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Steve and Dave Clarks Unidentified Foiling Object

Foiling Week Newport

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#1 Doug Lord

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Posted 24 August 2016 - 10:01 PM

Looking forward to pictures and video!!!



#2 Елиfooterz - atefooterz

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Posted 24 August 2016 - 10:35 PM

I know about click bait...  but thread baiting?



#3 The Hot Chick

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Posted 24 August 2016 - 10:47 PM



#4 Steve Clark

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Posted 24 August 2016 - 10:54 PM

Attached File  Area52 1 mid size.jpg   266.85KB   192 downloads

 

Wild speculation may now commence.

But a few details.

Weight is 52 Kg.

8 and change meters of sail.

Two T foils, wand on main foil.

Foils retract between the hulls for upright launch and recovery.

Floats upright at the dock.

Closer to the Laser price point than the Waszp price point.

 

Nifty little project which should have commercial legs'

Focus has been on ease of use and handling, not a demonstration of a unique foil configuration.  Plenty of original thinking  and some unique solutions to achieve performance and cost goals.

 

Check us out in Newport and go for a sail.

SHC



#5 Елиfooterz - atefooterz

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Posted 24 August 2016 - 11:08 PM

attachicon.gifArea52 1 mid size.jpg

 

Wild speculation may now commence.

But a few details.

Weight is 52 Kg.

8 and change meters of sail.

Two T foils, wand on main foil.

Foils retract between the hulls for upright launch and recovery.

Floats upright at the dock.

Closer to the Laser price point than the Waszp price point.

 

Nifty little project which should have commercial legs'

Focus has been on ease of use and handling, not a demonstration of a unique foil configuration.  Plenty of original thinking  and some unique solutions to achieve performance and cost goals.

 

Check us out in Newport and go for a sail.

SHC

Rule 101 in marketing: Start your own thread: Control the vibe: :)

Best wishes and success for a peoples foiler at an affordable pricepoint.



#6 Doug Lord

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Posted 24 August 2016 - 11:36 PM

attachicon.gifArea52 1 mid size.jpg

 

Wild speculation may now commence.

 

Closer to the Laser price point than the Waszp price point.

 

Nifty little project which should have commercial legs'

Focus has been on ease of use and handling, not a demonstration of a unique foil configuration.  Plenty of original thinking  and some unique solutions to achieve performance and cost goals.

 

Check us out in Newport and go for a sail.

SHC

 

Great idea! I wish you guys good luck.......



#7 Phil S

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Posted 25 August 2016 - 02:10 AM

Impressive Steve.



#8 duncan (the other one)

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Posted 25 August 2016 - 02:16 AM

That's a nifty rig,

 

is it designed to bend the mast with outhaul/boom tension? 

 

Is that an up-fucker at the front to control leech tension?



#9 Doug Lord

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Posted 25 August 2016 - 02:26 AM

Better picture:

 

2lctrit.jpg



#10 Dex Sawash

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Posted 25 August 2016 - 02:26 AM

The wishbones go to spreader ends?

#11 Елиfooterz - atefooterz

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Posted 25 August 2016 - 02:32 AM

Wishbone boom to spreaders & diamond stays allow mast rotation, no spanner required.



#12 Rasputin22

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Posted 25 August 2016 - 03:12 AM

The boom/spreader/mast geomtry is brilliant! Congrats and can't wait to see more. This could be the mythical 'peoples foiler'.  The hull reminds me of a Hobie MonoMulti 12'er that they built for a while. Could it be the donor hull for this boat?

 

IMAG0639.jpg

 

Monocat was the name

 

MonoCat3a500.jpg



#13 The Hot Chick

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Posted 25 August 2016 - 04:18 AM

Sailor weight range??

#14 duncan (the other one)

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Posted 25 August 2016 - 07:42 AM

ah ok - so if the wishbones go to spreader tips.. how do you control leech tension?

 

and Doug - you reposted the same picture in a smaller format.  Don't be a dumbass.



#15 Wess

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Posted 25 August 2016 - 12:32 PM

attachicon.gifArea52 1 mid size.jpg

 

Wild speculation may now commence.

But a few details.

Weight is 52 Kg.

8 and change meters of sail.

Two T foils, wand on main foil.

Foils retract between the hulls for upright launch and recovery.

Floats upright at the dock.

Closer to the Laser price point than the Waszp price point.

 

Nifty little project which should have commercial legs'

Focus has been on ease of use and handling, not a demonstration of a unique foil configuration.  Plenty of original thinking  and some unique solutions to achieve performance and cost goals.

 

Check us out in Newport and go for a sail.

SHC

Very interesting.

 

Will you guys be at the Annapolis show?  Certainly a must see!



#16 Елиfooterz - atefooterz

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Posted 25 August 2016 - 12:59 PM

ah ok - so if the wishbones go to spreader tips.. how do you control leech tension?

With the right wing mast section then boom tension is set when fitted, fat top geometry would mean a squeeze on the main would help any out of the ordinary power for low mode, med to high would be auto via mast bend & batten stifnress . Being a foiler you need to keep main flat n fast with leech by design rather than user tweaked so much,  my guess.

 

EDIT: Obvs the boom angle does not allow leech rise with freed sheet as much as a horizontal boom ( hopefully you already know that)



#17 Doug Halsey

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Posted 25 August 2016 - 01:13 PM

With the right wing mast section then boom tension is set when fitted, fat top geometry would mean a squeeze on the main would help any out of the ordinary power for low mode, med to high would be auto via mast bend & batten stifnress .


I've read this "sentence" a dozen times & still can't decipher it. Can someone please translate it?

#18 Wess

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Posted 25 August 2016 - 01:33 PM

H

 

 

With the right wing mast section then boom tension is set when fitted, fat top geometry would mean a squeeze on the main would help any out of the ordinary power for low mode, med to high would be auto via mast bend & batten stifnress .


I've read this "sentence" a dozen times & still can't decipher it. Can someone please translate it?

 

Yea, I think the Texas dude was just waking up when that was typed.  Can't even rearrange the words to find logic in that!

 

I was more interested to learn how much I needed to diet from that picture.  I am guessing 12 knots of breeze, at 110 true, and a skipper weighing in at 165 lbs.



#19 Dave Clark

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Posted 25 August 2016 - 01:39 PM

Well I guess the secret's out. Here's a little teaser for you all.
To answer a couple questions, the two primary testers have been me: 156lbs and Dad: 235lbs. Works for both of us. Power and lift make a lot of old constraints irrelevant.
Leech tension is done with a snotter at the clew. Also dad made a typo. It's just under 8 quare meters of sail area.




DRC



#20 Wess

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Posted 25 August 2016 - 02:07 PM

Well I guess the secret's out. Here's a little teaser for you all.
To answer a couple questions, the two primary testers have been me: 156lbs and Dad: 235lbs. Works for both of us. Power and lift make a lot of old constraints irrelevant.
Leech tension is done with a snotter at the clew. Also dad made a typo. It's just under 8 quare meters of sail area.




DRC

That is pretty cool (boat) and innovative (rig design).  So in that last one we seem (?) to have 156 lbs you (sorry to have added 9 lbs in my earlier post, LOL) foiling nice and stable in what looks like maybe a 13-15 knot puff, sailing at about 100 true?

 

Right near the end it was interesting to see the mainsheet angle sheeting arrangement.  I am guessing rigging the wishbone boom like that to the spreaders and having the sheeting block forward of the end of the boom means that as you sheet, the mast is bent and the sail flattened without having too really tighten the leech?

 

Look forward to seeing more.



#21 Doug Lord

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Posted 25 August 2016 - 02:33 PM

Well I guess the secret's out. Here's a little teaser for you all.
To answer a couple questions, the two primary testers have been me: 156lbs and Dad: 235lbs. Works for both of us. Power and lift make a lot of old constraints irrelevant.
Leech tension is done with a snotter at the clew. Also dad made a typo. It's just under 8 quare meters of sail area.




DRC

 

Dave, how light a wind will the boat fly with ,say, 190lb crew? She looks great!



#22 Raz'r

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Posted 25 August 2016 - 08:24 PM

i'm in, where do I send the deposit....



#23 Елиfooterz - atefooterz

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Posted 25 August 2016 - 08:30 PM

 

With the right wing mast section then boom tension is set when fitted, fat top geometry would mean a squeeze on the main would help any out of the ordinary power for low mode, med to high would be auto via mast bend & batten stifnress .


I've read this "sentence" a dozen times & still can't decipher it. Can someone please translate it?

 

Cool i think we need a match race in a UFO then ! :)



#24 teknologika

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Posted 25 August 2016 - 08:45 PM

Looks way easier to sail than a Waszp. Removes the whole lack of static stability problem.

#25 Raz'r

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Posted 25 August 2016 - 09:39 PM

seriously, where do I send the deposit?



#26 Dave Clark

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Posted 25 August 2016 - 09:58 PM

seriously, where do I send the deposit?

PM me. Batch 1 is literally being produced right now. I'm overseeing a hull deck bond job at 9am tomorrow.

DRC

#27 duncan (the other one)

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Posted 25 August 2016 - 10:08 PM

 

ah ok - so if the wishbones go to spreader tips.. how do you control leech tension?

With the right wing mast section then boom tension is set when fitted, fat top geometry would mean a squeeze on the main would help any out of the ordinary power for low mode, med to high would be auto via mast bend & batten stifnress . Being a foiler you need to keep main flat n fast with leech by design rather than user tweaked so much,  my guess.

 

EDIT: Obvs the boom angle does not allow leech rise with freed sheet as much as a horizontal boom ( hopefully you already know that)

 

 

cheers -- make sense.. automagic is good.



#28 duncan (the other one)

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Posted 25 August 2016 - 10:09 PM

 

With the right wing mast section then boom tension is set when fitted, fat top geometry would mean a squeeze on the main would help any out of the ordinary power for low mode, med to high would be auto via mast bend & batten stifnress .


I've read this "sentence" a dozen times & still can't decipher it. Can someone please translate it?

 

 

low mode - you have sheet to play with, so can adjust.

 

high mode -- you're fully sheeted in, and rely on mast tip bend and fat top layoff.



#29 Елиfooterz - atefooterz

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Posted 25 August 2016 - 10:16 PM

 

 

With the right wing mast section then boom tension is set when fitted, fat top geometry would mean a squeeze on the main would help any out of the ordinary power for low mode, med to high would be auto via mast bend & batten stifnress .


I've read this "sentence" a dozen times & still can't decipher it. Can someone please translate it?

 

 

low mode - you have sheet to play with, so can adjust.

 

high mode -- you're fully sheeted in, and rely on mast tip bend and fat top layoff.

 

Grrrrrrrrrr shhhhhhhhhhhh! do not feed the "do not need to knows!" :)



#30 Raz'r

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Posted 25 August 2016 - 10:19 PM

 

seriously, where do I send the deposit?

PM me. Batch 1 is literally being produced right now. I'm overseeing a hull deck bond job at 9am tomorrow.

DRC

 

 

sent



#31 bruno

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Posted 25 August 2016 - 10:38 PM

Congrats, good to see

#32 gui

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Posted 26 August 2016 - 01:21 AM

Better picture:

 

2lctrit.jpg

 

Looking good guys!



#33 Елиfooterz - atefooterz

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Posted 26 August 2016 - 05:22 AM

Is there any rake adjustment on those spreaders? Would make fine tuning for variable expected breeze outing possibilities, interesting.



#34 Dirtline Rigger

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Posted 26 August 2016 - 06:53 AM

So what is ideal?? 14 stone??

#35 Phil S

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Posted 26 August 2016 - 07:32 AM

Is it no wonder that Steve and Dave kept this secret for so long. Some of you guys do ask some stupid questions.

This family has an impeccable record in sailboat innovation, design, construction and manufacture, so if they are ready to show the world they have a lot of things well sorted. Trust them. They have done the fun bit, the tough bit comes next.

 

But it's only just going into some sort of limited production and it looks like there is only one sample sailing so far. The boat is far from fully tuned and sorted. No one knows yet how it will go with different winds or different waves, especially compared to anything else let alone with different size people. We may get the answers once they sell enough to people who actually want to race them, and who spend the time to work out how to get the most from them.

 

It looks like a nice simple option to get people flying, I doubt it's going to be a world beating performance foiler, but Steve has posted already that ease of use was his priority.

 

Hats off to them creating something for an apparent market for a simple fun foiler. Wish them luck with the marketing and answering all the other stupid questions.



#36 Елиfooterz - atefooterz

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Posted 26 August 2016 - 07:47 AM

I think for two mid experience level players it would be like a day i had with an underpowered second rig 8`skiff against a good to smart alec Sabot kid, on a light day with occasional 90degree different wind direction bullets. Sabot kid just beat me as i had 3 capsizes between Snapper Isld & the mark near Tarban creek. The UFO should trundle along offering some safety against the hero to zero action of a Moth or Waszp in the crash n burn world of foiling fun.



#37 Raz'r

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Posted 26 August 2016 - 08:16 AM

If I want pure speed foiling, why wouldn't I get a foiling kite?

Why spend Uber $s on a moth, etc?

This looks like I could give it a go, and turn the keys over to my kids for a spin.

#38 S/V Airlie is Worthless

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Posted 26 August 2016 - 01:42 PM

What an awesome way to handle mast rotation. Well done.

 

Looks like the foiler for the masses

 

I bet they sell a shit ton of these puppies



#39 DTA

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Posted 26 August 2016 - 02:07 PM

I will buy this when available. Marvelous!



#40 Gouvernail

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Posted 27 August 2016 - 04:24 AM

I am interested

#41 Major Tom

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Posted 27 August 2016 - 06:45 AM

See you in Newport, if I can get half way round the world to be there it can't be too hard can it?

Having a planned business trip does help a little.......

#42 Reht

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Posted 27 August 2016 - 10:35 AM

When the Clarks says a product is ready for release/production, I'm going to take their word for it. I look forward to photos and videos, but especially reports. In particular I'm curious how it'll cope with an average dinghy sailor bloke who has minimal "high performance" background, and on the experiences from a current adept moth sailor to hear how it compares to the standard in foiling. If we hear from some high performance dingy and skiff sailors, that's bonus, and in Newport I'm sure there's no shortage of keelboat sailors to give it a try.

 

Hopefully we don't find out how fragile it is.



#43 Mambo Kings

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Posted 27 August 2016 - 12:40 PM

Also dad made a typo. It's just under 8 quare meters of sail area.

DRC


Ahhh, dad's typos again!

You are using the old quare meter rule. Glad you quared that one away.

#44 GybeSetŪ

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Posted 27 August 2016 - 03:02 PM

whats it rate?

#45 Gouvernail

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Posted 27 August 2016 - 05:32 PM

whats it rate?


Looks like at least a 9.5 depending on the Russian judge score

#46 ortegakid

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Posted 27 August 2016 - 09:01 PM

Looks great DRC,SHC, might need one also!



#47 ortegakid

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Posted 28 August 2016 - 12:13 AM

whats it rate?

Looks like at least a 9.5 depending on the Russian judge score


#48 JimC

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Posted 28 August 2016 - 07:48 AM

From 100 yards off the beach to 100 yards from the beach i suspect it may be no easier to sail and own than a Moth. However the rest is a very big deal indeed.
The big things i see are way easier launching and rigging, and far less risk of handling damage to the foils. That's huge.
But i shall look on the rig with great interest. The obvious aim is to permit deck end plate at the luff coupled with a way of managing leech tension that doesn't involve the current insane loads. It seems very feasible that the gains from the deck sweeping will way more than outweigh drag losses from the 'wishbone' spars. It gives me an idea...

#49 Phil S

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Posted 28 August 2016 - 08:10 AM

Jim.

The Clarks have said the boat is aimed at being easy to use. Its obviously way ahead of the Moth, Wazsp, or any of the foing cats in this aspect and with regard to simplicity of rig and launching. To do this there are compromises. It has a lot of windage, the rig looks to be very full and twisted compared to what makes a moth go fast, but that might make it easier to take off, even if it limits upwind ability and top speed. The righting moment is limited by moderate beam, again limiting speed. Its not going to be a fast foiler, it's going to be an easy foiler. That's their target market. If it gets more US sailors thinking fast it's got to be a good thing.



#50 BR3232

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Posted 28 August 2016 - 08:21 AM

 

attachicon.gifArea52 1 mid size.jpg

 

Wild speculation may now commence.

But a few details.

Weight is 52 Kg.

8 and change meters of sail.

Two T foils, wand on main foil.

Foils retract between the hulls for upright launch and recovery.

Floats upright at the dock.

Closer to the Laser price point than the Waszp price point.

 

Nifty little project which should have commercial legs'

Focus has been on ease of use and handling, not a demonstration of a unique foil configuration.  Plenty of original thinking  and some unique solutions to achieve performance and cost goals.

 

Check us out in Newport and go for a sail.

SHC

Rule 101 in marketing: Start your own thread: Control the vibe: :)

Best wishes and success for a peoples foiler at an affordable pricepoint.

 

 

 

Only if you BUY AN AD



#51 Steam Flyer

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Posted 28 August 2016 - 01:15 PM

This looks great!!

 

 


...   ...   ...

 

Only if you BUY AN AD

 

 

Go dry up. They didn't start this thread and so far, they're not trying to sell anything.

 

 

Well I guess the secret's out. Here's a little teaser for you all.
To answer a couple questions, the two primary testers have been me: 156lbs and Dad: 235lbs. Works for both of us. Power and lift make a lot of old constraints irrelevant.
Leech tension is done with a snotter at the clew. Also dad made a typo. It's just under 8 quare meters of sail area.




DRC

 

I'm in. That looks incredible.

 

FB- Doug



#52 JimC

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Posted 28 August 2016 - 02:35 PM

, the rig looks to be very full and twisted compared to what makes a moth go fast,


I suspect that's the sort of thing development will sort out.

#53 JimC

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Posted 28 August 2016 - 02:45 PM

Only if you BUY AN AD


When you've contributed one tenth of one percent of what the Clarks have to making this place worth visiting you can criticise. Until then shut the **** up.

#54 mad

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Posted 28 August 2016 - 03:41 PM

Only if you BUY AN AD

When you've contributed one tenth of one percent of what the Clarks have to making this place worth visiting you can criticise. Until then shut the **** up.

Agreed.

#55 Alan Crawford

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Posted 28 August 2016 - 04:58 PM

Agreed +100 on the Clarks' contribution!

Upper wind and wave range?

Assume no spectacular wipe outs like a pitch poling moth?

How easy is it to right the boat after a capsize?

#56 Kenny Dumas

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Posted 28 August 2016 - 05:38 PM

Very cool. Checks many boxes. Add me to your build forecast.

#57 Steve Clark

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Posted 28 August 2016 - 07:19 PM

Foils nicely.
By playing with the wand extension, you can control how exciting it gets.
I have no idea how much wind the boat can take, we have been in over our heads before the boat stopped working.
Platform is the smallest thing I could design that kept you upright and stable before and in between flights.
At about 250, clearance under the bridge deck gets to be a problem, and the really heavy are going to have an extra portion of sucks until the foils can get you a few inches of freeboard to clear wave tops.
The spreaders are attached to the booms. Mast rotates to follow the booms . The jumper wires themselves have a block and tackle on them, so you can control mast bend by altering the tension. As this is directly opposed to the thrust of the booms, when you straighten the mast, you also tighten the leech. Leech tension and foot tension are interlinked like on any sprit/wish boom sail, and you tune with down haul and out haul just as you would a sailboard rig. Mast is really bendy and the sail has a ton of luff round, so there is quite a bit of range in the tuning. Sail is VERY similar to a Moth cut.

I suppose I should say something about this Moth thing. I like Moths, I have thought about designing and building a faster Moth. I have thought about designing other boats as well. This design is not a Moth and I really haven't given a moments thought about how the performance of the two might compare. The Moth is built to a much higher specification, makes no compromise for cost or ease of handling. Performance is the only goal. The Moth class has its own justification for existing and has evolved into a very specialized class with it's own rewards for excellence. This does not mean that ALL other small boats, foiling or otherwise, have to compare themselves to the Moth class. There is room ( I would almost say need) for other small foilers with different characteristics that may apeal to a different cadre of sailors. To that end, I have borrowed freely from what the Moths have developed, and strenuously avoided what I consider undesirable or unnecessary difficulties and chacteristics. The result, I hope the market finds, is a very satisfactory little sailboat.
We will be giving a full presentation at Foiling Week, come if you can.
SHC.

#58 Raz'r

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Posted 28 August 2016 - 08:38 PM

Please record and post the presentation. Thanks!

#59 BR3232

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Posted 29 August 2016 - 01:50 AM

Oops, forgot Americans are incapable of speaking in jest



#60 Steve Clark

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Posted 29 August 2016 - 03:00 AM

Oops, forgot Americans are incapable of speaking in jest

You don't know me very well.
SHC

#61 BR3232

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Posted 29 August 2016 - 03:34 AM

 

Oops, forgot Americans are incapable of speaking in jest

 

You don't know me very well.
SHC

 

Your disciples, then.



#62 Steve Clark

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Posted 29 August 2016 - 12:14 PM

Just keep digging. The hole gets deeper and deeper.
SHC

#63 Wess

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Posted 29 August 2016 - 03:10 PM

Ignore the trolls Steve.

 

Wish I could be in Newport but can't.  Would love to see/hear more about the boat.  Hope you keep posting updates.



#64 eliboat

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Posted 29 August 2016 - 04:12 PM

 

Oops, forgot Americans are incapable of speaking in jest

You don't know me very well.
SHC

 

Very funny indeed



#65 mad

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Posted 29 August 2016 - 07:38 PM

Oops, forgot Americans are incapable of speaking in jest

 
You don't know me very well.
SHC
 
Your disciples, then.

You're so far out of your depth on this one, it's probably a good idea to just shut up, before you confirm to all what you are....

#66 BR3232

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Posted 29 August 2016 - 11:37 PM

No one's allowed to make SA jokes any more, I thought this was Anarchy? I wasn't actually telling anyone to buy an ad.

 

9nohQh4.jpg

 

Anyway, can it foil upwind? The sail looks big enough, but is there enough RM?



#67 Raz'r

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Posted 30 August 2016 - 12:09 AM

Who the F wants to go upwind?



#68 Team_GBR

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Posted 30 August 2016 - 12:33 AM

No one's allowed to make SA jokes any more, I thought this was Anarchy? I wasn't actually telling anyone to buy an ad.

 

9nohQh4.jpg

 

 

You have to be concerned when you are the only one laughing. Just because you thought it was a joke doesn't mean that everybody else thought it was one. There was zero in your post to suggest there was anything funny, sarcastic or otherwise about what you were writing. At the moment you are like a comedian who got no laughs, then explains the joke, people still don't get it so the comedian tells them they don't understand humour.



#69 Steve Clark

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Posted 30 August 2016 - 01:29 AM

It foils upwind.
SHC

#70 Steam Flyer

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Posted 30 August 2016 - 01:35 AM

It foils upwind.
SHC

 

Yeah but not like THIS

 

a87c7f585acc83456b8db850ab945fcd.jpg

 

FB- Doug



#71 Lost in Translation

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Posted 30 August 2016 - 03:05 AM

Very innovative approach.  I had been thinking about some of the pieces of the UFO concept, but Steve took it much farther and made it a reality.  Can't wait to see it Newport.  

 

Steve, from what you are seeing, do you think the concept has potential for many catamarans? 



#72 sail(plane)

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Posted 30 August 2016 - 01:56 PM

Is nobody going to compare it to the S9?? To me they are pointing to the same target

#73 bill4

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Posted 30 August 2016 - 02:29 PM

I'll have a go. The S9 appears much more technical and complicated than the UFO. The rig is more sophisticated, and with a trapeze it would likely be more difficult to sail. It really looks more like a training boat for A-Class cats. Also, at $18,000 (in Europe) the price point is more than double the UFO.



#74 JimC

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Posted 30 August 2016 - 03:06 PM

S9 versus UFO - I think you could say that in concept Steve and David's boat is more like an extreme tunnel hulled scow than a catamaran, so really utterly different craft.. 

 

The extraordinarily long gestation of foil boats (the idea dates back to the 50s, it was reasonably often attempted in the 60s) is probably as much as anything down to carbon fibre being a required material, but I think for a long time configurations were wrong.

 

Initial foilers were all 3 point craft with bruce foils, like power hydrofoils. This was quite wrong, because it was surface piercing and required brute power. Next the experimentalists were seduced by the trimaran sit in the middle concept, and in particular by the possibilities of holding down the windward hull with the foil. The T foil was in the event a critical development, but this configuration was a blind alley - eg Hobie Trifoiler.

 

Moth experiments started with 3 point concepts, but never really worked well enough, but the big jump was when the Moth class banned the 3 point boats (well, confirmed that really the rules already banned them) and it turned out the two T foils on the centreline is, thus far at least, the right configuration for a monohull. 

 

T foils were tried on cats, but didn't seem to be that great. What seems to be working for multihulls is the heavily curved and shaped highly asymettric foil, and sailing the boat like a proper multihull - ie windward hull and foils clear of the water. So there, so far, we have what seems to be the right configuration for a catamaran foiler, and its utterly different from the monohull. I suspect there may be a way to go there though.

 

Now the other thing we can see is that all the hopeful wider market monohull foilers so far have stumbled, and I think the reason has been that they were ether half ass conversions, or else just second rate Moths, and if you're going to have a second rate Moth then a secondhand real Moth is better. So maybe no-one has yet come up with the right configuration for a wider market monohull foiler.  This seems to me the first considered attempt at something that is neither a half ass conversion nor a second rate Moth, but a fresh look at the problem saying, "right, what is the correct configuration to put above centre line T foils".  Is it right? Time will tell, but there's clearly a lot of smart thinking gone on.



#75 Doug Lord

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Posted 30 August 2016 - 03:30 PM

 

 

Moth experiments started with 3 point concepts, but never really worked well enough, but the big jump was when the Moth class banned the 3 point boats (well, confirmed that really the rules already banned them) and it turned out the two T foils on the centreline is, thus far at least, the right configuration for a monohull. 

 

 

Now the other thing we can see is that all the hopeful wider market monohull foilers so far have stumbled, and I think the reason has been that they were ether half ass conversions, or else just second rate Moths, and if you're going to have a second rate Moth then a secondhand real Moth is better. So maybe no-one has yet come up with the right configuration for a wider market monohull foiler.  This seems to me the first considered attempt at something that is neither a half ass conversion nor a second rate Moth, but a fresh look at the problem saying, "right, what is the correct configuration to put above centre line T foils".  Is it right? Time will tell, but there's clearly a lot of smart thinking gone on.

 

I think Steve and Daves boat is outstanding but it isn't the only new monohull foiler. The Quant 23 is the first foiling keelboat in the history of the world and it uses foils that are entirely different from anything else on the market. They develop righting moment as well as lift. What they don't do is generate lateral resistance so they can be 100% retracted in very light air(or any other time you don't want to foil). It has to be very light air because this monohull keelboat will foil in 5 knots of wind on flat water.

There is another new boat- the Flo 1 by aeronamics- that is using the same type of foil as the Quant with the same aim to fly in light air. 

These two boats and some others are trashing the old concepts about foiling in terms of making the whole wind range available to their customers contrary to the first production foilers that needed over 10 knots to foil.

You're 100% right-there is a lot of smart thinking going on.



#76 Doug Halsey

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Posted 30 August 2016 - 05:51 PM

The extraordinarily long gestation of foil boats (the idea dates back to the 50s, it was reasonably often attempted in the 60s) is probably as much as anything down to carbon fibre being a required material, but I think for a long time configurations were wrong.

Initial foilers were all 3 point craft with bruce foils, like power hydrofoils. This was quite wrong, because it was surface piercing and required brute power. Next the experimentalists were seduced by the trimaran sit in the middle concept, and in particular by the possibilities of holding down the windward hull with the foil. The T foil was in the event a critical development, but this configuration was a blind alley - eg Hobie Trifoiler. .


Jim : I think your history needs a little revising.

Ironically enough, the first sailing hydrofoil (at least that I'm aware of) was probably more like the UFO than anything else. Designed by Robert Gilruth & Bill Carl, and sailed in 1938, it was a small catamaran with a horizontal main foil spanning the entire distance between the hulls. I'm not sure what sort of aft-foil, or foils it had for pitch control.

After that, there have been all sorts of different configurations, including many 4-point catamarans - not just 3-point configurations.

To say that "the configurations were wrong" ignores the fact that several of these configurations set World Speed Records, either outright (l'Hydroptere), or in their sail-area categories (Icarus, Longshot, at least one of Sam Bradfield's boats, etc.) And their sail areas were not particularly large; no need for any "brute force".

What is different these days is that foilers are being designed to perform well around a racecourse, not just in speed trials. A Moth is very fast in that regard, but its top speeds would be no match to some of the earlier boats with their wrong configurations.

Finally, the use of carbon fiber is not necessarily required in order to develop a successful foiler - witness the Waspz, the Quant-23, & other recent designs.

#77 Doug Lord

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Posted 30 August 2016 - 07:19 PM

About the Catafoil-1938-thanks for reminding me, Doug:

R. Gilruth and Bill Cart, also of the US and of the NACA started experimenting
with foils in 1938. They successfully flew a catamaran hydrofoil
sailing craft which took off at 5 knots and cruised at 12 knots. The main
foil had an aspect ratio of 11 : I, a 12 ft span, a I ft chord and the remarkable
L/D ratio of 25 : I. The foil section was one of big camber for high lift at low speed, like NACA 65-506.
 (Bold by DL)

 

http://forums.sailin...howtopic=171516

 

http://www.boatdesig...38-a-54980.html

 

 282eev.jpg



#78 HomoSapien

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Posted 30 August 2016 - 07:32 PM

Nothing new under this sun http://sailboatdata....p?class_id=7861



#79 Doug Lord

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Posted 30 August 2016 - 07:35 PM

Can't forget Dominion-the first tunnel hulled scow-1898:

 

v7sdb8.jpg

Attached Files



#80 JimC

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Posted 30 August 2016 - 07:47 PM

 

Jim : I think your history needs a little revising.
 

Not the place to discuss, but I'm happy with what I wrote .



#81 Rohanoz

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Posted 30 August 2016 - 09:57 PM

SHC - while I appreciate the ingenuity of the rig, can you give a little insight into why the extra windage and complication of the setup is justified on a boat that is otherwise designed to be so easily accessible and simple?

#82 Dave Clark

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Posted 30 August 2016 - 10:54 PM

SHC - while I appreciate the ingenuity of the rig, can you give a little insight into why the extra windage and complication of the setup is justified on a boat that is otherwise designed to be so easily accessible and simple?


I can field this one. Had a hand in the rig development. Wishbones are safer and allow endplating to the deck which has some nice effects. I'm pretty psyched about our aero package. Plus powerful vangs, and booms that can really vang up a roughly 8 square meter rig are neither simple nor cheap. We explored a bunch of other stuff. We chose this package.

Btw, I've got to personally thank you and Amac for at least a part of this boat's existance. The first boat I foiled was your bladerider in Newport way back in 07 during,the bladerider world tour. Love at first flight. It was only a matter of time.

DRC

#83 Rohanoz

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Posted 31 August 2016 - 04:07 AM

SHC - while I appreciate the ingenuity of the rig, can you give a little insight into why the extra windage and complication of the setup is justified on a boat that is otherwise designed to be so easily accessible and simple?

I can field this one. Had a hand in the rig development. Wishbones are safer and allow endplating to the deck which has some nice effects. I'm pretty psyched about our aero package. Plus powerful vangs, and booms that can really vang up a roughly 8 square meter rig are neither simple nor cheap. We explored a bunch of other stuff. We chose this package.

Btw, I've got to personally thank you and Amac for at least a part of this boat's existance. The first boat I foiled was your bladerider in Newport way back in 07 during,the bladerider world tour. Love at first flight. It was only a matter of time.

DRC

Sorry Dave - not that Rohan! But he used to post here a bit, so may pass by and catch your nice words!!!


Thanks for the info on your thinking for rig layout choice. While I'm personally not convinced, beyond the end-plating, I'll be very keen to see how it fairs in the end users hands.

#84 BR3232

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Posted 31 August 2016 - 12:51 PM

Is nobody going to compare it to the S9?? To me they are pointing to the same target


Hobie Bravo?

[If anyone is wondering, I am taking it upon myself to officially declare this post as a joke]

#85 Doug Lord

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Posted 31 August 2016 - 02:55 PM

One of the reasons I was so surprised seeing the UFO is that I've been working on a model design that is a sort of modern version of Dominion-the first tunnel hulled scow mentioned earlier in this thread. Scaled up the model would work well at 16' as a singlehander. The biggest difference is that the Dominion 2-HW uses foils similar to and inspired by Hugh Welbourns Quant 23.

Amazing coincidence in somewhat similar hull shape!

 

D2-100% self-righting RC foiler:

 

64qr2o.jpg
 
bi48wl.jpg
 
20 year old "B" test rig-"A" rig is much bigger and designed to work with a Trapeze Power Ballast System. Good chance it will foil with the "B" rig and no movable ballast:
 
r8f9dx.jpg


#86 fastyacht

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Posted 31 August 2016 - 04:41 PM

That doesn't look like the DOMINION at all. It looks exactly like QUANT but with a catamaran instead of a scow platform.



#87 Steve Clark

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Posted 31 August 2016 - 05:03 PM

Kind of like Kon Tiki, Spaceship One, the Brooklyn Dodgers and an apple.
SHC

#88 Елиfooterz - atefooterz

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Posted 31 August 2016 - 05:20 PM

What i like about the W +I config, is how with a bit of heel on, it makes hunting down your compeditors a lot more interesting.



#89 fastyacht

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Posted 31 August 2016 - 05:30 PM

Brooklyn Dodgers were near the big apple so there is that.



#90 Елиfooterz - atefooterz

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Posted 31 August 2016 - 05:33 PM

Brooklyn Dodgers were near the big apple so there is that.

Kon dodgeappLe1 it is



#91 Doug Lord

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Posted 31 August 2016 - 07:31 PM

Kind of like Kon Tiki, Spaceship One, the Brooklyn Dodgers and an apple.
SHC

 

Thanks-I think.........



#92 Seattle Dinghyer

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Posted 31 August 2016 - 08:44 PM

Dave this is awesome... please let me help promote it on the West Coast when there's a chance.  



#93 Team_GBR

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Posted 01 September 2016 - 02:49 AM

To Steve and Dave - what a great project. i wish you all the best with it. The rig is very clever. Taking the vang loads away makes it far easier to build lighter. One question - it's hard to see for sure, but I don't think I can see any shrouds but I think I see a forestay. Is that an illusion? 

 

Doug

Please stop posting pictures of your toys on threads that are nothing to do with you. It shows an extreme degree of self-importance.



#94 Елиfooterz - atefooterz

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Posted 01 September 2016 - 02:57 AM

To Steve and Dave - what a great project. i wish you all the best with it. The rig is very clever. Taking the vang loads away makes it far easier to build lighter. One question - it's hard to see for sure, but I don't think I can see any shrouds but I think I see a forestay. Is that an illusion? 

 

Doug

Please stop posting pictures of your toys on threads that are nothing to do with you. It shows an extreme degree of self-importance.

I am impressed with the toys aero package, looks like it may be a stealth surface semi  flight optimised design, keep the nose away from dipping in the blue stuff though!



#95 Jethrow

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Posted 01 September 2016 - 03:11 AM


Doug

Please stop posting pictures of your toys on threads that are nothing to do with you. It shows an extreme degree of self-importance.

 

I'm no real fan of the man but it is his thread... :P



#96 High Flow

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Posted 01 September 2016 - 04:17 AM

He can post his toys if he wants to.

#97 Shu

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Posted 01 September 2016 - 04:41 AM

I agree.  Let Doug have his day.  He's been going on and on and on about the people's foiler for years, and now it appears Steve and Dave have truly done it. 

 

I must also agree about the genius of the wishbone rig.  With a multihull the righting moment is higher, and that directly translates to higher leech tension requirements.  I like the simple rig stiffening afforded by the diamond stay as well.  This is really well done and I hope it catchess on.



#98 High Flow

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Posted 01 September 2016 - 07:56 AM

nice models by the way doug.

do you make them yourself?



#99 Wess

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Posted 01 September 2016 - 11:16 AM

Dave/Steve - Will the boat be at the Annapolis show?  Wess



#100 Laurent

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Posted 01 September 2016 - 06:15 PM

To Steve and Dave - what a great project. i wish you all the best with it. The rig is very clever. Taking the vang loads away makes it far easier to build lighter. One question - it's hard to see for sure, but I don't think I can see any shrouds but I think I see a forestay. Is that an illusion? 

 

I had the same question. With the picture, it seems that the mast is standing up by an act of God, or defying the laws of mechanics and material science.

 

What am I missing?






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