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A Class cat v Foiling Moth


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#1 avantgardaclue

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Posted 10 January 2010 - 03:51 PM

Clean said on home page...

Our first event of 2010 is the A-Cat Invitational down in Islamorada, FL starting Monday. These sleek and ultra-efficient cats are some of the sexiest things out there, and until the Moths really got going, there was no singlehander faster - and that battle is still not decided. The Class is every bit as developmental and tweaky as the higher-profile foilers, and filled with some of the best multihull sailors anywhere as well as plenty of fun young guns that rock it at 20+ knots.


Always assumed that the A Class would be faster, now I'm not sure.

What do we reckon?

#2 socalsailor38

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Posted 10 January 2010 - 05:09 PM

in right conditions (i.e. fast enough to foil) I am fairly certain the moth is faster

#3 ACat

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Posted 10 January 2010 - 05:19 PM

There is no question that the Moth has a much higher top speed by as much as 25%. It is hard to get an A up above 22kts and the top speed for the Moth is now just over 30kts with a lot of weekend sailors posting speeds of 28+kts.

Around a race course that is a different story. Comparing average A Cat sailors to average Moth sailors the A's are faster around the course. Both boats have their conditions where one is totally dominant so it is a difficult question to answer. It is really dependent on the wind speed and you could probably find a wind speed the Moth gets faster as the wind gets higher and the A can achieve very high speeds in less wind.

What you need is one of each since they are the two fastest and coolest single handed boats out there.


Clean said on home page...

Our first event of 2010 is the A-Cat Invitational down in Islamorada, FL starting Monday. These sleek and ultra-efficient cats are some of the sexiest things out there, and until the Moths really got going, there was no singlehander faster - and that battle is still not decided. The Class is every bit as developmental and tweaky as the higher-profile foilers, and filled with some of the best multihull sailors anywhere as well as plenty of fun young guns that rock it at 20+ knots.


Always assumed that the A Class would be faster, now I'm not sure.

What do we reckon?



#4 nige

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Posted 10 January 2010 - 05:21 PM

What you need is one of each since they are the two fastest and coolest single handed boats out there.

+1000

#5 aardvark_issues

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Posted 10 January 2010 - 06:19 PM

Without sailing them directly against each other I've not got much of an idea, but from a quick trawl on the web I've found A classes are generally being sailed off around 690, with the 18 footer on 685 and the Bloody Mary this weekend had the Moth rated faster than the 18...
Some handicap races have been won on lower PY's than 600 by some of the top Mothies over here but at the end of the day handicaps are rarely right and always vary with conditions.

#6 SimonN

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Posted 10 January 2010 - 10:12 PM

Does it really matter which is quicker? They are both very cool.

#7 punter

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Posted 11 January 2010 - 01:22 AM

Less than 10 knots, A is faster. Flying a hull at 6 knots, on the wire at 7-8 knots. And you point so much higher upwind. And downwind the moth either has to sail high angles to foil, or lowride.

Above 15 knots, the moth is quicker. It goes deeper downwind at much greater speed. Not quite the same pointing ability upwind, but a couple of knots quicker.

Between 10-15, down to a sailor's ability.

Up until recently I had both so my opinions based on my ability.

#8 huddo

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Posted 11 January 2010 - 07:36 AM

Less than 10 knots, A is faster. Flying a hull at 6 knots, on the wire at 7-8 knots. And you point so much higher upwind. And downwind the moth either has to sail high angles to foil, or lowride.

Above 15 knots, the moth is quicker. It goes deeper downwind at much greater speed. Not quite the same pointing ability upwind, but a couple of knots quicker.

Between 10-15, down to a sailor's ability.

Up until recently I had both so my opinions based on my ability.


punter, stay with it!
what strikes me as to a big diffence is
more about stuff like the moth fits in two travel packs
and the A has to have a trailer...not flight friendly

#9 punter

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Posted 11 January 2010 - 09:04 AM

Less than 10 knots, A is faster. Flying a hull at 6 knots, on the wire at 7-8 knots. And you point so much higher upwind. And downwind the moth either has to sail high angles to foil, or lowride.

Above 15 knots, the moth is quicker. It goes deeper downwind at much greater speed. Not quite the same pointing ability upwind, but a couple of knots quicker.

Between 10-15, down to a sailor's ability.

Up until recently I had both so my opinions based on my ability.


punter, stay with it!
what strikes me as to a big diffence is
more about stuff like the moth fits in two travel packs
and the A has to have a trailer...not flight friendly


Wish I could stay with it, and will probably get another A in the future as they are lovely boats to sail. Only reason I sold is that it is getting little use plus little competition locally, plus new models come out regularly which can cause the value to depreciate quicker than the general age of the boat.

Plus living in Singapore means going overseas for regattas is bloody expensive as no other As to share costs with. 40ft containers aren't cheap, plus the transport costs to/from docks are certainly exxy. Sending the moth air freight solves a lot of these cost problems, only a single 11ft box is required.

#10 bye bye

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Posted 11 January 2010 - 09:23 AM

whats teh competative weight range for each?

#11 The Black Pearl

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Posted 11 January 2010 - 04:58 PM

Had a couple of chances to race along side the A cats at Long Beach. If we ( the Moths) are marginally foiling in say less than 12 knots, then the speed and height the A cats up wind wipes us out. Down range the speed differnetial still isnt great so we cant make it back, and the A cats keep building a lead on us.

If there's more breeze say 15s and up then we have speed and better height (not as high as an A cat) upwind, plus our down range speed and VMG is really coming on. At this point I would say we are quicker, and our advantage builds as the wind increases!

I am sure Craig and the ABYC A cats boys wil have plenty to say about this.....

Ideal weights? Dont know about the A cats but if you look at competitive Moth sailors they seem to range from Si Payne at 67kgs, Bora at 80Kgs and Kevin Hall at 100, all placed in top 10 at Worlds

#12 Amati

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Posted 11 January 2010 - 05:40 PM

75 kg for the A cat is the minimum weight allowed.

#13 ACat

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Posted 11 January 2010 - 06:54 PM

75Kg is the minimum complete boat weight there is no minimum sailor weight. Worlds have been won with sailors ranging from 75kg-90kg.

75 kg for the A cat is the minimum weight allowed.



#14 Amati

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Posted 12 January 2010 - 05:39 AM

75Kg is the minimum complete boat weight there is no minimum sailor weight. Worlds have been won with sailors ranging from 75kg-90kg.

75 kg for the A cat is the minimum weight allowed.


Damn. Forgot about the sailors.

Kind of like pianos and pianists, no?

#15 rft

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Posted 12 January 2010 - 03:03 PM

What you need is one of each since they are the two fastest and coolest single handed boats out there.

+1000


At our Frozen Sheets race on Jan 2nd Mike Lennon sailing his moth off 580 beat a very good F18.

#16 FatimaRules

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Posted 13 January 2010 - 02:37 PM

Only one way to find out.




FIGHT!!!!!!!!!



Or alternatively I'd happily make use of any free A-cats and do some testing. It might take about a year?!

#17 transom

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Posted 15 January 2010 - 07:15 PM

it would be cool to have a mixed regatta, a-cats and moths on the same line, same course for three days, nine races. ( i have neither, but I'm just saying..)

#18 bgulari

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Posted 16 January 2010 - 07:14 AM

Biased but in 10 knots I think a moth would take an a cat uphill and crush downhill.
I have lined up a couple of times

#19 sosoomii

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Posted 16 January 2010 - 09:42 PM

Isn't this thread all a bit Lordesque?

#20 Africat

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Posted 16 January 2010 - 10:30 PM

Isn't this thread all a bit Lordesque?


Not with Lord Bora posting in it! That is, assuming that an American dude from Detroit can be knighted by the Queen of England... :lol:

Seriously, I completely believe that a Moth could be faster than an A-Cat under certain circumstances. I mean, if you've only got foils in the water, your drag is going to be less than any cat. Even if the cat is "doing the wild thing" (sailing on one hull, with the other hull airborne).

Still, I would absolutely love to see a regatta where Moths and A-Cats start together on the same race course! And, of course, you'd need top-notch Moth and A-Cat pilots. Otherwise, it's just going to be the better sailors going faster, regardless of boat.

#21 Africat

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Posted 16 January 2010 - 11:24 PM

FYI: A friend who's not registered here sent me the following message:

In late 2003 or 2004, Rohan Veal raced against a bunch of excellent A class skippers and beat them in 5 of 6 races around a course. He also beat a fleet of F18's.....


Make of it what you will. If true, this validates my theory about the Moth having less drag (when foiling) than an A-Cat (even when doing the wild thing).

I'm stuck with Hobie 14s and 16s for the next few years. So I won't be experiencing either an A-Cat or a Moth in the foreseeable future. In the meantime, I will get out on the water as much as possible and live vicariously, as far as modern boats are concerned. :o

#22 bistros

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Posted 17 January 2010 - 01:33 AM

FYI: A friend who's not registered here sent me the following message:

In late 2003 or 2004, Rohan Veal raced against a bunch of excellent A class skippers and beat them in 5 of 6 races around a course. He also beat a fleet of F18's.....


Make of it what you will. If true, this validates my theory about the Moth having less drag (when foiling) than an A-Cat (even when doing the wild thing).

I'm stuck with Hobie 14s and 16s for the next few years. So I won't be experiencing either an A-Cat or a Moth in the foreseeable future. In the meantime, I will get out on the water as much as possible and live vicariously, as far as modern boats are concerned. :o


Let me answer the original question that started this thread: Who the frig cares?

This whole thread is based on the premise that one boat type is faster than another. It doesn't matter in the slightest.

A-Cat people are looking for an entirely different experience than people foiling Moths. Since real competition is done against similar boats or a handicap, why is the relative speeds of two very different boats a topic worthy of this level of attention?

I know the Northern half of us are in deep freeze and the Southern half is out sailing, but can't we find better things to talk about?

--
Bill

#23 Infinite

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Posted 17 January 2010 - 03:02 AM

Let me answer the original question that started this thread: Who the frig cares?


Exactly. Not to burst any bubbles but if you want the fasted thing powered by wind then go wind surfing.

#24 gui

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Posted 18 January 2010 - 02:44 AM

FYI: A friend who's not registered here sent me the following message:

In late 2003 or 2004, Rohan Veal raced against a bunch of excellent A class skippers and beat them in 5 of 6 races around a course. He also beat a fleet of F18's.....


Make of it what you will. If true, this validates my theory about the Moth having less drag (when foiling) than an A-Cat (even when doing the wild thing).

I'm stuck with Hobie 14s and 16s for the next few years. So I won't be experiencing either an A-Cat or a Moth in the foreseeable future. In the meantime, I will get out on the water as much as possible and live vicariously, as far as modern boats are concerned. :o


Let me answer the original question that started this thread: Who the frig cares?

This whole thread is based on the premise that one boat type is faster than another. It doesn't matter in the slightest.

A-Cat people are looking for an entirely different experience than people foiling Moths. Since real competition is done against similar boats or a handicap, why is the relative speeds of two very different boats a topic worthy of this level of attention?

I know the Northern half of us are in deep freeze and the Southern half is out sailing, but can't we find better things to talk about?

--
Bill


Why do you reply then?
I think it's interesting, especially for isolated fleets that have no clue how quick they're suppose to sail. But infinite could be right, I don't know what dinghy is quicker than a windsurf in anything over 15kts.

#25 bistros

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Posted 18 January 2010 - 03:42 AM

Why do you reply then?
I think it's interesting, especially for isolated fleets that have no clue how quick they're suppose to sail. But infinite could be right, I don't know what dinghy is quicker than a windsurf in anything over 15kts.


Pourquoi? Parce que la question avait bien beaucoup des responses s'il y a des conditions de la voile, even without considering the skill of the helm. In low winds, the A-Cat should dominate. In marginal conditions, it is anyone's game. In high winds, the Moth should be faster. Basically, across a wide variety of conditions, sea states and steady versus unsteady winds, drawing any conclusions is probably statistically impossible.

The question is looking for a straightforward answer, and there isn't one that can be made. Add in helm skill and it becomes even more impossible to make a determination about actual boat potential.

--
Bill

#26 gui

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Posted 18 January 2010 - 05:01 AM

Why do you reply then?
I think it's interesting, especially for isolated fleets that have no clue how quick they're suppose to sail. But infinite could be right, I don't know what dinghy is quicker than a windsurf in anything over 15kts.


Pourquoi? Parce que la question avait bien beaucoup des responses s'il y a des conditions de la voile, even without considering the skill of the helm. In low winds, the A-Cat should dominate. In marginal conditions, it is anyone's game. In high winds, the Moth should be faster. Basically, across a wide variety of conditions, sea states and steady versus unsteady winds, drawing any conclusions is probably statistically impossible.

The question is looking for a straightforward answer, and there isn't one that can be made. Add in helm skill and it becomes even more impossible to make a determination about actual boat potential.

--
Bill


Gees, and now you're swearing!
Spring where are you? We're getting crazy down here.

#27 JRC808

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Posted 18 January 2010 - 05:13 AM

uhh, price wise a cheap moth cost what $12,000 and an a cat cost how much cheaper?

#28 ejpoulsen

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Posted 18 January 2010 - 05:21 AM

Let me answer the original question that started this thread: Who the frig cares?

This whole thread is based on the premise that one boat type is faster than another. It doesn't matter in the slightest.

A-Cat people are looking for an entirely different experience than people foiling Moths. Since real competition is done against similar boats or a handicap, why is the relative speeds of two very different boats a topic worthy of this level of attention?

I know the Northern half of us are in deep freeze and the Southern half is out sailing, but can't we find better things to talk about?

--
Bill


Agree, who cares, it doesn't really matter.

BUT, I disagree about the people/experience--hanging around both, there seems a lot in common between the folks who like As and the Mothies. Both groups/boats:
-tend to be techie
-like box rule/formula as opposed to strict OD
-tinkerers
-some of the highest skilled racers in all of sailing
-trickle up innovations
-apparent wind machines
-sailor experiences flight (either hiking while foiling or trapping flying a hull)
-fast fast fast
-light light light

[bottom line on speed comparison FWIT: A-cat faster in low wind and easier to sail fast; Moth much faster top end and harder to sail.]

#29 SimonN

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Posted 18 January 2010 - 07:12 AM

FYI: A friend who's not registered here sent me the following message:

In late 2003 or 2004, Rohan Veal raced against a bunch of excellent A class skippers and beat them in 5 of 6 races around a course. He also beat a fleet of F18's.....


Make of it what you will.

What I make of it is that you friend isn't so much not registered as banned from posting here. It's funny how he manages to get his bullshit posted nevertheless. (Just for the record, after Rohan had posted it on his blog it was found that they were sailing different courses!)

Having said that, it was 2006 and Moths are now sigfnificantly faster. Today, I suspect that once up on foils, a Moth will take out both an A class and F18 cat, without too much difficulty.

#30 punter

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Posted 18 January 2010 - 09:58 AM

Biased but in 10 knots I think a moth would take an a cat uphill and crush downhill.
I have lined up a couple of times


Well you are Cat 4 :P

#31 wind_apparent

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Posted 18 January 2010 - 02:23 PM

Let me answer the original question that started this thread: Who the frig cares?


Exactly. Not to burst any bubbles but if you want the fasted thing powered by wind then go wind surfing.


Iceboats?

#32 TeamFugu

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Posted 18 January 2010 - 02:51 PM

I think the best thing is to have one of each. One skiff, one Moth, one A Cat, one windsurfer, one kiteboard, one cooler full of suds, and one harem to keep you warm when not on the water. :P

#33 skiffboy3

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Posted 18 January 2010 - 08:10 PM

I think the best thing is to have one of each. One skiff, one Moth, one A Cat, one windsurfer, one kiteboard, one cooler full of suds, and one harem to keep you warm when not on the water. :P

AGREED

#34 Infinite

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Posted 21 January 2010 - 05:19 AM

I think the best thing is to have one of each. One skiff, one Moth, one A Cat, one windsurfer, one kiteboard, one cooler full of suds, and one harem to keep you warm when not on the water. :P


When you put it that way you should just skip the boats and go right for the herem.

#35 Waynemarlow

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Posted 21 January 2010 - 12:03 PM

in right conditions (i.e. fast enough to foil) I am fairly certain the moth is faster

Last summer at Datchet UK a pretty good Mothie turned up for the evening race, over about 1 1/2 hours about 5 laps of a trangular course in about 6 - 10 knots of wind. The Moth smoked the cat fleet lapping all but 2 F16's.

However its not really a very fair comparison as the F16's are really struggling to fly a hull continuosly in those conditions and triangular courses are our worst sailing course. I also suspect the guy was a bit of an ace against Mid pack sailors as he could fly the Moth virtually the whole way around the course apart from the occassional dip when he tacked. The other interesting thing was the crazy angles he took which almost always meant he was in clean air, the F16 is only as fast as the line of lasers ahead sometimes in short triangles.

Never the less I was impressed as the guy was very fast in somewhat marginal conditions, enough to make me think about building one, sadly there just isn't enough about locally to learn from.

#36 aardvark_issues

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Posted 21 January 2010 - 01:22 PM

Last summer at Datchet UK

Never the less I was impressed as the guy was very fast in somewhat marginal conditions, enough to make me think about building one, sadly there just isn't enough about locally to learn from.


Like the 10 odd boats over the motorway at Queen Mary? I'm sure they would love to give you a hand getting going...

#37 Waynemarlow

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Posted 21 January 2010 - 07:05 PM

Last summer at Datchet UK

Never the less I was impressed as the guy was very fast in somewhat marginal conditions, enough to make me think about building one, sadly there just isn't enough about locally to learn from.


Like the 10 odd boats over the motorway at Queen Mary? I'm sure they would love to give you a hand getting going...


Interesting, my understanding they were mainly non foilers and they weren't very active but that was 12 months or so ago.




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