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      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

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Brass

Rule 20 Problem

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post-16869-1232450104_thumb.jpg

Blue and Yellow are approaching an obstruction, Blue beam reaching, Yellow sailing closer to the wind, because they have different opinions about their proper course in light wind with strong tide.

 

B hails for room to tack.

 

Yellow responds 'You Tack' and protests, saying that Blue broke rule 20.1 by hailing for room to tack when she was not close hauled or above.

 

Should B be disqualified?

 

What are the reasons for your answer?

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post-16869-1232450104_thumb.jpg

Blue and Yellow are approaching an obstruction, Blue beam reaching, Yellow sailing closer to the wind, because they have different opinions about their proper course in light wind with strong tide.

 

B hails for room to tack.

 

Yellow responds 'You Tack' and protests, saying that Blue broke rule 20.1 by hailing for room to tack when she was not close hauled or above.

 

Should B be disqualified?

 

What are the reasons for your answer?

 

Where were the boats in relation to each other before point 1 in the diagram?

Can't get my head round how they could have got into that situation.

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Yellow responds 'You Tack' and protests, saying that Blue broke rule 20.1 by hailing for room to tack when she was not close hauled or above.

 

You mean 19.1 and yellow is correct.

 

19 ROOM TO TACK AT AN OBSTRUCTION

19.1 When approaching an obstruction, a boat sailing close-hauled or

above may hail for room to tack and avoid another boat on the same

tack.

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post-16869-1232450104_thumb.jpg

Blue and Yellow are approaching an obstruction, Blue beam reaching, Yellow sailing closer to the wind, because they have different opinions about their proper course in light wind with strong tide.

 

B hails for room to tack.

 

Yellow responds 'You Tack' and protests, saying that Blue broke rule 20.1 by hailing for room to tack when she was not close hauled or above.

 

Should B be disqualified?

 

What are the reasons for your answer?

 

Where were the boats in relation to each other before point 1 in the diagram?

Can't get my head round how they could have got into that situation.

 

Let's say they were parallel, both beam reaching before Y hardened up.

 

Brass

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19 ROOM TO TACK AT AN OBSTRUCTION

19.1 When approaching an obstruction, a boat sailing close-hauled or

above may hail for room to tack and avoid another boat on the same

tack.

HTFU! Only then can you call for room.

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Yellow responds 'You Tack' and protests, saying that Blue broke rule 20.1 by hailing for room to tack when she was not close hauled or above.

 

You mean 19.1 and yellow is correct.

 

19 ROOM TO TACK AT AN OBSTRUCTION

19.1 When approaching an obstruction, a boat sailing close-hauled or

above may hail for room to tack and avoid another boat on the same

tack.

 

Uuuh, no, I mean rule 20.1 of the RRS 2009-2012.

 

Care to join us in 2009 Dog? :P

 

So you believe that a rule that says 'A boat may do thing A' means that 'A boat must not do anything other than thing A'?

 

Brass

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post-16869-1232450104_thumb.jpg

Blue and Yellow are approaching an obstruction, Blue beam reaching, Yellow sailing closer to the wind, because they have different opinions about their proper course in light wind with strong tide.

 

B hails for room to tack.

 

Yellow responds 'You Tack' and protests, saying that Blue broke rule 20.1 by hailing for room to tack when she was not close hauled or above.

 

Should B be disqualified?

 

What are the reasons for your answer?

 

 

Where were they trying to go?

 

There is no possible course for which proper course is to reach straight into a wall. If Blue's proper course is to tack (the mark is towards the top of the diagram), I think she can make a case that she was going to weather. If Blue's proper course is to gybe (the mark is towards the bottom of the diagram) then Blue is chucked.

 

If it's during the pre-start then Blue's should first luff Yellow to at least close hauled (head to wind if she desires) then call for room to tack. By calling for room too soon Blue can be chucked (imho).

 

If it was blue's

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If it's during the pre-start then Blue's should first luff Yellow to at least close hauled (head to wind if she desires) then call for room to tack. By calling for room too soon Blue can be chucked (imho).

Blue has to come up to close hauled and still not have enough room to clear before she can call for room.

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I too am having a lot of trouble envisaging the situation...

 

Are we talking about pre start or what?

 

Can L clear the obstruction without tacking?

 

Need a fuller story I think...

 

If L can clear the obstruction without tacking and without getting above close hauled then W has a good case: W just has to give room, not tack.

 

If its pre start and L has left pointing up late then W is being at best a sea lawyer and I'd be saying that L was about to come up to close hauled and then would have rights to call W to tack, so all they did was hail a tad early. To disqualify L I'd probably be looking for a breach of 20.3.

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I too am having a lot of trouble envisaging the situation...

 

Are we talking about pre start or what?

 

Can L clear the obstruction without tacking?

 

Need a fuller story I think...

 

If L can clear the obstruction without tacking and without getting above close hauled then W has a good case: W just has to give room, not tack.

 

If its pre start and L has left pointing up late then W is being at best a sea lawyer and I'd be saying that L was about to come up to close hauled and then would have rights to call W to tack, so all they did was hail a tad early. To disqualify L I'd probably be looking for a breach of 20.3.

 

Getting over-complicated here. Proper course is a red herring. Should never have mentioned it. Scenario I had in mind was next mark somewhere well to windward, Blue wants to tuck right in on the bank (represented by the vertical line) and get there as soon as possible, Yellow is happy to sail higher.

 

Didn't intend to suggest any possible breach by Yellow. Interested if anyone can find one.

 

Brass

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So you believe that a rule that says 'A boat may do thing A' means that 'A boat must not do anything other than thing A'?

 

Brass

 

In the case of a hail this is a reasonable interpretation because under rule 20.1 A may not hail if A is not close hauled. And since R20 pretty much obliges yellow to respond blue could easily get tossed here. However blue does not break doesnt break r20.3

20.3 When Not to Hail

A boat shall not hail unless safety requires her to make a substantial

course change to avoid the obstruction. Also, she shall not hail if the

obstruction is a mark that the hailed boat is fetching.

 

In this situation I would argue that yellow was correct to hail 'you tack', and would subsequently be correct to keep clear, however yellow can only be sure of winning the protest if blue actually passes head to wind, and by doing so forces yellow to change course (so hailing protest after 'you tack' and again after blue passes head to wind would seem like a good plan). As which point blue gets tossed for breaking R11 or R13.

 

Blue should properly come up to close hauled, and then hail, giving enough time for yellow to hear the hail and keep clear.

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Scenario I had in mind was next mark somewhere well to windward, Blue wants to tuck right in on the bank (represented by the vertical line) and get there as soon as possible, Yellow is happy to sail higher.

I should have realised it was a made up situation. In the scenario you've outlined yellow would have gone close hauled way before it was time to call for the tack. I can't see any way in practice boats can get into the position you've sketched.

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Does blue hit the obstruction if he doesn't tack?

 

I don't really get it.

 

assuming yellow can see the obstruction, yellow should be able to judge the point at which yellow needs to give way to blue based on the location of the obstruction. If blue lets yellow know with plenty of warning that blue needs room yellow needs to give way.... are we assuming that if yellow does not give way blue hits the obstruction?

 

If yellow decides to bail early, well before the obstruction thats yellows issue, assuming the obstruction is visable, if blue is calling for water and keeps on going, it could be a grey area I suppose or the hailing boat should tack imediately

 

but in your example does yellow even change course from her prefered or proper course? If yellow never changes or alters course what right would they have under a protest?

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19.2 Giving Room at an Obstruction

(a) A right-of-way boat may choose to pass an obstruction on either side.

(B) When boats are overlapped, the outside boat shall give the inside boat room between her and the obstruction, unless she has been unable to do so from the time the overlap began.

© While boats are passing a continuing obstruction, if a boat that was clear astern and required to keep clear becomes overlapped between the other boat and the obstruction and, at the moment the overlap begins, there is not room for her to pass between them, she is not entitled to room under rule 19.2(B).

While the boats remain overlapped, she shall keep clear and rules 10 and 11 do not apply.

 

and

 

20 ROOM TO TACK AT AN OBSTRUCTION

20.1 Hailing and Responding

When approaching an obstruction, a boat sailing close-hauled or above may hail for room to tack and avoid another boat on the same tack. After a boat hails, (a) she shall give the hailed boat time to respond; (B) the hailed boat shall respond either by tacking as soon as possible, or by immediately replying ‘You tack’ and then giving the hailing boat room to tack and avoid her; and © when the hailed boat responds, the hailing boat shall tack as soon as possible.

 

20 doesn't apply, because the boats are not at close hauled or above.

 

19 doesn't really apply because leeward isn't passing the obstruction.

 

IMHO, it's a case of tacking too close.

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19.2 Giving Room at an Obstruction

(a) A right-of-way boat may choose to pass an obstruction on either side.

(B) When boats are overlapped, the outside boat shall give the inside boat room between her and the obstruction, unless she has been unable to do so from the time the overlap began.

© While boats are passing a continuing obstruction, if a boat that was clear astern and required to keep clear becomes overlapped between the other boat and the obstruction and, at the moment the overlap begins, there is not room for her to pass between them, she is not entitled to room under rule 19.2(B).

While the boats remain overlapped, she shall keep clear and rules 10 and 11 do not apply.

 

and

 

20 ROOM TO TACK AT AN OBSTRUCTION

20.1 Hailing and Responding

When approaching an obstruction, a boat sailing close-hauled or above may hail for room to tack and avoid another boat on the same tack. After a boat hails, (a) she shall give the hailed boat time to respond; (B) the hailed boat shall respond either by tacking as soon as possible, or by immediately replying ‘You tack’ and then giving the hailing boat room to tack and avoid her; and © when the hailed boat responds, the hailing boat shall tack as soon as possible.

 

20 doesn't apply, because the boats are not at close hauled or above.

 

19 doesn't really apply because leeward isn't passing the obstruction.

 

IMHO, it's a case of tacking too close.

all due respect Ed, but it does not seem as if anyone has tacked yellow or blue.....

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20 doesn't apply, because the boats are not at close hauled or above.

But in practice for the boats to be close enough together that a hail was needed the leeward one would have to have come up to close hauled yards earlier. Its a situation that would never happen because the boats are on diverging courses.

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[

 

20 doesn't apply, because the boats are not at close hauled or above.

 

19 doesn't really apply because leeward isn't passing the obstruction.

 

IMHO, it's a case of tacking too close.

 

Im not sure that you can totally rule out R20, because R20 includes prescritions on when you are not allowed to hail.

So blue can break rule 20.3 by hailing when not allowed to, even if there are no course changes.

 

In this (artificial) case I'd agree that R13 or R11 will be more applicaple once blue passes head to wind. But on the hail itself you would have to decided if Blue actually broke R20.3.

 

Under the old rules it was generally presumed that (for safety reasons) if blue hailed then yellow had to respond, since yellow has no way of knowing if the hail refers to the very visbile wall, or something that only blue can see, (submerged rocks, fishing tackle etc). And that yellow could then protest if blue was hailing groundlessley. The inclusion of R20.3 seems to limit this somewhat.

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20 doesn't apply, because the boats are not at close hauled or above.

 

19 doesn't really apply because leeward isn't passing the obstruction.

 

IMHO, it's a case of tacking too close.

 

Im not sure that you can totally rule out R20, because R20 includes prescritions on when you are not allowed to hail.

So blue can break rule 20.3 by hailing when not allowed to, even if there are no course changes.

 

In this (artificial) case I'd agree that R13 or R11 will be more applicaple once blue passes head to wind. But on the hail itself you would have to decided if Blue actually broke R20.3.

 

Under the old rules it was generally presumed that (for safety reasons) if blue hailed then yellow had to respond, since yellow has no way of knowing if the hail refers to the very visbile wall, or something that only blue can see, (submerged rocks, fishing tackle etc). And that yellow could then protest if blue was hailing groundlessley. The inclusion of R20.3 seems to limit this somewhat.

the whole thing seems odd -from the beginning the hailing boat is not close hauled as rule 20 requires.

 

20 ROOM TO TACK AT AN OBSTRUCTION

20.1 Hailing and Responding

When approaching an obstruction, a boat sailing close-hauled or above may hail for room to tack and avoid another boat on the same tack. After a boat hails, (a) she shall give the hailed boat time to respond; ( the hailed boat shall respond either by tacking as soon as possible, or by immediately replying ‘You tack’ and then giving the hailing boat room to tack and avoid her; and © when the hailed boat responds, the hailing boat shall tack as soon as possible.

 

since the rule states that a boat sailing close hauled or above may hail for room and then if she does is bound by 20.1-c "hailing boat shall tack", does not jive with the fact that blue is not close hauled or above, so she does not have rights under the rule to hail for room. Therefore would it not be the case that since blue did not have the right to hail and the hail is not valid under 20.1 that blue is than by definition not bound by 20.1-c just as yellow is not bound by 20.1 to tack since blue is not close hauled?

 

yellow it seems in the example does not even need to alter course to allow blue the room needed.

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since the rule states that a boat sailing close hauled or above may hail for room and then if she does is bound by 20.1-c "hailing boat shall tack", does not jive with the fact that blue is not close hauled or above, so she does not have rights under the rule to hail for room. Therefore would it not be the case that since blue did not have the right to hail and the hail is not valid under 20.1 that blue is than by definition not bound by 20.1-c just as yellow is not bound by 20.1 to tack since blue is not close hauled?

 

I would tend to agree that blue can't be protested for not tacking right away (20.1c), though they are somewhat at risk if they don't for making an unsportsmanlike hail (people have definitley lost protest for improper hails under R2.)

 

However I'm not sure about 20.3: The wording of 20.3 doesn't make it subordinate to 20.1 (theres nothing in the wording or numbering to suggest that R20.3 only applies if R20.1 applies), so I can't see any good reason why you can't be protested for hailing "room to tack" any time you do not meet the R20.3 criteria. (though it is not clear in this example that this would apply to blue)

 

As for whether blue can be protested for hailing room to tack when not close hauled, thats a much greyer area, and I suspect that blue could not be protested for breaking R20.1, however I wouldn't want to risk it. Some PC's could interpret this differently, and who needs the hassle of an appeal when you got into such a dumb situation.

No particular reason for yellow not to throw the flag and express their disgust at blues stupidity.... even if the protest gets kicked out later :) (or hopefully sorted out in the bar)

 

I think once blue has hailed (improperly) they are somewhat screwed and at the mercy of yellow and the PC.

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By the look of the drawing Blue is in a position to jibe around and sail behind Yellow.

 

Having said that I agree that this is a very strange position to get into.

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I should have realised it was a made up situation. In the scenario you've outlined yellow would have gone close hauled way before it was time to call for the tack. I can't see any way in practice boats can get into the position you've sketched.

 

I don't think it matters what sort of brain-fade got Blue into that position, but there he is, beam reaching towards a chunk of brown stuff, with Yellow up to windward, he wants out, and he hails 'room to tack'.

 

The question I'm searching for is:

 

Can Blue be disqualified for not meeting the requirements of rule 20.1 in that he was not close hauled or above when he hailed?

 

OR

 

In a rule 20 situation, can Blue only be disqualified if he breaks one of the prohibitions in rule 20.3?

 

Brass

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I don't think it matters what sort of brain-fade got Blue into that position, but there he is, beam reaching towards a chunk of brown stuff, with Yellow up to windward, he wants out, and he hails 'room to tack'.

But that's the point. Yellow can't be there to windward unless yellow has sailed through him or looped down from windward. The boats are on diverging courses. And blue only has to point up, which there is plenty of room to do, and immediately has rights. Its just not a situation that can occur. There are no doubt dozens more situations you can dream up where the rules don't seem to make sense that just won't happen either. How about two boats on a reciprocal course, both genuinely on starboard tack close hauled. Who has right of way?

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I should have realised it was a made up situation. In the scenario you've outlined yellow would have gone close hauled way before it was time to call for the tack. I can't see any way in practice boats can get into the position you've sketched.

 

I don't think it matters what sort of brain-fade got Blue into that position, but there he is, beam reaching towards a chunk of brown stuff, with Yellow up to windward, he wants out, and he hails 'room to tack'.

 

The question I'm searching for is:

 

Can Blue be disqualified for not meeting the requirements of rule 20.1 in that he was not close hauled or above when he hailed?

 

OR

 

In a rule 20 situation, can Blue only be disqualified if he breaks one of the prohibitions in rule 20.3?

 

Brass

the correct response from yellow is "blue you have no rights to force us to tack"

blue correct response "ok I'll take you up"

yellow "alright, you have plenty of room"

 

then if blue still needs room they have the conversation again. A responsable yellow talks to blue after the race and explains why blue now owes yellow a beer.

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ultimately the question, regardless of how they got into that position, is whether blue can access rule 20.1, and in the original description it describes blue as 'beam reaching' in which case they cannot as they are not 'close-hauled or above'.

 

that said, if blue can't hail but they do anyway, imho yellow needs to respond by either tacking or hailing 'you tack' and keeping clear. then they can throw the flag for blue hailing from below close hauled. and subject to yellow demonstrating to the protest committee that blue was below close hauled, blue should get chucked.

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since the rule states that a boat sailing close hauled or above may hail for room and then if she does is bound by 20.1-c "hailing boat shall tack", does not jive with the fact that blue is not close hauled or above, so she does not have rights under the rule to hail for room. Therefore would it not be the case that since blue did not have the right to hail and the hail is not valid under 20.1 that blue is than by definition not bound by 20.1-c just as yellow is not bound by 20.1 to tack since blue is not close hauled?

 

yellow it seems in the example does not even need to alter course to allow blue the room needed.

 

I would tend to agree that blue can't be protested for not tacking right away (20.1c), though they are somewhat at risk if they don't for making an unsportsmanlike hail (people have definitley lost protest for improper hails under R2.)

 

However I'm not sure about 20.3: The wording of 20.3 doesn't make it subordinate to 20.1 (theres nothing in the wording or numbering to suggest that R20.3 only applies if R20.1 applies), so I can't see any good reason why you can't be protested for hailing "room to tack" any time you do not meet the R20.3 criteria. (though it is not clear in this example that this would apply to blue)

 

As for whether blue can be protested for hailing room to tack when not close hauled, thats a much greyer area, and I suspect that blue could not be protested for breaking R20.1, however I wouldn't want to risk it. Some PC's could interpret this differently, and who needs the hassle of an appeal when you got into such a dumb situation.

No particular reason for yellow not to throw the flag and express their disgust at blues stupidity.... even if the protest gets kicked out later :) (or hopefully sorted out in the bar)

 

I think once blue has hailed (improperly) they are somewhat screwed and at the mercy of yellow and the PC.

 

Thanks Dog and Poole (or should that be Dirt and Buoy?).

 

I think Dog's right, by hailing 'You Tack' (when Blue couldn't hit Yellow if he tried) Yellow has discharged all his obligations under rule 20, whether Blue's hail was 'valid' or not (even if it is possible for a hail under rule 20 to be invalid)..

 

I can't see why Yellow couldn't protest Blue for not tacking immedately after Yellow hailed 'You Tack': That is Blue's plain obligation under rule 20.1©, but the facts in the scenario did not say whether or not Blue delayed tacking: it was not meant to be an issue.

 

Don't get too excited about false hails and balks. It's unlikely to nail a silly-billy like Blue in this case. Case 47 only applies to a hail that is made deliberately by a boat that knows the hail is wrong, and where the hailing boat has an experienced helmsman, and the hailed boat is a beginner, and probably scared.

 

I agree that the connection or lack of connection between rule 20.1 and 20.3 is not demonstrated in the rule.

 

The protest in the scenario doesn't allege any breach of rule 20.3. The sole grounds of protest is that Blue was not close hauled or above when she hailed.

 

Rest of Poole's comments above look pretty right.

 

Question for the class then: is it ever possible for a hail for 'room to tack' under rule 20.1 to be 'invalid' so that a hailed boat hearing it is not obliged to respond as described in rule 20.1(B)?

 

 

Brass

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the correct response from yellow is "blue you have no rights to force us to tack"

blue correct response "ok I'll take you up"

yellow "alright, you have plenty of room"

 

then if blue still needs room they have the conversation again. A responsable yellow talks to blue after the race and explains why blue now owes yellow a beer.

 

In this situation where Blue couldn't hit Yellow if he tried, why is it any more correct for Yellow to start a conversation with Blue about Blue's rights than for Yellow to just hail 'You Tack' as required by rule 20.1(B): it will not cost Yellow anything and it completely discharges Yellows obligations.

 

If Yellow did start the agument about Blue's rights as Dog suggests, then, I think Blue's quite proper response would be "Protest - You didn't tack or hail 'You Tack'", and I dare to suggest that Blue would win that protest in the room, even if she herself was also disqualified for improperly hailing when not close hauled or above.

 

Now maybe Yellow could shout "I haven't heard a hail for room to tack, and if I did I would protest you because you have no rights to make that hail until you are close hauled or above". But why would any sane racer start a rules discussion when he should be concentrating on racing his boat? Discussions about rules belong in the bar over beer, not during a race.

 

Brass

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...

 

If Yellow did start the agument about Blue's rights as Dog suggests, then, I think Blue's quite proper response would be "Protest - You didn't tack or hail 'You Tack'", and I dare to suggest that Blue would win that protest in the room, even if she herself was also disqualified for improperly hailing when not close hauled or above.

 

...

 

How would Blue win the protest when she is clearly not close hauled and can not exercise her rights under rule 20.1 until she is close hauled or above? Yellow has no obligation to provide Blue room to tack until she is close hauled or above. Blue's only move is to head up to close hauled to try and avoid the obstruction and then if the obstruction is still an issue, request room. The facts show that blue is not limited in her ability to maneuver by Yellow, at least in the circumstance described.

 

Yellow has no obligation until Blue meets the requirements in Rule 20.1

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My uninformed take:

 

The only language specifically prohibiting a hail is in 20.3 "When not to hail", which does not seem to apply, because Blue does, in fact, need to make a substantial course alteration to avoid hitting the obstruction.

 

So now we look at 20.1, which discusses when a boat may hail. "May" does not prohibit hailing at other times. Consider a case of a boat on starboard, on course to cross 5 boatlengths ahead of a boat on port. S has no rights to make P alter course, but can bellow "Starboard" as loud and as often as he wants, without breaking any rules, no?

 

So, I would think that Yellow's proper response to Blue's hail is to say "You're not close hauled; you have no rights to hail for a tack", but that Yellow cannot protest Blue specifically for hailing.

 

[edit] -- I missed dirtdog's response, which made essentially the same point.

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Could this situation really come up if the boats were vastly different sizes and therefore Blue was substantially deeper draft (and needed a lot more room to tack)? Then the obstruction would truly become an obstruction for blue long before it would for yellow. As long as yellow is sailing a "proper course" and wants to continue towards the obstruction, she can? So, responding "you tack" to Blue would be the correct thing to do and it would be up to Blue to figure out the safe and correct way to do it? Put on the "brakes", gybe, whatever? Or would the obstruction becoming a safety issue for Blue first require Yellow to take action and give room to Blue if she needed it?

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Could this situation really come up if the boats were vastly different sizes and therefore Blue was substantially deeper draft (and needed a lot more room to tack)? Then the obstruction would truly become an obstruction for blue long before it would for yellow. As long as yellow is sailing a "proper course" and wants to continue towards the obstruction, she can? So, responding "you tack" to Blue would be the correct thing to do and it would be up to Blue to figure out the safe and correct way to do it? Put on the "brakes", gybe, whatever? Or would the obstruction becoming a safety issue for Blue first require Yellow to take action and give room to Blue if she needed it?

In this case, assuming the boats met all the proper requirements for a hail to be necessary (close-hauled, Blue encountering obstruction, etc.) then yep if you are Yellow you become burdened and better respond/get outta the way.

 

Tonnage rule, & all...

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My uninformed take:

 

The only language specifically prohibiting a hail is in 20.3 "When not to hail", which does not seem to apply, because Blue does, in fact, need to make a substantial course alteration to avoid hitting the obstruction.

 

So now we look at 20.1, which discusses when a boat may hail. "May" does not prohibit hailing at other times. Consider a case of a boat on starboard, on course to cross 5 boatlengths ahead of a boat on port. S has no rights to make P alter course, but can bellow "Starboard" as loud and as often as he wants, without breaking any rules, no?

 

So, I would think that Yellow's proper response to Blue's hail is to say "You're not close hauled; you have no rights to hail for a tack", but that Yellow cannot protest Blue specifically for hailing.

 

[edit] -- I missed dirtdog's response, which made essentially the same point.

 

I think this is true relative to protests, but I would still argue that yellows proper response it to call 'you tack' before arguing about rights.

R20 is primarly about safety, if blue hails yellow should indicate that they will keep clear even if blue has no rights.

Yellow has no idea what the obstruction is (and assuming that it is the obvious one is potentially dangerous)

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Could this situation really come up if the boats were vastly different sizes and therefore Blue was substantially deeper draft (and needed a lot more room to tack)? Then the obstruction would truly become an obstruction for blue long before it would for yellow. As long as yellow is sailing a "proper course" and wants to continue towards the obstruction, she can? So, responding "you tack" to Blue would be the correct thing to do and it would be up to Blue to figure out the safe and correct way to do it? Put on the "brakes", gybe, whatever? Or would the obstruction becoming a safety issue for Blue first require Yellow to take action and give room to Blue if she needed it?

 

Doesnt matter what proper course is for yellow,

If yellow hails 'you tack', yellow has to give blue room to tack, its up to yellow to give adequate room for blue to make a decent proper tack, not up to blue to make an unusual manoever to get around yellow.

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ultimately the question, regardless of how they got into that position, is whether blue can access rule 20.1, and in the original description it describes blue as 'beam reaching' in which case they cannot as they are not 'close-hauled or above'.

 

that said, if blue can't hail but they do anyway, imho yellow needs to respond by either tacking or hailing 'you tack' and keeping clear. then they can throw the flag for blue hailing from below close hauled. and subject to yellow demonstrating to the protest committee that blue was below close hauled, blue should get chucked.

According to the Dick Rose presentation of last Friday night, this is exactly the scenario. According to Rose, they specifically crafted this so that IF ANY boat hails for "room to tack" the other boat MUST respond either with "YOU TACK" or by immediately tacking. This is to insure safety

 

But if the leeward boat lacked rights for the call, then the RoW boat can - and should throw the flag.

 

The drawn scenario is NOT the one envisioned by the rules committee. The example Rose gave was when NOT close hauled.

 

Consider 2 boats on a close reach for an obstruction (An island that can be passed either way) W is sailing a slightly higher course in anticipation of a current set, L is sailing right at the mark.

 

L is clear ahead of W so overlap is not an issue, but L cannot tack to Port and Clear W.

 

 

Under the old rules, since W is fetching, they have no obligation to let L tack (safety issue).

 

Under the new rules, W is required to let L tack, but now can protest L.

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My uninformed take:

 

The only language specifically prohibiting a hail is in 20.3 "When not to hail", which does not seem to apply, because Blue does, in fact, need to make a substantial course alteration to avoid hitting the obstruction.

 

So now we look at 20.1, which discusses when a boat may hail. "May" does not prohibit hailing at other times. Consider a case of a boat on starboard, on course to cross 5 boatlengths ahead of a boat on port. S has no rights to make P alter course, but can bellow "Starboard" as loud and as often as he wants, without breaking any rules, no?

 

So, I would think that Yellow's proper response to Blue's hail is to say "You're not close hauled; you have no rights to hail for a tack", but that Yellow cannot protest Blue specifically for hailing.

 

[edit] -- I missed dirtdog's response, which made essentially the same point.

 

I think this is true relative to protests, but I would still argue that yellows proper response it to call 'you tack' before arguing about rights.

R20 is primarly about safety, if blue hails yellow should indicate that they will keep clear even if blue has no rights.

Yellow has no idea what the obstruction is (and assuming that it is the obvious one is potentially dangerous)

 

I think that's a point well made.

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ultimately the question, regardless of how they got into that position, is whether blue can access rule 20.1, and in the original description it describes blue as 'beam reaching' in which case they cannot as they are not 'close-hauled or above'.

 

that said, if blue can't hail but they do anyway, imho yellow needs to respond by either tacking or hailing 'you tack' and keeping clear. then they can throw the flag for blue hailing from below close hauled. and subject to yellow demonstrating to the protest committee that blue was below close hauled, blue should get chucked.

According to the Dick Rose presentation of last Friday night, this is exactly the scenario. According to Rose, they specifically crafted this so that IF ANY boat hails for "room to tack" the other boat MUST respond either with "YOU TACK" or by immediately tacking. This is to insure safety

 

But if the leeward boat lacked rights for the call, then the RoW boat can - and should throw the flag.

 

The drawn scenario is NOT the one envisioned by the rules committee. The example Rose gave was when NOT close hauled.

 

Consider 2 boats on a close reach for an obstruction (An island that can be passed either way) W is sailing a slightly higher course in anticipation of a current set, L is sailing right at the mark.

 

L is clear ahead of W so overlap is not an issue, but L cannot tack to Port and Clear W.

 

 

Under the old rules, since W is fetching, they have no obligation to let L tack (safety issue).

 

Under the new rules, W is required to let L tack, but now can protest L.

two boats in communication would be able to mutually determine the obstruction and the time frame for a response.

 

for example Blue says one of the following;

"hey yellow we will need room at this island up here, we will need you to tack before we run out of water"

or

"Holy Shit a submarine, yellow tack now we have an obstruction"

 

are two different situations that require very different responses. assume yellow reacts identically to both, yellow immediately gives room either by tacking heading up immediately to allow immediate room to Blue. either blue narrowly misses a surfacing submarine or Blue says "what the fuck was that response all about I was just giving him a heads up that we need to tack in 10 boat lengths.

 

this interpretation leaves thing ambiguous which is dangerous. It seems to me the only way that this works is by the definition of the rule which is "close hauled or above". blue needs to be in the correct circumstance to hail or the hail has no avail.

 

If the hail has no avail there is no hail. kinda like "if the glove don't fit....."

 

The support needs to be in the rule, if we assume that an immediate response is required from any boat with rights or with out, it just seems more dangerous. both the hailing boat and the boat being hailed need to work within the rules.

 

If a real immediate danger exists regardless of rules or rights blue will be able to communicate that to yellow and yellow should respond. the situation dictates the safety response, the rules are there to dictate who has rights to do what. and in the situation described blue needs to be close hauled in order to have rights over yellow.

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Just a question about the original posting...

 

It comes across that it was your "opinion" that he was reaching, but his opinion that he was already close hauled?!?!

 

Umpires and judges have to decide whether a boat was close hauled or not all the time. It's much less subjective than proper course, and they have to decide that too.

 

But I agree that if it came to a Woz/Woz Not situation in the protest room B might get the benefit of the doubt (if it mattered, which is what we are trying to discover).

 

Brass

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ultimately the question, regardless of how they got into that position, is whether blue can access rule 20.1, and in the original description it describes blue as 'beam reaching' in which case they cannot as they are not 'close-hauled or above'.

 

that said, if blue can't hail but they do anyway, imho yellow needs to respond by either tacking or hailing 'you tack' and keeping clear. then they can throw the flag for blue hailing from below close hauled. and subject to yellow demonstrating to the protest committee that blue was below close hauled, blue should get chucked.

According to the Dick Rose presentation of last Friday night, this is exactly the scenario. According to Rose, they specifically crafted this so that IF ANY boat hails for "room to tack" the other boat MUST respond either with "YOU TACK" or by immediately tacking. This is to insure safety

 

But if the leeward boat lacked rights for the call, then the RoW boat can - and should throw the flag.

 

Thanks Baltic for reference to up to date authority

 

The drawn scenario is NOT the one envisioned by the rules committee. The example Rose gave was when NOT close hauled.

 

Sorry I don't get you: in your first para you say 'this is exactly the scenario'

and now you say it is not: Could you elaborate on what Dick Rose said about a boat not close hauled.

 

Did he give the slightest hint that this would be grounds for the hailed boat to ignore the hail?

 

Did he say that hailing when not close hauled broke the rule and a boat doing so could be penalised?

 

Words from the horse's mouth would be good here.

 

Consider 2 boats on a close reach for an obstruction (An island that can be passed either way) W is sailing a slightly higher course in anticipation of a current set, L is sailing right at the mark.

 

L is clear ahead of W so overlap is not an issue, but L cannot tack to Port and Clear W.

 

Under the old rules, since W is fetching, they have no obligation to let L tack (safety issue).

 

But only if the obstruction is also a mark.

 

I don't think it was as black and white as that.

 

None of the usual commentaries (Elvstrom, Twiname, Willis, Perry) since the 2004 rules has suggested that non-compliance with conditions permits a hailed boat to not respond.

 

Dave Perry's 2005-2008 book says flat out

 

'when L or A adequately hails, W or B has only two choices for a response: either tack as son as possible or immediately reply "you tack". W or B does not have the option of disputing L or A's judgement about her need to hail. When W or B feels L or A's hail is not proper (e.g. she is not really near an obstruction …) she nevertheless must respond. She can then protest under rule 19.1…'

 

Under the new rules, W is required to let L tack, but now can protest L.

 

Yup.

 

Thanks for the contribution.

 

Brass

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My uninformed take:

 

The only language specifically prohibiting a hail is in 20.3 "When not to hail", which does not seem to apply, because Blue does, in fact, need to make a substantial course alteration to avoid hitting the obstruction.

 

So now we look at 20.1, which discusses when a boat may hail. "May" does not prohibit hailing at other times. Consider a case of a boat on starboard, on course to cross 5 boatlengths ahead of a boat on port. S has no rights to make P alter course, but can bellow "Starboard" as loud and as often as he wants, without breaking any rules, no?

 

So, I would think that Yellow's proper response to Blue's hail is to say "You're not close hauled; you have no rights to hail for a tack", but that Yellow cannot protest Blue specifically for hailing.

 

[edit] -- I missed dirtdog's response, which made essentially the same point.

 

I think this is true relative to protests, but I would still argue that yellows proper response it to call 'you tack' before arguing about rights.

R20 is primarly about safety, if blue hails yellow should indicate that they will keep clear even if blue has no rights.

Yellow has no idea what the obstruction is (and assuming that it is the obvious one is potentially dangerous)

 

I think that's a point well made.

 

Thanks everyone for this discussion. I think the above just about gets it, at least as far as the obligation of Y.

 

Just for completeness here are a couple of references:

 

Rule 20 Room to Tack at an Obstruction

Rule C8.3 Penalties Initiated by Umpires

Question

Approaching an obstruction, Yellow and Blue are sailing upwind on the same

tack. Blue hails and signals Yellow for room to tack. Yellow believes that Blue

is sailing below a close-hauled course and she ignores the hail. Both boats

protest. What should the call be?

Answer

When the hailing boat is sailing upwind, the hailed boat must always respond to

the hail in accordance with rule 20.1(B). Penalize Yellow. In addition, if Blue

hailed for room to tack when it was clear that the requirements in rule 20.1 and

20.3 were not met, then Blue broke rule 20. Penalize Blue.

 

when L or A adequately hails, W or B has only two choices for a response: either tack as son as possible or immediately reply "you tack". W or B does not have the option of disputing L or A's judgment about her need to hail. When W or B feels L or A's hail is not proper (e.g. she is not really near an obstruction …) she nevertheless must respond. She can then protest under rule 20.3 claiming L or A hailed when she was not permitted to do so.

 

These two references express different opinions about whether a hailing boat can be penalised for breach of rule 20.1, which was my original question. Perry says a boat can only be penalised under rule 20.3, the MR call says a boat can be penalised under either. MR UMP calls are supposed to be applicable for Match Racing only.

 

Any final opinions about whether, in fleet racing, a boat, hailing from below close hauled, but otherwise OK can or should be penalised for hailing?

 

Brass

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