 

Dan:

fabulous article. I wish it had far more drawings. Th office drafting standard was very high and they were masters of aesthetics.

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Recently a company was selling builder files but none of the 61's were in the pile. We have recently been told a maritime museum has them and we may be able to get copies. We are checking into this.
Dan:

fabulous article. I wish it had far more drawings. Th office drafting standard was very high and they were masters of aesthetics.

Mystic Seaport has been accumulating classic design drawings. They took over a lot of the archives from S&S and may have some of the C&C's.

Joli, what boat were you going to do the 74 TS on?

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View:

You have Paul Bieker working on the Baltic 39 at C&C?

Are you trying to be funny or do you really believe that happened?

Or maybe I missed something. If so, please fill me in on the details. It sounds fascinating.

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I love this board...what starts off as a simple gripe about not being able to beat a C&C27 (corrected I might add) turns into a history lesson in Canadian yacht design and building.

 

Interesting that one of the C's came from AVRO...now there is an incredible story that few of my US friends have ever heard. The Arrow would have defined what a fighter aircraft should be for a generation...I guess he put that effort into yacht design once AVRO was squashed.

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Interesting CS Yachts (Canadian Sailcraft) were quite concerned that their name too closely resembled C&C.

 

I would love to see a CS Merlin36 head to head with a C&C35. I'm betting on the Merlin, but I love the Merlin.

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Joli:

 

Why don't you give Rob Ball a call at Edson.

Tell him Bob sent you.

He may have saved drawings. He was there longer than anyone else I think.

If he does not have drawings I bet he would know where they are if the are still available.

He's a very nice guy.

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Bob... yes we talked with him in Valencia at AC 32, and he said that he was a baby naval architect working under Rob Ball at the time when he worked on the Baltic 39 (~1977). Probably one of his first projects?

Great guy, and had a chance to talk with him again when he was here in Anacortes for DOGzilla.

 

 

View:

You have Paul Bieker working on the Baltic 39 at C&C?

Are you trying to be funny or do you really believe that happened?

Or maybe I missed something. If so, please fill me in on the details. It sounds fascinating.

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http://www.cncphotoalbum.com/reviews/cnchistory/index.htm

 

 

Found this. Hardly a book, but....

 

Good read, Gate. Thanks for that. I had forgotten about the Hinterhoeller connection -- the first non-family boat I crewed on was an HR 25. It "felt" a lot like the C&C's of the day -- solid as a rock.

post-26965-1226439549.jpg

post-26965-1226439570.jpg

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I love this board...what starts off as a simple gripe about not being able to beat a C&C27 (corrected I might add) turns into a history lesson in Canadian yacht design and building.

 

Interesting that one of the C's came from AVRO...now there is an incredible story that few of my US friends have ever heard. The Arrow would have defined what a fighter aircraft should be for a generation...I guess he put that effort into yacht design once AVRO was squashed.

Another aircraft connection: Manitou/Magistri had cross connected primaries with gearing and shifter made by DeHavilland IIRC

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Hello WHL, I was sailing on a Whitby 45 at the time, interestingly it was also a C&C design. I was only a kid then but it was a fun time with a good crew.

 

Recently a company was selling builder files but none of the 61's were in the pile. We have recently been told a maritime museum has them and we may be able to get copies. We are checking into this.
Dan:

fabulous article. I wish it had far more drawings. Th office drafting standard was very high and they were masters of aesthetics.

Mystic Seaport has been accumulating classic design drawings. They took over a lot of the archives from S&S and may have some of the C&C's.

Joli, what boat were you going to do the 74 TS on?

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Thank you Bob, I'll call Rob and mention your name. It would be interesting to see the original as built configuration. The boat has been modified since it's initial launch.

 

Joli:

 

Why don't you give Rob Ball a call at Edson.

Tell him Bob sent you.

He may have saved drawings. He was there longer than anyone else I think.

If he does not have drawings I bet he would know where they are if the are still available.

He's a very nice guy.

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It appears that Novis donated what they had to the Marine Museum of the Great Lakes. I seem to remember a price list published somewhere that you could have them plot & mail you design files for almost any design, but I can't find it on the cncphotoalbum.com site.

 

 

 

From http://c-cyachts.com :

 

 

 

"C&C Drawings Finally United

 

printer friendly

 

C&C Drawings Finally United

 

 

March 14, 2008 - History was not only made, it was reunited at the home of George and Helen Cuthbertson in Milton, Ontario. Tim Jackett of Grand River Marine, the current designer and builder of C&C yachts, agreed to donate their archive C&C drawings, dating from 1972 through the late 80's, to the Marine Museum of the Great Lakes, Kingston, Ontario. Maurice Smith, Curator was on hand to receive them.

 

Starting with the famous “Red Jacket”, C&C Yachts flourished as the pre-eminent yacht design and building company beginning from it's incorporation in 1967. In 1996 the brand and its intellectual materials were acquired and moved to Fairport, Ohio, where the current company has continued the C&C legacy with the production of a new line of C&C yachts, designed by Tim Jackett and the current C&C design team.

 

When George retired from the original C&C he donated all of the early C&C drawings under his design leadership to the Museum as well as his design drawings that predated C&C. The weekend saw the reunion of these impressive catalogs of work. On behalf of C&C Yachts, Tim graciously presented these later C&C drawings to complete the C&C Design archives under the care of the Marine Museum of the Great Lakes. These original hand executed drawings in ink and pencil on paper and Mylar will be digitally preserved and copies offered to all who might be interested, both through the Museum and through C&C Yachts. The museum will be accepting monetary donations to help cover the cost of digitizing and reproduction of the completed collection of drawings.

 

The drawings include such early George Cuthbertson C&C classics as the Corvette, Red Wing 30, C&C 25, 27, 30, 35, 39, 43, and 61s, as well as later Rob Ball classics such as the C&C 27, 29, 33, 34, 38, and the remarkable C&C 40, and the C&C 37R, and C&C 41s, not to mention the custom one-offs Amazing Grace, Silver Shadow, Charisma, Majistry, and many many more production and custom designs from this prolific and talented design office that included such notables as George Cassian, Ted Brewer, Mark Ellis, Steve Killing, Rob Mazza, George Hazen, Henry Adrience, Bill Goman, and many other talented designers. "

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Joli

I think the Whitby 45 was one of my favorite boats of all time. I sailed Dushka with Kurt Hansen a few times and it was a terrific boat . He had one of the water tanks filled with whisky at all times !

Jim

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Thanks Midfleet, it would appear the museum has the drawings. Road trip!

 

SHELL RECORD C&C 61 drawings for the following,

68-7 C&C 61 General, 71-8 Robon, 72-4 Sassy, 72-3 Ketch, 73-2 Joli, 73-4 Helisara, 74-25 Grampus, 79-13 Brita, 80-5 Pegasus.

 

Hi Jim, the 45 was a favorite for me to sail aboard also. Like I said, I was only a kid but the crew always made sure the boat was stocked for me prior to leaving. Good times.

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Joli

I think the Whitby 45 was one of my favorite boats of all time. I sailed Dushka with Kurt Hansen a few times and it was a terrific boat . He had one of the water tanks filled with whisky at all times !

Jim

 

Ohhhh...that's what the second tank is for.

 

Atta boy Bob!!

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Joli:

 

Why don't you give Rob Ball a call at Edson.

Tell him Bob sent you.

He may have saved drawings. He was there longer than anyone else I think.

If he does not have drawings I bet he would know where they are if the are still available.

He's a very nice guy.

Southshore Yachts has some C&C builder's drawings

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Gatekeeper, We had a C&C 27 MkIII that always kicked our ass...that bitch pointed 3 or 4 degrees higher than anything else that rated anywhere near it.

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Thanks Midfleet, it would appear the museum has the drawings. Road trip!

 

SHELL RECORD C&C 61 drawings for the following,

68-7 C&C 61 General, 71-8 Robon, 72-4 Sassy, 72-3 Ketch, 73-2 Joli, 73-4 Helisara, 74-25 Grampus, 79-13 Brita, 80-5 Pegasus.

 

Hi Jim, the 45 was a favorite for me to sail aboard also. Like I said, I was only a kid but the crew always made sure the boat was stocked for me prior to leaving. Good times.

 

I remember drooling over Sassy on Mackinac Island at after a few Mac races. As I recall, they beat us to the island :P ...

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Novis Marine (aka C&C Yachts) donated all the drawings they had to the Maritime Museum in Kingston, Ontario. Prior to this event, George Cuthbertson had donated much of his work to the Museum.

 

The museum is interested in helping anyone interested in buying copies. The price was reasonable, $10 per page for full size paper copies, more for digital copies. Shipping cost is extra as well as a small administrative charge. The collection is large and not yet catalogued so you must be patient. You can email your request to the curator at: curator@marmuseum.ca

 

There is still a lot of C&C information posted on the C&C Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com and we are adding more information as it becomes available. Unfortunately we do not have the blueprints or drawings.

 

Stu

Owner of the C&C Photo Album

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There have apparently been two or mor detailed articles about C&C written in a publication called Professional Boatbuilder. The October/November 2008 issue has a great article on the boat that first used a cored hull. That boat called Red Jacket is still sailing competitively and is widely known. there was another article in Issue 92 which is a complete history of C&C y achts.

 

This current article has lofting lines, and other drawings for those interested, It also has pictures of the original design team, etc. A very good read.

 

I think articles are on-line at www.proboat.com

 

Ron Casciato

Impromptu

C&C 38MKIIC...'77

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Gatekeeper, We had a C&C 27 MkIII that always kicked our ass...that bitch pointed 3 or 4 degrees higher than anything else that rated anywhere near it.

 

It's the MKIII that gives me the toughest time...I can handle the MKI ok if I don't do anything stupid, but the III is tough when he has a good crew aboard.

 

Everytime I'd think we had him finished off...he was back!!

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C&C 38MKIIC...'77

 

what is (was) this?

 

 

It is a 1977 C&C MKII Hull #125 which was built in the Bruckman Custom Shop...........hence "C" in the "build File".......

 

I believe that there were at least 2 38's built there..............mine was originally named "Program" and sailed in Chicago area. The other one was called Blue Max...I don't know where it sailed. MIne ended up going back to C&C in 1980 for some "repairs" to the floor which apparently was flexing???????? Blue Max also returned for tthe same "treatment". MIne ended up in New England in Marblehead.....I've had her for 10 years, now in HIngham MA.

 

Ron

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This may be old news, but on the topic of "drawings" and their availability.............for C&C owners out there, South Shore Yachts in Toronto does/did have many of the original "build files" for your boats. They are available for a reasonable price ($50-75???).

 

They are filed by Hull number so you need to know that; you can call Rob and see if he has yours. Mine contained all of the original paperwork on the original purchaser and Production orders, etc.............including interoffice menos when repairs needed to me made in 1980 to my 1977 C&C 38...........it completes my files on teh complete history of the boat and well worith the cost to me...........

 

Ron Casciato

Impromptu

C&C 38MKIIC....'77

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The two C's, Cuthbertson and Cassian were very good designers. They cut their yacht design teeth on gran prix racing boats of the day and they were very succesful. If you research the history of the designers and the company you will find that they were always very near the top of the heap in racing fleets. They produced several boats that I consider clasic today, the old C&C 35, the semi custom 43, the Redline/Newport 41 and one of my all time favorites the C&C 39. They were good.

 

I would really love to see someone write a comprehensive book on the history of C&C.

 

I sailed 2 Seattle/LA/Honolulu/Seattle circuits on the C&C 39 Midnight Special in the late 70's. I learned much about driving downwind with a short ruddered displacement boat from that 39, I still have fond thoughts of the design, but after a 29 day delivery back to Seattle in '79, short on food and water, the lovely Mrs. Blackbeard will not likely step foot on another 39.

 

In the late 80's I owned 1/2 of a 1980 C&C 36 that was a nice boat except downwind with a bit of breeze and sea. A mostly fun and easy boat to handle, the wife and kid enjoyed the cruises to Desolation Sound.

 

Our current boat is a 1970 C&C 43, hull number 1 built at the Bruckmann yard, now named Calypso. Launched as "Arieto", she raced up and down the East Coast doing well in SORC and races out of Boston. As "Phantom" and "Esta Es" the 43 spent +- 20 years on the Great Lakes. We trucked her out to the PNW in 1998 and added the equipment needed to sail 4 seasons and cruise the PNW. In the late 70's the stern was bobbed to plumb. I heard a rumor that the piece cut off ended up on a bar wall. If anybody knows where that piece is I want it back.

 

The 43 is a better all around boat, especially in heavy weather, than the 39 or 36. It appears to be built with left over hardware and spars from the C&C 61 series. The only drawback for me is the lovely Mrs. Blackbeard is intimidated by the weight and power of the 43 and would prefer something around 38'. The maintenance required on a 40 year old boat is a bit high, but having a partnership helps with the cost.

 

There are at least 4 C&C 43's in the Seattle area. The owner of one crewed on Arieto out of Boston. One of the other 43's in the area raced against Arieto for 10 years. From time to time at least 3 of us participate in the Sloop Tav Race to the Straits double handed. Maybe we can get a class start.

 

Blackbeard

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I must have just missed you WHL, I was supposed to sail the TS in 74 but the owner backed out.

 

The older C&C's are easy boats to be on, good motion.

 

DSC09696.jpg

 

Is this the same C&C 61 "Joli" that was once dark blue and involved in some import of agricultural goods issues back in the late 70's? If it is I have a few pictures taken when it was up for auction in Seattle. Great boat, entertaining history.

 

Blackbeard

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This may be old news, but on the topic of "drawings" and their availability.............for C&C owners out there, South Shore Yachts in Toronto does/did have many of the original "build files" for your boats. They are available for a reasonable price ($50-75???).

 

They are filed by Hull number so you need to know that; you can call Rob and see if he has yours. Mine contained all of the original paperwork on the original purchaser and Production orders, etc.............including interoffice menos when repairs needed to me made in 1980 to my 1977 C&C 38...........it completes my files on teh complete history of the boat and well worith the cost to me...........

 

Ron Casciato

Impromptu

C&C 38MKIIC....'77

 

Recently they were on sale for $25 US ($138.50 CDN) but I think they have gone back to their usual $35. Fun document to own, even though my boat only scored something like 87% on the quality scale. :( I have fixed a few more issues they didn't get at the factory, none life-threatening (like losing a rudder would be, for instance, not naming names now).

 

Ron, we need more visuals here, you can attach all the pictures you want, within reason. Pictures of your boat with pretty girls in various states of undress would be most appreciated.

 

Joli is a pretty boat, even without a speck of T&A.

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C&C 38MKIIC...'77

 

what is (was) this?

 

 

It is a 1977 C&C MKII Hull #125 which was built in the Bruckman Custom Shop...........hence "C" in the "build File".......

 

I believe that there were at least 2 38's built there..............mine was originally named "Program" and sailed in Chicago area. The other one was called Blue Max...I don't know where it sailed. MIne ended up going back to C&C in 1980 for some "repairs" to the floor which apparently was flexing???????? Blue Max also returned for tthe same "treatment". MIne ended up in New England in Marblehead.....I've had her for 10 years, now in HIngham MA.

 

Ron

 

i might have my CC's mixed up a bit but the 2 Bruckman 38's i recall were 76 vintage. Original names were Terrier (Gordon Fisher Toronto) and Spirit of '76 (Norm Manson NOL renamed just Spirit in '77). I sailed on Spirit and raced againt Terrier. These were 38's with some alterations (ie custom) so they would measure 27.5 which was one ton back then. These 2 boats were almost un touchable for many many years on lake ontario usually beating 40-45 footers boat for boat. They may have built 2 more but if i am correct Gord and Norm paid for the custom workup and more or less owned the design. The difference between the two was that Terrier was stripped out down below and used lead to measure in. Spirit had a full blown interior at Ellie's insistance. These were 2 great boats and we had some great battles for a few years. Last i knew of Terrier was sge went to the north east, I'm thinking nova scotia but may have been new england. Norm owned Spirit until he died 5 years ago and one of his long time crew bought it and we all sailed it one last year in '04. It was then sold to a guy from florida who chopped a foot or so off the keel and raised the boom a couple feet so he could cruise it. Scary thought knowing how it sailed downwind in 20+

Carv

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She's one and the same. We've met quite a few folks who have sailed on her and enjoyed their stories. When we repainted it only seemed right to go back to her original name, kind of like sailing on Fridays. The list of upgrades has filled a notebook but the 61 is a wonderful boat and to us has been worth every penny. If you have photos we would love to have digital copies. My e-mail is bryan@boysuno.com

 

Photo for Ishmael, Mrs. Joli sipping a Negra Modelo after a long hard day getting the boat ready for the trip home.

 

Springlaunch.jpg

 

 

 

I must have just missed you WHL, I was supposed to sail the TS in 74 but the owner backed out.

 

The older C&C's are easy boats to be on, good motion.

 

DSC09696.jpg

 

Is this the same C&C 61 "Joli" that was once dark blue and involved in some import of agricultural goods issues back in the late 70's? If it is I have a few pictures taken when it was up for auction in Seattle. Great boat, entertaining history.

 

Blackbeard

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Why is it the 39s fault you all didn't bring enough supplies?

Just saying....... :P

 

BTW, proud owner of a C&C 35 MK I :D

 

The two C's, Cuthbertson and Cassian were very good designers. They cut their yacht design teeth on gran prix racing boats of the day and they were very succesful. If you research the history of the designers and the company you will find that they were always very near the top of the heap in racing fleets. They produced several boats that I consider clasic today, the old C&C 35, the semi custom 43, the Redline/Newport 41 and one of my all time favorites the C&C 39. They were good.

 

I would really love to see someone write a comprehensive book on the history of C&C.

 

I sailed 2 Seattle/LA/Honolulu/Seattle circuits on the C&C 39 Midnight Special in the late 70's. I learned much about driving downwind with a short ruddered displacement boat from that 39, I still have fond thoughts of the design, but after a 29 day delivery back to Seattle in '79, short on food and water, the lovely Mrs. Blackbeard will not likely step foot on another 39.

 

In the late 80's I owned 1/2 of a 1980 C&C 36 that was a nice boat except downwind with a bit of breeze and sea. A mostly fun and easy boat to handle, the wife and kid enjoyed the cruises to Desolation Sound.

 

Our current boat is a 1970 C&C 43, hull number 1 built at the Bruckmann yard, now named Calypso. Launched as "Arieto", she raced up and down the East Coast doing well in SORC and races out of Boston. As "Phantom" and "Esta Es" the 43 spent +- 20 years on the Great Lakes. We trucked her out to the PNW in 1998 and added the equipment needed to sail 4 seasons and cruise the PNW. In the late 70's the stern was bobbed to plumb. I heard a rumor that the piece cut off ended up on a bar wall. If anybody knows where that piece is I want it back.

 

The 43 is a better all around boat, especially in heavy weather, than the 39 or 36. It appears to be built with left over hardware and spars from the C&C 61 series. The only drawback for me is the lovely Mrs. Blackbeard is intimidated by the weight and power of the 43 and would prefer something around 38'. The maintenance required on a 40 year old boat is a bit high, but having a partnership helps with the cost.

 

There are at least 4 C&C 43's in the Seattle area. The owner of one crewed on Arieto out of Boston. One of the other 43's in the area raced against Arieto for 10 years. From time to time at least 3 of us participate in the Sloop Tav Race to the Straits double handed. Maybe we can get a class start.

 

Blackbeard

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She's one and the same. We've met quite a few folks who have sailed on her and enjoyed their stories. When we repainted it only seemed right to go back to her original name, kind of like sailing on Fridays. The list of upgrades has filled a notebook but the 61 is a wonderful boat and to us has been worth every penny. If you have photos we would love to have digital copies. My e-mail is bryan@boysuno.com

 

Photo for Ishmael, Mrs. Joli sipping a Negra Modelo after a long hard day getting the boat ready for the trip home.

 

Springlaunch.jpg

 

 

 

I must have just missed you WHL, I was supposed to sail the TS in 74 but the owner backed out.

 

The older C&C's are easy boats to be on, good motion.

 

DSC09696.jpg

 

Is this the same C&C 61 "Joli" that was once dark blue and involved in some import of agricultural goods issues back in the late 70's? If it is I have a few pictures taken when it was up for auction in Seattle. Great boat, entertaining history.

 

Blackbeard

 

 

Do you have an interior diagram of Joli that you could post?

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Sorry Greever, we do not, here is Sorcery I believe, all the 61's were custom from Bruckmann. Our deck and interior is substantially different from the 61 shown.

 

We have two cabins to starboard with a Bermuda galley. To port are the nav, saloon, head and triple. The triple will be removed and converted to an array of cabinets, drawers and chart desk ~ 3 foot by 7 foot. Aft is the owners cabin with head/shower and double bunk. Forward of the mast is sail storage, a work bench, and a very large freezer. We met the fellow who built the forward freezer, good guy, fun to talk to, he sailed the boat from California to the Great Lakes. Our aft cockpit is very small, only large enough to drive from, the center cockpit is quite large and surounded by winches.

 

Also we have the tall rig ~ 10 foot taller then the standard rig, our P is ~77'

 

cc_61_drawing.jpg

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he sailed the boat from California to the Great Lakes

 

Hmmmm..... portage from the head of the Columbia or Snake Rivers over to the Missouri, down to St. Louis, then up the Mississippi, and portage again to Superior?

 

:lol:

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he sailed the boat from California to the Great Lakes

 

Hmmmm..... portage from the head of the Columbia or Snake Rivers over to the Missouri, down to St. Louis, then up the Mississippi, and portage again to Superior?

 

:lol:

 

Nah -- too many mountains. I bet they sailed the mystical Northwest Passage to Hudson Bay, then a quick carry across Northern Ontario into Georgian Bay...

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I remember the photographic series on the cover of the "Windward Mark?" catalog from the late 70's or early 80's that showed Joli doing an inside/out spinnaker change on one the their Vic/Maui or Transpac crossings in something like 90 seconds. A truly memorable sequence.

 

We also have some great 8mm film of them from the start of the 80 Vic/Maui. On the Baltic 39 we were wondering about rudder or keel modifications to help overcome the IOR osscilations and talked to Rob Ball, and he told the Owner not to worry, that the once on the ocean with waves to steer against life would be good. Well almost... that's what the blooper was for?

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Joli:

Your boat just looks right.

That whacky keel and rudder fit perfefctly with the sweeping sheerline and artfully crafted deck contours.

Nobody did this things better than C&C.

It's a the yacht equivalent of owning a 12 cylinder Jag XKE, 2+2.

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Why is it the 39s fault you all didn't bring enough supplies?

Just saying....... :P

 

BTW, proud owner of a C&C 35 MK I :D

 

 

I sailed 2 Seattle/LA/Honolulu/Seattle circuits on the C&C 39 Midnight Special in the late 70's. I learned much about driving downwind with a short ruddered displacement boat from that 39, I still have fond thoughts of the design, but after a 29 day delivery back to Seattle in '79, short on food and water, the lovely Mrs. Blackbeard will not likely step foot on another 39.

 

Blackbeard

 

We have pictures of the long line of shopping carts holding all the provisions. The Ali Wai grocery store open a lane just for us. We planned food and water for 6 people for 4 weeks. The back up rations were freeze dried.

 

We raced the Honolulu to Hanalei Bay race to start the delivery back to Seattle. At anchor in Hanalei Bay the boats freezer packed it in. The fresh/frozen provisions were consumed quick or tossed. 2 to 3 days north of Hanalei Bay we experienced a galley fire due to a drunk crew over priming the alcohol stove. It took 2 fire ext. to bring the fire under control after the fuel supply hose burned off the fitting at the back of the sove.

 

1 week out of Hawaii we were cutting the corner on the NE Pacific high (Atomic 4 gas aux engine, 30 gal of gasoline on deck). We stopped the engine to place a SSB call (no sat phone in 1979). The engine never ran again due to undetected salt water intrusion. So now we are short on provisions (fresh/frozen gone early) and becalmed in the NE Pacific high. On our worst day we made good 30 miles. We were moving slow enough that the fishing was not particularly good. The good news was how pleasant the night watches were and being able to read by moon light (no 12v due to the engine loss).

 

As we approached the Washington coast and the Straits of Juan de Fuca, we had not seen the sun for 2 weeks (no GPS in 1979, the RDF was our elect. nav aid). We had been rationing food and water for 2 weeks. Ran out of water the last 18 hours and resorted to Tequila for the 120 miles from Tatoosh Isl to Shilshole Bay marinia. Off Port Townsend, 0:dark:30, the wind dies and the current sweeps us backward. The lovely Mrs. Blackbeard says "F**k this, I'm swimming for it". We talked her down from the edge and the next afternoon sailed into the slip at Shilshole after 29 days. Those cheeseburgers from Burgermaster, delivered by my father-in-law never tasted better.

 

It was not the sailing attributes of the C&C 39 at fault, in fact the light air upwind sailing ability enhanced and shortened our experience. That 39 safely saw the crew through much exciting weather. We temporarily lost wheel steering in high wind and seas off No. California during the delivery to LA. The woodruff key between the quadrant and the rudder shaft sheared. There were about 10 minutes of intense boat handling as we rigged the emergency tiller. The 39 design handled the mid wave circles well. I was thrown over the lee cloth onto the leeward bunks in the first broach. I expect many light weight modern designs would temp the crew to dial 911 under the same conditions.

 

Blackbeard

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That is a great story! Now :lol:

Likely not so fun at the time. I have never HAD to use my tiller, but pre-autopilot I used it in the rain so I could stay dry under the dodger. It worked OK, but the drag of all the steering gear made her a little hard to steer. I guess if the wheel steering was disconnected it would be easier.

Kind of reminds me of hurricane Charlie when the motion stirred up crap in the gas tank so the engine wouldn't run, the main ripped, a battery cracked and dumped acid in the bilge which migrated to a locker and ate through our canned food. That was all OK, but we almost ran out of RUM :o Best part was this was a first sail for one of the crew's girlfriends and she had a good time. For all she knew this was what happened every time you went out :lol:

 

Why is it the 39s fault you all didn't bring enough supplies?

Just saying....... :P

 

BTW, proud owner of a C&C 35 MK I :D

 

 

I sailed 2 Seattle/LA/Honolulu/Seattle circuits on the C&C 39 Midnight Special in the late 70's. I learned much about driving downwind with a short ruddered displacement boat from that 39, I still have fond thoughts of the design, but after a 29 day delivery back to Seattle in '79, short on food and water, the lovely Mrs. Blackbeard will not likely step foot on another 39.

 

Blackbeard

 

We have pictures of the long line of shopping carts holding all the provisions. The Ali Wai grocery store open a lane just for us. We planned food and water for 6 people for 4 weeks. The back up rations were freeze dried.

 

We raced the Honolulu to Hanalei Bay race to start the delivery back to Seattle. At anchor in Hanalei Bay the boats freezer packed it in. The fresh/frozen provisions were consumed quick or tossed. 2 to 3 days north of Hanalei Bay we experienced a galley fire due to a drunk crew over priming the alcohol stove. It took 2 fire ext. to bring the fire under control after the fuel supply hose burned off the fitting at the back of the sove.

 

1 week out of Hawaii we were cutting the corner on the NE Pacific high (Atomic 4 gas aux engine, 30 gal of gasoline on deck). We stopped the engine to place a SSB call (no sat phone in 1979). The engine never ran again due to undetected salt water intrusion. So now we are short on provisions (fresh/frozen gone early) and becalmed in the NE Pacific high. On our worst day we made good 30 miles. We were moving slow enough that the fishing was not particularly good. The good news was how pleasant the night watches were and being able to read by moon light (no 12v due to the engine loss).

 

As we approached the Washington coast and the Straits of Juan de Fuca, we had not seen the sun for 2 weeks (no GPS in 1979, the RDF was our elect. nav aid). We had been rationing food and water for 2 weeks. Ran out of water the last 18 hours and resorted to Tequila for the 120 miles from Tatoosh Isl to Shilshole Bay marinia. Off Port Townsend, 0:dark:30, the wind dies and the current sweeps us backward. The lovely Mrs. Blackbeard says "F**k this, I'm swimming for it". We talked her down from the edge and the next afternoon sailed into the slip at Shilshole after 29 days. Those cheeseburgers from Burgermaster, delivered by my father-in-law never tasted better.

 

It was not the sailing attributes of the C&C 39 at fault, in fact the light air upwind sailing ability enhanced and shortened our experience. That 39 safely saw the crew through much exciting weather. We temporarily lost wheel steering in high wind and seas off No. California during the delivery to LA. The woodruff key between the quadrant and the rudder shaft sheared. There were about 10 minutes of intense boat handling as we rigged the emergency tiller. The 39 design handled the mid wave circles well. I was thrown over the lee cloth onto the leeward bunks in the first broach. I expect many light weight modern designs would temp the crew to dial 911 under the same conditions.

 

Blackbeard

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Thank you for your kind words Bob.

 

We like the boat very much, the whole package is...... pretty, well built, quick, balanced...... it's just right, C&C knew what the hell they were doing. Much as I love the fat ass, high strung girls they will drag you across the deck when the helm loads up, Joli won't do that. It's a funny thing sailing the boat, if it's blowing 10 you go 10, when it's blowing 25 you go 15 but you still carry the same sail. The 100% and full main allows you to sail in a very wide wind range, the heel changes but the balance never goes away. Sometimes I think the guys that only sail the hot boats don't know what they are missing. Todays boats require very attentive sail trim to keep the balance.

 

Mrs. Joli working hard driving the boat.

 

MrsJolidriving.jpg

 

 

Joli:

Your boat just looks right.

That whacky keel and rudder fit perfefctly with the sweeping sheerline and artfully crafted deck contours.

Nobody did this things better than C&C.

It's a the yacht equivalent of owning a 12 cylinder Jag XKE, 2+2.

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Too funny, we gotta go sailing together one day.

 

That is a great story! Now :lol:

Likely not so fun at the time. I have never HAD to use my tiller, but pre-autopilot I used it in the rain so I could stay dry under the dodger. It worked OK, but the drag of all the steering gear made her a little hard to steer. I guess if the wheel steering was disconnected it would be easier.

Kind of reminds me of hurricane Charlie when the motion stirred up crap in the gas tank so the engine wouldn't run, the main ripped, a battery cracked and dumped acid in the bilge which migrated to a locker and ate through our canned food. That was all OK, but we almost ran out of RUM :o Best part was this was a first sail for one of the crew's girlfriends and she had a good time. For all she knew this was what happened every time you went out :lol:

 

Why is it the 39s fault you all didn't bring enough supplies?

Just saying....... :P

 

BTW, proud owner of a C&C 35 MK I :D

 

 

I sailed 2 Seattle/LA/Honolulu/Seattle circuits on the C&C 39 Midnight Special in the late 70's. I learned much about driving downwind with a short ruddered displacement boat from that 39, I still have fond thoughts of the design, but after a 29 day delivery back to Seattle in '79, short on food and water, the lovely Mrs. Blackbeard will not likely step foot on another 39.

 

Blackbeard

 

We have pictures of the long line of shopping carts holding all the provisions. The Ali Wai grocery store open a lane just for us. We planned food and water for 6 people for 4 weeks. The back up rations were freeze dried.

 

We raced the Honolulu to Hanalei Bay race to start the delivery back to Seattle. At anchor in Hanalei Bay the boats freezer packed it in. The fresh/frozen provisions were consumed quick or tossed. 2 to 3 days north of Hanalei Bay we experienced a galley fire due to a drunk crew over priming the alcohol stove. It took 2 fire ext. to bring the fire under control after the fuel supply hose burned off the fitting at the back of the sove.

 

1 week out of Hawaii we were cutting the corner on the NE Pacific high (Atomic 4 gas aux engine, 30 gal of gasoline on deck). We stopped the engine to place a SSB call (no sat phone in 1979). The engine never ran again due to undetected salt water intrusion. So now we are short on provisions (fresh/frozen gone early) and becalmed in the NE Pacific high. On our worst day we made good 30 miles. We were moving slow enough that the fishing was not particularly good. The good news was how pleasant the night watches were and being able to read by moon light (no 12v due to the engine loss).

 

As we approached the Washington coast and the Straits of Juan de Fuca, we had not seen the sun for 2 weeks (no GPS in 1979, the RDF was our elect. nav aid). We had been rationing food and water for 2 weeks. Ran out of water the last 18 hours and resorted to Tequila for the 120 miles from Tatoosh Isl to Shilshole Bay marinia. Off Port Townsend, 0:dark:30, the wind dies and the current sweeps us backward. The lovely Mrs. Blackbeard says "F**k this, I'm swimming for it". We talked her down from the edge and the next afternoon sailed into the slip at Shilshole after 29 days. Those cheeseburgers from Burgermaster, delivered by my father-in-law never tasted better.

 

It was not the sailing attributes of the C&C 39 at fault, in fact the light air upwind sailing ability enhanced and shortened our experience. That 39 safely saw the crew through much exciting weather. We temporarily lost wheel steering in high wind and seas off No. California during the delivery to LA. The woodruff key between the quadrant and the rudder shaft sheared. There were about 10 minutes of intense boat handling as we rigged the emergency tiller. The 39 design handled the mid wave circles well. I was thrown over the lee cloth onto the leeward bunks in the first broach. I expect many light weight modern designs would temp the crew to dial 911 under the same conditions.

 

Blackbeard

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Joli:

they don't make them like that anymore and it is not fair to compare.

The "hot" boat of today is very light and has a huge SA/D. It's a very different game. There is nothing wrong with the design of today's boats it's just that they are far more high powered in terms of hp per lb.

 

If you ever get a chance sail an FT10m. They are a very well balanced boat that will make you feel confident very quickly. Yes, you have to pay attention in a breeze but you will be going very fast and for that group fast is what it's all about. Your hot rod of 35 years ago is considered a sedate boat by today's standards.

 

Funny that you knock boats with fat fannies when your own boat has quite a broad stern compared to other IOR boats of the day. What year is your boat? I mean when was that hull designed? It also looks to me more of a CCA shape than an IOR shape. Maybe that's where your "magic" is. You may have dodged the IOR bullet.

 

What engine do you have?

What speed do you power at?

Have you ever had any core related problems?

I hope you don't mind me asking. I'm a doctor.

Let's put a carbon rig in your boat.

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Ok...I just gotta show this, with all the talk here about C&C drawings.

 

I just had this framed...it's a hand drawn original drawing of our boat, given to us by a generous person who only asked that we treat it like a piece of art and history, which it truly is.

 

It will have an honoured place in our home.

post-25646-1226693043_thumb.jpg

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Bob, I'm not knocking the racing boats of today but they are high strung and you gotta be a snappy sailor to sail them to potential and you better be an even snappier sailor to keep them safe when the shit is nearing the fan. You are not going to slam the hatch boards home and head below, they gotta be driven. You can't run off when the waves are big, you're gonna have to fore reach and pick your spots to cross the tops. They do not really make good cruzzers when you slap a PH on them because the same rules apply.

 

Todays cruzzers are nothing more then glorified condos, they have a big engine, an aft owners cabin that is wide enough for a 48 LCD TV, and wide open spaces that make it easy to fall and break your nose. I understand that's the market, Hunters rule and Henderson does a pretty nice job but they are not good sailing boats. They are mostly built for the dock party crowd.

 

Joli is not fat, beam is only 15 and the transom is maybe 8 foot?

The engine is a 108C6, at 2600 we are around 8.5, powered up maybe 10? We sail quicker then we motor for sure.

No core problems, dry as the proverbial popcorn fart but the hull is glass/balsa/glass/balsa/glass with massive ring frames and stringers, 65k freaking pounds.

We've talked about carbon, maybe one day, but Mike built the rig and it's pretty much bullet proof. We don't race it much............$$$$ why?

 

One day, we are going to make it to Washington and I'm visiting with a 5th of single malt, we're gonna talk. After a couple miles I tend to agree with T Hood, weight, waterline, and a big rig. There is a difference.

 

Oh, and I don't mind you asking at all. I have great respect for you and enjoy your writing.

 

Joli:

they don't make them like that anymore and it is not fair to compare.

The "hot" boat of today is very light and has a huge SA/D. It's a very different game. There is nothing wrong with the design of today's boats it's just that they are far more high powered in terms of hp per lb.

 

If you ever get a chance sail an FT10m. They are a very well balanced boat that will make you feel confident very quickly. Yes, you have to pay attention in a breeze but you will be going very fast and for that group fast is what it's all about. Your hot rod of 35 years ago is considered a sedate boat by today's standards.

 

Funny that you knock boats with fat fannies when your own boat has quite a broad stern compared to other IOR boats of the day. What year is your boat? I mean when was that hull designed? It also looks to me more of a CCA shape than an IOR shape. Maybe that's where your "magic" is. You may have dodged the IOR bullet.

 

What engine do you have?

What speed do you power at?

Have you ever had any core related problems?

I hope you don't mind me asking. I'm a doctor.

Let's put a carbon rig in your boat.

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Joli:

A visit would be fun.

I have designed long and light cruisers (STARBUCK for example) and less longer and heavier cruisers (YONI for example). I think for any serious cruiser ( and I hate that term) weight has it's benefits. It's going to be there, sooner or later anyway, so why not design the boat for it from the onset. Very interesting that JOLI has that double layer of core. That is not often done. I suspect by today's standards your lam scedule is bullet proof. Perfect.

 

I just got asked not to "hawk my wares" on the other site. I told them I'd just go home to SA.

As a very famous sailor once said, "I yam wot I yam."

 

As for the carbon rig: I just thought it would be fun to spend your money.

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Long and light is very fun when carving down the wave but..........it can get very tiring when drawing the circle upwind and then you miss one and fall on your side. Here is what it feels like and be sure, the crew lets you know you are a fuck up. Longer, heavier, powered up, balanced boats are like wearing a cup. :)

 

Ouch.jpg

 

 

 

 

 

Joli:

A visit would be fun.

I have designed long and light cruisers (STARBUCK for example) and less longer and heavier cruisers (YONI for example). I think for any serious cruiser ( and I hate that term) weight has it's benefits. It's going to be there, sooner or later anyway, so why not design the boat for it from the onset. Very interesting that JOLI has that double layer of core. That is not often done. I suspect by today's standards your lam scedule is bullet proof. Perfect.

 

I just got asked not to "hawk my wares" on the other site. I told them I'd just go home to SA.

As a very famous sailor once said, "I yam wot I yam."

 

As for the carbon rig: I just thought it would be fun to spend your money.

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You are ON!

My boat would seem like a scale model to you though........

 

We share the same basic design I think. My max beam is around 10'6" and the stern is about 5' wide. We can hang on longer than the IOR girls can for sure :D

 

 

Too funny, we gotta go sailing together one day.

 

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A little late in the game perhaps but I wonder if any of you C&C fans could compare the 29, 30 and 32 with an eye towards beer can racing and a little cruising.

 

Jon

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(STARBUCK for example)

Bob. Starbuck is a very good looking boat.

Better I think than either of the 'Chicken' boats. Although I wouldn't squawk a the opportunity to cruise

aboard any of the three. What is your theory on the bow hollows. Does it soften the ride to windward

or is it one of your artistic flourishes. I believe I recall you writing about how the hollows in the computer

renderings look less accentuated than they turn out in the lofted hull.

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Nom:

I prefer to think of the bow in 3D and more of how the volume is being distributed forward. Sometimes with a near plum stem I need some hollow to get the volume distributed the way I want it I don't think there is any magic to the hollow entry other than that but it does give a very sharp half angle of entry and if you look at sailing pics boats with some hollow in the wl's fwd. you will often see a very clean bow wave. I don't like to see a rooster tail shooting straight up the stem. That's energy working in the wrong direction. I like a bow that cleaves the water cleanly.

 

 

post-2980-1226769121_thumb.jpg

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My first iMAC post...how do I look??

;)

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My first iMAC post...how do I look??

;)

ooooohhh.....aaaahhh......wow...... hmmmmm......

 

well actually...... no different.... same ol' same 'ol... :P

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My first iMAC post...how do I look??

;)

 

You look broke and trendy. My mother-in-law bought one. Now, when it acts up, I've got the ready made out - how the frig would I know what's wrong with it, it's a Mac for god's sake...

 

Of course, I did once work for the big blue giant, IBM, so the brainwashing against Macs is strong and deep...

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I think I look younger, more handsome, and smarter... but that may just be the Cabernet talking.

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Dan:

You look fabulous!

 

 

That's what the Cabernet said too!!!!

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She's one and the same. We've met quite a few folks who have sailed on her and enjoyed their stories. When we repainted it only seemed right to go back to her original name, kind of like sailing on Fridays. The list of upgrades has filled a notebook but the 61 is a wonderful boat and to us has been worth every penny. If you have photos we would love to have digital copies. My e-mail is bryan@boysuno.com

 

Photo for Ishmael, Mrs. Joli sipping a Negra Modelo after a long hard day getting the boat ready for the trip home.

 

Springlaunch.jpg

 

 

 

Only The Shadow knows!

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Sorry Greever, we do not, here is Sorcery I believe, all the 61's were custom from Bruckmann. Our deck and interior is substantially different from the 61 shown.

 

We have two cabins to starboard with a Bermuda galley. To port are the nav, saloon, head and triple. The triple will be removed and converted to an array of cabinets, drawers and chart desk ~ 3 foot by 7 foot. Aft is the owners cabin with head/shower and double bunk. Forward of the mast is sail storage, a work bench, and a very large freezer. We met the fellow who built the forward freezer, good guy, fun to talk to, he sailed the boat from California to the Great Lakes. Our aft cockpit is very small, only large enough to drive from, the center cockpit is quite large and surounded by winches.

 

Also we have the tall rig ~ 10 foot taller then the standard rig, our P is ~77'

 

cc_61_drawing.jpg

 

 

Joli,

What is the draft of that beast ? Wasn't it a 61 that rolled 360 in a Transpac race ? I think it lost its spar but was otherwise OK. Damn tough boat !!!!!

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Joli,

What is the draft of that beast ? Wasn't it a 61 that rolled 360 in a Transpac race ? I think it lost its spar but was otherwise OK. Damn tough boat !!!!!

 

 

Boat that was rolled was in fact a C&C 61 --- Jake Wood's Sorcery before he anted up for the Mull 83 --- on delivery back to the US. Got kayak rolled by a rogue wave - I saw the boat in Seattle when it finally got in. Steering wheel was bent over by the grip of the helmsman as he went over the side. Now that's some kung fu grip :D

He was tethered but too long -- he surfaced (just) on one side of the boat but was fastened on the other side - not quite long enough for him to fully surface but they got him back on board. I heard that a cast iron frying pan in the galley was found bent over in half...right next to an upbroken bottle of rum (there is a god). Rig, stanchions, anything above the rail got wiped off the boat is how I heard the story --- they laid out the SSB or Ham antenna along the deck after cutting the rig away and were able to communicate.

I wasn't very old when I saw the boat in Seattle but it was seriously trashed.

 

Then there was Joli - owned by the owner/founder (son of?) of Eddie Bauer -- Bill Neimi. Joli was a great racing boat in PNW - lots of pickle dishes. After he sold it, some guys tried to import some leafy green vegetable matter in bales and got busted. Great to see that the boat is now in good hands and living a great life.

 

Bob's right - the C&Cs have great lines and aesthetic beauty. Blackbeard's Calypso is very nice --- the other 43's in Seattle are also kept in pretty good shape and beautiful to see under way.

 

I love my boat but the C&Cs have me beat when it comes to classy lines.

 

WWing

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Ok...I just gotta show this, with all the talk here about C&C drawings.

 

I just had this framed...it's a hand drawn original drawing of our boat, given to us by a generous person who only asked that we treat it like a piece of art and history, which it truly is.

 

It will have an honoured place in our home.

 

 

Is the Maestro a cool guy, or what?

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Is the Maestro a cool guy, or what?

 

 

Don't let that get around...I think he likes to be known as a Scotch swilling, opera glasses hoarding, curmudgeon. ;)

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The only C&C 61 that I had anything to do with ran aground in front of the Sarnia Yacht Club back in the early to mid 80s. It had done the Chicago Mac and was being delivered around to do the PH-Mac. There was heavy fog up about 50 feet off the water and I just noticed the top portion of the mast and the boat was obviously not moving.

 

It was a Tuesday night so no one around but I did find one guy who had a 16 foot runabout. We found them in the fog and they were hard aground. It is a sloping sand bottom there and they had slide a long ways up it. We of course did not have enough boat to pull them off so they asked if we could take there anchour out on the main halyard and they would try to heel her over. There is nothing like standing up in a 16 foot boat and have someone pass you down a Danforth that is taller then you are !

 

We got the anchor set and they heeled her over but she would not move. Along comes a 32 foot cruiser out playing in the fog and with the boat heeled that much he was able to pull them off.

The two pros on the delivery crew were from NZ of course, and were very thankfull that they did not have to tell the owner about their little misadventure. :) The boat was named Koh-I-Noor.

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Thank you for your kind words Bob.

 

We like the boat very much, the whole package is...... pretty, well built, quick, balanced...... it's just right, C&C knew what the hell they were doing. Much as I love the fat ass, high strung girls they will drag you across the deck when the helm loads up, Joli won't do that. It's a funny thing sailing the boat, if it's blowing 10 you go 10, when it's blowing 25 you go 15 but you still carry the same sail. The 100% and full main allows you to sail in a very wide wind range, the heel changes but the balance never goes away. Sometimes I think the guys that only sail the hot boats don't know what they are missing. Todays boats require very attentive sail trim to keep the balance.

 

Mrs. Joli working hard driving the boat.

 

MrsJolidriving.jpg

 

 

Joli:

Your boat just looks right.

That whacky keel and rudder fit perfefctly with the sweeping sheerline and artfully crafted deck contours.

Nobody did this things better than C&C.

It's a the yacht equivalent of owning a 12 cylinder Jag XKE, 2+2.

 

 

 

Very pretty boat, Joli, thanx for the pix. Pretty Ms. Joli also.

 

There is a link to the Sorcery rollover on the Photoalbum, it's an interesting read.

 

 

A little late in the game perhaps but I wonder if any of you C&C fans could compare the 29, 30 and 32 with an eye towards beer can racing and a little cruising.

 

Jon

 

Now we're into Marks:

 

29 Mk I, which was a late 70's boat, very narrow BWL and lots of flare. Fast in light air but loads up fast with the immersed volume when it heels. Has to be sailed flat and is reputedly a very interesting boat downwind in bigger wind.

 

29 Mk II, a totally different boat, also very fast in light air and a little more stable under chute in more wind. We won the "most broaches in one leg" contest in a Typical Cowichan Bay Regatta in a Mk II. Hopeless in big chop, hobbyhorses and stops dead, but wicked fast (for a 1984 boat) close-reaching in flat water. Good luck finding that on a regular basis. Sailed the Swiftsure in one and the skipper decided to go right down the middle on a choppy night. We met a Ranger 26 in Clallam Bay. Owned ours for 8 years, loved the boat.

 

30 Mk I, 70's boat with the shark keel and swept-back rudder. Stiffest production boat C&C ever made, according to legend. I could sail circles around them in light air with the 29, but over 20 knots true they could probably keep up sailed well.

 

The 30 Mk II, a late 80's boat, featured an aft cabin that makes Gollum claustrophobic, a double-spreader tweakable rig, and a cockpit that makes me feel like Gulliver in the land of the Very Short People. Rates way faster than a 29-2, I never raced against one for real, but never thought they were that hot. Maybe if you had the local North loft on your boat, it would be different.

 

The 32 is a nice family boat with a huge cockpit, great for entertaining or crew work. The owners love them, and they sail well. A good all-round boat.

 

 

All my opinions, like 'em or not.

 

 

Ish

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I'm sailing and living aboard a C&C designed Baltic 37, 1979 vintage. NSA looks pretty much like this.

 

Upwind she sails pretty much with anything from 36-40'. Downwind.....she's pushes a lot of water but she isn't slow.

 

Photoboy shot this pic of the NorCal Home Boys last June.

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Joli:

they don't make them like that anymore and it is not fair to compare.

The "hot" boat of today is very light and has a huge SA/D. It's a very different game. There is nothing wrong with the design of today's boats it's just that they are far more high powered in terms of hp per lb.

 

If you ever get a chance sail an FT10m. They are a very well balanced boat that will make you feel confident very quickly. Yes, you have to pay attention in a breeze but you will be going very fast and for that group fast is what it's all about. Your hot rod of 35 years ago is considered a sedate boat by today's standards.

 

Funny that you knock boats with fat fannies when your own boat has quite a broad stern compared to other IOR boats of the day. What year is your boat? I mean when was that hull designed? It also looks to me more of a CCA shape than an IOR shape. Maybe that's where your "magic" is. You may have dodged the IOR bullet.

 

What engine do you have?

What speed do you power at?

Have you ever had any core related problems?

I hope you don't mind me asking. I'm a doctor.

Let's put a carbon rig in your boat.

 

Bob, funny you mention the quick feeling of confidence on the FT10. My wife drove ours (her first race driving) in the first SD Hot Rum, 25-30 kt TWS with higher gusts. She's 5'0'' and <110lbs dripping wet. Just yesterday she said something to the effect of: "I can't believe how easy the boat was to drive--it really made me feel confident". I kid you not. She's loved the boat ever since we got it, but now has a new-found appreciation of it.

 

This is a great thread. I've always liked C&Cs. I didn't know they designed the Newports, but now that I know that, I can see the resemblance, particularly with the N41. The N30 is a classic--had many enjoyable cruises in the San Juan's on my parents in law's MKIII before they sold it. During the '70s we used to see a bright yellow N41 at Catalina called Solana, that always had a Saint Barnard on board. They put the dog in a sling and winched him into the dinghy using a halyard. Quite a site.

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PHM:

Sounds like your wife had some fun with the Tiger.

 

I wish I could take this whole board and give them some time on a Tiger. OK, it's not cruiser comfy like a 60' C&C lead mine ( no offence intended JOLI) but I think a lot of people here would be amazed at how easy the Tiger is to sail. I still get a kick out of going fast and feeling the Tiger lift up and take off is a blast.

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Hi Bob,

 

I would love to sail on an FT. The concept is great, the price point is well within many sailors budget, it looks like a ball to race, it probably feels much a like a Melges or other sport boats, fun, fun, fun!

 

But, the point I was trying to make, probably not too well, is that the higher hp, wider transom boats require a more active sailor, the old lead mines are more forgiving. Many kruzzers have never raced, don't understand sailtrim and can't balance the boat. The wide transom cruiser is built around an lcd screen, air conditioning, a Jimmy Buffet filled Ipod and keeping the missus happy. Wide transoms seem to give the boat a hard spot that shifts the balance more quickly, at least that is how they feel to me. When racing it doesn't matter, good sailors understand trim and balance and trim accordingly. Racers want a light boat with powerful aft sections but I don't think that is the right hull form for a cruising boat. I think a good cruiser is a heavier boat, with a big rig, no overlap, and less beam so it keeps it balance across a broader wind range. Certainly the market has spoken and I'm in the minority. When we were looking for a boat its sailing ability was paramount to us, looks were a close second, and the AC and tv's were removed.

 

Joli

 

 

PHM:

Sounds like your wife had some fun with the Tiger.

 

I wish I could take this whole board and give them some time on a Tiger. OK, it's not cruiser comfy like a 60' C&C lead mine ( no offence intended JOLI) but I think a lot of people here would be amazed at how easy the Tiger is to sail. I still get a kick out of going fast and feeling the Tiger lift up and take off is a blast.

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Joli:

I think we are in agreement on that. Where we may differ is that there is no way I am gong to throw every boat with a wide transom into the same bucket. There are wonderful well balanced boats with wide sterns and there are monsters with wide sterns. There is far more involved in this than just the relative beam at the transom. If we restrict ourselves the the current fleet of Hunbenjencats then I have to agree with you. With those models it's all about volumne aft and balance be damned. Best to keep those boats sailing on their feet.

 

That said a boat like yours with modest L/B and moderate displ. is certainly going to be a more docile boat to sail. It's just that here is a world of sailors out there today who don't want docile. I like them all providing they do the job well.

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Hi Bob,

 

I would love to sail on an FT. The concept is great, the price point is well within many sailors budget, it looks like a ball to race, it probably feels much a like a Melges or other sport boats, fun, fun, fun!

 

But, the point I was trying to make, probably not too well, is that the higher hp, wider transom boats require a more active sailor, the old lead mines are more forgiving. Many kruzzers have never raced, don't understand sailtrim and can't balance the boat. The wide transom cruiser is built around an lcd screen, air conditioning, a Jimmy Buffet filled Ipod and keeping the missus happy. Wide transoms seem to give the boat a hard spot that shifts the balance more quickly, at least that is how they feel to me. When racing it doesn't matter, good sailors understand trim and balance and trim accordingly. Racers want a light boat with powerful aft sections but I don't think that is the right hull form for a cruising boat. I think a good cruiser is a heavier boat, with a big rig, no overlap, and less beam so it keeps it balance across a broader wind range. Certainly the market has spoken and I'm in the minority. When we were looking for a boat its sailing ability was paramount to us, looks were a close second, and the AC and tv's were removed.

 

Joli

 

 

PHM:

Sounds like your wife had some fun with the Tiger.

 

I wish I could take this whole board and give them some time on a Tiger. OK, it's not cruiser comfy like a 60' C&C lead mine ( no offence intended JOLI) but I think a lot of people here would be amazed at how easy the Tiger is to sail. I still get a kick out of going fast and feeling the Tiger lift up and take off is a blast.

 

Hey Guys,

 

Back on line after a couple of killer weeks at work with the added benefit of a kidney stone that they had to go in a get putting me in the hospital for a couple of days.

 

Joli,

 

I agree with you analysis. I find many of the higher SA/D displacement boats have a very narrow performance window, particularly when the seas get up. The difference between overpowered and underpowered is less than 5 knots of AWS. The sport boats are superb in flat water and off the wind. A bit tricky upwind in a chop. Both need to be actively sailed to get anywhere near the performance potential Fat sterned cruisers reach well, but the immersed waterplane changes as they heel make them a lot of work (usually for the autopilot).

 

Moderate displacement boats that place sailing over accomodations/ft can be a real joy.

 

IB

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She's one and the same. We've met quite a few folks who have sailed on her and enjoyed their stories. When we repainted it only seemed right to go back to her original name, kind of like sailing on Fridays. The list of upgrades has filled a notebook but the 61 is a wonderful boat and to us has been worth every penny.

 

If you have photos we would love to have digital copies.

 

Joli,

 

I dug up the pictures (prints, not digital) from the DEA auction around '78 or '79. I think the Helena Star freighter is still around Seattle. I took the shots for a friend that was thinking of moving up in boat size. I think his wife and business outlook changed his mind before the bidding started.

 

The quality of the prints may not scan well. Do you want them snail mailed? PM me if you want the pictures mailed or shipped, or if you want to try the scanning process to check on the quality.

 

What year was Joli launched? Much of the deck hardware and interior finish shown in the pictures matches the old stuff on Calypso. The light fixtures are the same (I still have a few that work), and the shots of the forepeak explain why our reaching strut has tangs on the outboard end (for stowage below deck).

 

My guess is Bruckmann had a bunch of material left over from a 61' and used it on the first 43'. The mast even looks to be the same section, just shorter. I still use the Palmer Johnson fiddle blocks but warn the crew that they are irreplaceable if dropped overboard.

 

Blackbeard

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This came up in another thread...that no matter the size, the C&C's are fast.

 

I've raced againest several of the 27's, and a 30, and no matter how well we sail, these boats always seem to be at the next mark fighting with us for position. They have a great reputation on the Great Lakes and always seem to do well club racing.

 

I have noticed the keels and rudders have a definite shark fin appearance, but I'm sure if it was that simple all our boats would have that look.

 

What is it that makes these boats fast, over so many years, so many lengths, so many designs??

 

Gatekeeper,

 

Did you get your question answered?

 

This topic drifted into a trip down memory lane and a discussion on boat design, but may not have helped you with beating older C&C designs. Maybe those of us that choose to sail these designs are just more persistant.

 

I think the comment about the keel and hull shape allowing a wider sweet spot may also make it easier to stay in a groove. Going upwind during a recent PNW heavy air race we were able to carry more sail safely than many of the newer boats which meant less time spent reefing or changing headsails. It was easy to drive outside of the spray and the occasional entertaining crossing situation.

 

CYCEdmonds.org has a picture of Calypso finishing in a TWS of around 32 knots. We had just added the second reef about a half hour earlier as several boats near us were dropping their main sails or dropping out of the race. We saw a 48 knot gust about 15 minutes later.

 

Blackbeard

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Bob's right - the C&Cs have great lines and aesthetic beauty. Blackbeard's Calypso is very nice --- the other 43's in Seattle are also kept in pretty good shape and beautiful to see under way.

 

I love my boat but the C&Cs have me beat when it comes to classy lines.

 

WWing

 

WWing,

 

Thanks for the kind words re Calypso and the classic C&C lines. All things considered I would choose White Wing (Tim Barnett custom design) over Calypso for a sail to Hawaii or down the West Coast.

 

Sailing back from Hawaii I think a design like Calypso would be a little more comfortable in the up wind conditions. There is a nice shot of a boat that looks like White Wing on the SYC home page, is that you?

 

Blackbeard

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Blackbeard

I talked to an owner of a 43 from Bainbridge Island last summer who mentioned where the transom from Calypso was. Maybe he was repeating your story, but I thought he said a bar in Toronto.

SVGW

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Hello Blackbird, I checked out the photo, good looking boat, reminds me of the Whitby I sailed on when younger. Hard to believe how tough some of the older boats are and Bruckman went above and beyond. We were launched in 74, next year we'll celabrate it's 35th birthday, I'm thinking Molson for the party.

 

We were lucky with gear, the previous owners updated the boat with lots of new gear. Our spar is not original it was repalced in the 80's with a taller rig, the winches were updated to Harken electrics, much of the running gear has been replaced with new Harken Titanium blocks,,,,,,the list is quite endless. The rig is massive, we have been told it is the same section they used on the maxi's, the spar maker checked it out a couple years ago and found nothing wrong and nothing to replace. My wife likes it, she says it doesn't move around much when she is working on it. I'm afraid of heights so she is kind enough to take care of anything higher then 10 feet.

 

Sparwork.jpg

 

I'll pm you my address.

 

Thank you for your kind offer,

 

Joli

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Gatekeeper,

 

Did you get your question answered?

 

This topic drifted into a trip down memory lane and a discussion on boat design, but may not have helped you with beating older C&C designs. Maybe those of us that choose to sail these designs are just more persistant.

 

Blackbeard

 

It was a great learning thread...I'm delighted to read all the opinions.

 

Next year when I beat the C&Cs soundly and I'll start this thread again.

 

 

:P

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