B 25 molds, save em or toss em?, bad times make for tough love Options

[40grit]

Got a call today, asking if I wanted this tooling, seems a shame to cut them up, the little fuckers are fast when it blows

[Danno]

Interesting....which ones? The Asian or the French?

[40grit]

Domestic as in Lief Bailey

[radio flyer]

brown 25?

MH asym, fixed keel deeper &lighter , ditch backstay for extra main roach

[Fasterdamnit]

If you can house them, why not? Build yourself one, use carbon for decks and inner structure, have a lighter, faster NEW B-25!

[sailsd]

Cool boats but not sure if you can build them cheap enough to sell them. That size range has many choices right now. Besides, Google "Left Coast Dart". A modern B25. Yes, Leif has up dated the design, a guy has made the molds and it is about to be ready for production.

[Shife]

Send 'em to the Ed to use as lawn ornaments.

[1SickPuppy]

Save 'em fer sure. We enjoyed ours tonight, surfing past a J44 who spotlighted our oversized kite and yelled "Cheater Boat", to which we responded "Prepare to be boarded and surrender your rum and women". I know of no other pocket rocket that has deck space for 8 bodies and still move decently.

[Gouvernail]

I have always had this fantasy of a large field full of various no longer in production molds and a business of buiulding one from any of those molds whenever asked for one....But I also think the business couldn't even pay the taxes on the field.

However..if you ahve a set of molds and waht a bioat built from it?? I think it might be fun to get involved....I know...Buy an ad.

[Pedro]

Save 'em fer sure. We enjoyed ours tonight, surfing past a J44 who spotlighted our oversized kite and yelled "Cheater Boat", to which we responded "Prepare to be boarded and surrender your rum and women". I know of no other pocket rocket that has deck space for 8 bodies and still move decently.

I was sitting on our deck watching the races tonight (con cerveza). There was no "surfing" out there I'm sure. Looked like a nice evening to be on the water though...

[Somebody Else]

The B-25 is a nice enough 21-year-old design considering it's under-canvased for everywhere in California except San Francisco. It was kind of a pre-sportboat sportboat, minus the sail area. It's a tuner's boat and rewards those with good sail tweaking skills.

But who would buy one? It's done. What do you expect to accomplish? The next Martin 242-2 Mk II. I think they actually built 2 or 3 of them. Are you going to tromp up and down the coast, pimping the class like Mike did for the Martin?

IF the hull were worth preserving (and that's a big "if") I would definitely ask Leif how much he would want for an updated (larger) sailplan. If Leif was smart he would do it for free and just ask for a few bucks from every sale. We could all take a stab at bumping up the rig and as long as the center of effort stays close to where it is with the standard mini-rig, you could even bypass Leif's design fee.

God knows I hate throwing stuff out, but is it worth it?

[40grit]

No I am not in a position to add to my current afliction. I'm thinking about scouring the countryside for J 24s to fix up and re sell. you know buy low and become bewildered.

[Synergy]

I think the hull design works very well. It looks very similar to many newer designs. It is the appendages that are out of date, not the hull. So I update the keel and rudder, along with extra roach in a new main. The shrouds are inboard, so you can use a 155% genoa on the boat or reduce to a jib in higher winds. I am very happy with my setup. It would cost upwards of $50,000 to equal its performance with a new boat. I like the symmetrical spinnaker for our lake sailing.

Attached File(s)

 Keel_01.JPG ( 253.17K ) Number of downloads: 124
 Keel_01.JPG ( 253.17K ) Number of downloads: 80
 B25MainComparison_LemStevens.bmp ( 242.12K ) Number of downloads: 119

 

[Johannos]

definitely a good looking boat, here in holland they're keeping molds of a lot uglyer and slower boats (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Foghorn77]

brown 25?

MH asym, fixed keel deeper &lighter , ditch backstay for extra main roach

+1
Cool boat, would be even cooler with an asym. and modern foils.

[Ryley]

Save 'em fer sure. We enjoyed ours tonight, surfing past a J44 who spotlighted our oversized kite and yelled "Cheater Boat", to which we responded "Prepare to be boarded and surrender your rum and women". I know of no other pocket rocket that has deck space for 8 bodies and still move decently.

you're right. my Elliott is crowded with 5. There are days I wish I had a boat that carried 8, just to get some more of my friends out sailing. My wife, however, reminds me that 'the second wife' will have to approve a larger racing boat. I like the one I've got (wife and boat).

[boomer]

Save 'em fer sure. We enjoyed ours tonight, surfing past a J44 who spotlighted our oversized kite and yelled "Cheater Boat", to which we responded "Prepare to be boarded and surrender your rum and women". I know of no other pocket rocket that has deck space for 8 bodies and still move decently.

you're right. my Elliott is crowded with 5. There are days I wish I had a boat that carried 8, just to get some more of my friends out sailing. My wife, however, reminds me that 'the second wife' will have to approve a larger racing boat. I like the one I've got (wife and boat).

Your wife has an interesting way of expressing herself...quite entertaining really....

[musicman]

It would be a shame to see these get cut up. I looked at the molds for the Evelyn 32, 25 & 42 and kick myself now that I didn't take the 32 molds....
Are the B 25 molds being given away? If so where are they?

[Snaggletooth]

Thats to bad, B25 was great plane!

[simbert]

Send the whole pile to Ed... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif)

[Somebody Else]

I like it: more sail area and better foils.

The question remains: who is going to buy a new one at today's costs?

(IMG:http://www.fincofab.com/images/B25_new_keel_752.jpg)

(IMG:http://www.fincofab.com/images/B25_mains.gif)

[Presuming Ed]

Just ask the Ed... Seems like time to revive this one...

SA ain't what it used to be:

EDITOR'S GOT MAIL
Here is a story that, if it wasn't true, would be hard to believe. As you know, here at Sailing Anarchy, we tend to take a different approach to talking about the sport of sailboat racing. I guess that's a nice way of saying that we're not afraid to open our mouths and voice our opinions on certain matters. When we find things that we like, we say it and when we find things that we don't, we say that too. Some of you agree, some of you don't and quite frankly, that's the way it's supposed to be.

One of the reasons we started this site is our general dissatisfaction with the way the sport is covered by the media. A lot of fluff, and nary a criticism to be found anywhere. Seahorse magazine being about the one lone exception. One of the things we find laughable are some of the boat reviews. Every boat is great and nobody ever has a complaint. Ludicrous, we say.

It was a few months ago that we came across a review by the great Peter Isler in Sailing World where he sang the praises of a little-known boat called the Bravura 29 and termed it a "great value" at well over $100,000. As is our right, hell, our obligation, we felt compelled to comment on both the boat and Isler's review. Many of you have already seen this, but here is the commentary that we wrote: Again, keeping in mind that we are Sailing Anarchy, this commentary is quite in keeping with our penchant for the occasional bash. So a couple days ago we get an e-mail from an obviously agitated Leif Beiley, the designer of the Bravura 29. He was pissed that we had called the boat a pig and threatened legal recourse. Of course the notion of suing for opinion on a public
matter is ridiculous, and we told him as much. We also offered a reasonable solution to his obvious displeasure. Here is his original e-mail, and our response. (By the way, the e-mails- there's plenty of 'em are in the order recieved and no content from either on has been edited. The editors comments between emails is Italicized.)

Bravura 29 (from rumors and lies)
So, we're looking around at the results at the recent North Sails Race Week in Long Beach, CA, and we notice that the new Leif Beiley designed Bravura 29 finished next to last in its PHRF Class. Now, we weren't there so we don't know what exactly happened, but the finishes were not good, and early reports are that the thing isn't very fast anyway. It's also a bit odd looking and seems to lack sail area and in this day of sprits and huge asso's, the sail plan seems pretty dated. Oh well, it's not exactly a Farr-type pedigree. Oh yeah, that and it's pretty pricey - something well over $100,000! But then we remembered that the great Peter Isler had reviewed this boat for Sailing World. Surely his knowledge of boats and Yale education would give us insight into this boat, right? Not exactly. Not only was his review politically correct drivel, it included this gem: when talking about the boat and price he referred to this 29', over $100,000 less than speedy speedster as "a great value." A great value? Not a "good" value, or a "fair" value, either of which would be inaccurate and flatly untrue. No Isler called it a "great
value".

Now the question is, for whom does Isler summate that this pig would be a great value? If it is such a "great value" we must assume that Isler has one on order, because surely he wouldn't want to pass up on a "great value", would he? Is there one person, besides the designer, who would possibly call this boat a "great value"? Obviously Isler feels no responsibility to provide an honest evaluation for readers. Now, granted no need to hammer the boat unmercifully, but jesus, how about stepping up and telling it like it is?

When Car & Driver reviews a car, you get an honest, albeit subjective review. And we know that all reviews are subjective. But I doubt you'll see them call, say a $100,000 Panoz Esperante a "great value". Perhaps a little dough changed hands during the Bravura 29 review? Now then we would understand what Isler means by "great value"!


B-1:You clearly don't know what your talking about in your article on the Bravura 29. You failed to identify who wrote that piece so I assume you have very good reasons for not wanting to be identified. I resent you referring to my boat as a pig. Most likely YOU are a pig. If you had done your job as a journalist and learned something about the Bravura 29 you would certainly not have published an article that was so blatantly ignorant. I will have my attorney investigate whether we have any legal recourse against the irresponsible article you published.
Leif BeileyBravura Yachts, Inc.

Hey, that's a nice response. One approach you might have considered would have been to say that you disagreed with a couple of points and offered a counterpoint. And had you offered it with anything less than the vitriol you just wrote with, I gladly would have printed it. However, you didn't choose that option, did you? Contact your attorney? Now that's funny.

(Now, here is where this story really heats up. By the way, we stand by all of the original article, even the dig at Isler. I think the boat is odd looking, I don't think it is very fast and I think it is too expensive. Whatever, that's my opinion. I'll grant you that calling the boat a pig in the article might be a bit harsh, but we're Sailing Anarchy remember? We say what we feel. But even we have a conscious and I felt like I should give the guy a chance which is why I gave him the chance to open a dialogue. He didn't think that was such a neat idea)

B2: I disagreed with ALL of it. You don't know anything about the boat. You don't have the guts to identify yourself and yes I've already contacted my attorney regarding it. It's possible that we can't do anything about your untrue and irresponsible journalism but I am certainly going to find out and if there is, we will.
Leif BeileyBravura Yachts

(Now at this point he still seems to have a grip on his facilities, and we can sort of understand his level of unhappiness. Sort of. We've not got much patience for this sort of whining.)

You disagreed with ALL of it? Gee, that's just too fucking bad, mate. In this country we have the right to voice our opinions. You don't like it? Some figure out a way to successfully communicate at least a partial resolution, and I've already told you how to do that. Yet others like you go running to their attorney. Sort of like the little boy who runs to their mommy when they hear a bad word. I gave you a chance to not be a complete douchebag.Looks like you opted for the douche. Want to sue me Beiley? Bring it on. It'll make a great story.
Scot Tempesta www.sailinganarchy.com

B3:I make my living building and selling boats. When you print irresponsible articles denigrating my boats and implying that I bribed Peter Isler you are hurting my business and my reputation. When you do it without any firsthand knowledge of the boat, what it was designed for or what it's target market is, that is plain irresponsible. Sure you have a right to your opinion but when you publish articles like that you've gone over line
because people don't stop to think that it's nothing more than your opinion which is not even based on any factual knowledge. The article was referred to me by a prospective buyer who asked me to explain it. I was stunned and shocked to read that someone would print such a thing as if it were fact, and I had to tell the guy that I didn't know who had done it and couldn't explain why it was done. Now, I don't know if he will eventually buy a boat from me but your article definitely had a negative impact on him. Why you chose to dump on a boat that you don't even know is beyond me but I'd like you to retract that article and apologize for printing it. And if my suing you over it would make a great story then maybe you've got yourself some publicity. I have referred the matter to my attorney. As I said before I don't know yet if we can do anything about you printing that article, but if you don't correct this situation I will take legal
action because you have already had a negative impact on my business. If you're half a man you'll publish this letter. Leif Beiley


(Now, clearly we've had enough of his whining: )

Hey Beiley - Here's a little something for you to ponder. When a movie gets a bad review, does the producer sue the critic? When an automotive publication gives a car a less-than stellar review, does the manufacturer sue the writer? No, they don't. Rather, they accept that not everybody agrees with their point of view. Do you think they threaten to sue for lost business? In fact, it is unlikely that they attack the critic at all. Isn't it more likely that they approach the critic from the perspective of trying to
affect better communication? Would you say that a Product Manager from Ford, upon hearing of a less-than favorable review of their latest "SUV" in Car and Driver would send the e-mails like you sent me, to say, Brock Yates? Pretty fucking unlikely. I would guess they would say something like "Hey, we heard you don't like the car, tell me what you don't like and maybe I can tell you why we did the things we did." And then a dialogue gets started. The threat of a lawsuit will get you nothing.
Perhaps you should have thought of that. The fact that I even have to tell you this is fairly indicative of your PR acumen. And don't give me any horseshit about people not knowing if it's opinion. It is under a section entitled "Rumors and Lies". Christ, even you should be able to figure that out.
I appreciate the fact that you design and build boats for a living. However it doesn't block me from voicing my opinion about them. This isn't China. The simple fact is that what I say is my belief. It's called Free Speech. Try to challenge that and you'll simply look like a bigger idiot than you've already presented yourself to be. There will be no retraction.
PS - You know, I was about to remove a couple of the older pieces like that one, but since you've continued to whine about your attorney and some toothless and laughable First Amendment challenge, instead of being smart enough to say, invite me up for a sail on the 29 to show me your perspective, I believe I'll leave it up for a bit longer. Thanks for asking, though.

(Here is where it gets really good. )

B4:Hey Shithead; Here's something for YOU to ponder. If you were a real journalist and wanted to write about our boat you would have contacted us. I would have been glad to give you a boat to sail and evaluate. Then if you wanted to criticize it you would at least have the benefit of knowing what you're talking about. Your article proves that you don't. And unlike you, real journalists get the facts before they publish a story. To use your analogy, car companies don't have to threaten lawsuits because the
journalists who write about their cars are bound by the standards of journalistic integrity set up by the publications they write for. Therefore their criticisms are legitimate, and not just a bunch of made up lies. For you to compare your drivel with Brock Yates? You must be joking. He's a professional with class and integrity, qualities you clearly lack. You on the other hand are a loser who apparently couldn't make it as a sailmaker or any other constructive endeavor so you've turned to something more compatible with your lack of character: Lies and bullshit. Keep it up Shithead, you're making enemies of the
people and companies in the industry you want to be part of . What an asshole.

(Now keep in mind, it was never purported that my original comment on my boat was anything even approaching a 'review'. If I wanted to do that, well obviously I would have to go sail it and all that. It was a general observation, from my perspective. )

Shithead? Loser? Asshole? Have you used up all your big words now, Beiley? I gave you your chance, but you are apparently too dim to have seen it. Too late now. You don't know shit about me, and don't act like you do. You on the other hand, have certainly shown me all I need to know about you. Nice work. Look for the story on my site next week. I'm sure you'll enjoy it. Be sure to call your attorney and tell him that you heard a bad word.

B5:Tempesta: Go ahead and publish some more lies. That's what you seem to be best at. You're utterly irrelevant anyway. You worthless shithead. I was wondering how to end the story. Thank you so much for the perfect finishing touch. And it's so in keeping with your previous eloquence. Again, thank you. Now, go fill all those orders for the Bravura 29.

(It is here that I'm hoping that this clown will just go away. But, no such luck! )

B6:Tempesta:You are a pathetic sack of shit. Nobody cares what you write because you lack the one essential ingredient that every writer and journalist must have: integrity.
You're irrelevant. You're a fart in the windstorm of life. Your parents never even thought you were worth teaching not to lie, or if they did, you were too stupid to grasp the meaning of that lesson. Go ahead shitbag, write whatever you want. No one cares because we all already know you are a LIAR. It's like what John Lennon said "One thing you can't hide is that you're crippled inside" Hey I know that in your stupid, pathetic, insipid way you were trying to get me to invite up to sail on one of my boats, but, you dick, you went about it ass backwards, you should have apologized for your lies and asked to come and sail a boat. Now you've blown it and everyone knows you are a lying
sack of shit. If and when you ever grow up you'll learn the value of integrity. Until then you'll be the low life pile of shit that you've shown yourself to be.

(Jesus! Who peed in this guy's Wheaties? Oh yeah, we did.)

What part of 'go away' don't you understand?

B7:My attorney has suggested something better than simply filing a lawsuit against you, you worthless liar. Check the attached file and you'll see what I've got planned for you. I am about to become your worst nightmare.

Here is the attachment that he included:
You Fraud: Go away? Not a chance of it, you fraud. You don't get it, do you? You publicly insulted me, wrote a pack of lies about my boat, cast aspersions on my character and that of a colleague and friend. And it was all a fabrication of your sick little mind. You owe me an apology. And you owe it to me and to Peter Isler to correct the lies you told. Go away? Not until you apologize and correct the bullshit story you wrote.The way to stop scum like you is to expose your fraud. Until you repair the damage you've done. I am going to make sure that my friends, colleagues and business associates know exactly what you've done. I will make sure the editors of Sail, Sailing World, Yachting, Seahorse, Latitude 38, Santana, 48 North, Southwinds and every other publication I do business with know about the moral bankruptcy of Scott Tempesta.
Until you repair the damage you've done I will make sure that my friends, colleagues and business associates at Harken, Lewmar, West Marine, Forespar, Edson, Ballenger, Seatec, Southern Spars, North Sails, Ullman, UK, Quantum, Banks, Elliott-Pattison, Andrews Yacht Design, Farr International, Bob Perry, Bruce Nelson, Joe Neal, Tom Wiley, Carl Schumacher, Morelli and Melvin, CompsitesOne, Revchem, Gougeon Brothers and all the shipyards I do business with are aware of the fraudulent bullshit put out by Scott Tempesta. Until you repair the damage you've done I will make sure my
fellow boat builders, including Barry Carroll, Lynn Bowser, Frank Butler, Jerry Douglas, Roger MacGregor, Marshall Duffield, Hank Morchlatt, Dennis Choate, Randy Reynolds, Paul Bieker, and John Conser know about what a LIAR Scott Tempesta is.
Until you repair the damage you've done, you pathetic bullshit artist, I'll make sure that all the people I sail with, my friends, clients and fellow boat owners know that Scott Tempesta is a prevaricator and fabricator of BULLSHIT.
You've created a mess for yourself, you liar, and the only way you can fix it is to repair the damage you've done. Go away? I'll go away after I've exposed you for the fraud you are.
LB


You appear to be someone who is less than stable. Because of your implied threats, I've forwarded this to my attorney. You're making yourself look really bad. Really, it's an embarrassment to yourself. I don't believe you'll be attracting many new customers when they read your rantings on my site. Congratulations.
ST

(Now, clearly this is all completely ridiculous, but if you can stand the tedium, here's more.)

B8:You're running to your attorney. You ARE a joke. What's his name? You're not much on telling the truth so I'd like to verify that you have referred anything to your attorney. I'll cc the letters I'm preparing to both you and your attorney, if you actually have one.


I'm not running anywhere, Beiley. The language and tone of your correspondence bears watching. You'll learn about my attorney if I deem it so. Now, for the salvation of what might be left of your self-respect, do yourself a huge favor and go away. Jesus, dude, you're going to look really bad here. I'd quit now if I were you.
ST

B9: Hey Tempesta, You Liar. The worst nightmare of a fraud and a liar is to be exposed for what they are. Here are the first three steps I am taking to make sure that everyone knows YOU for what you are. Step one: Since you're not one to check facts, you're probably not aware that I also have a website and guess what liar is going to be very
prominently featured in it next week. That's right, one Fraud Tempesta along with that pathetic piece of fiction you wrote and the true facts pertaining to you're bullshit article. Step two: I am sending letters to the editors of the various publications I mentioned in my previous email to you, along with that piece fiction you wrote, informing them of the fraudulence of Scott Tempesta, and to be aware of your lack of character.
Step three: I am sending letters to all of the business associates, friends and colleagues I mentioned along with that fabrication you wrote to inform them that there is one Scott Tempesta who is a Liar and to beware. Since you're not much on facts, I'm going to let you in on one more. Our industry is pretty tightly knit yet informal, and one of the most
important aspects of our business is the personal integrity of the people in it. You have soiled yourself and everyone I know in this business is going to know about it. The only way for you to salvage yourself is to repair the damage you've done.


Who cares? You no doubt will spin it with your own bias. I, on the other hand will print ALL your and my correspondence UNEDITED. I wouldn't count on many people waiting to buy boats from you after they read what you wrote. You don't just look silly, you appear to be insane. Again, congratulations.
ST

B10: I DARE you to print all of the "dialogue" between us. I was hoping you'd do exactly that. Can't wait to see it. I'm going to do the same thing.

Consider it done
ST

[doghouse]

ahh... the good ol days....

[musicman]

Man I had never seen that..... WOW!

On a slightly lighter note, I have an Evelyn 25 keel & mast plus a big enough pile of 18mm Nomex core to build a B 25 out of....
A flush deck B 25 with a masthead rig would be pretty cool.

[Savage 17]

John....

How is your boat coming? Why not just buy a west coast dart which is a more modern b-25 design.