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When "USA" Goes Out To The Dance ....

Will "USA" Have A Whomper  

105 members have voted

  1. 1. Will "USA" Have A Whomper?

    • No
      37
    • Yes
      68


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October 27 will be a monstrous day in AC history.

 

Because very important issues are bundled together and will be getting judicial attention in NYC.

 

As well, BOR-90 will have emerged from cosmetic surgery and we should have answers to many questions.

 

Will she have a whomper (hard-wing)?

 

Yea, yea, yea, the hard wing might be smaller than expected and work in conjunction with soft sails.

 

And yes, we have already discussed the question.

 

But, since then, BOR showed us the hard-wing model floating at their base.

 

In addition, certain Anarchists have a look around the DOG-House.

 

So, now is the time to vote early and vote often.

 

post-23687-1255109951_thumb.jpg

 

 

 

When "USA" goes out to dance, will she have a whomper? (hard wing).

 

Cast you vote and explain your reasoning.

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Take a look at the parking lot at Core. Anything change there in say the last 48 hours or so?

 

Any trucks leave? I saw the last new centre hull on the way south, another poster saw the new amas going south, another saw the the old amas heading north ...

 

What are the chances of anything as big or bigger than a 747 wing making it from Core to the DoG pound without being sighted by someone on the forum?

 

Just to be clear, it would not be consistent with BMWO's team character to NOT try a hard wing. I think we will see one on the boat. Perhaps not for the match, but certainly for evaluation.

 

Yes, we will see the WOMPER

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Take a look at the parking lot at Core. Anything change there in say the last 48 hours or so?

 

Any trucks leave? I saw the last new centre hull on the way south, another poster saw the new amas going south, another saw the the old amas heading north ...

 

What are the chances of anything as big or bigger than a 747 wing making it from Core to the DoG pound without being sighted by someone on the forum?

 

That model is out on the water again today

 

post-17804-1255111788_thumb.jpg

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The wing is coming but that might not be the most surprising of the mods

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The wing is coming but that might not be the most surprising of the mods

 

I've always loved the cryptic comments like this one. Is one of the surprising mods batteries of 16" guns both fore and aft of the mast for safety off RAK?

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The wing is coming but that might not be the most surprising of the mods

Will it inhale petrol, diesel or nitromethane....mmmmmm?

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Take a look at the parking lot at Core. Anything change there in say the last 48 hours or so?

 

Any trucks leave? I saw the last new centre hull on the way south, another poster saw the new amas going south, another saw the the old amas heading north ...

 

What are the chances of anything as big or bigger than a 747 wing making it from Core to the DoG pound without being sighted by someone on the forum?

 

That model is out on the water again today

 

post-17804-1255111788_thumb.jpg

 

I have been wondering why this model is floating out there where it is, presumably either anchored or tethered. It was there starting very early this morning, it may have been there all night.

 

They could a lot more easily play with the mechanism on the hard but went to the trouble of building a floating frame instead. They aren't even raising and lowering the rig, it stays almost flat just off the water any time I look at it.

 

Maybe it's a weather vane? So they can plan better for where best to dock DZ if/when the mythical monster wing is unveiled?

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Take a look at the parking lot at Core. Anything change there in say the last 48 hours or so?

 

Any trucks leave? I saw the last new centre hull on the way south, another poster saw the new amas going south, another saw the the old amas heading north ...

 

What are the chances of anything as big or bigger than a 747 wing making it from Core to the DoG pound without being sighted by someone on the forum?

 

That model is out on the water again today

 

post-17804-1255111788_thumb.jpg

 

I have been wondering why this model is floating out there where it is, presumably either anchored or tethered. It was there starting very early this morning, it may have been there all night.

 

They could a lot more easily play with the mechanism on the hard but went to the trouble of building a floating frame instead. They aren't even raising and lowering the rig, it stays almost flat just off the water any time I look at it.

 

Maybe it's a weather vane? So they can plan better for where best to dock DZ if/when the mythical monster wing is unveiled?

 

 

Or else it is a joke to wind-up the Anarchists?

 

The wing is coming but that might not be the most surprising of the mods

 

 

 

Ooooh ! Do say more!

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Hey guys!!! wings are made to fly...

 

Second backflip of sailrocket! They are on the good way to satelise the all thing... a real rocket! :blink:

 

but hitting the 52.3 knts!!!

 

 

post-38390-1255119494_thumb.jpg

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The wing is coming but that might not be the most surprising of the mods

Will it inhale petrol, diesel or nitromethane....mmmmmm?

 

nobody will be surprised when she comes out with a motor....

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The wing is coming but that might not be the most surprising of the mods

Will it inhale petrol, diesel or nitromethane....mmmmmm?

 

nobody will be surprised when she comes out with a motor....

Which, at least according to the photo caption, in the recently posted SH article by Tim Jeffery, written shortly after he joined BOR, is.. tada.. a BMW engine!

 

Big surprise there :)

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Yes, it will have a 'Whomper', with Jennifer Grey on hand for the christening........................

 

 

 

post-14813-1255125091_thumb.jpg

 

 

 

 

post-14813-1255125124_thumb.jpg

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Windrider RAVE style Full Foil setup.... three point inverted T-foils...

 

13

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Windrider RAVE style Full Foil setup.... three point inverted T-foils...

 

13

 

Sounds like fun.

 

But does it come with a whomper?

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Windrider RAVE style Full Foil setup.... three point inverted T-foils...

 

13

 

Sounds like fun.

 

But does it come with a whomper?

 

 

A Whomper and a Screecher!

 

13

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Don't depend on elections in Afghanistan.

 

Just look at those on Sailing Anarchy.

 

With less than 1 million votes cast, just over half the punters say "USA" is getting a whomper.

 

What sayeth you?

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The wing is coming but that might not be the most surprising of the mods

 

I'm expecting the crossbeams to have some interesting changes

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One of the funny things is: Folks watch the "known" places..... we saw the A cat testing/playing.... what if they just went and tested some shit at some out of the way hinterland bay..... and came back with a rig like we described... no one would think they had any real testing on it.... etc...

 

13

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The wing is coming but that might not be the most surprising of the mods

 

I'm expecting the crossbeams to have some interesting changes

 

 

In what way? Aerodynamically interesting? Mechanically?

 

Or what?

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One of the funny things is: Folks watch the "known" places..... we saw the A cat testing/playing.... what if they just went and tested some shit at some out of the way hinterland bay..... and came back with a rig like we described... no one would think they had any real testing on it.... etc...

 

13

For example....

 

There are plenty of dry lake beds out near the Scaled Composites HQ in Mojave where you can set up a giant wing and test away to your heart's content all day. These are provided with the world's most dependable natural wind tunnels.

 

Not many sailors out there. Unless they're part of the Army/Air Force UAV programs also using the area.

 

And nobody forget that Burt and his boys built the mast for Dennis back in the day. And they have a MUCH bigger facility now, and a whole bunch more people. A whole load closer to San Diego than Anacortes is too.

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The wing is coming but that might not be the most surprising of the mods

 

I'm expecting the crossbeams to have some interesting changes

 

 

In what way? Aerodynamically interesting? Mechanically?

 

Or what?

Just have to see, won't we?

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One of the funny things is: Folks watch the "known" places..... we saw the A cat testing/playing.... what if they just went and tested some shit at some out of the way hinterland bay..... and came back with a rig like we described... no one would think they had any real testing on it.... etc...

 

13

For example....

 

There are plenty of dry lake beds out near the Scaled Composites HQ in Mojave where you can set up a giant wing and test away to your heart's content all day. These are provided with the world's most dependable natural wind tunnels.

 

Not many sailors out there. Unless they're part of the Army/Air Force UAV programs also using the area.

 

And nobody forget that Burt and his boys built the mast for Dennis back in the day. And they have a MUCH bigger facility now, and a whole bunch more people. A whole load closer to San Diego than Anacortes is too.

 

 

Scaled Composites is not building, testing or storing any BMO parts.

Brother inlaw works there in a high level cpacity. :ph34r:

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One of the funny things is: Folks watch the "known" places..... we saw the A cat testing/playing.... what if they just went and tested some shit at some out of the way hinterland bay..... and came back with a rig like we described... no one would think they had any real testing on it.... etc...

 

13

For example....

 

There are plenty of dry lake beds out near the Scaled Composites HQ in Mojave where you can set up a giant wing and test away to your heart's content all day. These are provided with the world's most dependable natural wind tunnels.

 

Not many sailors out there. Unless they're part of the Army/Air Force UAV programs also using the area.

 

And nobody forget that Burt and his boys built the mast for Dennis back in the day. And they have a MUCH bigger facility now, and a whole bunch more people. A whole load closer to San Diego than Anacortes is too.

 

 

Scaled Composites is not building, testing or storing any BMO parts.

Brother inlaw works there in a high level cpacity. :ph34r:

 

They doing any work for ... um ... Boeing? :)

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There are plenty of dry lake beds out near the Scaled Composites HQ in Mojave where you can set up a giant wing and test away to your heart's content all day. These are provided with the world's most dependable natural wind tunnels.

 

Just imagine Russian spy satellites picking up a giant, vertical wing - enough for an emergency meeting of the Voenno-Vozdushnye Sily :lol:

The idea of the "natural wind tunnel" is tempting, problem is you miss out the spanwise AoA variation due to wind gradient/boat speed combination.

But seriously, Aviation Week would have picked that up - and, confirming MM's post, #2 son hasn't heard anything from his friends at Scaled.

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dz will have a horizontal wing, designed to flap like a bird, using "allowed powered hydraulics" not for propulsion, but for elevation. Bor operative says "there's more wind aloft, and no hydrodynamic drag, a perfect solution".

Haven't you seen the model in the san diego basin, on another forum post?

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dz will have a horizontal wing, designed to flap like a bird, using "allowed powered hydraulics" not for propulsion, but for elevation. Bor operative says "there's more wind aloft, and no hydrodynamic drag, a perfect solution".

Haven't you seen the model in the san diego basin, on another forum post?

 

 

Ornithopter

 

13

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One of the funny things is: Folks watch the "known" places..... we saw the A cat testing/playing.... what if they just went and tested some shit at some out of the way hinterland bay..... and came back with a rig like we described... no one would think they had any real testing on it.... etc...

 

13

For example....

 

There are plenty of dry lake beds out near the Scaled Composites HQ in Mojave where you can set up a giant wing and test away to your heart's content all day. These are provided with the world's most dependable natural wind tunnels.

 

Not many sailors out there. Unless they're part of the Army/Air Force UAV programs also using the area.

 

And nobody forget that Burt and his boys built the mast for Dennis back in the day. And they have a MUCH bigger facility now, and a whole bunch more people. A whole load closer to San Diego than Anacortes is too.

 

 

Scaled Composites is not building, testing or storing any BMO parts.

Brother inlaw works there in a high level cpacity. :ph34r:

Oh, well, I love it when my theories bite the (desert) dust. Seemed plausible at the time.

 

BTW, I spent a bit of time out on the lake beds when I was with KiteShip, testing some stuff for the Army. The wind tunnel effect is quite amazing, and as long as you aren't after a contained environment, you can get some pretty good numbers from some quite cheap rigs.

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most surprising of the mods

 

So they sailed with no middle dagger,

And they sailed with no middle rudder,

And they sailed with the middle hull out of the water 90% of the time,

So how much do they need in the middle?

Not nothing, but something...

I wonder....

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Oh, well, I love it when my theories bite the (desert) dust. Seemed plausible at the time.

 

BTW, I spent a bit of time out on the lake beds when I was with KiteShip, testing some stuff for the Army. The wind tunnel effect is quite amazing, and as long as you aren't after a contained environment, you can get some pretty good numbers from some quite cheap rigs.

 

Only slightly off topic ... do you remember a post something to the effect that Steve Clark says there is no advantage to a wing if sail area is unlimited?

 

I can't find it for the life of me, the post was not from SC, but from someone taking SR to task for the wing rumors.

 

I've not given much thought to a wing in an unlimited area sailboat context. I suppose it could be approached from looking for optimum area for a span limitation?

 

I don't think there is any doubt that for the same heeling force (or wing root bending moment) that a wing would give better performance (higher L/D) upwind.

 

That optimum upwind wing would have too little area to be optimized for down wind where the same nearly the same AoA and Drive force are needed and the apparent wind is substantially lower. Rather than add the complexity of a very high lift adjustment to the wing, can adding area with a soft sail provide similar performance?

 

If it would be possible to do that, USA's wing does not have to be nearly as complicated as a C-Cat wing. This would reduce the trialling time needed and make the wing idea more viable.

 

Does that make any sense?

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Oh, well, I love it when my theories bite the (desert) dust. Seemed plausible at the time.

 

BTW, I spent a bit of time out on the lake beds when I was with KiteShip, testing some stuff for the Army. The wind tunnel effect is quite amazing, and as long as you aren't after a contained environment, you can get some pretty good numbers from some quite cheap rigs.

 

Only slightly off topic ... do you remember a post something to the effect that Steve Clark says there is no advantage to a wing if sail area is unlimited?

 

I can't find it for the life of me, the post was not from SC, but from someone taking SR to task for the wing rumors.

 

I've not given much thought to a wing in an unlimited area sailboat context. I suppose it could be approached from looking for optimum area for a span limitation?

 

I don't think there is any doubt that for the same heeling force (or wing root bending moment) that a wing would give better performance (higher L/D) upwind.

 

That optimum upwind wing would have too little area to be optimized for down wind where the same nearly the same AoA and Drive force are needed and the apparent wind is substantially lower. Rather than add the complexity of a very high lift adjustment to the wing, can adding area with a soft sail provide similar performance?

 

If it would be possible to do that, USA's wing does not have to be nearly as complicated as a C-Cat wing. This would reduce the trialling time needed and make the wing idea more viable.

 

Does that make any sense?

Sail area is king. The advantage of a wing is reduced if there is no sail area limit. C-cats, and a-cats are "undercanvased" so the solid wing helps to improve the area available. The wings other advantage is the leech loading, and mast compression is reduced, so the platform is not as stressed. A combination of solid wing, and soft sail, like the '88 defender, could be the most versatile, advantageous, arrangement.

 

Or, they might be using something like this: http://gyroscope.com/d.asp?product=SOLARMOTOR

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The wing is coming but that might not be the most surprising of the mods

Are you saying that BOR have realised how badly wrong USA/BOR90 actually is :P:lol:

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The wing is coming but that might not be the most surprising of the mods

Are you saying that BOR have realised how badly wrong USA/BOR90 actually is :P:lol:

More like BMWO is looking forward to being able to use all the trick stuff they had in the pipe that needed to wait until after they had tricked SNG to changing the rules to allow them. :D

 

SNG will soon have a better idea of what the true effect of opening pandora's box was. :lol:

 

When your opponent can outspend you 3-4 to 1 in an arms race, to you give him more room to play or less?

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The wing is coming but that might not be the most surprising of the mods

Are you saying that BOR have realised how badly wrong USA/BOR90 actually is :P:lol:

 

Perhaps.......

 

But it will still be fast enough (in any of it's configurations) to take down a Cat that folds up in 8 kts. :P:P

 

WL

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most surprising of the mods

 

So they sailed with no middle dagger,

And they sailed with no middle rudder,

And they sailed with the middle hull out of the water 90% of the time,

So how much do they need in the middle?

Not nothing, but something...

I wonder....

 

They need 90 feet, and just enough volume to keep the waterlines outboard a bit less than, maybe enough so it keeps a tacking advantage over a cat. With the rudder measurement issue, one workaround to the SNG measurement rule would be to place the aft end of the center hull (vaka) at or a nudge behind the ama rudder trailing edges.

 

It will be very interesting to see what the design team exposes to the light of day.

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The wing is coming but that might not be the most surprising of the mods

Are you saying that BOR have realised how badly wrong USA/BOR90 actually is :P:lol:

More like BMWO is looking forward to being able to use all the trick stuff they had in the pipe that needed to wait until after they had tricked SNG to changing the rules to allow them. :D

 

SNG will soon have a better idea of what the true effect of opening pandora's box was. :lol:

 

When your opponent can outspend you 3-4 to 1 in an arms race, to you give him more room to play or less?

 

 

I said way back when Alinghi won the first appeal that it very well might turn into their worst nightmare. More time for Larry's money to drown them.

 

They kept right on building, developing, testing and sailing while A5 was collecting dust in the shed.

 

As far as area goes...I did hear someone say something about "retractable flaps". Not sure what that meant. We shall see soon enough.

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Only slightly off topic ... do you remember a post something to the effect that Steve Clark says there is no advantage to a wing if sail area is unlimited?

 

Everything you always wanted to know about hard wings (but then immediately forgot)

 

http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php?showtopic=95079

 

http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php?showtopic=94544

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Only slightly off topic ... do you remember a post something to the effect that Steve Clark says there is no advantage to a wing if sail area is unlimited?

 

Everything you always wanted to know about hard wings (but then immediately forgot)

 

http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php?showtopic=95079

 

http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php?showtopic=94544

 

Thank you!

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IIRC, and indeed as the photo above shows, a true "whomper" has to have a large picture of a Native American on it

 

Who will be the model this time? Do we know any Native Americans taking a close interest in this Americas Cup?

 

... thinks...

 

Oh god, NO!

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IIRC, and indeed as the photo above shows, a true "whomper" has to have a large picture of a Native American on it

 

Who will be the model this time? Do we know any Native Americans taking a close interest in this Americas Cup?

 

... thinks...

 

Oh god, NO!

 

 

Oh how delicious that would be !

 

But would waterfront pilgrims at RAK be happy ....

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Only slightly off topic ... do you remember a post something to the effect that Steve Clark says there is no advantage to a wing if sail area is unlimited?
Everything you always wanted to know about hard wings (but then immediately forgot)

http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php?showtopic=95079

http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php?showtopic=94544

Thank you!

 

There was also this:

"If you don't have sail area restrictions, you may find that the ideal wind and sail combination does not have the high lift devices necessary for the C Class wings. I know fuck all, so I was guessing."

 

http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php...amp;pid=2332103

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I don't understand why they would want an outboard rudder anyway.

 

Here's another thought. If it comes out with a wing, (which I seriously doubt), I can see them using kite power for down wind. Just gotta figure out how to launch it.

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They doing any work for ... um ... Boeing? :)

 

Doubtful. Scaled Composites is a subsidiary of Northrop Grumman these days.

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I don't understand why they would want an outboard rudder anyway.

 

Here's another thought. If it comes out with a wing, (which I seriously doubt), I can see them using kite power for down wind. Just gotta figure out how to launch it.

Kite power simply won't work on this sort of boat. Sorry. It works best on slow hulls with a limited top speed, like your typical 4ksb.

 

Really fast apparent wind machines drag the breeze so far forward off the wind that the useful envelope for kite traction just shrinks to nothing.

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Happy Birthday, Peelman!!!!!!!!!

 

13

 

I hope they got you some inverted T-foils as well as the WHOMPER!

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I don't understand why they would want an outboard rudder anyway.

 

Here's another thought. If it comes out with a wing, (which I seriously doubt), I can see them using kite power for down wind. Just gotta figure out how to launch it.

Kite power simply won't work on this sort of boat. Sorry. It works best on slow hulls with a limited top speed, like your typical 4ksb.

 

Really fast apparent wind machines drag the breeze so far forward off the wind that the useful envelope for kite traction just shrinks to nothing.

 

Zactly - watched a moth come into the marina 2 wkends ago , downwind in full flight - its boom was eased about 10 deg. if that much - and that's because the True Wind was up at around 22.

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Stick a fork in this thread. Its done.

Nope not done until we actually see a wing. And then we beat that David guy up for dissing Stingray ... :lol:

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Stick a fork in this thread. Its done.

Nope not done until we actually see a wing. And then we beat that David guy up for dissing Stingray ... :lol:

+1, I get it

 

Good on you and others too, for not being more definitive before it was time. Worked like a charm! Even 'David' will be impressed..

 

Sure hope they can make the W work and that it all holds together, that's going to be the next scary part. We don't even know if it arrived safely yet - talk about logistics right from the get-go - Yikes!

 

1200 mile WIDE LOAD indeed, that's a long frikkin way.

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Stick a fork in this thread. Its done.

Nope not done until we actually see a wing. And then we beat that David guy up for dissing Stingray ... :lol:

+1, I get it

 

Good on you and others too, for not being more definitive before it was time. Worked like a charm! Even 'David' will be impressed..

 

Sure hope they can make the W work and that it all holds together, that's going to be the next scary part. We don't even know if it arrived safely yet - talk about logitics right from the get-go - yikes!

 

 

Here's the next question for the assembled throngs....just how "spruce" is that wing. Is it old school? Is there really wood in it?

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Stick a fork in this thread. Its done.

Nope not done until we actually see a wing. And then we beat that David guy up for dissing Stingray ... :lol:

 

Working on it - paged him twice on the other thread but he's still MIA.

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1200 mile WIDE LOAD indeed, that's a long frikkin way.

 

This isn't Switzerland.

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