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Hastings

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And another one. Side view. In the VAB.

 

post-29220-1241450647_thumb.jpg

 

If I may comment on your excellent work Mo, I think that while the Y is right in this view, the bow might need to go up and the transom down (without changing anything on the shape this is, just the jack-ups). FWIW

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Small possibility that the forward aft crossbeam is not straight, but an arc, center of which is the mast base, forward beam, and then goes tangent to the aft beam, just about right for a curved traveller track.

Thats a great idea. Must play with that a bit.

Travellers don't seem to be very important on these boats. Has anyone ever seen the DZ main sheeted anywhere other than the center?

 

That is true, as most of the images I have seen show apparent wind quite forward. That will not always bee the case, during the start and in at least one of the two race courses to be contested.

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Why is the barbed wire on top of the fencing around the tents set up to keep people in?

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Why is the barbed wire on top of the fencing around the tents set up to keep people in?

(Shrug) Probably because of how tight the schedule is..

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Ok, this describes the first plan of attack on the "middle bits". We think we got the concrete pads in the VAB pretty close. I am assuming there will be lateral and diagonal beams centered on those concrete pads.

 

Green represents the beams. Blue represents the amas at 115 feet.

 

Just a top view. Will handle elevations later.

 

Others feel free to markup the bitmap if you think something else should be changed/added/removed.

 

post-29220-1241445650_thumb.jpg

 

And the PDF

 

cheeze_vab_cad.PDF

 

Small possibility that the forward aft crossbeam is not straight, but an arc, center of which is the mast base, forward beam, and then goes tangent to the aft beam, just about right for a curved traveller track.

 

My guess at the shape of CZ is quite different, something like -

 

post-19692-1241475728_thumb.jpg

 

but with diagonal braces along directly above the Y arms.

 

Fits the shed, fits all the pads, fits the Y, puts the mast step in the right position, gives a curved traveller. Now, where to put that second mast??

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Ok, this describes the first plan of attack on the "middle bits". We think we got the concrete pads in the VAB pretty close. I am assuming there will be lateral and diagonal beams centered on those concrete pads.

 

Green represents the beams. Blue represents the amas at 115 feet.

 

Just a top view. Will handle elevations later.

 

Others feel free to markup the bitmap if you think something else should be changed/added/removed.

 

post-29220-1241445650_thumb.jpg

 

And the PDF

 

cheeze_vab_cad.PDF

 

Small possibility that the forward aft crossbeam is not straight, but an arc, center of which is the mast base, forward beam, and then goes tangent to the aft beam, just about right for a curved traveller track.

 

My guess at the shape of CZ is quite different, something like -

 

post-19692-1241475728_thumb.jpg

 

but with diagonal braces along directly above the Y arms.

 

Fits the shed, fits all the pads, fits the Y, puts the mast step in the right position, gives a curved traveller. Now, where to put that second mast??

 

 

Put the second mast forward of the main mast ... it's a schooner ... :)

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Ok, this describes the first plan of attack on the "middle bits". We think we got the concrete pads in the VAB pretty close. I am assuming there will be lateral and diagonal beams centered on those concrete pads.

 

Green represents the beams. Blue represents the amas at 115 feet.

 

Just a top view. Will handle elevations later.

 

Others feel free to markup the bitmap if you think something else should be changed/added/removed.

 

post-29220-1241445650_thumb.jpg

 

And the PDF

 

cheeze_vab_cad.PDF

 

Small possibility that the forward aft crossbeam is not straight, but an arc, center of which is the mast base, forward beam, and then goes tangent to the aft beam, just about right for a curved traveller track.

 

My guess at the shape of CZ is quite different, something like -

 

post-19692-1241475728_thumb.jpg

 

but with diagonal braces along directly above the Y arms.

 

Fits the shed, fits all the pads, fits the Y, puts the mast step in the right position, gives a curved traveller. Now, where to put that second mast??

 

 

Awesome work there!!!

 

A thought on design for me is always the work areas. LeBlack, the D35's & etc have their work areas on the cat hulls as the center is usual a pod that is above water. DZ on the other hand has it's work space on the center hull of the tri.

 

Looking at what has been done so far, are there any thoughts as to where on this platform is the work space(s) going to be?

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Ok, this describes the first plan of attack on the "middle bits". We think we got the concrete pads in the VAB pretty close. I am assuming there will be lateral and diagonal beams centered on those concrete pads.

 

Green represents the beams. Blue represents the amas at 115 feet.

 

Just a top view. Will handle elevations later.

 

Others feel free to markup the bitmap if you think something else should be changed/added/removed.

 

post-29220-1241445650_thumb.jpg

 

And the PDF

 

cheeze_vab_cad.PDF

 

Small possibility that the forward aft crossbeam is not straight, but an arc, center of which is the mast base, forward beam, and then goes tangent to the aft beam, just about right for a curved traveller track.

 

My guess at the shape of CZ is quite different, something like -

 

post-19692-1241475728_thumb.jpg

 

but with diagonal braces along directly above the Y arms.

 

Fits the shed, fits all the pads, fits the Y, puts the mast step in the right position, gives a curved traveller. Now, where to put that second mast??

 

I had considered the curved forward crossbeam, but I discounted it. The reason is that they sailed LeBlack and when they did advertised it as a test bed for the Defender boat. In this case I think they were not leading folk astray. I really think they are going for the lowest mass solution they can devise.

 

I do have some questions as to how to provide a working platform here and there for secure footing when grinding, the size of the sailplan will be best controlled by guys who are not undulating on a net.

 

If CZ sported racks it would also not surprise me.

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I had considered the curved forward crossbeam, but I discounted it. The reason is that they sailed LeBlack and when they did advertised it as a test bed for the Defender boat. In this case I think they were not leading folk astray. I really think they are going for the lowest mass solution they can devise.

 

I do have some questions as to how to provide a working platform here and there for secure footing when grinding, the size of the sailplan will be best controlled by guys who are not undulating on a net.

 

If CZ sported racks it would also not surprise me.

 

Interesting trade off between being able to grind the main from both amas and the extra weight that would mean and having a central grinder platform that would save weight and complexity ...

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Ok, this describes the first plan of attack on the "middle bits". We think we got the concrete pads in the VAB pretty close. I am assuming there will be lateral and diagonal beams centered on those concrete pads.

 

Green represents the beams. Blue represents the amas at 115 feet.

 

Just a top view. Will handle elevations later.

 

Others feel free to markup the bitmap if you think something else should be changed/added/removed.

 

post-29220-1241445650_thumb.jpg

 

And the PDF

 

cheeze_vab_cad.PDF

 

Small possibility that the forward aft crossbeam is not straight, but an arc, center of which is the mast base, forward beam, and then goes tangent to the aft beam, just about right for a curved traveller track.

 

My guess at the shape of CZ is quite different, something like -

 

post-19692-1241475728_thumb.jpg

 

but with diagonal braces along directly above the Y arms.

 

Fits the shed, fits all the pads, fits the Y, puts the mast step in the right position, gives a curved traveller. Now, where to put that second mast??

 

 

 

Thats pretty cool. What would you guess the cross-section of those 'U' shaped akas would be?

 

My though is that once you start "bending" the straight square-tube akas of Le Black, you start losing stiffness?

 

My understanding is that LeBlack platform has to be pretty stiff to support the rig.

 

Do we think the same to be the case for CZ?

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Ok, this describes the first plan of attack on the "middle bits". We think we got the concrete pads in the VAB pretty close. I am assuming there will be lateral and diagonal beams centered on those concrete pads.

 

Green represents the beams. Blue represents the amas at 115 feet.

 

Just a top view. Will handle elevations later.

 

Others feel free to markup the bitmap if you think something else should be changed/added/removed.

 

post-29220-1241445650_thumb.jpg

 

And the PDF

 

cheeze_vab_cad.PDF

 

Small possibility that the forward aft crossbeam is not straight, but an arc, center of which is the mast base, forward beam, and then goes tangent to the aft beam, just about right for a curved traveller track.

 

My guess at the shape of CZ is quite different, something like -

 

post-19692-1241475728_thumb.jpg

 

but with diagonal braces along directly above the Y arms.

 

Fits the shed, fits all the pads, fits the Y, puts the mast step in the right position, gives a curved traveller. Now, where to put that second mast??

 

 

 

Thats pretty cool. What would you guess the cross-section of those 'U' shaped akas would be?

 

My though is that once you start "bending" the straight square-tube akas of Le Black, you start losing stiffness?

 

My understanding is that LeBlack platform has to be pretty stiff to support the rig.

 

Do we think the same to be the case for CZ?

 

IMO they aren't going to deviate from LeBlack or the D35's but that sure throws the Y off. Maybe the Y on the floor is wrong at the intersection due to the ends being the key points.

 

Another though on the platform shape is to look at the sailplan ie how long is the boom, where is the ce, whats the distance of the mast heel on a D35 from the stern & etc

 

Must be some other ways besides the points on the floor to help w/ desigining.

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IMO they aren't going to deviate from LeBlack or the D35's but that sure throws the Y off. Maybe the Y on the floor is wrong at the intersection due to the ends being the key points.

 

Another though on the platform shape is to look at the sailplan ie how long is the boom, where is the ce, whats the distance of the mast heel on a D35 from the stern & etc

 

Must be some other ways besides the points on the floor to help w/ desigining.

 

 

There are going to have to be a number of guesses, as the LWL is unknown in comparison to the LOA, one might guess that there would be more overhang forward.

 

I still vote for May 9th night for moving in some big chunks.

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My guess at the shape of CZ is quite different, something like...

 

...but with diagonal braces along directly above the Y arms.

 

Fits the shed, fits all the pads, fits the Y, puts the mast step in the right position, gives a curved traveller. Now, where to put that second mast??

 

Brian that is a neat looking boat, what is the length?

 

If you think perhaps that the concrete has been placed, where bonding will need to be done, then that D35-type 'central structure' would also be needing bonding, with everything else. Maybe you are on to something.

 

These daggerboard casings, what is your plan with them?

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...My though is that once you start "bending" the straight square-tube akas of Le Black, you start losing stiffness?

 

My understanding is that LeBlack platform has to be pretty stiff to support the rig.

 

Do we think the same to be the case for CZ?

 

 

Mo, this platform is so going to be so stiff it will make my Friday evening whiskey look like a Shirley Temple.

 

 

But how do they think to get this stiffness, with minimum weight?

 

 

It is back to these strange girder constructions, perhaps. Brian's central hull, it looks useful except for what is in front of the main beam. Why have that there?

 

It is not just that it has to be stiff to support the rig - it has to be stiff so it does not explode in little pieces, if the lightness is paramount.

 

...

 

A little fatigue here in the AC forum this evening? Even the lawyers have, as far as I can see, refused to write 500 new posts about GGYC's latest bulletin. Not even a mention of it, last I looked.

 

 

 

....

 

 

Thinking like the Swiss, to get inside their Alpine mentality...

 

Given a menu, on which there is 'enhanced conventional mast', or 'enhanced solid wing', or 'enhanced wingmast'; Which would you choose?

 

Dogzillas French (and goddamn, it is more French than the Eiffel Tower) wingmast is so perfect, I think maybe you pass on that alternative.

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Another though on the platform shape is to look at the sailplan ie how long is the boom, where is the ce, whats the distance of the mast heel on a D35 from the stern & etc

Must be some other ways besides the points on the floor to help w/ desigining.

 

 

Peelman, you are right to to chastise anyone who may be obsessed with the floor. Let's start with the amount of wind we expect to sail in.

 

If I were any kind of Swiss, it is not a big place, and presented with the prospect of doing battle against Ellison's French battleship - then I would not be in the mood to be doing him any favors.

 

How do you like Venice, in February? Light northerlies (very light). And there's a good party there as well.

 

My point being; why should the Swiss do anything other than what they have specialized in? All the more since Larry intentionally tried to put their noses out of joint with this multihull challenger?

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Ok, I went back and looked more closely at the spy shots. Turns out my model was more correct than the CAD drawing. Not vice-versa (my original suspicion). The forward concrete pads and 'Y' intersection gets moved FORWARD by about a meter, compared to my last drawings (CAD and 3D).

 

New updated "best" estimate of the concrete pads, relative to building structure, in CAD

 

post-29220-1241482792_thumb.jpg

 

 

 

PDF here too

 

cheeze_vab_cad.PDF

 

I will need to update the model, will take a bit.

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Another though on the platform shape is to look at the sailplan ie how long is the boom, where is the ce, whats the distance of the mast heel on a D35 from the stern & etc

Must be some other ways besides the points on the floor to help w/ desigining.

 

 

Peelman, you are right to to chastise anyone who may be obsessed with the floor. Let's start with the amount of wind we expect to sail in.

 

 

Me? Obsessive? :rolleyes: . Its all stingers fault. :lol:

 

My point being; why should the Swiss do anything other than what they have specialized in? All the more since Larry intentionally tried to put their noses out of joint with this multihull challenger?

 

This reminds me of something someone said way back when we were trying to guess what DZ would look like.

 

"It will be evolutionary, NOT revolutionary."

 

 

Sure enough we get an "updated variation" on something that VPLP and their Groupama friends have been doing for a long time.

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This reminds me of something someone said way back when we were trying to guess what DZ would look like.

 

"It will be evolutionary, NOT revolutionary."

 

 

Sure enough we get an "updated variation" on something that VPLP and their Groupama friends have been doing for a long time.

 

 

I agree.

 

And I'd say the 115' yawl is disinformation.

 

Bullshit distractor.

 

I vote for a single-master.

 

"Revolutionary" is too risky.

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Another though on the platform shape is to look at the sailplan ie how long is the boom, where is the ce, whats the distance of the mast heel on a D35 from the stern & etc

Must be some other ways besides the points on the floor to help w/ desigining.

Peelman, you are right to to chastise anyone who may be obsessed with the floor. Let's start with the amount of wind we expect to sail in.

 

If I were any kind of Swiss, it is not a big place, and presented with the prospect of doing battle against Ellison's French battleship - then I would not be in the mood to be doing him any favors.

 

How do you like Venice, in February? Light northerlies (very light). And there's a good party there as well.

 

My point being; why should the Swiss do anything other than what they have specialized in? All the more since Larry intentionally tried to put their noses out of joint with this multihull challenger?

 

I would prefer the word suggest as I'm not one of those after guard screamers ;)

 

The wind is 1/2 the program but more importantly the design philosophy of the sebschmidt team is to focus 1st on the sail plan or the drive train as they call it. These are quotes I originally bolded from their design comments that stick in my head -

 

"Our first given was the fact that the best existing boats are now too specialized, the catamarans being fastest in very light air and the trimarans, originally developed from the old Formula 40s, dominant in a breeze. The task: to be able to beat either in their favoured condition."

 

"Traditionally, perhaps out of habit, we would first design the platform, then the rig, then the sails. Here we reversed the process, first setting out the sailplan, without considering rig, beams or hulls at all...."

 

Specialized? IMO boat wise the Swiss are going to specialize in what they know best which is conditions similar to the lakes w/ a platform they know will perform the best in those conditions & not take them long to know how to handle. Say 90 LWL x 75'

 

Yep, but Larry is getting them because the Swiss stuck their nose in the vice. They didn't take a MCMC & went DoG so the vice is getting cranked up all the while the Swiss are screaming bloody murder w/ out realizing they should stop cranking the vice on their own nose. :lol:

 

Valencia will be the place as I'm not sold on them taking a new boat to a new venue w/ little training & expecting to Defend well. SNG has too much invested in Valencia on & off the water. Also, IMO history & the Deed make it the venue.

 

This is about playing the % by up scaling vs taking a flier to the hip when there is nothing on the horizon yet.

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Updated model adjusting for moved concrete pads. Also aligned the aft beam along the back edge of the amas, a la le Black.

 

"Middle bits" just got moved, but need to work on some detail there. The SYZ like amas still have too much waterline.

 

post-29220-1241485768_thumb.jpg

 

For those following at home

 

cheeze_models.zip

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FWIW. Updated SYZ style ama. Shortened the water line. Marked a 90 foot waterline (approximation). 105 feet overall.

 

 

Volume of the underbody is 3.1 cu meters, if that means anything.

 

post-29220-1241488562_thumb.jpg

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FWIW. Updated SYZ style ama. Shortened the water line. Marked a 90 foot waterline (approximation). 105 feet overall.

 

 

Volume of the underbody is 3.1 cu meters, if that means anything.

 

post-29220-1241488562_thumb.jpg

 

Oh, great, I am going to have to go metric for this one. 6.2 cubic meters... I remember the weight of saltwater off the top of my head, but in English units... I will be back later, it will be over 10,000 lbs displacement though, and that is under, so very acceptable for this workup.

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FWIW. Updated SYZ style ama. Shortened the water line. Marked a 90 foot waterline (approximation). 105 feet overall.

 

 

Volume of the underbody is 3.1 cu meters, if that means anything.

 

post-29220-1241488562_thumb.jpg

 

Pure magic guys!!!

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This has been interesting to watch, but just a little NA research would take you a long way here. I do not have the time to contribute in any depth but here are some starting points for you:

 

Mast step 57-60% of hull LOA aft of the bow. Probably a reasonable assumption that it is at the intersection of the Y, so depending on your assumption of aft overhang beyond the aft pads this should get you close on the hull's LOA, which will equal max effective waterline length when at full load and sailing (and not the same thing as measured LWL).

 

Assume a Slenderness Ratio of 12.3 as a starting point (best ever achieved on S&S and L'Black) =

L / (full-load displaced volume)^0.333 ; this is not not the same thing as as L/B.

Use LOA from above for L. This will allow you to back into a close estimate of full-load displaced volume of one hull (assumes we are designing to always fly a hull) and also then be able to convert to a close estimate of the full-load weight of the boat (you can look up the density for salt water depending on whether you are using metric or imperial units).

 

Assume a Prismatic Coefficient = 0.68 = full-load displ. volume / (max displaced sectional area x L). This prismatic coef or something very close to it is very common for high speed very slender displacement hulls. You know L and full-load displaced volume from above so this will get you to the max displaced sectional area. Depending on what research you believe about dynamic lift, you can use either the area of a semi-circle (WL beam = 2 x section depth) or an ellipse with WL beam/section depth = 2.5 (you can look up those formulas yourself) to solve for the max waterline beam and max depth (below the WL) of the canoe body at full load.

 

Get your hands on some free NA hull design software and you can then generate this underwater hullform directly (keep LCB ~55% aft of the bow).

 

There really are not that many secrets relative to good slender hullform design. Plumb versus wave piercing bows are generally just playing around the edges of the basic form to get a slight advantage.

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This has been interesting to watch, but just a little NA research would take you a long way here. I do not have the time to contribute in any depth but here are some starting points for you:

 

Mast step 57-60% of hull LOA aft of the bow. Probably a reasonable assumption that it is at the intersection of the Y, so depending on your assumption of aft overhang beyond the aft pads this should get you close on the hull's LOA, which will equal max effective waterline length when at full load and sailing (and not the same thing as measured LWL).

 

Assume a Slenderness Ratio of 12.3 as a starting point (best ever achieved on S&S and L'Black) =

L / (full-load displaced volume)^0.333 ; this is not not the same thing as as L/B.

 

 

Mark .... with what you posted above as context, what do you think of DZ ?

 

How does it shape up from your perspective?

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This has been interesting to watch, but just a little NA research would take you a long way here. I do not have the time to contribute in any depth but here are some starting points for you:

 

Mast step 57-60% of hull LOA aft of the bow. Probably a reasonable assumption that it is at the intersection of the Y, so depending on your assumption of aft overhang beyond the aft pads this should get you close on the hull's LOA, which will equal max effective waterline length when at full load and sailing (and not the same thing as measured LWL).

 

Assume a Slenderness Ratio of 12.3 as a starting point (best ever achieved on S&S and L'Black) =

L / (full-load displaced volume)^0.333 ; this is not not the same thing as as L/B.

Use LOA from above for L. This will allow you to back into a close estimate of full-load displaced volume of one hull (assumes we are designing to always fly a hull) and also then be able to convert to a close estimate of the full-load weight of the boat (you can look up the density for salt water depending on whether you are using metric or imperial units).

 

Assume a Prismatic Coefficient = 0.68 = full-load displ. volume / (max displaced sectional area x L). This prismatic coef or something very close to it is very common for high speed very slender displacement hulls. You know L and full-load displaced volume from above so this will get you to the max displaced sectional area. Depending on what research you believe about dynamic lift, you can use either the area of a semi-circle (WL beam = 2 x section depth) or an ellipse with WL beam/section depth = 2.5 (you can look up those formulas yourself) to solve for the max waterline beam and max depth (below the WL) of the canoe body at full load.

 

Get your hands on some free NA hull design software and you can then generate this underwater hullform directly (keep LCB ~55% aft of the bow).

 

There really are not that many secrets relative to good slender hullform design. Plumb versus wave piercing bows are generally just playing around the edges of the basic form to get a slight advantage.

 

Thanks for that MarksS. Yeah I have all sorts of books on this stuff but have yet to crack them open. Maybe now is the time ;) .

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My guess at the shape of CZ is quite different, something like...

 

...but with diagonal braces along directly above the Y arms.

 

Fits the shed, fits all the pads, fits the Y, puts the mast step in the right position, gives a curved traveller. Now, where to put that second mast??

 

Brian that is a neat looking boat, what is the length?

 

If you think perhaps that the concrete has been placed, where bonding will need to be done, then that D35-type 'central structure' would also be needing bonding, with everything else. Maybe you are on to something.

 

These daggerboard casings, what is your plan with them?

 

I'd guess about 135' LOA for a 115' WL.

Key thing is that if the amas really do have long overhangs forward, you need to curve the forward beam forward as well so that they do not have a long bow cantilevered out the front of the forward beam attachment point. If you have both beams curving forward, some diagonal bracing such as that provided by the Y is going to help keep the size and weight of the main beams down as well.

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Model update. Redid the center structure. This is basically a Le Black sorta frame. Cross members seem a bit on the beefy side. But now that I have browsed more D41 stuff on the web, I will say the concrete pads very much suggest a Le Black sorta structure (to me), after one considers.

 

  • Where and how the builders will attach the rudders and boards (cant have any stands in the way).
  • The "center structure" will probably be assembled from tubing into one piece, then the one piece attached to the amas...
  • The large square concrete pads will be used to support only the amas.
  • The "Y" will be used to support the (pre-made) center structure.

The height of the amas and center structure will be dialed in to do the center-structure to ama bonding.

 

Spotting rudders and boards might be a good next step.

 

Of course, to glean "competitive" information, knowing the hull shapes is critical. For that, taking MarkS's suggesting and going through a design-numbers excecise might yield something.

 

post-29220-1241498492_thumb.jpg

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Couple of points and links:

- Team Alinghi will sail 2 Decision 35 on Lake Geneva's races in 2009, basically to train for the multi match race: http://www.alinghi.com/fr/news/news/index....idContent=19382

- The old F40 was taken out of mothball last year as a study platform to design and train: http://www.alinghi.com/fr/news/features/in...idContent=15367

- Somebody asked about the barbed wires, these are on the the local fences of the Miauton site and not specific to the VAB, the bend inwards as the barrier itself is the terrain limit and probably zoning laws do not allow overhangs.

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Model update. Redid the center structure. This is basically a Le Black sorta frame. Cross members seem a bit on the beefy side. But now that I have browsed more D41 stuff on the web, I will say the concrete pads very much suggest a Le Black sorta structure (to me), ...

 

... Of course, to glean "competitive" information, knowing the hull shapes is critical. For that, taking MarkS's suggesting and going through a design-numbers excecise might yield something.

 

 

The photos on the following site are of ocean racers of course, but it is interesting to see all the recent big multis displayed like this:

 

http://voile-multicoques.wifeo.com/les-bateaux.php

 

They are looking pretty stiff for the most part, not so much flexing of their structures. But of course they are all trimarans.

 

 

So the Swiss, with this catamaran we expect of them, will have to accomplish something amazing to get the same rigidity. The beams and under-deck support structure are really the key things, and at this point we know so little about it.

 

 

MarkS convincingly makes the point that 'There really are not that many secrets relative to good slender hullform design."

 

On the other hand, there sure seems to be a secret, regarding how to optimally connect two such hulls while keeping the weight down.

 

 

Sure would be good to have any input on that.

 

 

 

As Philippe (how's the weather today Philippe?) just indicated to, the most recent photos of Le Black are on Alinghi's pages (they used to size up when clicked on, anyway I saved copies of the larger versions). Would all the cables under that boat need to be substituted by some other material on the 90-footer ?

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Thats looking pretty good now Mo Fuzz :)

+1. Looking fantastic for the assumptions we can reasonably make so far. the D41 architecture is almost certainly what they are pushing the limits on, more so than a D35 setup.

 

Quick thoughts, I missed about 36 hours of posts so, fwiw..

 

 

All we have for pieces to the puzzle so far is the following,

 

 

* The one Original Spy Shot (OSS) photo:

 

** two cradles (accurate)

** a top curve (inaccurate but only because of the perspective)

** a bottom curve (inaccurate but only because of the perspective)

** estimates on its length based on the site from satellite (+/- 5' of 110')

 

 

* Dimensions if the VAB:

 

** overall dimensions (accurate)

** corner slab spacing (accurate, including the 76' beam)

** Y dimensions (accurate)

 

 

Mo - If you think this idea is useful, then can you post a view of the hull from a similar angle as in the OSS, maybe even superimposed onto the photo, and with the cradles up into in the view too? If the cradles and hull curve can be seen to match your hull form closely, then you're probably right on. Maybe even just use the 'essential elements' pieces that I crayoned above. I can re-post if you want.

 

Am not completely convinced about the bow yet, based on the curve in the OSS, but it's certainly the modern style and even if the tarp-covered OSS doesn't indicate a reverse bow then it could still be the shape.. it certainly looks cool but do we have good reason for it, any evidence pointing that way?

 

Sure wish we had another spy shot of something to help guide the model, or at least an eye witness description.

 

Philippe, please keep a sharp eye out. If those hulls are not already into the VAB then I bet the make the journey soon. Probably early evening?

 

 

Anyone: On the bow end of the Y, under the sprit in the model above, any thoughts on why the concrete slab is so much wider there than elsewhere?

 

Blackburn and others keep pointing to the high-load cabling; there is substantial 'rebar' sticking out of that wider region of the Y slab; could they be related?

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Mo - If you think this idea is useful, then can you post a view of the hull from a similar angle as in the OSS, maybe even superimposed onto the photo, and with the cradles up into in the view too? If the cradles and hull curve can be seen to match your hull form closely, then you're probably right on. Maybe even just use the 'essential elements' pieces that I crayoned above. I can re-post if you want.

 

Good idea, I am not going to have time this morning. Feel free to post angles you think are informative.

 

 

Am not completely convinced about the bow yet, based on the curve in the OSS, but it's certainly the modern style and even if the tarp-covered OSS doesn't indicate a reverse bow then it could still be the shape.. it certainly looks cool but do we have good reason for it, any evidence pointing that way?

 

Yes, the SYZ style ama is just a guess. I would still like to do a Team Phillips like ama. More intel would be a good thing.

 

 

 

Anyone: On the bow end of the Y, under the sprit in the model above, any thoughts on why the concrete slab is so much wider there than elsewhere?

Blackburn and others keep pointing to the high-load cabling; there is substantial 'rebar' sticking out of that wider region of the Y slab; could they be related?

 

Here is a thought, I wonder if they plan to pre-tension, and load up the cabling on the center structure. BEFORE it was fitted/attached to the amas? Would there be build advantage for doing this? If so that might explain the reinforced concrete slabs to keep everything straight while tightening.

 

Edit: I know they pretension/preload the new sophisticated cable-stayed bridges, BEFORE they pour concrete. Could the same concept apply here. Less the concrete of course :P .

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Anyone: On the bow end of the Y, under the sprit in the model above, any thoughts on why the concrete slab is so much wider there than elsewhere?

Blackburn and others keep pointing to the high-load cabling; there is substantial 'rebar' sticking out of that wider region of the Y slab; could they be related?

 

Here is a thought, I wonder if they plan to pre-tension, and load up the cabling on the center structure. BEFORE it was fitted/attached to the amas? Would there be build advantage for doing this? If so that might explain the reinforced concrete slabs to keep everything straight while tightening.

 

Edit: I know they pretension/preload the new sophisticated cable-stayed bridges, BEFORE they pour concrete. Could the same concept apply here. Less the concrete of course :P .

 

 

 

Excellent Mo !

 

 

... anyone who thinks they can top that? Then speak Up !

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Mo - If you think this idea is useful, then can you post a view of the hull from a similar angle as in the OSS, maybe even superimposed onto the photo, and with the cradles up into in the view too? If the cradles and hull curve can be seen to match your hull form closely, then you're probably right on. Maybe even just use the 'essential elements' pieces that I crayoned above. I can re-post if you want.

 

Good idea, I am not going to have time this morning. Feel free to post angles you think are informative.

 

 

Am not completely convinced about the bow yet, based on the curve in the OSS, but it's certainly the modern style and even if the tarp-covered OSS doesn't indicate a reverse bow then it could still be the shape.. it certainly looks cool but do we have good reason for it, any evidence pointing that way?

 

Yes, the SYZ style ama is just a guess. I would still like to do a Team Phillips like ama. More intel would be a good thing.

 

 

 

Anyone: On the bow end of the Y, under the sprit in the model above, any thoughts on why the concrete slab is so much wider there than elsewhere?

Blackburn and others keep pointing to the high-load cabling; there is substantial 'rebar' sticking out of that wider region of the Y slab; could they be related?

 

Here is a thought, I wonder if they plan to pre-tension, and load up the cabling on the center structure. BEFORE it was fitted/attached to the amas? Would there be build advantage for doing this? If so that might explain the reinforced concrete slabs to keep everything straight while tightening.

 

Edit: I know they pretension/preload the new sophisticated cable-stayed bridges, BEFORE they pour concrete. Could the same concept apply here. Less the concrete of course :P .

 

More on the pre-tensioning. My father, who has done structural stuff, says that, on bridges, they will tension the cabling and stays and compress any "preformed" bits into place BEFORE and keep them tightened, DURING the "setting" process (be it mechanically, or setting with concrete). Makes for a stronger, stiffer and lighter structure when done. The new SF Bay Bridge is an example.

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Anyone: On the bow end of the Y, under the sprit in the model above, any thoughts on why the concrete slab is so much wider there than elsewhere?

Blackburn and others keep pointing to the high-load cabling; there is substantial 'rebar' sticking out of that wider region of the Y slab; could they be related?

 

Here is a thought, I wonder if they plan to pre-tension, and load up the cabling on the center structure. BEFORE it was fitted/attached to the amas? Would there be build advantage for doing this? If so that might explain the reinforced concrete slabs to keep everything straight while tightening.

 

Edit: I know they pretension/preload the new sophisticated cable-stayed bridges, BEFORE they pour concrete. Could the same concept apply here. Less the concrete of course :P .

 

 

 

Excellent Mo !

 

 

... anyone who thinks they can top that? Then speak Up !

+1

 

Pretension and preload has to be what that's all about... A ~lot~ of tension and load, that slab is just massive.

 

Can we make sense for a lot of tensioner tooling to be set up under the sprit?

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More on the pre-tensioning. My father, who has done structural stuff, says that, on bridges, they will tension the cabling and stays and compress any "preformed" bits into place BEFORE and keep them tightened, DURING the "setting" process (be it mechanically, or setting with concrete). Makes for a stronger, stiffer and lighter structure when done. The new SF Bay Bridge is an example.

I think what you are suggesting is they will use the pad to hold the pretension while they assemble everything around it, and then 'release' that into the rest of the system, causing everything else to get taught. ?

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Mo - If you think this idea is useful, then can you post a view of the hull from a similar angle as in the OSS, maybe even superimposed onto the photo, and with the cradles up into in the view too? If the cradles and hull curve can be seen to match your hull form closely, then you're probably right on. Maybe even just use the 'essential elements' pieces that I crayoned above. I can re-post if you want.

 

Good idea, I am not going to have time this morning. Feel free to post angles you think are informative.

Was thinking along these lines, for which we have you to thank on the traces.

post-17804-1241533779_thumb.jpg post-17804-1241533794_thumb.jpg

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Am not completely convinced about the bow yet, based on the curve in the OSS, but it's certainly the modern style and even if the tarp-covered OSS doesn't indicate a reverse bow then it could still be the shape.. it certainly looks cool but do we have good reason for it, any evidence pointing that way?

 

Yes, the SYZ style ama is just a guess. I would still like to do a Team Phillips like ama. More intel would be a good thing.

There is a possible curve to the bow end suggested in the OSS but it's damn hard to be certain. Here is the region I'm referring to.

 

post-17804-1241534404_thumb.jpg

 

post-17804-1241534792_thumb.jpg

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post-17804-1241533794_thumb.jpg

Sorry, that one is upside down.. but anyway. meaning: The top side would have the curve, much like the SYZ style bow.

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Sorry, that one is upside down.. but anyway. meaning: The top side would have the curve, much like the SYZ style bow.

Apologies again for all the crayon.

 

Anyone agree with this?:

post-17804-1241535437_thumb.jpg

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More on the pre-tensioning. My father, who has done structural stuff, says that, on bridges, they will tension the cabling and stays and compress any "preformed" bits into place BEFORE and keep them tightened, DURING the "setting" process (be it mechanically, or setting with concrete). Makes for a stronger, stiffer and lighter structure when done. The new SF Bay Bridge is an example.

 

 

 

 

Something for you Mo!

 

 

 

 

Abbott: You know, Costello, I've been spending a lot of time lately, surfing! On the internet!

It is really, very, interesting!

 

Costello: (frowning) I don't like surfing.... it makes my pants fall off!

 

Abbott: You should try it, it's educational! For instance today - I was reading all about the Cheezilla...

 

Costello: ... (double take) What the Heck is That ?

 

Abbott: It's a boat made in Switzerland! Did you know they have sailboats there! In lakes!

They're developing history's fastest and stiffest catamaran, all thanks to ...

 

Costello: (interrupts) Ahhh why?

 

Abbott: (irritated) ... Because it's going to be in a race. And to win this race their boat needs to be really light,

and stiff! So they're making this amazing intricate structure, with Carbon Fiber! (very satisfied)

 

Costello: ... A why.

 

Abbott: Because they wouldn't use lead, you dummy, they want it be light and go fast! So they thought of a new Swiss invention...

 

Costello: (interrupts) A why?

 

Abbott: (takes a deep breath, gesticulates) ... like I was trying to explain to you... It's a pre-tensioned thing that comes from the bow to the mast,

and goes off, to each stern of the catamaran! (folds arms, very satisfied)

 

Costello: (now growing furious) But that's just what I said !

 

Abbott: Who said?

 

Costello: Like I was trying to tell YOU! And you start off with these cockamamey Swiss pretentions! You should

keep your big mouth shut, and listen to me for a change! The Swiss boat has got this...

 

Abbott: (interrupts) Why?

 

Costello ..... I said it First!

 

(end page one)

 

 

...... A little later

 

Costello: "Knock - knock!"

 

Abbott: "Who's there?"

 

Costello: (slowly and distinctly) " ... Alinghi ... AC !"

 

Abbott: (looking surprised) "... Alinghi ... Aycee ... Who ??"

 

Costello: (stands on his toes) "Who - told - You - to - start ..... YODELLING !!?? "

 

Abbott: (more forcefullly) "Alinghi ~~ Aycee ~~ Who ?"

 

Costello: (beats Abbott about the head with his hat). Stop Yodelling! Shaddup!!

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More on the pre-tensioning. My father, who has done structural stuff, says that, on bridges, they will tension the cabling and stays and compress any "preformed" bits into place BEFORE and keep them tightened, DURING the "setting" process (be it mechanically, or setting with concrete). Makes for a stronger, stiffer and lighter structure when done. The new SF Bay Bridge is an example.

 

 

 

 

Something for you Mo!

 

 

 

 

Abbott: You know, Costello, I've been spending a lot of time lately, surfing! On the internet!

It is really, very, interesting!

 

Costello: (frowning) I don't like surfing.... it makes my pants fall off!

 

Abbott: You should try it, it's educational! For instance today - I was reading all about the Cheezilla...

 

Costello: ... (double take) What the Heck is That ?

 

Abbott: It's a boat made in Switzerland! Did you know they have sailboats there! In lakes!

They're developing history's fastest and stiffest catamaran, all thanks to ...

 

Costello: (interrupts) Ahhh why?

 

Abbott: (irritated) ... Because it's going to be in a race. And to win this race their boat needs to be really light,

and stiff! So they're making this amazing intricate structure, with Carbon Fiber! (very satisfied)

 

Costello: ... A why.

 

Abbott: Because they wouldn't use lead, you dummy, they want it be light and go fast! So they thought of a new Swiss invention...

 

Costello: (interrupts) A why?

 

Abbott: (takes a deep breath, gesticulates) ... like I was trying to explain to you... It's a pre-tensioned thing that comes from the bow to the mast,

and goes off, to each stern of the catamaran! (folds arms, very satisfied)

 

Costello: (now growing furious) But that's just what I said !

 

Abbott: Who said?

 

Costello: Like I was trying to tell YOU! And you start off with these cockamamey Swiss pretentions! You should

keep your big mouth shut, and listen to me for a change! The Swiss boat has got this...

 

Abbott: (interrupts) Why?

 

Costello ..... I said it First!

 

(end page one)

 

 

...... A little later

 

Costello: "Knock - knock!"

 

Abbott: "Who's there?"

 

Costello: (slowly and distinctly) " ... Alinghi ... AC !"

 

Abbott: (looking surprised) "... Alinghi ... Aycee ... Who ??"

 

Costello: (stands on his toes) "Who - told - You - to - start ..... YODELLING !!?? "

 

Abbott: (more forcefullly) "Alinghi ~~ Aycee ~~ Who ?"

 

Costello: (beats Abbott about the head with his hat). Stop Yodelling! Shaddup!!

That's a very cool one and a milestone away from the usual lawering BS :D

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...... A little later

 

Costello: "Knock - knock!"

 

Abbott: "Who's there?"

 

Costello: (slowly and distinctly) " ... Alinghi ... AC !"

 

Abbott: (looking surprised) "... Alinghi ... Aycee ... Who ??"

 

Costello: (stands on his toes) "Who - told - You - to - start ..... YODELLING !!?? "

 

Abbott: (more forcefullly) "Alinghi ~~ Aycee ~~ Who ?"

 

Costello: (beats Abbott about the head with his hat). Stop Yodelling! Shaddup!!

Lol, good stuff.

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Anyone: On the bow end of the Y, under the sprit in the model above, any thoughts on why the concrete slab is so much wider there than elsewhere?

Blackburn and others keep pointing to the high-load cabling; there is substantial 'rebar' sticking out of that wider region of the Y slab; could they be related?

 

Here is a thought, I wonder if they plan to pre-tension, and load up the cabling on the center structure. BEFORE it was fitted/attached to the amas? Would there be build advantage for doing this? If so that might explain the reinforced concrete slabs to keep everything straight while tightening.

 

Edit: I know they pretension/preload the new sophisticated cable-stayed bridges, BEFORE they pour concrete. Could the same concept apply here. Less the concrete of course :P .

 

 

 

Excellent Mo !

 

 

... anyone who thinks they can top that? Then speak Up !

+1

 

Pretension and preload has to be what that's all about... A ~lot~ of tension and load, that slab is just massive.

 

Can we make sense for a lot of tensioner tooling to be set up under the sprit?

 

Yes, depending on where the headstay(s) are positioned. I originally wondered why the "grade beam" concrete configuration. Now I am convinced that it will counteract the forces of the "rigging" below the crossbeams, and will be released after the mast is placed and stays and shrouds tensioned. Which reminds me that I think this boat won't roll out, but will be unveiled as the tent is taken apart.

 

Using the displacement ballpark of 6.2 cu meters, in freshwater, 1000kg per cubic meter, or 6.200kg. Saltwater is generally calc'd at 64lb per cubic foot. did not have much time to reference, and my books are in storage, but 11,000lbs displacement is what I would guess at this point.

 

Knowing where the boat is, near the lake but not an easy transit. referencing heavy lift helicopters while we have noted it before, there are not many I would think around, I wonder if there is a lift scheduled anytime in the coming month(s)?

 

And good work guys, I really would love to see the expression on an alinghi design team member's face as he reads this.

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Yes, depending on where the headstay(s) are positioned. I originally wondered why the "grade beam" concrete configuration. Now I am convinced that it will counteract the forces of the "rigging" below the crossbeams, and will be released after the mast is placed and stays and shrouds tensioned. Which reminds me that I think this boat won't roll out, but will be unveiled as the tent is taken apart.

 

Using the displacement ballpark of 6.2 cu meters, in freshwater, 1000kg per cubic meter, or 6.200kg. Saltwater is generally calc'd at 64lb per cubic foot. did not have much time to reference, and my books are in storage, but 11,000lbs displacement is what I would guess at this point.

 

Knowing where the boat is, near the lake but not an easy transit. referencing heavy lift helicopters while we have noted it before, there are not many I would think around, I wonder if there is a lift scheduled anytime in the coming month(s)?

Haven't tried finding local heavy-lift helo's yet but there is some logging industry in the mountains nearby and I suspect they helicopter those logs out because the slopes are too steep for carving roads up to them. Knowing a little French could help someone search for them, and figure out what may be possible lift-wise.

 

edit: Here's a possibly interesting trail, at Swiss Helicopter:

 

In the mountains the flight assistant is just as important as the pilot. Only a well-rehearsed team can safely transport passengers and heavy loads. Especially demanding is forestry work with a helicopter, known as “logging” in technical jargon. The correct attachment and transport of tree trunks is extremely demanding both on pilot and ground crew.

 

The French 'beast of burden’, the SA 315B, which has proved itself for 40 years is gradually being replaced by the Ecureuil B3 von Eurocopter.

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Yes, depending on where the headstay(s) are positioned. I originally wondered why the "grade beam" concrete configuration. Now I am convinced that it will counteract the forces of the "rigging" below the crossbeams, and will be released after the mast is placed and stays and shrouds tensioned. Which reminds me that I think this boat won't roll out, but will be unveiled as the tent is taken apart.

 

this makes me think that if the mast needs to be added to the structure while it is held in place by the slabs, how are they going to get the fully assembled mast + boat to Valencia? Surely they cant be thinking of heli'ing it all the way there?

 

So that means that there must be a plan to dismantle and re-assemble at the race site. Still need pads for this? need to be on the lookout for a set of Y pads on the Med coast...

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Thats looking pretty good now Mo Fuzz :)

+1. Looking fantastic for the assumptions we can reasonably make so far. the D41 architecture is almost certainly what they are pushing the limits on, more so than a D35 setup.

 

Quick thoughts, I missed about 36 hours of posts so, fwiw..

 

 

All we have for pieces to the puzzle so far is the following,

 

 

* The one Original Spy Shot (OSS) photo:

 

** two cradles (accurate)

** a top curve (inaccurate but only because of the perspective)

** a bottom curve (inaccurate but only because of the perspective)

** estimates on its length based on the site from satellite (+/- 5' of 110')

 

 

* Dimensions if the VAB:

 

** overall dimensions (accurate)

** corner slab spacing (accurate, including the 76' beam)

** Y dimensions (accurate)

 

 

Mo - If you think this idea is useful, then can you post a view of the hull from a similar angle as in the OSS, maybe even superimposed onto the photo, and with the cradles up into in the view too? If the cradles and hull curve can be seen to match your hull form closely, then you're probably right on. Maybe even just use the 'essential elements' pieces that I crayoned above. I can re-post if you want.

 

Am not completely convinced about the bow yet, based on the curve in the OSS, but it's certainly the modern style and even if the tarp-covered OSS doesn't indicate a reverse bow then it could still be the shape.. it certainly looks cool but do we have good reason for it, any evidence pointing that way?

 

Sure wish we had another spy shot of something to help guide the model, or at least an eye witness description.

 

Philippe, please keep a sharp eye out. If those hulls are not already into the VAB then I bet the make the journey soon. Probably early evening?

 

 

Anyone: On the bow end of the Y, under the sprit in the model above, any thoughts on why the concrete slab is so much wider there than elsewhere?

 

Blackburn and others keep pointing to the high-load cabling; there is substantial 'rebar' sticking out of that wider region of the Y slab; could they be related?

 

The rebar goes back to what I suggested before w/ the tennis racquet being put into a stringing frame before it's strung. They need key points on the floor to to anchor & stablize the hulls, pod & sprite when they string & tension the wire or whatever they are using.

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More on the pre-tensioning. My father, who has done structural stuff, says that, on bridges, they will tension the cabling and stays and compress any "preformed" bits into place BEFORE and keep them tightened, DURING the "setting" process (be it mechanically, or setting with concrete). Makes for a stronger, stiffer and lighter structure when done. The new SF Bay Bridge is an example.

I think what you are suggesting is they will use the pad to hold the pretension while they assemble everything around it, and then 'release' that into the rest of the system, causing everything else to get taught. ?

 

 

 

Yeah, something like that. I would think you would want the overall shape/alignment/position of the craft *while* the platform structure is in tension. If you attached bits, then tensioned all the cables, stays, and wires, you risk torquing and twisting the overall shape of the craft.

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Yes, depending on where the headstay(s) are positioned. I originally wondered why the "grade beam" concrete configuration. Now I am convinced that it will counteract the forces of the "rigging" below the crossbeams, and will be released after the mast is placed and stays and shrouds tensioned. Which reminds me that I think this boat won't roll out, but will be unveiled as the tent is taken apart.

 

Using the displacement ballpark of 6.2 cu meters, in freshwater, 1000kg per cubic meter, or 6.200kg. Saltwater is generally calc'd at 64lb per cubic foot. did not have much time to reference, and my books are in storage, but 11,000lbs displacement is what I would guess at this point.

 

Knowing where the boat is, near the lake but not an easy transit. referencing heavy lift helicopters while we have noted it before, there are not many I would think around, I wonder if there is a lift scheduled anytime in the coming month(s)?

Haven't tried finding local heavy-lift helo's yet but there is some logging industry in the mountains nearby and I suspect they helicopter those logs out because the slopes are too steep for carving roads up to them. Knowing a little French could help someone search for them, and figure out what may be possible lift-wise.

 

edit: Here's a possibly interesting trail, at Swiss Helicopter:

 

In the mountains the flight assistant is just as important as the pilot. Only a well-rehearsed team can safely transport passengers and heavy loads. Especially demanding is forestry work with a helicopter, known as “logging” in technical jargon. The correct attachment and transport of tree trunks is extremely demanding both on pilot and ground crew.

 

The French 'beast of burden’, the SA 315B, which has proved itself for 40 years is gradually being replaced by the Ecureuil B3 von Eurocopter.

 

You occasionally see this thing flying around, but who knows if CZ will be under its lifting capacity.

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More on the pre-tensioning. My father, who has done structural stuff, says that, on bridges, they will tension the cabling and stays and compress any "preformed" bits into place BEFORE and keep them tightened, DURING the "setting" process (be it mechanically, or setting with concrete). Makes for a stronger, stiffer and lighter structure when done. The new SF Bay Bridge is an example.

 

 

 

 

Something for you Mo!

 

 

 

 

Abbott: You know, Costello, I've been spending a lot of time lately, surfing! On the internet!

It is really, very, interesting!

 

Costello: (frowning) I don't like surfing.... it makes my pants fall off!

 

Abbott: You should try it, it's educational! For instance today - I was reading all about the Cheezilla...

 

Costello: ... (double take) What the Heck is That ?

 

Abbott: It's a boat made in Switzerland! Did you know they have sailboats there! In lakes!

They're developing history's fastest and stiffest catamaran, all thanks to ...

 

Costello: (interrupts) Ahhh why?

 

Abbott: (irritated) ... Because it's going to be in a race. And to win this race their boat needs to be really light,

and stiff! So they're making this amazing intricate structure, with Carbon Fiber! (very satisfied)

 

Costello: ... A why.

 

Abbott: Because they wouldn't use lead, you dummy, they want it be light and go fast! So they thought of a new Swiss invention...

 

Costello: (interrupts) A why?

 

Abbott: (takes a deep breath, gesticulates) ... like I was trying to explain to you... It's a pre-tensioned thing that comes from the bow to the mast,

and goes off, to each stern of the catamaran! (folds arms, very satisfied)

 

Costello: (now growing furious) But that's just what I said !

 

Abbott: Who said?

 

Costello: Like I was trying to tell YOU! And you start off with these cockamamey Swiss pretentions! You should

keep your big mouth shut, and listen to me for a change! The Swiss boat has got this...

 

Abbott: (interrupts) Why?

 

Costello ..... I said it First!

 

(end page one)

 

 

...... A little later

 

Costello: "Knock - knock!"

 

Abbott: "Who's there?"

 

Costello: (slowly and distinctly) " ... Alinghi ... AC !"

 

Abbott: (looking surprised) "... Alinghi ... Aycee ... Who ??"

 

Costello: (stands on his toes) "Who - told - You - to - start ..... YODELLING !!?? "

 

Abbott: (more forcefullly) "Alinghi ~~ Aycee ~~ Who ?"

 

Costello: (beats Abbott about the head with his hat). Stop Yodelling! Shaddup!!

 

 

 

 

 

 

Ha. Thanks for that Abbott & Costello. One my favorite slapstick comic teams. Even though I am considered "too young" :P .

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More on the pre-tensioning. My father, who has done structural stuff, says that, on bridges, they will tension the cabling and stays and compress any "preformed" bits into place BEFORE and keep them tightened, DURING the "setting" process (be it mechanically, or setting with concrete). Makes for a stronger, stiffer and lighter structure when done. The new SF Bay Bridge is an example.

I think what you are suggesting is they will use the pad to hold the pretension while they assemble everything around it, and then 'release' that into the rest of the system, causing everything else to get taught. ?

 

 

 

Yeah, something like that. I would think you would want the overall shape/alignment/position of the craft *while* the platform structure is in tension. If you attached bits, then tensioned all the cables, stays, and wires, you risk torquing and twisting the overall shape of the craft.

 

My hunch is, and this is just a guess, that if you don't get your design, materials and do your FEA properly, with so much potential energy stored in the platform, if something were to fail, it could fail...

 

...SPECTACULARLY.

 

The thing would seem to explode and bits could be flying everywhere.

 

 

Hopefully during Race 1.

 

 

Nevermind the helmets and life preservers the DZ crew would be wearing. The CZ crew should consider wearing flak-jackets.

 

 

But seriously, I don't think the potential energy would be *that* much. But a breakage of a structure under tension, due to load failure, might not easily be repaired, in a day, before the next race.

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You occasionally see this thing flying around, but who knows if CZ will be under its lifting capacity.

Yes - At 5 000 kg it may be enough. That's 11 000 lb.

 

This guy may even be able to do it, at 4 500 kg (9 900 lb) - do you see these too?

 

Logging, transport, assembly work, Fire-fighting, rescue, passenger transport, etc. Electronic weighing unit for weight and time monitoring on external-load flights. Seating: 17 passenger seats 2 pilot seats. VIP outfitting if required.

 

post-17804-1241544149_thumb.jpg

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Turntable animation of latest CZ guess at

 

Damn - That is sweet. Thanks for all the animations, really appreciate them.

 

So what's next, boards?

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More on the pre-tensioning. My father, who has done structural stuff, says that, on bridges, they will tension the cabling and stays and compress any "preformed" bits into place BEFORE and keep them tightened, DURING the "setting" process (be it mechanically, or setting with concrete). Makes for a stronger, stiffer and lighter structure when done. The new SF Bay Bridge is an example.

I think what you are suggesting is they will use the pad to hold the pretension while they assemble everything around it, and then 'release' that into the rest of the system, causing everything else to get taught. ?

 

 

 

Yeah, something like that. I would think you would want the overall shape/alignment/position of the craft *while* the platform structure is in tension. If you attached bits, then tensioned all the cables, stays, and wires, you risk torquing and twisting the overall shape of the craft.

 

My hunch is, and this is just a guess, that if you don't get your design, materials and do your FEA properly, with so much potential energy stored in the platform, if something were to fail, it could fail...

 

...SPECTACULARLY.

 

The thing would seem to explode and bits could be flying everywhere.

 

 

Hopefully during Race 1.

 

 

Nevermind the helmets and life preservers the DZ crew would be wearing. The CZ crew should consider wearing flak-jackets.

 

 

But seriously, I don't think the potential energy would be *that* much. But a breakage of a structure under tension, due to load failure, might not easily be repaired, in a day, before the next race.

 

True & a good reason they are probably just upsizing Le Black. Less risk of a nuclear blowup w/ pieces going everywhere & the crew jumping into the drink for their lives.

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You occasionally see this thing flying around, but who knows if CZ will be under its lifting capacity.

Yes - At 5 000 kg it may be enough. That's 11 000 lb.

 

This guy may even be able to do it, at 4 500 kg (9 900 lb) - do you see these too?

 

Logging, transport, assembly work, Fire-fighting, rescue, passenger transport, etc. Electronic weighing unit for weight and time monitoring on external-load flights. Seating: 17 passenger seats 2 pilot seats. VIP outfitting if required.

 

post-17804-1241544149_thumb.jpg

 

I think no go on these, the rating is at sea level, the VAB is not. Altitude is a big factor on helos. Also, the capacity is often rated at with all cargo, which includes pilot(s) passengers, fuel and cargo. So, there needs to be something with a higher overall rating, air temp and even a damp or dry day can make a difference. My sister, could figure it out, I will see what I can do.

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Turntable animation of latest CZ guess at

 

 

 

Brilliant!!!! The only thing missing is some background tunes from Stinger & Stingette ;)

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Turntable animation of latest CZ guess at

 

 

 

Brilliant!!!! The only thing missing is some background tunes from Stinger & Stingette ;)

 

Forward me the mp3 and I can get it into the next one.

 

Dunno, does CZ have a "theme song" yet?

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You occasionally see this thing flying around, but who knows if CZ will be under its lifting capacity.

Yes - At 5 000 kg it may be enough. That's 11 000 lb.

 

This guy may even be able to do it, at 4 500 kg (9 900 lb) - do you see these too?

 

Logging, transport, assembly work, Fire-fighting, rescue, passenger transport, etc. Electronic weighing unit for weight and time monitoring on external-load flights. Seating: 17 passenger seats 2 pilot seats. VIP outfitting if required.

 

post-17804-1241544149_thumb.jpg

 

I think no go on these, the rating is at sea level, the VAB is not. Altitude is a big factor on helos. Also, the capacity is often rated at with all cargo, which includes pilot(s) passengers, fuel and cargo. So, there needs to be something with a higher overall rating, air temp and even a damp or dry day can make a difference. My sister, could figure it out, I will see what I can do.

Cool, here's some figures for Villenueve

 

Latitude 46.4000 Longitude 6.9333 Altitude (feet) 2188

Lat (DMS) 46° 23' 60N Long (DMS) 6° 55' 60E Altitude (meters) 666

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Turntable animation of latest CZ guess at

 

 

 

Brilliant!!!! The only thing missing is some background tunes from Stinger & Stingette ;)

 

Forward me the mp3 and I can get it into the next one.

 

Dunno, does CZ have a "theme song" yet?

 

That should be your choice but please make them fun?

One idea:

 

I bet AG will be good at this.. Peelman, want to start a new thread asking for CZ theme suggestions, maybe post the animation links we have so far?

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Turntable animation of latest CZ guess at

 

 

 

Brilliant!!!! The only thing missing is some background tunes from Stinger & Stingette ;)

 

Forward me the mp3 and I can get it into the next one.

 

Dunno, does CZ have a "theme song" yet?

 

That should be your choice but please make them fun?

One idea:

 

I bet AG will be good at this.. Peelman, want to start a new thread asking for CZ theme suggestions, maybe post the animation links we have so far?

 

Done & click here

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The slope of the bow on your model for Alinghi's boat looks dodgy

 

Thank you. That is a really big help.

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The slope of the bow on your model for Alinghi's boat looks dodgy

 

Thank you. That is a really big help.

 

No worries, surprised you didn't spot it yourself

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Cool, here's some figures for Villenueve

 

Latitude 46.4000 Longitude 6.9333 Altitude (feet) 2188

Lat (DMS) 46° 23' 60N Long (DMS) 6° 55' 60E Altitude (meters) 666

 

Got a quick call in, here is some useful info. Total payload and cargo load can vary depending on how the mfg. puts together the numbers, or is it marketing or engineering in control. External payload is always less, often 80% of the total payload from a quick review. On turbine powered aircraft, the altitude modifiers are less intrusive, as this is under 4,000 ft. Don't know if the travel to a navigable river is without an Alpine pass to travel over.

 

Her first suggestion:

 

http://www.sikorsky.com/StaticFiles/Sikors...issionBrief.pdf Earlier versions such as the CH-53E would also probably be able to handle it. This is one serious helicopter.

 

She went big, as her comment was, how would you refuel? The hop to the lake would be easy, in comparison to a long transport trip. Travel from the nearest fueling landing pad has to also be factored in.

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post-29220-1241498492_thumb.jpg

 

 

MarkS in post #1626 suggests that the mast should be 57-60% aft of bow. Are you factoring that in to your models?

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Cool, here's some figures for Villenueve

 

Latitude 46.4000 Longitude 6.9333 Altitude (feet) 2188

Lat (DMS) 46° 23' 60N Long (DMS) 6° 55' 60E Altitude (meters) 666

 

Got a quick call in, here is some useful info. Total payload and cargo load can vary depending on how the mfg. puts together the numbers, or is it marketing or engineering in control. External payload is always less, often 80% of the total payload from a quick review. On turbine powered aircraft, the altitude modifiers are less intrusive, as this is under 4,000 ft. Don't know if the travel to a navigable river is without an Alpine pass to travel over.

 

Her first suggestion:

 

http://www.sikorsky.com/StaticFiles/Sikors...issionBrief.pdf Earlier versions such as the CH-53E would also probably be able to handle it. This is one serious helicopter.

 

She went big, as her comment was, how would you refuel? The hop to the lake would be easy, in comparison to a long transport trip. Travel from the nearest fueling landing pad has to also be factored in.

Good info, thanks.

 

I doubt they would try helicopter it to the Med, it's just the short hop they will need it for and so those Sikorsky CH-53's may be overkill. Still, it's interesting how beefy those are.

 

For the D35 and D41 lifts in Villeneuve I believe they went to the edge of town, roughly west, then over the unpopulated area to the lake, then to the waterfront near the marina. It's still only 2 to 3km, probably.

 

It's going to be one amazing sight. It's also a great "I told you so" opportunity to Marian and others who argued they would never float it on the lake. :P

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A correction: the altitude of Villeneuve is stated at 375m, which is the altitude of the lake, so use say 400 for a reference and not 666m. Weather improving for the next two days...

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post-29220-1241498492_thumb.jpg

 

 

MarkS in post #1626 suggests that the mast should be 57-60% aft of bow. Are you factoring that in to your models?

 

The mast looks to be about only 45% aft of the bows. But he also said the Y intersection is the spot, right?

 

On DZ, I estimate 57% by the amas so he's dead on for that one. Interesting.

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A correction: the altitude of Villeneuve is stated at 375m, which is the altitude of the lake, so use say 400 for a reference and not 666m. Weather improving for the next two days...

 

Shoot, I ~knew~ that too. Thanks for the correction on the bad numbers, they came from here. I should have looked more closely.

 

Okay, so altitude is not much of a factor.

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I doubt they would try helicopter it to the Med, it's just the short hop they will need it for and so those Sikorsky CH-53's may be overkill. Still, it's interesting how beefy those are.

How do you expect they will get it to the Med? Cut it up into 2m chunks and Fed Ex it?

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post-29220-1241498492_thumb.jpg

 

 

MarkS in post #1626 suggests that the mast should be 57-60% aft of bow. Are you factoring that in to your models?

 

The mast looks to be about only 45% aft of the bows. But he also said the Y intersection is the spot, right?

 

On DZ, I estimate 57% by the amas so he's dead on for that one. Interesting.

 

When you mean "aft of the bow" do you mean relative to the tips of the AMAs, or the end of the bowsprit?

 

My guess is you want it relative to the bowsprit for sail balance. If that is true we can use that figure to guesstimate how long the bowsprit is.

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re-posting for convenience.

This has been interesting to watch, but just a little NA research would take you a long way here. I do not have the time to contribute in any depth but here are some starting points for you:

 

Mast step 57-60% of hull LOA aft of the bow. Probably a reasonable assumption that it is at the intersection of the Y, so depending on your assumption of aft overhang beyond the aft pads this should get you close on the hull's LOA, which will equal max effective waterline length when at full load and sailing (and not the same thing as measured LWL).

 

Assume a Slenderness Ratio of 12.3 as a starting point (best ever achieved on S&S and L'Black) =

L / (full-load displaced volume)^0.333 ; this is not not the same thing as as L/B.

Use LOA from above for L. This will allow you to back into a close estimate of full-load displaced volume of one hull (assumes we are designing to always fly a hull) and also then be able to convert to a close estimate of the full-load weight of the boat (you can look up the density for salt water depending on whether you are using metric or imperial units).

 

Assume a Prismatic Coefficient = 0.68 = full-load displ. volume / (max displaced sectional area x L). This prismatic coef or something very close to it is very common for high speed very slender displacement hulls. You know L and full-load displaced volume from above so this will get you to the max displaced sectional area. Depending on what research you believe about dynamic lift, you can use either the area of a semi-circle (WL beam = 2 x section depth) or an ellipse with WL beam/section depth = 2.5 (you can look up those formulas yourself) to solve for the max waterline beam and max depth (below the WL) of the canoe body at full load.

 

Get your hands on some free NA hull design software and you can then generate this underwater hullform directly (keep LCB ~55% aft of the bow).

 

There really are not that many secrets relative to good slender hullform design. Plumb versus wave piercing bows are generally just playing around the edges of the basic form to get a slight advantage.

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Her first suggestion:

 

http://www.sikorsky.com/StaticFiles/Sikors...issionBrief.pdf Earlier versions such as the CH-53E would also probably be able to handle it. This is one serious helicopter.

 

She went big, as her comment was, how would you refuel? The hop to the lake would be easy, in comparison to a long transport trip. Travel from the nearest fueling landing pad has to also be factored in.

Think we have it nailed here:

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Think we have it nailed here:

Funny, just sent an email to the owner of eXtreme helicopters in Villeneuve, asking if he can take some video for us :)

 

More RC fun here

 

"Jeez, the VAB has those little windows, but they're way up high, I wish I could get a peek in there..."

 

That was my thought.

 

You went the next step and figured out how, identified and contacted the right people and are on your way...

Bet you get an overflight of the Decision yard too!

 

I like the way you work, and am convinced that with some resources...you could find Bin Laden.

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Think we have it nailed here:

Funny, just sent an email to the owner of eXtreme helicopters in Villeneuve, asking if he can take some video for us :)

 

More RC fun here

 

"Jeez, the VAB has those little windows, but they're way up high, I wish I could get a peek in there..."

 

That was my thought.

 

You went the next step and figured out how, identified and contacted the right people and are on your way...

Bet you get an overflight of the Decision yard too!

 

I like the way you work, and am convinced that with some resources...you could find Bin Laden.

Finding bin Laden may be just about as dangerous as it will be for this guy, if he starts looking through those windows. No idea if he's into it yet, but he most likely knows some of the folks who are into videoing stuff for fun. In that second video link, scroll to about 5 minutes in and you'll see a ~really~ nice chopper, looks like it's gas powered. Could probably cut right through that wall, look around, and escape before anyone can drop it with a shot. Otoh, I might end up having to pay for one expensive piece of wreckage! There's a few good planes too.

 

I wouldn't be surprised if someone decides to have a little fun with this, especially if news gets out and interest levels rise. I think this boat is going to really put the town of Villeneuve on the map.

 

Here's what I sent

 

Subject: Alinghi

Dear Sir,

 

I found your web page

http://extremehelicopters.net/index.htm

 

Mr Bertarelli is building a very exciting new boat in Villeneuve. You can see some pictures of the assembly building here:

 

http://schnappi.smugmug.com/gallery/791246...524225157_8Xzvt

 

Is it possible for you to fly a helicopter and take some video of the area?

 

Thank you for anything!

 

Xxxxxxxxxxx, Seattle

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