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#1 Turd Sandwich

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 01:33 PM

Not a bad piece. Started to bang on big business for the abuse but stopped short of biting the hand. It has to be hard to do big time investigative reporting on companies that fund the liberal narrative but they gave it a shot. They also started to shed some light on the companies that are the middle men but left this almost untouched

 

Where they didnt even venture was the graft and corruption these middle men like our gold star buddy and his cronies are involved in to purchase the HB1 pathways for the tech giants but good on em for trying to expose the abuse.

 

I bet the phone at CBS was one angry mother fucker this morning



#2 Билли backstay

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 01:42 PM

CBS Sunday Morning did an excellent bit on all of the Chinese, and Philipinos who fly here on a temporary tourist Visas, never to return home. Way more Asians here illegaly, than Mexicans or South Americans. The $tupid wall, will do NADA to change thi$....

#3 Rockdog

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 02:50 PM

The isn't intended for them. Duh.

#4 Turd Sandwich

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 04:38 PM

Nothing but crickets when the truth hits home and the lefts heros are exposed for who they really are.

 

Facebook

Microsoft

Google

Oracle

 

Basically any huge technology company or as 60 minutes shows even regular companies that have large IT needs all are doubling down to fuck over American workers.

120,000.00 cut magically in half and you wonder where the bribes come in.



#5 Saorsa

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 04:40 PM

The IEEE has been complaining about this since at least the 70's.


CBS Sunday Morning did an excellent bit on all of the Chinese, and Philipinos who fly here on a temporary tourist Visas, never to return home. Way more Asians here illegaly, than Mexicans or South Americans. The $tupid wall, will do NADA to change thi$....

 

Plenty of canadians too.



#6 miscut jib

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 06:30 PM

Nothing but crickets when the truth hits home and the lefts heros are exposed for who they really are.

 

Facebook

Microsoft

Google

Oracle

 

Basically any huge technology company or as 60 minutes shows even regular companies that have large IT needs all are doubling down to fuck over American workers.

120,000.00 cut magically in half and you wonder where the bribes come in.

 

You really are an ignorant asshole.

 

Plenty of the left, on this forum, have complained about the abuses for years. Including me shit for brains. Cutting the numbers just cuts the hiring pool for US company's and makes them decide to... leave the US. WINNING!

 

Google - a multi billion US company founded by 2 immigrants.



#7 Turd Sandwich

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 06:47 PM

 

Nothing but crickets when the truth hits home and the lefts heros are exposed for who they really are.

 

Facebook

Microsoft

Google

Oracle

 

Basically any huge technology company or as 60 minutes shows even regular companies that have large IT needs all are doubling down to fuck over American workers.

120,000.00 cut magically in half and you wonder where the bribes come in.

 

You really are an ignorant asshole.

 

Plenty of the left, on this forum, have complained about the abuses for years. Including me shit for brains. Cutting the numbers just cuts the hiring pool for US company's and makes them decide to... leave the US. WINNING!

 

Google - a multi billion US company founded by 2 immigrants.

 

Just so you get where i'm coming from

 

I consider some Indian that gets extorted for loads of cash from some fuckstick middleman to basically purchase an HB1 through graft and corruption to be an illegal immigrant. The only way these purveyors of the american dream exist is because of cash from American companies willing to exploit these folks from India in the first place in order to cut costs.

 

Both the immigrant and the American worker lose. The bottom line.



#8 miscut jib

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 08:19 PM

I consider some Indian that gets extorted for loads of cash from some fuckstick middleman to basically purchase an HB1 through graft and corruption to be an illegal immigrant. The only way these purveyors of the american dream exist is because of cash from American companies willing to exploit these folks from India in the first place in order to cut costs.

 

I've worked with dozens of H1-B immigrants. None meet your description. Many of them go on to earn a green card and citizenship.  We gain an educated hard worker, some of whom found their own company's and make the US richer.

 

Yes, H1-Bs have driven down wages; how much you'd have to increase wages to graduate the science and engineering students necessary to fill the demand is a different matter. I doubt we could do it from the domestic talent pool alone. 



#9 A_guy_in_the_Chesapeake

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 08:21 PM

 

I consider some Indian that gets extorted for loads of cash from some fuckstick middleman to basically purchase an HB1 through graft and corruption to be an illegal immigrant. The only way these purveyors of the american dream exist is because of cash from American companies willing to exploit these folks from India in the first place in order to cut costs.

 

I've worked with dozens of H1-B immigrants. None meet your description. Many of them go on to earn a green card and citizenship.  We gain an educated hard worker, some of whom found their own company's and make the US richer.

 

Yes, H1-Bs have driven down wages; how much you'd have to increase wages to graduate the science and engineering students necessary to fill the demand is a different matter. I doubt we could do it from the domestic talent pool alone. 

 

 

Why do you think that? 



#10 Raz'r

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 08:23 PM

 

 

I consider some Indian that gets extorted for loads of cash from some fuckstick middleman to basically purchase an HB1 through graft and corruption to be an illegal immigrant. The only way these purveyors of the american dream exist is because of cash from American companies willing to exploit these folks from India in the first place in order to cut costs.

 

I've worked with dozens of H1-B immigrants. None meet your description. Many of them go on to earn a green card and citizenship.  We gain an educated hard worker, some of whom found their own company's and make the US richer.

 

Yes, H1-Bs have driven down wages; how much you'd have to increase wages to graduate the science and engineering students necessary to fill the demand is a different matter. I doubt we could do it from the domestic talent pool alone. 

 

 

Why do you think that? 

 

 

because we just don't have enough straight A kids going into engineering.

 

With this system we get the best US kids AND the best Indian, Chinese, German, French, etc, etc, etc kids.

 

Why WOULDN"T you want this intellectual capital in the US - driving US industry forward?

 

To borrow & butcher a demographics phrase "India has more kids in the top 10% than the US has kids"

Substitute China in there as well. (China has more english speakers than the US has people is another good one)



#11 miscut jib

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 08:30 PM

 

. I doubt we could do it from the domestic talent pool alone. 

 

 

Why do you think that? 

 

 

1 - problems with a broad base of quality science and math education across the US.

2 - women find job satisfaction in science and engineering lacking

3 - to support the increased wages you'd need increased productivity from the workers. 

4 - just simple population to draw from in rough numbers 3 billion people i.e China + India + Europe vs. 300 million people (US alone)

 

I'm aware of the abuses of the system. I'm also acutely aware that this industry isn't our birthright. It can, and will, leave for a place with a better business environment which includes access to quality workers.



#12 Saorsa

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 08:32 PM

 

You really are an ignorant asshole.

 

Plenty of the left, on this forum, have complained about the abuses for years. Including me shit for brains. Cutting the numbers just cuts the hiring pool for US company's and makes them decide to... leave the US. WINNING!

 

Google - a multi billion US company founded by 2 immigrants.

 

 

Larry Page was born in Michigan.  Sergie Brin arrived, aged 6, legally, with his parents.

 

 Both were educated in the US and funded by the NSF.



#13 A_guy_in_the_Chesapeake

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 08:37 PM

Flash said "because we just don't have enough straight A kids going into engineering.". 

 

I don't know that that's entirely accurate. We've got plenty of 'em - and education has, in the past 10 years at least, been increasingly focused on STEM.  I know that in my second son's HS class, that about 40% of the kids going on to college were going into some kind of engineering discipline.   I don't know if this is something that's observable mostly in the mid-atlantic region or not.  

 

There are indeed advantages to the un-sullied perspectives of someone with bright eyes and a different outlook, but, I don't think that means we couldn't meet the needs with our own students, either.  There's lots of bright, motivated kids who would do well if the collective "we" simply better helped them understand what opportunities exist, and what they needed to do to be positioned to take advantage of those opportunities.   THIS is one of the big failures of our educational system.  

 

My point is that I don't think we should be saying "we can't", and focusing on H1Bs over developing our own kids. A healthy mix benefits everyone.  



#14 A_guy_in_the_Chesapeake

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 08:40 PM

 

 

. I doubt we could do it from the domestic talent pool alone. 

 

 

Why do you think that? 

 

 

1 - problems with a broad base of quality science and math education across the US.

2 - women find job satisfaction in science and engineering lacking

3 - to support the increased wages you'd need increased productivity from the workers. 

4 - just simple population to draw from in rough numbers 3 billion people i.e China + India + Europe vs. 300 million people (US alone)

 

I'm aware of the abuses of the system. I'm also acutely aware that this industry isn't our birthright. It can, and will, leave for a place with a better business environment which includes access to quality workers.

 

 

Indeed.  There's also a balancing point at which the cost of doing business in a place with no legal protection of intellectual capital becomes more attractive than expensive labor and costly regulatory compliance.  Establishing/maintaining that balance might be a good thing to make it into the national agenda. 



#15 miscut jib

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 08:47 PM

We've got plenty of 'em 

 

Sort of. Here's a nice report:

https://www.bls.gov/...yes-and-yes.htm

and there's the attrition for incoming students:

https://nces.ed.gov/.../2014001rev.pdf

 

Saorsa - Trump wants to cut legal immigration too



#16 SV Airlie

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 09:10 PM

 

We've got plenty of 'em 

 

Sort of. Here's a nice report:

https://www.bls.gov/...yes-and-yes.htm

and there's the attrition for incoming students:

https://nces.ed.gov/.../2014001rev.pdf

 

Saorsa - Trump wants to cut legal immigration too

 

 

He wants to make America white and Christian again!



#17 Rockdog

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 09:32 PM

Nothing but crickets when the truth hits home and the lefts heros are exposed for who they really are.
 
Facebook
Microsoft
Google
Oracle
 
Basically any huge technology company or as 60 minutes shows even regular companies that have large IT needs all are doubling down to fuck over American workers.
120,000.00 cut magically in half and you wonder where the bribes come in.


It's not just IT.

#18 Rockdog

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 09:34 PM

Nothing but crickets when the truth hits home and the lefts heros are exposed for who they really are.
 
Facebook
Microsoft
Google
Oracle
 
Basically any huge technology company or as 60 minutes shows even regular companies that have large IT needs all are doubling down to fuck over American workers.
120,000.00 cut magically in half and you wonder where the bribes come in.

 
You really are an ignorant asshole.
 
Plenty of the left, on this forum, have complained about the abuses for years. Including me shit for brains. Cutting the numbers just cuts the hiring pool for US company's and makes them decide to... leave the US. WINNING!
 
Google - a multi billion US company founded by 2 immigrants.

Actually we didn't hear how Obama fucked over Americans and how Hillary wanted to continue. We did hear people say trump did it.

#19 Rockdog

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 09:36 PM

 

Nothing but crickets when the truth hits home and the lefts heros are exposed for who they really are.
 
Facebook
Microsoft
Google
Oracle
 
Basically any huge technology company or as 60 minutes shows even regular companies that have large IT needs all are doubling down to fuck over American workers.
120,000.00 cut magically in half and you wonder where the bribes come in.

 
You really are an ignorant asshole.
 
Plenty of the left, on this forum, have complained about the abuses for years. Including me shit for brains. Cutting the numbers just cuts the hiring pool for US company's and makes them decide to... leave the US. WINNING!
 
Google - a multi billion US company founded by 2 immigrants.
 
Just so you get where i'm coming from
 
I consider some Indian that gets extorted for loads of cash from some fuckstick middleman to basically purchase an HB1 through graft and corruption to be an illegal immigrant. The only way these purveyors of the american dream exist is because of cash from American companies willing to exploit these folks from India in the first place in order to cut costs.
 
Both the immigrant and the American worker lose. The bottom line.

The immigrant wins. Why else would they come here? It's still 4x the pay in their homeland.

#20 SV Airlie

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 09:48 PM

 

 

 

Nothing but crickets when the truth hits home and the lefts heros are exposed for who they really are.
 
Facebook
Microsoft
Google
Oracle
 
Basically any huge technology company or as 60 minutes shows even regular companies that have large IT needs all are doubling down to fuck over American workers.
120,000.00 cut magically in half and you wonder where the bribes come in.

 
You really are an ignorant asshole.
 
Plenty of the left, on this forum, have complained about the abuses for years. Including me shit for brains. Cutting the numbers just cuts the hiring pool for US company's and makes them decide to... leave the US. WINNING!
 
Google - a multi billion US company founded by 2 immigrants.
 
Just so you get where i'm coming from
 
I consider some Indian that gets extorted for loads of cash from some fuckstick middleman to basically purchase an HB1 through graft and corruption to be an illegal immigrant. The only way these purveyors of the american dream exist is because of cash from American companies willing to exploit these folks from India in the first place in order to cut costs.
 
Both the immigrant and the American worker lose. The bottom line.

The immigrant wins. Why else would they come here? It's still 4x the pay in their homeland.

 

 

Let's see which immigrants are you referring to? Mexicans come here to work because American kids are more interested in watching TV and whining the work offered is too hard. Or it's too hot. Mexicans find work. Even Trump's son is using this to hire workers for his vineyards. Of course, being a Trump he'll pay them minimum wage if that.



#21 Bent Sailor

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 10:19 PM

Nothing but crickets when the truth hits home and the lefts heros are exposed for who they really are.

 

Facebook

Microsoft

Google

Oracle

 

Basically any huge technology company or as 60 minutes shows even regular companies that have large IT needs all are doubling down to fuck over American workers.

120,000.00 cut magically in half and you wonder where the bribes come in.

 

Facebook? Microsoft? Oracle? Heroes? You really don't know what you're talking about if you think the left views them as "heroes".

 

No-one is doubling down to "fuck over american workers". They're doing it because your education system fucking blows and they get better people from overseas. Not just from the brown & yellow skinned countries you guys are panicking about - you guys pay us Aussies big bucks to come over too. 



#22 Bent Sailor

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 10:24 PM

My point is that I don't think we should be saying "we can't", and focusing on H1Bs over developing our own kids. A healthy mix benefits everyone.  

 

I agree, you should improve the education system that is failing you in this regard. That said, any action there isn't going to bear (enouhg) fruit for at least a decade. The companies in question aren't going to sit on their hands waiting for the US to pull it's collective finger out of it's backside - they've got competition to beat and money to make. They need X innovative engineers that know what they're doing; the US isn't supplying them so if they can't bring them from elsewhere to the US, they're going to move the facilities to where they can.



#23 Saorsa

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 10:30 PM

 

We've got plenty of 'em 

 

Sort of. Here's a nice report:

https://www.bls.gov/...yes-and-yes.htm

and there's the attrition for incoming students:

https://nces.ed.gov/.../2014001rev.pdf

 

Saorsa - Trump wants to cut legal immigration too

 

 

H1Bs are legal immigration.



#24 cmilliken

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 10:38 PM

 

Nothing but crickets when the truth hits home and the lefts heros are exposed for who they really are.

 

Facebook

Microsoft

Google

Oracle

 

Basically any huge technology company or as 60 minutes shows even regular companies that have large IT needs all are doubling down to fuck over American workers.

120,000.00 cut magically in half and you wonder where the bribes come in.

 

Facebook? Microsoft? Oracle? Heroes? You really don't know what you're talking about if you think the left views them as "heroes".

 

No-one is doubling down to "fuck over american workers". They're doing it because your education system fucking blows and they get better people from overseas. Not just from the brown & yellow skinned countries you guys are panicking about - you guys pay us Aussies big bucks to come over too. 

 

 

Which education system blows?  Our grad schools are jammed with non-Americans.  Our PUBLIC education system.. hm.. maybe there's a point - but we're not actually allowed to change that.

 

All snark aside, one thing people don't take in account for - the US gets many of THE BEST of the students from around the world.  We're not getting 'average joe Indian kid..' .. we're getting the top of the top grad school work-o-holic type A rocket scientists or tutored-from-birth-Chinese-businessman-offspring.  Even the Indian sweat shops aren't just picking random kids.  They know what they have to offer and kids know what they have to do to get the opportunity.  No one is naive in that game.  It's top tier talent working to improve their lot.

 

I've worked with Indians for decades.  One of my best friends was literally the top kid in his district of 20,000+ students, selected by scholarship, blah blah.  And we're getting their efforts for pennies on the dollar.  

 

The great American dream has been built by exploiting the SHIT out of geniuses and hard ass workers.  From rail roads and nuclear bombs to Internet and startups, we get the best because we're stable and have a system that allowed for it.



#25 Raz'r

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 10:41 PM

Flash said "because we just don't have enough straight A kids going into engineering.". 

 

I don't know that that's entirely accurate. We've got plenty of 'em - and education has, in the past 10 years at least, been increasingly focused on STEM.  I know that in my second son's HS class, that about 40% of the kids going on to college were going into some kind of engineering discipline.   I don't know if this is something that's observable mostly in the mid-atlantic region or not.  

 

There are indeed advantages to the un-sullied perspectives of someone with bright eyes and a different outlook, but, I don't think that means we couldn't meet the needs with our own students, either.  There's lots of bright, motivated kids who would do well if the collective "we" simply better helped them understand what opportunities exist, and what they needed to do to be positioned to take advantage of those opportunities.   THIS is one of the big failures of our educational system.  

 

My point is that I don't think we should be saying "we can't", and focusing on H1Bs over developing our own kids. A healthy mix benefits everyone.  

 

 

there literally aren't enough graduates. Period.

 

Trust me, I'd much rather hire a US citizen than a kid with a student visa.

 

Why don't US kids take engineering? Too hard? Lifestyle sucks (damn competitive, damn long hours). Pay is higher for Marketing, Advertising, Sales, Finance

 

Pick your poison.



#26 Bent Sailor

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 10:48 PM

 

 

Nothing but crickets when the truth hits home and the lefts heros are exposed for who they really are.

 

Facebook

Microsoft

Google

Oracle

 

Basically any huge technology company or as 60 minutes shows even regular companies that have large IT needs all are doubling down to fuck over American workers.

120,000.00 cut magically in half and you wonder where the bribes come in.

 

Facebook? Microsoft? Oracle? Heroes? You really don't know what you're talking about if you think the left views them as "heroes".

 

No-one is doubling down to "fuck over american workers". They're doing it because your education system fucking blows and they get better people from overseas. Not just from the brown & yellow skinned countries you guys are panicking about - you guys pay us Aussies big bucks to come over too. 

 

 

Which education system blows?  Our grad schools are jammed with non-Americans.  Our PUBLIC education system.. hm.. maybe there's a point - but we're not actually allowed to change that.

 

All snark aside, one thing people don't take in account for - the US gets many of THE BEST of the students from around the world.  We're not getting 'average joe Indian kid..' .. we're getting the top of the top grad school work-o-holic type A rocket scientists or tutored-from-birth-Chinese-businessman-offspring.  Even the Indian sweat shops aren't just picking random kids.  They know what they have to offer and kids know what they have to do to get the opportunity.  No one is naive in that game.  It's top tier talent working to improve their lot.

 

I've worked with Indians for decades.  One of my best friends was literally the top kid in his district of 20,000+ students, selected by scholarship, blah blah.  And we're getting their efforts for pennies on the dollar.  

 

The great American dream has been built by exploiting the SHIT out of geniuses and hard ass workers.  From rail roads and nuclear bombs to Internet and startups, we get the best because we're stable and have a system that allowed for it.

 

Yeah, that too. Welcome to the "Doubling Down to Fuck Over American Workers" club. We have a well-stocked bar, the waitresses are cute, and live streams from around the US of art major graduates working McDonald's to laugh & jeer at courtesy of our heroes in MicroGoogleBookle.



#27 miscut jib

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 10:59 PM

 Our grad schools are jammed with non-Americans.  Our PUBLIC education system.. hm.. maybe there's a point - but we're not actually allowed to change that.

 

Many of those great grad schools are public or heavily funded with public dollars. I'd say a vast majority of them, they are called research grants. The public K-12 can be pretty damn good. The problem, isn't ime, the teachers union as it is meddling batshit crazy parents at the local level who are, ime, unrelentingly conservative. "why do we have to learn about evolution"



#28 movable ballast

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 11:00 PM

H1B visas have their place. Training your replacement worker is not the place. The system is being abused by the above mentioned companies. This is something that needs to be halted ASAP.

 

This is not a left or right thing it's a right and wrong thing.



#29 miscut jib

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 11:01 PM

 

Why don't US kids take engineering? Too hard? Lifestyle sucks (damn competitive, damn long hours). Pay is higher for Marketing, Advertising, Sales, Finance

 

 

Bolded is why several I know didn't stick with it. Perfect SAT, and a couple near perfects decided it wasn't worth it. Better, more interesting, challenges elsewhere. 

 

no MB, it really isn't being abused by those company's. move past the headlines.



#30 Raz'r

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 11:06 PM

H1B visas have their place. Training your replacement worker is not the place. The system is being abused by the above mentioned companies. This is something that needs to be halted ASAP.

 

This is not a left or right thing it's a right and wrong thing.

 

in general I'd agree with that.

 

The challenge of course is that outsourcing of IT jobs is pretty easy.

You don't need H1B visas to do THAT.



#31 Raz'r

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 11:09 PM

 

 

Why don't US kids take engineering? Too hard? Lifestyle sucks (damn competitive, damn long hours). Pay is higher for Marketing, Advertising, Sales, Finance

 

 

Bolded is why several I know didn't stick with it. Perfect SAT, and a couple near perfects decided it wasn't worth it. Better, more interesting, challenges elsewhere. 

 

no MB, it really isn't being abused by those company's. move past the headlines.

 

 

As a Silicon Valley lifer - and likely to age out shortly (I've gotten a bit of a reprieve) the long hours are celebrated. Similar to the hours you'd see for a person bucking for partner at a management consulting firm.  But management consulting pays a lot more. I have a good friend (now citizen) who's done several startups, made a bunch, is a VP at a pretty darn well know firm.

 

His straight A, Engineering kid, got a masters, and works in Finance.

 

More money.



#32 movable ballast

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 11:10 PM

IT service jobs can be outsourced. The boots on the ground need to be here. It's my understanding that the H1B jobs are US based.



#33 movable ballast

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 11:14 PM

Lot's of young US kids in engineering, they are finally realizing any degree that starts with BA does not pay...  



#34 Rockdog

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 11:20 PM

 

 


 

Nothing but crickets when the truth hits home and the lefts heros are exposed for who they really are.
 
Facebook
Microsoft
Google
Oracle
 
Basically any huge technology company or as 60 minutes shows even regular companies that have large IT needs all are doubling down to fuck over American workers.
120,000.00 cut magically in half and you wonder where the bribes come in.

 
You really are an ignorant asshole.
 
Plenty of the left, on this forum, have complained about the abuses for years. Including me shit for brains. Cutting the numbers just cuts the hiring pool for US company's and makes them decide to... leave the US. WINNING!
 
Google - a multi billion US company founded by 2 immigrants.
 
Just so you get where i'm coming from
 
I consider some Indian that gets extorted for loads of cash from some fuckstick middleman to basically purchase an HB1 through graft and corruption to be an illegal immigrant. The only way these purveyors of the american dream exist is because of cash from American companies willing to exploit these folks from India in the first place in order to cut costs.
 
Both the immigrant and the American worker lose. The bottom line.
The immigrant wins. Why else would they come here? It's still 4x the pay in their homeland.
 
 
Let's see which immigrants are you referring to? Mexicans come here to work because American kids are more interested in watching TV and whining the work offered is too hard. Or it's too hot. Mexicans find work. Even Trump's son is using this to hire workers for his vineyards. Of course, being a Trump he'll pay them minimum wage if that.

The H1B1 immigrants with degrees. No matter what they are better off here than at home. That's is the reason they come. American workers get screwed.

#35 SV Airlie

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 11:24 PM

 

 

 

 

 

Nothing but crickets when the truth hits home and the lefts heros are exposed for who they really are.
 
Facebook
Microsoft
Google
Oracle
 
Basically any huge technology company or as 60 minutes shows even regular companies that have large IT needs all are doubling down to fuck over American workers.
120,000.00 cut magically in half and you wonder where the bribes come in.

 
You really are an ignorant asshole.
 
Plenty of the left, on this forum, have complained about the abuses for years. Including me shit for brains. Cutting the numbers just cuts the hiring pool for US company's and makes them decide to... leave the US. WINNING!
 
Google - a multi billion US company founded by 2 immigrants.
 
Just so you get where i'm coming from
 
I consider some Indian that gets extorted for loads of cash from some fuckstick middleman to basically purchase an HB1 through graft and corruption to be an illegal immigrant. The only way these purveyors of the american dream exist is because of cash from American companies willing to exploit these folks from India in the first place in order to cut costs.
 
Both the immigrant and the American worker lose. The bottom line.
The immigrant wins. Why else would they come here? It's still 4x the pay in their homeland.
 
 
Let's see which immigrants are you referring to? Mexicans come here to work because American kids are more interested in watching TV and whining the work offered is too hard. Or it's too hot. Mexicans find work. Even Trump's son is using this to hire workers for his vineyards. Of course, being a Trump he'll pay them minimum wage if that.

The H1B1 immigrants with degrees. No matter what they are better off here than at home. That's is the reason they come. American workers get screwed.

 

 

So, Eric Trump hires folks with degrees in his Vineyards, Right! Glad to know that! Also, I suppose minimum wages and no housing is great for them. Doubt that a Trump would give them housing, or a roof over their heads and if he does, it would likely come out of their paychecks.



#36 movable ballast

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 11:27 PM

This has nothing to do with Trump. H1B visas skyrocketed under BHO. I would think this is one thing that most would like Trump to fix. but maybe not...



#37 movable ballast

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 11:28 PM

TDS is big today I see.



#38 Rockdog

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 11:29 PM

 

 

 

Nothing but crickets when the truth hits home and the lefts heros are exposed for who they really are.
 
Facebook
Microsoft
Google
Oracle
 
Basically any huge technology company or as 60 minutes shows even regular companies that have large IT needs all are doubling down to fuck over American workers.
120,000.00 cut magically in half and you wonder where the bribes come in.

 
You really are an ignorant asshole.
 
Plenty of the left, on this forum, have complained about the abuses for years. Including me shit for brains. Cutting the numbers just cuts the hiring pool for US company's and makes them decide to... leave the US. WINNING!
 
Google - a multi billion US company founded by 2 immigrants.
 
Just so you get where i'm coming from
 
I consider some Indian that gets extorted for loads of cash from some fuckstick middleman to basically purchase an HB1 through graft and corruption to be an illegal immigrant. The only way these purveyors of the american dream exist is because of cash from American companies willing to exploit these folks from India in the first place in order to cut costs.
 
Both the immigrant and the American worker lose. The bottom line.
The immigrant wins. Why else would they come here? It's still 4x the pay in their homeland.
 
 
Let's see which immigrants are you referring to? Mexicans come here to work because American kids are more interested in watching TV and whining the work offered is too hard. Or it's too hot. Mexicans find work. Even Trump's son is using this to hire workers for his vineyards. Of course, being a Trump he'll pay them minimum wage if that.

When I was a kid the typical after school job was fast food or 7-11. Adults have those jobs now. No truck farms around here but plenty of nurseries.

#39 Rockdog

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 11:38 PM

Nothing but crickets when the truth hits home and the lefts heros are exposed for who they really are.
 
Facebook
Microsoft
Google
Oracle
 
Basically any huge technology company or as 60 minutes shows even regular companies that have large IT needs all are doubling down to fuck over American workers.
120,000.00 cut magically in half and you wonder where the bribes come in.

 
Facebook? Microsoft? Oracle? Heroes? You really don't know what you're talking about if you think the left views them as "heroes".
 
No-one is doubling down to "fuck over american workers". They're doing it because your education system fucking blows and they get better people from overseas. Not just from the brown & yellow skinned countries you guys are panicking about - you guys pay us Aussies big bucks to come over too. 

I've worked with one Aussie over the years. Married a girl he on line. He was an awful engineer but tons of fun.

#40 Rockdog

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 11:40 PM

 

Nothing but crickets when the truth hits home and the lefts heros are exposed for who they really are.
 
Facebook
Microsoft
Google
Oracle
 
Basically any huge technology company or as 60 minutes shows even regular companies that have large IT needs all are doubling down to fuck over American workers.
120,000.00 cut magically in half and you wonder where the bribes come in.

 
Facebook? Microsoft? Oracle? Heroes? You really don't know what you're talking about if you think the left views them as "heroes".
 
No-one is doubling down to "fuck over american workers". They're doing it because your education system fucking blows and they get better people from overseas. Not just from the brown & yellow skinned countries you guys are panicking about - you guys pay us Aussies big bucks to come over too. 
 
 
Which education system blows?  Our grad schools are jammed with non-Americans.  Our PUBLIC education system.. hm.. maybe there's a point - but we're not actually allowed to change that.
 
All snark aside, one thing people don't take in account for - the US gets many of THE BEST of the students from around the world.  We're not getting 'average joe Indian kid..' .. we're getting the top of the top grad school work-o-holic type A rocket scientists or tutored-from-birth-Chinese-businessman-offspring.  Even the Indian sweat shops aren't just picking random kids.  They know what they have to offer and kids know what they have to do to get the opportunity.  No one is naive in that game.  It's top tier talent working to improve their lot.
 
I've worked with Indians for decades.  One of my best friends was literally the top kid in his district of 20,000+ students, selected by scholarship, blah blah.  And we're getting their efforts for pennies on the dollar.  
 
The great American dream has been built by exploiting the SHIT out of geniuses and hard ass workers.  From rail roads and nuclear bombs to Internet and startups, we get the best because we're stable and have a system that allowed for it.

+1

#41 Rockdog

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 11:42 PM

Flash said "because we just don't have enough straight A kids going into engineering.". 
 
I don't know that that's entirely accurate. We've got plenty of 'em - and education has, in the past 10 years at least, been increasingly focused on STEM.  I know that in my second son's HS class, that about 40% of the kids going on to college were going into some kind of engineering discipline.   I don't know if this is something that's observable mostly in the mid-atlantic region or not.  
 
There are indeed advantages to the un-sullied perspectives of someone with bright eyes and a different outlook, but, I don't think that means we couldn't meet the needs with our own students, either.  There's lots of bright, motivated kids who would do well if the collective "we" simply better helped them understand what opportunities exist, and what they needed to do to be positioned to take advantage of those opportunities.   THIS is one of the big failures of our educational system.  
 
My point is that I don't think we should be saying "we can't", and focusing on H1Bs over developing our own kids. A healthy mix benefits everyone.  

 
 
there literally aren't enough graduates. Period.
 
Trust me, I'd much rather hire a US citizen than a kid with a student visa.
 
Why don't US kids take engineering? Too hard? Lifestyle sucks (damn competitive, damn long hours). Pay is higher for Marketing, Advertising, Sales, Finance
 
Pick your poison.

If you can't find a fresh engineering grad you aren't paying enough. One good way is internship.

#42 cmilliken

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 11:43 PM

It's off topic but what's killing American jobs isn't globalism or visas.. it's automation

 

Need 1000 acres plowed?  I got a machine for that.  Computers and cell phones?  Pretty much machine except for the final clip clip.  Buying pizza?  Yup.. app is ready.  Nike is rolling out a shoe that orders with a click of a button from the nearest Pizza Hut.  Fridge that orders milk if you're low?  Dial it up.   Factories without workers?  Yea.. we got those.

 

Here's some ugly truths - Computer AIs are way better at medicine than actual doctors.  They don't have bias or believe everyone is a special flower.  They follow symptoms, analytics, and bell curves.  Surgery is being done by machine.  Supertankers? AI + GPS has that covered.  Same with Airplanes.  Air traffic controllers?  There experimenting with AI driven landing that can increase the density of planes by 300% without any increase in infrastructure.  Know what will drive vehicle automation?  Computer trucking and traffic jams.  AIs can fit 2-3x as many cars on each freeway WHILE getting rid of traffic jams.  You don't NEED new freeways - you need cars that talk to each other.

 

We don't need nearly as many people doing stuff.  We just don't.  What we've got to do is figure out what to do with them and with all the old people who aren't going to die.



#43 Rockdog

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 11:47 PM

 
Why don't US kids take engineering? Too hard? Lifestyle sucks (damn competitive, damn long hours). Pay is higher for Marketing, Advertising, Sales, Finance
 

 
Bolded is why several I know didn't stick with it. Perfect SAT, and a couple near perfects decided it wasn't worth it. Better, more interesting, challenges elsewhere. 
 
no MB, it really isn't being abused by those company's. move past the headlines.

It's definitely being abused. Can always tell the job postings designed to target them. Extremely specific experience, higher than job title required education, much lower pay than education level.

#44 movable ballast

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 11:57 PM

CJM I totally agree but H1Bs is the topic.



#45 miscut jib

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Posted 21 March 2017 - 12:02 AM

More money.

 

 

Yup. Tough productivity nut to crack for a product firm.



#46 Saorsa

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Posted 21 March 2017 - 12:02 AM

 

My point is that I don't think we should be saying "we can't", and focusing on H1Bs over developing our own kids. A healthy mix benefits everyone.  

 

I agree, you should improve the education system that is failing you in this regard. That said, any action there isn't going to bear (enouhg) fruit for at least a decade. The companies in question aren't going to sit on their hands waiting for the US to pull it's collective finger out of it's backside - they've got competition to beat and money to make. They need X innovative engineers that know what they're doing; the US isn't supplying them so if they can't bring them from elsewhere to the US, they're going to move the facilities to where they can.

 

 

Maybe we should get rid of student visas.



#47 miscut jib

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Posted 21 March 2017 - 12:06 AM

IWe don't need nearly as many people doing stuff.  We just don't.  What we've got to do is figure out what to do with them and with all the old people who aren't going to die.

 

The  current administrations answer is cut benefits and let them fend for themselves. Hello apple women! (aka the Russian retirees who couldn't afford anything after the devaluation of their pensions and were reduced to selling fruit at metro exits)


 

 

My point is that I don't think we should be saying "we can't", and focusing on H1Bs over developing our own kids. A healthy mix benefits everyone.  

 

I agree, you should improve the education system that is failing you in this regard. That said, any action there isn't going to bear (enouhg) fruit for at least a decade. The companies in question aren't going to sit on their hands waiting for the US to pull it's collective finger out of it's backside - they've got competition to beat and money to make. They need X innovative engineers that know what they're doing; the US isn't supplying them so if they can't bring them from elsewhere to the US, they're going to move the facilities to where they can.

 

 

Maybe we should get rid of student visas.

 

CUT EXPORTS! GENIUS SOLUTION!



#48 SV Airlie

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Posted 21 March 2017 - 12:07 AM

 

 

My point is that I don't think we should be saying "we can't", and focusing on H1Bs over developing our own kids. A healthy mix benefits everyone.  

 

I agree, you should improve the education system that is failing you in this regard. That said, any action there isn't going to bear (enouhg) fruit for at least a decade. The companies in question aren't going to sit on their hands waiting for the US to pull it's collective finger out of it's backside - they've got competition to beat and money to make. They need X innovative engineers that know what they're doing; the US isn't supplying them so if they can't bring them from elsewhere to the US, they're going to move the facilities to where they can.

 

 

Maybe we should get rid of student visas.

 

 

Maybe we should lower the standards to allow American students to attend college. (sarcasm but, about as stupid as your post Saorsa.)



#49 Bent Sailor

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Posted 21 March 2017 - 12:10 AM

 

 

My point is that I don't think we should be saying "we can't", and focusing on H1Bs over developing our own kids. A healthy mix benefits everyone.  

 

I agree, you should improve the education system that is failing you in this regard. That said, any action there isn't going to bear (enouhg) fruit for at least a decade. The companies in question aren't going to sit on their hands waiting for the US to pull it's collective finger out of it's backside - they've got competition to beat and money to make. They need X innovative engineers that know what they're doing; the US isn't supplying them so if they can't bring them from elsewhere to the US, they're going to move the facilities to where they can.

 

 

Maybe we should get rid of student visas.

 

If you wish. You'll still have the problem that yanks are not taking up the paths of education needed (in required numbers) and that, even if they started to, the lead time from now to when you can expect a reasonable increase in US engineers from your education institutions needs to be filled (the simplest & cheapest solution being to offshore the development & hire those engineers in other countries). 

 

So cut your education industry's exports and lose internal development infrastructure to other nations. Good plan Saorsa. Well done.



#50 Raz'r

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Posted 21 March 2017 - 01:40 AM

 

 

 

Nothing but crickets when the truth hits home and the lefts heros are exposed for who they really are.
 
Facebook
Microsoft
Google
Oracle
 
Basically any huge technology company or as 60 minutes shows even regular companies that have large IT needs all are doubling down to fuck over American workers.
120,000.00 cut magically in half and you wonder where the bribes come in.

 
You really are an ignorant asshole.
 
Plenty of the left, on this forum, have complained about the abuses for years. Including me shit for brains. Cutting the numbers just cuts the hiring pool for US company's and makes them decide to... leave the US. WINNING!
 
Google - a multi billion US company founded by 2 immigrants.
 
Just so you get where i'm coming from
 
I consider some Indian that gets extorted for loads of cash from some fuckstick middleman to basically purchase an HB1 through graft and corruption to be an illegal immigrant. The only way these purveyors of the american dream exist is because of cash from American companies willing to exploit these folks from India in the first place in order to cut costs.
 
Both the immigrant and the American worker lose. The bottom line.
The immigrant wins. Why else would they come here? It's still 4x the pay in their homeland.
 
 
Let's see which immigrants are you referring to? Mexicans come here to work because American kids are more interested in watching TV and whining the work offered is too hard. Or it's too hot. Mexicans find work. Even Trump's son is using this to hire workers for his vineyards. Of course, being a Trump he'll pay them minimum wage if that.
The H1B1 immigrants with degrees. No matter what they are better off here than at home. That's is the reason they come. American workers get screwed.

Show me a decent American comp sci/EE engineer out of work. If thy are willing to get off their ass and move to where the jobs are, they will have a job.

#51 Raz'r

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Posted 21 March 2017 - 01:48 AM

Flash said "because we just don't have enough straight A kids going into engineering.". 
 
I don't know that that's entirely accurate. We've got plenty of 'em - and education has, in the past 10 years at least, been increasingly focused on STEM.  I know that in my second son's HS class, that about 40% of the kids going on to college were going into some kind of engineering discipline.   I don't know if this is something that's observable mostly in the mid-atlantic region or not.  
 
There are indeed advantages to the un-sullied perspectives of someone with bright eyes and a different outlook, but, I don't think that means we couldn't meet the needs with our own students, either.  There's lots of bright, motivated kids who would do well if the collective "we" simply better helped them understand what opportunities exist, and what they needed to do to be positioned to take advantage of those opportunities.   THIS is one of the big failures of our educational system.  
 
My point is that I don't think we should be saying "we can't", and focusing on H1Bs over developing our own kids. A healthy mix benefits everyone.  

 
 
there literally aren't enough graduates. Period.
 
Trust me, I'd much rather hire a US citizen than a kid with a student visa.
 
Why don't US kids take engineering? Too hard? Lifestyle sucks (damn competitive, damn long hours). Pay is higher for Marketing, Advertising, Sales, Finance
 
Pick your poison.
If you can't find a fresh engineering grad you aren't paying enough. One good way is internship.
We're going to double our engineering ranks and have plans to hire about 250 this year. We pay fine. No, I'm not the hiring manager, I'm not smart enough.

I would guess a decent % of the grad school grads will be here on student visas. An example, in my entry class last year (we mix all hires together for orientation) we had a young lady with double masters in Econ and Stats for a data science job. Those folks aren't easy to find.

#52 Bent Sailor

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Posted 21 March 2017 - 06:52 AM

It's not even a matter of cost - we're being paid to move over there and settle so they have us long-term. I'm settled in with kids on the coast, so it doesn't tempt me. However, if I was single or even married without kids, I'd do a stint in your country for what they're paying.

#53 Uncooperative Tom

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Posted 21 March 2017 - 10:22 AM

This has nothing to do with Trump. H1B visas skyrocketed under BHO. I would think this is one thing that most would like Trump to fix. but maybe not...

 

The problem people point to is American workers losing their jobs to H1B visa holders.
 
But the job stays here. As miscut points out, that's not a birthright.
 
 

1 - problems with a broad base of quality science and math education across the US.
2 - women find job satisfaction in science and engineering lacking
3 - to support the increased wages you'd need increased productivity from the workers. 
4 - just simple population to draw from in rough numbers 3 billion people i.e China + India + Europe vs. 300 million people (US alone)
 
I'm aware of the abuses of the system. I'm also acutely aware that this industry isn't our birthright. It can, and will, leave for a place with a better business environment which includes access to quality workers.

 

Do women from other cultures take more interest in "hard" science? Guns.



#54 Saorsa

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Posted 21 March 2017 - 10:44 AM

 

 

 

My point is that I don't think we should be saying "we can't", and focusing on H1Bs over developing our own kids. A healthy mix benefits everyone.  

 

I agree, you should improve the education system that is failing you in this regard. That said, any action there isn't going to bear (enouhg) fruit for at least a decade. The companies in question aren't going to sit on their hands waiting for the US to pull it's collective finger out of it's backside - they've got competition to beat and money to make. They need X innovative engineers that know what they're doing; the US isn't supplying them so if they can't bring them from elsewhere to the US, they're going to move the facilities to where they can.

 

 

Maybe we should get rid of student visas.

 

If you wish. You'll still have the problem that yanks are not taking up the paths of education needed (in required numbers) and that, even if they started to, the lead time from now to when you can expect a reasonable increase in US engineers from your education institutions needs to be filled (the simplest & cheapest solution being to offshore the development & hire those engineers in other countries). 

 

So cut your education industry's exports and lose internal development infrastructure to other nations. Good plan Saorsa. Well done.

 

 

It's not much of an export when the visa is overstayed.  You seem to think that education isn't a cost born by the dumbfuck taxpayers.  Our education system isn't failing at the higher levels, we have the best there.  It's the feeder system that sucks.



#55 Turd Sandwich

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Posted 21 March 2017 - 01:02 PM

 

 

 

I consider some Indian that gets extorted for loads of cash from some fuckstick middleman to basically purchase an HB1 through graft and corruption to be an illegal immigrant. The only way these purveyors of the american dream exist is because of cash from American companies willing to exploit these folks from India in the first place in order to cut costs.

 

I've worked with dozens of H1-B immigrants. None meet your description. Many of them go on to earn a green card and citizenship.  We gain an educated hard worker, some of whom found their own company's and make the US richer.

 

Yes, H1-Bs have driven down wages; how much you'd have to increase wages to graduate the science and engineering students necessary to fill the demand is a different matter. I doubt we could do it from the domestic talent pool alone. 

 

 

Why do you think that? 

 

 

because we just don't have enough straight A kids going into engineering.

 

With this system we get the best US kids AND the best Indian, Chinese, German, French, etc, etc, etc kids.

 

Why WOULDN"T you want this intellectual capital in the US - driving US industry forward?

 

To borrow & butcher a demographics phrase "India has more kids in the top 10% than the US has kids"

Substitute China in there as well. (China has more english speakers than the US has people is another good one)

 

What aboutwholesale displacing those already employed just to cut costs not really the same



#56 Turd Sandwich

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Posted 21 March 2017 - 01:19 PM

Look I get the whole get the brightest the world has to offer when we get a chance but the abuse is real. You take some credit card company for example. They fill the tech ranks with the H1B immigrants then outsource the customer service to another country. I also get the need to competitive and the need to keep costs under control to maintain that but somewhere along the line we have lost the ability to keep our workforce employed.

 

Everyone defaults to manufacturing and throws automation out there as the great boogie man. Well that is only one small sector so thats pretty much bullshit when looking at the overall jobs market.

 

Immigration needs more oversight and somehow we need to reel in the corporate environment so we can still get a shot at the brightest the world has to offer and not fuck over the average Joe while we are at it.

 

The shit is out of hand all in the name of the corporate bottom line and this just brigs us back to " How in the fuck do we get the money out of politics" because at the end of the day it is the real problem and the reason big business gets away with this shit in the first place



#57 Hrothgar

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Posted 21 March 2017 - 01:21 PM

The part that bothered me most was that a pubic constitution could use the H1B to displace American citizen workers.  I think it was the UCSF Medical Center which is a public institution.

 

what's next?  The Federal government using the H1B in Federal agencies?

 

Hroth



#58 Mrleft8

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Posted 21 March 2017 - 01:38 PM

Trump hires H-2B "Guest workers" at his resorts every year. Something like 30 waiters, and waitresses at Mar-A-key Largo alone.



#59 Bent Sailor

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Posted 21 March 2017 - 01:44 PM

It's not much of an export when the visa is overstayed.

 
True. Now all you need to do is show that the students are actually a significant percentage of people overstaying their visas. Don't worry, we'll wait whilst you scrabble about for a deflection.
 

You seem to think that education isn't a cost born by the dumbfuck taxpayers.  Our education system isn't failing at the higher levels, we have the best there.  It's the feeder system that sucks.

 
Really? Where did I say anything about who pays the education costs in your system. As overseas students are not eligible for the assistance US students get, I didn't see it as being relevant.



#60 Gun Club Jeff

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Posted 21 March 2017 - 02:01 PM

It's off topic but what's killing American jobs isn't globalism or visas.. it's automation

 

Need 1000 acres plowed?  I got a machine for that.  Computers and cell phones?  Pretty much machine except for the final clip clip.  Buying pizza?  Yup.. app is ready.  Nike is rolling out a shoe that orders with a click of a button from the nearest Pizza Hut.  Fridge that orders milk if you're low?  Dial it up.   Factories without workers?  Yea.. we got those.

 

Here's some ugly truths - Computer AIs are way better at medicine than actual doctors.  They don't have bias or believe everyone is a special flower.  They follow symptoms, analytics, and bell curves.  Surgery is being done by machine.  Supertankers? AI + GPS has that covered.  Same with Airplanes.  Air traffic controllers?  There experimenting with AI driven landing that can increase the density of planes by 300% without any increase in infrastructure.  Know what will drive vehicle automation?  Computer trucking and traffic jams.  AIs can fit 2-3x as many cars on each freeway WHILE getting rid of traffic jams.  You don't NEED new freeways - you need cars that talk to each other.

 

We don't need nearly as many people doing stuff.  We just don't.  What we've got to do is figure out what to do with them and with all the old people who aren't going to die.

 

Sadly, this is the 10K lb elephant in the room.



#61 Gun Club Jeff

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Posted 21 March 2017 - 02:07 PM

A good article on the H1B debate as to whether US tech firms are hiring immigrants over US workers.

 

http://www.npr.org/2...-over-americans

 

But nationally, some of the biggest beneficiaries are not high-tech firms - they're outsourcing companies. They essentially hire entry-level IT workers and import them from India to do the jobs Americans are already doing but purportedly for a cheaper price.

 



#62 Turd Sandwich

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Posted 21 March 2017 - 02:12 PM

 

A good article on the H1B debate as to whether US tech firms are hiring immigrants over US workers.

 

http://www.npr.org/2...-over-americans

 

But nationally, some of the biggest beneficiaries are not high-tech firms - they're outsourcing companies. They essentially hire entry-level IT workers and import them from India to do the jobs Americans are already doing but purportedly for a cheaper price.

 

 

Like anything else that happens. Follow the money. At the end of the day guess where a pile of it ends up. Them H1B's aint cheap. Basic supply and demand but the government is the supply. Ruh Row



#63 Билли backstay

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Posted 21 March 2017 - 02:19 PM

Trump hires H-2B "Guest workers" at his resorts every year. Something like 30 waiters, and waitresses at Mar-A-key Largo alone.


Do as I say, not as I do.....

#64 Bent Sailor

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Posted 21 March 2017 - 10:42 PM

 

It's off topic but what's killing American jobs isn't globalism or visas.. it's automation

 

Need 1000 acres plowed?  I got a machine for that.  Computers and cell phones?  Pretty much machine except for the final clip clip.  Buying pizza?  Yup.. app is ready.  Nike is rolling out a shoe that orders with a click of a button from the nearest Pizza Hut.  Fridge that orders milk if you're low?  Dial it up.   Factories without workers?  Yea.. we got those.

 

Here's some ugly truths - Computer AIs are way better at medicine than actual doctors.  They don't have bias or believe everyone is a special flower.  They follow symptoms, analytics, and bell curves.  Surgery is being done by machine.  Supertankers? AI + GPS has that covered.  Same with Airplanes.  Air traffic controllers?  There experimenting with AI driven landing that can increase the density of planes by 300% without any increase in infrastructure.  Know what will drive vehicle automation?  Computer trucking and traffic jams.  AIs can fit 2-3x as many cars on each freeway WHILE getting rid of traffic jams.  You don't NEED new freeways - you need cars that talk to each other.

 

We don't need nearly as many people doing stuff.  We just don't.  What we've got to do is figure out what to do with them and with all the old people who aren't going to die.

 

Sadly, this is the 10K lb elephant in the room.

 

It's also the elephant no politician is going to speak about because there isn't a solution that works along the lines political parties have drawn. Right-wingers can't say jobs will come from trickle down investment because there are no need for humans to do those jobs. Left-wingers cannot say that jobs come from raising minimum wage, working conditions, etc because there simply aren't the jobs there to spread around.

 

The world is running on Capitalism which works relatively well (when it's extremes are regulated)... but it only works so long as the labour component of the equation needs to be met by other people. As soon as the capital & labour elements are on the same side of the equation  - profit need not be shared with workers, there is less money being spent in the economy, and the system breaks down.



#65 Saorsa

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Posted 21 March 2017 - 11:14 PM

 

 

It's off topic but what's killing American jobs isn't globalism or visas.. it's automation

 

Need 1000 acres plowed?  I got a machine for that.  Computers and cell phones?  Pretty much machine except for the final clip clip.  Buying pizza?  Yup.. app is ready.  Nike is rolling out a shoe that orders with a click of a button from the nearest Pizza Hut.  Fridge that orders milk if you're low?  Dial it up.   Factories without workers?  Yea.. we got those.

 

Here's some ugly truths - Computer AIs are way better at medicine than actual doctors.  They don't have bias or believe everyone is a special flower.  They follow symptoms, analytics, and bell curves.  Surgery is being done by machine.  Supertankers? AI + GPS has that covered.  Same with Airplanes.  Air traffic controllers?  There experimenting with AI driven landing that can increase the density of planes by 300% without any increase in infrastructure.  Know what will drive vehicle automation?  Computer trucking and traffic jams.  AIs can fit 2-3x as many cars on each freeway WHILE getting rid of traffic jams.  You don't NEED new freeways - you need cars that talk to each other.

 

We don't need nearly as many people doing stuff.  We just don't.  What we've got to do is figure out what to do with them and with all the old people who aren't going to die.

 

Sadly, this is the 10K lb elephant in the room.

 

It's also the elephant no politician is going to speak about because there isn't a solution that works along the lines political parties have drawn. Right-wingers can't say jobs will come from trickle down investment because there are no need for humans to do those jobs. Left-wingers cannot say that jobs come from raising minimum wage, working conditions, etc because there simply aren't the jobs there to spread around.

 

The world is running on Capitalism which works relatively well (when it's extremes are regulated)... but it only works so long as the labour component of the equation needs to be met by other people. As soon as the capital & labour elements are on the same side of the equation  - profit need not be shared with workers, there is less money being spent in the economy, and the system breaks down.

 

 

why other people?

 

My wife worked in an office that shared space with a German equipment maker who sold internationally.  He liked Annapolis so had his office there although his market was global.  He commented that everybody in Europe and the US seemed to think that it was cheap labor that made China.  His view was that every time he went to a conference the chinese manufacturers were only interested in the most advanced machinery.  They weren't trying to create jobs, they were trying to create wealth.  They didn't mind billionaires so long as enough went to the government and bureacracy that the peasants could be placated.  Not given lots of free stuff, just kept reasonably content.



#66 Bent Sailor

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Posted 21 March 2017 - 11:42 PM

why other people?

 

Because that's how a capitalist economy works or, as most people know it, "Economics 101". Economies don't work when there is no flow of value through the system. No workers being paid, means no customers, mean no-one buying the goods & services you create.

 

On the other hand, if you're advocating a socialist style government in which everyone is afforded a basic living income they can use to purchase those goods & services - I'd be interested to hear your ideas. I doubt you're doing much more than flaunting your ignorance trolling for a response, but hey, if you have a solution - we're all ears.



#67 Raz'r

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Posted 22 March 2017 - 12:45 AM

 

why other people?

 

Because that's how a capitalist economy works or, as most people know it, "Economics 101". Economies don't work when there is no flow of value through the system. No workers being paid, means no customers, mean no-one buying the goods & services you create.

 

On the other hand, if you're advocating a socialist style government in which everyone is afforded a basic living income they can use to purchase those goods & services - I'd be interested to hear your ideas. I doubt you're doing much more than flaunting your ignorance trolling for a response, but hey, if you have a solution - we're all ears.

 

 

 

He's the definition of living the socialist dream. He's living on SS paid for on the backs of immigrant labor. And yet, he hates the folks that pay him his monthly stipend.






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