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Need help -- proposal to club to buy a fleet of 20 footers

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These are crappy times to be a yacht club. Recruiting new members is a bitch -- the pool is much smaller.

 

My contention is that the face of sailing is changing and what real growth there is is in the 20 foot sportboat market. What I'm doing is putting together a proposal -- that has a ton of backing from certain flag officers -- that if the club were to pony up for a fleet of 4-6 boats -- and we wrapped it with the right marketing activities -- that fleet could become a huge marketing asset. In fact we have prior history -- a decade ago we bought a fleet of Ideal 18s which ended up being directly attributable to 35 new members. The prob is that the Ideal is obsolete as a marketing asset -- though nothing intrinsically wrong with it (please don't start, I was biting my lip)

 

What I need help with are the "facts" -- numbers about demographic, sales figures, etc. to build a case that the 20footers are the way to go.

 

What I'm not doing (yet) is picking boats. That is next.

 

Any help is mucho appreciated.

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Your options....

 

Viper 640, Melges 20, Rondar K6, Ultimate 20, Laser SB3, Rocket 22, Shaw 650 and Open 5.70.

 

Not sure where you are.

 

Only established fleets in the USA are Ultimate 20 (227 boats) and Viper 640 (105 boats)

 

Here's the pricing info except for the K6.

 

post-23955-1236044921_thumb.jpg

 

The Melges 20 is just getting started. The Shaw 650 is perhaps many months away from real production. The Open 5.7 is now built in the USA but has only one fleet, in SoCal. The Laser SB3 is trying to wedge in but seem unlikely. Rocket 22 is a low production boat but very nice.

 

Two clubs that I know of have purchased fleets.

 

Bayview Yacht Club in Detroit bought (I believe) 6 Ultimate 20's. This is a hugely successful program with a wide variety of racing from Match through fleet and ODCA.

 

American Yacht Club bought (once again, I believe) 4 Rondar K6's. I have no idea what's up on this club.

 

San Diego YC just took a look/see at buying some Ultimate 20's. No word yet.

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American Yacht Club bought (once again, I believe) 4 Rondar K6's. I have no idea what's up on this club.

 

 

American Y.C. has (I believe) 18 K6's, making it the largest fleet of 20ft sportboats at any individual club (in the U.S.)- as far as I know.

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Viper or sell an I550 group build.

I own and enjoy the Viper. If the double trailer works to stack boats (I have not seen one of these trailers, but I hear they are the bomb) this would be great where dry storage is concerned. I also believe the Viper fleet is growing quickly and will continue to do so. Viper is also a great value for the money.

Oh well. Best of luck to you.

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appreciate all the feedback on boats folks

 

all the stats on what fleet size are is exactly what I need. Keep them coming if there is anything else out there. Any idea on size and growth of regional events out there?

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here we go again.....

 

I was going to post something but....

 

What is needed here is real information. Does anyone know which group(s) is the best prospect for recruitment.

 

Hey, let's call Mr. Capron, he'll know.

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here we go again.....

 

I was going to post something but....

 

What is needed here is real information. Does anyone know which group(s) is the best prospect for recruitment.

 

Hey, let's call Mr. Capron, he'll know.

 

He would recommend we buy Solings.

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American Yacht Club bought (once again, I believe) 4 Rondar K6's. I have no idea what's up on this club.

 

 

American Y.C. has (I believe) 18 K6's, making it the largest fleet of 20ft sportboats at any individual club (in the U.S.)- as far as I know.

 

Shit, 18 !! that's cool. How progressive is that for a Yacht Club. F'n amazing.

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American Yacht Club bought (once again, I believe) 4 Rondar K6's. I have no idea what's up on this club.

 

 

American Y.C. has (I believe) 18 K6's, making it the largest fleet of 20ft sportboats at any individual club (in the U.S.)- as far as I know.

 

Most of them are privately owned though.

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I doubt that there is any real demographic data available for any of the classes.

 

I think you look to the features of the boat and match their appeal to your target recruiting market -young families? ex-dinghy sailors? etc.

 

Club owned Ideal 18's. RYC??

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I doubt that there is any real demographic data available for any of the classes.

 

I think you look to the features of the boat and match their appeal to your target recruiting market -young families? ex-dinghy sailors? etc.

 

Club owned Ideal 18's. RYC??

 

 

Elliott 6 already selected for the next olympics

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I've been a member at a club with Ideal 18's..., and I think these are great programs. they get a huge amount of use, for everything from adult instruction, to match/team racing, to just going out for a leisurely sail. they can easily be sailed single-handed, and it's a great for for a parent to take out a little kid.

 

If i were setting up a club program, as you are contemplating, I would look for a boat that had some of the same features:

 

I think a two-person boat would succeed over a three-person boat in a club-owned program. If the Ideal-18 were a 3-person boat, I don't think those programs would be nearly as successful.

 

I would also look for a boat that can be pretty easily single-handed, making it a easy for one of the two to be a novice.

 

I would choose as small a boat as possible.

 

Top me, that's the K6...

 

I don't own one, but I have sailed one.

 

I know you wanted demographics, not an argument over which boat, but there is no way that this thread won't turn into a Viper love-fest, so I just thought I get a different opinion on the record.

 

The Viper is also a great boat - but it's bigger, and not my pick of the bunch - haven't seen the melges.

 

I posted my "review" in another thread: eastern LIS demo thread

 

here it is again:

 

My understanding is that the optimum crew weights of the Viper and the K6 are not SO far apart. A fundamental question is if you want a 2 person boat that can be sailed by 3, or a 3 person boat that can be sailed by 2-4.

 

I'm not a K6 owner, but I have sailed the boat a few times. Never sailed a Viper.

 

This description would appear to make the Viper more versatile - it can be sailed by 2,3, or 4 people, where as the K6 is said to be limited to a max of 3.

 

But, what this leaves out, is that the K6 is very easily single-handed. With the self-tacking jib, the boat is easy for one person to take out just for a fun sail. No, you couldn't race it single handed, but I don't imagine the Viper gets raced with 4 very often either. I am sure you could single-hand a Viper too, but the K6 is just the right size.

 

So we have a 2 person boat that can be sailed by 1, 2, or 3, vs. 3 person boat that can be sailed by 2,3, or 4 - making it even in terms of the versatility.

 

My other comment is that The K6 - I guess because of its narrow beam - is an incredibly pleasurable boat to drive. It has a wonderful, even "refined", feel to the helm that is hard to describe. Even in the lightest of breezes, again - because of the narrow beam, it heels over upwind just the right amount, cutting through small chop, and just tracking along in an immensely satisfying way It's almost like (dare I say it...?) a meter boat - and I mean that in a good way! Anyone who has sailed, say, a 6 or 8 meter, will know what I am talking about - the boat has this classic feel in light breeze, but then turns into a powered-up planing sport boat with just a few knots more breeze. That to me was the biggest surprise with this boat.

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Another consideration is being able to get juniors out sailing. If there is clearly one hurdle we see to getting more people involved with our 20' sportboat fleet, it is that many eligible members or prospective members have kids that are double booked all summer long with various programs. Finding a boat that can race with juniors and get them involved will create a larger target audience. People want to spend time with their family, and if their kids are excited to spend an afternoon with Dad and/or Mom in a cool boat that goes fast, you have a larger target audience.

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Another consideration is being able to get juniors out sailing. If there is clearly one hurdle we see to getting more people involved with our 20' sportboat fleet, it is that many eligible members or prospective members have kids that are double booked all summer long with various programs. Finding a boat that can race with juniors and get them involved will create a larger target audience. People want to spend time with their family, and if their kids are excited to spend an afternoon with Dad and/or Mom in a cool boat that goes fast, you have a larger target audience.

 

Please feel free to contact me if you want to learn more about the K6 fleet and racing program at American YC. We do have 18 boats, most of which are owned in partnerships, and the program is focused on high quality local racing that is time efficient. Our group does not want to have to pack up their boats, drive somewhere and take up a whole weekend to get good racing. We also actively involve juniors and women and have a boat available just for the use of junior members. The K6 has fit well with this approach from a cost, performance, and crew versatility standpoint. And the boat and the program have attracted new members to the Club. We would be happy to answer your questions or have you down for some racing so you could see what we are up to firsthand. More details and the 2009 schedule are at www.rsk6usa.com

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Schooner man has built up the sheet he posted earlier - very good place to start. Club or local potential member characteristics will play a large role along with the boat facility / storage - etc. Each of the designs listed have advantages and dis advantages and pending the nature of the members and the location you'll find that there is probably only one good match to the right needs etc.

 

Don't assume that all of the boats are the same due to their size each one is quite different.

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Your options....

 

Viper 640, Melges 20, Rondar K6, Ultimate 20, Laser SB3, Rocket 22, Shaw 650 and Open 5.70.

 

Not sure where you are.

 

Only established fleets in the USA are Ultimate 20 (227 boats) and Viper 640 (105 boats)

 

Here's the pricing info except for the K6.

 

post-23955-1236044921_thumb.jpg

 

The Melges 20 is just getting started. The Shaw 650 is perhaps many months away from real production. The Open 5.7 is now built in the USA but has only one fleet, in SoCal. The Laser SB3 is trying to wedge in but seem unlikely. Rocket 22 is a low production boat but very nice.

 

Two clubs that I know of have purchased fleets.

 

Bayview Yacht Club in Detroit bought (I believe) 6 Ultimate 20's. This is a hugely successful program with a wide variety of racing from Match through fleet and ODCA.

 

American Yacht Club bought (once again, I believe) 4 Rondar K6's. I have no idea what's up on this club.

 

San Diego YC just took a look/see at buying some Ultimate 20's. No word yet.

 

FYI, since you left the SB3 out, I figured I'd pass along new fleet (not an established fleet looking for a group buy) pricing as I last saw it. 3 boats with motor mount, trailer, sails, and electronics: $31,500 FOB Portsmouth, RI. The same package for 6 boats is $29,250. Don't hold me to that being current, but it is pretty recent.

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I've been a member at a club with Ideal 18's..., and I think these are great programs. they get a huge amount of use, for everything from adult instruction, to match/team racing, to just going out for a leisurely sail. they can easily be sailed single-handed, and it's a great for for a parent to take out a little kid.

 

If i were setting up a club program, as you are contemplating, I would look for a boat that had some of the same features:

 

I think a two-person boat would succeed over a three-person boat in a club-owned program. If the Ideal-18 were a 3-person boat, I don't think those programs would be nearly as successful.

 

I would also look for a boat that can be pretty easily single-handed, making it a easy for one of the two to be a novice.

 

I would choose as small a boat as possible.

 

Top me, that's the K6...

 

I don't own one, but I have sailed one.

 

I know you wanted demographics, not an argument over which boat, but there is no way that this thread won't turn into a Viper love-fest, so I just thought I get a different opinion on the record.

 

The Viper is also a great boat - but it's bigger, and not my pick of the bunch - haven't seen the melges.

 

I posted my "review" in another thread: eastern LIS demo thread

 

here it is again:

 

My understanding is that the optimum crew weights of the Viper and the K6 are not SO far apart. A fundamental question is if you want a 2 person boat that can be sailed by 3, or a 3 person boat that can be sailed by 2-4.

 

I'm not a K6 owner, but I have sailed the boat a few times. Never sailed a Viper.

 

This description would appear to make the Viper more versatile - it can be sailed by 2,3, or 4 people, where as the K6 is said to be limited to a max of 3.

 

But, what this leaves out, is that the K6 is very easily single-handed. With the self-tacking jib, the boat is easy for one person to take out just for a fun sail. No, you couldn't race it single handed, but I don't imagine the Viper gets raced with 4 very often either. I am sure you could single-hand a Viper too, but the K6 is just the right size.

 

So we have a 2 person boat that can be sailed by 1, 2, or 3, vs. 3 person boat that can be sailed by 2,3, or 4 - making it even in terms of the versatility.

 

My other comment is that The K6 - I guess because of its narrow beam - is an incredibly pleasurable boat to drive. It has a wonderful, even "refined", feel to the helm that is hard to describe. Even in the lightest of breezes, again - because of the narrow beam, it heels over upwind just the right amount, cutting through small chop, and just tracking along in an immensely satisfying way It's almost like (dare I say it...?) a meter boat - and I mean that in a good way! Anyone who has sailed, say, a 6 or 8 meter, will know what I am talking about - the boat has this classic feel in light breeze, but then turns into a powered-up planing sport boat with just a few knots more breeze. That to me was the biggest surprise with this boat.

 

The Viper is easily double-handed but has the advantage that you have enough room for a couple + an instructor - a huge plus for this use of the boat

 

The K6 has way too many strings to pull for a club boat. KISS

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Great spreadsheet but why no SB3? I believe an SB3 is around 35k / 32k fleet deal but I am not certain. The rest seem accurate. Another interesting cost to track would be sail prices and class rules on sails.

 

Your options....

 

Viper 640, Melges 20, Rondar K6, Ultimate 20, Laser SB3, Rocket 22, Shaw 650 and Open 5.70.

 

Not sure where you are.

 

Only established fleets in the USA are Ultimate 20 (227 boats) and Viper 640 (105 boats)

 

Here's the pricing info except for the K6.

 

post-23955-1236044921_thumb.jpg

 

The Melges 20 is just getting started. The Shaw 650 is perhaps many months away from real production. The Open 5.7 is now built in the USA but has only one fleet, in SoCal. The Laser SB3 is trying to wedge in but seem unlikely. Rocket 22 is a low production boat but very nice.

 

Two clubs that I know of have purchased fleets.

 

Bayview Yacht Club in Detroit bought (I believe) 6 Ultimate 20's. This is a hugely successful program with a wide variety of racing from Match through fleet and ODCA.

 

American Yacht Club bought (once again, I believe) 4 Rondar K6's. I have no idea what's up on this club.

 

San Diego YC just took a look/see at buying some Ultimate 20's. No word yet.

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The Melges 20 sails are included in those prices.

Great spreadsheet but why no SB3? I believe an SB3 is around 35k / 32k fleet deal but I am not certain. The rest seem accurate. Another interesting cost to track would be sail prices and class rules on sails.

 

Your options....

 

Viper 640, Melges 20, Rondar K6, Ultimate 20, Laser SB3, Rocket 22, Shaw 650 and Open 5.70.

 

Not sure where you are.

 

Only established fleets in the USA are Ultimate 20 (227 boats) and Viper 640 (105 boats)

 

Here's the pricing info except for the K6.

 

post-23955-1236044921_thumb.jpg

 

The Melges 20 is just getting started. The Shaw 650 is perhaps many months away from real production. The Open 5.7 is now built in the USA but has only one fleet, in SoCal. The Laser SB3 is trying to wedge in but seem unlikely. Rocket 22 is a low production boat but very nice.

 

Two clubs that I know of have purchased fleets.

 

Bayview Yacht Club in Detroit bought (I believe) 6 Ultimate 20's. This is a hugely successful program with a wide variety of racing from Match through fleet and ODCA.

 

American Yacht Club bought (once again, I believe) 4 Rondar K6's. I have no idea what's up on this club.

 

San Diego YC just took a look/see at buying some Ultimate 20's. No word yet.

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The viper 640 is a sweet ride and a

kick in the nutsack downwind is a bit of a breeze.

 

However, You really need to look at Alan Andrew's

Guv's Cup 21. Total Eye Candy.

post-7006-1236116091_thumb.jpg

 

Stout but built to go in the light stuff.

post-7006-1236116099.jpg

 

There's a couple of fleets around the country

(Newport and Ohio-I think) already and

a few are already built and avialable - I think.

post-7006-1236116108.jpg

Link:

http://andrewsyacht.com/deshome.htm

post-7006-1236116120_thumb.png

post-7006-1236116114_thumb.png

Won't be the cheapest but not an overpriced rip!

These puppies were built for match racing and

so scantlings should be able to resist newbies,

dock scrapes and "incidental contact." :o:lol::lol:

 

And yes, they can add a sprit if needed.

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I know you wanted demographics, not an argument over which boat, but there is no way that this thread won't turn into a Viper love-fest, so I just thought I get a different opinion on the record.

 

 

I posted my "review" in another thread: eastern LIS demo thread

 

You gotta read any post by 7070 with respect and interest. I just finished ploughing through the US Sailing/Redress thread and the 7070 posts stood out as a a breath of sanity and pragmatic wisdom.

 

We don't disagree on the K6, loverly little boat. I prefer the Viper and he prefers the K6.

 

Demographics :-

 

Clubs

At the Eastern Long Island Sound demo which 7070 refers to, the combined clubs of Fishers Island Sound demo'd the Melges 20, the Laser SB3, The J80, the RS-K6, the Open 5.70 and the Viper 640. They have subsequently selected the Viper as suiting their particular needs.

At Indian Harbor YC and Stamford YC, the clubs demo'd the Laser SB3, The RS-K6 and the Viper. They subsequently selected the Viper.

At Lake Lanier Sailing Club, the group demo'd the Laser SB3, the Open 5.70 and the Viper and has started a fleet of Vipers,

At Savannah YC, a group demo'd that mother of all 20' sportsboats, the greyhound of the sea - the Rhodes 19-, and the E scow and the Viper. They have a fledgling Viper fleet.

At Coral Reef Yacht Club on Biscayne Bay a few members tried and compared the Laser SB3, The Melges 20 and the Viper. They have purchased 3 Vipers and hope to build a fleet.

The Viper has other fleets in Marblehead, Texas, Arizona, Canada + many boats that race PHRF locally and travel to larger regattas.

 

Regattas

Here is a list of forthcoming Viper regattas http://www.viper640.org/calendar/all-events . There is a strong North East circuit, South East Circuit and Texas circuit. There is participation in some fun regattas on the West Coast and we expect that to grow with an enthusiastic new Rondar agent for the West Coast.

There are 35 Vipers registered so far for Charleston Race Week. We are hosting the Viper North Americans on Long Island Sound in September and expect over 40 Vipers for that event.

 

Growth

The new Class Association was born 4 years ago. Three years ago, we had less than 20 boats on our roster, we now have 111. The mission of the Viper Class Association is to support the growth of a Fast, Easy, Fun and Economically Affordable sportsboat for the North American one design sailing community. Sorry about the love fest. There is a lot of energy and enthusiasm in the class. I believe it is currently the fastest growing smaller sportsboat class in NA.

 

That's the demographics.

 

Lots of other reason why we think the Viper has broad appeal.....but that's another post.

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Guest One of Five
These are crappy times to be a yacht club. Recruiting new members is a bitch -- the pool is much smaller.

 

My contention is that the face of sailing is changing and what real growth there is is in the 20 foot sportboat market. What I'm doing is putting together a proposal -- that has a ton of backing from certain flag officers -- that if the club were to pony up for a fleet of 4-6 boats -- and we wrapped it with the right marketing activities -- that fleet could become a huge marketing asset. In fact we have prior history -- a decade ago we bought a fleet of Ideal 18s which ended up being directly attributable to 35 new members. The prob is that the Ideal is obsolete as a marketing asset -- though nothing intrinsically wrong with it (please don't start, I was biting my lip)

 

What I need help with are the "facts" -- numbers about demographic, sales figures, etc. to build a case that the 20footers are the way to go.

 

What I'm not doing (yet) is picking boats. That is next.

 

Any help is mucho appreciated.

 

where are you?

 

This should probably factor into it.I'd think you'd want the opportunity to have some inter-club travel regattas.

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hey viper640 - thanks for the compliment - i'll take anything i can get!

 

i eventually gave up on that redress thread...

 

anyway, i may have been a bit too definitive in my assessment of which 20fter is the one for me - as i said, i haven't sailed a Viper.

 

What I was trying to say, was that, all things being equal, i would probably prefer something that can be raced with two, rather than something that might need three. I'm kind of light, so i would probably be someone needing three.

 

all of the boats are a great addition to the new england sailing scene, and i am most definitely not saying that in any absolute, or objective sense, one is better than another.

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However, You really need to look at Alan Andrew's

Guv's Cup 21. Total Eye Candy.

 

Having tried the gov cup - everything was great except the spinnaker cut. gross. hopefully the sails were just blown out.

 

also, hiking is impossible, and once the breeze is up to 8 its like balancing on a windy fence without anything to hold on to.

 

otherwise a beauty of a boat. had fun, we'd never driven anything but j22s before, but we did beat texas. i enjoyed the boat overall.

 

buttercupfixed.jpg

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hey viper640 - thanks for the compliment - i'll take anything i can get!

 

i eventually gave up on that redress thread...

 

anyway, i may have been a bit too definitive in my assessment of which 20fter is the one for me - as i said, i haven't sailed a Viper.

 

What I was trying to say, was that, all things being equal, i would probably prefer something that can be raced with two, rather than something that might need three. I'm kind of light, so i would probably be someone needing three.

 

all of the boats are a great addition to the new england sailing scene, and i am most definitely not saying that in any absolute, or objective sense, one is better than another.

 

Which case you'll want to look at the less powered up options 5.70 being on the low end. Of the list here the U20 is probably the 2nd easiest to sail short handed - #3 would be the viper no so much for its lack of power but for the open and easily operated systems -- M20 and SB3 are not boats I'd want to single or short hand in anything but a drifter for obvious reasons.

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anyway, i may have been a bit too definitive in my assessment of which 20fter is the one for me - as i said, i haven't sailed a Viper.

 

What I was trying to say, was that, all things being equal, i would probably prefer something that can be raced with two, rather than something that might need three. I'm kind of light, so i would probably be someone needing three.

 

.

 

Which case you'll want to look at the less powered up options 5.70 being on the low end. Of the list here the U20 is probably the 2nd easiest to sail short handed - #3 would be the viper no so much for its lack of power but for the open and easily operated systems -- M20 and SB3 are not boats I'd want to single or short hand in anything but a drifter for obvious reasons.

 

The K6 (which is the benchmark that 7070 was using) is better organized for sailing double handed sailing than 5.70 and U20. It is a two person boat. It is occasionaly raced with three but only to get the extra weight, rather than for boat handling.

Of course I would argue that Viper is # 2 for shorthanded sailing because of the bow launch and retrieve spinnaker system compared to the others but each to his or her own poison. 7070 is correct, the ideal number to race a Viper at a competitive regatta is three. We race on weds evenings with two, but for any serious event we race with three.

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The Viper is easily double-handed but has the advantage that you have enough room for a couple + an instructor - a huge plus for this use of the boat

 

The K6 has way too many strings to pull for a club boat. KISS

 

I don't know what K6 you were sailing but the ones I have sailed have no more "strings" then any other boat. If you are refering to the jib halyard yes you do adjust that to adjust mast bend. But then again you don't have a back stay so you are "string" neutural.

 

Maybe you are refering to the "string" that you pull to douse the chute into its launcher. I will take that string any day. By far one of the easiest boat to raise and douse the chute.

 

Other then those two mentioned "strings", which many boats have, the K6 has no more then any other boat.

 

So you can toss the "string" argument out.

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American Yacht Club bought (once again, I believe) 4 Rondar K6's. I have no idea what's up on this club.

 

 

American Y.C. has (I believe) 18 K6's, making it the largest fleet of 20ft sportboats at any individual club (in the U.S.)- as far as I know.

 

Most of them are privately owned though.

 

Oh man Christian...you popped my bubble. :lol: Here I was thinking that the Club had made a major investment in their membership. Fuckin' yacht clubs....burn em' ;)

 

 

 

Great spreadsheet but why no SB3? I believe an SB3 is around 35k / 32k fleet deal but I am not certain. The rest seem accurate. Another interesting cost to track would be sail prices and class rules on sails.

 

 

LS, you get me reliable (verifiable) data on the SB3 for pricing and fleet buy, I'll add it to the spreadsheet. I've sent LP numerous requests with no reply.

 

As I have the O5.7 on the sheet, I'll add the K6 too when I get the fleet pricing.

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However, You really need to look at Alan Andrew's

Guv's Cup 21. Total Eye Candy.

 

Having tried the gov cup - everything was great except the spinnaker cut. gross. hopefully the sails were just blown out.

 

also, hiking is impossible, and once the breeze is up to 8 its like balancing on a windy fence without anything to hold on to.

 

otherwise a beauty of a boat. had fun, we'd never driven anything but j22s before, but we did beat texas. i enjoyed the boat overall.

 

buttercupfixed.jpg

Nice photo! You can add stantions and lifelines to assist in hiking and it wouldn't hurt your insurance rates either.

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However, You really need to look at Alan Andrew's

Guv's Cup 21. Total Eye Candy.

 

Having tried the gov cup - everything was great except the spinnaker cut. gross. hopefully the sails were just blown out.

 

also, hiking is impossible, and once the breeze is up to 8 its like balancing on a windy fence without anything to hold on to.

 

otherwise a beauty of a boat. had fun, we'd never driven anything but j22s before, but we did beat texas. i enjoyed the boat overall.

 

buttercupfixed.jpg

Nice photo! You can add stantions and lifelines to assist in hiking and it wouldn't hurt your insurance rates either.

 

Lifelines? What are you smoking? Hiking straps is all that is needed and it is a hell of a lot more comfortable and effective to hang off lifelines as wet laundry.

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LS, you get me reliable (verifiable) data on the SB3 for pricing and fleet buy, I'll add it to the spreadsheet. I've sent LP numerous requests with no reply.

 

As I have the O5.7 on the sheet, I'll add the K6 too when I get the fleet pricing.

 

I'm not sure who you've been talking to, but you can email, scott.diamond@laserperformance.com, boats@madisonboathouse.com, or chris.souza@laserperformance.com to verify those numbers.

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LS, you get me reliable (verifiable) data on the SB3 for pricing and fleet buy, I'll add it to the spreadsheet. I've sent LP numerous requests with no reply.

 

As I have the O5.7 on the sheet, I'll add the K6 too when I get the fleet pricing.

 

I'm not sure who you've been talking to, but you can email, scott.diamond@laserperformance.com, boats@madisonboathouse.com, or chris.souza@laserperformance.com to verify those numbers.

 

Thanks for the lead.

 

Just sent Scott and Chris a request.

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LS, you get me reliable (verifiable) data on the SB3 for pricing and fleet buy, I'll add it to the spreadsheet. I've sent LP numerous requests with no reply.

 

As I have the O5.7 on the sheet, I'll add the K6 too when I get the fleet pricing.

 

I'm not sure who you've been talking to, but you can email, scott.diamond@laserperformance.com, boats@madisonboathouse.com, or chris.souza@laserperformance.com to verify those numbers.

 

Thanks for the lead.

 

Just sent Scott and Chris a request.

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I want to thank everyone for the comments. I was able to pick a lot of facts out of the pile to build a compelling presentation.

 

My part in this gig was to sell the concept and build up a P&L for the project. Basically get the board to agree to go ahead and allocate the cash to the program. Once I get the yeah/nay I will turn it to a selection committee to select the boat (which I will avoid being part of because I would rather put two in the back of my own head than try and justify that decision)

 

The reason I didn't go forth recommending a specific boat was because the entire conversation with the board would end up "why do you want that one...I heard about a guy in Alaska who hit ian iceberg in one and sank"....and then approval would be dependent on boat selection-- which would end up a black hole. This way I keep the conversation about the fleet as a "marketing asset" -- xx number of members over xx years -- and not get distracted.

 

We will see how it goes and I will keep you all posted.

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As requested, here's the spreadsheet with the SB3.

 

Just sent Rondar an email. They are making some minor mods to the K6 for the American market. He'll send me that info later and I will update this sheet then.

 

post-23955-1236216467_thumb.jpg

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cool, this does look accurate. It also does make the Viper and Open look appealing from a pure financial perspective. The covers and extras do add up quickly with the other boats. Can you "confirm" that all of this is included at that price? If so that is fairly impressive to be honest.

 

 

it

As requested, here's the spreadsheet with the SB3.

 

Just sent Rondar an email. They are making some minor mods to the K6 for the American market. He'll send me that info later and I will update this sheet then.

 

post-23955-1236216467_thumb.jpg

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What's really is impressive is what the Rocket is selling for - it is just SO MUCH boat for the money.

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As requested, here's the spreadsheet with the SB3.

 

Just sent Rondar an email. They are making some minor mods to the K6 for the American market. He'll send me that info later and I will update this sheet then.

 

post-23955-1236216467_thumb.jpg

 

Couple of updates for the Melges --- the sail price is for 3DL North Sails - I have a quote for Dacron main, kevlar jib, NorLon A-kite for $4100 from top-3 brand.

 

Top cover is $665, keel lifter is $700.

 

WWing

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buttercupfixed.jpg

Nice photo! You can add stantions and lifelines to assist in hiking and it wouldn't hurt your insurance rates either.

 

Photo credit to longpre photos of newport beach. can't beat free regatta photos!

 

www.longprephotos.com

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I noticed the San Diego Yacht Club mentioned in this thread. A few details: The San Diego Yacht Club ran a very successful 16 week long Tuesday night match race program last summer. The program was an unqualified success due to the excellent organization, support of the club and most important, remarkable enthusiasm from all of the participants. You couldn't get folks to go home! Equipment was not particularly important. We used four J/World J/80s and two member owned J/24s with a round robin program that allowed 8 to 10 teams share the boats between matches. We even worked in an umpire training program and have several new certified umpires as a direct result. We did try the U20s one week. They were probably too fast to be good match race boats. The organizers of the match race series is planning on continuing the program this summer and is looking at possibly purchasing a dedicated fleet primarily for match racing but may be used by club members in some other local regattas. The group is looking at Gov Cup 21s, J/22s as well as some other possibilities.

 

Everyone loves to discuss the merits of one boat over another. This smacks of field of dreams marketing. How about this: Ask your members what they want to do. See if there is enthusiasm for a club owned fleet of anything. Who's going to pay and how much. Partnerships on each boat, perhaps? Or a collective ownership of a fleet? These things all cost about $30-$40K each plus sails so a budget is pretty easy to create. Who's going to pay for replacement sails? How often? Who does maintenance? Is there a budget for all of this? When you come up with this in a plan, get the support of a critical mass of members, then you are in a position to discuss what boats to buy.

 

Just my .02.

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I think you need to look at the demographics of your target "market" - are you trying to get youngsters who've never sailed before, a boat for training, people who sailed dinghies but have outgrown them, people who sailed big boats but are looking to downsize to cut cost/time, baby bomers who want something fun but not too physical to sail.

 

If you can define your primary, secondary and tertiary markets you can then asses the boats on the basis of best fit rather than best bang for the buck.

 

One suggestion is to create a table with weighted criteria. e.g. Price has a weighting of 10, youth sailing ability has weighting of 3, hiking 2, non-hiking 7, Asymetric Spin 8, Conventional Spin 2 etc

 

Then look at the criteria that may make make your decision: lowest price, most fleets nationally, most fleets internationally, major manufacturer support etc. Then you can look at performance criteria - the table here might help.

 

My feeling is that if you're trying to get people involved in sailing it's not going to work if the boats are out being sailed single-handed (you're trying to promote sailing as a social activity!), are too high performance (for Mr/Mrs average), too much hard work (to rig, sail, maintain, de-rig), too hard to crew (too many, too skinny, too fit) then you'll loose your market within a season. This may not please the hot-shots but that's probably not who you're aiming for.

 

Hope this helps

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Couple of updates for the Melges --- the sail price is for 3DL North Sails - I have a quote for Dacron main, kevlar jib, NorLon A-kite for $4100 from top-3 brand.

 

 

WWing

 

 

FWIW. The Viper 640 class rules do not require an engine and 90% of owners dont bother. The trailer and dolly is kinda double counted in the spread sheet. You either own just a trailer or you own a dolly and share the cost of a double trailer kit. Bottom line is that you can be race ready in a Viper for $30k and you can be race ready and move 2 Vipers to regattas + mount a motor for Schooners price .

 

The sails price in Viper is based on pentax main. With a carbon rig and no backstay, it is nice to have a "Mylar+fibres" sail because you will be using cunning ham, vang and mainsheet to control mast and you might find dacron a bit stretchy. North's had a dacron version of the mainsail for the Viper last year and it looked very nice and went well but they have dropped it in favor of pentax for longevity.

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I don't have much to add on what type of boat to get, we have U20's at Bayview that we got 7 or 8 years ago. U20 is a good boat but if you're getting a club boat program off the ground today there are other options you should consider.

 

I'd classify BYC's club boat program as a success, the boats are used by many members for many things like weeknight racing, teaching adult sailing, international match racing (as well as club and regional level), a class at the NOODS, Womens Regatta and Clinic, Frostbite Series and one off club races like the College Alumni Regatta.

 

I'm not as involved in my club boat program because I have an Express, but I'm impressed with how our club boat members volunteer and get behind the program. That's the biggest key right there, our club boat program has been successful because of people giving their time. There will always naysayers to such a program, but you can help mute them if you are transparent, mobilize large groups of members to use and maintain the boats and get the boats out in front of your club 4 or 5 days a week in the summer. Your fork and knife members don't have a lot of ammo against a club boat program if they see them sailing by the club every time they have prime rib.

 

Finally your biggest demographic within the club to help get and keep this off the ground are the 20 and 30 somethings. Right now I'm sure it's difficult for many in that group to buy their own boat. Plus us pups are eager and willing to take on responsibility in programs like these to have access to our own little fleet.

 

Good luck and keep us posted on the progress.

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the spreadshet could use a residual value at 5 yrs, weighted with the probability that the 1D aspect doesn't die...

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American Yacht Club bought (once again, I believe) 4 Rondar K6's. I have no idea what's up on this club.

American Y.C. has (I believe) 18 K6's, making it the largest fleet of 20ft sportboats at any individual club (in the U.S.)- as far as I know.

Just about every YC in WI has several fleets of sportboats with mare participation than that.

They are called Scows.

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Couple of updates for the Melges --- the sail price is for 3DL North Sails - I have a quote for Dacron main, kevlar jib, NorLon A-kite for $4100 from top-3 brand.

 

Top cover is $665, keel lifter is $700.

 

WWing

 

Thanks WWing.

 

I've updated the sheet with those prices. I'm leaving in the Norths as we all know, if 2 guys have them, everyone has them. North lofts are largely the reps for the boat so they are likely to be the sailmaker of choice.

 

 

FWIW. The Viper 640 class rules do not require an engine and 90% of owners dont bother. The trailer and dolly is kinda double counted in the spread sheet. You either own just a trailer or you own a dolly and share the cost of a double trailer kit. Bottom line is that you can be race ready in a Viper for $30k and you can be race ready and move 2 Vipers to regattas + mount a motor for Schooners price .

 

The sails price in Viper is based on pentax main. With a carbon rig and no backstay, it is nice to have a "Mylar+fibres" sail because you will be using cunning ham, vang and mainsheet to control mast and you might find dacron a bit stretchy. North's had a dacron version of the mainsail for the Viper last year and it looked very nice and went well but they have dropped it in favor of pentax for longevity.

 

For clarity.

 

I've show some prices in the spreadsheet that are not calculated into the costs. The 2 boat trailer options is one of those. It's simply shown to demonstrate that there are some significant cost savings in operation on some boats. Obviously towing two boats at a time to a race is MUCH more cost effective.

 

To keep this an 'apples to apples' comparison, and thus more useful, I am calculating:

 

Boat

Sails

Top Cover (every sporty should have one of these and it's included on some)

Trailer

Keel Hoist (really useful...LOL)

Engine Bracket (required by some classes)

 

Hope this clears up any confusion.

 

I heard back from Rondar and have added the K6 to the sheet.

 

post-23955-1236351868_thumb.jpg

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American Yacht Club bought (once again, I believe) 4 Rondar K6's. I have no idea what's up on this club.

American Y.C. has (I believe) 18 K6's, making it the largest fleet of 20ft sportboats at any individual club (in the U.S.)- as far as I know.

Just about every YC in WI has several fleets of sportboats with mare participation than that.

They are called Scows.

 

scows are dinghy's..., aren't they?

 

i assume these guys are looking for something with a keel.

 

anyway, i like scows - never sailed on one though.

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My (now former) club decided in the fall that sailing and 20-25 foot boats in general were not where they wanted to be. The club had a great sailing tradition but is now pretty much a powerboat marina for 30+ foot fiberglass seaborne R/V's. Out the door I went. I dont know about other clubs, but the cost of being in my (now)marina was doubled within a few years and still apparantly not enough to make budget ends meet. I was doing recruitment with a team of two or three others and we forced the board to accept that lowing dues for certain membesrhip classes would dramatically increase new members (Econ 101). We wrote 41 new members but the old school guys could not abide anyone paying any less than they were, so they killed the program. Then the economy turned and now (it appears from scuttle) that they are bleeding members.

 

Id be surprised if any club would want to swallow a coupla hundred G investment right now on an if come basis, but good luck with that !

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OK, I am going to add my 2¢ to this...... (because that's about all I have now days..)

 

You might say this is anarchy within anarchy.....

 

While I find the sport boats to be an intriguing mix of speed and design, I cannot imagine spending $35,000 on a one design keel boat and trying to build a fleet of them at any club. To be sure, these boats are very sexy, but for that kind of money, I would at least like to be able to have enough creature-comforts to go down below and take a wee between races.

 

To me, this is where our sport has begun to take a turn for the worse. These boats are high powered, high priced, ego trips. We should be looking for ways to get people into the sport more easily and cost effectively.

 

If you're looking for speed, get a catamaran. If you don't like cats but are looking for good competition, there are plenty of traditional one design classes that have very active racing fleets and cost a fraction of the amount. For less than $20,000, you can buy a brand new Lightning, Thistle, or other classical one-design boat. And of course, you cannot beat the experience of sailing a Laser in 25 knots.

 

Granted I'm a pond-sailor, but some of the ponds I sail on are quite large (great lakes). In a major regatta, I would rather be part of a fleet of 30 or 40 boats at the start, then to be a part of the few that had the funds to purchase the latest and greatest design.

 

I'm not against the sport boats, I just think we need some common sense. Besides, it's about the sailor, not the boat.

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Quick observation from a friend who just sent this to me, without knowing that I was aware.

 

Why are the boats listed in "this order" and not alphabetical order? ;-)

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Quick observation from a friend who just sent this to me, without knowing that I was aware.

 

Why are the boats listed in "this order" and not alphabetical order? ;-)

 

Bring out the fucking tin foil hats - conspiracy theory on the way

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That's right, it was prepared by the Council for Advancement of American Sport-boating, which is actually a subsidiary of Rondar Raceboats.

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Quick observation from a friend who just sent this to me, without knowing that I was aware.

 

Why are the boats listed in "this order" and not alphabetical order? ;-)

 

Because I get hot sex from a saucy english lass :P

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I think reverse alpha looks best....

 

Viper 640

Ultimate 20

Shaw 650

Rocket 22

Open 5.7

Melges 20

Laser SB3

K6

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Okay, first we assign each a 3 digit numerical code (that'll take about a month to settle on), then we use a random number generator, then....

 

and of course the whole thing will have to be independently audited.

 

Should have a random order for the spreadsheet settled by the end of Q3, 2012.

 

:rolleyes:

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One solution to transporting your fleet is to stick them on a car trailer - with the auto industry in the can there's got to be loads of them around.

See SB3 transport to Lake Garda

 

They're not "high powered ego trips" they're fun! The point of using light boats with a large sail area and a lump of lead to keep it upright is that it give you the thrills without the risk of swimming that a dinghy provides (especially sailing a Laser in 25 Knots). If you want a "wee between races" in a Sportsboat, go over the side or in the bucket like everyone esle - just as you would in your dinghy!

 

It's becoming increasingly obvious it's about the boat and not the sailor - most classes are loosing numbers and few can afford to the upkeep and maintenance of big boats - but one of the few areas of growth in the past few years has been in the 20" sportsboat classes (as per the original post).

 

The question is why and what has made some boats sell better than others?

My thoughts

- Lifting keels sell better than fixed keels (easier to store, cheaper & faster to launch/retrieve, easier to transport)

- Asymetric sell better than trad spin (easier to handle and more fun)

- Fibreglass sell better than carbon hull (trailing edge always does better than bleeding edge)

- One design sell better than open design (many people who move into these boats are fed up with trying to compete against those with open cheque books and are trying to avoid continuous costs)

- No/little-hiking sells better than hard hiking (the hot-shot sportsboat is NOT the mainstream market - most of the buyers have been through their dinghy phase).

- Open deck sell better than covered cockpits (all that extra weight reduces the fun and adds to the cost)

 

The above also depends on what you're trying to achieve - if you want to buy a fleet and have them crewed by (ab)users who will likely trash them in a few years then buy the boats to appeal to the 20-30yo. If you want owners to buy into the fleet and look after their investment then go for something less extreme but attractive to a wider age/fitness range.

 

My $02

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not an intentional thread-jacking. . . but it might be relevant for others.

 

Currently in the early phases of (potentially) building on a new piece of property. I have the opportunity to put up the "extra garage" for the storage of all the toys (boats, kiteboarding stuff, the motorcycle etc). I am sure a 20 foot sport boat is someplace in my future. Does anyone know the following for any of the boats in the list?

 

Smallest garage door each boat would fit through?

total internal length needed for the boat, on trailer, withOUT mast?

 

Also curious about the melges 24 dimensions while we are at it. (yes, I know it is 24 feet, but how far out does the trailer tongue stick from the front of the boat).

 

I live near boston, so I am leaning towards the viper, however, that will be several years out. I would just hate to build the extra garage . . . and then end up one foot short of fitting a future boat into year round storage.

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I think reverse alpha looks best....

 

Viper 640

Ultimate 20

Shaw 650

Rocket 22

Open 5.7

Melges 20

Laser SB3

K6

 

 

... if the alphabet ends in the letter 'R'

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I think reverse alpha looks best....

 

Viper 640

Ultimate 20

Shaw 650

Rocket 22

Open 5.7

Melges 20

Laser SB3

K6

 

 

... if the alphabet ends in the letter 'R'

 

Good one Teener :lol:

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back to the topic...

 

does anybody else wonder if most of these boats are up to the rough treatment typical of club-owned boats?

 

unless the club also has a fleet of ideal 18's or something similar..., this new fleet may well be called upon for such things as adult learn-to-sail classes, day-sailing by people of varying skill levels, team racing, match racing..., as well as the regular fleet racing.

 

this is what the ideal 18's have to do - and they typically look like crap after a few years - unless there is a _very_ active repair/maintenance operation going on.

 

and the ideal 18's were supposedly built to take this abuse... - it turned out that even though they are heavy and piggish, they aren't that well built, but that's another topic.

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for club boats you need to get a rotation of 2 or 3 new boats a year or they will all look like crap after 4 or 5 years :P

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