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#301 SASSAFRASS

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Posted 15 February 2017 - 04:41 AM

Thanks,

Slowly coming together

#302 hobot

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Posted 15 February 2017 - 09:10 AM

Good stuff!

Thanks for posting the updates.

#303 Py26129

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Posted 15 February 2017 - 02:50 PM

Some shots of the finished bits down below

image_zpsknsaftga.jpeg
 

 

That looks very sweet!



#304 SASSAFRASS

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Posted 16 February 2017 - 02:20 AM

Fairing pieces made

image_zpssmueodif.jpeg

Rudder milled for stock

image_zpszh5ivi92.jpeg


The sanding and fitting part does pretty much suck, fairing pieces fitted still need to work on the rudder tommorro then milling for the G10 tubes the bolts will go in.

image_zpsbd7v87ms.jpeg

image_zpsjmsdptlb.jpeg

Coupling should get poured Friday and hopefully a glue up early next week then on to shaping

#305 SASSAFRASS

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Posted 16 February 2017 - 02:23 AM

If only I could find my adjustable reemer.... I pulled it out of a tote in storage and am pretty sure it's somewhere just not sure where. Need to reem the G10 for the bolts and it is not so friendly to work with.....

#306 Ishmael

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Posted 16 February 2017 - 02:44 AM

Fairing pieces made



Rudder milled for stock




The sanding and fitting part does pretty much suck, fairing pieces fitted still need to work on the rudder tommorro then milling for the G10 tubes the bolts will go in.

image_zpsbd7v87ms.jpeg

image_zpsjmsdptlb.jpeg

Coupling should get poured Friday and hopefully a glue up early next week then on to shaping

 

Just curious...how is the shaft coupled to the rudder blade?



#307 SASSAFRASS

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Posted 16 February 2017 - 03:03 AM

If you look back at the pick of the template you can see 6 lines perpendicular to the stock. The stock is 2.5" nickel bronze, it is drilled and tapped for 6 3/4" nickel bronze bolts that run for the stock centerline to the start of the taper. The bolts are in compression on a G10 tube. The rudder will be milled to fit the G10 tubes and bolts. The coupling is solid with a split upper portion about the same OD as the rudder, the lower portion will be permanat on the stock and part of the glue up. The Stock rudder halves bolts fairing pieces etc will all be bagged in one glue up. Then the whole thing will be shaped and the transition areas filled with thickened epoxy after, the final layup will be infused.

#308 SASSAFRASS

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Posted 17 February 2017 - 03:07 AM

Little duct tape shimming on the sanding pipe and the stock and fairing pieces final fit.

image_zpsnpcahq8k.jpeg

Rudder stock 1
Tap..0


image_zpsuuw3sfor.jpeg

Good save on getting the broke tap out no damage to the stock.

All the bolts fitted and polished to fit the G10, which proved much easier than trying to reem the tubes.

image_zpsrmgeks4v.jpeg


Starting layout and fitting of G10. It has the unique quality of sounding like dying cats when sanded and destroying tool at a fast rate, lessons learned

image_zpsrp2yris5.jpeg

Tubes all fit, and location layed out for milling in the mourning, will flush and center pien the protruding bolts al well.

image_zpsz7zymbzr.jpeg

#309 Ishmael

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Posted 17 February 2017 - 03:42 AM

Nice.



#310 Py26129

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Posted 17 February 2017 - 02:50 PM

Rudder stock 1
Tap..0


image_zpsuuw3sfor.jpeg
 

When I first saw this, I thought I was looking at your rudder shaft.  Glad to realize it's only a tap.



#311 Blitz

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Posted 17 February 2017 - 03:21 PM

I thought the same thing. Broken taps are a PITA.

#312 SASSAFRASS

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Posted 18 February 2017 - 02:40 AM

Pretty good day,

Have to say Pete and Cathy have been awesome letting me have some out of the weather space at the foundry to work

Not a bad spot lots of good wood boat juju

image_zpsvqmo9zpv.jpeg


One side milled and so far so good

image_zpslr5uvygd.jpeg


image_zpsg0m6qwhn.jpeg

Transferring to the pattern for the other half, I would like to say I planned it this way but it was dumb luck the pattern is the same as the center ply which made the milling the same on either side just more time on setup for the first one

image_zpsf6ypt3b3.jpeg



Bolts flushed and piened

image_zpshcaveoml.jpeg

#313 SASSAFRASS

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Posted 18 February 2017 - 03:14 AM

And it fit
image_zpsp1hq0uja.jpeg


image_zpskvvaw2lr.jpeg

#314 Py26129

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Posted 18 February 2017 - 03:32 AM

Sass, . Thank you very much for sharing the refit here. It's very interesting to follow.

#315 SASSAFRASS

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Posted 18 February 2017 - 04:11 PM

It's unlikely but possible someone could find something useful so I'll keep it coming.

Had the first big "Oh shit". As this was a evolutionary process with lots of unknowns I missed a big conflict in our rudder tiller arm. It was shipped from Jeffa and at the time the rudder construction was not certain. So the bulb when off yesterday when showing Pete that it is indeed aluminum and the stock bronze.... So I guess I have a emergency spare since I had it shipped bored and it's mine now. I made a similar mistake when we repowered and I gave the wrong shaft size for the coupling and got to buy two, so at least I'm consistent. Will go over the layup process today and make final adjustments to the rudder shape for this than maybe gluing next week.

#316 Bob Perry

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Posted 18 February 2017 - 04:38 PM

I think just one "oh shit" is pretty good.



#317 Kris Cringle

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Posted 18 February 2017 - 04:48 PM

I've just skimmed this thread after seeing your latest work. Nice! Your build looks very strong. Quite a process, I'll go through it. 

 

I had to repair my rudder almost 10 years ago. Original John Alden design from 1961. It was stout but nothing last forever. Having rebuilt it, I think it could have been stronger as designed. The weak points were the bolts, and screws, at the connection to the bronze rudder stock. The upper rod threaded into the stock and tightened into the wood takes the bulk of the load). 

 

I couldn't tell I had problems via the steering. It was only on the hard that I noticed play between the rudder and the stock. One by one, the bolts/rods/large screws, were failing at the stock connection. Starts slowly,...then fails quickly. 

 

The bolts/ rods were a bear to remove. I had to jury rig a drill press on a 1/2" drill to bore the largest one out of the mahogany rudder. 

 

32931521376_55166f4ba8_b.jpg

 

To (I hope) improve the design, I went one size up on all the parts(3/8 to 1/2"). That was easy as the bronze rudder stock was oversized and had plenty of size to rebore the holes. 

 

32818090352_f2a677efec_b.jpg

 

This shot before installation shows the bronze trailing edge. The rudder tapers from 2" at the stock to about 3/8" at the edge. 

 

32128596584_5fd3c7dd4a_b.jpg

 

It was nice that the mahogany was fine after all those years, and I could re-use all of it. 

 

32847653131_0a7bffc4a9_b.jpg

 

I now check the play on the hard. So far, so good. 



#318 SASSAFRASS

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Posted 18 February 2017 - 05:35 PM

That is a big job Kris, pretty nice casting for the stock, the construction method is sort of old and new some good aspects of both I think. Mechanical fastening vs welding is not a bad thing for things underwater. The G10 tubes from my understanding are what some around here have used to address the issue you saw in the fastenings on a completely traditional rudder. The tube is in compression to the stock and the solid wood is glued to the tube. On ours the only difference for it to be traditional solid wood would be the pockets for the nuts would go all the way thru and the elimination of the fairing piece on the front of the stock or making it mechanically fastened. This way in theory the whole rudder would be able to be removed from the stock re beaded etc. We are making it hopefully a little longer lasting l with shipwright in a bottle and micro balloons. We'll see how it goes. I think you are limited on the min trailing edge dimm with solid wood as well.

#319 Anomaly2

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Posted 18 February 2017 - 08:26 PM

In a now ancient (archived) thread, I documented a somewhat different approach to building a DIY rudder:

 

http://forums.sailin...28469&hl=rudder

 

Post #24 in that thread shows how I used stainless steel drift pins to keep the rudder from slipping on the rudder post. A set of photos are here:

 

http://i868.photobuc...udderBuild9.jpg

 

But the current thread/project has me curious. What is the purpose of the G10 tubes? 

 

Enjoying this thead. Thx.



#320 SASSAFRASS

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Posted 18 February 2017 - 10:07 PM

This is theory as I'm no expert...

The weak link is the metal to whatever bond, one of the reason water intrusion into the top of a stock is common. The G10 tube is to combine good gluing and mechanical integrity. Without the tube the bolts would be relying on the epoxy metal bond alone for all stress and movement.

With the tube the bolts are compressing a already strong material with the nut to the stock before assembly, the G10 is not relying on glue but mechanical integrity in its connection to the bolts and through them the stock. The G10 has great gluing characteristics and becomes one with the rudder blade in the layup. So connecting the dots seems to make a stronger product, in theory.....

#321 SASSAFRASS

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Posted 19 February 2017 - 02:20 AM

Finished putting in the bronze pins for the fairing pieces and the final cuttouts before gluing the halves

image_zpsticack1i.jpeg

Saw this on a Verner Herzog documentary of the Taiga in Siberia, so really old school. When they make traditional dugout boats they drive colored plugs in from the bottom for reference when carving the inside. Seemed like a good idea so I put teak plugs on the inside of the center fairing piece where the most shaping will occur to hopefully eliminate too many oops..

image_zpsz0zklqid.jpeg

#322 Pendragon35

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Posted 19 February 2017 - 10:46 PM

Thank you so much for documenting this. I have an Alberg 35 that clearly is going to need a new rudder within the next year or two. I"m already contemplating whether to go DIY or have it built. What a great job you're doing on both building the rudder and documenting the process.



#323 SASSAFRASS

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Posted 20 February 2017 - 04:20 PM

Pendragon, it defiantly makes sense to crunch the numbers. This is probably a 50/50 job give or take, we can't afford to have someone do it all so trying to do a lot of the work ourselves, that said there are vender costs, Design, machining and composites. On ours raw materials alone are pretty steep. For a DIY I would say the largest factor is time and work space. If neither are a issue it would make a lot of sense. Having a garage or shop and the boat out of the water not being a significant expense. We have done enough big re-fits on the boat already both ourselves and full vendor I would think this approach is probably about half the cost of hands free depending on the skills of those involved.

#324 SASSAFRASS

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Posted 21 February 2017 - 12:15 AM

Trying to knock the thru hulls out while the rest of the rudder parts are getting made

Moving the exhaust so it's not buried and adding a valve

image_zps7xw5thfi.jpeg

Someone was looking out for me today, took Sunday off as the body was hurting and had a hard start today, just scratched thru the paint when the radar went off for a very near miss....

image_zpsfru1u8xr.jpeg

#325 Panope

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Posted 21 February 2017 - 04:11 PM

Hey Sass, I'm trolling around the boatyard this morning. Care to meet up?

Boat looks great.

Steve

#326 SASSAFRASS

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Posted 21 February 2017 - 11:02 PM

Thanks Steve,

good to meet you

#327 SASSAFRASS

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Posted 25 February 2017 - 02:33 AM

So today was a good day..

Got paint in the pit of despair otherwise known as the lazz

image_zpsmtzg4ilc.jpeg

Wife is in full pro painter mode on the hull stern is primed, seem compound has always been a nightmare affair, got some good advise to do a final coat with Jap drier and penatrol and it was pretty successful.

image_zpsifh6t3ue.jpeg

The bronze bits are coming together tiller arm is ready for machining


image_zps1z3deisl.jpeg

Rudder coupling

image_zpsrg4ueqdg.jpeg

#328 SASSAFRASS

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Posted 25 February 2017 - 02:38 AM

And the fun stuff putting the rudder together

Lower stock with coupling fitted, boring pins

image_zps02xdgqtr.jpeg


Upper stock, it's keyed and the clamping bolts are scalloped into the stock

image_zpsgggncke0.jpeg


Dry run after trimming the wood it still all fits

image_zpsejxydhhb.jpeg


All stock pieces

image_zps3mpzabtj.jpeg

#329 SASSAFRASS

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Posted 25 February 2017 - 02:49 AM

Glue up

image_zpskhd2ijev.jpeg

image_zps1wiprgul.jpeg

And bagged for the night

image_zpsiqowbbr5.jpeg

Added heat blankets after.

On the way home I got a call that all the Jefa stuff had come in a couple weeks ahead of schedule so off to pick it up Monday and we will have all the steering pieces so a pretty good day.

#330 TheDragon

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Posted 25 February 2017 - 04:58 AM

Very cool, thanks!

#331 Ishmael

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Posted 25 February 2017 - 05:10 AM

Glue-up is always a nail-biter. Looking good.



#332 SASSAFRASS

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Posted 25 February 2017 - 04:42 PM

Ish, defiantly glad I went with a professional on the gluing and didn't try it myself 100 little details that make a big difference, learning a lot too.

Picking up the rudder today to do a fitup to the boat and start shaping

#333 ProaSailor

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Posted 25 February 2017 - 05:58 PM

Ish, defiantly glad I went with a professional on the gluing and didn't try it myself 100 little details that make a big difference, learning a lot too.

Picking up the rudder today to do a fitup to the boat and start shaping

 
Shaping the leading edge for prop clearance, down to the shaft, looks very well planned.  Photoshop enhanced below.  Is that part done by hand?  Are you using CNC otherwise to get a foil shape first?
 
image_zpszu9al54y_2017Feb25a.jpg

 

 

Final rudder template

image_zpswahmwxno.jpeg

Checking prop clearances, apeture did not pass muster so I'm going to be doing some more fairing and shaping

image_zpszu9al54y.jpeg

 
Taking a bite out of the rudder's leading edge, eh?  Makes fairing that area a challenge.


#334 SASSAFRASS

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Posted 26 February 2017 - 03:05 AM

Proa, it will be by hand. I'm cutting the shape off the template with a router then will layout for removal in a grid or something like that. There isn't a specific foil for the taper, I have some foils printed out and will probably aim do something in the middle of foil and gradual taper.

Hope to have it shaped tommorro, built a fort under the stern to work in have it blocked to slide into position, have one side prepped will do the other tommorro and start shaping.

#335 ProaSailor

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Posted 26 February 2017 - 07:37 AM

Well...  obviously...(?), if chord length determines thickness, then it would get thinner in that area.   So instead, I'm guessing the shaping will be limited to that part of the rudder forward of the maximum thickness point?  ~30% of chord length for a typical NACA  0012 foil?



#336 SASSAFRASS

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Posted 27 February 2017 - 01:58 AM

The poor mans CNC

image_zpsdwstx9u7.jpeg


Halfway there

image_zpsvrqlzymn.jpeg


image_zpsgqgwnl9k.jpeg

#337 SASSAFRASS

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Posted 27 February 2017 - 02:15 AM

Steve was asking about size before and after

image_zpsoguz5ul9.jpeg

By a basic pain factor the new one is a fair bit lighter might do a run to the dump and Laos unload the old for scrap and new to get a final weight.

And who said building forts as a kid wouldn't pay off some day

image_zpsxwix7pru.jpeg

#338 SASSAFRASS

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Posted 27 February 2017 - 10:33 PM

More shaping by numbers

image_zpsvtozzzmo.jpeg

And there it is

image_zpshwpr48z7.jpeg


image_zps2auo9gdv.jpeg

image_zpsqz0xk65b.jpeg

image_zpsgvf1jhjl.jpeg

Need to finalize the bearing fits and fill the metal to wood areas with G Flex then will do the infused layup. The area behind the coupling will get filled with 4200 after the layup then the coupling will get hand layed over for fairing will also add a G10 plate on the bottom to help keep flow from dumping off per Tad as he would have liked a little more volume.

#339 Bob Perry

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Posted 27 February 2017 - 11:29 PM

Looking very good Sassy.



#340 Kris Cringle

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Posted 28 February 2017 - 05:58 PM

Wow, that is quite a project. I'm impressed with how strong your design/build looks. 



#341 SASSAFRASS

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Posted 01 March 2017 - 04:57 AM

Anything to do with the deadwood seems to take about twice as long as I thought

Milling for the gudgon bearing

image_zpsdlpeiufc.jpeg



Gudgon template and lower bearing template done

image_zpsj6za6ftb.jpeg

It's within 2mm of true to the deadwood as neutral rudder. Kept swapping a mm on either side and gave up.

#342 SASSAFRASS

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Posted 04 March 2017 - 02:37 AM

G flex fills done, it took two shots got voids on the gudgon a the first round, for anyone who hasn't worked with it I would not recommend using it unless you have good temps, it is a bit of a pain to work with in cooler temps. Came out ok though second round was in a heated shop with heat blankets, lots of time getting the tape off should have just used bare Baltic play for the molds would have saved a lot of time cleaning things up.

image_zpsg0emjcxb.jpeg

Dry stacking for infusion, so glad I did not try this on my own. No two ways about it this is a art form and hard to do. I had to bail at layer 4 of 6. Infusion tommorro after 12hrs under vacuum.


image_zpsrctmrtao.jpeg
image_zpsl7ugrjma.jpeg

#343 hobot

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Posted 04 March 2017 - 03:19 AM

Looks great!

#344 kimbottles

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Posted 05 March 2017 - 12:59 AM

Love the fancy bicycle wheels hanging up in the shop. Are they yours?

#345 SASSAFRASS

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Posted 05 March 2017 - 01:45 AM

Not mine Kim,

Templating the helm, it actually all fits few tweeks but the grand vision is coming together, got rid of the torque tube for the steering and was able to go with the single universal joint from the helm to gearbox, might get in trouble with Jefa but it was what I was after. Will have a slight rise at the helm for better visibility and make the sole removable for access. Otherwise things are lining up. Cockpit was out of centerline with the boat so I cheated the helm over a few mm to get the right geometry for the gearbox with the single univ joint. All seems to blend in.

image_zpsmen6rgkx.jpeg

image_zps7zvz3aed.jpeg


image_zpsmjfwjv7t.jpeg

image_zpsph4drowf.jpeg

image_zpsbgqvq1xn.jpeg

#346 SASSAFRASS

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Posted 05 March 2017 - 07:27 AM

Infusing

image_zpsf6xsfud4.jpeg

And infused, have to put on the bottom plate tommorro them fairing and paint hopefully in this week

image_zpsfky46lw7.jpeg

#347 Russell Brown

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Posted 05 March 2017 - 03:56 PM

That kinda looks like a PT 11 nesting dinghy in the background in the photo with the bike wheels. Whose shop are you in? Who in the infusion whiz?



#348 SASSAFRASS

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Posted 05 March 2017 - 04:49 PM

Hi Russell,

That would be your protege's shop, Mr Miles. He has been great showing me a lot, definitely a learning process for me.

#349 SASSAFRASS

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Posted 07 March 2017 - 01:45 AM

Moving into the less photos and more work needing to get done phase. Got the bottom plate glued on the rudder and the coupling void filled with 4200, have to tape both tommorro then can start filling and fairing maybe start paint on it by Friday. Making the gearbox foundation out of the destroyer of tools some Purple Heart.

image_zpsueztqhsu.jpeg

#350 squiby

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Posted 07 March 2017 - 02:05 AM

image_zpsg0emjcxb.jpeg

Too bad there's no such thing as clear antifouling paint. This looks too pretty to cover up! 

 

I think you're gonna enjoy the speed boost.



#351 Russell Brown

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Posted 07 March 2017 - 03:13 AM

Hi Russell,

That would be your protege's shop, Mr Miles. He has been great showing me a lot, definitely a learning process for me.

 

 

Pretty cool that you found Simon to help with the liquid part of the project. He has a good track record with this kind of thing.

As far as being a protege, he stopped learning anything from me a long time ago. Now it's the other way around.



#352 Ishmael

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Posted 07 March 2017 - 04:52 AM

 

Hi Russell,

That would be your protege's shop, Mr Miles. He has been great showing me a lot, definitely a learning process for me.

 

 

Pretty cool that you found Simon to help with the liquid part of the project. He has a good track record with this kind of thing.

As far as being a protege, he stopped learning anything from me a long time ago. Now it's the other way around.

 

 

Isn't it nice when that happens? After the first burst of indignation, anyhow...



#353 Balder

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Posted 07 March 2017 - 02:11 PM

I've really enjoyed the show here, sass. Great planning, that was part of my enjoyment. Awesome workmanship, even better.

I feel like I am watching a reality show and getting psyched up for the finale. Only in this case we know who is going to win, we just have to see HOW much you win.

In this case the prize will be measured in fractions of a knot and better handling. But hey, that's as great a prize for a sailor as the big bucks.

#354 Balder

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Posted 07 March 2017 - 02:13 PM

The bit of conflict with proa trying to get you to do a balanced spade rudder was just like the conflicts on a reality show too and was really interesting to listen too and watch play out. I am sure some of the audience was rooting for proa to win you over.

#355 Bob Perry

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Posted 07 March 2017 - 02:59 PM

That would make a really nice coffee table. Well done.



#356 SASSAFRASS

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Posted 08 March 2017 - 04:03 AM

The winglet or rudderlet glued on

image_zps4ayse9bi.jpeg

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Void aft of coupling filled with rubber goo

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Taped the plate and will tape the coupling after it has fully cured tommorro. Pretty cool learning how to do things with out making a huge mess. Lots to learn on composites

#357 SASSAFRASS

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Posted 13 March 2017 - 04:30 PM

So for anyone interested where the bronze bits come from....

First I cobble together plywood bits for a reference, then the foundry builds a pattern for the part.

image_zpscr4xevec.jpeg


If the part has a internal structure a secound pattern is made to create a female mold box

image_zpsuyzjcbh2.jpeg

The main pattern is two pieces split down the middle and is placed in a form with a mixture of volcanic sand and beninite clay the compacted. The form is split to open with one half imprinted on either side, because the pattern must be removed all shapes must have a min taper or draft to allow it to come out without disturbing the sand. A part must also be designed with mass in mind as the metal has to flow to all parts.

The internal negative space is made of a chemically bonded sand tamped into to female mold. This piece is then places in the larger mold and it is closed and clamped. Various riser vent holes and a pour hole are also incorporated. On a bigger part ceramic feeder tubes are added as well.

image_zpsfxqsaalf.jpeg

This is a silicon bronze part the metal is heated in a silicon carbide crucible placed in a forced air propane furnace to 1900 deg F

image_zpske7fqnyk.jpeg


Once up to temp the crucible is removed and all slag and impurities are removed

image_zpsneai2k0x.jpeg


Then the metal is poured in the mold, after the pour a torch is used on the riser tubes to maintain heat, this metal reserve continues to feed the mold till full.

After cooling down the mold is broke down and the part removed

#358 SASSAFRASS

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Posted 13 March 2017 - 04:37 PM

image_zpsyx6fsuhn.jpeg


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After a rough cleanup it's off to machining and on to the boat

#359 SASSAFRASS

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Posted 13 March 2017 - 04:46 PM

Some fancy Lincoln logs.

image_zpsimvpcaib.jpeg

All glued up and painted drive foundation is good to go

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image_zpsbtclviml.jpeg

image_zpsy3uau6cs.jpeg

#360 SASSAFRASS

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Posted 13 March 2017 - 04:54 PM

And back to the bit on the stern.

One side faired on to the other

image_zpseho0qf35.jpeg

Pretty sure long boarding was invented during the Spanish Inquisition as a back up in case the iron maiden was in the shop for service.

All faired final coat of epoxy, a wash sand and barrier coat and bottom paint

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#361 ProaSailor

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Posted 13 March 2017 - 05:23 PM

All very interesting, nice work.  A far cry from composite construction methods!
 
Looks like it wouldn't have been too much trouble after all to change the rudder angle at the top?   B)   Yeah, the bottom bearing would have needed a few inches of "strut" added but with the extra room for prop clearance, you could have skipped the leading edge hollow out.

 

The bit of conflict with proa trying to get you to do a balanced spade rudder was just like the conflicts on a reality show too and was really interesting to listen too and watch play out. I am sure some of the audience was rooting for proa to win you over.


Really?  A spade rudder wasn't the only alternative suggested.  I didn't notice anyone else "rooting for" moving the bottom (and perhaps top) bearing aft, which was another way to get more prop clearance and a balanced rudder.



#362 SASSAFRASS

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Posted 13 March 2017 - 06:00 PM

Thanks Proa,

You are definitely not a interior box thinker, enjoy your input, was having a "what if" conversation with Simon when we were done about carbon and he said it wold have probably been about the same amount of work obviously much lighter but a fair bit more for materials. should have taken a pic there is a strand of carbon in it from some shop cross contamination during dry stacking so it is technically a carbon rudder just .000000010%.......

#363 ProaSailor

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Posted 13 March 2017 - 07:44 PM

Thanks SASSAFRASS.  I never did hear why changing the angle on the rudder post, or moving it aft a few inches, was a bad idea?
 
Would have enjoyed this discussion more if wasn't so constrained...
 
 

Keep it simple Sassy. Moving the rudder post would be foolish for a project like this. Keep it real!

 
 

Sassy:
don't let them baffle you with BS.
I warned you this would happen.
You have a plan. It's a good plan. Now implement your plan.
Spade rudders have zero to do with your rudder mod.
 
It's not the fucking America's Cup.

 
 

I have never believed moving the stock was an reasonable option.

 
 

[...snip...]
 
People will BS you here and try to make it complicated. It's not. You are retro fitting a rudder to an existing boat. You have minimal options without getting silly. I'd tell you how to do it but that would reduce your satisfaction when the job is done.
 
I'll give you a hint:
Think flaps on a 747.
Do they have a leading edge?

 
 

Sassy:
I warned you early on that some people will over complicate this project.
I believe the rudder blade can be flat.
I also think some camber, as you have it now drawn would be better.
I do not think adherence to a specific foil shape is required. It's just outside the overall nature of your boat. (Spoiler on a Toyota Corolla?) No offense to your lovely boat.
Would a strict foil i.e. NACA foil section be better? Yes but I'll bet my JS 200 that you would never know the difference.
You will need some type of leading edge detail where you add the rudder balance area. Try to echo the look of the 0012 nose.
 
Don't let people fool you into thinking this is complicated. I have done countless rudders like this. Rudders that were built not just talked about.
This is easy. Build it as you now have it drawn and all will be good.



Que the TWILIGHT ZONE sound track.
 

 
 

Que more Twilite Zone music. At some point it needs to get real.

 

 

Looking good Sassy. Looks like it will be mission accomplished without all that silly reinventing the wheel stuff.
Interesting way of carving away the deadwood at the aperture. I don't do that kind of work so I never would have thought of doing it like that.
Make certain it is symmetrical, p&s.



#364 SASSAFRASS

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Posted 13 March 2017 - 08:45 PM

Proa

This is a little garbled but as our NA explained it to me for our boat it's all about small changes in water flow and as little disturbances as possible. That and the structural side of the timber construction. Using a shaped rudder with flow fwd would significantly increase the loading on the attachment points and add slightly different arms. For a non go fast hull the disturbance in water flow by the opening would also probably be a net loss vs the gain in rudder response. Some of the bigger schooners who race a lot told me its all about tiny or no changes in rudder. It's a large amount of mass and once the inertia is there you want to ride it for all its worth by having a fair complete shape and foil in your hull stem to stern. This is old school but that's our boat. The timber construction of the stern is set up to carry the load very well with the arrangement we have now the deadwood has three relatively even points to deal with it. By loosing the gudgeon bearing and pushing things aft you are putting a large arm on the lowest point of the deadwood and moving the top load out more into the horn timber.

#365 hobot

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Posted 13 March 2017 - 09:54 PM

Thanks SASSAFRASS.  I never did hear why changing the angle on the rudder post, or moving it aft a few inches, was a bad idea?
 
Would have enjoyed this discussion more if wasn't so constrained...
 
 


Keep it simple Sassy. Moving the rudder post would be foolish for a project like this. Keep it real!


 
 


Sassy:
don't let them baffle you with BS.
I warned you this would happen.
You have a plan. It's a good plan. Now implement your plan.
Spade rudders have zero to do with your rudder mod.
 
It's not the fucking America's Cup.

 
 


I have never believed moving the stock was an reasonable option.

 
 


[...snip...]
 
People will BS you here and try to make it complicated. It's not. You are retro fitting a rudder to an existing boat. You have minimal options without getting silly. I'd tell you how to do it but that would reduce your satisfaction when the job is done.
 
I'll give you a hint:
Think flaps on a 747.
Do they have a leading edge?

 
 


Sassy:
I warned you early on that some people will over complicate this project.
I believe the rudder blade can be flat.
I also think some camber, as you have it now drawn would be better.
I do not think adherence to a specific foil shape is required. It's just outside the overall nature of your boat. (Spoiler on a Toyota Corolla?) No offense to your lovely boat.
Would a strict foil i.e. NACA foil section be better? Yes but I'll bet my JS 200 that you would never know the difference.
You will need some type of leading edge detail where you add the rudder balance area. Try to echo the look of the 0012 nose.
 
Don't let people fool you into thinking this is complicated. I have done countless rudders like this. Rudders that were built not just talked about.
This is easy. Build it as you now have it drawn and all will be good.



Que the TWILIGHT ZONE sound track.
 
https://youtu.be/XVSRm80WzZk

 
 


Que more Twilite Zone music. At some point it needs to get real.

 
 


Looking good Sassy. Looks like it will be mission accomplished without all that silly reinventing the wheel stuff.
Interesting way of carving away the deadwood at the aperture. I don't do that kind of work so I never would have thought of doing it like that.
Make certain it is symmetrical, p&s.



Good God man! Do you not have anything else to occupy your time with?

#366 SASSAFRASS

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Posted 13 March 2017 - 10:15 PM

Going to try and give the paws a break today, IB profile intake is getting out of hand, no power tools just driving a pencil

Trying to match these awesome bow name boards that were my B day present from our friend Bruce on Orcas

image_zps0dvlffdu.jpeg

Will do a template with tip bearing router bit for the majority then finish with chisels

image_zps3n3yyl2j.jpeg

#367 SASSAFRASS

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Posted 18 March 2017 - 01:10 PM

All the pieces for a dry fit

image_zps1ezwi2gv.jpeg


Gudgon bearing

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Upper stock and tiller arm in coupling, still fits

image_zpsd1txag46.jpeg

image_zpsftcxq05s.jpeg

#368 SASSAFRASS

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Posted 18 March 2017 - 01:19 PM

Dry fit in

image_zpslnbl0ljp.jpeg

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Lots of fitting on parts but all in all not too bad. The last two days were consumed making a 2.5 " hole 3.5". The fuzzy recollection when I removed the old tube of there being. 1/2" steel bolt partially bored through was made much less fuzzy. A pretty cool boring setup loaned from Pete at the foundry but definitely was not in a pic taking state of mind.

Full dry fit today with the upper bearing and packing then they all get bedded and it's a done deal. Had to do a little fairing on the hull to clear a full 70deg sweep but I just got it. Will probably set the stops a little conservative to start out as its way more than was there before.

#369 hobot

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Posted 18 March 2017 - 01:23 PM

Progress....Awesome!!

#370 Bob Perry

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Posted 18 March 2017 - 02:54 PM

Looks beautiful Sassy.



#371 IStream

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Posted 18 March 2017 - 04:17 PM

Respect!

#372 nroose

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Posted 18 March 2017 - 04:31 PM

Very nice!

 

Looking forward to the report about how much better it works!



#373 Panope

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Posted 18 March 2017 - 04:38 PM

What a gorgeous improvement over the old mess.

 

DSC_0071.JPG



#374 Kris Cringle

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 09:42 PM

Nice work!! I'm impressed. 



#375 SASSAFRASS

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Posted 21 March 2017 - 05:55 AM

Thanks All, getting very close,

Had the nail biter day of assembly after dry fitting, rudder tube is put in with epoxy and since it's so cold had to use 205. All went well and it's officially done on the bottom. Will get a nice shot after finish hull painting

Put in the gear and finished the packing gland etc

image_zpsintemdjd.jpeg

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Prepped the cockpit and got framing squared away added tank chocks

image_zpsgaq9sazr.jpeg

First layer of ply fit will star gluing tomorrow

image_zpsudbmkvad.jpeg

#376 SASSAFRASS

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Posted 21 March 2017 - 06:02 AM

Was pretty sure the one covered in bottom paint was going to go but it ended up being the other one

image_zpsgx2mze8n.jpeg

Took down the fort at the stern and have almost worn three the tarp around the rudder so it makes sense, time to get back in the water and go places you don't need shoes

image_zpssxlghxdv.jpeg

#377 Parma

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Posted 21 March 2017 - 10:10 PM

while I am no expert it seems to me that those ribs on that original rudder might serve 2 purposes: 1 would be structural but the other purpose might be to prevent aeration down the depth of the rudder with a resultant reduced effectiveness.

 

Especially on a rudder that wide and that shallow both of which characteristics encourage aeration



#378 hobot

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Posted 03 April 2017 - 04:43 AM

How did everything go? Are we splashed again?

#379 SASSAFRASS

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Posted 03 April 2017 - 08:36 PM

So getting from here took a fair bit longer than I thought

image_zpsgaq9sazr.jpeg

#380 Bob Perry

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Posted 03 April 2017 - 08:41 PM

It always does Sassy.



#381 SASSAFRASS

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Posted 03 April 2017 - 08:41 PM

Here we go one official Tad Roberts to rudder

image_zpsivmrnxym.jpeg


image_zpsh8mhfpto.jpeg

image_zpszlleovhj.jpeg

#382 Bob Perry

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Posted 03 April 2017 - 08:42 PM

Looks great Sassy. And on a sunny day to boot!



#383 SASSAFRASS

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Posted 03 April 2017 - 08:48 PM

Big thanks to Tad who is always great to work with and very patient with my "good ideas"

Also Simon at 206 composites was awesome and taught me a ton

Pete and Cathy at the PT Foundry were great as always top quality all the way around


So as it shows in we went and we are floating a little take up in one seam and a check but that seams to be about it. Was a big push getting the upper bits together but now we have a cockpit that I hope won't leak...

Recycled teak from the old cockpit, only a small pile of off cuts and it all got used

image_zps6cx45i5q.jpeg

Steering gear all done

image_zpseahamv0s.jpeg

image_zps8jsxgf0v.jpeg

#384 SASSAFRASS

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Posted 03 April 2017 - 08:52 PM

And the new and improved cockpit

image_zpsqwc9a1ng.jpeg

image_zps70u2fluq.jpeg

image_zps2cgvsff9.jpeg

The initial run was pretty positive, just dock trials and moving to the slip, helm is pretty sensitive with lots of feel, boat drives a little like a car now which is weird.

Time to drink beer and do nothing for a bit then the all the other stuff t finish.....

#385 IStream

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Posted 03 April 2017 - 09:05 PM

Congratulations on a job well done!

#386 Rasputin22

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Posted 03 April 2017 - 09:23 PM

A sunny days for photos and the insides of the camera and/or lenses fog up! I'm surprised you don't get mold growing in your elements, I've had problems with that with my cameras down in the tropics. Nice job on the rudder and everything. Looks like you really got your moneys worth out of Tad. I bet you wet your pants when you make your first tack sailing with that new rudder.



#387 SASSAFRASS

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Posted 03 April 2017 - 10:07 PM

Rass that's just a IPhone covered in sawdust epoxy and god knows what.

Some numbers from our extended stay, always keeps thing in perspective

400 latex gloves, kinda messy
3 fein 6" backing pads and too much sandpaper to count
4 gallons of west epoxy not counting the rudder
800 screws
16 sheets of ply
20 yards of 10oz cloth
10 boxes of rags
3 power power tools cords cut through in operation, planer skill and chop saw
50 bf of Sapele
6 tarps
2 gal of primer
3 gal of topcoat
20' of new hose

And on it goes, I forbid myself from touching any electrical while we were on the hard so now some fun stuff, new pilot watermaker and radar

#388 hobot

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Posted 03 April 2017 - 10:16 PM

Well done Sassafrass!

#389 Ishmael

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Posted 04 April 2017 - 01:21 AM

Wow, nice job!



#390 JBE

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Posted 04 April 2017 - 04:27 AM

Excellent , I've been enjoying this thread. When are you off into the South Pacific , Jake?

#391 Kris Cringle

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Posted 04 April 2017 - 11:40 AM

Very nice work, Sassafrass! I hate to be a dunce but what is your boat? The link on your posts doesn't work. 



#392 Py26129

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Posted 04 April 2017 - 01:03 PM

Thanks for sharing the process.  Very interesting to follow.  Let us know how the first sail goes.



#393 SASSAFRASS

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Posted 04 April 2017 - 03:04 PM

Thanks everyone we are pretty happy to be splashed, pumps have stopped running this morning so that's good. Kris the link was to our Picasa album which Google took away and meshed into their pics, have yet to find a good way to share or link to there albums, some info on the boat here

http://www.woodenboa...oats/sassafrass

Other than the hull deck down its pretty much all been Tad. He usually gives guidelines that are adjustable, like with the pilot house, he gave a ballpark then had us mock it up with door skin and adjust till it was proportionately correct to the eye.

We have to make the yard pile go away today then start wrapping up the rest of the stuff on board. Pretty suprised on the trim we are still aft some but the stern is up by about 3" from when we hauled, so things seem to be moving in the right direction.

It wasn't really a good test but the initial feel is the max prop is producing significantly more thrust than the old prop.

#394 SASSAFRASS

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Posted 04 April 2017 - 03:08 PM

JBE no hard plans, heading south this summer for MX and pretty open after that.

#395 Bob Perry

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Posted 04 April 2017 - 04:01 PM

I think stern high trim is good at this stage Sassy. Boats gain weight aft over time, like some people.






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