Jim Donovan

20+ Footer - Building in Hawaii

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very clever, thanks for sharing that bit of kit for rail fairing, could work with interchangeable face/boards for different surfaces.

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Glassed the sheer last Saturday and have been faring it the past week. Should be ready for primer today.

Getting very trired of looking at micro balloons - the current brown and white color scheme is hideous!

 

I've built the spinnaker sheet sheeve boxes into the transom, and started the recess for the jib track.

Today I need to build some spacers to support the outboard ends of the jib track, and glue up sopme foam for the mainsheet traveler beam.

 

I'll start doing the dry-fit and reinforcements for the rest of the deck hardware next week.

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Almost finished with sheer fairing - just need to sand starboard side and then a coat of primer to see what needs any more attention.

Added foam wedges at outboard ends of jib tracks.

Could have made the foredeck flat to avoid the recess, etc., but it would have been heavier than the cambered deck.

As it is the fordeck is quite light and a little flexible due the very large span, so I might need a beam to help it out.

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F'ing cool! this would not happen to be for lewis? Any chance you will have it floating in feb when the moth circus comes to town?

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F'ing cool! this would not happen to be for lewis? Any chance you will have it floating in feb when the moth circus comes to town?

 

 

Not for Lewis - building this boat to race in Kaneohe Bay.

 

Still need to get the rig repaired & build the boom, keel and rudder, along with some other jobs that need my attention - so likely later than February

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Moth Regatta is in Feb, Jim's completion date is April so I would say not. We would be glad to host a Moth Tour of the Shop as the hull should be completed by then (right Jim?) and it will be blades, Mast, and Hardware then. We had a great time hosting the Moths last year at KYC and look forward to having you back. We're hosting Pacific Cup Finish in July and I-14 Pac Rims in October as well so it's going to be a fun year at KYC. Aloha.

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Every year is a fun year at KYC !

 

As a proud WYC member, I have to say the KYC is a great club.

 

But yes, looking at the 2010 schedule it does look like you've got a bit on !

 

Boat's lookin' sweet Jim, I hope to get by over the weekend if you're in town.

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1st application of primer on sheer yesterday - needs a few minor touch-ups, but generally very good.

Still have to flip the boat and fair the hull bottom, but want to dry-fit all the deck gear first.

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Final pieces of deck "structure completed; main and jib traveler beams.

These are carbon with a covering layer of E-glass DB.

The beam laminates are quite stiff - lots of carbon UDs running along under the tracks, with more carbon UDs bonding down to the deck.

The UDs for the main traveler turn the corner and go up the cockpit side (into a shallow recess in the panel that should fair out smooth) to lock the ends of the beam down

Same thing in reverse for the jib traveler. with the carbon UD's turning down and bonded directly to the sheer laminate.

 

Each beam has chunks of 6mm thick glass plate buried in the foam at every traveler fastener. I'll drill and add helicoil inserts into these plates.

This way I avoid through bolting the travelers (no leaks or nuts to scrap against on the underside of the deck)

 

 

I have quite good photos of these inserts getting installed prior to the carbon laminate, but these are trapped on my phone that has decided to forget how to link up to my computer.

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Jib Traveler is straight across middle section, and then radiused outboard.

This accomplishes two things:

 

Lets me move the traveler aft more before it runs into the mast, giving a longer jib foot dimension.

 

As the car slide across the centerline in a tack, the car gets closer to the forestay so the jib sheet goes a little bit slack and the car runs freely.

 

It's pouring rain right now in Kaneohe - maybe we'll get some sunshine later?

It's 7:20 AM and time to enjoy Christmas Day!

 

Mele Kalikimaka / Aloha

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I might be wrong but i think if the track was oriented more normal to the axis of travel it might be a good thing. It seems like there would be a lot of torque on the the harken track and i have had issues sometimes with those when they are loaded up normal...

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Do you just drill and epoxy the Helicoil inserts in or do you need to somehow glass them into the foam? When you say chuncks of 6mm glass, does that mean multiple layers on top of each other where each screw will go? If yes, roughly how thick did you make them? I have a similar project, not nearly as cool, but a build of foam and glass and I was wondering what to put where the fasteners would go. Boat looks great!

 

 

Final pieces of deck "structure completed; main and jib traveler beams.

These are carbon with a covering layer of E-glass DB.

The beam laminates are quite stiff - lots of carbon UDs running along under the tracks, with more carbon UDs bonding down to the deck.

The UDs for the main traveler turn the corner and go up the cockpit side (into a shallow recess in the panel that should fair out smooth) to lock the ends of the beam down

Same thing in reverse for the jib traveler. with the carbon UD's turning down and bonded directly to the sheer laminate.

 

Each beam has chunks of 6mm thick glass plate buried in the foam at every traveler fastener. I'll drill and add helicoil inserts into these plates.

This way I avoid through bolting the travelers (no leaks or nuts to scrap against on the underside of the deck)

 

 

I have quite good photos of these inserts getting installed prior to the carbon laminate, but these are trapped on my phone that has decided to forget how to link up to my computer.

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Do you just drill and epoxy the Helicoil inserts in or do you need to somehow glass them into the foam? When you say chuncks of 6mm glass, does that mean multiple layers on top of each other where each screw will go? If yes, roughly how thick did you make them? I have a similar project, not nearly as cool, but a build of foam and glass and I was wondering what to put where the fasteners would go. Boat looks great!

 

Thanks Will - I'm emailing the photos stuck on my phone from my phone to my laptop, so I should have a these to help explain the method in a few minutes

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Do you just drill and epoxy the Helicoil inserts in or do you need to somehow glass them into the foam? When you say chuncks of 6mm glass, does that mean multiple layers on top of each other where each screw will go? If yes, roughly how thick did you make them? I have a similar project, not nearly as cool, but a build of foam and glass and I was wondering what to put where the fasteners would go. Boat looks great!

 

Thanks Will - I'm emailing the photos stuck on my phone from my phone to my laptop, so I should have a these to help explain the method in a few minutes

 

Here are the photos - maybe these will help.

 

I'm getting some "looks" for holdong up the Christmas Day activities, so I'll post a more detailed explanation later

 

Aloha

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Do you just drill and epoxy the Helicoil inserts in or do you need to somehow glass them into the foam? When you say chuncks of 6mm glass, does that mean multiple layers on top of each other where each screw will go? If yes, roughly how thick did you make them? I have a similar project, not nearly as cool, but a build of foam and glass and I was wondering what to put where the fasteners would go. Boat looks great!

 

Thanks Will - I'm emailing the photos stuck on my phone from my phone to my laptop, so I should have a these to help explain the method in a few minutes

 

Here are the photos - maybe these will help.

 

I'm getting some "looks" for holdong up the Christmas Day activities, so I'll post a more detailed explanation later

 

Aloha

 

That didn't take long - "interesting" with the parrot in the middle of things helping unwrap everything.

Got that 4 1/4" Porter Cable trim saw I've always wanted - perfect for getting into tight boat spaces and cutting foam sheets.

 

Okay, inserts for traveler tracks:

 

I made piece of quasi-laminate e-glass plate, approx 6mm (1/4") thick.

Quasi-laminate simply means the laminate has equal quantity of fibers on all axis; 0, 90, +45, -45.

My plate was made of 12 layers of 12oz material.

 

Each insert is approx 50mm x 25mm.

 

I hollowed out a recess at each fastener location in the foam base and/or deck.

These are little tricky to do, but after the first 18 recesses for the jib track, I got much quikcer and accurate.

This is why I posted photos of the main traveler

 

I used a barrel grinder (looks like a dremel tool on steroids @10,000 rpm) with a wood cutting cylinder shaped bit.

This grinder will destroy foam if not carefully guided and restrained - best to practice before going at the boat (I practiced on a scrap bit of foam).

 

Each insert was glued into the foam with some high density (404) filler.

 

The laminate was applied over the inserts, so the carbon captures each insert.

When it comes time to attach the tracks, I'll simply drill into the beam until I penetrate the insert (approx 10mm deep), then install a helicoil - no glue necessary.

I like to put a dab of epoxy on the fasteners when I put the tracks in like this - the fastener will never back out. You can get them out by heating the fastener with a soldering iron which will soften the epoxy enough to allow extraction.

If you're attaching a fitting that will need to be removed, use a bit of thread lock (lock-tight) on the fastener.

 

Okay - here comes the BIG WARNING!

This method for my track attachment places all the load on the laminate bond to the exterior skin of the deck.

There is potential for the beam either ripping the deck laminate off the core, or just peeling off the deck completely.

You need to be sure that the deck structure can take the loads and that the beam attachment stresses are low enough to allow this method.

This is not a reccommended method for novices or faint-hearted.

I've made thsi style of attachment many, many times on much higher loaded fittings, so feel confident this will work well for this little boat.

 

A through-bolt with a proper backing plate is a much more bullet-proof attachment.

Or you can elimniate the core at the fitting and replace the core with sloid glass plate.

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I might be wrong but i think if the track was oriented more normal to the axis of travel it might be a good thing. It seems like there would be a lot of torque on the the harken track and i have had issues sometimes with those when they are loaded up normal...

 

I'm using a jib sheet arrangement popular on big boats, that gets the load almost vertical to the track.

The jib sheet enters mast 18 feet above deck, and gets double ended in mast, exits the mast below and is lead aft to cleats in cockpit.

The jib sheet will be 3mm dyneema outside the rig to minimize friction and windage.

 

This gets the jib sheet easily in reach of both the crew and helmsman.

I can have either 2 or 4:1 on the sheet (4:1 shown on image).

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I might be wrong but i think if the track was oriented more normal to the axis of travel it might be a good thing. It seems like there would be a lot of torque on the the harken track and i have had issues sometimes with those when they are loaded up normal...

 

I'm using a jib sheet arrangement popular on big boats, that gets the load almost vertical to the track.

The jib sheet enters mast 18 feet above deck, and gets double ended in mast, exits the mast below and is lead aft to cleats in cockpit.

The jib sheet will be 3mm dyneema outside the rig to minimize friction and windage.

 

This gets the jib sheet easily in reach of both the crew and helmsman.

I can have either 2 or 4:1 on the sheet (4:1 shown on image).

 

 

Ok much better than the 49er arrangement that I was imagining. Glad to see you know better!

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Do you just drill and epoxy the Helicoil inserts in or do you need to somehow glass them into the foam? When you say chuncks of 6mm glass, does that mean multiple layers on top of each other where each screw will go? If yes, roughly how thick did you make them? I have a similar project, not nearly as cool, but a build of foam and glass and I was wondering what to put where the fasteners would go. Boat looks great!

 

Thanks Will - I'm emailing the photos stuck on my phone from my phone to my laptop, so I should have a these to help explain the method in a few minutes

 

Here are the photos - maybe these will help.

 

I'm getting some "looks" for holdong up the Christmas Day activities, so I'll post a more detailed explanation later

 

Aloha

 

Any concern about water damming @ main traveller?

 

Great looking project!

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Thank you sir! That is great and the photos are a big help. Luckily for me, my application is pretty much low load (I am building a mast support for a double deck trailer) and your method will be plenty tough. Thanks for the help!

 

Do you just drill and epoxy the Helicoil inserts in or do you need to somehow glass them into the foam? When you say chuncks of 6mm glass, does that mean multiple layers on top of each other where each screw will go? If yes, roughly how thick did you make them? I have a similar project, not nearly as cool, but a build of foam and glass and I was wondering what to put where the fasteners would go. Boat looks great!

 

Thanks Will - I'm emailing the photos stuck on my phone from my phone to my laptop, so I should have a these to help explain the method in a few minutes

 

Here are the photos - maybe these will help.

 

I'm getting some "looks" for holdong up the Christmas Day activities, so I'll post a more detailed explanation later

 

Aloha

 

That didn't take long - "interesting" with the parrot in the middle of things helping unwrap everything.

Got that 4 1/4" Porter Cable trim saw I've always wanted - perfect for getting into tight boat spaces and cutting foam sheets.

 

Okay, inserts for traveler tracks:

 

I made piece of quasi-laminate e-glass plate, approx 6mm (1/4") thick.

Quasi-laminate simply means the laminate has equal quantity of fibers on all axis; 0, 90, +45, -45.

My plate was made of 12 layers of 12oz material.

 

Each insert is approx 50mm x 25mm.

 

I hollowed out a recess at each fastener location in the foam base and/or deck.

These are little tricky to do, but after the first 18 recesses for the jib track, I got much quikcer and accurate.

This is why I posted photos of the main traveler

 

I used a barrel grinder (looks like a dremel tool on steroids @10,000 rpm) with a wood cutting cylinder shaped bit.

This grinder will destroy foam if not carefully guided and restrained - best to practice before going at the boat (I practiced on a scrap bit of foam).

 

Each insert was glued into the foam with some high density (404) filler.

 

The laminate was applied over the inserts, so the carbon captures each insert.

When it comes time to attach the tracks, I'll simply drill into the beam until I penetrate the insert (approx 10mm deep), then install a helicoil - no glue necessary.

I like to put a dab of epoxy on the fasteners when I put the tracks in like this - the fastener will never back out. You can get them out by heating the fastener with a soldering iron which will soften the epoxy enough to allow extraction.

If you're attaching a fitting that will need to be removed, use a bit of thread lock (lock-tight) on the fastener.

 

Okay - here comes the BIG WARNING!

This method for my track attachment places all the load on the laminate bond to the exterior skin of the deck.

There is potential for the beam either ripping the deck laminate off the core, or just peeling off the deck completely.

You need to be sure that the deck structure can take the loads and that the beam attachment stresses are low enough to allow this method.

This is not a reccommended method for novices or faint-hearted.

I've made thsi style of attachment many, many times on much higher loaded fittings, so feel confident this will work well for this little boat.

 

A through-bolt with a proper backing plate is a much more bullet-proof attachment.

Or you can elimniate the core at the fitting and replace the core with sloid glass plate.

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Any concern about water damming @ main traveller?

 

Great looking project!

 

 

There will be some carefully placed drain holes through the main traveler beam.

 

Thanks for the compliment - getting most of the boat a singe color finally reveals the shape of the boat.

 

As you fair the various parts of the boat, the typical result is a horrific combination of colors that effectively camouflages the shape.

 

Below are images before primer and after primer.

 

I'm very happy with the result – the “after” photo has a couple of things I particularly like:

 

The shadow under the boat shows how sharp the boat is forward

 

The Toyota truck in the background gives some scale; it’s a big a 20 footer.

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That looks great, probably a bit early to think about what about a simpler flat pack version with a few moulded key parts thrown in ? ?

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That looks great, probably a bit early to think about what about a simpler flat pack version with a few moulded key parts thrown in ? ?

 

As I’ve been building the boat, I’ve thought quite a lot about how to supply it as a “kit”.

 

In a much earlier post I said,

 

“I'll have quite a nice hull plug that I'd be able to build a few hull bottom parts from, so a "kit" could be supplied with this part and as many of the other pre-made panels as someone required. The original concept of this design was to be a kit boat similar to the i550, but these flat panel built boats have compromised hull forms that have no appeal to me, and I couldn't rationalize spending the time and money for this.”

 

Since then I’ve cut-up the hull plug – this was a necessary sacrifice during the interior hull laminate.

It would not be difficult to pull a mold off the exterior of my hull bottom for molded hull bottoms.

 

The topsides, deck and cockpit, and interior structures could be supplied as pre-cut flat panels.

 

The goal would be to get this high performance yacht built at a reasonable price.

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Not much progress to report beacuase I've taken a few days off from the building project this holiday week.

But by no means has the project remained static and work has begun to develop a kit for this design.

This design originally began with discussions for a 20 foot sportboat kit design, much more sophisticated than the i550.

I was so pleased with the design that developed from this, I wanted one for myself

Stay tuned for more on this.

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Hey Jim,

 

Long time fan, first time poster (heh, on this thread anyway).

 

Wow, can't believe you've been posting on this for so long and this is the first I'm seeing it!

 

We spoke the other day about painting, especially the deck. First, let me thank you for all of your help and advice while we have been refitting/rehabbing the Donovan 30 Galaxy Girl (ex. wolfpack). Here are pics of the painted deck.

 

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The deck turned out superbly with a very even, professional surface, the only problem was that one of my guys had been cleaning out one of our pickup truck interiors about 50 ft away with freaking ArmourAll the day before, which turned into an invisible silicone mist with the visible effect of fisheyes in our paint. Drag! We had to sand and repaint those non, non-skid areas. So, first, NO FREAKING ARMOUR AT ALL ANYWHERE! Second, we used one of the one-quart Binks pots and good gun. Very nice gun and no problems at all. We used Awlgrip Matterhorn White 2-part, with a 50-50 mix of coarse and fine awlgrip particles (whatever they are called). We used way, way more than they recommend, several times the amount. To get an even coat and to avoid the potential of contaminating the primed surface, we had the boat on the trailer, hooked it to a pickup truck (which we covered with plastic), suspended a plank on two scaffolds about 2-3 feet above the deck, and slowly towed the boat as the painter on the scaffold sprayed. If you can't bring Mohammed to the mountain.... We coordinated using walkies. Worked great, took 3 people, one to drive, one to paint, and one to tend the painter.

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Your project is a beauty. I've been lurking at the edges all the while and am stoked with the progress. Also, looks like Galaxy Girl is getting the love she deserves, saw her getting real at Waterat so many years ago.

Tim

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Not much progress to report beacuase I've taken a few days off from the building project this holiday week.

But by no means has the project remained static and work has begun to develop a kit for this design.

This design originally began with discussions for a 20 foot sportboat kit design, much more sophisticated than the i550.

I was so pleased with the design that developed from this, I wanted one for myself

Stay tuned for more on this.

 

very cool!!

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Hey Jim,

 

Long time fan, first time poster (heh, on this thread anyway).

 

Wow, can't believe you've been posting on this for so long and this is the first I'm seeing it!

 

We spoke the other day about painting, especially the deck. First, let me thank you for all of your help and advice while we have been refitting/rehabbing the Donovan 30 Galaxy Girl (ex. wolfpack). Here are pics of the painted deck.

 

 

Great to see the old boat looking good - that boat is a testament to the construction method I'm using on the 20 footer - glass outer skins and carbon inside over Divinycell core.

After 25 years and the boats still holding together, that says a lot for the durability and practicality of this method.

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anyone else finding the link from the front page leads to a broken file?

 

No. It worked fine for me yesterday. The boat looks great by the way. I'm being a lurker and following from afar and you might just have inspired me to do some boatbuilding once the snow goes. Keep the pics coming!

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Hey Jim,

 

Long time fan, first time poster (heh, on this thread anyway).

 

Wow, can't believe you've been posting on this for so long and this is the first I'm seeing it!

 

We spoke the other day about painting, especially the deck. First, let me thank you for all of your help and advice while we have been refitting/rehabbing the Donovan 30 Galaxy Girl (ex. wolfpack). Here are pics of the painted deck.

 

 

Great to see the old boat looking good - that boat is a testament to the construction method I'm using on the 20 footer - glass outer skins and carbon inside over Divinycell core.

After 25 years and the boats still holding together, that says a lot for the durability and practicality of this method.

 

The overall construction is in very good shape, no delam except in areas where something "bad" has happened (damn tailer pads) and that has all been on the glass side. The divinycell is still in perfect condition. One problem we discovered was that the plywood in the deck was not marine grade (very bad, came apart in messy delaminated plys), but easily enough replaced by, uh, whatever it is again we replaced it with..... Foam! Yeah, that's it! Foam! ;)

 

Not to worry, I'm going to compile a post in the "fixit" forum, showing the course of our rehab, so no more hijacking your wonderful thread here. That boat is looking very nice indeed, and your clean construction is so much cleaner than ours.....(!)

 

One question, how did you wet out the laminates (and again, where are the huge puddles of epoxy all over the floor)? Do you have any pics of that process? It sounds like the temp there is hot, how did you control hardening?

 

Thanks!

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While you are awaiting Jim's reply, I can say there sure aren't any pools of epoxy on that shop floor - Jim works VERY clean, pre-laminating most assemblies on a fabricated wet-out table. Using Slow hardener and staying out of the sun gives reasonable working time (yes, it's 'warm' here night-time lows are low 70's, daytime highs low 80's right now) - you just have to mind the pot temp/life and work in smaller batches.

 

Another note I have to mention, is that it's a real treat to see JD in action - thoughtful but still gettin' stuff done all the while, he's even productive with all the 'supervision' he gets ! His experience in the process REALLY expedites many decisions (clearly NOT his first boat, by a long shot) - as does the fact this boat is for HIM and not for a client that has to be involved mid-process. Example: "How big do we make the transom shelf ?" -- Measures his own foot from toe to heel --" I think just under 11 inches will do..."

 

DW

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I joke about "pools" of epoxy, but I don't even see droplets!

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I joke about "pools" of epoxy, but I don't even see droplets!

 

Gosh - I guess it's been a good idea to be tidy while everyone is watching!

 

Hours and hours and hours of practice is the best way to avoid making a mess laminating. Although wet laminating out of bucket is about my least favorite way to do the job, it is often the necessity. You often need to climb into a finished boat and perform secondary bonds, so it is a good practice to learn how to be neat or you’ll add a bunch more finishing hours cleaning up resin drips and repainting the interior.

It really comes down to simple stuff like holding the resin pot right under where you're applying the resin to catch the drips - less waste too. I also have the entire interior of my boat covered with masking paper – it will stay there until I’m done installing the deck hardware.

 

On the big deck and hull laminates, we had cardboard on the floor all around the boat. When you get a few guys involved in the wet-out and everyone is working really quick, drips just happen.

 

And dealing with the heat here in Hawaii is not as bad as you think. It’s usually around 80 degrees in the shop – a little cooler when the trades are blowing or I turn on all of Brett’s fans. At this temp the resin stays viscous and saturates the fibers easier.

 

You do have to be very careful to gauge the size of panel you’re making, and understand the resin system especially if you’re trying to get a vacuum bag on a large part. Take too long and let the resin get close to gel before you can pull vacuum and you’ve just wasted a lot of time with the bag. The resin I’m using is not as slow as I’d like, but the laminates are thin enough that they don’t get as much heat going as thicker laminates do. This just allowed us to tackle larger boat pieces with a couple guys.

 

I dry fit the jib track yesterday, and will get a photo of it. Primer painted the track beams and small sheer fairing spots, so the boat is starting to look even better. I’ll try and get a photo up soon.

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Jim, apologies if it's been asked and answered, but how do you see the crew's positioning for this boat? Hiking straps, lifelines, or something else?

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Don't know that he's made the final decision, but he mentioned he likes the simple J-22 style grab-rail for the forward hands.

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Jim, apologies if it's been asked and answered, but how do you see the crew's positioning for this boat? Hiking straps, lifelines, or something else?

 

My preference would be on a wire with my feet on the gunwale, but I suspect we'll start with a more traditional style.

 

My wife and I sailed J22s for many years in Annapolis, where there’s a very competitive fleet. The normal hiking style was the "old school" legs over the side and hang on to something - no lifelines. I suspect we will adopt this style quickly as it is comfortable and effective. I will carry the non-skid down around the sheer radius in the hiking area to help make it more "sticky" for the crew. I’ll also have a handrail near the hatch to give the crew something to hang onto. The cockpit is wide at the helm, and I’m planning on a footstrap to allow the driver to hang out over the edge.

 

In comparison, I show the Melges 24 bent-in-two-over-the-lifeline hiking style; it hurts and you are very happy when the day of racing is over.

 

The Melges 20 is obviously a revolt against the M24 arrangement. Are they hiking?

 

My boat will not have lifelines – they just get in the way on a boat this size. For any kind of offshore sailing I will have a webbing jackline running the full length of the deck, with safety harnesses mandatory. Some races may require lifelines which is easily remedied with a few sockets in the deck for the stanchions – you can just pull them out if you don’t need them

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The past couple weeks have shown less progress on the 6m than I would like - holidays and other non-boat building matters taking precedence.

 

I have just about completed the seemingly endless process of chasing the small hollows and gouges that appear in the fairing after you get a couple coats of primer on, I’m rolling the primer which goes on thinner than a sprayed coat, so two coats is not a significant amount of paint.

 

Finally got the inside laminate on the rudder box, and hope to have this glassed/carboned onto the transom today.

 

We have been developing this kit concept for this boat, and I’d like to get some opinions regarding the transom/stern configuration.

 

My boat is built the way I want it. We will sail this boat to the sandbar in Kaneohe Bay and hang off a hook (more likely hang of another big boat) and swim in to stand around at low tide.

 

My wife asked of we could have a swim step and stern shower on the boat, I said “no problem”. As Dan pointed out earlier, the swim step (tail-feathers) is just big enough for my foot (sorry Brett) There’s a whale foot pump in the rudder box and the little foot lever will stick out the port side. I’ll have a Shurflow shower-head in the transom. When we go “cruising”, I’ll throw a water bladder filled with warm fresh water in the boat.

 

So as I build all the extra stuff associated with this arrangement, I’m thinking, “I hope the showers are worth the extra bother of building it this way”.

 

So here’s a question:

 

Should the kit have the same arrangement as my boat, or not.?

 

Or

 

Does it really matter – build the transom arrangement as you please?

 

My vote is “build it as you please”. The arrangement has no affect on performance, and I think people should have their boats tailored to their needs.

post-3763-1263059020_thumb.jpg

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The past couple weeks have shown less progress on the 6m than I would like - holidays and other non-boat building matters taking precedence.

 

I have just about completed the seemingly endless process of chasing the small hollows and gouges that appear in the fairing after you get a couple coats of primer on, I'm rolling the primer which goes on thinner than a sprayed coat, so two coats is not a significant amount of paint.

 

Finally got the inside laminate on the rudder box, and hope to have this glassed/carboned onto the transom today.

 

We have been developing this kit concept for this boat, and I'd like to get some opinions regarding the transom/stern configuration.

 

My boat is built the way I want it. We will sail this boat to the sandbar in Kaneohe Bay and hang off a hook (more likely hang of another big boat) and swim in to stand around at low tide.

 

My wife asked of we could have a swim step and stern shower on the boat, I said "no problem". As Dan pointed out earlier, the swim step (tail-feathers) is just big enough for my foot (sorry Brett) There's a whale foot pump in the rudder box and the little foot lever will stick out the port side. I'll have a Shurflow shower-head in the transom. When we go "cruising", I'll throw a water bladder filled with warm fresh water in the boat.

 

So as I build all the extra stuff associated with this arrangement, I'm thinking, "I hope the showers are worth the extra bother of building it this way".

 

So here's a question:

 

Should the kit have the same arrangement as my boat, or not.?

 

Or

 

Does it really matter – build the transom arrangement as you please?

 

My vote is "build it as you please". The arrangement has no affect on performance, and I think people should have their boats tailored to their needs.

 

 

If you really want to have shower capabilities - buy a Sunshower (which incidently also heats the water by laying in the sun for an hour or two)and bring it filled with freshwater when needed. Why make it complicated and put more shit on the boat than necessary?

 

Other than that it looks good - I actually really like the way the rudder box is integrated with the scoop - hope it is stiff enough to take the torque from the rudder om a screaming kite reach

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If you really want to have shower capabilities - buy a Sunshower (which incidently also heats the water by laying in the sun for an hour or two)and bring it filled with freshwater when needed. Why make it complicated and put more shit on the boat than necessary?

 

Other than that it looks good - I actually really like the way the rudder box is integrated with the scoop - hope it is stiff enough to take the torque from the rudder om a screaming kite reach

 

Having owned several sunshowers for many, many years (I have one in the basement now), I'm opting for a more "yacht-like" approach. I realize it's not what everyone would want and I would never suggest anyone build the same arranmgement. To each his own.

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hope it is stiff enough to take the torque from the rudder om a screaming kite reach

 

That's what the carbion is for. Thsi is simple a boxed in version of a dingy style rudder hanger. The box sides are bias material, with a bunch of unis aligend with the gudgeon loads - these are effectively aimed at very strong parts of the boat, so I'm not concerned about the strength.

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The past couple weeks have shown less progress on the 6m than I would like - holidays and other non-boat building matters taking precedence.

 

I have just about completed the seemingly endless process of chasing the small hollows and gouges that appear in the fairing after you get a couple coats of primer on, I’m rolling the primer which goes on thinner than a sprayed coat, so two coats is not a significant amount of paint.

 

Finally got the inside laminate on the rudder box, and hope to have this glassed/carboned onto the transom today.

 

We have been developing this kit concept for this boat, and I’d like to get some opinions regarding the transom/stern configuration.

 

My boat is built the way I want it. We will sail this boat to the sandbar in Kaneohe Bay and hang off a hook (more likely hang of another big boat) and swim in to stand around at low tide.

 

My wife asked of we could have a swim step and stern shower on the boat, I said “no problem”. As Dan pointed out earlier, the swim step (tail-feathers) is just big enough for my foot (sorry Brett) There’s a whale foot pump in the rudder box and the little foot lever will stick out the port side. I’ll have a Shurflow shower-head in the transom. When we go “cruising”, I’ll throw a water bladder filled with warm fresh water in the boat.

 

So as I build all the extra stuff associated with this arrangement, I’m thinking, “I hope the showers are worth the extra bother of building it this way”.

 

So here’s a question:

 

Should the kit have the same arrangement as my boat, or not.?

 

Or

 

Does it really matter – build the transom arrangement as you please?

 

My vote is “build it as you please”. The arrangement has no affect on performance, and I think people should have their boats tailored to their needs.

 

 

 

I get to tell him this every day but I say bring the transom all the way back for a normal finished stern for the kit.

1) It's an easier build

2) The Spin turning blocks can be thru decks rather than a custom sheave box

3) and you can leave class rules to each his own so that anyone else that is fortunate enough to live in a place where you want to swim, can

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looks great.,,actually shower in would suit my needs, have a shower after a swim, maybe one with an adjustable nozzle that can use for drinking water....minor point though. Are you going to have an outboard ?

 

Im probably jumping the gun jim, but how will the kit work? Will all of the panels be made to size and shape with high tech materials or are you thinking sheet ply.How will you do the frames?

 

Do you have a price in mind for finished boat ?

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looks great.,,actually shower in would suit my needs, have a shower after a swim, maybe one with an adjustable nozzle that can use for drinking water....minor point though. Are you going to have an outboard ?

 

Im probably jumping the gun jim, but how will the kit work? Will all of the panels be made to size and shape with high tech materials or are you thinking sheet ply.How will you do the frames?

 

Do you have a price in mind for finished boat ?

 

I don't plan to have an outboard - never used one in over 2 years of sailing Melges 24s, so cn't see the logic in having one; they always stink up the boat.

Of course that requires that we must be nice to people so we'll be able to get a tow when needed.

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Great looking boat, I was wondering how much the layup schedule would change building the inner skin out of glass? Overall costs vs. weight?

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Great looking boat, I was wondering how much the layup schedule would change building the inner skin out of glass? Overall costs vs. weight?

 

I've looked at this a few times, and the weight hit is in the 25kg (62lbs) range, along with decreased hull stiffness with an e-glass inner skin.

I've sailed on a lot of carbon boats, and you definitely notice the difference in stiffness.

The cost increase is about $1500, which is not a huge number, and increases the value of the boat proportionally.

 

For me the decision was easy.

 

Here's a pic of the jib traveler track with the faring complete and some more primer on it. Quite happy with how this turned out

post-3763-1263373838_thumb.jpg

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The past couple weeks have shown less progress on the 6m than I would like - holidays and other non-boat building matters taking precedence.

 

I have just about completed the seemingly endless process of chasing the small hollows and gouges that appear in the fairing after you get a couple coats of primer on, I’m rolling the primer which goes on thinner than a sprayed coat, so two coats is not a significant amount of paint.

 

Finally got the inside laminate on the rudder box, and hope to have this glassed/carboned onto the transom today.

 

We have been developing this kit concept for this boat, and I’d like to get some opinions regarding the transom/stern configuration.

 

My boat is built the way I want it. We will sail this boat to the sandbar in Kaneohe Bay and hang off a hook (more likely hang of another big boat) and swim in to stand around at low tide.

 

My wife asked of we could have a swim step and stern shower on the boat, I said “no problem”. As Dan pointed out earlier, the swim step (tail-feathers) is just big enough for my foot (sorry Brett) There’s a whale foot pump in the rudder box and the little foot lever will stick out the port side. I’ll have a Shurflow shower-head in the transom. When we go “cruising”, I’ll throw a water bladder filled with warm fresh water in the boat.

 

So as I build all the extra stuff associated with this arrangement, I’m thinking, “I hope the showers are worth the extra bother of building it this way”.

 

So here’s a question:

 

Should the kit have the same arrangement as my boat, or not.?

 

Or

 

Does it really matter – build the transom arrangement as you please?

 

My vote is “build it as you please”. The arrangement has no affect on performance, and I think people should have their boats tailored to their needs.

 

 

 

I get to tell him this every day but I say bring the transom all the way back for a normal finished stern for the kit.

1) It's an easier build

2) The Spin turning blocks can be thru decks rather than a custom sheave box

3) and you can leave class rules to each his own so that anyone else that is fortunate enough to live in a place where you want to swim, can

I agree with you Thumper, you can always add one of those portable swim ladders. I do like Jim's shower arrangement though, but with the normal transon I would probably hide the whole lot under a floor hatch near the transom.

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I get to tell him this every day but I say bring the transom all the way back for a normal finished stern for the kit.

1) It's an easier build

2) The Spin turning blocks can be thru decks rather than a custom sheave box

3) and you can leave class rules to each his own so that anyone else that is fortunate enough to live in a place where you want to swim, can

I agree with you Thumper, you can always add one of those portable swim ladders. I do like Jim's shower arrangement though, but with the normal transon I would probably hide the whole lot under a floor hatch near the transom.

 

Here's a pic of the rudder box laminated to the transom - this is last bit of structure except for a couple small bonds still needed inside back aft. You can also see srain holes added under the ttaveler beam.

 

Re: swim ladders - I guess I'm not a fan of bringing a lot of gear along when I go sailing; I prefer the tailfeathers as it makes it so easy to get back aboard - easier than a ladder in my opinion, and I've seen more than one ladder fail the float test. If anyone ever does go overboard, they will get pull themselves back aboard well before anyone wrestles a ladder out from down below.

 

"Easier to build'? Not convinced it is easier for a one-off.

 

The spinnaker sheet sheace boxes aren't a requirment with this style of transom - they were just a detail I wanted on my boat and could have been substitued with a normal cheek block fastened to the inside of the hull. As this corner of the boat gets submerged at 90 degrees, it is important to seal the penetration. I have a tube from the transom forward and through the deck that makes this arrangement watertight. The Harken thru-deck blocks are difficult to make watertight.

 

The transom doesn't look great now only because it is partially faired w/blotches of about 6 different colors. The appearance will radically change after the fairing is finished and it I get some primer on it.

post-3763-1263442714_thumb.jpg

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The trav drains look good - how'd you get in there to cut those flush with the deck ?

 

I thought the rudder box re-inforcement strips would extend further out to distribute the lift loads and attach to a larger area - those overlaps onto the transom & hull appear small to me.

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The trav drains look good - how'd you get in there to cut those flush with the deck ?

 

I thought the rudder box re-inforcement strips would extend further out to distribute the lift loads and attach to a larger area - those overlaps onto the transom & hull appear small to me.

 

Drain holes were cut into the laminate with a cone shaped stone in a barrel grinder (the dremel on steroids that is just about my favorite tool). To clean up the holes and punch all the way through the foam I borrowed Brett's dremel with a flexble shaft and little barrel sander. Regular dremels don;t have enough torque to easily cut through laminate, but they can deal with foam core okay. Today I get the dowell with sandpaper stuck to it to finish reaming the holes.

 

The big load on the rudder box is a compression load along the upper edge when the rudder is hard over at high speed. Then all you need to do is direct that load at a strong piece of boat. The carbon along the upper edges is lapped a few inches onto the cokpit sole/transom edge bond, which is extremely strong and stiff. From there the huge coskpit sole panel will easily absorb the load. The laminate on the box sides is more detailed than the photo will show, with stacks of unis to stiffen the box inside and out. The thing is quite solid.

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The thing is quite solid.

 

Of that I'm quite sure.

 

I was just envisioning those tows of carbon Uni extending along that transom edge further.

Having sheared some rudders off myself you don't need to tell ME how loaded rudders get !

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a cylindrical attachment for a dremel w/ sandpaper on it is how it reads

 

reading issues mate?

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I wonder how many Donavan D6s it would take to equal the weight of a Catapiller D6? Sorry, had to look it up = 32.27

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I wonder how many D6s it would take to equal the weight of a Catapiller D6? Sorry, had to look it up = 32.27

 

For a D6T I get 37.35

 

Jim, in those little yellow pictures, is the black area in the cockpit the open hatch? As in the hatch swings upwards on its hinges?

 

Also, are you having a keel-stepped mast or putting a post under the mast step if deck-stepped? If so, isn't anyone going down the hatch going to immediately bump into the post (or mast), with not much room to manoever round it?

Have you considered sitting a deck-stepped mast on top of an I-beam, located under the deck, to open it all up down below?

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ran into JB on the ferry to FH last Tuesday night, we talked all about your build, he is such a character, must be cool if JB thinks it's cool

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I wonder how many D6s it would take to equal the weight of a Catapiller D6? Sorry, had to look it up = 32.27

 

For a D6T I get 37.35

 

Jim, in those little yellow pictures, is the black area in the cockpit the open hatch? As in the hatch swings upwards on its hinges?

 

Also, are you having a keel-stepped mast or putting a post under the mast step if deck-stepped? If so, isn't anyone going down the hatch going to immediately bump into the post (or mast), with not much room to manoever round it?

Have you considered sitting a deck-stepped mast on top of an I-beam, located under the deck, to open it all up down below?

 

That's a good question.

 

The hatch for my boat is a Lewmar 64 low profile D-shaped hatch - (looks a little bit like an old race car windshield when it's up). I'm going to install this in a panel tha may be easily removed to make a much larger hatch opening and I'll have a fabric cover for buoy racing. Also need the larger opening to pull the keel up through.

 

I'm keel stepping my rig because it's my preference.

There's enough room between the hatch opening and mast that you don't run into it (tested with a 2x4 propped up inside).

Needless to say there's very little "running around" in the interior.

I'm really happy with the inside space - it's exactly what I was looking for.

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The hatch for my boat is a Lewmar 64 low profile D-shaped hatch - (looks a little bit like an old race car windshield when it's up). I'm going to install this in a panel tha may be easily removed to make a much larger hatch opening and I'll have a fabric cover for buoy racing. Also need the larger opening to pull the keel up through.

 

The hatch-within-a-hatch probably deserves some more thought.

 

And that Section cut suggests the need for a leaf-sprung tractor seat!

 

Very neat little boat, Mr. Donovan!

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The hatch for my boat is a Lewmar 64 low profile D-shaped hatch - (looks a little bit like an old race car windshield when it's up). I'm going to install this in a panel tha may be easily removed to make a much larger hatch opening and I'll have a fabric cover for buoy racing. Also need the larger opening to pull the keel up through.

 

The hatch-within-a-hatch probably deserves some more thought.

 

And that Section cut suggests the need for a leaf-sprung tractor seat!

 

Very neat little boat, Mr. Donovan!

 

Thanks for the compliment Lurker.

 

So with a Melges 24 hatch you stuff the various parts in their padded bags and they end up somewhere in the "interior".

I know guys who have done serious offshore in their M24's and they seal up the boat with little chance of ever getting below - the hatch is that diffciult to use.

Getting the hatch fit with the more funky compainoinway slider has to be done in advance of the breeze coming on when the bow starts stuffing under every wave.

If you want to experience this - come to Hawaii.

 

My goal was to have a buoys option that has the biggest available opening, with a fabric cover to shed most of the water.

For offshore sailing, there's a real hatch that easily locks down watertight and allows instant access to the interior.

In my case I'm using a very nice Lewmar 64.

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I've been finishing off the rudder box (including composite gudgeons), adding some glass plate reinforcements on deck, and buffing out the holes under the mainsheet traveler beam (next time I will do this a little different).

 

I have photos of the process and will post them after I get a coat of primer on the transom area today (if all goes well).

 

After this the boat will be ready to flip for final faring of the hull bottom.

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I've been finishing off the rudder box (including composite gudgeons), adding some glass plate reinforcements on deck, and buffing out the holes under the mainsheet traveler beam (next time I will do this a little different).

 

I have photos of the process and will post them after I get a coat of primer on the transom area today (if all goes well).

 

After this the boat will be ready to flip for final faring of the hull bottom.

 

Rudder box finished, except for inspection port installation on top.

 

Photo 1 shows rudder "gudgeons" - G10 tube with bronze bushings - sleeve bushings will be attached to rudder - shoulder bushing each side of sleeves, custom st stl pin thoiugh all. Set up all parts on rudder box, and then located it w/404 filler

 

Photo 2 shows wedge build-up of 404 around G10 tube - the initial dabs of 404 locked the tubes in place, so I was able to remove pin and bushings to keep them clean

 

Photo 3 shows carbon strapping around G-10 tube onto rudder box, exactly the same method as for as a composite chainplate.

 

Photo 4 shows the first pass of primer - I'll sand this smooth today before the paint gets too hard - and start setting up the hull to flip.

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post-3763-1264172705_thumb.jpg

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The time has arrived; I’m “done” with the deck for a while, and it’s time to roll the boat over so I can finish fairing the hull bottom.

 

In celebration of this event, I am extending an invitation to all my yachting friends for an impromptu “bottom’s UP” party / work detail.

The boat is the size of a one-ton pickup truck, but weighs les than a refrigerator, so there’s not a lot of heavy lifting and the emphasis will be hanging out with friends.

 

5-ish at the boat shed “Als Garage”.

 

Email me if you need directions to the event: jpd@jpdonovandesign.com

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The time has arrived; I’m “done” with the deck for a while, and it’s time to roll the boat over so I can finish fairing the hull bottom.

 

In celebration of this event, I am extending an invitation to all my yachting friends for an impromptu “bottom’s UP” party / work detail.

The boat is the size of a one-ton pickup truck, but weighs les than a refrigerator, so there’s not a lot of heavy lifting and the emphasis will be hanging out with friends.

 

5-ish at the boat shed “Als Garage”.

 

Email me if you need directions to the event: jpd@jpdonovandesign.com

 

 

Forgot to mention - bottoms up party is Monday 25th

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Jim as always thanks for taking the time to keep us informed on the build. Very rarely do outsiders get to look at how a custom performance yacht is built.

One of the most interesting threads on Sailing Anarchy.

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The "rollover party" went well - pics to follow as time allows, I'm sure, but she's upside-down again and should be fair in a couple weeks. Moving & Flipping only took 2 of those mini-kegs....

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Jim as always thanks for taking the time to keep us informed on the build. Very rarely do outsiders get to look at how a custom performance yacht is built.

One of the most interesting threads on Sailing Anarchy.

+1

 

I get pissed when there are no new photos on this thread.

Definitely my favorite read on SA.

 

Jim....keep the posts frequent and full of photos.

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The "rollover party" went well - pics to follow as time allows, I'm sure, but she's upside-down again and should be fair in a couple weeks. Moving & Flipping only took 2 of those mini-kegs....

 

How much of the construction cost is BEER

?!?

 

FB- Doug

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Jim as always thanks for taking the time to keep us informed on the build. Very rarely do outsiders get to look at how a custom performance yacht is built.

One of the most interesting threads on Sailing Anarchy.

+1

 

I get pissed when there are no new photos on this thread.

Definitely my favorite read on SA.

 

Jim....keep the posts frequent and full of photos.

 

 

Sorry about the lack of photos - when it gets to the fairing and painting stage, there's just a lot of micro-balloon applications followed by sanding.

It is tedious and very dusty. Not sure you would enjoy these photos much, so I don't bother.

 

I'll get the video of the roll-over - we did it twice because we had a camera malfunction - it was pretty simple, picked it up off the cradle and set it on Brett and Eileen's lawn, then pushed it over. It was great to have so many helpers, although they were definitely thirsty!

 

I spent today chasing a few minor hollows, using a string pulled tight along the hull bottom to check for fairness.

 

Here's a pic prior to the roll-over

post-3763-1264575996_thumb.jpg

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