1343 replies to this topic

[PIL007]

Spot on RM...I couldn't agree more
So who actually owns it now...? Insurance...?

[Icedtea]

Spot on RM...I couldn't agree more
So who actually owns it now...? Insurance...?

The insurance company until the claim is settled I would think... which is unlikely to ever happen, they'll prob just pay the salvagers and the payout and bail.

['moondance44]

Spot on RM...I couldn't agree more
So who actually owns it now...? Insurance...?

In order to finish first, first you have to finish.
There were no money constraints the first 5-6 races it couldnt get around the course
and something different broke about every time out.
The rest is just conjecturing about Richard Bransons project budgeting, (which I would guess is rarely underfunded). It was completely reconfigured under GD (whcih I dont have to guess about being underfunded or not - no budget constraints). It then won a few light air Caribbean races, and a few months later the keel fell off just missing killing dozens in the Irish Sea by a few hours.

Yes, Spot on. She was a fine yacht. RIP

[Rail Meat]

Spot on RM...I couldn't agree more
So who actually owns it now...? Insurance...?

In order to finish first, first you have to finish.
There were no money constraints the first 5-6 races it couldnt get around the course
and something different broke about every time out.
The rest is just conjecturing about Richard Bransons project budgeting, (which I would guess is rarely underfunded). It was completely reconfigured under GD (whcih I dont have to guess about being underfunded or not - no budget constraints). It then won a few light air Caribbean races, and a few months later the keel fell off just missing killing dozens in the Irish Sea by a few hours.

Yes, Spot on. She was a fine yacht. RIP

Umm, yeah.... you are wrong. Sorry.

The facts:

• April 17, 2008 - launched
• June 24, 2008 - line honours in the Newport Bermuda race with no particular damage
• June 29, 2008 - depart on a Transat record attempt. Broke the dagger board in the first evening when bearing away going ~25 knots of boat speed. Unclear if the break was due to exceeding the engineered loads of the board or striking something but the board was pushed aft in the trunk indicating that it might have hit something. Had it been due to loads, the break probably would have been outboard.
• July / August 2008 - boat is on the hard at Newport Shipyard
• October 22, 2008 - departed on a Transat record attempt branded Virgin Atlantic and with Branson, son and daughter aboard. Diverted to Bermuda after mainsail ripped, and with prospects of dying breeze due to high pressure ridge. Reports from the boat are that the Branson clan are seasick and not having a very fun time of it.
• Fall 2008 - boat is delivered to Crackerboy, FL and put on the hard
• March 2010 - boat is commissioned and launched. Branding is returned to Speedboat, modest refit
• June 2010 - boat wins line honors in Newport Bermuda Race. No particular damages
• Summer / Fall 2010 - boat is in the water at Newport Shipyard
• October 2010 - George David charters boat. Boat is delivered to Crackerboy
• October 2010 to January 2011 - boat undergoes extensive refit at Crackerboy. Rebranded as Rambler 100
• February 2011 - boat wins line honors at the Pineapple Cup
• February 2011 - boat wins line honors (and record) at the RORC 600
• March 2011 - boat wins Les Voiles St Barts
• April 2011 - boat takes line honors (and record) in the Annapolis Newport Race
• May 2011 - boat takes line honors (and record) for the Block Island Race
• June 2011 - boat takes line honors (and record) for the Newport to Lizard Transatlantic
• August 2011 - boat drops keel and capsizes during the Fastnet

The hedge fund that the owner had co-founded in 2002 lost 48% of its value during the short term credit crisis that was occuring during the first, second and third quarters of 2008. Lehman's collapse in September of 2008 was the coup de grace, and as a result the hedge fund in question lost 78% of its AUM. Even before Lehman the owner left the fund, right at the beginning of June in 2008. It is not very difficult conjecture to assume that he was faced with significantly different economic circumstances as well as massive distractions in 2008 and 2009 that impacted the Speedboat program. The word was already out concerning the program's economics in late July of 2008, with the payroll slashed following the aborted Transat attempt. It was only Branson's charter that allowed crew to be hired back in August and September of 2008. Earlier in 2008 there had been talk of the Maxi Worlds in Sardinia, the Middle Sea Race and then the 2008 Sidney Hobart but all of that chater died in August and was instead back filled with the Branson charter. Once that attempt failed, the boat was mothballed.

As a result those financial realities, it is hardly suprising that very little money was invested in the boat after the 2008 Newport Bermuda race. The boat went to Newport and had its board repaired along with some related hull damage, but otherwise nothing else was done. Branson investment was minimal, with no refit performed in August to October of 2010 other than the Virgin Atlantic branding and a new branded code sail. That is hardly suprising. Branson is a master at maximizing publicity and minimizing spending. He is very, very thrifty.

No work at all was performed in 2009. In 2010 there was a modest refit involving changing the branding back to Speedboat, a new main and a few other smaller bits. Other than the fact that everything on a 100 foot boat costs a fortune, it was a very modest set of changes and costs.

So by the fall of 2010 you had a 2.5 year old boat that had been in two races and received virtually no investment other than basic maintenance. She was still using virtually the entire sail package that had been delivered with the boat when she was launched. All that changed when George David chartered the boat. Led by Mick Harvey, there was a massive refit. New sail plan with smaller mains and larger head sails. New sail package. New rigging package. New bow sprit. Updated deck hardware in some instances. New branding. Plenty of other stuff.


As for the misguided comment about something breaking about every time out... wrong. Something "broke" on 3 races. One dagger board, one mainsail and the keel. Coming in its second real outing, the dagger board could have been from a UFO, or could be engineering and teething pains. The main sail is frankly a operating hazard in any boat, and they are hardly the first boat to suffer from a torn mainsail. Once she was in George David's hands, there was precious few issues with the boat until the keel dropped off, which was obviously significant and unfortunately catestrophic.

The boat's performance in the 2008 and 2010 Bermuda races was fantastic. The two abortive Transat attempts in 2008 were a disappointment to her fans and certainly her owner, but she is hardly the first boat to have to pull out of a race or two. Unfortunately, with such a short track record and such high expectations it is not surprising that people were down on the boat. But George David hardly has anything to be embarassed about. Six signficant races in six months during the first half of 2011 and the team won every single one of those races.

So your statements about money constraints, breakage, and race record are all incorrect. At least you are correct about the lost keel. I stick by my original statement: this was a fanastic, big, complex and expensive boat launched into unfortunate economic circumstances that led to an underwhelming opportunity to prove herself. She got a new lease on life with George David and we were lucky to see some of her potential before she unfortunately lost her keel.

['moondance44]

Man, you are trying way to hard. I dont find it that interesting that a brand new 100 foot custom boat is winning line honors as it was designed to do over, and in some cases over TP52s and and a donated R/P 65 with kids crewing. Thats just boring
2011 Annapolis it lost to Beau Geste
2011 Pineapple - 3rd
2010 Bermuda 3rd (aka DFL)
but they won line honors!

They claimed on their facebook page they did break the Palm Beach / Newport record (was there such a thing?)
power assisted of course

But as Wes says, it did make the podium so I guess its not a shitter after all.

[Rail Meat]

Man, you are trying way to hard. I dont find it that interesting that a brand new 100 foot custom boat is winning line honors as it was designed to do over, and in some cases over TP52s and and a donated R/P 65 with kids crewing. Thats just boring
2011 Annapolis it lost to Beau Geste
2011 Pineapple - 3rd
2010 Bermuda 3rd (aka DFL)
but they won line honors!

They claimed on their facebook page they did break the Palm Beach / Newport record (was there such a thing?)
power assisted of course

But as Wes says, it did make the podium so I guess its not a shitter after all.

You think that is "trying hard"? You have a pretty lazy perspective....although you are at least consistent with your sloppy approach to the argument.

['moondance44]

Man, you are trying way to hard. I dont find it that interesting that a brand new 100 foot custom boat is winning line honors as it was designed to do over, and in some cases over TP52s and and a donated R/P 65 with kids crewing. Thats just boring
2011 Annapolis it lost to Beau Geste
2011 Pineapple - 3rd
2010 Bermuda 3rd (aka DFL)
but they won line honors!

They claimed on their facebook page they did break the Palm Beach / Newport record (was there such a thing?)
power assisted of course

But as Wes says, it did make the podium so I guess its not a shitter after all.

You think that is "trying hard"? You have a pretty lazy perspective....although you are at least consistent with your sloppy approach to the argument.

Forgot to add.. Bermuda 2008 (2.5 months pre Leman Brothers) - 3rd in class ORR. Lost corrected by 7 hours to a Beneteau 36.7

2010 IRC - 5th in class, 58th overall, but they did WIN line honors over Beau Geste by 6 mins.

[Rail Meat]

Man, you are trying way to hard. I dont find it that interesting that a brand new 100 foot custom boat is winning line honors as it was designed to do over, and in some cases over TP52s and and a donated R/P 65 with kids crewing. Thats just boring
2011 Annapolis it lost to Beau Geste
2011 Pineapple - 3rd
2010 Bermuda 3rd (aka DFL)
but they won line honors!

They claimed on their facebook page they did break the Palm Beach / Newport record (was there such a thing?)
power assisted of course

But as Wes says, it did make the podium so I guess its not a shitter after all.

You think that is "trying hard"? You have a pretty lazy perspective....although you are at least consistent with your sloppy approach to the argument.

Forgot to add.. Bermuda 2008 (2.5 months pre Leman Brothers) - 3rd in class ORR. Lost corrected by 7 hours to a Beneteau 36.7

2010 IRC - 5th in class, 58th overall, but they did WIN line honors over Beau Geste by 6 mins.

And 10 days after the owner left his firm and 6 months after the credit markets collapsed which lead to economic woes that limited his ability to invest in or campaign his shiny new toy.

So when you are proven to be wrong about available investment in the boat, proven to be wrong about the breakage, and proven to be wrong about the boat's speed you fall back on a corrected time argument? Hilarious. You really think that any one involved in that boat ever cared about IRC, ORR or any other handicap finish? That is laughable.

I don't really care if you like Speedboat. Trash talk it all you like. Just don't pretend that your statements have any basis in fact.

[Left Hook]

The only comment I have to make on this one is that the boat wasn't designed as a handicap winner, rather as a monster which would break race/distance records and take line honors trophy's. Indeed one could make the same "shitter" argument about most line honors boats that have slower racers correct out over them. Wild oats, Rambler 90, Alfa Romeo and Leopard regularly get corrected over by slower boats sailing in a different weather/tide system. Whether Speedmoneybler 100 went to great lengths to fulfill the "distance records" part of the design brief is dubious but in other regards it's existence was a success.

Edit: RM took part of my point.

[Icedtea]

Man, you are trying way to hard. I dont find it that interesting that a brand new 100 foot custom boat is winning line honors as it was designed to do over, and in some cases over TP52s and and a donated R/P 65 with kids crewing. Thats just boring
2011 Annapolis it lost to Beau Geste
2011 Pineapple - 3rd
2010 Bermuda 3rd (aka DFL)
but they won line honors!

They claimed on their facebook page they did break the Palm Beach / Newport record (was there such a thing?)
power assisted of course

But as Wes says, it did make the podium so I guess its not a shitter after all.

You think that is "trying hard"? You have a pretty lazy perspective....although you are at least consistent with your sloppy approach to the argument.

Forgot to add.. Bermuda 2008 (2.5 months pre Leman Brothers) - 3rd in class ORR. Lost corrected by 7 hours to a Beneteau 36.7

2010 IRC - 5th in class, 58th overall, but they did WIN line honors over Beau Geste by 6 mins.

What conditions were these races won in?

['moondance44]

Man, you are trying way to hard. I dont find it that interesting that a brand new 100 foot custom boat is winning line honors as it was designed to do over, and in some cases over TP52s and and a donated R/P 65 with kids crewing. Thats just boring
2011 Annapolis it lost to Beau Geste
2011 Pineapple - 3rd
2010 Bermuda 3rd (aka DFL)
but they won line honors!

They claimed on their facebook page they did break the Palm Beach / Newport record (was there such a thing?)
power assisted of course

But as Wes says, it did make the podium so I guess its not a shitter after all.

You think that is "trying hard"? You have a pretty lazy perspective....although you are at least consistent with your sloppy approach to the argument.

Forgot to add.. Bermuda 2008 (2.5 months pre Leman Brothers) - 3rd in class ORR. Lost corrected by 7 hours to a Beneteau 36.7

2010 IRC - 5th in class, 58th overall, but they did WIN line honors over Beau Geste by 6 mins.

And 10 days after the owner left his firm and 6 months after the credit markets collapsed which lead to economic woes that limited his ability to invest in or campaign his shiny new toy.

So when you are proven to be wrong about available investment in the boat, proven to be wrong about the breakage, and proven to be wrong about the boat's speed you fall back on a corrected time argument? Hilarious. You really think that any one involved in that boat ever cared about IRC, ORR or any other handicap finish? That is laughable.

I don't really care if you like Speedboat. Trash talk it all you like. Just don't pretend that your statements have any basis in fact.

Proven to be wrong? You act like you have access to these guys tax returns.

If they dont care about ratings, why enter races? Why not just take their time point to point and enter the Guiness Book of Records? Someone will come along next year with a 102 footer that is faster and get 'line honors' against boats half their size. Boring.

Wes, You were very proud of your record breaking podium finish in the Stamford Overnite on a 66 footer. So your point of view is well taken.

Examples of shitters:
Teignmouth Electron
The Cone of Silence
Titanic
Any J105
Speedboat


Non Shtter record breakers:
British Steel
Mari Cha III, IV, V
Dorade
Bolero
Boomerang
Spray
Nina, Pinta, Santa Maria
Hustler













.

[Skiddy]

Proven to be wrong? You act like you have access to these guys tax returns.

If they dont care about ratings, why enter races? Why not just take their time point to point and enter the Guiness Book of Records? Someone will come along next year with a 102 footer that is faster and get 'line honors' against boats half their size. Boring.

Wes, You were very proud of your record breaking podium finish in the Stamford Overnite on a 66 footer. So your point of view is well taken.

Examples of shitters:
Teignmouth Electron
The Cone of Silence
Titanic
Any J105
Speedboat


Non Shtter record breakers:
British Steel
Mari Cha III, IV, V
Dorade
Bolero
Boomerang
Spray
Nina, Pinta, Santa Maria
Hustler

Give it a rest, mate. Some people here (including Mike and myself) have worked with Alex or are in the same field, so we have a pretty good idea about his situation. The facts are what they are - and everything that Mike has posted is correct.
The boat was designed and built with the express objective to win line honors and set race (not point-to-point) records. She certainly accomplished that up until the Fastnet.

[Icedtea]

The only comment I have to make on this one is that the boat wasn't designed as a handicap winner, rather as a monster which would break race/distance records and take line honors trophy's. Indeed one could make the same "shitter" argument about most line honors boats that have slower racers correct out over them. Wild oats, Rambler 90, Alfa Romeo and Leopard regularly get corrected over by slower boats sailing in a different weather/tide system. Whether Speedmoneybler 100 went to great lengths to fulfill the "distance records" part of the design brief is dubious but in other regards it's existence was a success.

Edit: RM took part of my point.

Agreed, it's not unusual for the bigger boats to be handicapped out by smaller, the round the Island race this year was almost won by a Contessa 26

[corkob]

Is Alex Jackson still sailing? Seems to have had a torrid time of it for the past few years.

[Jason AUS]

Examples of shitters:
The Cone of Silence

You fucking what now?

[Essex]

Mari Cha V ????

[Left Hook]

Is Alex Jackson still sailing? Seems to have had a torrid time of it for the past few years.

Has been racing his Melges 32 by the name of "leenabarca"

[Swanno (Ohf Shore)]

Examples of shitters:
The Cone of Silence

You fucking what now?

clearly shows what we're working with here huh.

[thetruth]

Hey Ohf Shore you have a few years but do you think AUS can organise an entry? A lot of legends now

[GybeSet®]

an entry in what?

note this is a maxi thread

[Jason AUS]

Examples of shitters:
The Cone of Silence

You fucking what now?

clearly shows what we're working with here huh.

What sort of person bags the CONE?

[equivocator]

I don't know much, but IMO there's no reason why Speed boat can't be cranked up with new mechanical, electrical & electronic systems, and get back out there. However, I think they should go to Reichel Pugh for a better canting system, since so far (touch wood) their boats have not had significant failures in their canting systems.

[Mojounwin]

There is some big money needed to rebuild Speedy and I doubt the costs would be that far below a new build. With the financial crash the market value for these toys I bet has taken a beating. Running costs are massive and finding a sponsor to pay for that these days is tough. No doubt a rebuild is possible, but in reality it's hard to see that happening.

My guess it's staying in the shed until the insurance battles are finalised and then it will be chainsawed. I hope I'm wrong.

They must be paying a fortune in shed rental.

Cheers
Mojo

[corkob]

When boats such as Speedboat are built, is it on the basis that they can be chartered to the likes of Virgin or whomever in order to break records and are they expected to pay for themselves.

[umpire]

There is some big money needed to rebuild Speedy and I doubt the costs would be that far below a new build. With the financial crash the market value for these toys I bet has taken a beating. Running costs are massive and finding a sponsor to pay for that these days is tough. No doubt a rebuild is possible, but in reality it's hard to see that happening.

My guess it's staying in the shed until the insurance battles are finalised and then it will be chainsawed. I hope I'm wrong.

They must be paying a fortune in shed rental.

Cheers
Mojo

Would have thought that the rental must be huge by know, she been there a year and takes up half a shed. Still I expect Endeavour are happy

[mad]

When boats such as Speedboat are built, is it on the basis that they can be chartered to the likes of Virgin or whomever in order to break records and are they expected to pay for themselves.

Wrong, there's no way that boat could ever pay its own way from charter fees.

[Ballast Technician]

When boats such as Speedboat are built, is it on the basis that they can be chartered to the likes of Virgin or whomever in order to break records and are they expected to pay for themselves.

Wrong, there's no way that boat could ever pay its own way from charter fees.

Indeed, not even Leopard (which has been pimped out more than an aging hooker) covered even its running costs - let alone pay for itself.
Bottom line is: These boats are expensive toys and even if some money can be made from charters, sponsorships, etc., the owner still generally foots most of the bill.

[equivocator]

Based on another thread, it sounds like a good project for Sid Fischer.

[mad]

Based on another thread, it sounds like a good project for Sid Fischer.

No way Sid will front the bill for that one, not even if the bits were free and shipped to the door.

[Swanno (Ohf Shore)]

Hey Ohf Shore you have a few years but do you think AUS can organise an entry? A lot of legends now

Do you even know what you're talking about in this instance?

[mr_ryano]

I don't know much, but IMO there's no reason why Speed boat can't be cranked up with new mechanical, electrical & electronic systems, and get back out there. However, I think they should go to Reichel Pugh for a better canting system, since so far (touch wood) their boats have not had significant failures in their canting systems.

There was nothing wrong with the cant system. Fatigue failure of the keel strut was the issue

[tekwa]

I don't know much, but IMO there's no reason why Speed boat can't be cranked up with new mechanical, electrical & electronic systems, and get back out there. However, I think they should go to Reichel Pugh for a better canting system, since so far (touch wood) their boats have not had significant failures in their canting systems.

There was nothing wrong with the cant system. Fatigue failure of the keel strut was the issue

Which was an I beam profile designed by JK

[moody frog]

I don't know much, but IMO there's no reason why Speed boat can't be cranked up with new mechanical, electrical & electronic systems, and get back out there. However, I think they should go to Reichel Pugh for a better canting system, since so far (touch wood) their boats have not had significant failures in their canting systems.

There was nothing wrong with the cant system. Fatigue failure of the keel strut was the issue

Which was an I beam profile designed by JK

Edit: 3 years old, x thousand miles, I beam profile designed by JK

[Francis Vaughan]

Three years, mostly doing nothing or in the shed. A few races, a few thousand miles. Critical element of boat that will lead to catastrophic loss of vessel fails. This isn't what you expect.

In fairness, it was the attempt to fix the keel that killed the boat. But that raises the question - why did it need a repair? Well, because there was a fatigue crack. And the whole thing unravels to the use of a fabricated keel strut and questions about just how a fatigue crack could develop so quickly. Although a bit of a generalisation, fabricated keel struts have not had a happy history. There is a reason the VO70 prohibits them, and requires a solid milled section. I'm not sure that a keel section is repairable under any circumstances if a crack develops. Cracks are seriously bad news in anything like a stressed keel section. Stress corrosion can see the crack propagate extraordinarily quickly. And welding a crack in this environment is just never going to work, the weld metal is never as strong, and the heat will also affect the metallurgy of the surrounding steel adversely. It wasn't so much that the repair was botched, but that the repair was probably doomed from the outset.

We still await the final report, but I'm going to bet there will be a long trail of mistakes and blame. Starting with the design of the section through to whoever authorised the repair, and everyone in between.

[dumper]

when will the final report come out?

[nq66]

when will the final report come out?

When it is finished you can read it and not before?!

[pominfrance]

When boats such as Speedboat are built, is it on the basis that they can be chartered to the likes of Virgin or whomever in order to break records and are they expected to pay for themselves.

wow. spectacular bollox. really, you build a boat it can pay for itself. which boats do you know have ever done that?

[Francis Vaughan]

About the only way you could make a money driven case for something like Speedboat would be if you have appropriate tax laws to allow writedowns for loss making enterprises across your businesses, and you have a very creative accountant. It still doesn't pay for it, because you only save the tax rate times your costs. But it is amazing what sort of justifications people can come up with in order to buy a boat.

"Honest, we really thought we could lease out the boat and make a profit, but it turns out there aren't enough insane billionaires to make it work. But can we still claim the loss?"

[moody frog]

Three years, mostly doing nothing or in the shed. A few races, a few thousand miles. Critical element of boat that will lead to catastrophic loss of vessel fails. This isn't what you expect.

In fairness, it was the attempt to fix the keel that killed the boat. But that raises the question - why did it need a repair? Well, because there was a fatigue crack. And the whole thing unravels to the use of a fabricated keel strut and questions about just how a fatigue crack could develop so quickly. Although a bit of a generalisation, fabricated keel struts have not had a happy history. There is a reason the VO70 prohibits them, and requires a solid milled section. I'm not sure that a keel section is repairable under any circumstances if a crack develops. Cracks are seriously bad news in anything like a stressed keel section. Stress corrosion can see the crack propagate extraordinarily quickly. And welding a crack in this environment is just never going to work, the weld metal is never as strong, and the heat will also affect the metallurgy of the surrounding steel adversely. It wasn't so much that the repair was botched, but that the repair was probably doomed from the outset.

We still await the final report, but I'm going to bet there will be a long trail of mistakes and blame. Starting with the design of the section through to whoever authorised the repair, and everyone in between.

Somehow the point I wanted to make: history of fabricated-steel canting-keels is apalling, and from my rather good knowledge of that history, nobody has yet come to identify and master the hiccups, not only JK.

Of course welds are suspect points and repairing an already cracked keel is taking a huge risk insurers would stare at.

The rule of thumb that seems to have developed in the Open 60s circuit is that such a keel should be changed after 25 to 30.000 NM.
Seat of the pants approach also led people to some specific manufacturers who are not specially the most famous ones, some of which have a pretty bad "results" sheet.

Now besides the scarce obvious mistakes, there are a lot of unanswered questions on the known cases. Designers are making their best endeavours, Owen-Clarke for one put a lot of time and effort to come down to the bottom of things, be it construction or corrosion.

Some problems are also inherent to canting keels, the complex construction of the pivot attachment is necessarily extremely close to the most stressed area.

Full time maintenance and multiple regular checks are the only current answer, something which Speedboat ill-fated program may have lacked, idle she laid, most of the time, but in which condition and with what mainteance ?

Of course, cost-apart, a keel milled from a steel-block is close to ideal - this is what Mich Desj has chosen for his 50' OD, where trouble-chasing is a requisite.

[umpire]

In fairness, it was the attempt to fix the keel that killed the boat. But that raises the question - why did it need a repair? Well, because there was a fatigue crack.

To say nothing of coming to a grinding halt in Chesapeake Bay and hitting something in the Transat race

[Rail Meat]

Three years, mostly doing nothing or in the shed. A few races, a few thousand miles. Critical element of boat that will lead to catastrophic loss of vessel fails. This isn't what you expect.

In fairness, it was the attempt to fix the keel that killed the boat. But that raises the question - why did it need a repair? Well, because there was a fatigue crack. And the whole thing unravels to the use of a fabricated keel strut and questions about just how a fatigue crack could develop so quickly. Although a bit of a generalisation, fabricated keel struts have not had a happy history. There is a reason the VO70 prohibits them, and requires a solid milled section. I'm not sure that a keel section is repairable under any circumstances if a crack develops. Cracks are seriously bad news in anything like a stressed keel section. Stress corrosion can see the crack propagate extraordinarily quickly. And welding a crack in this environment is just never going to work, the weld metal is never as strong, and the heat will also affect the metallurgy of the surrounding steel adversely. It wasn't so much that the repair was botched, but that the repair was probably doomed from the outset.

We still await the final report, but I'm going to bet there will be a long trail of mistakes and blame. Starting with the design of the section through to whoever authorised the repair, and everyone in between.

Somehow the point I wanted to make: history of fabricated-steel canting-keels is apalling, and from my rather good knowledge of that history, nobody has yet come to identify and master the hiccups, not only JK.

Of course welds are suspect points and repairing an already cracked keel is taking a huge risk insurers would stare at.

The rule of thumb that seems to have developed in the Open 60s circuit is that such a keel should be changed after 25 to 30.000 NM.
Seat of the pants approach also led people to some specific manufacturers who are not specially the most famous ones, some of which have a pretty bad "results" sheet.

Now besides the scarce obvious mistakes, there are a lot of unanswered questions on the known cases. Designers are making their best endeavours, Owen-Clarke for one put a lot of time and effort to come down to the bottom of things, be it construction or corrosion.

Some problems are also inherent to canting keels, the complex construction of the pivot attachment is necessarily extremely close to the most stressed area.

Full time maintenance and multiple regular checks are the only current answer, something which Speedboat ill-fated program may have lacked, idle she laid, most of the time, but in which condition and with what mainteance ?

Of course, cost-apart, a keel milled from a steel-block is close to ideal - this is what Mich Desj has chosen for his 50' OD, where trouble-chasing is a requisite.

Non-destructive testing every 10,000 miles or so. Ultrasound and XRay. Replacement is more like 70,0000 or 80,000. However, that it quite dependent on the types of miles and any history of issues.

There are also several different ways to fabricate a fin, including the I beam style on Speedboat and then a box section type.

This issue is going to become more important and problematic as more boats with fabricated fins reach the second hand market. Those second and third owners may be less familiar with the maintenance program for a fabricated fin.

[Lostmydetailsagain]

Personally I think the issue lies more with choosing a material that has notoriously poor fatigue properties. I mean I love 17-4 but would never contemplate using it in this particular application.

I really do not want to go on and speculate (so this bit probably does not apply to this particular case, at least that is not the intent) but in general terms re-welding precision hardened structures and subsequent welding commonly lead to unpredictable behaviour of the structure (that is in material-testing conditions).

With regards to the photos of the rig bits, thanks. Still not a big fan of the glueing two shells together but that is for another topic. In general I just hope that the owners involved in the more experimental side of yacht racing don't get put off too much by lousy advise and egomania. I know I mostly disagree with the directions being pushed by some whereas I'm a big fan of others but that is how we move forward and its much better than sailing offshore OD

[moody frog]

Three years, mostly doing nothing or in the shed. A few races, a few thousand miles. Critical element of boat that will lead to catastrophic loss of vessel fails. This isn't what you expect.

In fairness, it was the attempt to fix the keel that killed the boat. But that raises the question - why did it need a repair? Well, because there was a fatigue crack. And the whole thing unravels to the use of a fabricated keel strut and questions about just how a fatigue crack could develop so quickly. Although a bit of a generalisation, fabricated keel struts have not had a happy history. There is a reason the VO70 prohibits them, and requires a solid milled section. I'm not sure that a keel section is repairable under any circumstances if a crack develops. Cracks are seriously bad news in anything like a stressed keel section. Stress corrosion can see the crack propagate extraordinarily quickly. And welding a crack in this environment is just never going to work, the weld metal is never as strong, and the heat will also affect the metallurgy of the surrounding steel adversely. It wasn't so much that the repair was botched, but that the repair was probably doomed from the outset.

We still await the final report, but I'm going to bet there will be a long trail of mistakes and blame. Starting with the design of the section through to whoever authorised the repair, and everyone in between.

Somehow the point I wanted to make: history of fabricated-steel canting-keels is apalling, and from my rather good knowledge of that history, nobody has yet come to identify and master the hiccups, not only JK.

Of course welds are suspect points and repairing an already cracked keel is taking a huge risk insurers would stare at.

The rule of thumb that seems to have developed in the Open 60s circuit is that such a keel should be changed after 25 to 30.000 NM.
Seat of the pants approach also led people to some specific manufacturers who are not specially the most famous ones, some of which have a pretty bad "results" sheet.

Now besides the scarce obvious mistakes, there are a lot of unanswered questions on the known cases. Designers are making their best endeavours, Owen-Clarke for one put a lot of time and effort to come down to the bottom of things, be it construction or corrosion.

Some problems are also inherent to canting keels, the complex construction of the pivot attachment is necessarily extremely close to the most stressed area.

Full time maintenance and multiple regular checks are the only current answer, something which Speedboat ill-fated program may have lacked, idle she laid, most of the time, but in which condition and with what mainteance ?

Of course, cost-apart, a keel milled from a steel-block is close to ideal - this is what Mich Desj has chosen for his 50' OD, where trouble-chasing is a requisite.

Non-destructive testing every 10,000 miles or so. Ultrasound and XRay. Replacement is more like 70,0000 or 80,000. However, that it quite dependent on the types of miles and any history of issues.

There are also several different ways to fabricate a fin, including the I beam style on Speedboat and then a box section type.

This issue is going to become more important and problematic as more boats with fabricated fins reach the second hand market. Those second and third owners may be less familiar with the maintenance program for a fabricated fin.

NDT of course, although it takes (took) time for it to become an accepted routine.
Dependent of the type of miles, yes ! Open 60's (my exemple) have a strong chance that the next race after 40000 miles is going to be tough and 24000 milles
Both types have shown their own specific problems and...mysteries.

+ 1 on the conclusion.

[umpire]

Time to ask the question again. Anyone heard anything?

[mad]

Guessing as we still haven't heard anything about Bounder after 5-6 years, we have a looong time to wait for any new news.

[GybeSet®]

Time to ask the question again. Anyone heard anything?

for a moment there i thought i was in the 'planes from Burma' thread
whew

[DickDastardly]

Sean Langman talking up a major new project...if you owned a boatyard it would be a good buy...

[GybeSet®]

he was talking up the same project 9 years ago, it's all in here

[richiec]

Gybeset. In all these years, these are possibly two of your best, most chuckle inducing posts..

[DickDastardly]

he was talking up the same project 9 years ago, it's all in here

ah yes, the canting deck project...

No I think he means Speedbler this time...

[point]

Speedboat outbound from Gosport and headed downunder via NZ, Bell's the front but it all sounds a little Croakie. Snapped yesterday care of Volvo 60 Racing - http://www.facebook....vo60yachtracing

[Left Hook]

Ho-lee-crap...could this be the Ramspeedblermoney(romeo?) 100 vs. Oats matchup that we missed out on in 2011?

[PIL007]

Lets face it, they both need a project....

[Swanno (Ohf Shore)]

AlphaRamspeedblermoney

Thats a mouthfull!

[SCANAS]

Speculating but I don't think Crichton would want to play again. Langmen? He did say he purchased a boat for parts?

Hmm just reading there are now 29 more alfa dealerships in oz this year so maybe Crichton does want to play again?

[Jason AUS]

The Doyle Sydney guys have a sweet new main for Sean Langman's tri on the floor, so I'm not sure if he can be linked to any 100'er projects right now.

The waterfront tom toms all suggest that SpeedBler is Mr. Bell's new project for Hobart 2013.

[Carboninit]

Rambler is not a shitter as some of you say. I had a look at her in the shed and there is not much damage at all. As to the keel A/ C scan and thermal imaging is used to see what is going on. She can pay for herself chartering if located in the right place . Leopard does not make money as she is or was based in the UK . It will be interesting to see if Speedboat is going for a cut and shunt on the back or bow end . I wish all involved all the best and look forward to seeing her on the water again.

[Spargo]

Outstanding news!

Would be surprised if Croakie is behind all this as he sold AR2 after getting bored with no opposition to play with in the 100ft club and AR3 is on the market as well...

[Who's your daddy]

Carboninit,
"Not much damage"? You obviously didn't walk on the deck much as that didn't survive too well acting as a hull and seemed pretty floppy 18 months back and the various cracks and noises suggested some major delam. Interior you woudl rip out and put something of more value than a 40 foot race boat in anyway! So new deck, new systems, rational internal structure and all you are left with is a useable hull shell - hope whoever it is didn't pay much for it and has deep pockets or is looking for a funky new swimming pool liner

[Poop]

that thing just wont go away..

[GybeSet®]

Is this arrival too soon ??
she'll probably be deck cargo on somethin anyway



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[Gio']

Some intresting shots here:
https://www.facebook...&type=1

[Jason AUS]

Speculating but I don't think Crichton would want to play again. Langmen? He did say he purchased a boat for parts?

Hmm just reading there are now 29 more alfa dealerships in oz this year so maybe Crichton does want to play again?

As of mid last year Neville's company no longer imports Alfa Romeo into Aus... The parent company took over again.

[Terrafirma]

Interesting times ahead. There's no doubt that Oats has gotten quicker but is limited by her hull shape if we are talking power reaching when compared to Speedboat. Always wanted to see the 2 go head to head. Getting the boat here is one thing but getting her race ready is another. Wild Oats stays ahead because of her budget but they are nearing her limit now I would have thought. In lighter conditions I believe Oats will be clear ahead so conditions will play a part in a head to head showdown. Good to hear everyones thoughts on this all happening one day?

[Carboninit]

Carboninit,
"Not much damage"? You obviously didn't walk on the deck much as that didn't survive too well acting as a hull and seemed pretty floppy 18 months back and the various cracks and noises suggested some major delam. Interior you woudl rip out and put something of more value than a 40 foot race boat in anyway! So new deck, new systems, rational internal structure and all you are left with is a useable hull shell - hope whoever it is didn't pay much for it and has deep pockets or is looking for a funky new swimming pool liner

Your right I didn't walk on the deck.That's easy to replace just expensive as all boats are . Have a good weekend .

[umpire]

Great news. Look forward to the dust up between her and WOXI in the S2H, can they get a new rig sorted in time for this years event?

[Mojounwin]

It's lovely to see someone planning to get it running again. For a long time there I believed it would be destined for a date with the chainsaw.
I'd be interested to know how much they save over building new.

Cheers
Mojo

[Spargo]

Great news. Look forward to the dust up between her and WOXI in the S2H, can they get a new rig sorted in time for this years event?

I think it's very likely a rig was well underway before these pics surfaced. I'm meeting Tom Dodson tomorrow and I'll ask him, if anyone is likely to know whose building a rig down here in NZ, he'd be the one to know.

[Crouton]

Caller: "Hey Mate, we need some shrinkwrap, got any?"

Supplier: "Sure, how much do you need?"

Caller: "How much you got?"

[BrownTrout]

that thing just wont go away..

either will you.

[Recidivist]

Great news. Look forward to the dust up between her and WOXI in the S2H, can they get a new rig sorted in time for this years event?

It won't be just AlphaSpeedblerLoyal and WOXI - there should be a class of 100'ers, with another class of VO70's. Anyone got a forecast?

[Mojounwin]

A regatta getting all the 100fters together would be great to watch. Someone get the president on the phone and make it happen.

Cheers
Mojo

[Swanno (Ohf Shore)]

Great news. Look forward to the dust up between her and WOXI in the S2H, can they get a new rig sorted in time for this years event?

It won't be just AlphaSpeedblerLoyal and WOXI - there should be a class of 100'ers, with another class of VO70's. Anyone got a forecast?

Lucky the iPad keyboard is easy to wipe clean

[umpire]

Great news. Look forward to the dust up between her and WOXI in the S2H, can they get a new rig sorted in time for this years event?

I think it's very likely a rig was well underway before these pics surfaced. I'm meeting Tom Dodson tomorrow and I'll ask him, if anyone is likely to know whose building a rig down here in NZ, he'd be the one to know.

As Southern built the last one, guess they still have all the spec.

[umpire]

It's lovely to see someone planning to get it running again. For a long time there I believed it would be destined for a date with the chainsaw.
I'd be interested to know how much they save over building new.

Cheers
Mojo

Big saving on the build time

[s.a.l.t.y]

It might save on the build time but that shed is going to need so much cash thrown at it to get it going again they might as well build a new one!

[GybeSet®]

Boat is going to the backer behind Grant Wharringtons team, same fullah that that funded the WT rebuild and ready for last Hobart.

Remember theyve already rebuilt half a supermaxi in the last year, near doing it themselves on the cheap

[umpire]

Boat is going to the backer behind Grant Wharringtons team, same fullah that that funded the WT rebuild and ready for last Hobart.

Remember theyve already rebuilt half a supermaxi in the last year, near doing it themselves on the cheap

Don't like the sound of that.

[s.a.l.t.y]

Buy cheap = Buy twice.

[Scarecrow]

Buy cheap = Buy twice.

In the above case it was buy cheap, do it yourself and you won't find anyone willing to sign off on the work.

[DtM]

The shot on the front page woudl have been even better if the photographer had waited a few seconds and got a bit lower so that the building behind would have looked like a mast with a sail up.

Just a thought.

[umpire]

Was quite excited at the prospect of seeing her rebuilt back to her previous condition and race again. Now I'm not sure this is going to happen.

[Mexican]

Was quite excited at the prospect of seeing her rebuilt back to her previous condition and race again. Now I'm not sure this is going to happen.

I see your point.

Mex

[oomummado]

Boat is going to the backer behind Grant Wharringtons team, same fullah that that funded the WT rebuild and ready for last Hobart.

Remember theyve already rebuilt half a supermaxi in the last year, near doing it themselves on the cheap

Incorrect owner

[DtM]

Was quite excited at the prospect of seeing her rebuilt back to her previous condition and race again. Now I'm not sure this is going to happen.

Not sure why you think that she will not be rebuilt into better than previous condition in NZ/Australia

[GybeSet®]

Boat is going to the backer behind Grant Wharringtons team, same fullah that that funded the WT rebuild and ready for last Hobart.

Remember theyve already rebuilt half a supermaxi in the last year, near doing it themselves on the cheap

Incorrect owner

Ha ha
took days to correct that
was posted in the true spirit of SA 'rumours & lies'
It was the only big boat outfit not mentioned !

[ZeusProject]

Hear on the Zeus grapevine that she will be back to full balls out spec and is backed by one very very sorted individual.
Game on for the Hobart.

[trt]

I hear they will be going all out to make another major regatta a few months earlier than Hobart

[ZeusProject]

Lets hope so

[umpire]

Was quite excited at the prospect of seeing her rebuilt back to her previous condition and race again. Now I'm not sure this is going to happen.

Not sure why you think that she will not be rebuilt into better than previous condition in NZ/Australia

I have every faith in in the yards in NZ/Aus, she was built by Cooksons in the first place. It was the prospect of the proposed owner that I didn't like. Now that this has been corrected i'm happier.

[Mojounwin]

^{Could we be looking at monster shoot out at Hammo this year?}

[Spargo]

Soooo from what has been mentioned here and on the front page: It's not going to Investec / Bell. Warro hasn't bought her, It's going to an Australian owner, so it can't be Charlie Brown, who flicked Maximus as soon as he realised how much of a dog it was. It's being rebuilt in NZ at Cooksons, and it's getting a new rig from Southern (my own intel).

Has to be Croaky doesn't it? Occam's razor and all... Alfa Romeo IV?

[GybeSet®]

whers it say Bells not involved ?

[Spargo]

whers it say Bells not involved ?

The front page...

[DtM]

and .............................................................

[Francis Vaughan]

whers it say Bells not involved ?

The front page...

Sort of, the reply from Bell avoids the core question, and only denies the other rumours. So one might read into this that he is deliberately not answering the question "have you bought the boat?"

He writes:

“Just a quick note so you can update your info from a recent article. My Name is Anthony Bell (Investec Loyal), I have not been in partnership with Sean Langman since 2010, and While Neville Crichton is a great mate and Mentor, I am not fronting a possible new campaign for the Speedboat for him.”

[ZeusProject]

Hear Langman is not involved or croaky but someone new to sailing and if reports are correct which usually are I'm very interested in what happens next

[DtM]

Certainly not Langman. I suspect he would need to sell Team Australia and he is having too much fun with it to do that.

[Mexican]

Has to be Croaky doesn't it? Occam's razor and all... Alfa Romeo IV?

Neville's always be a big fan of the whole design and build process so this would be a departure from his recent MO...

Mex

[Flippin Out]

I could be mistaken but I reckon I heard Langman say in an interview on the Spirit of Yachting show recently about the 2012 Sydney-Hobart that he'd had enough of taking 5 days to get to Hobart at the end of the fleet and was keen to get back up the front end and had some plans underway.