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irwinr

Vendee mains

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Both Dee Cafari and Johnny Malbon are both having delamination problems with their mains. It looks like they both have North sails. Do you think these were new at the start? Exotic sails? Why are they falling apart?

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Paneled cuban fiber seems the most long lived. That said I can't believe these sails were new at the start. If so I think the evil empire has some 'splaining to do.

 

Ducking now.

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Maybe a whole bundle, but he sounds like his decision was based on the main alone:

 

"I keep second-guessing myself that I’ve made the right decision and checking that the main is terminal. I just wiped my hand across the sail and the laminate skin just flies off, the whole thing is on its last legs."

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Maybe a whole bundle, but he sounds like his decision was based on the main alone:

"I keep second-guessing myself that I've made the right decision and checking that the main is terminal. I just wiped my hand across the sail and the laminate skin just flies off, the whole thing is on its last legs."

sounds like he doesn't like getting his hands dirty... ha ha ha

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Can't see that the link is with 3DL - all (remaining) volvo boats use it afaik...

 

no idea of specifics but it could be where water is collecting in the reefs... was what caused Speedboat to drop out of their atlantic attempt.

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This delamination problem has been talked about on SA and is well known.

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I guess there are two questions: 1) Are Artemis and Aviva using North mains? 2) If so, what's the technology that's failing?

 

The story I heard on Speedboat (I was docked next to them in Bermuda) was that the main problems did not force them out. The weather picture was changing and they were going to be unable to beat the record so they bailed out rather than waste their time.

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Cuben Fiber material in OP's main (from 04) is still nearly like new...although some of the seams had to be reglued/sewn after the UV got to it.

The cloth itself is unbelievably durable. A bit surprised that more don't go that route (yes, it's expensive).

 

post-597-1231105650_thumb.jpg

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The biggest problem you will find with the north sails 3dl is they cant use sufficent pressure to laminate the sails, so they use a lot more glue to hold them together. With the prolonged use of this cloth such as in the vendee that has been a couple of months of non stop in harsh conditions with some floging and maybe pumping of sails the cloth cant stay together. A lot of the guys are using the D4 cloth now made by Dimension previous fraser. It is very similar in idea's though is shaped normaly through horizontal shaping seams, and has a few ton's of pressure when laminating. They can use a lot less glue, which makes they sail a heap lighter. With a far better lamination they last a lot longer.

 

I have dealt with 3dl and d4. 3dl is good but far to heavy for my liking, and does wear out pretty quickly if used a lot compared to other fabrics including d4. With the heavy weight you have a smaller wind range, they dont fill as early as a D4 sail would.

 

D4 has all the yarns laid in a similar way to 3dl so that side of things is close enough to the same. But D4 is lighter and last longer. I feel D4 hasn't been advertised properly so 3dl is still the dominete cloth.

 

It doesn't surprise me that 3dl is falling apart after this amount of time

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The biggest problem you will find with the north sails 3dl is they cant use sufficent pressure to laminate the sails, so they use a lot more glue to hold them together. With the prolonged use of this cloth such as in the vendee that has been a couple of months of non stop in harsh conditions with some floging and maybe pumping of sails the cloth cant stay together. A lot of the guys are using the D4 cloth now made by Dimension previous fraser. It is very similar in idea's though is shaped normaly through horizontal shaping seams, and has a few ton's of pressure when laminating. They can use a lot less glue, which makes they sail a heap lighter. With a far better lamination they last a lot longer.

 

I have dealt with 3dl and d4. 3dl is good but far to heavy for my liking, and does wear out pretty quickly if used a lot compared to other fabrics including d4. With the heavy weight you have a smaller wind range, they dont fill as early as a D4 sail would.

 

D4 has all the yarns laid in a similar way to 3dl so that side of things is close enough to the same. But D4 is lighter and last longer. I feel D4 hasn't been advertised properly so 3dl is still the dominete cloth.

 

It doesn't surprise me that 3dl is falling apart after this amount of time

 

Any D4's in this Vendee?

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The biggest problem you will find with the north sails 3dl is they cant use sufficent pressure to laminate the sails, so they use a lot more glue to hold them together. With the prolonged use of this cloth such as in the vendee that has been a couple of months of non stop in harsh conditions with some floging and maybe pumping of sails the cloth cant stay together. A lot of the guys are using the D4 cloth now made by Dimension previous fraser. It is very similar in idea's though is shaped normaly through horizontal shaping seams, and has a few ton's of pressure when laminating. They can use a lot less glue, which makes they sail a heap lighter. With a far better lamination they last a lot longer.

 

I have dealt with 3dl and d4. 3dl is good but far to heavy for my liking, and does wear out pretty quickly if used a lot compared to other fabrics including d4. With the heavy weight you have a smaller wind range, they dont fill as early as a D4 sail would.

 

D4 has all the yarns laid in a similar way to 3dl so that side of things is close enough to the same. But D4 is lighter and last longer. I feel D4 hasn't been advertised properly so 3dl is still the dominete cloth.

 

It doesn't surprise me that 3dl is falling apart after this amount of time

 

Any D4's in this Vendee?

 

There is quite a bit of D4 in the Vendee, mainly via Incidences Sailmakers of France.

 

The boats ( including retired ) using D4 include :

 

Foncia

Veolia

PRB

Brit Air

Roxy

Safran

BT ( a headsail )

Akena

Great American III

Gitana 80

Cheminees Poujoulat

Delta Dore

Temonos II

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Haji's first (I think) main was D4 and it got him around the globe once OK. Good enough shape to get him to France for the start of his Vendee.

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Another 3DL sail delaminating? In it's first year? Big surprise.

 

I think anyone who's done any offshore racing with ageing 3DLs is used to the "delam dandruff" that shakes off the the back of them when they get old.

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Another 3DL sail delaminating? In it's first year? Big surprise.

 

I think anyone who's done any offshore racing with ageing 3DLs is used to the "delam dandruff" that shakes off the the back of them when they get old.

 

no one ever takes the "Do Not Use in Marine Environment" label seriously, i know a few yacht builders that put those on their hulls too...!

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Haji's first (I think) main was D4 and it got him around the globe once OK. Good enough shape to get him to France for the start of his Vendee.

 

Yep, D4 rocks. Actually a tough call between Cuben Fiber and Vectran D4. For anything other than the VG or something else extreme, the D4 is probably better. For the VG, a really big sail (mega-multihull, etc), or for ultimate durability, I'd give Cuben the nod.

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AAAAAGGGGHHHH - it's like beating my head against a wall!!!

 

I have no allegance to any brand but I can't see this is a technology issue if the Volvo fleet are using this too!

 

Speedboat main was very punked and whilst they didn't need all of it in the conditions of the time (25+), they were going to have to cross a light air ridge nearer the UK so would then...

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Elvis, the Volvo is totally different. Fully crewed - so optimized trim all the time. Multiple stops for sail service. Different route. Not at all like the usage a single handed non stop race sees.

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Elvis, the Volvo is totally different. Fully crewed - so optimized trim all the time. Multiple stops for sail service. Different route. Not at all like the usage a single handed non stop race sees.

 

why do the de-lam on some not on others ? anything to do with how the sails are cured maybe?

 

is it the same with Quantum or have they solved the problem

 

guess the volvo sails have more love and care, and more sail makers keeping an eye on them.

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Elvis, the Volvo is totally different. Fully crewed - so optimized trim all the time. Multiple stops for sail service. Different route. Not at all like the usage a single handed non stop race sees.

 

why do the de-lam on some not on others ? anything to do with how the sails are cured maybe?

 

is it the same with Quantum or have they solved the problem

 

guess the volvo sails have more love and care, and more sail makers keeping an eye on them.

 

Only Bazurko had Quantum sails, and he has retired before reaching Cape-Town latitude.

 

As for the other North Sails: Le Cam does not seem to have any trouble and Thompson sounds OK, those are the ones, I know, who are still in the race with plagued Aviva.

I do not know what Sedlacek has, and I had the feeling that Steve White had woven new sails, M.be even from Incidences.

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i think you must have pressed the wrong button, i was awaiting your reply?

 

 

also think i should have finished with a question mark not a full stop in my last post. it would have made more sense.

 

pushed the right button, but .....too early ! ;)

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according to the article on xsracing, "Artemis's mainsail began delaminating three weeks ago, apparently due to a problem with the adhesion between the scrim and fibers. Over the past 24 hours the sail has broken down further, with a one meter-long vertical tear developing as the final taffeta layer also began to disintegrate. The damage is so severe that Malbon cannot repair it onboard..." it could be a manufacturing error or the materials were somehow weakened on Johnny's boat, not affecting anyone else.

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That would certainly do it, especially if they were carbon battens in the internal pockets. Unless you wrap the carbon battens in insignia (sail repair tape) when they break, they shatter and its a huge mess.

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can't but think it is also shows up the experience of the two skippers (malbon and caffri) and the way they sail their boats. Hard to see Mich Desj packing up when he has a tear in his mainsail.....on the other hand when you are 4,000 miles behind and passing close to NZ it must be tempting....

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can't but think it is also shows up the experience of the two skippers (malbon and caffri) and the way they sail their boats. Hard to see Mich Desj packing up when he has a tear in his mainsail.....on the other hand when you are 4,000 miles behind and passing close to NZ it must be tempting....

 

i'm gonna let someone else tell you i told you so shall i ?

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can't but think it is also shows up the experience of the two skippers (malbon and caffri) and the way they sail their boats. Hard to see Mich Desj packing up when he has a tear in his mainsail.....on the other hand when you are 4,000 miles behind and passing close to NZ it must be tempting....

 

Speak for your own character, that's a bullshit suggestion to make about Malbon or Caffari. The years of work it takes to get to be able to atually start the VG has certainly screened out anyone who would like to just find a nice excuse to bail out.

 

When was the last time you sailed around the world non-stop AGAINST the prevailing wind and current?

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can't but think it is also shows up the experience of the two skippers (malbon and caffri) and the way they sail their boats.

 

im guessing, and making wild assumptions (its an internet forum!) that there mains have spent significantly longer flogging than the more experienced guys

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Speak for your own character, that's a bullshit suggestion to make about Malbon or Caffari. The years of work it takes to get to be able to actually start the VG has certainly screened out anyone who would like to just find a nice excuse to bail out.

you would have hoped so mate but I think you'll find a lot of people would disagree with you and not just on this site

 

but have a read about Jonny Malbon i hear there is quite a lot to be read about him on SA, may even have a few topics actually dedicated to him and his successes

 

G

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AAAAAGGGGHHHH - it's like beating my head against a wall!!!

 

I have no allegance to any brand but I can't see this is a technology issue if the Volvo fleet are using this too!

 

Speedboat main was very punked and whilst they didn't need all of it in the conditions of the time (25+), they were going to have to cross a light air ridge nearer the UK so would then...

 

 

I dont fully know why the volvo boats are mainly using 3dl, but if you do have a read on there sites there is boats saying they are trying to get through these stages with there current sails so they can have the newer sails for the last few legs as they are only allowed so many sails for the event. The volvo boats have many stop overs so they can fix there sails, recut, relaminate etc. The vendee guys need a sail to last the full event. My choice would be D4 and probaly with a dyneema yarn. It will be interesting to see how other 3dl sails last for the full trip compared to D4.

 

Most of the orma boats had D4 sails on them aswell and worked extremely well. Hence Loick and Michel having D4. Long life, lighter and more durable.

 

I have personaly built D4 sails and even after a couple of years the sails including headsails still look like new with out problems when used under normal circumstances. If you have a problem with a D4 sail it can be a lot easier to fix than a 3dl sail as the general section is flat with some shaping seams instead of a continous molded sail. Hard to repair a rounded surface.

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AAAAAGGGGHHHH - it's like beating my head against a wall!!!

 

I have no allegance to any brand but I can't see this is a technology issue if the Volvo fleet are using this too!

 

Speedboat main was very punked and whilst they didn't need all of it in the conditions of the time (25+), they were going to have to cross a light air ridge nearer the UK so would then...

 

 

I dont fully know why the volvo boats are mainly using 3dl, but if you do have a read on there sites there is boats saying they are trying to get through these stages with there current sails so they can have the newer sails for the last few legs as they are only allowed so many sails for the event. The volvo boats have many stop overs so they can fix there sails, recut, relaminate etc. The vendee guys need a sail to last the full event. My choice would be D4 and probaly with a dyneema yarn. It will be interesting to see how other 3dl sails last for the full trip compared to D4.

 

Most of the orma boats had D4 sails on them aswell and worked extremely well. Hence Loick and Michel having D4. Long life, lighter and more durable.

 

I have personaly built D4 sails and even after a couple of years the sails including headsails still look like new with out problems when used under normal circumstances. If you have a problem with a D4 sail it can be a lot easier to fix than a 3dl sail as the general section is flat with some shaping seams instead of a continous molded sail. Hard to repair a rounded surface.

 

What a crock of shit.

 

Relaminating?? how do you do that....?

 

You obviously have a reason to bag the 3DL as you are competing against them.

I have no problem with D4, it is about the best of the panneled 'string' sails but it is just so far off the pace compared to 3DL....

 

Have you ever tried to fix a 3DL sail? I can tell you that it is no harder than any other sail, the only issues is that it shows up more cos the sail is not already filled with joins everywhere. Believe me I have fixed hundreds of all kind of sails all around the world.

 

Have you ever thought that the delam might have been caused by excess water collected in the foot while reefed (the biggest issue these days with fast ocean racing boats) or major chaffe while reefed or a broken batten..... the list goes on.

 

also your comment on 3DL no getting as much pressure as the D4 membranes... vacume is far better than direct pressure anyday. direct pressure just squashes the yarns and doesnot get rid of any of the glue in between the yarns, press as hard as you want but yarns are thicker than the film by a long way, vacuming actually eliminates all the voids in the laminate and allows you to use half the glue. the heat (making the film softer) and vacume combined is unbeatable.

And I think you will find that a 3DL sail is generally substantially lighter than a D4.

 

Rant over.

 

carry on.

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AAAAAGGGGHHHH - it's like beating my head against a wall!!!

 

I have no allegance to any brand but I can't see this is a technology issue if the Volvo fleet are using this too!

 

Speedboat main was very punked and whilst they didn't need all of it in the conditions of the time (25+), they were going to have to cross a light air ridge nearer the UK so would then...

 

 

I dont fully know why the volvo boats are mainly using 3dl, but if you do have a read on there sites there is boats saying they are trying to get through these stages with there current sails so they can have the newer sails for the last few legs as they are only allowed so many sails for the event. The volvo boats have many stop overs so they can fix there sails, recut, relaminate etc. The vendee guys need a sail to last the full event. My choice would be D4 and probaly with a dyneema yarn. It will be interesting to see how other 3dl sails last for the full trip compared to D4.

 

Most of the orma boats had D4 sails on them aswell and worked extremely well. Hence Loick and Michel having D4. Long life, lighter and more durable.

 

I have personaly built D4 sails and even after a couple of years the sails including headsails still look like new with out problems when used under normal circumstances. If you have a problem with a D4 sail it can be a lot easier to fix than a 3dl sail as the general section is flat with some shaping seams instead of a continous molded sail. Hard to repair a rounded surface.

 

What a crock of shit.

 

Relaminating?? how do you do that....?

 

You obviously have a reason to bag the 3DL as you are competing against them.

I have no problem with D4, it is about the best of the panneled 'string' sails but it is just so far off the pace compared to 3DL....

 

Have you ever tried to fix a 3DL sail? I can tell you that it is no harder than any other sail, the only issues is that it shows up more cos the sail is not already filled with joins everywhere. Believe me I have fixed hundreds of all kind of sails all around the world.

 

Have you ever thought that the delam might have been caused by excess water collected in the foot while reefed (the biggest issue these days with fast ocean racing boats) or major chaffe while reefed or a broken batten..... the list goes on.

 

also your comment on 3DL no getting as much pressure as the D4 membranes... vacume is far better than direct pressure anyday. direct pressure just squashes the yarns and doesnot get rid of any of the glue in between the yarns, press as hard as you want but yarns are thicker than the film by a long way, vacuming actually eliminates all the voids in the laminate and allows you to use half the glue. the heat (making the film softer) and vacume combined is unbeatable.

And I think you will find that a 3DL sail is generally substantially lighter than a D4.

 

Rant over.

 

carry on.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I think you need to pick up a 3dl sail and then pick up a D4, I think you will be surpised by the weight difference.

 

3dl uses a lot of glue to lay there yarns, D4 uses minor. 3dl vacumm bags, D4 vacumm and uses pressure, depending on sail. Both use heat. Maybe u should try to laminate something using vacumm and another thing the same using pressure as most things are laminated, you will most likely be surprised by the difference. Pressure will mould the peices together a lot better than just vacumm bagging. Vacumm bagging trys to suck the air out which is important but does not use enough pressure from this to laminate as well as using pressure through a roller. Which is why 3dl is resin rich. Maybe you should have a look at the way the 2 different sails are made as D4 uses minimal resin to hold the yarns in place untill it is laminated. A D4 sail is a clearer film to look at indicating it is laminated better

 

Yes 3dl can be fixed easy I said it is harder to fix depnding on what sort of repair is needed, sure a small repair is nothing but something major or a recut is more complex than a D4 sail

 

The only reason why I would put down a 3dl is I dont think they last long enough compared to other gear for what you pay for them.

 

You said 3dl is far better performance. I think the results so far in the vendee dissagree with you. Most of the boats who have lead so far have used D4. Take Loick who a lot of people said was getting on and didnt stand as much of a chance actualy lead a lot of the race and was in a great spot untill his mast broke. I personaly had him as a favourite. Then you look at our current leader Michel, he started a long way behind after having to restart and has lead for a long time and seams to be sitting comfortable playing with the fleat. Both guys I have a lot of time for and would love to be part of there teams

 

I have seen some sails while still new enough be relaminated if there was a fault. It can be done.

 

My opinions are generalised not neccassarily for the vendee. I have a 3dl headsail a couple of years old under my place that is destroyed from delamination that isn't from rubbing or water. I have used all the different kinds of sails on different boats. 3dl is good and so is D4, but i prefer D4 for a value for money side of things. I still believe that D4 is far lighter and so do the other sailors around here. I am not trying to put 3dl down especialy not that its a north product. I have heard north will sell others a 3dl section. Look into the process's a bit more you might be surprised

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whos turn is it to get the beer and popcorn?

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anybody know if the taffeta was on the inside or outside of these failed laminates?

 

The taffeta core laminates are supposed to be more flog resistant.

 

 

 

ed

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anybody know if the taffeta was on the inside or outside of these failed laminates?

 

The taffeta core laminates are supposed to be more flog resistant.

 

 

 

ed

 

not sure about the North Sails, an Oz friend of mine who works with some of the Dimension guys says the Incidences D4 sails are taffeta on the outside. A lot of the problems, they think, are from how the poeple sail the boats and not the quality of the sails but who knows. One thing that's interesting, though, is that with LeCam losing his keel, the top 5 boats now are all Incidences. Again, breakdowns leading to withdrawal don't have anything to do with sails (except in a one case) but maybe teh sailors ore more confident in what they have up and push harder?

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think I'll back Booboo here........

 

 

Oh, I don't know ab out that ... everything that jmsails says seems to coincide with my own experience. We are in gen 1 of the sails for the new boat and went paneled for those until we get the shapes right then will be switching to D4 in gen 2, but I had an extensive suite of D4's on the old boat and everything he says about the D4 is true. I have also had long conversations with folks who used the 3DL products and many of jmsails comments are similar to what I heard from them.

 

I also am immediately suspicious when Booboo throws out that "D4 is paneled and 3DL is not paneled" line..... as has been hashed out on these forums about a million times they are all paneled in some way, so the semantics game is a silly one.

 

It is interesting to see that Incidences, a North affiliated loft and one of the best known in the world of solo offshore guys, uses D4..... bit of a statement about 3DL in that fact. What is also interesting is that if you go through the Open 60 fleet and the Class 40 fleet there is no one loft that dominates, and what is fascinating is the number of smaller independent french lofts that are represented.

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...

 

also your comment on 3DL no getting as much pressure as the D4 membranes... vacume is far better than direct pressure anyday. direct pressure just squashes the yarns and doesnot get rid of any of the glue in between the yarns, press as hard as you want but yarns are thicker than the film by a long way, vacuming actually eliminates all the voids in the laminate and allows you to use half the glue. the heat (making the film softer) and vacume combined is unbeatable.

...

I won't comment on the rest of the post, but this is misleading at best.

When laminating, more pressure is better. 3DL is limited to 1atm or less. Normal sail cloth is laminated (with heat) at significantly higher pressure, I think often applied by one or more rollers, which doesn't have to be so hard as to only press on the fibers. I don't think anyone would claim that 3DL is as durable as laminated cloth. Similarly, D4 is also laminated at pressures significantly greater than 1atm, and I believe heat is applied, as well.

 

Volvo teams are typically populated with many people from AC world, where almost all sail designers are affiliated with North, which could explain how many Volvo campaigns use North.

 

Although not well known on this side of the pond, Incidences supplies (among other things) a lot of Mini's & multi's, so they have a pretty good idea of how to build an offshore sail.

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...

 

also your comment on 3DL no getting as much pressure as the D4 membranes... vacume is far better than direct pressure anyday. direct pressure just squashes the yarns and doesnot get rid of any of the glue in between the yarns, press as hard as you want but yarns are thicker than the film by a long way, vacuming actually eliminates all the voids in the laminate and allows you to use half the glue. the heat (making the film softer) and vacume combined is unbeatable.

...

I won't comment on the rest of the post, but this is misleading at best.

When laminating, more pressure is better. 3DL is limited to 1atm or less. Normal sail cloth is laminated (with heat) at significantly higher pressure, I think often applied by one or more rollers, which doesn't have to be so hard as to only press on the fibers. I don't think anyone would claim that 3DL is as durable as laminated cloth. Similarly, D4 is also laminated at pressures significantly greater than 1atm, and I believe heat is applied, as well.

 

Volvo teams are typically populated with many people from AC world, where almost all sail designers are affiliated with North, which could explain how many Volvo campaigns use North.

 

Although not well known on this side of the pond, Incidences supplies (among other things) a lot of Mini's & multi's, so they have a pretty good idea of how to build an offshore sail.

 

 

For some reason I thought that Incidences was affiliated with North, but after checking their site it looks like I am wrong. One thing is for sure... they make some beautiful sails. One of the reasons why Gio Soldini cleans up in the Class 40 is his sails, which absolutley perfect. Incidences makes them.

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RM, true, Gio uses Incidences, but I believe he has design input from UK Italia...

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RM, true, Gio uses Incidences, but I believe he has design input from UK Italia...

 

 

Could be, which speaks well of Incidences that they allow that kind of input. His sails are awesome. We used his as the base line for what we were shooting for when designing and building my sails.

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I dunno about this generation, but I know the assa abloy 3DL main (2001 Volvo) went around the world twice, was used for Hugo Boss's marketing campaign (far from fully optimized sail trim) and for ericson's training before the 2004 Volvo before it started delaminating. So either they're flogging the shit out of those sails, or they had a bad batch of glue.

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or they had a bad batch of glue.

 

Not a good reason do not let it happen in the first place!

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I dunno about this generation, but I know the assa abloy 3DL main (2001 Volvo) went around the world twice, was used for Hugo Boss's marketing campaign (far from fully optimized sail trim) and for ericson's training before the 2004 Volvo before it started delaminating. So either they're flogging the shit out of those sails, or they had a bad batch of glue.

DOUBLE SIDED HEAVY TAFFETA, MAKES A DIFFERENCE....

 

D4 LASTS LONGER ON SINGLEHANDED OCEAN THAN 3DL 'THREE DAYS LEFT'

 

OF COURSE HAJI IS RIGHT, THIS IS A WAR OF ATTRITION NOT A TP52 W/L IN 8 KTS

 

GLAD JEAN AND VINCE HAVE MADE IT, FULL RESPECT, MH

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I dunno about this generation, but I know the assa abloy 3DL main (2001 Volvo) went around the world twice, was used for Hugo Boss's marketing campaign (far from fully optimized sail trim) and for ericson's training before the 2004 Volvo before it started delaminating. So either they're flogging the shit out of those sails, or they had a bad batch of glue.

DOUBLE SIDED HEAVY TAFFETA, MAKES A DIFFERENCE....

 

D4 LASTS LONGER ON SINGLEHANDED OCEAN THAN 3DL 'THREE DAYS LEFT'

 

OF COURSE HAJI IS RIGHT, THIS IS A WAR OF ATTRITION NOT A TP52 W/L IN 8 KTS

 

GLAD JEAN AND VINCE HAVE MADE IT, FULL RESPECT, MH

 

Well, If AOR and Aviva don't have double sided heavy taffeta, then they're getting no sympathy and no north blaming from me. If you plan on sailing around the world, some things are just logical.

 

Oh and Driftwood, I'm not North's chemist, I'm just offering a possible cause.

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Seems no tafetta on AOR, but yes on Aviva.

 

Here in Spain we call de 3DL "3 Dias Llorando", (3 days crying)

 

Mike Golding told me at the Velux 5 Oceans start that they had a different sail program depending on the race type: Lighter tafetta free (or one side tafetta) for shorter races, double sided heavy tafettas for Vendee.

 

It´s clear that Incidences are the guys to go with. Not only in Ocean shorthanded racing. A lot of top round the buoys boats in France wears Incidences. It´s difficult to find any North in podium places.

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...

 

also your comment on 3DL no getting as much pressure as the D4 membranes... vacume is far better than direct pressure anyday. direct pressure just squashes the yarns and doesnot get rid of any of the glue in between the yarns, press as hard as you want but yarns are thicker than the film by a long way, vacuming actually eliminates all the voids in the laminate and allows you to use half the glue. the heat (making the film softer) and vacume combined is unbeatable.

...

I won't comment on the rest of the post, but this is misleading at best.

When laminating, more pressure is better. 3DL is limited to 1atm or less. Normal sail cloth is laminated (with heat) at significantly higher pressure, I think often applied by one or more rollers, which doesn't have to be so hard as to only press on the fibers. I don't think anyone would claim that 3DL is as durable as laminated cloth. Similarly, D4 is also laminated at pressures significantly greater than 1atm, and I believe heat is applied, as well.

 

Volvo teams are typically populated with many people from AC world, where almost all sail designers are affiliated with North, which could explain how many Volvo campaigns use North.

 

Although not well known on this side of the pond, Incidences supplies (among other things) a lot of Mini's & multi's, so they have a pretty good idea of how to build an offshore sail.

 

 

For some reason I thought that Incidences was affiliated with North, but after checking their site it looks like I am wrong. One thing is for sure... they make some beautiful sails. One of the reasons why Gio Soldini cleans up in the Class 40 is his sails, which absolutley perfect. Incidences makes them.

 

Incidences are fully private and are owned by 4 knees-on sailmakers who built a group with 6500 sqm of floor from scratch, earning their entry into the racing machines by their own results on the water.

 

One thing I know, for monitoring it closely, is that they put a lot of work into mastering D4, the hard way, from the early days of Bob Fraser , I think it was 2003 when Bilou had the early D4 sails on board.

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Hehehe

 

You guys are on fire

 

I am sure it will please everyone to know that the times are changing

I recommend looking up www.onesails.com for the next big thing....no glue!!

 

And dont forget the impending public release of 3di ( the next hideously expensive step from the evil empire)

sure to be marketed quite well.

 

Flame away

 

 

 

 

 

Seems no tafetta on AOR, but yes on Aviva.

 

Here in Spain we call de 3DL "3 Dias Llorando", (3 days crying)

 

Mike Golding told me at the Velux 5 Oceans start that they had a different sail program depending on the race type: Lighter tafetta free (or one side tafetta) for shorter races, double sided heavy tafettas for Vendee.

 

It´s clear that Incidences are the guys to go with. Not only in Ocean shorthanded racing. A lot of top round the buoys boats in France wears Incidences. It´s difficult to find any North in podium places.

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Incidence do rock

runs on the board hard earned

 

 

 

...

 

also your comment on 3DL no getting as much pressure as the D4 membranes... vacume is far better than direct pressure anyday. direct pressure just squashes the yarns and doesnot get rid of any of the glue in between the yarns, press as hard as you want but yarns are thicker than the film by a long way, vacuming actually eliminates all the voids in the laminate and allows you to use half the glue. the heat (making the film softer) and vacume combined is unbeatable.

...

I won't comment on the rest of the post, but this is misleading at best.

When laminating, more pressure is better. 3DL is limited to 1atm or less. Normal sail cloth is laminated (with heat) at significantly higher pressure, I think often applied by one or more rollers, which doesn't have to be so hard as to only press on the fibers. I don't think anyone would claim that 3DL is as durable as laminated cloth. Similarly, D4 is also laminated at pressures significantly greater than 1atm, and I believe heat is applied, as well.

 

Volvo teams are typically populated with many people from AC world, where almost all sail designers are affiliated with North, which could explain how many Volvo campaigns use North.

 

Although not well known on this side of the pond, Incidences supplies (among other things) a lot of Mini's & multi's, so they have a pretty good idea of how to build an offshore sail.

 

 

For some reason I thought that Incidences was affiliated with North, but after checking their site it looks like I am wrong. One thing is for sure... they make some beautiful sails. One of the reasons why Gio Soldini cleans up in the Class 40 is his sails, which absolutley perfect. Incidences makes them.

 

Incidences are fully private and are owned by 4 knees-on sailmakers who built a group with 6500 sqm of floor from scratch, earning their entry into the racing machines by their own results on the water.

 

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Hehehe

 

You guys are on fire

 

I am sure it will please everyone to know that the times are changing

I recommend looking up www.onesails.com for the next big thing....no glue!!

 

And dont forget the impending public release of 3di ( the next hideously expensive step from the evil empire)

sure to be marketed quite well.

 

Flame away

 

 

No Glue! Excellent.

 

That is a stroke of marketing genius to replace old fashioned heavy "glues" with a revolutionary "polymer".

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Just looked on the Vendee and there is video of the Aviva before and after mainsail repair by Dee. Check it out !

 

Repaired the delaination with epoxy resin and sikaflex in lots of large patches.

 

Surely this can't be good, epoxy would be too brittle, especially if it coats the fibres. Just wait till the sail flogs a bit or gets reefed and bingo the fibres will break.

 

Looks like another retirement soon, because 3DL wasn't up to the task.

 

Oh, and BooBoo, guess the brainwashing that you get by working at Norths NZ works, you tow the company line pretty well.

 

Brucey out.

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What a crock of shit.

 

Relaminating?? how do you do that....?

 

You obviously have a reason to bag the 3DL as you are competing against them.

I have no problem with D4, it is about the best of the panneled 'string' sails but it is just so far off the pace compared to 3DL....

 

Have you ever tried to fix a 3DL sail? I can tell you that it is no harder than any other sail, the only issues is that it shows up more cos the sail is not already filled with joins everywhere. Believe me I have fixed hundreds of all kind of sails all around the world.

 

Have you ever thought that the delam might have been caused by excess water collected in the foot while reefed (the biggest issue these days with fast ocean racing boats) or major chaffe while reefed or a broken batten..... the list goes on.

 

also your comment on 3DL no getting as much pressure as the D4 membranes... vacume is far better than direct pressure anyday. direct pressure just squashes the yarns and doesnot get rid of any of the glue in between the yarns, press as hard as you want but yarns are thicker than the film by a long way, vacuming actually eliminates all the voids in the laminate and allows you to use half the glue. the heat (making the film softer) and vacume combined is unbeatable.

And I think you will find that a 3DL sail is generally substantially lighter than a D4.

 

Rant over.

 

carry on.

 

Forget it BooBoo.....they're not worth getting upset over. The fact of the matter is that North makes the best sails (why else would they be the #1 sailmaker in the world at pretty much every level) and it pisses people off because they can't afford them. We have NO WAY of knowing where the failure occured in Dee/JM's sails and until its figured out, all of this is just speculation. For all we know, they could have been flogging from day 1 and may have lasted way longer than anything else would have.

 

Just not worth letting the "North Bashers" get you in a knot.

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The fact of the matter is that North makes the best sails (why else would they be the #1 sailmaker in the world at pretty much every level) and it pisses people off because they can't afford them.

 

Did you really just say that? Wow.....

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The fact of the matter is that North makes the best sails (why else would they be the #1 sailmaker in the world at pretty much every level) and it pisses people off because they can't afford them.

 

Did you really just say that? Wow.....

 

Forgive them doghouse, they needed the job :P

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The fact of the matter is that North makes the best sails (why else would they be the #1 sailmaker in the world at pretty much every level) and it pisses people off because they can't afford them.

 

Did you really just say that? Wow.....

 

Forgive them doghouse, they needed the job :P

 

:lol:

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Just looked on the Vendee and there is video of the Aviva before and after mainsail repair by Dee. Check it out !

 

Repaired the delaination with epoxy resin and sikaflex in lots of large patches.

 

Surely this can't be good, epoxy would be too brittle, especially if it coats the fibres. Just wait till the sail flogs a bit or gets reefed and bingo the fibres will break.

 

Looks like another retirement soon, because 3DL wasn't up to the task.

 

Oh, and BooBoo, guess the brainwashing that you get by working at Norths NZ works, you tow the company line pretty well.

 

Brucey out.

 

It depends on the epoxy, you can get epoxys now that are quite rubber like. Booboo probably has more experience than anyone posting here. And 3DL is molded and will have a more accurate and fairer shape than a sail shaped on the floor from flat panels. But this race is also about durability and it looks like Norths is failing the durability test.

 

Personally I wouldn't trust 3DL for a race like this and definitely nothing from Q, unless its one of their special Fusions M's thats actually a D4 :P Stratis you are lucky if you make it out the harbour. DP make some pretty tough panel sail fabrics. My thoughts would be to make the taffetas strong enough (dyneema etc) so even if the sail delaminates it will stay in one piece, it will just be 2 ply with some fibres floating around :)

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Looking at that I wonder, if the tafetta is coming off "so what"? If the film(s) and scrims/load bearing yarns is/are intact, more or less, that's what matters.

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Looking at that I wonder, if the tafetta is coming off "so what"? If the film(s) and scrims/load bearing yarns is/are intact, more or less, that's what matters.

 

My guess is that the "taffeta" coming off is actually a taffeta/film component. This leaves the exposed fibre you can see and the surface component for the other side. Not good.

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OK, got it. The taffeta/film component is that fabulous stuff called Norlam. Not so sure though. In the photo there is a piece of white material hanging down and I don't see any film on it. Possible, I suppose, that the film left the taffetta after delam. In any case she needs loads of insignia cloth a a lot o' luck.

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He is ariving shortly and we will be picking the main up tomorrow so we will have a good idea of what has gone wrong shortly.

Sorry i cant make too many comments as I have been in trouble many times for comenting on something that i am involved with on these forums.......

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Some news from Malbon on the VG website, at this point only in french,

of which a rough translation:

 

My team was amazed when looking at my mainsail. There is a kind of wax on the film, which ruined the sail. It would seem that this problem has arisen on some VO70s as well as on my boat at random.

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Moody,

 

Here is Malbon's comments from the English Vendee site

 

On his mainsail delamination: “I have never seen anything like it. I have been questioning my decision based on the mainsail, to the point that half way through last week I almost turned to go back on to the course, because I thought I was over-estimating the damage to the mainsail but that is part because I have been looking at it for so long.”

 

“The scrim on one side, apparently I think North Sails have said, had some waxy substance attached to it and I think there is a one in ten chance that a sail will be affected by it, mine has as have some of Puma as have some of the other Volvo 70’s and has Dee.”

 

Wow, a comment from North's ???

 

Wow, how many other 3DL sails are affected.......Guess we don't see the full picture when the North's guys are on the boats......Just a big cover up......

 

The Truth is out there....

 

Brucey

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You wait for the quantum massive to hit !

 

words underground say that they have already looked to buy out any competition, e.g. North sails.

 

if you are interested start researching who is behind Quantum, not the person but the company !

 

also

 

and you know i bang on about this but do you think that delam on the most inexperienced sailors sails is coincidense or incedence ? ?

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Moody,

 

Here is Malbon's comments from the English Vendee site

 

On his mainsail delamination: “I have never seen anything like it. I have been questioning my decision based on the mainsail, to the point that half way through last week I almost turned to go back on to the course, because I thought I was over-estimating the damage to the mainsail but that is part because I have been looking at it for so long.”

 

“The scrim on one side, apparently I think North Sails have said, had some waxy substance attached to it and I think there is a one in ten chance that a sail will be affected by it, mine has as have some of Puma as have some of the other Volvo 70’s and has Dee.”

 

Wow, a comment from North's ???

 

Wow, how many other 3DL sails are affected.......Guess we don't see the full picture when the North's guys are on the boats......Just a big cover up......

 

The Truth is out there....

 

Brucey

 

What they are saying is that you better buy 10 sails at a time intead of 1. :lol:

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if you are interested start researching who is behind Quantum, not the person but the company !

 

Who, Larry (then) or the DeVos's (now)?

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Hehehe

 

You guys are on fire

 

I am sure it will please everyone to know that the times are changing

I recommend looking up www.onesails.com for the next big thing....no glue!!

 

And dont forget the impending public release of 3di ( the next hideously expensive step from the evil empire)

sure to be marketed quite well.

 

Flame away

 

No Glue! Excellent.

 

That is a stroke of marketing genius to replace old fashioned heavy "glues" with a revolutionary "polymer".

 

how is

 

"no glue"?

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...

 

also your comment on 3DL no getting as much pressure as the D4 membranes... vacume is far better than direct pressure anyday. direct pressure just squashes the yarns and doesnot get rid of any of the glue in between the yarns, press as hard as you want but yarns are thicker than the film by a long way, vacuming actually eliminates all the voids in the laminate and allows you to use half the glue. the heat (making the film softer) and vacume combined is unbeatable.

...

I won't comment on the rest of the post, but this is misleading at best.

When laminating, more pressure is better. 3DL is limited to 1atm or less. Normal sail cloth is laminated (with heat) at significantly higher pressure, I think often applied by one or more rollers, which doesn't have to be so hard as to only press on the fibers. I don't think anyone would claim that 3DL is as durable as laminated cloth. Similarly, D4 is also laminated at pressures significantly greater than 1atm, and I believe heat is applied, as well.

 

Volvo teams are typically populated with many people from AC world, where almost all sail designers are affiliated with North, which could explain how many Volvo campaigns use North.

 

Although not well known on this side of the pond, Incidences supplies (among other things) a lot of Mini's & multi's, so they have a pretty good idea of how to build an offshore sail.

 

 

For some reason I thought that Incidences was affiliated with North, but after checking their site it looks like I am wrong. One thing is for sure... they make some beautiful sails. One of the reasons why Gio Soldini cleans up in the Class 40 is his sails, which absolutley perfect. Incidences makes them.

 

Incidences are fully private and are owned by 4 knees-on sailmakers who built a group with 6500 sqm of floor from scratch, earning their entry into the racing machines by their own results on the water.

 

One thing I know, for monitoring it closely, is that they put a lot of work into mastering D4, the hard way, from the early days of Bob Fraser , I think it was 2003 when Bilou had the early D4 sails on board.

 

 

Many of the top Minis, series & protos, have been using Incidences sails for years. They have a long history of sail development with the French mini fleet.

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And you know this because?

 

i sail lots of boats and some of those used to have millenium fabric sails, they have been around for a while, was a type used by UK, now one use it. think doyle fucked around there at sometime too, not sure ? ? ?

 

its good

 

i think we will all be using quantum soon though and it will be a quantum north battle as other lofts fall away from race sails and stay with cruising sails

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And you know this because?

 

i sail lots of boats and some of those used to have millenium fabric sails, they have been around for a while, was a type used by UK, now one use it. think doyle fucked around there at sometime too, not sure ? ? ?

 

its good

 

i think we will all be using quantum soon though and it will be a quantum north battle as other lofts fall away from race sails and stay with cruising sails

 

 

I hope not. I like the sails and service I get from Doyle.

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And you know this because?

 

i sail lots of boats and some of those used to have millenium fabric sails, they have been around for a while, was a type used by UK, now one use it. think doyle fucked around there at sometime too, not sure ? ? ?

 

its good

 

i think we will all be using quantum soon though and it will be a quantum north battle as other lofts fall away from race sails and stay with cruising sails

I'm sure you have heard this before and I trust you will hear it many, many times again in your life..... you don't know what you are talking about.

 

bullshit

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that is absolute crap

 

it is the same shit exactly

 

i actually have samples from millenium with me.

if there is a difference, you are very anally retentive

because you would need a first in chemistry to know

 

who the fuck were Solo and Evo ?

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Too funny. Since I was part of the R&D team that developed the process UK used to make their membrane sails, built the factory and then ran it for five years, I think I might have a little insight into what the material sets were that we used. I also had the pleasure of hosting both Marco and David for a tour of the factory while they were refining the process that is Millennium. So basically I am pretty sure that it is not "the same exactly".

 

Your move mate.

 

explain why they are not exactly the same i am pretty fucking sure i fell asleep after the bit one of your mates at millennium explained about them not being a north rip off ? ? ? heard the same goofball speech about millenium when uk were using it as when one sails got it...?

 

if there is a fucking difference, you cant tell by looking, sailing hoisting dropping flaking or un flaking... they are 99.999% the same fucking thing

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thanks cleared that up a treat. its not the same it just appears to be the same !

 

the crap in the press release says pretty much the same

 

didn't you have something to do...besides make yourself look more stupid?

 

classic stuff JT. it will be even funnier soon.

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The glueless cloth seams interesting. I haven't had any experiance with it so can't comment on it as far as life etc goes. But it does seam like it could be a good light weight race sail. With that being said there is minimal glue being used in string sails such as D4. The yarn is generaly kept dry untill it is to be laid then runs through a glue put quickly as the plotter lays the yarn, to exit the pot is normal something like a spongy bit of rubber/foam it runs through to make sure only minimal glue is left on the yarn and normaly only on the outside of the yarn. How much glue could realy soak into the fibre with the speed these machines run.

 

As far as relaminating something it can be done and has been done many times in different circumstances, from a sail or part of to a peice of paper. It only consist of laminating as it was done in the 1st place, heat and a roller. The item to be re-laminated must still be in good condition, unlike these sails falling apart in the vendee.

 

Some very interesting things have come up in this thread. My favourite quote was from Johny where he was aparently told from north that 10% of 3dl doesn't work, not a good selling point. After that statment I have to say go the D4.

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...

 

also your comment on 3DL no getting as much pressure as the D4 membranes... vacume is far better than direct pressure anyday. direct pressure just squashes the yarns and doesnot get rid of any of the glue in between the yarns, press as hard as you want but yarns are thicker than the film by a long way, vacuming actually eliminates all the voids in the laminate and allows you to use half the glue. the heat (making the film softer) and vacume combined is unbeatable.

...

I won't comment on the rest of the post, but this is misleading at best.

When laminating, more pressure is better. 3DL is limited to 1atm or less. Normal sail cloth is laminated (with heat) at significantly higher pressure, I think often applied by one or more rollers, which doesn't have to be so hard as to only press on the fibers. I don't think anyone would claim that 3DL is as durable as laminated cloth. Similarly, D4 is also laminated at pressures significantly greater than 1atm, and I believe heat is applied, as well.

 

Volvo teams are typically populated with many people from AC world, where almost all sail designers are affiliated with North, which could explain how many Volvo campaigns use North.

 

Although not well known on this side of the pond, Incidences supplies (among other things) a lot of Mini's & multi's, so they have a pretty good idea of how to build an offshore sail.

 

 

For some reason I thought that Incidences was affiliated with North, but after checking their site it looks like I am wrong. One thing is for sure... they make some beautiful sails. One of the reasons why Gio Soldini cleans up in the Class 40 is his sails, which absolutley perfect. Incidences makes them.

 

Incidences are fully private and are owned by 4 knees-on sailmakers who built a group with 6500 sqm of floor from scratch, earning their entry into the racing machines by their own results on the water.

 

One thing I know, for monitoring it closely, is that they put a lot of work into mastering D4, the hard way, from the early days of Bob Fraser , I think it was 2003 when Bilou had the early D4 sails on board.

 

 

Many of the top Minis, series & protos, have been using Incidences sails for years. They have a long history of sail development with the French mini fleet.

 

True, but it actually came the other way round, I would atttribute Incidences rise fromthe 1/2 ton / figaro business to their early involvement with Maxi Ocean Multihulls like Roger & Gallet or Charente Maritime back in the mid 80's .

I would say that they added string-sails technology to their ocean proof sails concept, rather than the other way round; this many years after their first Route du Rhum and Vendee wins.

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Cloth manufacturers will be the first to tell you that there it is a huge process with lots of checks and balances to make a consistent laminated product. Even for these guys who have been in the laminating business far longer than D4 and 3DL, things can go wrong that are out of their hands. The films still come from a film manufacturer, the yarns still come from a yarn manufacturer. There can be subtle changes in both from one batch to another as I am sure there is with adhesives. And there is temperature/pressure differences at each location where the raw materials are produced. It sounds like something might have gone wrong somewhere in the 3DL process with one of these components and it may be limited to the kind of yarns/adhesives/films which was used for producing a few offshore sails.

The other part of the equation is also the conditions that have been experienced. Any laminate degrades quickly when you have a high humidity and heat, particularly where the yarns within the laminates are constantly wet as will occur in the case of a mainsail that remains reefed for long periods of time like in the VOR and VG.

I guess in the end, the skippers of the boats will probably be the only ones who can judge what part was attributable to the process and what part to the execution.

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thanks cleared that up a treat. its not the same it just appears to be the same !

 

the crap in the press release says pretty much the same

 

didn't you have something to do...besides make yourself look more stupid?

 

classic stuff JT. it will be even funnier soon.

 

had a chat with Ex UK sails one sails millenium etc guys today

 

apologise they told me im wrong, it isn't the same.

 

"its basically the same thing"

 

thats why it looks the same, acts the same does the same etc etc etc

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So I went to the One Sails site, and found it really hard to make heads or tails of it. The make all these claims about how unique the process is, but it sure is not very convincing. Maybe a result of translating from italian?

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An even more recent photo of the mainsail from Dee's website.

 

Ouch..... :(:(

 

Looks like the taffeta has come off both sides of the sail. I believe that this section is below the fourth reef in the sail.

 

Another big depression heading her way and Dee is likely to get caught by it. Possibly making things worse for the main.

 

By now, the Artemis main should be in the hands of Norths NZ. I am guessing that it had a similar problem.

 

BooBoo care to make any comments??? :o:o

post-3283-1231989826_thumb.jpg

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Yep, The fucken fucker's fucked.

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Now I very much expect the "Fuck off Newbie" approach here....

 

Millenium and 3DL are in all intents and purposes the same thing if you write it down. Both have continuous yarns with no joins in the yarns. You can see all of the seams in the Millenium sails because that is how the sail is shaped, by shaping the films and sticking the sail together in a more traditional cross-cut manner. Much better control over the sail shape than D4 etc as instead of have a flat sail shaped 3m as you see in D4 etc, panels are about 40" wide so you can control the shape in every part of the sail. 3DL does this over a mould so they have a pretty good control over the desired shape there.

 

The main difference is the actual size that they can produce sails upto. you immediately lose every advantage 3DL every claimed to have once you break about 30m on the luff. If you look at all of the superyachts carrying 3DL sails, they are no longer continuous yarns from corner to corner because the mould isnt big enough, which means they have to make it all in sections. Look at the headsail on BMW's new cat DoGzilla, it has a tack box, clew box and then a head section. Same for the mainsail although more than likely the seams are hidden under the battens or draft stripes. I would also hazard a very good guess that most of the AC mains used last time around were not continuous but more than likely shaped under batten pockets. Millenium and OneSails can produce sails of any size with continuous yarns as they are not limited by a mould. In fact they recently built a double taffeta mainsail for Shamrock (J Class) which is the worlds biggest single piece sail (ableit built in panels but with continuous yarns). They can do bigger and I think they have the contract for new sails for the new Wally 143'. The Shamrock mainsail was HALF the weight of the replacement 3DL sail.

 

I have some good friends in the industry and I hear that North have a big problem with the Taffeta/Scrim 3DL sails. Not only on the Open 60's but also on a recent Open 40 which they had to replace free of charge. I would imagine that we are only hearing about this in the Open 60's because they have little to hide as they are on their own. In the Volvo, announcing such an issue would be to back down an inch and lose the battle. The teams are not giving away half the damage they are incurring for fear of it being taken as a weak point in the boat for other teams to exploit.

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