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E-Scows could ban Velocitek and other GPS instruments

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The E-Scow fleet will be voting on various proposals starting January 9th. Included is a motion to ban GPS based devices "that indicate real-time speed, position and vectoring." The two reasons presented in the minutes were "some thought equipment like the Velocitek SC-1 was considered outside assistance under Rule 41, and others felt the cost ($400) was high during the 5 year experiment moratorium that came with the asymmetrical vote."

 

http://www.e-scow.org/

 

http://www.e-scow.org/NCESA%20Board%20of%2...es%20Posted.pdf

 

If this fleet is considering GPS data outside assistance, what impact does that have on other fleets?

 

Do you in the sailing community feel GPS satellite transmissions are outside assistance? Is there already a ruling on that subject somewhere?

 

Has anyone found any benefit in lake sailing to having VMG calculations or any other calculations without apparent or true wind data available?

 

Finally, is the price truly prohibitive, or even different than an electronic magnetic-based compass like a TacTic?

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The E-Scow fleet will be voting on various proposals starting January 9th. Included is a motion to ban GPS based devices "that indicate real-time speed, position and vectoring." The two reasons presented in the minutes were "some thought equipment like the Velocitek SC-1 was considered outside assistance under Rule 41, and others felt the cost ($400) was high during the 5 year experiment moratorium that came with the asymmetrical vote."

 

http://www.e-scow.org/

 

http://www.e-scow.org/NCESA%20Board%20of%2...es%20Posted.pdf

 

If this fleet is considering GPS data outside assistance, what impact does that have on other fleets?

 

Do you in the sailing community feel GPS satellite transmissions are outside assistance? Is there already a ruling on that subject somewhere?

 

Has anyone found any benefit in lake sailing to having VMG calculations or any other calculations without apparent or true wind data available?

 

Finally, is the price truly prohibitive, or even different than an electronic magnetic-based compass like a TacTic?

J24 fleet has long forbidden electronic positioning instruments (LORAN) and limiting compasses to the functionality that can be achieved with a magnetic compass and a mechanical compass rose. Tactick compasses provide only this.

 

VMG devices require that you have a good bearing to the weather mark and on the kinds of short courses that are typically sailed on lakes It primarily is a tool for training (improving SOG, looking at post race plots). In the J fleet, there are folks in local fleets that will carry a tracking GPS for this kind of review, but not for racing data.

 

Its not a problem. And it does add to the cost of lower end boats. OTOH a waterproof sport GPS can be had for about $200 which is not cost prohibitive.

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Thats is what i love about a J24 fleet 12k in bottom work no problem chump change BUT a 200 buck GPS cost prohibitive. :blink:

 

 

In this area everbody keeps one onboard to deal with the fog if rolls in

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the only instruments you should really need for short course one-design racing are a few telltales, a windex and a compass. and you could probably do without most of those. forget about cost or outside assistance, those are red herrings. how did we ever figure out where we were going before GPS?

 

distance/night racing - use whatever instruments you've got, they actually do provide a lot of information.

 

small one-designs buoy racing - look at the other boats. if they're going faster, speed up. if they're in front, figure out how to get there. if you're ahead, good. A GPS isn't going to tell you that. It will help with offline review after the race, though.

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The E-Scow fleet will be voting on various proposals starting January 9th. Included is a motion to ban GPS based devices "that indicate real-time speed, position and vectoring." The two reasons presented in the minutes were "some thought equipment like the Velocitek SC-1 was considered outside assistance under Rule 41, and others felt the cost ($400) was high during the 5 year experiment moratorium that came with the asymmetrical vote."

 

http://www.e-scow.org/

 

http://www.e-scow.org/NCESA%20Board%20of%2...es%20Posted.pdf

 

If this fleet is considering GPS data outside assistance, what impact does that have on other fleets?

 

Do you in the sailing community feel GPS satellite transmissions are outside assistance? Is there already a ruling on that subject somewhere?

 

Has anyone found any benefit in lake sailing to having VMG calculations or any other calculations without apparent or true wind data available?

 

Finally, is the price truly prohibitive, or even different than an electronic magnetic-based compass like a TacTic?

J24 fleet has long forbidden electronic positioning instruments (LORAN) and limiting compasses to the functionality that can be achieved with a magnetic compass and a mechanical compass rose. Tactick compasses provide only this.

 

VMG devices require that you have a good bearing to the weather mark and on the kinds of short courses that are typically sailed on lakes It primarily is a tool for training (improving SOG, looking at post race plots). In the J fleet, there are folks in local fleets that will carry a tracking GPS for this kind of review, but not for racing data.

 

Its not a problem. And it does add to the cost of lower end boats. OTOH a waterproof sport GPS can be had for about $200 which is not cost prohibitive.

 

 

Flying Scots have a similar rule: "7. Except for compasses and timers, electronic devices which are used as an aid to the boat's performance shall not be operated or used while racing. This includes but is not limited to the following: VHF Radios, CB Radios, Cell Phones, GPS, PC Laptop, compasses htat calulate lits and headers".

 

Kinda silly but the gist is sail the boat like it was sailed back in the day. Could be updated as VHF could be consdiered a safety feature. Comapsses that calcutlate lsifts and headers, toughy nowadays. But oh well.

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C Scows allow Tactick and VHF. I really like the VHF, it really adds to the safety of the event. It is also very nice to know when lunch breaks are happening, etc. I do get a little annoyed at times if the RC reads all the wind headings off on the radio before the race while setting the course. That stuff you should be able to do by the seat of your pants, or getting out ahead of time.

 

I do not use the the Tactick, and love Dirtriggers comment on the "soul of the" racing is hurt by making dinghy sailing an electronic sport.

 

I notice the Tactick has had a strange effect in the C Scow. More people go the same way! I can really tell when the "numbers" are bad on a tack. I do much better when I can feel my way around the course and can "see" the wind shifts in my mind. The Tactick would hurt my sailing, although there is not many of us non users left. I do notice that the majority of the non users are near the front, interesting.

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Two years ago I bought a used E scow without a compass. I thought $500 for a new tacktic micro was absurd. There isn’t much on an E that costs less than $500 but I felt that you should get more than direction and a timer for that much cash. You can get a laptop for under $500 these days. I found Velocitek and purchased a sc1 in the spring of 2007.

 

You can look at our results and see that it was not a competitive advantage over the last 2 seasons. After a few weeks we left it on speed and compass and didn’t mess with any of the other features at all. I feel that we really only use the compass to confirm lifts and headers. The speed is fun, but when we’re going fast its hard to even look at it. Our top speed this year was 18 knots and we were being passed on that leg.

 

The biggest advantage was as a new owner I felt we were faster because we knew our speed. We were not as fast as the top boats but the fleet wasn’t waiting for us to finish either. It is my belief that GPS will benefit the back of the fleet more than the front.

 

At the end of the day I don’t want to have to spend $500 for an inferior product to comply with a rule that didn’t exist before. I don’t see everyone running out to buy a GPS compass tomorrow but I'm confident that all of you would like more than one option when your current compass dies. If we ban GPS we are eliminating these options in the future.

 

Chris Fretz

LE55

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WTF The next step will be full instrument packages on them. Just sail the damn boat. It goes fast when you are in the breeze and if you aren't in the breeze you are slow. The GPS will not do anything for you except tell you that you were SLOW because if you were fast, you will be VERY aware of it.

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this fleet is considering GPS data outside assistance, what impact does that have on other fleets?

 

It clearly is not "outside assistance", otherwise every racing boat that's used radio-based navigational aids in the last half-century should be protested out. "Outside assistance" implies it's available to one boat but not others.

 

However if you look at a selection of class rules for small keelboats, you'd find most have a list of allowable electronics and in most cases GPS isn't on it.

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Me getting an SC-1 during my Melges 24 days had a direct reflection in our performance overall. It is really hard to tell the difference between 6.2 and 6.5 upwind in breeze in a sportboat without some sort of device telling you are off a bit. If you wait to notice the other boats are faster it is too late.

 

If speed wasn't necessary, then why do all the top Melges programs have speed displayed? Pretty sure there aren't that many sailors out here on SA that are better helms than Dave Ullman, and Bill Hardesty flat out told me at worlds (in Santa Cruz) that without a speedo you were screwed. I purchased the SC-1 right after that.

 

Velocitek makes a great product, it takes a bit of getting used to, and in the end on race day we only used speed and heading, but it helped my program out a lot. There are some purist classes out there still, Etchells are one of them. They have never allowed any sort of speed display, but it seems ridiculous to outlaw speed display after people have already started to purchase the instruments.

 

The excuse about saving money is BS. The reason I don't have my melges anymore was I got priced out of the class, and it wasn't the speedo costs, it was the cost to do major regattas on the East Coast and a dead fleet in San Diego.

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WTF The next step will be full instrument packages on them. Just sail the damn boat. It goes fast when you are in the breeze and if you aren't in the breeze you are slow. The GPS will not do anything for you except tell you that you were SLOW because if you were fast, you will be VERY aware of it.

 

At Velocitek, we're painfully aware that sailboat racing would probably be just as much fun if no one used any instruments at all. Getting out on the water and doing drills a few more hours each season would probably help most dinghy and sportboat programs a lot more than strapping on one of our widgets. Nevertheless, if you are going to allow some instruments, I don't think it helps anyone to arbitrarily ban GPS-based instruments just because they are a new innovation.

 

These products are not the beginning of an expensive technological arms race. I strongly believe that the opposite is true; our products represent a better way to get basic performance feedback at a much lower cost and with less hassle than is possible with traditional instruments.

 

Both products come out of the box with only two functions enabled: speed and heading. The SC-1 can be upgraded to show distance to line and VMG by connecting it to a PC while it's never possible to show anything but speed and heading with a SpeedPuck.

 

In their factory default configuration, both the SpeedPuck and the SC-1 do not provide racers with any information that cannot be obtained by a traditional magnetic compass and a paddlewheel speedometer.

 

The most popular magnetic compass for dinghies and sportboats, the Tacktick Micro, retails for $499 and only provides heading information.

 

The least expensive Tacktick system that provides both speed and heading is the Race Master System which retails for $1,799 and requires drilling holes in one's hull as well as the installation of finicky through-hull transducers. The Racemaster has a few extras beyond speed and heading but with the SpeedPuck you get speed and heading for $1,460 less and you don't have to spend any time on installation or calibration; pop in three AA batteries and you're ready to race. GPS Instruments for dinghy and sportboat racing are a clear example of new technology lowering costs, not escalating them.

 

Apart from the significant cost and convenience benefits, GPS-based devices record track logs from every race or training session. This allows races to be replayed on shore using popular software packages like Kattack, GPS Action Replay and Velocitek SpeedPlay. Anyone who has seen a demonstration of these replays can appreciate how they add an exciting new dimension to events and help everyone learn from their mistakes and improve their sailing.

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The post from the person who makes a living providing a certain technology casued me to post again.

 

it is wonderful that folks like him spend their careers serving the world by giving us new and wonderful choices.

 

As sailors we are regularly offered new technologies which can make it easier and often safer to get our boats from point "A" to point "B."

 

As sailors who play racing games with our boats we regularly decide which new technologies fit the game we play and which technologies we refuse to use.

 

My personal passion is small planing dinghies where the game requires hiking. It is unlikely the fleets in which I compete will soon decide to allow either movable ballast to help our bodies or computer chips to help our brains.

 

Could I enjoy racing a Laser with sensors and a small computer programed with a sexy female voice that constantly reminded me to head up / down ease / hike and trim?? Probably.

 

On the other hand, nothing about the game I WANT TO PLAY is enhanced by having much more than equal simple toys with nothing to adjust but a mainsheet and a tiller, and the rest provided only by the senses of whoever is on the boat..

 

As someone who grew up racing windsurfers, I completely respect and understand where you are coming from.

 

My position is just that if you are going to allow instrumentation in a class, no one is served by arbitrarily banning GPS based instruments. I feel this way because GPS based instruments are less expensive than traditional instruments, easier to install, and they provide the option of post-race replays.

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Here's the copy as reported in the NCESA Minutes. Read it carefully. The Velocitek SC-1 does not automatically violate the proposed rule:

 

"A motion was made by Beier to restrict the use of electronics with the following addition to Article VIII of the by-laws. “While racing, no yacht shall carry any equipment which displays or computes mark positions or course thereto, true or relative boat speed, or other GPS or computed parameters. This addition to the By-Laws will be reviewed in three years.” This addition to Article VIII was made for a couple of reasons. Some thought equipment like the Velocitek SC-1 was considered outside assistance under Rule 41, and others felt the cost ($400) was high during the 5 year experiment moratorium that came with the asymmetrical vote. The question was asked if a GPS could record data during a race for post race analysis. Since the data is not being used while racing, this use of a GPS would not violate Rule 41.

Nolden made the second and the motion passed with 7 in favor, 3 opposed, and 2 abstain."

 

The wording may be a bit vague, but it does not prohibit the display of a simple compass heading, and it should not be interpreted that way. The SC-1 gives a compass heading by using GPS signals, plotting a line sailed, and giving a bearing sailed.

 

The Velocitek SC-1 is programmable to give ONLY the compass heading, which is all that some classes allow. In this regard, they give slightly less information than the TackTicks, which also give lift/header data, using the prior compass data stored in the TackTick device. Both the Velocitek SC-1 and the basic TackTick are self contained, without use of an outside power source.

 

I have used my SC-1 in A scows, E scows, I-20 scows, MC scows, an S2 7.9, and an 11-1/2 foot racing hydroplane powered by a 125cc 2 cycle alcohol fueled outboard (!)

 

In the case of the scows, I program it with a PC ahead of time to ONLY show compass heading and timer; all of my readings of the ILYA Rule Books over the last 50 years tell me that is what is permitted, and those data most certainly are permitted; a compass, and a timekeeping device.

 

As for the S2 7.9, we leave it fully enabled for compass, VMG, speed over ground, start line proximity sensor, and start timer. Having said that, the only functions we have used so far are the compass and speedometer; this is short-course racing. Any speedo is very useful for flagging the crew when the speed drops due to Eurasian Water Milfoil infestation on the S2's drop keel, which has a dead vertical leading edge. When speed drops off 2 to 3 tenths, you've got weeds; KURT! RAISE THE BOARD! Sometimes we raise the board 6 times on a single one-mile beat.

 

We used the SC-1 during speed trials with a racing hydro, the same week those kiteboarders were rewriting the history books with the first average runs over 50 knots. Our little hydro posted an average speed of 76.076 MPH on reciprocal runs over a 1 kilometer course. For that, we had 'dumbed down' the device ahead of time with the PC so that it would show ONLY speed.

 

The Velocitek, like a lot of other GPS driven devices, is also a 'data logger'. It records the position of the boat at 1 Hertz, i.e., once per second. Data loggers were used by Brooke Patten on a large number of the 28 boats at the I-20 Nationals, and the group got to watch the race again on Brook's computer screen at the dinner that same night. Brooke wrote a program to download the tracks into, and it is available as a 'beta' version online at no cost:

 

visualSail/I-20 Nationals

 

Some of these data tracks were e-mailed to Brooke for inclusion in the race replays. 3 or 4 of the devices on the boats were Velociteks; the others were wee little data loggers that were carried in the ditty bags on the boats, and downloaded after the race. Cost? The most basic of the data loggers cost about $50. Cost is a non-issue; the street price of a Velocitek SC-1 is about $75 LESS than a barebones TackTick.

 

Velocitek also produces a software program to run the race replays, as do all of the GPS device suppliers that I am aware of. The programs are cheap, something in the area of $50.

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In a sport were it gets silly right from the start with a childs Optimist Pram closing in on 5K when a 2500 dollar one would be fine give me a break

 

I spent the last 30 years watching people outspend each other like the cold war on OD boats trying to buy a better OD

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Here's the copy as reported in the NCESA Minutes. Read it carefully. The Velocitek SC-1 does not automatically violate the proposed rule:

 

"A motion was made by Beier to restrict the use of electronics with the following addition to Article VIII of the by-laws. “While racing, no yacht shall carry any equipment which displays or computes mark positions or course thereto, true or relative boat speed, or other GPS or computed parameters. This addition to the By-Laws will be reviewed in three years.” This addition to Article VIII was made for a couple of reasons. Some thought equipment like the Velocitek SC-1 was considered outside assistance under Rule 41, and others felt the cost ($400) was high during the 5 year experiment moratorium that came with the asymmetrical vote. The question was asked if a GPS could record data during a race for post race analysis. Since the data is not being used while racing, this use of a GPS would not violate Rule 41.

 

The way i read it my SC1 would violate the rules. Course is derived from GPS parimeters. Dont get me wrong we may elect to regulate the info in the future but dont ban the technology.

 

This is about the back of the fleet and the new boat owner. I look forward to the day i can tell the difference between 16.5 and 17 knots by the "seat of my pants". Untill then my SC1 helps us learn the boat. Sure i would like practice more but that really isnt an option when we only have access to the boat 2 days a week.

 

Were potentially banning something that is cheaper while allowing a 2nd chute in the same vote.

 

I like the fact that the e scow has evolved over the years and made the decision to buy because of the asail. Its not logical that a class that voted to spend $3000 per boat to keep up with the times would then vote to ban a cheaper and better technology 12 months later.

 

For the record im listed as a lead user on the velocitek page because i bought on of the 1st units. I dont work for them. I have answered questions and directed other escow owners to read the rules which do not mention instruments. There are 6 or 7 SC1's out east allready. This is not about closing a loophole in the rules. Were creating a rule where there was none before.

 

Fretz

LE55

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As a guy who grew up on E's, I find it kind of surprising. The E's have always been kindof an experimental fleet. My grandfather (who brought the first E's to Ohio) is always telling me stories about E's with Booms on their Jibs etc. This latest enhancement of the carbon sprit and A-sail is further evidence of this. It's just what you have to do to stay relevant, that's why it surprises me that they would just outright outlaw gps instruments.

 

I get that some people will think it's outside assistance, but the thing is, it's no substitute for knowing what you're doing and having "the feel". You're not gonna see some punk kid (me) throw a gps on his boat and go beat Harry Melges. Ain't gonna happen.

 

Last time I checked, and E-scow hull was like $40k. That's a $40k TOY people, you're not driving it to work. If you've got a $40k toy, and $400 is "cost prohibitive", you've got some money management issues.

 

Honestly I could go either way, I just hope they use the right reasons to justify it, Cost is not one of them. I hope that whatever decision is made, they don't outlaw GPS in general. It would be a shame if you couldn't at least use a GPS Data logger (no display) to record the race for later replay. I hope we can at least agree that type of use is not an advantage on the water, and it provides a sweet learning oppurtunity after the race.

 

Willie and I had this exact conversation like 4 months ago after the I-20 nationals, because I have a feeling the I-20 fleet will also be talking about this decision very soon. It will be interesting to see the direction the E's go, because it could very easily effect the I-20 decision.

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The class should vote on whether to admit the devices, or not.

 

If they choose to not permit the instrument, it doesn't mean they are a bunch of idiots - there are many other small boat classes that prohibit instruments.

 

They don't need any justification for this, other than just saying: "it's the way we want to sail".

 

The Ed's attempt to bolster sales of an advertisers product, by ridiculing those who don't want to use it, is..., um..., interesting, but not persuasive. Am I also a person with "no brains" because I don't want to sail with a GPS on my Laser? (And I'm something of GPS geek - i own at least 10 of them)

 

One of the great things about having so many different classes, is that there is probably a home for nearly everyone. If the class chooses not to permit instruments, and you really want to use them..., find another class.

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Scotts, Lightnings, and Thistle fleets

do not allow GPS

 

who needs them any hoo

The San Juan 21 class has no restrictions on electronic devices. I have a GPS that I use mostly to tell me when I am 2 minutes from the leeward mark. That's the time to raise the jib, and at the 1 min. mark, it's time to take in the chute.

Other than that, I use it in Salt water to determine current and drift.

For such an inexpensive device, I don't see the problem. For beginning sailors (like me) it is a help. I have heard from lots of sailors "you can feel when it's right", Well, I can't yet. I am getting there, but I have not developed that skill yet.

In our one design fleet, we try to get the new boats up to speed as fast as possible. If a GPS will help, great.

For those that have years of experience and don't need one, great as well.

 

Stephen Jensen

 

San Juan 21, Fleet 1

Seattle

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I am not sure any class is well served by banning these type of devices with the introduction of the velocitek the price is not a good reason for banning them and if there was a huge performance diffrence then you would see only people using them at the front and as another poster mentioned the top guys dont use them. If you look at the melges 24 fleet where there is no restriction you don't see people going crazy with instruments you still have to sail the boat. why the j24 class dosen't allow something like the sc1 is beyond me maby someone could squeeze another tenth of a knot out of their old sails and save themselfs having to buy new sails for another year that would be a cost savings. and remember if you want sailing to be like the good old days before electronic gizmos dont use them theres no rule that is going to say you have to use them except maby vhf radio for saftey.

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I am not sure any class is well served by banning these type of devices with the introduction of the velocitek the price is not a good reason for banning them and if there was a huge performance diffrence then you would see only people using them at the front and as another poster mentioned the top guys dont use them. If you look at the melges 24 fleet where there is no restriction you don't see people going crazy with instruments you still have to sail the boat. why the j24 class dosen't allow something like the sc1 is beyond me maby someone could squeeze another tenth of a knot out of their old sails and save themselfs having to buy new sails for another year that would be a cost savings. and remember if you want sailing to be like the good old days before electronic gizmos dont use them theres no rule that is going to say you have to use them except maby vhf radio for saftey.

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The question of allowing GPS compasses within the E scow class has to be the biggest hornswaggle ever discussed in the history of the class. Within the past 12 months the class has adapted at great cost and hand wringing the asymmetic spinnaker conversion. It turned the class upside down for six years, pitted people against each other, and almost seperated the class. This change was considerable in cost ($4k-5k). It started out as put the kit on, get the spinnaker and go sailing. It ended up as get the kit, get the sail, add the swept back rig, oh add on the gussets, and while you are at it how about some spreaders. The cost rivaled a defense department project and was in no way similar to what was preached to everyone. Curiously we now have further add on costs of having the opportunity to carry the "golden parachute" extra spinnaker on board which we can use in event of an emergency. Just for the record, at the last vote everyone agreed only one spinnaker was needed on the boat, this was done to further keep the cost down.

 

There is no problem with GPS units in the E scow class, there is a huge problem with the people that lead the class and what they determine benefits those that sail the boat. If the class is indeed trying to save the sailors upgrade costs then why even vote on half of your proposals which are due up for a vote this coming week. You are posed to allow another sized spinnaker on board, which can be used in the event of emergency. What about the 30 to 50 boats which barely could afford to get the conversions and now another $1600 spinnaker is being discussed? The Velocitek is a fraction the cost of the new spinnaker.

It would greatly help those that can't afford the Tac tick and have no compass.What is most evident, is there in lies a problem with discerning what helps sailors and what does not.

 

The discussion of allowing the upgrade of better then original aluminum boards would significantly change the efficency of the foils to operate. Now think of the cost in allowing someone to use 7200 series instead of 6061 aluminum plate. The cost is significantly more expensive as is the performance much better. If they were equal in cost and performance we would have had them by now. Yet, we are supposed to vote on this? What is the additional cost?

 

So is the Velocitek really the problem? No, the problem is in establishing what really benefits the sailors. What exists now is a rogue board that has illustrated it can't even keep the last promise it made to the class after pitching the asymmetric less then 12 months ago. If allowing a GPS compass which is 10% of the cost of the intial conversion to asymmetric, 1% the cost of a new boat, that costly to the average sailor then we have huge problems.

 

What is evident is that the guidelines which are being used to determine what keeps the costs in line and what benefits the sailors has somewhat gone astray.

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I am not sure any class is well served by banning these type of devices with the introduction of the velocitek the price is not a good reason for banning them and if there was a huge performance diffrence then you would see only people using them at the front and as another poster mentioned the top guys dont use them. If you look at the melges 24 fleet where there is no restriction you don't see people going crazy with instruments you still have to sail the boat. why the j24 class dosen't allow something like the sc1 is beyond me maby someone could squeeze another tenth of a knot out of their old sails and save themselfs having to buy new sails for another year that would be a cost savings. and remember if you want sailing to be like the good old days before electronic gizmos dont use them theres no rule that is going to say you have to use them except maby vhf radio for saftey.

 

Fully agree with ZZD,

Use of Velociteks didn't affect M24 sailing very much.

The system works and is smart to use - I like it much more than any devices where you have to carry a battery of to drill holes into the hull.

BTW - there are other GPS-based systems you can work with (RockBox, Garmin, Suunto).

Best regards & Happy New Year

Günter / TKNN

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"Poor E Scows"

 

Cost prohibitive? Wow. Lets just take a minute to look back on the cost prohibitive descisions this fleet has made in the last five years, or even more. Beginning with ruddergate the E Scow fleet decided that changing the shape, angle, and configuration of the rudders was ok. No problem if you own an older boat- you can buy the new ones, and have them factory installed. Just $2000 or so and you are competitive again!

 

Now that everyone agrees that was a good idea lets change the mast. All you have to do is get rid of your running backstays, buy new spreaders and bracket, move your chainplates, change your jib halyard system, and bingo! Off you go to the races. Cost? Depends on how good you are with fiberglass and metal working, but let's just say people would have loved to do that conversion for $400.

 

With our newly configured standing rigging and competitive rudders it is time to apply for a second mortgage on our house to go A Sail. All we need is a retractible bow sprit and a new sail! You wouldn't buy just one new sail for a national championships, would you? So after the $2k for the new spar and another $5k for new sails you are again, good to go. Forget about the payment on the Suburban to tow the boat and crew, the entry fees, or the hotel costs! You have already spent over $10,000 to get your boat ready for racing so what the hell- go ahead and book the Westin!

 

You are looking at a $50,000 dingy by the time you get all the goodies. And $400 is cost prohibitive? Like I said, WOW.

 

Maybe we should question the device itself? What advatage does a GPS enabled device levy anyway? On a lake with no current it can give you a semi-accurate speed average. If you go the same speed long enough it will be dead on but these devices do little to judge acceleration, upticks, and downticks accurately. Same goes with course and "VMG" to the mark or wind functions available on some GPS devices. Let's put it this way- of you are following a GPS around you are looking at history and certainly NOT anticipating the shift!

 

Having used these little devices quite a bit on say, Charleston Harbor- there are some benefits to a savy sailor. With current lines abound the GPS enabled device can tell you when you have crossed a current line where a speedo cannot. But without a very good understanding of how current effects the windward performance of a racing boat all you know now is that there is either more or less current in some particular direction then there was before!

 

Basically you have a $400 device that may or may not help you at all. For that money you could buy a pair of carbon tiller extensions or a new set of the Fredriksen/Ronstan ratchets. But that's about it. Everything attached to an E-scow is expensive, so if someone wants to spend $400 on a toy to distract thier crew then so be it.

 

The question I raise is why in the modern day of electronics do OD classes still outlaw them? For less than $2k you can get a fully functional VMG enabled electronic system for your "dingy" that all runs on a 9v battery and weighs less than a pound including the bird. Combine the Tactic/Micronet system with the "illegal" Garmin handheld everyone carries anyway and you have everything- speed, depth, course, COG, SOG, VMG, app and true wind, layline angles, starting line functions, the works. Now does that give someone an advantage? Again- maybe. But the learning curve for the average sailor would go through the roof. You would begin to understand by watching your instruments in training and in racing why you were good or bad. Were you faster- or were you on the inside of a shift? Did the left side pay or did you overstand the right layline? Did you spend the whole downwind leg sailing too low or were those other guys just mysteriously faster?

 

The fact is that the folks that make up the bottom two thirds of fleets are often not the poor that can't afford the good equiptment, but indeed well funded knowledge thirsty sailors who beg to know how guys like Hutch and Nixon get it done. I do not believe in any way that if Hutch had electronics he would get any further ahead. I do not believe if Nixon had electronics and Hutch did not that it would give Scott the edge he needed to beat him! At the top of any fleet several things are constants- the top five to ten boats will have equal or superior boatspeed, more consistant maneuvers, and well founded tactics-- WITH OT WITHOUT ELECTRONICS.

 

So if we accept that (and if you don't re-read the article to this point until you do) then the advantage of allowing electronics in OD classes goes to the middle packer. He/she is the one who would benefit by seeing a real time readout that explains why they just got smoked. Devices like a Micronet system can only help these guys and girls! And the new features of some GPS systems that allow the track of the boat to be recorded, added to a "fleet" file and replayed is possibly the best learning tool anyone could ever ask for. Now, after racing you can go back to school and LEARN exactly why you finished 48th out of 89 boats. Where did you fall? You thought your start was good and left the boat thinking it was that bad call the trimmer made on the second beat. Whoops! Watching the race you realized boats that tacked and ducked you got a lift on the right early and that was the first ten boats you lost. Dismal layline selection, a poor set, and sailing too low for the first 200 yards of the run cost you the next ten. Failing to pick up the right trend cost you eight more, letting a wall of starboard gybe boats mexican your ass at the leeward mark cost you five more, and so on. By the time your trimmer tried to salvage a pack of boats on the second beat you had already given half the fleet the opportunity- with or without instraments- to pass you while you were patting yourself on the back for a good start. And as you and your crew watch you learn- very, very quickly- that you have to improve your entire game. There is no false sense of security going to bed knowing your 48-9-35 scores from the day leave you in the middle of the fleet again despite your "expected" 9th in the middle race when you actually got to the shift first by being forced right off the line. Now you know, and you learn.

 

So agreeing that $400 is not cost prohibitive, let's consider what is. With the E Scow or Melges 24 as examples you are looking at roughly $5k or so for the new sails you will pony up for year after year. After all, our sailmakers have all told us without new sails you have no chance on keepig pace. And if you can't keep pace you will never get to the front and "learn" what it takes to stay there. Bullshit. True, few are going to blitz a national level event with five year old rags. But if for one year you just bought a jib and put the remainder into a system that would help you identify and correct racing mistakes or misunderstandings don't you think that is worth it?

 

After fighting back to 32nd in our 89 boat fleet you are talking to the third place guy. He says he thinks your boatspeed was fine, you just made some little mistakes here and there and couldn't get clear of the pack. OF COURSE HE SAYS THAT. He wasn't around to see you sailing too high/too low on every run. He was the one who out-accelerated you out of that critical tack when he rounded 5th and you rounded 19th. So you ask him if he thinks the Quantums are faster than the Norths as you contemplate your next $5k plunge into middledom.

 

"They might have a little edge downwind in the medium stuff, but I think the North Jib is faster."

 

Holy shit! That's it! If I use North upwind sails and a Quantum spinnaker I can beat him! Go ahead and write the check. We know you are, so go ahead and write it. As you are writing it the North guy offers you 50% off the spinnaker to buy the whole set and you "save" $1000- now you're cookin'! And next year the Quantum guys finish 2-3-4 and you kick yourself- again. But you still don't know why, and now you are convinced it wasn't the boatspeed, boathandling, or tactics you employed but the logo on the sail that got it done. Wow, you are learning...

 

I am not suggesting that any sailor should follow a bunch of numbers around the course. Or that Laser's should have full electronic equiptment. But when considering if anything that could help those who need it is cost prohibitive ask yourself what you already pay, and what the benefits are of the thing you think you "need." A full data system can and will help you to identify windshifts. They can and will help you identify current anomolies, laylines, rhumblines, and more- if you ask them to. It seems to me the only folks that have anything to fear from this are the top ten guys who might have stiffer competition from folks they didn't expect to give it to them. WAIT A MINUTE! BETTER COMPETITON! But isn't it always those top ten guys who get on your national body boards? Aren't they the ones approving $10,000 worth of changes to your class? But when it comes to something that could actually help level the playing field then the answer becomes "cost prohibitive."

 

Sorry E Scow, your argument sucks. In the end there sould be exactly two classes of OD when it comes to any electronics- those who allow them- all of them- and those who don't. If you want a compass only class then sail a Lightning. But for the Melges 24 to allow everything BUT the bird that makes the whole allowed system work is worse than a monkey fucking a football. Allow it, or don't. Either way is fine, your class should be 100% condition dependant or not. But trying to justify that one piece of gear or another gives too much or not enough advantage is a knee jerk reaction by folks that either don't understand the benefits or are too afraid to find out- so they lable it "cost prohibitive."

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The boats consistently at the front of our fleet use compass, windex, and telltales. The boat that is toughest to beat doesn't even use their speed/log.

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GPS=Outside Assistance=LAME!!!

 

This is just a weak argument being employed by those who wish to keep technology off the boat. I would have more respect for them if they just said: " I don't think we should have electronics on the boat.".

 

But hey, let's play along. If GPS is outside assistance, then so is LORAN, or any means of RDF. Oh, but you know what? The sun and stars aren't on your boat, so I guess Celestial Navigation is outside assistance as well. Come to think of it land marks aren't onboard either, since and receiving light waves from off the boat, isn't really that different from receiving radio waves, let's rule out looking around to see where you are as well. So, I think that leaves us with Inertial Navigation, but the jury is still out on that one.

 

 

Stupid! Stupid! Stupid!

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"Do you in the sailing community feel GPS satellite transmissions are outside assistance?"

 

Right Coast is right on. Last time I checked, and according to the logic of the E-Scow AND J24 fleets, utilizing the earth's magnetic field would also classify as "outside assistance." The simple argument tool of "reductio" or "argumentum ad absurdum" scuttles this whole motion. Additionally, last time I checked, all the cool equipment in the world never made a good skipper.

 

 

The E-Scow fleet will be voting on various proposals starting January 9th. Included is a motion to ban GPS based devices "that indicate real-time speed, position and vectoring." The two reasons presented in the minutes were "some thought equipment like the Velocitek SC-1 was considered outside assistance under Rule 41, and others felt the cost ($400) was high during the 5 year experiment moratorium that came with the asymmetrical vote."

 

http://www.e-scow.org/

 

http://www.e-scow.org/NCESA%20Board%20of%2...es%20Posted.pdf

 

If this fleet is considering GPS data outside assistance, what impact does that have on other fleets?

 

Do you in the sailing community feel GPS satellite transmissions are outside assistance? Is there already a ruling on that subject somewhere?

 

Has anyone found any benefit in lake sailing to having VMG calculations or any other calculations without apparent or true wind data available?

 

Finally, is the price truly prohibitive, or even different than an electronic magnetic-based compass like a TacTic?

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Wow! It appears I touched a nerve. I also had no idea Editor would plop this topic on the front page!

 

What I haven't gotten answered yet is the basic question of outside assistance. I don't have an appeals book. But wasn't there a case involving someone using the weather radio? I think the result was that the signal was declared public and available to all competitors, and the radio cost was not significant. The ruling was that the assistance was provided to all competitors and therefore legal. GPS signals are broadcast to the world and receivers are cheap. Seems to me it fits that criteria.

 

We used the SC-1 last year. It helped very much in our training, finding optimum angles with the new rig in different conditions, and improving our maneuvers by analyzing VMG throughout. But we found at very slow speeds the compass was less effective (like luffing head to weather before the start) than a non-GPS compass. The speed mode was gimmicky, not really helping but fun to try to maximize. The starting line mode should have helped at Nationals with such a long line, but it really hurt. Starts are more competing against the guys next to you, especially in fast-accelerating boats like these. And as far as VMG, mark laylines, or anything else the Velocitek does, I have never in 30 years sailed in any E-Scow race that has had wind consistent enough to even dare use those features. Without apparent wind inputs, what's the point?

 

The only real time racing area where I see this helping is sailing in currents. Put a tactic (heading) and a SC-1 (true movement over ground) side by side and the difference gives you an idea of the current. Post race analysis also was very helpful. But nobody else would share their tracks so it wasn't as much fun as it could have been. If you can throw the thing in a bag and analyze the data later, all the benefits we saw can still be had.

 

In the end, it's not my boat, not my Velocitek, and I'm not even a voting member anymore. So my opinion really dosn't matter - so I'll give it anyway: I don't think a vote either way will even slightly change the class.

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Additionally, last time I checked, all the cool equipment in the world never made a good skipper.

 

Exactly what we found. The more the skipper looked at the toys, the slower we went. Drive the boat.

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The Ufo22 class has decided again not to use GPS equipment. The focus in sportboat sailing is SAILING - not to deal with "wich stuff must i buy to speed up / go faster than the other ones". In strictly OD racing the "feeling in your back", teamworking and especially the brain work and communication on board is more important than using electronic devices to bring achievements continuously. Faster by drilling or faster by powering up the boat with special equipment is not the way i want to sail.

 

: We all use Tacktick Sail/ RaceMaster devices on Ufo22 - see class rule F3. And i hate this stuff: problems with connection, battery charging, cable / plugs, measuring errors during low speed a.s.o. And the price... but there is no alternative. Not really.

: GPS based devices bring other problems, especially inaccuracies in measurements.

: you will not get GPS data of the marks before the race starts

 

BUT - for training purposes and to compare your own feeling for the course / wind direction and the GPS calculation a GPS device is ok. Also to track the course and check it after.

 

Each class has to decide to allow GPS or not. I prefer not to use until there is a device on market: inexpensive, easy to use and to maintain, rugged, precise in all conditions. Then i will probably think about again.

Differences between M24 and Ufo22 are: low cost, easy to use.

Differences between E Scows and M24 / Ufo22: Scow seems to be more a tinker class then OD.

 

Q: if all boats in an OD class have the same equipment - wich one is faster?

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IMHO gps based knotmeter/compass units should be allowed everywhere. I have had more problems with TackTicks. They are unreliable, expensive and IME the cust service sucks.

 

Drilling holes in a 20' sportboat makes little sense.

 

In order to develop any VMG info on most of these gps based units you need to plug in all sorts of prelim data that WILL change over the course of a day. Crews who dwell on VMG data on these units will be slow. Head will be too much in the boat.

 

The guys at Velocitek have designed a solid product at a great price. Now if they'll just support Macs <_<

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When we were delivering a 2 person racing dinghy for just over $ 4K complete with sails

and trailer the first tacktic compasses came out costing $ 400. Or about 10% of the price

of the boat. That was considered costly. But as compared to a $ 40k or more E scow program,

give me a break. And that was only a digital compass, without the header/lift functions. Magnetic

card compasses with a mount were costing close to $ 200 retail.

 

What seems more interesting is the fact that all this "cutting edge" technology is introduced

at around $ 400. Go figure.

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The Compass Heading that a GPS device shows is COG (Course over ground) not magnetic bearing.

The speed is SOG (Speed over ground or speed over the bottom) rather than Speed over the water.

 

Both over these functions differ from what is available from a traditional system.

 

A traditional speedo displays speed over water, not SOG.

A magnetic compass shows Bearing.

 

The COG and SOG are affected by Current. These could be used in conjunction with traditional instruments to construe the effects of the current.

 

Outside Assistance and Cost are irrelevant here. I personally own a tacktick racemaster for my 4KSB Ensign. The issue here is OD classes need to define what calculations are allowable and which are not. The racemaster shows headers and lifts it was arguably allowed into the class in a back door after many had purchased them some members thought that any compasses allowed should only show magnetic bearing.

 

If you need to go head to wind with a 2 knot cross current you will not get the bearing to the wind from a GPS compute COG. These are great devices, but like all pieces they have their uses and limitations.

 

OD Classes have 5 Options.

 

No Instruments

Some instruments Nothing using GPS to calculate.

Some instruments including limited GPS Functions.

Some instruments and full GPS functions and calculations.

No rules every man for himself do as you please.

 

GPS is not outside assistance because the transmissions are freely available to all competitors

Cost here is not an issue if you are allowing tackticks or traditional instruments, especially in relations to the cost of a suit of sails per year.

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I think you need to differentiate between classes a little here. Certainly dont hear too many laser sailors calling for this equipment on their boats, but I cant imagine fools racing m-32s would even consider sailing the boat without instruments. As it pertains to the E-scow which has a long standing arms race I hardly see where prohibiting the GPS is suddenly going to make this an accessible class for the average joe. Hell what do sails cost for that boat and how often do you have to replace them to be competitive?

 

OD dinghy classes no electronics, limit number of new sails, stop changing the f-ing boats to make them more modern. If you want to race a modern boat then freakin buy one! Stop trying to turn a 50 year old design into a new one. Unfortuantely most classes have already let the genie out of the bottle. All this of course is IMHO and we all know what holding tanks are full of.

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A full tacktic instrument set with a masthead would be cheep compared to what's has been allowed in the J24 class in terms of keel,rudder and bottom work (it is only 9000 dollars right now)and while allowing the keel to be built up with filler to effectively more it froward may have inproved the boats performance IT made the whole idea of OD a joke

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The Compass Heading that a GPS device shows is COG (Course over ground) not magnetic bearing.

The speed is SOG (Speed over ground or speed over the bottom) rather than Speed over the water.

 

There are some devices which actually have a magnetic compass AND a GPS (Novasail), so that would provide the Compass heading as well as the COG, though not speed through water. It might even provide a "lateral drift" reading as a difference between the two, not sure.

 

Just thought that might be pertinent since we're discussing some fairly technical capabilities and calculations.

 

 

 

One other thing I think is important is enforceability. Sure, some of the units can be locked to show only heading, but the competition and race comitee can't verify that from their boat. For all they know the thing just contacted the starship enterprise and beemed you directions. Point being, the rule needs to be, you're allowed to have them on the boat, or your not. Not "you're allowed to use them, just not VMG, and you have ot promise" or some other such nonsense.

 

If a guys paddling during the race, I can see him, and he'll get what's coming to him. If a guy's got his GPS set to show VMG, and that's against the rules, no one will ever know. And even if the advantage is arguable, if it's against the rules, that's not cool.

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One other thing I think is important is enforceability. Sure, some of the units can be locked to show only heading, but the competition and race comitee can't verify that from their boat. For all they know the thing just contacted the starship enterprise and beemed you directions. Point being, the rule needs to be, you're allowed to have them on the boat, or your not. Not "you're allowed to use them, just not VMG, and you have ot promise" or some other such nonsense.

 

If a guys paddling during the race, I can see him, and he'll get what's coming to him. If a guy's got his GPS set to show VMG, and that's against the rules, no one will ever know. And even if the advantage is arguable, if it's against the rules, that's not cool.

 

The class issued "disabled" Velociteks at the Viper 640 NAs. Our tech guru re -enabled them after the event so that owners could use them for practise and local fleet racing but vmg, speed and gps were not allowed at the NAs. The tech guru did a pretty good job. We got no info from the Velociteks during the racing. But we got to see the replays of all our races after each days racing , which was pretty damn cool.

 

I use my velocitek for practise etc, but I leave it ashore for any racing. For racing I rely on the nerve endings on the fingers holding the tiller and the hairs on the back of my neck to determine speed and vmg.

 

I agree with 7070....classes can decide what they want. I'll go along with the majority. Its fun either way. Its fun to process speed and direction data. Its fun to sail by feel.

 

I sailed in a Laser fleet back in the UK for a while which disallowed compasses. My sixth sense for shifts and puffs got honed to the highest level.

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Hey guys. You might want to bring up at the meeting that your little brothers in the C scow fleet made the gps based instruments legal 2 years ago at our national meeting at Nationals in Augusta. At the time, many of us were not satisfied with our 500 dollar disposable tackticks w/ the irreplaceable batteries. Then, most of the alternatives to tackticks used gps technology, so we went ahead and made them legal. As far as I have seen they have had no effect whatsoever on the fleet.

 

The guys that are using them don't seem to have any advantage at all. Though some claim that uploading the data after the race helps them in the future, I've looked at some of the uploaded gps tracks at the end of the day, and hell if I could get anything usefull out of them. Though, near misses at marks and capsizes are kind of funny.

 

 

I'm sure I have no idea where the push to ban these devices is coming from. Why would anyone be against a cheaper more effective instrument that competes with with the poorly designed and overly expensive tacktick? Oh Yeah... I forgot.

 

Mr. Velocitek... might I humbly suggest that if you want to continue to sell your product in the scow market that you practice your knob polishing skills rather soon at the little school house in Zenda? :lol: Those guys aren't big fans of competition, but if you can convince them to be a dealer, you'll probably find the ILYA making velociteks mandatory equipment right along with life jackets.

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What about the Kattack system? Is that OK?

 

As long as the information isn;t available during racing, just as an after race critique or viewing...is that cool?

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What about the Kattack system? Is that OK?

 

As long as the information isn;t available during racing, just as an after race critique or viewing...is that cool?

 

Survey says.... yes.

 

The question was asked if a GPS could record data during a race for post race analysis. Since the data is not being used while racing, this use of a GPS would not violate Rule 41.

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How about we make GPS tracking mandatory to qualify for regattas, officially place in a regatta, or be nationally ranked! Everyone has to submit their tracks to a central location where any member can watch replays or even download the data. Seems to me that would do more to advance the fleet than banning GPS devices.

 

I really liked the I20 replays.

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I use my velocitek for practise etc, but I leave it ashore for any racing. For racing I rely on the nerve endings on the fingers holding the tiller and the hairs on the back of my neck to determine speed and vmg.

 

I agree with 7070....classes can decide what they want. I'll go along with the majority. Its fun either way. Its fun to process speed and direction data. Its fun to sail by feel.

 

I sailed in a Laser fleet back in the UK for a while which disallowed compasses. My sixth sense for shifts and puffs got honed to the highest level.

 

Technology is not the question. The question is : what do you expect from technology ?

Forget the question of cost, it's not really serious in this case.

I agree with Viper, on a dinghy, you'd better to work your sensations.

The more the boat is heavy, the more instruments (and then electronics) gets crucial.

 

The only thing that anybody cannot contest is that intruments (and especially GPS) gives objective data compared with subjective sensations. And you definitly needs objectives data to improve your sailing session through a replay.

 

When you use a replay service like TCReplay, you don't check only your strategy, you can also compare the way you drive (speed and heading), the quality of your tacks, the tactical situations at the buoys and so on.

 

So I don't understand why some classes are scared by technology if it is a way to improve sailing practice.

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"some thought equipment like the Velocitek SC-1 was considered outside assistance under Rule 41,

 

It's not outside assistance. Rule 41 d) specifically exempts 'unsolicited information from a disinterested source...'. GPS data is broadcast, not solicited, and if the US Government is not dis-interested I don't know who is. Also, 41 c) exempts 'help in the form of information freely available to all boats'.

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WTF The next step will be full instrument packages on them. Just sail the damn boat. It goes fast when you are in the breeze and if you aren't in the breeze you are slow. The GPS will not do anything for you except tell you that you were SLOW because if you were fast, you will be VERY aware of it.

 

Hey BFD

Been awhile

Still running your no talent mouth

Come out of the shadows with all your skills and wins.

With so much opinion and "knowledge" you must have so much silver you cannot store it all.

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I think fireballhank hit the nail on the head.

 

Instead of investing $3500 in new sails each season we are using the speed function to find that last 5% in the sails we have. We were sailing more by feel at the end of last season but the GPS confirmed when something wasnt right.

 

We all know that nothing beats time in the boat but how many of us are able to get out on a dedicated practice day. Usually its an hour before or after racing. Realtime feedback from a GPS compass is a great training tool but it is not going to make you faster than the fleet. It will only point out when you are slow.

 

$340 to get more out of your existing sails, gear and crew is not cost prohibitive.

 

Unsolicited gps signals are not outside assistance.

 

Fretz

LE55

 

 

 

 

 

 

"Poor E Scows"

 

Cost prohibitive? Wow. Lets just take a minute to look back on the cost prohibitive descisions this fleet has made in the last five years, or even more. Beginning with ruddergate the E Scow fleet decided that changing the shape, angle, and configuration of the rudders was ok. No problem if you own an older boat- you can buy the new ones, and have them factory installed. Just $2000 or so and you are competitive again!

 

Now that everyone agrees that was a good idea lets change the mast. All you have to do is get rid of your running backstays, buy new spreaders and bracket, move your chainplates, change your jib halyard system, and bingo! Off you go to the races. Cost? Depends on how good you are with fiberglass and metal working, but let's just say people would have loved to do that conversion for $400.

 

With our newly configured standing rigging and competitive rudders it is time to apply for a second mortgage on our house to go A Sail. All we need is a retractible bow sprit and a new sail! You wouldn't buy just one new sail for a national championships, would you? So after the $2k for the new spar and another $5k for new sails you are again, good to go. Forget about the payment on the Suburban to tow the boat and crew, the entry fees, or the hotel costs! You have already spent over $10,000 to get your boat ready for racing so what the hell- go ahead and book the Westin!

 

You are looking at a $50,000 dingy by the time you get all the goodies. And $400 is cost prohibitive? Like I said, WOW.

 

Maybe we should question the device itself? What advatage does a GPS enabled device levy anyway? On a lake with no current it can give you a semi-accurate speed average. If you go the same speed long enough it will be dead on but these devices do little to judge acceleration, upticks, and downticks accurately. Same goes with course and "VMG" to the mark or wind functions available on some GPS devices. Let's put it this way- of you are following a GPS around you are looking at history and certainly NOT anticipating the shift!

 

Having used these little devices quite a bit on say, Charleston Harbor- there are some benefits to a savy sailor. With current lines abound the GPS enabled device can tell you when you have crossed a current line where a speedo cannot. But without a very good understanding of how current effects the windward performance of a racing boat all you know now is that there is either more or less current in some particular direction then there was before!

 

Basically you have a $400 device that may or may not help you at all. For that money you could buy a pair of carbon tiller extensions or a new set of the Fredriksen/Ronstan ratchets. But that's about it. Everything attached to an E-scow is expensive, so if someone wants to spend $400 on a toy to distract thier crew then so be it.

 

The question I raise is why in the modern day of electronics do OD classes still outlaw them? For less than $2k you can get a fully functional VMG enabled electronic system for your "dingy" that all runs on a 9v battery and weighs less than a pound including the bird. Combine the Tactic/Micronet system with the "illegal" Garmin handheld everyone carries anyway and you have everything- speed, depth, course, COG, SOG, VMG, app and true wind, layline angles, starting line functions, the works. Now does that give someone an advantage? Again- maybe. But the learning curve for the average sailor would go through the roof. You would begin to understand by watching your instruments in training and in racing why you were good or bad. Were you faster- or were you on the inside of a shift? Did the left side pay or did you overstand the right layline? Did you spend the whole downwind leg sailing too low or were those other guys just mysteriously faster?

 

The fact is that the folks that make up the bottom two thirds of fleets are often not the poor that can't afford the good equiptment, but indeed well funded knowledge thirsty sailors who beg to know how guys like Hutch and Nixon get it done. I do not believe in any way that if Hutch had electronics he would get any further ahead. I do not believe if Nixon had electronics and Hutch did not that it would give Scott the edge he needed to beat him! At the top of any fleet several things are constants- the top five to ten boats will have equal or superior boatspeed, more consistant maneuvers, and well founded tactics-- WITH OT WITHOUT ELECTRONICS.

 

So if we accept that (and if you don't re-read the article to this point until you do) then the advantage of allowing electronics in OD classes goes to the middle packer. He/she is the one who would benefit by seeing a real time readout that explains why they just got smoked. Devices like a Micronet system can only help these guys and girls! And the new features of some GPS systems that allow the track of the boat to be recorded, added to a "fleet" file and replayed is possibly the best learning tool anyone could ever ask for. Now, after racing you can go back to school and LEARN exactly why you finished 48th out of 89 boats. Where did you fall? You thought your start was good and left the boat thinking it was that bad call the trimmer made on the second beat. Whoops! Watching the race you realized boats that tacked and ducked you got a lift on the right early and that was the first ten boats you lost. Dismal layline selection, a poor set, and sailing too low for the first 200 yards of the run cost you the next ten. Failing to pick up the right trend cost you eight more, letting a wall of starboard gybe boats mexican your ass at the leeward mark cost you five more, and so on. By the time your trimmer tried to salvage a pack of boats on the second beat you had already given half the fleet the opportunity- with or without instraments- to pass you while you were patting yourself on the back for a good start. And as you and your crew watch you learn- very, very quickly- that you have to improve your entire game. There is no false sense of security going to bed knowing your 48-9-35 scores from the day leave you in the middle of the fleet again despite your "expected" 9th in the middle race when you actually got to the shift first by being forced right off the line. Now you know, and you learn.

 

So agreeing that $400 is not cost prohibitive, let's consider what is. With the E Scow or Melges 24 as examples you are looking at roughly $5k or so for the new sails you will pony up for year after year. After all, our sailmakers have all told us without new sails you have no chance on keepig pace. And if you can't keep pace you will never get to the front and "learn" what it takes to stay there. Bullshit. True, few are going to blitz a national level event with five year old rags. But if for one year you just bought a jib and put the remainder into a system that would help you identify and correct racing mistakes or misunderstandings don't you think that is worth it?

 

After fighting back to 32nd in our 89 boat fleet you are talking to the third place guy. He says he thinks your boatspeed was fine, you just made some little mistakes here and there and couldn't get clear of the pack. OF COURSE HE SAYS THAT. He wasn't around to see you sailing too high/too low on every run. He was the one who out-accelerated you out of that critical tack when he rounded 5th and you rounded 19th. So you ask him if he thinks the Quantums are faster than the Norths as you contemplate your next $5k plunge into middledom.

 

"They might have a little edge downwind in the medium stuff, but I think the North Jib is faster."

 

Holy shit! That's it! If I use North upwind sails and a Quantum spinnaker I can beat him! Go ahead and write the check. We know you are, so go ahead and write it. As you are writing it the North guy offers you 50% off the spinnaker to buy the whole set and you "save" $1000- now you're cookin'! And next year the Quantum guys finish 2-3-4 and you kick yourself- again. But you still don't know why, and now you are convinced it wasn't the boatspeed, boathandling, or tactics you employed but the logo on the sail that got it done. Wow, you are learning...

 

I am not suggesting that any sailor should follow a bunch of numbers around the course. Or that Laser's should have full electronic equiptment. But when considering if anything that could help those who need it is cost prohibitive ask yourself what you already pay, and what the benefits are of the thing you think you "need." A full data system can and will help you to identify windshifts. They can and will help you identify current anomolies, laylines, rhumblines, and more- if you ask them to. It seems to me the only folks that have anything to fear from this are the top ten guys who might have stiffer competition from folks they didn't expect to give it to them. WAIT A MINUTE! BETTER COMPETITON! But isn't it always those top ten guys who get on your national body boards? Aren't they the ones approving $10,000 worth of changes to your class? But when it comes to something that could actually help level the playing field then the answer becomes "cost prohibitive."

 

Sorry E Scow, your argument sucks. In the end there sould be exactly two classes of OD when it comes to any electronics- those who allow them- all of them- and those who don't. If you want a compass only class then sail a Lightning. But for the Melges 24 to allow everything BUT the bird that makes the whole allowed system work is worse than a monkey fucking a football. Allow it, or don't. Either way is fine, your class should be 100% condition dependant or not. But trying to justify that one piece of gear or another gives too much or not enough advantage is a knee jerk reaction by folks that either don't understand the benefits or are too afraid to find out- so they lable it "cost prohibitive."

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Ya... we're kind of cool for a bunch of mono-syallabic knuckle draggers.

To quote the denizens of Pewaukee: Jibless Bastards.

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They maybe Jibless but at least they can use a Velocitek.

 

Isn't there an A-Scow or C-Scow thread that's missing you right now?

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Not to mention that your talking about a fleet in which a 10 year old boat is no longer localy competitive. And this is on boats that are sailing for maybe 20-30 days out of the year. If you put an e-scow program togeather and practiced like you would in other boats you'd be looking at a new boat every 4 years.

 

Also, there needs to be another manufacturer to keep things competitive because, as much as we like Melges and the cool boats they make, we all know they've gotten lazy in their manufacturing. I've seen mast failures. major delaminations, and just plain shoddy workmanship on boats less than 3 years old. There's no reason these boats shouldn't be nationaly competitive for 10. If it's impossible to build a competitive boat within the class rules that will last, change the rules. If you want to be competitive without buying a new boat get a different boat.

 

I scrapped by boat and sold out because of this A-sail conversion and i'm glad I did. I doubt the boat would have lasted the next regatta.

 

I've reinvested in the Lightning fleet, where multiple competitive builders and more effective class management have kept numbers strong(#2 on the OD rankings list). It is also a fleet where the age of the boat doesn't matter. Boats manufactured in the late 80's are regularly nationaly competitive.

 

As much as I'll miss the excitement and acceleration of the E, I'm not sailing just to tear ass (if I wanted to do that i'd be windsurfing), i'm on the water to compete against people in similar, equaly matched vessels. For less than 7,000 a year, that's not happening in the E.

 

I will say one thing tho...

It sure as hell beats the 24 foot shitbox...

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I'm wondering if the real benefit would be before the race to gather shift information, currents, etc. In Stars they ban the presence of "expensive" electronics on board (though tactics are allowed) so maybe guys are doing this already and turning it off, but I think it's probably not technically legal.

 

If sailing really wants to make itself more affordable, they'd allow $400 GPS units and ban the coach boat!! In any event the GPS would help the guys who can't afford the fleet of zodiacs in support. I say let 'em use 'em.

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I'm wondering if the real benefit would be before the race to gather shift information, currents, etc. In Stars they ban the presence of "expensive" electronics on board (though tactics are allowed) so maybe guys are doing this already and turning it off, but I think it's probably not technically legal.

 

If sailing really wants to make itself more affordable, they'd allow $400 GPS units and ban the coach boat!! In any event the GPS would help the guys who can't afford the fleet of zodiacs in support. I say let 'em use 'em.

 

The Star Class did ban the coach boat (kind of) in the Gold and Silver events i.e. World- and Continental Championships.

 

Cost containment is a worthy goal but hard to achieve because so often they create more expensive alternatives...

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In regards to the "thanks Vegas" line on the front page:

 

Before the flames come - I thought Hanks comments were spot on, well written, entertaining and front page (where?) worthy. I shot the link to the Ed for consideration - The only accolades I am worthy of are my amazing abilities to hit the Ctrl key at the same time as the C key and the do the same with the V key and press the send button in Gmail (yeah the big one on the right...that's the one). Henry deserves the props on this one - If anyone cares

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Before the flames come - I thought Hanks comments were spot on, well written, entertaining and front page (where?) worthy. I shot the link to the Ed for consideration - The only accolades I am worthy of are my amazing abilities to hit the Ctrl key at the same time as the C key and the do the same with the V key and press the send button in Gmail (yeah the big one on the right...that's the one). Henry deserves the props on this one - If anyone cares

 

Nice job Henry!

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There was a time in the E scow class when all the boats were somewhat equal regardless of age. They held together just fine and it wasn't unheard of to have a much older boat win some races or a regatta against much newer boats. You would have to go back to the early to mid 90's for that to happen again. But that will never happen again if ever.

 

The issue is how the boat is being evolved and by who. It seems silly to can the Velocitek and allow an arms race in other areas yet, defend one arguement on a basis of cost in comparison to another arguement which could potentially be much more costly. This is where the problem is.

 

People know what they are getting into when purchasing a 4 year old E scow. They are getting a boat which is potentially somewhat competitive if maintained. In two years that boat is more or less on the slide down through the fleet as it passes hands. Eventually it ends up a great joyrider. That is the E fleet of today. What is hard for people is to accept it for what it is.

Is it right, maybe or maybe not. The E scow is a great boat and could be built to maintain its value and competitiveness I think everyone would agree on that, but class members do not have the ability to direct that. So the E remains what it is, an awesome boat, costly to campaign in regard to being at the top of the fleet but still a value for those looking for extreme performance.

 

What we can control are the issues which allow the average sailors and those of average income to remain viable in the middle of the fleet. For that reason the allowance of the Velocitek makes all the sense in the world. The leadership of the E class almost lost the middle and the back of the fleet on the asymmetric vote, they need to learn to embrace the rest of the class not just the front. Everyone should vote yes for the Velocitek, no for the spinnaker since we agreed last time to only one on board so as we could massage the last vote. Honor your words.

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There was a time in the E scow class when all the boats were somewhat equal regardless of age. They held together just fine and it wasn't unheard of to have a much older boat win some races or a regatta against much newer boats. You would have to go back to the early to mid 90's for that to happen again. But that will never happen again if ever.

 

The issue is how the boat is being evolved and by who. It seems silly to can the Velocitek and allow an arms race in other areas yet, defend one arguement on a basis of cost in comparison to another arguement which could potentially be much more costly. This is where the problem is.

 

People know what they are getting into when purchasing a 4 year old E scow. They are getting a boat which is potentially somewhat competitive if maintained. In two years that boat is more or less on the slide down through the fleet as it passes hands. Eventually it ends up a great joyrider. That is the E fleet of today. What is hard for people is to accept it for what it is.

Is it right, maybe or maybe not. The E scow is a great boat and could be built to maintain its value and competitiveness I think everyone would agree on that, but class members do not have the ability to direct that. So the E remains what it is, an awesome boat, costly to campaign in regard to being at the top of the fleet but still a value for those looking for extreme performance.

 

What we can control are the issues which allow the average sailors and those of average income to remain viable in the middle of the fleet. For that reason the allowance of the Velocitek makes all the sense in the world. The leadership of the E class almost lost the middle and the back of the fleet on the asymmetric vote, they need to learn to embrace the rest of the class not just the front. Everyone should vote yes for the Velocitek, no for the spinnaker since we agreed last time to only one on board so as we could massage the last vote. Honor your words.

 

Getting pretty close to a "Buy an Ad" response

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Nope, I do not own a Velocitek I just believe that the option should be available for all to use it. I have a compass(micro) and hardly use it, but that is another issue.

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Nope, I do not own a Velocitek I just believe that the option should be available for all to use it. I have a compass(micro) and hardly use it, but that is another issue.

 

Let me ask this question... "Do you sell Velociteks"?

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Let me answer your question, No.

 

Let me ask another question -- "Were you a Velocitek dealer?"

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Here is my take.

 

By banning gps etc in the E scow class it helps the lower half of the fleet improve thier sailing skills. Rather than spending useless time staring at instruments and spending time analizing digital data they can spend there time on real sailing ( seat of the pants ) and planning good crew work which is the most important factor. This will yield better results per time spent. Another way is to say more bang for the buck.

 

Of course they could allow it and then the slow boats would get distracted with electronics and the good boats who don't use gps as an aid get even further ahaed

 

The sailors will be better sailors with out instruments.

 

Its not a money issue.

 

The good sailors understand this

 

 

CWS

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In answer to YOUR questions the answer is Yeah -

 

 

 

 

Ok so here's a Question for the E-Scow Anarchy community

 

Velocitek SC-1 cost $499 and is loaded with features

 

Mirco Tactick cost $499 and has a digital compass with that screwy H/L feature and a count down timer

 

Which one do you want on your boat?

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"Poor E Scows"

 

Cost prohibitive? Wow. Lets just take a minute to look back on the cost prohibitive descisions this fleet has made in the last five years, or even more. Beginning with ruddergate the E Scow fleet decided that changing the shape, angle, and configuration of the rudders was ok. No problem if you own an older boat- you can buy the new ones, and have them factory installed. Just $2000 or so and you are competitive again!

 

Now that everyone agrees that was a good idea lets change the mast. All you have to do is get rid of your running backstays, buy new spreaders and bracket, move your chainplates, change your jib halyard system, and bingo! Off you go to the races. Cost? Depends on how good you are with fiberglass and metal working, but let's just say people would have loved to do that conversion for $400.

 

With our newly configured standing rigging and competitive rudders it is time to apply for a second mortgage on our house to go A Sail. All we need is a retractible bow sprit and a new sail! You wouldn't buy just one new sail for a national championships, would you? So after the $2k for the new spar and another $5k for new sails you are again, good to go. Forget about the payment on the Suburban to tow the boat and crew, the entry fees, or the hotel costs! You have already spent over $10,000 to get your boat ready for racing so what the hell- go ahead and book the Westin!

 

You are looking at a $50,000 dingy by the time you get all the goodies. And $400 is cost prohibitive? Like I said, WOW.

 

Maybe we should question the device itself? What advatage does a GPS enabled device levy anyway? On a lake with no current it can give you a semi-accurate speed average. If you go the same speed long enough it will be dead on but these devices do little to judge acceleration, upticks, and downticks accurately. Same goes with course and "VMG" to the mark or wind functions available on some GPS devices. Let's put it this way- of you are following a GPS around you are looking at history and certainly NOT anticipating the shift!

 

Having used these little devices quite a bit on say, Charleston Harbor- there are some benefits to a savy sailor. With current lines abound the GPS enabled device can tell you when you have crossed a current line where a speedo cannot. But without a very good understanding of how current effects the windward performance of a racing boat all you know now is that there is either more or less current in some particular direction then there was before!

 

Basically you have a $400 device that may or may not help you at all. For that money you could buy a pair of carbon tiller extensions or a new set of the Fredriksen/Ronstan ratchets. But that's about it. Everything attached to an E-scow is expensive, so if someone wants to spend $400 on a toy to distract thier crew then so be it.

 

The question I raise is why in the modern day of electronics do OD classes still outlaw them? For less than $2k you can get a fully functional VMG enabled electronic system for your "dingy" that all runs on a 9v battery and weighs less than a pound including the bird. Combine the Tactic/Micronet system with the "illegal" Garmin handheld everyone carries anyway and you have everything- speed, depth, course, COG, SOG, VMG, app and true wind, layline angles, starting line functions, the works. Now does that give someone an advantage? Again- maybe. But the learning curve for the average sailor would go through the roof. You would begin to understand by watching your instruments in training and in racing why you were good or bad. Were you faster- or were you on the inside of a shift? Did the left side pay or did you overstand the right layline? Did you spend the whole downwind leg sailing too low or were those other guys just mysteriously faster?

 

The fact is that the folks that make up the bottom two thirds of fleets are often not the poor that can't afford the good equiptment, but indeed well funded knowledge thirsty sailors who beg to know how guys like Hutch and Nixon get it done. I do not believe in any way that if Hutch had electronics he would get any further ahead. I do not believe if Nixon had electronics and Hutch did not that it would give Scott the edge he needed to beat him! At the top of any fleet several things are constants- the top five to ten boats will have equal or superior boatspeed, more consistant maneuvers, and well founded tactics-- WITH OT WITHOUT ELECTRONICS.

 

So if we accept that (and if you don't re-read the article to this point until you do) then the advantage of allowing electronics in OD classes goes to the middle packer. He/she is the one who would benefit by seeing a real time readout that explains why they just got smoked. Devices like a Micronet system can only help these guys and girls! And the new features of some GPS systems that allow the track of the boat to be recorded, added to a "fleet" file and replayed is possibly the best learning tool anyone could ever ask for. Now, after racing you can go back to school and LEARN exactly why you finished 48th out of 89 boats. Where did you fall? You thought your start was good and left the boat thinking it was that bad call the trimmer made on the second beat. Whoops! Watching the race you realized boats that tacked and ducked you got a lift on the right early and that was the first ten boats you lost. Dismal layline selection, a poor set, and sailing too low for the first 200 yards of the run cost you the next ten. Failing to pick up the right trend cost you eight more, letting a wall of starboard gybe boats mexican your ass at the leeward mark cost you five more, and so on. By the time your trimmer tried to salvage a pack of boats on the second beat you had already given half the fleet the opportunity- with or without instraments- to pass you while you were patting yourself on the back for a good start. And as you and your crew watch you learn- very, very quickly- that you have to improve your entire game. There is no false sense of security going to bed knowing your 48-9-35 scores from the day leave you in the middle of the fleet again despite your "expected" 9th in the middle race when you actually got to the shift first by being forced right off the line. Now you know, and you learn.

 

So agreeing that $400 is not cost prohibitive, let's consider what is. With the E Scow or Melges 24 as examples you are looking at roughly $5k or so for the new sails you will pony up for year after year. After all, our sailmakers have all told us without new sails you have no chance on keepig pace. And if you can't keep pace you will never get to the front and "learn" what it takes to stay there. Bullshit. True, few are going to blitz a national level event with five year old rags. But if for one year you just bought a jib and put the remainder into a system that would help you identify and correct racing mistakes or misunderstandings don't you think that is worth it?

 

After fighting back to 32nd in our 89 boat fleet you are talking to the third place guy. He says he thinks your boatspeed was fine, you just made some little mistakes here and there and couldn't get clear of the pack. OF COURSE HE SAYS THAT. He wasn't around to see you sailing too high/too low on every run. He was the one who out-accelerated you out of that critical tack when he rounded 5th and you rounded 19th. So you ask him if he thinks the Quantums are faster than the Norths as you contemplate your next $5k plunge into middledom.

 

"They might have a little edge downwind in the medium stuff, but I think the North Jib is faster."

 

Holy shit! That's it! If I use North upwind sails and a Quantum spinnaker I can beat him! Go ahead and write the check. We know you are, so go ahead and write it. As you are writing it the North guy offers you 50% off the spinnaker to buy the whole set and you "save" $1000- now you're cookin'! And next year the Quantum guys finish 2-3-4 and you kick yourself- again. But you still don't know why, and now you are convinced it wasn't the boatspeed, boathandling, or tactics you employed but the logo on the sail that got it done. Wow, you are learning...

 

I am not suggesting that any sailor should follow a bunch of numbers around the course. Or that Laser's should have full electronic equiptment. But when considering if anything that could help those who need it is cost prohibitive ask yourself what you already pay, and what the benefits are of the thing you think you "need." A full data system can and will help you to identify windshifts. They can and will help you identify current anomolies, laylines, rhumblines, and more- if you ask them to. It seems to me the only folks that have anything to fear from this are the top ten guys who might have stiffer competition from folks they didn't expect to give it to them. WAIT A MINUTE! BETTER COMPETITON! But isn't it always those top ten guys who get on your national body boards? Aren't they the ones approving $10,000 worth of changes to your class? But when it comes to something that could actually help level the playing field then the answer becomes "cost prohibitive."

 

Sorry E Scow, your argument sucks. In the end there sould be exactly two classes of OD when it comes to any electronics- those who allow them- all of them- and those who don't. If you want a compass only class then sail a Lightning. But for the Melges 24 to allow everything BUT the bird that makes the whole allowed system work is worse than a monkey fucking a football. Allow it, or don't. Either way is fine, your class should be 100% condition dependant or not. But trying to justify that one piece of gear or another gives too much or not enough advantage is a knee jerk reaction by folks that either don't understand the benefits or are too afraid to find out- so they lable it "cost prohibitive."

 

Interesting Stuff....just a clarification, last time I checked you could Use GPS on a Melges 24.

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The best guys and girls really only need a stopwatch. These sailors started out young once they could pass the swim test to join a youth racing or learn to sail program. Hell, how about a watch with a second hand? You know you did.

 

Throw in a compass and they are fully armed.

 

I'd wager that even the 'grand prix' teams win because the guys and girls on the boat, both cat 1 and 3, were already damn fast sailors by the time they were 14. Since that time as a youth sailor, through greater experience and repetition, they have become increasingly adept at converting the highest percentage positive outcome from a given situation or unfolding scenario.

 

It's not because they can ping the line or hold a tablet.

 

Few are the races in an OD fleet where the equipment made the decisive difference. I know I can blow 40 hrs of fairing in one lame tack with my new sails and new perfectly tuned rig.

 

Let them have their $400 toy. Let them eat cake!

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Here is my take.

 

By banning gps etc in the E scow class it helps the lower half of the fleet improve thier sailing skills. Rather than spending useless time staring at instruments and spending time analizing digital data they can spend there time on real sailing ( seat of the pants ) and planning good crew work which is the most important factor. This will yield better results per time spent. Another way is to say more bang for the buck.

 

Of course they could allow it and then the slow boats would get distracted with electronics and the good boats who don't use gps as an aid get even further ahaed

 

The sailors will be better sailors with out instruments.

 

Its not a money issue.

 

The good sailors understand this

 

 

CWS

 

With three to four guys on the boat and the devices on the mast - most skipper's don't even look at them (either) anyway - It is just another audible information feed to the back of the boat...Also if you think sailor's will be better sailors without instruments...Go do an AC campaign with no instruments, no laser range finders, no load cells, or the cooky geek with the daylight display NEMA 12 rated (IP 55 for Euros) tablet PC running Expedition and see how good of a sailor that makes your team -

 

Information is power...

 

the E is evolutionary - written in the by laws - one day GPS's will allowed, one day carbon spars will be OK, on day carbon foils will be ok, one day fully battened high aspect mylar aramid/carbon mains will be OK ...It's all just a matter of when

 

Flame on

 

Edit - I do also agree with Bill Roue that the great sailors start out early and develop their skills without the electronics ---

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Not to mention that your talking about a fleet in which a 10 year old boat is no longer localy competitive. And this is on boats that are sailing for maybe 20-30 days out of the year. If you put an e-scow program togeather and practiced like you would in other boats you'd be looking at a new boat every 4 years.

 

Also, there needs to be another manufacturer to keep things competitive because, as much as we like Melges and the cool boats they make, we all know they've gotten lazy in their manufacturing. I've seen mast failures. major delaminations, and just plain shoddy workmanship on boats less than 3 years old. There's no reason these boats shouldn't be nationaly competitive for 10. If it's impossible to build a competitive boat within the class rules that will last, change the rules. If you want to be competitive without buying a new boat get a different boat.

 

I scrapped by boat and sold out because of this A-sail conversion and i'm glad I did. I doubt the boat would have lasted the next regatta.

 

I've reinvested in the Lightning fleet, where multiple competitive builders and more effective class management have kept numbers strong(#2 on the OD rankings list). It is also a fleet where the age of the boat doesn't matter. Boats manufactured in the late 80's are regularly nationaly competitive.

 

As much as I'll miss the excitement and acceleration of the E, I'm not sailing just to tear ass (if I wanted to do that i'd be windsurfing), i'm on the water to compete against people in similar, equaly matched vessels. For less than 7,000 a year, that's not happening in the E.

 

I will say one thing tho...

It sure as hell beats the 24 foot shitbox...

 

 

Glad that is not the case with the C Scow! My 1999 still wins regatta's and is as competitive as I sail it. I have even seen people take the older boats, stick a new stick on them, and be real competitive. I was only 4 pts out of first going into the last race at the Nationals last year with my almost ten year old boat. Of course I reverted to my usual choke job and ended seventh. Still awesome for me, even won my first race at at Nationals. Old boats are very competitive in the C Fleet. By the way the E is 28 feet!

 

Goneman

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I think a lot of people on this thread are still missing a major point here. Velociteks and rockboxes are devices that compete with the already class legal tacktick. The only differences with them and the tacktick on the water, is they use gps input rather than magnetic, they cost less than a tacktick, and you can actually replace the batteries when they die. Oh, and they do give you a speed reading that you could easily get from a myriad of tiny gps devices... (including watches) that are available all over the place right now.

 

Again, I'll point out the C scow fleet made them legal 2 years ago and it has changed nothing in the fleet. And we're much more averse to change than you E boat guys.

 

The only people I can imagine that would be against allowing these devices would be Tacktick dealers.

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I will say one thing tho...

It sure as hell beats the 24 foot shitbox...

 

 

Glad that is not the case with the C Scow! My 1999 still wins regatta's and is as competitive as I sail it. I have even seen people take the older boats, stick a new stick on them, and be real competitive. I was only 4 pts out of first going into the last race at the Nationals last year with my almost ten year old boat. Of course I reverted to my usual choke job and ended seventh. Still awesome for me, even won my first race at at Nationals. Old boats are very competitive in the C Fleet. By the way the E is 28 feet!

 

Goneman

 

Boy I sure hope Moose wasn't referring to the E as a 24 foot shitbox -

 

Sailing is kind of like driving in that each person determines their own level of involvement -

 

Some drive for pleasure, some race - some race stock Ford Focus's solo - Some race Formula 1 with a multi-million dollar a year campaign, some people ride the bus (these are pit people...LOL ;))

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Hey CC the 99' C boats were excellent that is why you are still sailing it. There are people that believe those were the fastest batch ever built. There have been other batches that were marginal. Luck of the draw.

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Hey CC the 99' C boats were excellent that is why you are still sailing it. There are people that believe those were the fastest batch ever built. There have been other batches that were marginal. Luck of the draw.

 

Hey take it to C Scow Anarchy ya Jibless Bastards :P

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...the 99' C boats were excellent...

There's a 99 foot C boat? Never saw them. Are they class legal? Who trims the main, Ahnold? Maybe Mrs. Malaprop....

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...the 99' C boats were excellent...

There's a 99 foot C boat? Never saw them. Are they class legal? Who trims the main, Ahnold? Maybe Mrs. Malaprop....

 

 

Willie that was amazing ... 4 complete thoughts and at less than 2000 words ... :P Congrats on the New Year's Resolution!

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Hey CC the 99' C boats were excellent that is why you are still sailing it. There are people that believe those were the fastest batch ever built. There have been other batches that were marginal. Luck of the draw.

 

That is what a lot of people say, but having sailed newer stuff as well, I am not so convinced of that. I thought several of the newer boats I have raced were really fast. I did just have to put a new '08 stick on it, and Melges did a great job of fixing my little parking lot adventure at the Nationals, so maybe it is like new, but I am guessing it has sailed a lot more races than any other '99. I love it, but I would love a new boat, if the economy would just pick up a little I would get a new one. Keeping the banking biz going is pretty scary right now. Lot's of layoffs here right now and poor job security is the only thing that keeps me out of a new one. Would love to know who you are! What are your initials maybe I can guess! Always great to hear from Scow sailors!!!

 

Vegas, sorry about the C boat stuff, but we have to have some fun playing somewhere! Loved watching the E's sail with the new Asym at the WMYA championships in the big blow race! Wow, got to see an E scow chase down the high speed Car ferry on lake Muskegon, simply awesome! One of the wildest races I have seen, just pure raw speed, awesome. Someday, maybe I will get to try steering one again.

 

I really do not think the vel. would change the racing that much and it will come sooner or later anyway. I suppose with the extra crew and the extra set of eyes maybe it might have more impact on E's than C's, but I guess I am not really qualified to answer that.

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Hey CC the 99' C boats were excellent that is why you are still sailing it. There are people that believe those were the fastest batch ever built. There have been other batches that were marginal. Luck of the draw.

 

 

Vegas, sorry about the C boat stuff, but we have to have some fun playing somewhere! Loved watching the E's sail with the new Asym at the WMYA championships in the big blow race! Wow, got to see an E scow chase down the high speed Car ferry on lake Muskegon, simply awesome! One of the wildest races I have seen, just pure raw speed, awesome. Someday, maybe I will get to try steering one again.

 

 

 

LOL No Worries - I actually really love C boating..everyone takes a 3rd person along just in case it blows really hard, if it's light the 3rds all stay on shore and get drunk...Hilarious

 

Anytime you want to drive an E-scow just come down to Sarasota and look for Jim Barr, he has 6 e-scows here and loves to lend them out. but he does have a "You Break it (Old Stuff) and You Bought It (New Replacement)" So check your boat out before going out. But Free E-Scow rides in Paradise!

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Hi Willie.

 

Very interesting thread. In the Etchells fleet we just went through a battle centered on hand held VHF's. The Australians felt that they were cost prohibitive. They are now legal and required as a safety device everywhere but in Australia. Of course, those guys sail among sharks big enough to eat the entire boat and think it's fun.

 

I think the most interesting thing is that most of the classes seem to give lip service to limiting the arms race. They scrutinize nickle and dime items mercilessly. Meanwhile they allow modifications or changes to the rules that require massive increases in the budget just to remain competitive. It's a little like our clean water programs on the East Coast. All boats have holding tanks while municipalities pump raw sewage into the watershed every time it rains hard. Developers spend hundreds of thousands to limit erosion of relativly clean soil while farms merrily put metric tons of fertilizer, herbicides, pesticides and raw animal manure into the watershed every time it rains.

 

Things that make you go HMMMM.

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