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jwlbrace

Devotti Singlehander- D-One

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Much as some will deny it, a lot of the grousing in this thread (and the RS100) one is I think due to people seeing these boats, which are being designed and marketed in the first instance to Europe (focused on the UK in the case of the RS), in the context of the American market (that "Saving Racing" book seems to be very US focused- not that that's a bad thing). At this early stage, the successful D-One regatta in Italy and the sell-out of the RS100 pre-order show signs of demand for both designs over here.

 

anyway, maybe that's part of the problem in the US, being mired in old, slow, under developed designs?

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I can understand why you might believe his view is off the mark, but there is a kernel of truth in what he suggests, you should admit.

 

What? That there should be a restriction on 'new' classes?

 

As someone who has spend the last 8 years competetively sailing almost exclusively 'new' boats (RS 200, RS Vareo, RS 400, RS 800) you're not talking to the right person! So am I (as I sail new classes) part of the problem? I did own a B14 (an 'older' class), fantastic boat as it is, it just doesn't work if I want to sail with my girlfriend... Should I go sail an Enterprise or a National 12 for the good of the sport? I'd be bored to death by the bottom of the first leeward mark... ;-)

 

The arguement doesn't make sense...

 

If Poida wants to increase his local fleet racing, he needs to persuade people why they should be buying his local class, not by attacking other classes in an overly agressive way, as a result of looking at the world through his small view...

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Is the opposition to the D-One and RS100 (and other new boats) very much the same thing as the howls of protest whenever someone suggests that kids should/could be sailing something other than Optimists?

 

(Sorry luca for taking part in the derailing!)

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Is the opposition to the D-One and RS100 (and other new boats) very much the same thing as the howls of protest whenever someone suggests that kids should/could be sailing something other than Optimists?

 

(Sorry luca for taking part in the derailing!)

 

 

I think the opposition to new classes posted today on the forum is because of the article about that book on the front page of SA - we need a separate thread to discuss that book

 

and for example to point out that it is not relevant outside the US

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I can understand why you might believe his view is off the mark, but there is a kernel of truth in what he suggests, you should admit.

 

What? That there should be a restriction on 'new' classes?

 

As someone who has spend the last 8 years competetively sailing almost exclusively 'new' boats (RS 200, RS Vareo, RS 400, RS 800) you're not talking to the right person! So am I (as I sail new classes) part of the problem? I did own a B14 (an 'older' class), fantastic boat as it is, it just doesn't work if I want to sail with my girlfriend... Should I go sail an Enterprise or a National 12 for the good of the sport? I'd be bored to death by the bottom of the first leeward mark... ;-)

 

The arguement doesn't make sense...

 

If Poida wants to increase his local fleet racing, he needs to persuade people why they should be buying his local class, not by attacking other classes in an overly agressive way, as a result of looking at the world through his small view...

 

No! That there is a kernel of truth in the idea that dilution is pollution. I have been quietly sailing and racing for 50 years, and that is how I see it. (Sorry for indignant and inappropriate appeal to authority.)

 

I understand the need to change and experiment, but just look at that one firm. Six different classes.

 

Think they will survive (classes and firm) in the UK or anywhere? No way. It is in the numbers.

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Is the opposition to the D-One and RS100 (and other new boats) very much the same thing as the howls of protest whenever someone suggests that kids should/could be sailing something other than Optimists?

 

(Sorry luca for taking part in the derailing!)

 

 

I think the opposition to new classes posted today on the forum is because of the article about that book on the front page of SA - we need a separate thread to discuss that book

 

and for example to point out that it is not relevant outside the US

 

 

Separate thread yes. The rest -1 !

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:angry: It's about time the ISAF did something about stamping out rogue new classes like the D-shitter. As all they do is dilute, devalue and destroy existing fleets. Who cares about how good/bad the boat is......irrelevant!!!!! The sailing community needs to capture and retain as many new sailors as possible if the sport is every going to grow (which it isn't - it's shrinking!!!!!). We need fewer classes, with bigger fleets to promote competitive and exciting sailing.... not to mention bigger pissups.

 

Except that the evidence shows the opposite. The country with the highest number of new classes is the UK, which is also the country were sailing is holding up well - total number of boats at national champioships grew 2000-2007 (but has fallen back in 08 and this year), and in keelboats, entries at thing like Cowes week have also grown.

 

Also, not everybody likes sailing in big fleets - always fighting for a lane, never in clear air, huge great raft ups at mark roundings etc.

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[rant]

I think the thought that the ISAF should put a curb on new class is totally absurd. With the current feeling that the US government has its hands in too much of what goes on in the world and now you want to add another governing body with even more power to dictate what new boats get developed and who shall build them?

 

The ISAF may choose to sanction any regatta or ratify any class they want but if they choose to limit new boats, they'll soon find the rest of the world has moved on and they'll lose stature and viability.

 

If we'd taken that stance back in the 50's, some of the most popular boats in the world would not be here today. If you want to say in the older classes with their current fleet sizes, then by all means do so. Just don't dictate to the rest of the sport what boats people should or should not be building and promoting.

 

In the UK and OZ, where most of the new designs are coming from, sailing is much more popular than in the US so I can't see that variety hurts the sport. Sure I might not buy a Laser because I have a different boat so it might drop the number of Lasers in my area by one or it might just be the case that I wouldn't be wanting to sail if all I had to choose from was a Laser, or a Laser, or a Laser. Traditional classes may suffer or they might think of evolving.

 

From my perspective, the things that are killing sailing in the US is peoples willingness if not desire to have someone else entertain them, the economy, restricted access, poor marketing or exposure of the sport, and ass hats that think they know all there is to know and like to dictate to others what they should do. I've seen too many clubs destroyed or almost destroyed when someone takes over and tries to professionalize club racing and starts making rules on what types of boats may or may not participate. Restriction is not the answer.

[/rant]

Sorry but I really do feel strongly on this one. More and new boats are good. If variety is such a bad thing, then why are the US roads clogged with so many different types of cars? Should we all only be driving the Edsel?

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new classes are the lifeblood of the sport- if someone tells me I have to sail a Laser, or stop sailing at my club or any other clubs; then I'm afraid I'll be on my bike, snowboard or windsurfer instead....

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No! That there is a kernel of truth in the idea that dilution is pollution. I have been quietly sailing and racing for 50 years, and that is how I see it. (Sorry for indignant and inappropriate appeal to authority.)

 

I understand the need to change and experiment, but just look at that one firm. Six different classes.

 

Think they will survive (classes and firm) in the UK or anywhere? No way. It is in the numbers.

 

You just don't understand what RS have created, but I'm not going to hijack the thread any longer to explain because (I guess) you're not UK based and it's not relevant to you...

 

The simple fact is that your (and Poida's) view of the dinghy world is protectionist, conservative and short termist. If your preference for a restriction on new classes came to pass, it would do nothing but harm in the long term.

 

'New' boats are expensive (no second hand market), so only people who know what they are doing will generally buy a new boat. They aren't interested in sailing the boats that are already available. Do you think by forcing them to sail boats they don't really want to sail will encourage them to stay in the sport???

 

First time buyers will generally buy a cheaper second hand boat. They won't be interested in shelling out several grand on a new boat.

 

Either way, it's not the 'new' boat that's the problem!

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Imagine all the relevant designs we (and others) would have missed out on if they had to be "approved" (which means accepted)... How many designs are the results of someone filling a perceived gap in the offerings? To make the sport grow we need people to enjoy their experiences with sailing (especially early on). To that end, we cannot limit what they can sail - the match might not be there.

 

I'm excited that the D-One is alive and not just an "idea" that never saw a course or dinghy launch.

 

CJC

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Living - wrote "... Either way, it's not the 'new' boat that's the problem!"

 

 

But not too many new boats?

 

Every one here has a good point.

 

Okay, I will shut up. My bad!

 

Ease your sheets!

 

I was not aware this was a UK thread.

 

I thought P had a point, is all.

 

I will go to the bilge!

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Living - wrote "... Either way, it's not the 'new' boat that's the problem!"

 

 

But not too many new boats?

 

Every one here has a good point.

 

Okay, I will shut up. My bad!

 

Ease your sheets!

 

I was not aware this was a UK thread.

 

I thought P had a point, is all.

 

I will go to the bilge!

It's all good but you take an odd stance considering your avatar.

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Yes, that was mentioned in an exchange over dreadnought bows, which I was curious about and asked some probing ?s, but not meant to stifle. In fact, I took the advice and ran with it and now am a firm believer in the science.

 

I do not and did not mean to come off as some sort of retro-tard or ludite.

 

If I could have my dream, I would be flying As, sitting on a Star boat and lounging on a big old tub on consequtive weeks, while plotting a better version of one of the newer single-handlers noted here and the RS thread. All nifty...and many.

 

I am all for experimentation etc. I did and do a lot of it myself. For example, I tried to pull the 110 class up a bit and was pooh-poohed years ago, only to have the class accept the same Genoa sheeting and a wire much later, and the class prospered for it.

 

C'est le vie!

 

The Laser is a different story, being sort of the VW of dinghies and their rules are what they are. Still, I really do not like Laser rigidty and it is typical progression to look toward these hotter classes. That very simplicty had me moving away after a time. (I have a tinker gene.)

 

I only suggested that P touched an issue that hovers over all of these comments.

 

There is a point of diminishing returns in class explosions, design and memberships that will be weeded out in time and by the market, while some more traditional and slow to do anything classes must be prodded to make changes and benefit for the effort.

 

Then there is the intersection of skill versus speed, design versus racing and age versus apparatus options...similar discussions from decades ago, that P certainly touched upon and I thought his view was worth a comment.

 

None of this can be tossed overboard so easily.

 

I am off to the bilge or damnable autumn yardwork.

 

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Looks like a lot of fun. Once the get more time in the boat they should be able to really send it. Props to the organizers for what looked like a successful roll out. The first events are always the most interesting. You're not quite sure what you'll end up with but in the end, I think everyone has a great time and that is what counts.

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Yep! Formula 1 all the way. No beer floats on these rockets.

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... ... ... ...

anyway, maybe that's part of the problem in the US, being mired in old, slow, under developed designs?

 

I don't think it's all that much of the problem with SAILING as a sport, but it certainly affects the boat market. We have huge numbers of old slow underdeveloped beaters for sale cheap... shucks, being given away.

 

I had a long and somewhat-contentious discussion with a group of sailors about a junior program here, and they were all PO'd (that's an Americanism for "angry") that I insisted on self-rescuing boats. 90% of them were devotees of boats that were not self-bailing. My response is pretty much WTF? Small boats have been self-bailing for 50 years now... even my grandfather (who though fiberglass was a Communist plot) realized that self-bailing boats were a huge improvement.

 

Mired in the past? Ya think?

 

FB- Doug

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I have to agree on the self bailing thing. I love it when I hit the piss and the boat comes up dry. Hell even my 505 was often drier after a capsize than it was going to weather from the spray and waves crashing over the boat. Now the newer boats take a wave over the bow and it just runs the length of the boat and off the transom. It does take a little getting used to for many to look back and not see a closed off transom. Once you realize that once you're planing, it is redundant. When not planing, it shouldn't be in the water anyway.

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What I find interesting is the "smart bomb"-like focus Mr. Devoti has on exactly how to make this boat a success. He's not leaving things to chance or to the purchasers to make it go. Regattas, marketing and promotion are obviously an important part of the plan from the start.

 

Most new designs are "Field of Dreams" style promotions - "Build it and they shall come". The problem is that it gets built and no one shows up except the person who wanted the first one. The D-One appears to be a professional marketing effort where the first real boat is seen by Mr. Devoti as far less important than the first real regatta - and that may be the key to getting a new design to survive infant mortality.

 

It will be interesting to see how well LDC does in making the RS formula work on their new RS100. They've worked their formula successfully, but the product line is getting broader and their marketing budget is getting cut into smaller and smaller slices to support the ever bigger pie. I've always been a fan of small focused Ferrari-style efforts as opposed to Toyota-like conglomerates that produce exhaustive laundry lists of product options.

 

I'm of the opinion that sailing is a limited specialty niche recreational market where Toyota-like volumes and profits are not practically achievable, but a smaller volume, more focused effort like Ferrari can be profitable because they are not counting on production volumes driving investor return expectations.

 

Please note I've been careful selecting my comparisons here - I'm not trying to insult either effort, but rather to point out both are quality efforts with different approaches.

 

A question that begs to be asked here is how Luca Devoti has managed to promote and drive the D-One to visibility and first regatta reports here on Sailing Anarchy with what appears to be far less resources and established channels that LDC could bring to bear to launch the RS100. More notable is that the RS100 certainly appears to be an artistically refined and well executed design, prettier and sexier (Maria Sharapova?) than the D-One which shows more raw engineering influence (Arantxa Sanchez Vicario?) than artistic talent.

 

Something to think about.

 

--

Bill

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we wanted a boat that was seaworthy, easy to get up after a capsize, roofrackable and with weight equalization, easy to hike out and not endangering the back like you do with droup hiking so that most people could have fun and have a chance at winning.....that is why the d one looks like that and we used prime materials tp keep the weight low while building a big dinghy....we will soon announce a racing circuit and bring boats into the states , but my personal drive behind the all thing is a dream:through a friendly , short , judges almost free format, to bring back racing dinghies and sailing to be a bubble of relax and happiness in a world of madness....it is only a matter of perpective, you might think that the mad one is luca...and that has been my nickname all my sailing career long....but sailing needs to be turned upside down with bots that are fun to sail but not dangerous...we are giving it a shot....luca

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we wanted a boat that was seaworthy, easy to get up after a capsize, roofrackable and with weight equalization, easy to hike out and not endangering the back like you do with droup hiking so that most people could have fun and have a chance at winning.....that is why the d one looks like that and we used prime materials tp keep the weight low while building a big dinghy....we will soon announce a racing circuit and bring boats into the states , but my personal drive behind the all thing is a dream:through a friendly , short , judges almost free format, to bring back racing dinghies and sailing to be a bubble of relax and happiness in a world of madness....it is only a matter of perpective, you might think that the mad one is luca...and that has been my nickname all my sailing career long....but sailing needs to be turned upside down with bots that are fun to sail but not dangerous...we are giving it a shot....luca

In the US might I make a suggestion?

 

I know you are looking to promote the DOne, but the single-hander Asso planing Dinghy is a market that has a fair amount of fragmentation in it. Two boats that have had moderate success have been the Swift Solos and the MPSes. In no small part because they have joined their efforts to do joint major events.

 

I think in the states - because of the long haul between the coasts (which BTW I think is one of the reasons that sailing has some problems here) you will build a stronger following and a deeper fleet if you invite these other boatst to participate in major events and set up a precedent for sailing against each other under PY handicap.

 

That way you will maximize your marketing in a very large market, while pre-empting any perceptions of threatening their entrees into the market.

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What I find interesting is the "smart bomb"-like focus Mr. Devoti has on exactly how to make this boat a success. He's not leaving things to chance or to the purchasers to make it go. Regattas, marketing and promotion are obviously an important part of the plan from the start.

 

Most new designs are "Field of Dreams" style promotions - "Build it and they shall come". The problem is that it gets built and no one shows up except the person who wanted the first one. The D-One appears to be a professional marketing effort where the first real boat is seen by Mr. Devoti as far less important than the first real regatta - and that may be the key to getting a new design to survive infant mortality.

 

It will be interesting to see how well LDC does in making the RS formula work on their new RS100. They've worked their formula successfully, but the product line is getting broader and their marketing budget is getting cut into smaller and smaller slices to support the ever bigger pie. I've always been a fan of small focused Ferrari-style efforts as opposed to Toyota-like conglomerates that produce exhaustive laundry lists of product options.

 

I'm of the opinion that sailing is a limited specialty niche recreational market where Toyota-like volumes and profits are not practically achievable, but a smaller volume, more focused effort like Ferrari can be profitable because they are not counting on production volumes driving investor return expectations.

 

Please note I've been careful selecting my comparisons here - I'm not trying to insult either effort, but rather to point out both are quality efforts with different approaches.

 

A question that begs to be asked here is how Luca Devoti has managed to promote and drive the D-One to visibility and first regatta reports here on Sailing Anarchy with what appears to be far less resources and established channels that LDC could bring to bear to launch the RS100. More notable is that the RS100 certainly appears to be an artistically refined and well executed design, prettier and sexier (Maria Sharapova?) than the D-One which shows more raw engineering influence (Arantxa Sanchez Vicario?) than artistic talent.

 

Something to think about.

 

--

Bill

Interesting comments Bill. I know we became enamored with the D-One effort not necessarily through love of the boat - in fact it took a while to grow on me though it is superlative in many ways - but through the attitude that Luca has toward racing and marketing. As one of the strongest critics of the half-assed way that most sailing companies do their marketing, Luca's laser-like focus on his goals has been something to watch. His comments about being mad are no joke; most of the sport's most influential minds consider him something of a mad genius, and I'm learning a lot from him just standing back and watching.

 

By contrast, two other designs with a likelihood of success - the WETA and RS-100 - have escaped our notice to a bigger extent. It's not that we don't publicize what they tell us and what we research independently, but the RS seems to have confined much of its efforts toward the UK and the WETA is relying more on enthusiastic cheerleaders with strong ties to the high-performance dinghy market in the US. But if the 100-boat pre-order and 60+ boat WETA year are true, it's exciting times for this sector of the racing world.

 

We truly are looking forward to hearing more about all these fun boats and hoping to see them all succeed. I told Devoti a long time ago that I didn't think he should view the other new singlehanders as his competition in North America, but as partners in a battle to get the sailing public to agree that the difference in fun factor between a Laser, Finn, or similar boat and a lightweight assymetric boat outweighs their cost and the current lack of big fleet racing.

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What I find interesting is the "smart bomb"-like focus Mr. Devoti has on exactly how to make this boat a success. He's not leaving things to chance or to the purchasers to make it go. Regattas, marketing and promotion are obviously an important part of the plan from the start.

 

Most new designs are "Field of Dreams" style promotions - "Build it and they shall come". The problem is that it gets built and no one shows up except the person who wanted the first one. The D-One appears to be a professional marketing effort where the first real boat is seen by Mr. Devoti as far less important than the first real regatta - and that may be the key to getting a new design to survive infant mortality.

 

It will be interesting to see how well LDC does in making the RS formula work on their new RS100. They've worked their formula successfully, but the product line is getting broader and their marketing budget is getting cut into smaller and smaller slices to support the ever bigger pie. I've always been a fan of small focused Ferrari-style efforts as opposed to Toyota-like conglomerates that produce exhaustive laundry lists of product options.

 

I'm of the opinion that sailing is a limited specialty niche recreational market where Toyota-like volumes and profits are not practically achievable, but a smaller volume, more focused effort like Ferrari can be profitable because they are not counting on production volumes driving investor return expectations.

 

Please note I've been careful selecting my comparisons here - I'm not trying to insult either effort, but rather to point out both are quality efforts with different approaches.

 

A question that begs to be asked here is how Luca Devoti has managed to promote and drive the D-One to visibility and first regatta reports here on Sailing Anarchy with what appears to be far less resources and established channels that LDC could bring to bear to launch the RS100. More notable is that the RS100 certainly appears to be an artistically refined and well executed design, prettier and sexier (Maria Sharapova?) than the D-One which shows more raw engineering influence (Arantxa Sanchez Vicario?) than artistic talent.

 

Something to think about.

 

--

Bill

Interesting comments Bill. I know we became enamored with the D-One effort not necessarily through love of the boat - in fact it took a while to grow on me though it is superlative in many ways - but through the attitude that Luca has toward racing and marketing. As one of the strongest critics of the half-assed way that most sailing companies do their marketing, Luca's laser-like focus on his goals has been something to watch. His comments about being mad are no joke; most of the sport's most influential minds consider him something of a mad genius, and I'm learning a lot from him just standing back and watching.

 

By contrast, two other designs with a likelihood of success - the WETA and RS-100 - have escaped our notice to a bigger extent. It's not that we don't publicize what they tell us and what we research independently, but the RS seems to have confined much of its efforts toward the UK and the WETA is relying more on enthusiastic cheerleaders with strong ties to the high-performance dinghy market in the US. But if the 100-boat pre-order and 60+ boat WETA year are true, it's exciting times for this sector of the racing world.

 

We truly are looking forward to hearing more about all these fun boats and hoping to see them all succeed. I told Devoti a long time ago that I didn't think he should view the other new singlehanders as his competition in North America, but as partners in a battle to get the sailing public to agree that the difference in fun factor between a Laser, Finn, or similar boat and a lightweight assymetric boat outweighs their cost and the current lack of big fleet racing.

My feedback from trying to regrow the Contender fleet in NA is that it does require champions. It is a difficult uphill climb due to the huge travel involved, you need to find those crazy enthusiastic individuals that sell sell sell for free.

 

If you do get them - then you have a good chance - otherwise no chance. Our fleet is so lucky to have such a huge successful fleet around the world that can keep helping North America.

 

Neil

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These new boats are beauties, no doubt.

 

What Bill and Neil stated, mostly.

 

I must add that Neil's fleet benefits from the wonder design and history of the contender. It is something which RS and D-boats seek, and quite illusive at times, even with gonzo merchandising and so on.

 

Hard to come abeam of a winner like the Contender, beer coolers or no.

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IN response to the RS100 thread question, you decide if this is planing upwind? imo- it certainly looks faster than most other hiker singlehanders I've seen...

 

http://www.devoti-one.com/sites/default/fi...devotid-one.flv

 

edit: sorry, the link goes to a vid hosted here:

 

http://www.devoti-one.com/video

 

5th video down 'Testing D-One - Garda 2009'

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so just to come back to the question of steve adolph......surely two can sail the d one , we even had two big guys sailing in a real blow...though i would not reccomend it..... and they had tremendous fun, ...but all this sounds a bit too much like marketing...well best thing if you are interested is trying ....and judging for yourself .will organize some demos in the states , will come back to you on that.

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Is it just me or does it look like this was designed 15 years ago .

With today's technology why on earth would you build that?

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Is it just me or does it look like this was designed 15 years ago .

 

I think its you... Whilst it does almost everything differently to the way I would personally do it, I don't know that anything about it is obiously obsolete *given the base parameters chosen by the designer*.

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we are bringing our first sold d ones into the states in january......and i will be coming over te develope a bit of a plan,,,will keep you posted , luca

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No , it doesn't need a dvd player nor do we need a finn with a spinnaker . Still isaf will welcome it with open arms , just another slow non development boat for the olympics...... BORING

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D-One rigging guide

 

For all those lucky people with D-Ones, or orders for D-Ones, you can find the first draft of the official rigging guide here:- http://www.devoti-one.co.uk/d-oneriggingguide.pdf

 

Rodney

 

rodney@devoti-one.co.uk

 

we will take you from here:

post-40596-1258878385.jpg

 

to here

post-40596-1258878430_thumb.jpg

 

Is that main made with the same crap sailcloth the old 49er sails used to be made out of?

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no , it is made from some other "crap material"...... ;) , but i have been sailing with one sail for about three months almost everyday in the breeze and shape was ok after that, so seems to last quite well......

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no , it is made from some other "crap material"...... ;) , but i have been sailing with one sail for about three months almost everyday in the breeze and shape was ok after that, so seems to last quite well......

 

Fair enough - the closeups in the Rigging guide looked scarily similar - Jibs that lasted a month of training...blech.

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price? i think i read somewhere uk 10k? which i think is about us $15k? i know its apples to oranges, but id take a bladerider any day if i wanted to spend that kind of coin on a singlehander...

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the moth is one fenomenal piece of kit....the d one is much easier to sail and different...i d love to have a go on a moth but at my weight and age just do not think i could go anywhere , the d one i can still sail and have a lot of fun....

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You can sail it Luca, but only in >12 knots and if you think you're sore after sailing a Finn, wait until you see what a Moth does to them old bones.

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price? i think i read somewhere uk 10k? which i think is about us $15k? i know its apples to oranges, but id take a bladerider any day if i wanted to spend that kind of coin on a singlehander...

That will get you the lower end Bladerider. I think it is also close to the price of a new MPS as well. All three are very good boats but are also at the same time rather different. The other thing to think about is that if you are a large guy like me and in an area that doesn't really see 15+ all that often, the D One isn't a bad option. I'd be keen to get or build a Moth but I see myself doing the same thing I did with sailboards and end up sitting on the beach waiting for the wind. With my Swift, I only sit on the beach waiting for the wind when it is dead calm and can easily have a blast in marginal conditions. I see the D One in the same light.

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price? i think i read somewhere uk 10k? which i think is about us $15k? i know its apples to oranges, but id take a bladerider any day if i wanted to spend that kind of coin on a singlehander...

That will get you the lower end Bladerider. I think it is also close to the price of a new MPS as well. All three are very good boats but are also at the same time rather different. The other thing to think about is that if you are a large guy like me and in an area that doesn't really see 15+ all that often, the D One isn't a bad option. I'd be keen to get or build a Moth but I see myself doing the same thing I did with sailboards and end up sitting on the beach waiting for the wind. With my Swift, I only sit on the beach waiting for the wind when it is dead calm and can easily have a blast in marginal conditions. I see the D One in the same light.

 

Yeah. Little boats are not cheep. I actually just got a new Smart Car in the States for less then what I was quoted on a new Mach2. (don't worry, just window shopping). Even new Lasers are pretty spendy these days +$11K USD. Just a sign of the times. Anything hand built is going to rather expensive even if build in China (the Mach2 are).

 

I think that the D-Ones look pretty nice, and I would hope that some of the people who fear the trap would upgrade their lasers. :D

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Thought I would temporarily come out of hiding a state that the D1 is a great fun boat and everything Luca said he wanted it to be in his November post.

 

One of my favourite boat tests.

 

post-3930-1263353112_thumb.jpg

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Thought I would temporarily come out of hiding a state that the D1 is a great fun boat and everything Luca said he wanted it to be in his November post.

 

One of my favourite boat tests.

 

post-3930-1263353112_thumb.jpg

After having built and sailed a Swift, how do you think they compare?

 

Your perspective as someone who has actually sailed a hiking asym boat and a trap asym would be interesting.

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Rodders released some of the first photos from the new 'angular' deck mould the other day now on a hull.

 

I have to say I think it makes the aesthetics on this beast one hell of a lot better:

post-27388-1263554405_thumb.jpg

post-27388-1263554674_thumb.jpg

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Rodders released some of the first photos from the new 'angular' deck mould the other day now on a hull.

 

I have to say I think it makes the aesthetics on this beast one hell of a lot better:

 

You know you're going to end up with one you Tart, as soon as Sir Russell toasts your arse in his 300 you'll be off to visit Rodney cap in hand...

 

"Er I didn't mean it Rodders"

 

"I think it looks good in black now"

 

"They lead me on, the bastards on the Y&Y forum, that grumpf made me say it's ugly"

 

"Who should I make the cheque out to, can I pay extra for all the trouble I've caused?"

 

 

wind-1.jpg

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mate all I'm saying is I thinks it's a massive improvement.

 

It's a bit like a tranny in a lesbian porno flick... you know shouldn't like it, you know it's just your eyes playing tricks on your mind, but as long as you don't actually ride it, then you're still be okay.

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mate all I'm saying is I thinks it's a massive improvement.

 

It's a bit like a tranny in a lesbian porno flick... you know shouldn't like it, you know it's just your eyes playing tricks on your mind, but as long as you don't actually ride it, then you're still be okay.

That's a bit like

"All the time you're pushing you're not gay".

 

I've had a bet with myself, written down a date you'll have it by..

 

I might even have to email it to Sir Russell.

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mate all I'm saying is I thinks it's a massive improvement.

 

It's a bit like a tranny in a lesbian porno flick... you know shouldn't like it, you know it's just your eyes playing tricks on your mind, but as long as you don't actually ride it, then you're still be okay.

That's a bit like

"All the time you're pushing you're not gay".

 

I've had a bet with myself, written down a date you'll have it by..

 

I might even have to email it to Sir Russell.

 

 

 

go for it... he's still owes B&Q for the blue paint he nicked when he burnt the Solo.

 

BTW- those hetracil pills you sent, they're fantastic for curing D-One turncoat syndrome.

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Grumpf is right Jimbo, you will be knocking on their door with tears dribbling down your face begging rodders to take an RS100 in px, after i have tanned your sorry hind in the 3!! B&Q had run out of blue emulsion so i had to use creosote, trouble is it won't come off! i now look like a chubby smurf!

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I quite expect you to go quicker Sir Russ, it is a faster boat with a lower PY; but I'll not be jumping ship to the even quicker D-One as you and Grumpfs seem to think. My lovely manageable RS100 will suffice, for now and for a good while longer than that bloody Phantom that's for sure!

 

I do hope we get to sail with the D-Ones some point soon, especially in these 'early days' for both classes. As Clean said the 100 & D-One should view each other as co- operators, not competitors; partnered in the quest to offer the sailing world something different to the boring unarig hangover from the 20th century... we're a decade on, and singlehanded sailing is only just about catching up with double-handers! I'm just pleased to see that some of the criticism levied at the D-One is being addressed- the Mk 2 deck does look a LOT better and improves the overall aesthetics dramatically.

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[snip]

I do hope we get to sail with the D-Ones some point soon, especially in these 'early days' for both classes. As Clean said the 100 & D-One should view each other as co- operators, not competitors; partnered in the quest to offer the sailing world something different to the boring unarig hangover from the 20th century... we're a decade on, and singlehanded sailing is only just about catching up with double-handers! I'm just pleased to see that some of the criticism levied at the D-One is being addressed- the Mk 2 deck does look a LOT better and improves the overall aesthetics dramatically.

Don't discount this. It has worked well for the Swift Solos and MPSs for a few years. It adds to the boats on the water for an event and we can share costs, stories, and suds. This last year, we added an RS700 and it seemed to fit in quite well. In the early stages of building classes, I think we go on our own at our own peril.

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Wouldn't be the "RS way" really, in this country at least. Remember they've pre sold over 100, the bulk of which will be in the UK. The RS will be on hand to help the newborn class establish its national circuit and championships. I'd of thought the "boats on the water"/"cost sharing" issues will more likely be taken care of by "buddying" with one of the existing RS classes.

 

Class and club structure is different in the UK to the US, Fugu. What you suggest though may well be sensible idea outside the UK.

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Don't discount this. It has worked well for the Swift Solos and MPSs for a few years. It adds to the boats on the water for an event and we can share costs, stories, and suds. This last year, we added an RS700 and it seemed to fit in quite well. In the early stages of building classes, I think we go on our own at our own peril.

 

Amen. :D Yes I agree... all Singlelhand skiff-er have the same goal, figuring out how to graft one or two more arms onto a human torso.

 

I think that the D-One and the R100 look very cool. I would love having some of the local Laser sailors have no excuses not to upgrade to a skiff.

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A few new pics sent on from Luca, update on the front page tonight. This is the new foredeck version. 50 D-Ones have been sold in total, they are projecting a total of 100 sold during 2010.

IMG_2426.JPG

IMG_2424.JPG

IMG_2423.JPG

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IMG_2419.JPG

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Good job it comes in a different colour, what's with royal blue, homage to Delftware or what?

 

Have to say I think the angles on the new deck go a long way to answering the criticism of the look n' feel of the Prototype and Mark 1 boats.

 

post-27388-1264775363_thumb.jpg

 

mmm, black, nice!

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What is the likelihood of fleets developing in the US?

 

Now that is the million dollar question.

 

Another new single hander one design. Another boat that costs as much as a (cheap new) car. Another boat being built in Europe that is practically unattainable in North America.

 

Bruce Kirby was a genius. He understood something called affordability and availability.

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It is going to take a motivated individual (because it usually comes down to just one guy) to buy some boats, go to regattas, take people for rides, go to regattas and let people race them, and generally talk it up.

 

What do you mean "another single hander"? Right now we have sunfish, which are primitive boats (lanteen rig, anyone?) for guys under, say, 5'8", lasers which are a $5k, the pain box that is a finn if you are a big guy and haven't injured yourself yet (how much is that new mast?). Contenders are pretty thin on the ground, moths are a blast, but definately not for everyone (and also $15-22k), a cats are a blast and take up a huge footprint. There is not a carbon, skiff style winged boat with an a-sail among them. As for unobtainable, you can load up a 20' container easy. Vipers are made by Rondar, and they are anything but unobtainable.

 

Kirby was a genius, that I will not dispute. But a high performance, carbon boat is going to appeal to a select niche in the US. For some reason, we like slow boat (I mean tactical, sorry snipes, Etchells, etc.) here. Luca says there's someone in Rhode Island who is interested in becoming a dealer. I hope they make it happen. Hell, under different circumstances, I'd consider getting about 6 boats and a trailer and hitting the road with them.

 

Full disclosure: current sunfish sailor, past 505 sailor

 

and pardon me for forgetting,

 

f-off newbie!

 

there you go, you've been greeted to SA

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It is going to take a motivated individual (because it usually comes down to just one guy) to buy some boats, go to regattas, take people for rides, go to regattas and let people race them, and generally talk it up.

 

It takes a lot more than one guy, except in feel-good movies of the week. No one has really done this successfully since Bruce Kirby brought out the Laser. Timing is critical, price is critical, target buyer is critical and having the financial legs to start, run and complete a multi-year sales campaign is absolutely critical. There is no lack of great boats that fit the niche, but there is a serous lack of marketing dollars and patience out there. The single major reason for this is that the after tax return on investment in this marketplace just isn't the most attractive home for investment capital right now.

 

Price is driven by volume, and reaching prices necessary to enable volume means off-shore manufacturing. Off shore manufacturing means up-front volume commitment and non-recurring tooling investment, and that is too much money to ante up to bother sitting at a high risk table.

 

The Laser came out back in the day where North American labor was more competitive, the general business mood was a lot more optimistic, people had one hell of a lot more free time and work loads were much lower. People had stable jobs with pensions, and affording a mortgage wasn't a two person commitment. Things have changed.

 

What do you mean "another single hander"? Right now we have sunfish, which are primitive boats (lanteen rig, anyone?) for guys under, say, 5'8", lasers which are a $5k, the pain box that is a finn if you are a big guy and haven't injured yourself yet (how much is that new mast?). Contenders are pretty thin on the ground, moths are a blast, but definately not for everyone (and also $15-22k), a cats are a blast and take up a huge footprint. There is not a carbon, skiff style winged boat with an a-sail among them. As for unobtainable, you can load up a 20' container easy. Vipers are made by Rondar, and they are anything but unobtainable.

 

The CL Stealth, the RS100, Devoti D-One, the RS700, Musto Performance Skiff, Melges 17 etc. SwiftSolos are under discussion for higher volume production, Eric McNicholl's Falco & Quetzal, the Australian single handers ... there is no lack of high performance asymmetric skiffish options. Many of them are affordable and price can be significantly lower if you are willing to trade labor for cash.

 

All of these options are out there, but achieving critical mass is elusive at best.

 

It would be interesting to discuss how this could be done successfuly.

 

--

Bill

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Good points Bill. One guy- think Ali Meller for the 505 class in Annapolis, or Macho for finns on the Gulf coast. A lot of classes are driven by one workhorse leader.

 

Your analysis of production boats is 100% accurate. However, I believe that the D-One will not be a high volume boat, and will therefore by definition be more expensive. Take 505's- when Waterat was building boats, they were $35000, no sails, no trailer. Rondar 505s are also pretty close to that. They, and D-Ones, are both made in developed countries of high tech materials. And I think both are going to remain low-volume.

 

A lot of the other dinghies you list are trap boats, not hikers, and not really in the same classification. And Europe and Oz always have the cooler toys when it comes to boats like that- we just don't have the high performance boat mentality here.

 

Critical mass is key to it happening, and the racing being fun. Some people like to be a first mover on new innovations. I think it will take a group of those guys, working together, to make it happen.

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The biggest problem I have where I live is that people look at what I've put into the Swift and say "Wow. I could buy a used Santana 525 for less than than and then I could drink my beer while racing." I figure I built my boat for about 1/3 of the cost to have someone else build it for me. Even back in the Waterat 505 days, I couldn't see putting $30K into a sixteen foot boat.

 

What we really need is an economic miracle where we have a lot of disposable income again and time to enjoy it. I don't see that happening. I'm OK with being in a niche market. Everyone tells me I should get a Laser and follow the crowd. The crowd doesn't interest me so I'll stay an odd-ball and enjoy my sailing the way it is.

 

I've yet to see the point that fleets have to be huge all over the world for a class to be viable. Besides, even the Laser had its early growth phase.

 

I truly hope the D-One, RSXXX, and Stealth find a place on the water. I think the excitement would be good for sailing.

 

Another way to look at is that by the time you get all of the go-fast stuff for a new Laser, they aren't that cheep anymore. Sure you can get a used one for cheep, but comparing a used Laser to the cost of a new D-One isn't even apples to oranges. It is more like discarded apple cores to oranges. There might be some meat left on the core but it isn't the same as the brand new apple.

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i am not particulary good at internet marketing.....but what will eventually bring sailing to a more modern dimension is passion and fun , and the d one in that is magic...and passion is the engine behind my yard where everybody sails.....it will require a bit of time to get the class going but the real feedback from actual owners is fantastic....devotisailing is not a marketing company ..we are old fashioned boatbuilders and put our name to what we do...and all this energetic newbie type style postings makes me believe even more in the potential of the boat...so if anyone wants to sail a d one just contact me personally and i will find a way to get you sailing.... all the guys that have tested the boat so far including several journos have come ashore with a big grin....might take time but i strongly believe that quality products honestly priced evetually find their way ....even with this lame crises....and the power of the net....luca

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i am not particulary good at internet marketing.....but what will eventually bring sailing to a more modern dimension is passion and fun , and the d one in that is magic...and passion is the engine behind my yard where everybody sails.....it will require a bit of time to get the class going but the real feedback from actual owners is fantastic....devotisailing is not a marketing company ..we are old fashioned boatbuilders and put our name to what we do...and all this energetic newbie type style postings makes me believe even more in the potential of the boat...so if anyone wants to sail a d one just contact me personally and i will find a way to get you sailing.... all the guys that have tested the boat so far including several journos have come ashore with a big grin....might take time but i strongly believe that quality products honestly priced evetually find their way ....even with this lame crises....and the power of the net....luca

 

You are a lot better at marketing than you let on! Passion and patience are more important than money as long as your measure of success is fun racing and happy owners instead of earnings, rate of return and profits. An operation like yours has a far better chance of success than a cash-consuming money machine because you can go farther on less cash and last longer.

 

You've also started with game with some critical goals scored already. You have performance credibility, a track record and people that trust you. That counts for a lot of budget that others have to spend to get to the same point.

 

Keep up your efforts on the Internet, keep up with having people like jfunk reviewing the boat and the D-One will eventually hit critical mass. I'd sure love to try one out here in Ottawa!

 

--

Bill

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we are going to ship a few containers of charter boats to san fran for the finn gold cup and will bring a few d ones over to tour around to get anyone that wants sailng the boat...might take personally the chane and hit the road all around north america...really a country i do not know but where i have a lot of friends so it will be a really fun trip...just get directly in touch with me and we will work out a way to get you sailing.....thanks luca devotiluca@gmail.com

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The biggest problem I have where I live is that people look at what I've put into the Swift and say "Wow. I could buy a used Santana 525 for less than than and then I could drink my beer while racing." I figure I built my boat for about 1/3 of the cost to have someone else build it for me. Even back in the Waterat 505 days, I couldn't see putting $30K into a sixteen foot boat.

 

What we really need is an economic miracle where we have a lot of disposable income again and time to enjoy it. I don't see that happening. I'm OK with being in a niche market. Everyone tells me I should get a Laser and follow the crowd. The crowd doesn't interest me so I'll stay an odd-ball and enjoy my sailing the way it is.

 

I've yet to see the point that fleets have to be huge all over the world for a class to be viable. Besides, even the Laser had its early growth phase.

 

I truly hope the D-One, RSXXX, and Stealth find a place on the water. I think the excitement would be good for sailing.

 

Another way to look at is that by the time you get all of the go-fast stuff for a new Laser, they aren't that cheep anymore. Sure you can get a used one for cheep, but comparing a used Laser to the cost of a new D-One isn't even apples to oranges. It is more like discarded apple cores to oranges. There might be some meat left on the core but it isn't the same as the brand new apple.

 

Fugu,

 

You make some good points. However, I just bought a 3 year old Laser with both rigs, trailer, and dolly for my wife for $4000. Pretty reasonable I think.

 

It depends on what you're interested in. If its racing, you certainly can't beat a Laser for the amount of events and the level of skill required to be competitive. And in a blow, they can be very challenging. However, if you're looking for faster daysailing and less emphasis on racing, a skiff is the way to go. I still have my old A Cat race boat which gives me all the speed I need and still gets me on a trap when I'm bored with the Laser or when its not windy enough for me to windsurf.

 

I've been looking at sportboats a lot lately. Something like a Viper 640 gives a skiff like ride with some additional comfort and the ability to take some friends. Used at around $20K. Again though, a limited niche market.

 

Think about the success of Kiteboarding. Fast, exciting, pack everything in the trunk of your car and cheap enough for anyone to afford, regardless of the economy. Now there's a success story!

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The biggest problem I have where I live is that people look at what I've put into the Swift and say "Wow. I could buy a used Santana 525 for less than than and then I could drink my beer while racing." I figure I built my boat for about 1/3 of the cost to have someone else build it for me. Even back in the Waterat 505 days, I couldn't see putting $30K into a sixteen foot boat.

 

What we really need is an economic miracle where we have a lot of disposable income again and time to enjoy it. I don't see that happening. I'm OK with being in a niche market. Everyone tells me I should get a Laser and follow the crowd. The crowd doesn't interest me so I'll stay an odd-ball and enjoy my sailing the way it is.

 

I've yet to see the point that fleets have to be huge all over the world for a class to be viable. Besides, even the Laser had its early growth phase.

 

I truly hope the D-One, RSXXX, and Stealth find a place on the water. I think the excitement would be good for sailing.

 

Another way to look at is that by the time you get all of the go-fast stuff for a new Laser, they aren't that cheep anymore. Sure you can get a used one for cheep, but comparing a used Laser to the cost of a new D-One isn't even apples to oranges. It is more like discarded apple cores to oranges. There might be some meat left on the core but it isn't the same as the brand new apple.

 

Fugu,

 

You make some good points. However, I just bought a 3 year old Laser with both rigs, trailer, and dolly for my wife for $4000. Pretty reasonable I think.

 

It depends on what you're interested in. If its racing, you certainly can't beat a Laser for the amount of events and the level of skill required to be competitive. And in a blow, they can be very challenging. However, if you're looking for faster daysailing and less emphasis on racing, a skiff is the way to go. I still have my old A Cat race boat which gives me all the speed I need and still gets me on a trap when I'm bored with the Laser or when its not windy enough for me to windsurf.

 

I've been looking at sportboats a lot lately. Something like a Viper 640 gives a skiff like ride with some additional comfort and the ability to take some friends. Used at around $20K. Again though, a limited niche market.

 

Think about the success of Kiteboarding. Fast, exciting, pack everything in the trunk of your car and cheap enough for anyone to afford, regardless of the economy. Now there's a success story!

And this is part of my point. You bought a USED Laser that you are comparing to a NEW D-One. In time there will be a used market of D-Ones, Stealths, MPS, etc. and when there is, I'll be OK with comparing prices and values.

 

Again for less than you paid for your Laser, one can buy a good Santana 525 ready to sail. Now ask your wife which she'd rather sail on and you'll see what we're up against. Sure the Laser can go anywhere but if you want to take the wife, kids, and some friends sailing, where do you put your $4k? When comparing a $4k Laser to a $4k S525, the value of the Laser doesn't look as good to someone just coming into the market.

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Fugu,

 

You make some good points. However, I just bought a 3 year old Laser with both rigs, trailer, and dolly for my wife for $4000. Pretty reasonable I think.

 

It depends on what you're interested in. If its racing, you certainly can't beat a Laser for the amount of events and the level of skill required to be competitive. And in a blow, they can be very challenging. However, if you're looking for faster daysailing and less emphasis on racing, a skiff is the way to go. I still have my old A Cat race boat which gives me all the speed I need and still gets me on a trap when I'm bored with the Laser or when its not windy enough for me to windsurf.

 

I've been looking at sportboats a lot lately. Something like a Viper 640 gives a skiff like ride with some additional comfort and the ability to take some friends. Used at around $20K. Again though, a limited niche market.

 

Think about the success of Kiteboarding. Fast, exciting, pack everything in the trunk of your car and cheap enough for anyone to afford, regardless of the economy. Now there's a success story!

 

Laser's have a lot of problems as an example boat. First off, when they came out, their only competition was the SunFish and the Finn. Laser's were cheap, easy to get going in, but challenging to make go fast, faster than most of the competition and almost zero maintenance. The filled a large voide that existed.

 

Today there is no such large void per se. the "market hole" for a dinghy like the D-One, is the "XGames" hole. Because 40+ years of FG boatbuilding has filled pretty much every nich of sailing other than the "XSports" slot with more than one kind of boat: 505's, Contenders, Lasers, Santana 21s, J24s, Ultimate 20s etc.

 

So from a "market analysis" perspective, the D-One IS VERY MUCH competing in the same market as the Musto, RS 700, Swift Solo. And all of those are in competition with bastardized 29ers, Laser IIs etc. the fact that one is a hiker and the other's trapeze boats is a bit like saying that the Toyota Highlander and the VW Tuareg are not in competition with each other because one is a Diesel and the other not.

 

Sorry no. Trapeze or hiking rack is a feature difference within the same market segment.

 

 

Kiteboarding also fits that "XGames" hole. And as you point out, the $$ price of kiteboarding is much much lower. This lowers two very critical 'barrier's to Entry"

  • It means that folks are more willing to drop $2k-$3k to "try it out" and then resell their gear of they don't like it for only about a $1k loss
  • It also means that lots and lots of small businesses can set up that rent this equipment and give lessons.

You cannot underestimate the importance of the latter. This is what is known as the "network effect" Essentially you get some of your customers to become your evangelists and sales staff.

 

Think about how dramatically say the Swift Solo fleet would expand if 70% of the sailing teams and schools started using them? Setting aside the profits of just the sailing school market. Suddenly all the folks who went through sailing schools would want one as their first boat. The Musto and the RS 700 wouldn't stand a chance.

 

but the gotcha here is that the price point of all four boats: Swift, Musto, RS and D-One are high enough that they preclude this from happening. (yes you can build your own swift but that is itself a barrier to entry). Now add in the complexity and skill required to sail them.

 

Compare that to something like the Hobie Wave. It is $5k list. Now the rig costs about $200 - simple AL extrusion. the connectors for the tramp - say $500. and the rotomolded hulls roughly $600 (I checked with a rotomolder). Sail will cost about $500. So the net COST of a Hobie Wave is probably about $1500.

 

that means if i were Hobie and wanted to jumpstart the class, I would go to Club Med, Sandals, etc. and sell them Hobie Waves in fleets of 5 for $15k. Then I would organize some fun Regattaes at one or two of those venues and use the existance of those regattaes as a way of selling Waves to the broader consumer market. Voila - an OD fleet is born.

 

And that is largely what Hobie did.

 

Now can Devotti do the same? I don't think so. Nor can Musto, nor can RS... though I think this is a variation of what they have done in the UK.

 

Frankly it seems to me that the best way someone like Devotti could build the class would be to finde a Yacht Club that has one or two "true believers", and which is looking for a high performance boat for their Sailing School. Then working with that "true believer" put together a deal that sells that club 5 boats at cost. Ideally this is done then with 2 yacht clubs in a relatively small region. Frankly I'd pick San Francisco - and I'd approach St. Fancy, GGYC, San Francisco YC and Sausolito YC. If you get 2 on board, you only have to build 10 boats "at Cost" and then sponsor a season of summer regattaes. You will probably almost immediately sell an additional 2 boats at an "introductory price", and you will get a turnout of probably 6-8 boats each race.

 

run the races prominently enough and offer all the other bay area YCs a "introductory discount" of say 10% over cost if they buy 3 or more boats at once - and odds are you have a self-sustaining fleet in the bay area after year one.

 

Year two you expand that up and down the west coast and into the interior west, holding the nationals in Lake Tahoe and upping your 'fleet builder" price to a 20% premium. Then you do the same starting in Newport RI. You do East Coast second because it has less of a concentration of sailing than the bay area does - AND it is more traditional (Lightnings, fireballs) than the west coast.

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The biggest problem I have where I live is that people look at what I've put into the Swift and say "Wow. I could buy a used Santana 525 for less than than and then I could drink my beer while racing." I figure I built my boat for about 1/3 of the cost to have someone else build it for me. Even back in the Waterat 505 days, I couldn't see putting $30K into a sixteen foot boat.

 

What we really need is an economic miracle where we have a lot of disposable income again and time to enjoy it. I don't see that happening. I'm OK with being in a niche market. Everyone tells me I should get a Laser and follow the crowd. The crowd doesn't interest me so I'll stay an odd-ball and enjoy my sailing the way it is.

 

I've yet to see the point that fleets have to be huge all over the world for a class to be viable. Besides, even the Laser had its early growth phase.

 

I truly hope the D-One, RSXXX, and Stealth find a place on the water. I think the excitement would be good for sailing.

 

Another way to look at is that by the time you get all of the go-fast stuff for a new Laser, they aren't that cheep anymore. Sure you can get a used one for cheep, but comparing a used Laser to the cost of a new D-One isn't even apples to oranges. It is more like discarded apple cores to oranges. There might be some meat left on the core but it isn't the same as the brand new apple.

 

Fugu,

 

You make some good points. However, I just bought a 3 year old Laser with both rigs, trailer, and dolly for my wife for $4000. Pretty reasonable I think.

 

It depends on what you're interested in. If its racing, you certainly can't beat a Laser for the amount of events and the level of skill required to be competitive. And in a blow, they can be very challenging. However, if you're looking for faster daysailing and less emphasis on racing, a skiff is the way to go. I still have my old A Cat race boat which gives me all the speed I need and still gets me on a trap when I'm bored with the Laser or when its not windy enough for me to windsurf.

 

I've been looking at sportboats a lot lately. Something like a Viper 640 gives a skiff like ride with some additional comfort and the ability to take some friends. Used at around $20K. Again though, a limited niche market.

 

Think about the success of Kiteboarding. Fast, exciting, pack everything in the trunk of your car and cheap enough for anyone to afford, regardless of the economy. Now there's a success story!

And this is part of my point. You bought a USED Laser that you are comparing to a NEW D-One. In time there will be a used market of D-Ones, Stealths, MPS, etc. and when there is, I'll be OK with comparing prices and values.

 

Again for less than you paid for your Laser, one can buy a good Santana 525 ready to sail. Now ask your wife which she'd rather sail on and you'll see what we're up against. Sure the Laser can go anywhere but if you want to take the wife, kids, and some friends sailing, where do you put your $4k? When comparing a $4k Laser to a $4k S525, the value of the Laser doesn't look as good to someone just coming into the market.

 

 

For the most part I'm in agreement with you. But, remember the upkeep costs of the Santana versus a Laser. Sails, dockage or storage, insurance, upkeep. You could probably buy a used Laser every year for the amount of money the Santana would cost you. Owning an Olson, I'm sure you know. No doubt the Santana would be much more versatile then a Laser and would be fast, but obviously not skiff fast. Personally I think in that style and vintage of boat, a Wabbit would be much more exciting.

 

I'm not sure that when the D-One, RS, Stealth's make it to the used market if the prices will be as good as Lasers. There's a lot of used Lasers out there so there's plenty for buyers to choose from. All years and conditions. Mine was a bit expensive because it had all the options. But a 10 or 15 year old one with standard rig and fairly good condition would be half as much.

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Fugu,

 

You make some good points. However, I just bought a 3 year old Laser with both rigs, trailer, and dolly for my wife for $4000. Pretty reasonable I think.

 

It depends on what you're interested in. If its racing, you certainly can't beat a Laser for the amount of events and the level of skill required to be competitive. And in a blow, they can be very challenging. However, if you're looking for faster daysailing and less emphasis on racing, a skiff is the way to go. I still have my old A Cat race boat which gives me all the speed I need and still gets me on a trap when I'm bored with the Laser or when its not windy enough for me to windsurf.

 

I've been looking at sportboats a lot lately. Something like a Viper 640 gives a skiff like ride with some additional comfort and the ability to take some friends. Used at around $20K. Again though, a limited niche market.

 

Think about the success of Kiteboarding. Fast, exciting, pack everything in the trunk of your car and cheap enough for anyone to afford, regardless of the economy. Now there's a success story!

 

Laser's have a lot of problems as an example boat. First off, when they came out, their only competition was the SunFish and the Finn. Laser's were cheap, easy to get going in, but challenging to make go fast, faster than most of the competition and almost zero maintenance. The filled a large voide that existed.

 

Today there is no such large void per se. the "market hole" for a dinghy like the D-One, is the "XGames" hole. Because 40+ years of FG boatbuilding has filled pretty much every nich of sailing other than the "XSports" slot with more than one kind of boat: 505's, Contenders, Lasers, Santana 21s, J24s, Ultimate 20s etc.

 

So from a "market analysis" perspective, the D-One IS VERY MUCH competing in the same market as the Musto, RS 700, Swift Solo. And all of those are in competition with bastardized 29ers, Laser IIs etc. the fact that one is a hiker and the other's trapeze boats is a bit like saying that the Toyota Highlander and the VW Tuareg are not in competition with each other because one is a Diesel and the other not.

 

Sorry no. Trapeze or hiking rack is a feature difference within the same market segment.

 

 

Kiteboarding also fits that "XGames" hole. And as you point out, the $$ price of kiteboarding is much much lower. This lowers two very critical 'barrier's to Entry"

  • It means that folks are more willing to drop $2k-$3k to "try it out" and then resell their gear of they don't like it for only about a $1k loss
  • It also means that lots and lots of small businesses can set up that rent this equipment and give lessons.

You cannot underestimate the importance of the latter. This is what is known as the "network effect" Essentially you get some of your customers to become your evangelists and sales staff.

 

Think about how dramatically say the Swift Solo fleet would expand if 70% of the sailing teams and schools started using them? Setting aside the profits of just the sailing school market. Suddenly all the folks who went through sailing schools would want one as their first boat. The Musto and the RS 700 wouldn't stand a chance.

 

but the gotcha here is that the price point of all four boats: Swift, Musto, RS and D-One are high enough that they preclude this from happening. (yes you can build your own swift but that is itself a barrier to entry). Now add in the complexity and skill required to sail them.

 

Compare that to something like the Hobie Wave. It is $5k list. Now the rig costs about $200 - simple AL extrusion. the connectors for the tramp - say $500. and the rotomolded hulls roughly $600 (I checked with a rotomolder). Sail will cost about $500. So the net COST of a Hobie Wave is probably about $1500.

 

that means if i were Hobie and wanted to jumpstart the class, I would go to Club Med, Sandals, etc. and sell them Hobie Waves in fleets of 5 for $15k. Then I would organize some fun Regattaes at one or two of those venues and use the existance of those regattaes as a way of selling Waves to the broader consumer market. Voila - an OD fleet is born.

 

And that is largely what Hobie did.

 

Now can Devotti do the same? I don't think so. Nor can Musto, nor can RS... though I think this is a variation of what they have done in the UK.

 

Frankly it seems to me that the best way someone like Devotti could build the class would be to finde a Yacht Club that has one or two "true believers", and which is looking for a high performance boat for their Sailing School. Then working with that "true believer" put together a deal that sells that club 5 boats at cost. Ideally this is done then with 2 yacht clubs in a relatively small region. Frankly I'd pick San Francisco - and I'd approach St. Fancy, GGYC, San Francisco YC and Sausolito YC. If you get 2 on board, you only have to build 10 boats "at Cost" and then sponsor a season of summer regattaes. You will probably almost immediately sell an additional 2 boats at an "introductory price", and you will get a turnout of probably 6-8 boats each race.

 

run the races prominently enough and offer all the other bay area YCs a "introductory discount" of say 10% over cost if they buy 3 or more boats at once - and odds are you have a self-sustaining fleet in the bay area after year one.

 

Year two you expand that up and down the west coast and into the interior west, holding the nationals in Lake Tahoe and upping your 'fleet builder" price to a 20% premium. Then you do the same starting in Newport RI. You do East Coast second because it has less of a concentration of sailing than the bay area does - AND it is more traditional (Lightnings, fireballs) than the west coast.

 

I'm not a promoter of Laser by any means, but I think even to this day they still sell more boats in the dinghy classification then all the others put together. At least in the U.S. ,like Kiteboarding, they are cheap on a relative basis, minimal upkeep, easy to buy and resell, and easy to sail if you're not concerned about having to sail to their potential.

 

Its just an opinion, but I think performance skiffs and the like, are too challenging to sail for the majority of people getting in to sailing. I don't think many young people and new sailors want to spend that kind of time, money and dedication to go out and get beat up. As you said, at least with Kiteboarding, your not out that much $$ if it doesn't work out and its fairly easy to learn. The same with a Laser.

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The biggest problem I have where I live is that people look at what I've put into the Swift and say "Wow. I could buy a used Santana 525 for less than than and then I could drink my beer while racing." I figure I built my boat for about 1/3 of the cost to have someone else build it for me. Even back in the Waterat 505 days, I couldn't see putting $30K into a sixteen foot boat.

 

What we really need is an economic miracle where we have a lot of disposable income again and time to enjoy it. I don't see that happening. I'm OK with being in a niche market. Everyone tells me I should get a Laser and follow the crowd. The crowd doesn't interest me so I'll stay an odd-ball and enjoy my sailing the way it is.

 

I've yet to see the point that fleets have to be huge all over the world for a class to be viable. Besides, even the Laser had its early growth phase.

 

I truly hope the D-One, RSXXX, and Stealth find a place on the water. I think the excitement would be good for sailing.

 

Another way to look at is that by the time you get all of the go-fast stuff for a new Laser, they aren't that cheep anymore. Sure you can get a used one for cheep, but comparing a used Laser to the cost of a new D-One isn't even apples to oranges. It is more like discarded apple cores to oranges. There might be some meat left on the core but it isn't the same as the brand new apple.

 

Fugu,

 

You make some good points. However, I just bought a 3 year old Laser with both rigs, trailer, and dolly for my wife for $4000. Pretty reasonable I think.

 

It depends on what you're interested in. If its racing, you certainly can't beat a Laser for the amount of events and the level of skill required to be competitive. And in a blow, they can be very challenging. However, if you're looking for faster daysailing and less emphasis on racing, a skiff is the way to go. I still have my old A Cat race boat which gives me all the speed I need and still gets me on a trap when I'm bored with the Laser or when its not windy enough for me to windsurf.

 

I've been looking at sportboats a lot lately. Something like a Viper 640 gives a skiff like ride with some additional comfort and the ability to take some friends. Used at around $20K. Again though, a limited niche market.

 

Think about the success of Kiteboarding. Fast, exciting, pack everything in the trunk of your car and cheap enough for anyone to afford, regardless of the economy. Now there's a success story!

And this is part of my point. You bought a USED Laser that you are comparing to a NEW D-One. In time there will be a used market of D-Ones, Stealths, MPS, etc. and when there is, I'll be OK with comparing prices and values.

 

Again for less than you paid for your Laser, one can buy a good Santana 525 ready to sail. Now ask your wife which she'd rather sail on and you'll see what we're up against. Sure the Laser can go anywhere but if you want to take the wife, kids, and some friends sailing, where do you put your $4k? When comparing a $4k Laser to a $4k S525, the value of the Laser doesn't look as good to someone just coming into the market.

 

 

For the most part I'm in agreement with you. But, remember the upkeep costs of the Santana versus a Laser. Sails, dockage or storage, insurance, upkeep. You could probably buy a used Laser every year for the amount of money the Santana would cost you. Owning an Olson, I'm sure you know. No doubt the Santana would be much more versatile then a Laser and would be fast, but obviously not skiff fast. Personally I think in that style and vintage of boat, a Wabbit would be much more exciting.

 

I'm not sure that when the D-One, RS, Stealth's make it to the used market if the prices will be as good as Lasers. There's a lot of used Lasers out there so there's plenty for buyers to choose from. All years and conditions. Mine was a bit expensive because it had all the options. But a 10 or 15 year old one with standard rig and fairly good condition would be half as much.

The big thing is that people don't look at the cost of upkeep, storage, or maintenance when they compare a Laser to something like the S525 around here. All they can see is for the same layout of money that you put into your used Laser, they get a boat with a cabin they can sleep in, a cooler to pack with beer, a place for all their buddies to sit, and much larger.

 

I also have a problem with comparing a used Laser with an new boat. I'd hope the new skiffish boats don't drop to Laser prices when the used market happens but then I find it completely unfair to compare a ten year-old Laser with a fresh out of the mold D-One. By the time you get all the go fast goodies for a new Laser, you're talking between $6k and $8k, depending on what kind of deal you can cut. For just a couple more $k, you can get much more boat that is possibly better built.

 

I don't see anything knocking the Laser of its pedestal so I don't see why so many Laser sailors seem so threatened.

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The big thing is that people don't look at the cost of upkeep, storage, or maintenance when they compare a Laser to something like the S525 around here. All they can see is for the same layout of money that you put into your used Laser, they get a boat with a cabin they can sleep in, a cooler to pack with beer, a place for all their buddies to sit, and much larger.

 

I also have a problem with comparing a used Laser with an new boat. I'd hope the new skiffish boats don't drop to Laser prices when the used market happens but then I find it completely unfair to compare a ten year-old Laser with a fresh out of the mold D-One. By the time you get all the go fast goodies for a new Laser, you're talking between $6k and $8k, depending on what kind of deal you can cut. For just a couple more $k, you can get much more boat that is possibly better built.

 

I don't see anything knocking the Laser of its pedestal so I don't see why so many Laser sailors seem so threatened.

 

One of my favourite economics blogs is PredictablyIrrational. One of the things that Ariely's research indicates is that we all are less averse to low levels of "pain" over an extended period of time vs a single sharp pain. Economically this means we are more willing to spend $300,000 over 30 years to buy a $100k house, than we are to sign that $100k check up front.

 

Same applies to sailboats. $5k +$200/mo = $12k over 3 years. but you are more likely to make that sale than a $12k Musto on a trailer.

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I'm not a promoter of Laser by any means, but I think even to this day they still sell more boats in the dinghy classification then all the others put together. At least in the U.S. ,like Kiteboarding, they are cheap on a relative basis, minimal upkeep, easy to buy and resell, and easy to sail if you're not concerned about having to sail to their potential.

 

Its just an opinion, but I think performance skiffs and the like, are too challenging to sail for the majority of people getting in to sailing. I don't think many young people and new sailors want to spend that kind of time, money and dedication to go out and get beat up. As you said, at least with Kiteboarding, your not out that much $ if it doesn't work out and its fairly easy to learn. The same with a Laser.

One thing I disagree with is the notion of skiffs being 'too hard' for the average person. There are so many recreational activities that kill surfing in terms of numbers yet are much harder skill wise. Surfing and skateboarding are two that come to mind since I was born and raised on each, and have seen tons of people try and master both. Plenty of others as well, wakeboarding, mogul skiing, the list is pretty endless, and all are much more difficult than skiff sailing.

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One thing I disagree with is the notion of skiffs being 'too hard' for the average person.

 

+1... the new hiking asymmetric dinghies make performance sailing attainable for any average club sailor. With none of the foibles of older designs, I'd go so far as to say boats like the RS100 and D-One are probably easier to get around a course than a Laser anyway; they're certainly more comfortable that's for sure.

 

They bridge the gap to the really high-end performance boats like the MPS, Swift and RS700. They're the 'sensible choice', if like me, you're sat on your arse most of the day and have other commitments pressing on you at weekends. If time on the water is a luxury and not a guaranteed part of your weekly routine then boats like the D-One, RS100 and Stealth give you some decent options.... the builders are sensible enough to maximise the competitive weight band- upwind the rigs can be tuned for lighter weights, downwind the fat bastards can sail higher and faster with relative equality in VMG. Look at the most successful asymmetric singlehander to date- the MPS- crew weight is simply not that much of an issue inside the edges of the proper sailing wind range. Let's just hope enough people are out there who are prepared, and have the financial means, to invest in a better future for single-handed sailing. The more early adopters we have, then the quicker local second hand markets will develop to keep the cycle of growth for this evolving category.

 

As for building 'critical mass', well if Laser is your benchmark forget it, but then as far as I see it there are a plethora of unloved lasers clogging up boat park spaces and not contributing to OTW numbers, so this is a fruitless statistic and appears to be a total anomaly rather than a holy grail to be repeated by today's industry. Can regionalised fleets of say 20 - 30 boats be achieved for some fun W/L racing? I would have thought this is totally do-able, especially if there's unofficial collaboration at owner level.

 

The future's beginning to look good for singlehanded sailors ... :D

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One thing I disagree with is the notion of skiffs being 'too hard' for the average person.

 

+1... the new hiking asymmetric dinghies make performance sailing attainable for any average club sailor. With none of the foibles of older designs, I'd go so far as to say boats like the RS100 and D-One are probably easier to get around a course than a Laser anyway; they're certainly more comfortable that's for sure.

 

They bridge the gap to the really high-end performance boats like the MPS, Swift and RS700. They're the 'sensible choice', if like me, you're sat on your arse most of the day and have other commitments pressing on you at weekends. If time on the water is a luxury and not a guaranteed part of your weekly routine then boats like the D-One, RS100 and Stealth give you some decent options.... the builders are sensible enough to maximise the competitive weight band- upwind the rigs can be tuned for lighter weights, downwind the fat bastards can sail higher and faster with relative equality in VMG. Look at the most successful asymmetric singlehander to date- the MPS- crew weight is simply not that much of an issue inside the edges of the proper sailing wind range. Let's just hope enough people are out there who are prepared, and have the financial means, to invest in a better future for single-handed sailing. The more early adopters we have, then the quicker local second hand markets will develop to keep the cycle of growth for this evolving category.

 

As for building 'critical mass', well if Laser is your benchmark forget it, but then as far as I see it there are a plethora of unloved lasers clogging up boat park spaces and not contributing to OTW numbers, so this is a fruitless statistic and appears to be a total anomaly rather than a holy grail to be repeated by today's industry. Can regionalised fleets of say 20 - 30 boats be achieved for some fun W/L racing? I would have thought this is totally do-able, especially if there's unofficial collaboration at owner level.

 

The future's beginning to look good for singlehanded sailors ... :D

 

I agree that the RS100 and the D-One are going to make it much more attractive for folks to get in to skiff type sailing. However, we are talking about two completely different markets. I believe you're referring to the European market. My perspective is the U.S. Its a lot different over here.

 

I remember first windsurfing in 1980. You guys had been doing it for 5 years and were way ahead of us. Seem like everyone in Europe had a board. Many were sold here in the U.S. in early years, but not many people really mastered it. There were a minority of us that stuck with it to the point that we became comfortable with the sport. The sport here in the U.S. has suffered greatly since the early days and these days and has been replaced by Kiteboarding which is easier to learn and much less expensive.

 

Maybe that what the D-One and RS100 will do for this sport??

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Yes I do have a European perspective, fair point.

 

Like I said, let's hope there are enough people out there, whereever they are, to make this happen by investing in a better future for single handed sailing.

 

Luca Devoti is contributing to this thread and making some generous offers to get some boats out there; and Martin Wadhams from RS is probably keeping a watchful eye too no doubt... what is they could do to assist the US market, a great sporting nation with a strong sailing history shouldn't miss out due to the past legacy of older, boring singlehanders!

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I am commenting from an American perspective on this myself. There are obstacles, no doubt, but I just don't see 'it's too hard' as one of them personally. We have millions of Americans snowboarding halfpipes, and skiff sailing is fairly straightforward by comparision.

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I agree with the comparison to half pipes, but it's also worth pointing out that sailing an asymmetric dinghy like a D-One or RS100 is a lot easier than sailing a 'proper skiff' in the 12/18 sense of the word... far less full on and anyone with a basic level of dinghy sailing experience can have a go and get up to speed within a realistic timeframe. Whether they are competitive will be more to do with who's driving the other boats, rather than which boat has been optimised for faster performance.

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