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dacapo

AC33 Feb. 10, 20010

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what say you all??

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Since everyone is playing very hard ball, some place with no wind. Light winds are where CatZilla will have an advantage over the BOR trimaran.

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Since everyone is playing very hard ball, some place with no wind. Light winds are where CatZilla will have an advantage over the BOR trimaran.

That could make it Valencia, in Feb.

 

Mornings are very light, normally.

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I wouldn't mind going to Rio in Feb. Not sure if it is good for racing then, but isn't Carnival during the month that time frame?

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Since everyone is playing very hard ball, some place with no wind. Light winds are where CatZilla will have an advantage over the BOR trimaran.

That could make it Valencia, in Feb.

Mornings are very light, normally.

Perhaps, though if you recall that windspeed website for Valencia we were looking at a few months ago, it seemed to indicate more wind in Feb. than in May, and Butterworth was also quoted as saying the winds in Valencia in February "were not suitable."

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Hawaii has 'Kona' winds in the winter months, fairly light and from the south, not the NE trades.

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Dubai is another possibility. Alinghi had said they would train on Lake Geneva this summer and in Dubai over the winter.

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Cape Town?.. Same time zone as europe, southern hemisphere so aviods DOG concerns and there is a good sea breeze.

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Cape Town?.. Same time zone as europe, southern hemisphere so aviods DOG concerns and there is a good sea breeze.

 

EB's a lake sailor in multi's who's sailied in Valencia.

 

He has multi millions on sailing & designing boats for lakes & Valencia

 

He has a infrastructure in Valencia.

 

He know the politico's & there money in Valencia

 

The weather in Valencia in Feb is gong to be like sailing on a lake.

 

I could go on & on but it's obvious it's Valencia.

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Cape Town?.. Same time zone as europe, southern hemisphere so aviods DOG concerns and there is a good sea breeze.

 

EB's a lake sailor in multi's who's sailied in Valencia.

 

He has a infrastructure in Valencia.

 

He know the politico's & there money in Valencia

 

The weather in Valencia in Feb is gong to be like sailing on a lake.

 

I could go on & on but it's obvious it's Valencia.

 

Unless LE agrees, it cannot be Valencia. Must be SH.

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I could go on & on but it's obvious it's Valencia.

 

I've already booked Valencia - Las Arenas (sea view). Got a helicopter too. Gonna be HUGE!

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Cape Town?.. Same time zone as europe, southern hemisphere so aviods DOG concerns and there is a good sea breeze.

 

EB's a lake sailor in multi's who's sailied in Valencia.

 

He has a infrastructure in Valencia.

 

He know the politico's & there money in Valencia

 

The weather in Valencia in Feb is gong to be like sailing on a lake.

 

I could go on & on but it's obvious it's Valencia.

 

Unless LE agrees, it cannot be Valencia. Must be SH.

 

I think that you're wrong here. Cahn said Valencia or elsewhere by mutual consent didn't he?

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Sure sounds like Valencia.

But what about Joceito's Sardinia rumour?

Wherever there is little to no wind, that is where you should look. Remember, they have seven hours to cover 40 miles. Unless there truly is NO wind, one of these boats is going to be able to get around the buoys in drifting conditions within seven hours. I'm betting one of them could do it with 3kts of wind.

 

If you go back and look at the history of the 19th century races, they didn't wait until the wind filled in and settled down (or the fog lifted, or much of anything) it was off to the races at the appointed date and time. It will be a snoozer, but given what we know about the boats, I think such an outcome is likely.

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Sure sounds like Valencia.

But what about Joceito's Sardinia rumour?

NO NO NO you are not paying attencion 10 th. Feb is winter in the North, it therefore has to held is the Southern hemesphere.

 

and that is why it will go to court agin, dont be to optimistic, yet blind.

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Sure sounds like Valencia.

But what about Joceito's Sardinia rumour?

NO NO NO you are not paying attencion 10 th. Feb is winter in the North, it therefore has to held is the Southern hemesphere.

 

and that is why it will go to court agin, dont be to optimistic, yet blind.

 

Mutual consent on the venue let's them hold it anywhere. Also the court can tell them where to go.

 

It's to SNG advantage to hold it somewhere they have experience w/.

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Cape Town?.. Same time zone as europe, southern hemisphere so aviods DOG concerns and there is a good sea breeze.

 

EB's a lake sailor in multi's who's sailied in Valencia.

 

He has a infrastructure in Valencia.

 

He know the politico's & there money in Valencia

 

The weather in Valencia in Feb is gong to be like sailing on a lake.

 

I could go on & on but it's obvious it's Valencia.

 

Unless LE agrees, it cannot be Valencia. Must be SH.

I'd love to see Larry give Erne$to a big 'stuff you' on the venue.

Just because

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Dalton is saying that his understanding is either Valencia or the SH, unless GGYC agrees a different location. And he doesn't think Alinghi will want to go south. And doesn't see GGYC agreeing any place else north.

 

So the odds heavily favor Valencia. There's lots of nice places to travel to but that AC setup is very hard to beat. I'm glad it's headed this way.

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Sure sounds like Valencia.

But what about Joceito's Sardinia rumour?

NO NO NO you are not paying attencion 10 th. Feb is winter in the North, it therefore has to held is the Southern hemesphere.

 

and that is why it will go to court agin, dont be to optimistic, yet blind.

 

Mutual consent on the venue let's them hold it anywhere. Also the court can tell them where to go.

 

It's to SNG advantage to hold it somewhere they have experience w/.

Good info, thanks, BUT "Mutual consent" now we are having a laugh WHO think that will ever happen (in 33´rd) ??

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You must agree to, that a "Mutual consent" is not likely going to happen (who would risk breaking a boat, before getting to meet the defender??) so in a DOG on feb 10 th. it has to be in the south.......ore else ??????

 

 

 

Back to court.

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Sure sounds like Valencia.

But what about Joceito's Sardinia rumour?

Wherever there is little to no wind, that is where you should look. Remember, they have seven hours to cover 40 miles. Unless there truly is NO wind, one of these boats is going to be able to get around the buoys in drifting conditions within seven hours. I'm betting one of them could do it with 3kts of wind.

 

If you go back and look at the history of the 19th century races, they didn't wait until the wind filled in and settled down (or the fog lifted, or much of anything) it was off to the races at the appointed date and time. It will be a snoozer, but given what we know about the boats, I think such an outcome is likely.

 

 

The race conditions, including lower & upper wind limits to start & cancel, are negotiable & established by mutual consent.

Under 5k to start & under 4k (after a period of perhaps 20 mins) to continue, would likely never be agreed to.

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It really does not matter until the first week of August 2009.

So they wont claim lawsuit until after august 2009, and them delay it from there ???

 

Dont get me wrong, i would love to se it happen ASAP, but after the past two years with eight rulings im not to optimistik.

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So Alinghi have got 6 months before the race to anounce the venue right, so we have to wait until beginning of August till we find out?

Who's going if it's valencia?

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AC33 Feb. 10, 20010, but WHERE???

In court somewhere and probably not the US. A NY court ruling will not prevent EB from remaining consistent when tightly cornered with a nearly-impossible delivery date for an unfinished, complex machine.

 

This debacle has gotten weirder every month since July 2007. There are enough months between now and February 2009 for further weirdness. Buy long-life popcorn. We'll be watching this drama until 2017.

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AC33 Feb. 10, 20010, but WHERE???

In court somewhere and probably not the US. A NY court ruling will not prevent EB from remaining consistent when tightly cornered with a nearly-impossible delivery date for an unfinished, complex machine.

 

This debacle has gotten weirder every month since July 2007. There are enough months between now and February 2010 2009 for further weirdness. Buy long-life popcorn. We'll be watching this drama until 2017.

 

fixed it for you. ;)

de nada. :lol:

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So Alinghi have got 6 months before the race to anounce the venue right, so we have to wait until beginning of August till we find out?

Who's going if it's valencia?

It is Valencia; and I've already booked.

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fixed it for you. ;)

de nada. :lol:

Oops! A Freudian sloop I mean slip.

 

Thanks.

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Since everyone is playing very hard ball, some place with no wind. Light winds are where CatZilla will have an advantage over the BOR trimaran.

Will someone please explain this sailing type question? It is standard wisdom that tris beat cats in light winds because the cat has its two hulls stuck firmly in the water whereas the tri has its weight on one hull with just a slight amount of flotation developed by the leeward ama. they also tack better and I acknowledge these facts despite being a cat owner. Now I know that these AC multis are really in a different realm of reality than ordinary, run of the mill, multihulls, but I still have problems seeing the wetted surface aspect not being a major determinant in very light winds. All the comments about CZ being a cat have tended towards her carrying a lot of sail on each hull, but with the C of E being lower than on a single stick boat, and all of that is surely appropriate to strong winds and lateral stability. So please would someone knowledgeable explain where and why the transition is felt to occur between a cat being slower in light winds and a cat being faster in light winds.

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Since everyone is playing very hard ball, some place with no wind. Light winds are where CatZilla will have an advantage over the BOR trimaran.

Will someone please explain this sailing type question? It is standard wisdom that tris beat cats in light winds because the cat has its two hulls stuck firmly in the water whereas the tri has its weight on one hull with just a slight amount of flotation developed by the leeward ama. they also tack better and I acknowledge these facts despite being a cat owner. Now I know that these AC multis are really in a different realm of reality than ordinary, run of the mill, multihulls, but I still have problems seeing the wetted surface aspect not being a major determinant in very light winds. All the comments about CZ being a cat have tended towards her carrying a lot of sail on each hull, but with the C of E being lower than on a single stick boat, and all of that is surely appropriate to strong winds and lateral stability. So please would someone knowledgeable explain where and why the transition is felt to occur between a cat being slower in light winds and a cat being faster in light winds. And please, a further request, no use of an inappropriate verb as an even more inappropriate adjective.

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Dubai is another possibility. Alinghi had said they would train on Lake Geneva this summer and in Dubai over the winter.

 

Did Alinghi actually say that or was it just in the Seahorse article?

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Dubai is another possibility. Alinghi had said they would train on Lake Geneva this summer and in Dubai over the winter.

 

Did Alinghi actually say that or was it just in the Seahorse article?

I don't remember where I saw that. It may have been the Seahorse article. But, presumably they aren't making things up, so someone from Alinghi must have said something like this in the past few months.

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What Americas Cup??

 

It's a joke now!

 

I will say that when the Cup left the US, there was great hope for the event as it was seen as becoming an International event....although those idiots in NZ started the rot.

Now that those Ratbags in Europe have stolen the true spirit of the cup and created a ridiculous series that carries on so long that by the time the actual Cup is run, there is little or no interest in it.

Not one of my Sailing mates even care any more.........What Cup???

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What Americas Cup??

 

It's a joke now!

 

I will say that when the Cup left the US, there was great hope for the event as it was seen as becoming an International event....although those idiots in NZ started the rot.

Now that those Ratbags in Europe have stolen the true spirit of the cup and created a ridiculous series that carries on so long that by the time the actual Cup is run, there is little or no interest in it.

Not one of my Sailing mates even care any more.........What Cup???

 

You say that now, but i'm sure it'll be a different story come February 10th. I for one am very excited

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Will someone please explain this sailing type question? It is standard wisdom that tris beat cats in light winds because the cat has its two hulls stuck firmly in the water whereas the tri has its weight on one hull with just a slight amount of flotation developed by the leeward ama. they also tack better and I acknowledge these facts despite being a cat owner....

 

 

If you limit it to very expensive racing boats without accommodation, it was standard wisdom that trimarans were better in light winds; but that hasn't been the case (among a handful of fastest boats) on Lake Leman for some 10 years now. Before that, the tris enjoyed about a decade of being the fastest type of boat. But then the designers made (very expensive) catamarans that were much beamier and lighter; Or at least a lot lighter, with racks added on. As soon as there is enough wind to move at all, these cats are on one hull or close to it, and any heavier trimarans are left behind.

But with more everyday boats, needing space below and loaded with equipment, then trimarans still have the advantage over cats. And in ocean racing the trimarans have a near-total dominance, because they are more practical/inexpensive than equally beamy cats would be, and they far easier and safer to sail shorthanded.

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Sure sounds like Valencia.

But what about Joceito's Sardinia rumour?

Wherever there is little to no wind, that is where you should look. Remember, they have seven hours to cover 40 miles. Unless there truly is NO wind, one of these boats is going to be able to get around the buoys in drifting conditions within seven hours. I'm betting one of them could do it with 3kts of wind.

 

If you go back and look at the history of the 19th century races, they didn't wait until the wind filled in and settled down (or the fog lifted, or much of anything) it was off to the races at the appointed date and time. It will be a snoozer, but given what we know about the boats, I think such an outcome is likely.

 

Realistic minimum wind speed to cover a 40nm windward leeward is about 4 knots.

 

I am certain that DZ will not suffer in the 4-6 knot wind range.

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I disagree with you on one point, does Orange "catamaran" hold the arround the world record?

I don't think a trimaran has held the around the world record for some time.

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I disagree with you on one point, does Orange "catamaran" hold the arround the world record?

I don't think a trimaran has held the around the world record for some time.

 

True enough, but that is not a reflection of light air speed.

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Sure sounds like Valencia.

But what about Joceito's Sardinia rumour?

Wherever there is little to no wind, that is where you should look. Remember, they have seven hours to cover 40 miles. Unless there truly is NO wind, one of these boats is going to be able to get around the buoys in drifting conditions within seven hours. I'm betting one of them could do it with 3kts of wind.

 

If you go back and look at the history of the 19th century races, they didn't wait until the wind filled in and settled down (or the fog lifted, or much of anything) it was off to the races at the appointed date and time. It will be a snoozer, but given what we know about the boats, I think such an outcome is likely.

 

Realistic minimum wind speed to cover a 40nm windward leeward is about 4 knots.

 

I am certain that DZ will not suffer in the 4-6 knot wind range.

 

Ding ding ding.

 

If Alinghi tries to "outdrift" DogZilla, they will be massively dissapointed. We saw DZ get up and go quite nicely in 8 knots true, and that was with the smaller rig.

 

Further, the 8AM start time scenario is foolish as 4-6kts at the start doesn't mean 4-6kts throughout the race.

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Sure sounds like Valencia.

But what about Joceito's Sardinia rumour?

Wherever there is little to no wind, that is where you should look. Remember, they have seven hours to cover 40 miles. Unless there truly is NO wind, one of these boats is going to be able to get around the buoys in drifting conditions within seven hours. I'm betting one of them could do it with 3kts of wind.

 

If you go back and look at the history of the 19th century races, they didn't wait until the wind filled in and settled down (or the fog lifted, or much of anything) it was off to the races at the appointed date and time. It will be a snoozer, but given what we know about the boats, I think such an outcome is likely.

 

Realistic minimum wind speed to cover a 40nm windward leeward is about 4 knots.

 

I am certain that DZ will not suffer in the 4-6 knot wind range.

 

Ding ding ding.

 

If Alinghi tries to "outdrift" DogZilla, they will be massively dissapointed. We saw DZ get up and go quite nicely in 8 knots true, and that was with the smaller rig.

 

Further, the 8AM start time scenario is foolish as 4-6kts at the start doesn't mean 4-6kts throughout the race.

Physics is physics. If Alinghi can build a Cat that is light enough to fly a hull when DZ still has the main hull in the water, they will sail away. But I tend to think these boats will be closer in performance than people think. I'm looking forward to finding out.

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Sure sounds like Valencia.

But what about Joceito's Sardinia rumour?

Wherever there is little to no wind, that is where you should look. Remember, they have seven hours to cover 40 miles. Unless there truly is NO wind, one of these boats is going to be able to get around the buoys in drifting conditions within seven hours. I'm betting one of them could do it with 3kts of wind.

 

If you go back and look at the history of the 19th century races, they didn't wait until the wind filled in and settled down (or the fog lifted, or much of anything) it was off to the races at the appointed date and time. It will be a snoozer, but given what we know about the boats, I think such an outcome is likely.

 

Realistic minimum wind speed to cover a 40nm windward leeward is about 4 knots.

 

I am certain that DZ will not suffer in the 4-6 knot wind range.

 

Ding ding ding.

 

If Alinghi tries to "outdrift" DogZilla, they will be massively dissapointed. We saw DZ get up and go quite nicely in 8 knots true, and that was with the smaller rig.

 

Further, the 8AM start time scenario is foolish as 4-6kts at the start doesn't mean 4-6kts throughout the race.

Physics is physics. If Alinghi can build a Cat that is light enough to fly a hull when DZ still has the main hull in the water, they will sail away. But I tend to think these boats will be closer in performance than people think. I'm looking forward to finding out.

 

Do you really think BOR can't put enough sail area on DZ to get it up on one hull in any breeze that is sailable by CZ?

 

And they would be in the superior position when the wind inevitably climbed as they would have greater righting moment than the theoretical superlight CZ.

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Sure sounds like Valencia.

But what about Joceito's Sardinia rumour?

Wherever there is little to no wind, that is where you should look. Remember, they have seven hours to cover 40 miles. Unless there truly is NO wind, one of these boats is going to be able to get around the buoys in drifting conditions within seven hours. I'm betting one of them could do it with 3kts of wind.

 

If you go back and look at the history of the 19th century races, they didn't wait until the wind filled in and settled down (or the fog lifted, or much of anything) it was off to the races at the appointed date and time. It will be a snoozer, but given what we know about the boats, I think such an outcome is likely.

 

Realistic minimum wind speed to cover a 40nm windward leeward is about 4 knots.

 

I am certain that DZ will not suffer in the 4-6 knot wind range.

 

Ding ding ding.

 

If Alinghi tries to "outdrift" DogZilla, they will be massively dissapointed. We saw DZ get up and go quite nicely in 8 knots true, and that was with the smaller rig.

 

Further, the 8AM start time scenario is foolish as 4-6kts at the start doesn't mean 4-6kts throughout the race.

Physics is physics. If Alinghi can build a Cat that is light enough to fly a hull when DZ still has the main hull in the water, they will sail away. But I tend to think these boats will be closer in performance than people think. I'm looking forward to finding out.

 

How about narrow enough rather than light enough, with wide racks and enough crew, or water ballast pumps,to hold it down if the wind does pick up faster than they would like.

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I disagree with you on one point, does Orange "catamaran" hold the arround the world record?

I don't think a trimaran has held the around the world record for some time.

 

True enough, but that is not a reflection of light air speed.

 

Agreed. Indeed, an analysis of RTW multis on the Multihulls mailing list came to the conclusion that for fully crewed boats for RTW races the crucial factor was available funds. For a given sum a cat could be built longer than a tri, and for the conditions met in RTW events the longer, fully crewed, cat would be faster than a shorter tri. Hence Orange 2. For single or short handed events the tri was better than the cat, so much so that higher costs were not important. Hence the ORMA 60's, B & Q, IDEC and Sodebo. But neither of these considerations apply to the AC. It has been pointed out that if the Swiss Lake cats can get enough wind to fly a hull they are away and faster than the tris, I gather that if the wind is not fast enough for that to happen the tris might get the edge back?? But these are 35 foot jobs, not 90 or 115 footers. I believe the expression here is "It's a whole new ball game". It will be very interesting to see what these top flight designers come up with for Cheezilla, knowing in advance what venue will be chosen. The racing may not be as exciting, this time around, as the close quarter dueling in close winded, relatively slow monohulls, has been in the past, but I, for one, believe the AC should be raced in the fastest boats, and that means multihulls. Not everyone is keen to see a return to the past despite what has been asserted on another post n AC Anarchy.

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Odd that 12m's in Newport is starting to look like the golden age of cup racing.

 

I vote for LE. Oddly, methinks the US will handle it better than this BS.

 

I only check in on cup stuff when Scot puts it on the front page.

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I find it odd, how everyone is discussing the venue selection issue as though that decission wasn't already made months before CZ's hulls were built. Surely, they (SNG) already new where they wan't to defend? Or, did they design and build a couple of hulls that have yet to be moved in with the chair and are now trying to find a venue to suit?

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So how would this look in 90 x 90?

 

post-34289-1242374753_thumb.jpg

 

like a crane lying on it's side after having fallen from a building and dragging the scaffolding with it

 

but seriously how many monkey's are you going to need running about on that thing to keep it in trim and even after a year of working that out you are going to have to try to take it upwind, downwind and around markers...

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Valencia could turn out to be an interesting venue in FEB. Especially if it's towards the end of the month where you enter into the transitional period leading up to the spring equinox (21st MARCH). The winds quite often scream out of the north at anything between 20 and 50 knots. That is going to be fun as the bay of Valencia is sheltered from the building seas (it's flat) but has the extra tittilating factor of the winds accellerating down through the mountain passes at anything up to 70 knots. I reckon there's going to be a few different rigs towed along to fit the different conditions.

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I wonder what the top wind speed they would actually have a match (would be very very interesting to see the beasts race in some heavy air) but really I think they would be wanted to cancel any race if the wind was over 20-25knots lol

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Valencia could turn out to be an interesting venue in FEB. Especially if it's towards the end of the month where you enter into the transitional period leading up to the spring equinox (21st MARCH). The winds quite often scream out of the north at anything between 20 and 50 knots. That is going to be fun as the bay of Valencia is sheltered from the building seas (it's flat) but has the extra tittilating factor of the winds accellerating down through the mountain passes at anything up to 70 knots. I reckon there's going to be a few different rigs towed along to fit the different conditions.

 

 

Shite :blink: imagine the dile-up , they'll be starting from miles away .

 

BRING IT NOW :angry:

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Alinghi can't choose a venue. Cahn ordered Valencia on Feb 10, 2010 which was confirmed by the court in Albany. That can only be changed if GGYC agree or get themsleves dsq'd.

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I thought I'd better clarify my last post. When I said that the winds come through the mountain passes at anything up to 70 knots, that's what I meant. "Anything up to"" What actually happens is that the gusts hit you from above and not parallel to the sea. I've been sailing quite happilly in 25-30 knots of NNW wind and next moment my ass in in the sea and the mast is trying a bit of whale harpooning. The only warning is a few flutters on the water a couple of hundred metres away, and by that time it's too late. I'd love to see the dog and cat handle it without complaints. After all, in the old days the boats had to travel on their own bottoms to get to the venue. 25 knots and it's too much...... "Fuck Off". Get out there you wanky billionastards. Sail the fucker and to hell with the quincequonces. And even if you are second best,,, we'll say. " you are men my sons".

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25 knots and it's too much...... "Fuck Off". Get out there you wanky billionastards. Sail the fucker and to hell with the quincequonces. And even if you are second best,,, we'll say. " you are men my sons".

 

haha awesome :)

 

Seems like they should race no matter what the winds, pick the venue and show up and go!

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From memory, The DOG allows each boat to call a lay day when needed. (Could be wrong though)

 

Whats the bet that this AC takes 3 months to compleet as each boat calls a lay day when conditons arnt right

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From memory, The DOG allows each boat to call a lay day when needed. (Could be wrong though)

 

Whats the bet that this AC takes 3 months to compleet as each boat calls a lay day when conditons arnt right

There is no mention of "lay day" in the DoG

 

Link to DoG

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Alinghi can't choose a venue. Cahn ordered Valencia on Feb 10, 2010 which was confirmed by the court in Albany. That can only be changed if GGYC agree or get themsleves dsq'd.

 

post-27927-1242394391_thumb.jpg

 

What part of this Order from Cahn says SNG can only choose Valencia??

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25 knots and it's too much...... "Fuck Off". Get out there you wanky billionastards. Sail the fucker and to hell with the quincequonces. And even if you are second best,,, we'll say. " you are men my sons".

 

haha awesome :)

 

Seems like they should race no matter what the winds, pick the venue and show up and go!

Of course they should. It's a competition of the best boat and the best team. If the boat fucks up then tough shit. If the crew fucks up then ditto.

All this "not enough or too much" wind is bullshit (within limits) but anything between 8 knots and 40 knots is within (Seaworthy) boat limits. If they can't handle the upper limits of 40+ Kn then they should pack up and go home because the boat is not actually a seaworthy vessel and under such limitations would not be given a "Seaworthy (offshore) " certificate under the naval authorities of most countries worldwide. In fact they wouldn't even pass the "Inshore " category limits as a seaworthy vessel.

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25 knots and it's too much...... "Fuck Off". Get out there you wanky billionastards. Sail the fucker and to hell with the quincequonces. And even if you are second best,,, we'll say. " you are men my sons".

 

haha awesome :)

 

Seems like they should race no matter what the winds, pick the venue and show up and go!

Of course they should. It's a competition of the best boat and the best team. If the boat fucks up then tough shit. If the crew fucks up then ditto.

All this "not enough or too much" wind is bullshit (within limits) but anything between 8 knots and 40 knots is within (Seaworthy) boat limits. If they can't handle the upper limits of 40+ Kn then they should pack up and go home because the boat is not actually a seaworthy vessel and under such limitations would not be given a "Seaworthy (offshore) " certificate under the naval authorities of most countries worldwide. In fact they wouldn't even pass the "Inshore " category limits as a seaworthy vessel.

Yeah right, take the last generation boats out in 40 knots and see how long they last!!

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25 knots and it's too much...... "Fuck Off". Get out there you wanky billionastards. Sail the fucker and to hell with the quincequonces. And even if you are second best,,, we'll say. " you are men my sons".

 

haha awesome :)

 

Seems like they should race no matter what the winds, pick the venue and show up and go!

Of course they should. It's a competition of the best boat and the best team. If the boat fucks up then tough shit. If the crew fucks up then ditto.

All this "not enough or too much" wind is bullshit (within limits) but anything between 8 knots and 40 knots is within (Seaworthy) boat limits. If they can't handle the upper limits of 40+ Kn then they should pack up and go home because the boat is not actually a seaworthy vessel and under such limitations would not be given a "Seaworthy (offshore) " certificate under the naval authorities of most countries worldwide. In fact they wouldn't even pass the "Inshore " category limits as a seaworthy vessel.

Yeah right, take the last generation boats out in 40 knots and see how long they last!!

Exactly. If they put limits on the outside limits and circumstances of the vessel then it is no longer a yacht race. It is a tactical decision against the elements. I'd personally like to see the next AC starting with; all entries to complete a 450 mile passage race from a point 450 miles or similar from the port of the AC regatta. All boats to complete including the defender. All sea and weather conditions must be withstood with no regress to protest comitees or similar. All finishers must race the competition in their passage race configuration with the exception of pipe berths and galley arrangements

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Alinghi can't choose a venue. Cahn ordered Valencia on Feb 10, 2010 which was confirmed by the court in Albany. That can only be changed if GGYC agree or get themsleves dsq'd.

 

post-27927-1242394391_thumb.jpg

 

What part of this Order from Cahn says SNG can only choose Valencia??

 

 

Ok. My bad.

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Playing with Gusmus's idea, what would happen if Alinghi said that AC33 was to take place at Point Nemo, or the Oceanic Pole of Inaccessibility? Which is in the depths of the Southern Ocean.

 

600px-Oceanic_pole_of_inaccessibility.png

 

It's free of headlands and shallows, so it's Deed Compliant, and being in the Southern Hemisphere it gets around the date constraints.

 

It would also make delivering a boat by any means than under its own power impractical. The BOR90 is too wide to travel on anything short of a Panamax cargo ship. But they don't have a crane, which makes it difficult to launch the boat, making a monster offshore construction vessel the only real option...

 

Or just sail her down. :)

 

And that's before the issues of whether these inshore can cope with "an Ocean course"...

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I say let em race with the dingos on Lake Eyre in South Australia... golden opportunity, since the last time it filled before this year is 2004

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Actually I was thinking in the lines of , a bit more,,, or less,,, normal. If the race port is Valencia, then start the delivery race in Lisbon or Vega. No stops, and no assistence. If you get to Valencia you are in the AC. If you don't, then Bye Bye., and that includes the defender. If the boat isn't up to scratch then it isn't a boat,,, it's a recycling project for some sixth year students.

1) Prove it's seaworthy

2) Sail it in whatever the conditions happen on the day (within reason).

3) Make it fair for everyone with an independant jury in charge of the competition..

 

I honestly think that a slower match race boat will give the spectator and the crews much more enjoyment over the course and will also give the officials more leeway over the course to set. Take , for example, a 30Kt tri and a 30Kt cat in a match race,,,, the race is in the start box. These beasts will be uncontrollable in the same box, so it will be almost a "gate" start. First one over and then afollow the leader for two laps. Spectacular it may be,,, for those who can see it... But it ain't the AC.

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I say let em race with the dingos on Lake Eyre in South Australia... golden opportunity, since the last time it filled before this year is 2004

 

 

Think about what sort of venues the AC has been sailed on in AC history. SNG goes too wild they will not do well in court. The venue is not a chess piece or a weapon.

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I say let em race with the dingos on Lake Eyre in South Australia... golden opportunity, since the last time it filled before this year is 2004

 

 

Think about what sort of venues the AC has been sailed on in AC history. SNG goes too wild they will not do well in court. The venue is not a chess piece or a weapon.

 

The whole thing, the lot of it ... using the terms of the deed as weapons to gain advantage was never intended.

 

Constructed in the country does not mean "designed, built and litigated" ...

 

The only reason that the default conditions exist at all is to STOP argument, not create it. The Clubs were to reach agreement *first*, then challenge on those terms ... not challenge first, then argue.

 

If the Club wishing to Challenge could not get the Club holding the Cup to agree to terms, the Challenge was to be issued under the default terms. The time for negotiation, argument, and litigation was passed and no longer open for discussion.

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I think it bears repeating:

 

"Ordered that the location of the match shall be in Valencia, Spain or any other location selected by SNG, provided SNG notify GGYC in writing not less than six months in advance of the date set..."

 

There is, apparently, NO need for mutual consent.

 

If EB is greedy, then Valencia. There is lots of financial help for hosting there.

 

But tactically, the door is wide open. SNG has been green lighted to host anywhere in the world. That is a huge advantage. If it was me, I would host someplace as diametrically opposed to Valencia. Big seas, big current, big breeze. I'd be looking at windguru and Reed's, looking for wind against current at 8am, with an historically high probability of gale conditions for Feb. 10. Build a tank and let Oracle break up. 40kts and 15 ft seas...I don't think Dogzilla could even boat out. It would be poor sportmanship, but there is an unmistakable advantage that can't be ignored.

 

Just imagine this scenario for a second...

 

Alinghi launch a massive Le Black II on July 1 and begin training. Alinghi then files a motion for DSQ because of a lack of CHR, reasoning that Alinghi has launched their boat and ASAP has expired. BMWO sees the Le Black II, and fearing the ASAP ruling from the judge, they commit to Dogzilla and issue a CHR. Then Aug. 10th SNG announces, say, the northern tip of Denmark. SNG is under no obligation to race on Le Black II, or any particular boat (as long as it is Deed compliant). SNG arrives Feb 10th with a bomb proof V70. What do you do if you're BWMO?

 

Oracle may have given the match away by not agreeing to May in Valencia.

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SNG arrives Feb 10th with a bomb proof V70. What do you do if you're BWMO?

 

That is the funniest thing ever posted in this forum!

 

bomb proof V70?

 

I'll take a kilo of whatever it is you smoke.

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Ok, you want to nitpick, then not a bomb proof V70. But an overbuilt offshore performance monohull, under 90ft. You get my point.

 

I don't think my dealer sells kilos. I'll ask though. I usually buy a dime bag at a time.

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Ok, you want to nitpick, then not a bomb proof V70. But an overbuilt offshore performance monohull, under 90ft. You get my point.

 

I don't think my dealer sells kilos. I'll ask though. I usually buy a dime bag at a time.

 

Yes the point was good, it is just thinking that a V70 is bomb proof gave me a good chuckle ...

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Ok, you want to nitpick, then not a bomb proof V70. But an overbuilt offshore performance monohull, under 90ft. You get my point.

 

I don't think my dealer sells kilos. I'll ask though. I usually buy a dime bag at a time.

 

 

Yes provided they take their anchors & have good map for showing shelter.

 

We have Dial a Dope up here but you have to wear a bulletproof vest anywere near the drug trade. Open season on that vertical market. Really sad :(

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That was roughly my point with using Point Nemo: The Swiss could come up with a location that's unsuitable for Dogzilla.

 

It's just that mine was a really extreme example. :)

 

The other thing to bear in mind is that the measurement certificate gives the maximum dimensions for the Challenger. So Larry can't just phone up Ken Read and ask to borrow Il Mostro, as her draft would be too great. With a six month notice period, Oracle probably couldn't build an offshore capable boat either.

 

Alinghi have a big advantage here.

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Even if a conservative location is picked, I don't expect mutual consent on wind speed limits, either. Unless the arbitrator does a fantastic job, I expect this feud to preclude ANY mutual consent. The Deed doesn't seem to address wind limits, only time limits. These boats should be able to sail in what most yachts would consider becalmed conditions, so that is moot. In a blow, I think it becomes a choice between forfeiting and attrition.

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"...not less than six months..."

 

So between now and Aug 10th they can declare anywhere they want, as long as they tell Oracle in writing. If they fail to specify someplace other than Valencia by Aug 10th, then presumably they are locked into Valencia.

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There is a huge lake right by my base in Iraq. It is windy as hell here, but I don't know how well they will like racing in body armor and helmets. Who's to say we don't have fun out here though...

post-35864-1242505713_thumb.jpg

 

BTW it is a non-alcoholic Coor's for those who care about these things.

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I'd like to hear what Ted Turner, the last true amateur to win the Cup has to say about these assholes who have turned the Cup into a spittoon.

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Odd that 12m's in Newport is starting to look like the golden age of cup racing.

 

I vote for LE. Oddly, methinks the US will handle it better than this BS.

 

I only check in on cup stuff when Scot puts it on the front page.

You mean the good old days when Britain ruled the waves and America waived the rules?

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While he told Justice Kornreich that the race might be held in Valencia, Alinghi lawyer Barry Ostrager told me by telephone a few days later that “there will be a race in the northern hemisphere in February, but it won’t be Valencia.”

 

Eric Sharp / Detroit Free Press "America's Cup battle likely far from over"

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While he told Justice Kornreich that the race might be held in Valencia, Alinghi lawyer Barry Ostrager told me by telephone a few days later that “there will be a race in the northern hemisphere in February, but it won’t be Valencia.”

 

Eric Sharp / Detroit Free Press "America's Cup battle likely far from over"

 

Red herring ? -

 

"While he told Justice Kornreich that the race might be held in Valencia, Alinghi lawyer Barry Ostrager told me by telephone a few days later that “there will be a race in the northern hemisphere in February, but it won’t be Valencia.”

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While he told Justice Kornreich that the race might be held in Valencia, Alinghi lawyer Barry Ostrager told me by telephone a few days later that "there will be a race in the northern hemisphere in February, but it won't be Valencia."

 

Eric Sharp / Detroit Free Press "America's Cup battle likely far from over"

 

Red herring ? -

 

"While he told Justice Kornreich that the race might be held in Valencia, Alinghi lawyer Barry Ostrager told me by telephone a few days later that "there will be a race in the northern hemisphere in February, but it won't be Valencia."

Let the record show that those of us not in the know have been predicting Dubai for a while now. <_<

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after reading the transcript i think it will be valencia

 

and am presuming that the good barry knew that once the transcript came out that would become apparent and so immediately started lying so as to not dilute sng's power of choice argument over bmwo and hopefully force them into compromises in the rebuild of dogzilla

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MAHGUAH SAY --GOT A QUESTION--

 

IF SNG HAS THE AC IN VALENCIA - LETS SAY-

 

SPAIN IS THE LEGAL VENUE? AND DOES SPAIN'S SEA [TERRITORIAL] CLAIMS ALLOW THE AC CIRCUIT TO BE RUN WITHIN ITS -S T ?

 

LAW OF THE SEA TREATY? 12 MILES- AND SEE BELOW-

 

The 1958 Convention on the Territorial Sea and Contiguous Zone provided that states cannot suspend the innocent passage of foreign ships through straits that are used for international navigation between one part of the high seas and another part of the high seas or the territorial sea of a foreign state. The 1982 treaty established a new right of transit passage for the purpose of continuous and expeditious transit in straits used for international navigation between one part of the high seas or exclusive economic zone and another.

 

 

ALSO THERES THE DEPTH REQUIREMENTS IN THE D OF G-

 

""All such races shall be on ocean courses, free from headlands, as follows: The first race, twenty nautical miles to windward and return; the second race an equilateral triangular race of thirty-nine nautical miles, the first side of which shall be a beat to windward; the third race (if necessary) twenty nautical miles to windward and return;

 

and one week day shall intervene between the conclusion of one race and the starting of the next race. These ocean courses shall be practicable in all parts for vessels of twenty-two feet draught of water, and shall be selected by the Club holding the Cup; and these races shall be sailed subject to its rules and sailing regulations so far as the same do not conflict with the provisions of this deed of gift, but without any times allowances whatever.

 

The challenged Club shall not be required to name its representative vessel until at a time agreed upon for the start, but the vessel when named must compete in all the races, and each of such races must be completed within seven hours.""

 

 

OK BEFORE YOU START OVER RE--ACTING

 

JUST LAYOUT THE D OF G REQ'S RACE COURSE AND TELL ME OR SHOW ME?

 

HOW AC CAN BE DONE THERE? LEGALLY AND DONT FORGET THE VENUE IS MORE THAN YOU THINK-

 

SEE LEGAL DEFINE AND REMEMBER "VENUE " IS NOT A WORD OR TERM USED IN D OF G-ON THIS--

 

NOTE- WHATEVER HAPPENED BEFORE REALLY DOSENT MATTER-

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While he told Justice Kornreich that the race might be held in Valencia, Alinghi lawyer Barry Ostrager told me by telephone a few days later that “there will be a race in the northern hemisphere in February, but it won’t be Valencia.”

 

Eric Sharp / Detroit Free Press "America's Cup battle likely far from over"

 

Red herring ? -

 

"While he told Justice Kornreich that the race might be held in Valencia, Alinghi lawyer Barry Ostrager told me by telephone a few days later that “there will be a race in the northern hemisphere in February, but it won’t be Valencia.”

Ostrager also said in the last court hearing that "SNG was absolutely committed to a race in the Northern hemisphere." As far as I can tell, the only way they can satisfy the court's order, and meet the DoG requirements is to race in Valencia. I would think that their silly arguments have painted themselves in to a corner.

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MAHGUAH SAY --GOT A QUESTION--

 

IF SNG HAS THE AC IN VALENCIA - LETS SAY-

 

SPAIN IS THE LEGAL VENUE? AND DOES SPAIN'S SEA [TERRITORIAL] CLAIMS ALLOW THE AC CIRCUIT TO BE RUN WITHIN ITS -S T ?

 

LAW OF THE SEA TREATY? 12 MILES- AND SEE BELOW-

 

The 1958 Convention on the Territorial Sea and Contiguous Zone provided that states cannot suspend the innocent passage of foreign ships through straits that are used for international navigation between one part of the high seas and another part of the high seas or the territorial sea of a foreign state. The 1982