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Considering ordering a J111


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#1 edasner

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Posted 28 January 2010 - 09:00 PM

I have had a J35 and J105 so I know TPI/JBoats historic manufacturing advantages and issues. I am considering the J111 after the J105 NAs this year and am interested to hear views on construction quality from anyone who has a boat (i think new J95 or J97) that is built but the 111 builder CCF composites. Thanks.

#2 JACO

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Posted 28 January 2010 - 09:10 PM

95 is CCF. I thiiiiiiiink the 97 is J-Composite (France) but don't carve that in stone.

#3 Stiffler's Mom

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Posted 28 January 2010 - 09:15 PM

There is a J 95 here in Texas for sale. Looked at it and it seemed alot better than TPI. J composites stuff is really nice. A litte bird told me that they have like 19 orders already? Can anyone with credibility substantiate that #? If so, Wow.......

#4 JACO

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Posted 28 January 2010 - 09:19 PM

A litte bird told me that they have like 19 orders already? Can anyone with credibility substantiate that #? If so, Wow.......


My bird (oh, that sounds so wrong....) told me 20 on order. Next hull available is #21, 2011 delivery.

#5 Stiffler's Mom

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Posted 28 January 2010 - 09:21 PM

Those pesky fuckin birds.......

#6 Blur

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Posted 28 January 2010 - 09:50 PM

Also interested...

The J/97, as well as my 2007 J/109 is from J/composites in France.
Super happy with build quality & finish on my boat, so it would
be interesting to compare with the new J/111.

#7 Stiffler's Mom

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Posted 28 January 2010 - 10:11 PM

I got to talk extensively with Jeff J on it during a recent regatta we sailed. They are stoked about making a no holes barred PH sled. If it catches on, it could be just what the doctor ordered for that size of race boat. What would it compare to? Summit 35? First 35?

#8 DAK

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Posted 28 January 2010 - 10:15 PM

What's the price tag?

#9 edasner

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Posted 28 January 2010 - 10:31 PM

What's the price tag?

$229 base pretty well equiped

#10 DAK

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Posted 28 January 2010 - 10:56 PM

sounds reasonable.

#11 jolly

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Posted 29 January 2010 - 12:42 AM

I got to talk extensively with Jeff J on it during a recent regatta we sailed. They are stoked about making a no holes barred PH sled. If it catches on, it could be just what the doctor ordered for that size of race boat. What would it compare to? Summit 35? First 35?



i would compare it more to a Mills/Summit 35.

the First will be designed alot with IRC in mind, as is the A35. That said the A35 is a quick boat even though it's fin keel design dates back to 1970's/80's era boats.

another option would be an X35

something for out and out speed would be the melges 32, but not so much cruising potential I fear!

I heard J111 hull #1 mould will be popped early next month.

#12 Stiffler's Mom

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Posted 29 January 2010 - 03:53 PM

That same bird also told me that #7 was coming to Texas. Sign my ass up....
As for comparing it to a Melges, totally different market. The 32 has become the new Farr 40. All the big programs figured out that you can go twice as fast, 1/2 the crew and 1/3 the overhead. Just what the Dr ordered for them. This 111 could be the answer for the guys that want to do pseudo grand prix but need a little cabin room to appease the old lady.

Q: Think it will squash what is left of the J 109 racing?

#13 SailRacer

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Posted 29 January 2010 - 03:59 PM

I know someone interested if only the lawmakers would stop messing with the compensation (retention bonuses) of banking executives.

Sail Safe!

#14 cove

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Posted 29 January 2010 - 04:10 PM

8 on a 32 and 10 on a 40 so not quite 1/2 the crew

That same bird also told me that #7 was coming to Texas. Sign my ass up....
As for comparing it to a Melges, totally different market. The 32 has become the new Farr 40. All the big programs figured out that you can go twice as fast, 1/2 the crew and 1/3 the overhead. Just what the Dr ordered for them. This 111 could be the answer for the guys that want to do pseudo grand prix but need a little cabin room to appease the old lady.

Q: Think it will squash what is left of the J 109 racing?



#15 hogwash

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Posted 29 January 2010 - 04:18 PM

Next available J/111 hull slot is #21 with projected finish in late February/early March 2011..... LINKY

#16 JSailor

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Posted 29 January 2010 - 05:53 PM

I have had a J35 and J105 so I know TPI/JBoats historic manufacturing advantages and issues. I am considering the J111 after the J105 NAs this year and am interested to hear views on construction quality from anyone who has a boat (i think new J95 or J97) that is built but the 111 builder CCF composites. Thanks.


J/111 and J/95 built at CCF Composites.

J/97 built in France at J/Composites.

#17 JSailor

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Posted 29 January 2010 - 05:56 PM

I got to talk extensively with Jeff J on it during a recent regatta we sailed. They are stoked about making a no holes barred PH sled. If it catches on, it could be just what the doctor ordered for that size of race boat. What would it compare to? Summit 35? First 35?



i would compare it more to a Mills/Summit 35.

the First will be designed alot with IRC in mind, as is the A35. That said the A35 is a quick boat even though it's fin keel design dates back to 1970's/80's era boats.

another option would be an X35

something for out and out speed would be the melges 32, but not so much cruising potential I fear!

I heard J111 hull #1 mould will be popped early next month.


J/111 isn't any of those things. For comparison, would have to add nearly 2,000 lbs to make it "fit" IRC rule--- that's for starters. And, prismatic changes dramatically, so hull would have a lot more rocker.

J/111 is essentially a turbo'd J/105 mashed up with a Melges 32 with standing headroom for the missus. Easy boat to sail. Fast as hell.

#18 solosailor

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Posted 29 January 2010 - 06:08 PM

J/111 is essentially a turbo'd J/105 mashed up with a Melges 32 with standing headroom for the missus. Easy boat to sail. Fast as hell.

Actually it's a SC37. I don't think J/boats like their dealers representing the SC37 so they built one.

#19 ragbag

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Posted 29 January 2010 - 06:11 PM

I reserved hull#4 to come to NorCal. Had the same question and concern. Had a J/90 for 4 yrs. and that boat while a great sail boat wasn't that well built, finish was especially poor. We will have to wait 'n see. But J Boats were very deliberate moving on from TPI, had good experience with J/Europe, and so far with the 95 built by CCF. Very excited about this boat. I also liked the SC37 plenty which is very similar on concept but I put my trust into the J brand and the people behind it. This boat is supposed to get up on a plane so not at all comparable to heavy IRC designs by Mills et al. J Boats are aiming for OD here, not a handicap rule.

#20 Blur

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Posted 29 January 2010 - 06:19 PM

I reserved hull#4 to come to NorCal.

#18 reserved for Sweden...

#21 edasner

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Posted 29 January 2010 - 06:34 PM

I reserved hull#4 to come to NorCal. Had the same question and concern. Had a J/90 for 4 yrs. and that boat while a great sail boat wasn't that well built, finish was especially poor. We will have to wait 'n see. But J Boats were very deliberate moving on from TPI, had good experience with J/Europe, and so far with the 95 built by CCF. Very excited about this boat. I also liked the SC37 plenty which is very similar on concept but I put my trust into the J brand and the people behind it. This boat is supposed to get up on a plane so not at all comparable to heavy IRC designs by Mills et al. J Boats are aiming for OD here, not a handicap rule.


Have you seen a CCF J95 in person?

I am looking at this boat as an updated and faster 105 and hope it will be 1D in Chicago.

#22 InNeedOfSomeRestraint

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Posted 29 January 2010 - 06:45 PM

I reserved hull#4 to come to NorCal.

#18 reserved for Sweden...


For who-den in Swe-den? You-den?

#23 Stiffler's Mom

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Posted 29 January 2010 - 07:06 PM

I have seen the j95. Take a J92, put a board in it and fix everything wrong with the J 92= J95. Sweet but pricy for a weekender.

#24 crash

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Posted 29 January 2010 - 08:08 PM

As you may well know, J Boats usually does an owners open house in the February time frame. I'm sure if you are seriously considering a 111 your dealer could get you an invite...

#25 ragbag

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Posted 29 January 2010 - 08:16 PM

Have you seen a CCF J95 in person?


No, just heard from people who have. We are not likely to see 95s here out West as it is a boat intended for shallow waters.

#26 DrewR

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Posted 29 January 2010 - 11:36 PM

As you may well know, J Boats usually does an owners open house in the February time frame. I'm sure if you are seriously considering a 111 your dealer could get you an invite...


Having gone to a few J open houses, I dont think they've had one the last 2 years. And I dont see any open house events on their web site. I enjoyed going to them, so lets hope they bring them back.

I too would love to see the 111 in person, having owned a J/24 and currently a J/35. I sent them an email inquiring about pricing and delivery, but have not gotten a reply. Not that I have the cash at this moment to commit to one, but I would definitly consider one in the future.

#27 Christian

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Posted 30 January 2010 - 03:52 AM

I reserved hull#4 to come to NorCal. Had the same question and concern. Had a J/90 for 4 yrs. and that boat while a great sail boat wasn't that well built, finish was especially poor. We will have to wait 'n see. But J Boats were very deliberate moving on from TPI, had good experience with J/Europe, and so far with the 95 built by CCF. Very excited about this boat. I also liked the SC37 plenty which is very similar on concept but I put my trust into the J brand and the people behind it. This boat is supposed to get up on a plane so not at all comparable to heavy IRC designs by Mills et al. J Boats are aiming for OD here, not a handicap rule.


While maybe not as heavy as a Mills or Corby (or anybody else's) IRC specific design it is not exactly a very high SA/D either upwind or down. Planing? Maybe - but it will need a relatively hefty breeze for that

#28 Black Dog

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Posted 30 January 2010 - 04:31 AM

As you may well know, J Boats usually does an owners open house in the February time frame. I'm sure if you are seriously considering a 111 your dealer could get you an invite...


Having gone to a few J open houses, I dont think they've had one the last 2 years. And I dont see any open house events on their web site. I enjoyed going to them, so lets hope they bring them back.

I too would love to see the 111 in person, having owned a J/24 and currently a J/35. I sent them an email inquiring about pricing and delivery, but have not gotten a reply. Not that I have the cash at this moment to commit to one, but I would definitly consider one in the future.


They had an event at Waterline last year. I think I saw they are going to repete it again this year.

#29 ragbag

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Posted 30 January 2010 - 03:39 PM

Planing? Maybe - but it will need a relatively hefty breeze for that


J/90 could get up on a plane at 12-14 kts depending on how hot an angle you'd sail off the wind. I suspect this boat needs more like 20 kts. Not a huge problem in NorCal, 18-20 kts. shows up in the summer right around 1230-0100 pm most days. If you wait around, you can get your ass kicked with gusts from the mid-high 20s. We need boats here that are designed and built for a breeze.

#30 oil man

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Posted 30 January 2010 - 04:07 PM

What's the price tag?

$229 base pretty well equiped

that is the base base price - figure 270 by the time you are all in with sails electronics, offshore gear and a few"comfort" check boxes on the build list

#31 DAK

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Posted 30 January 2010 - 04:17 PM

If I remember correctly, that's about the price they were quoting for the Archambault 35. Don't recall if that had CF spars or not. How would those two compare?

#32 JSailor

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Posted 31 January 2010 - 08:12 PM

Planing? Maybe - but it will need a relatively hefty breeze for that


J/90 could get up on a plane at 12-14 kts depending on how hot an angle you'd sail off the wind. I suspect this boat needs more like 20 kts. Not a huge problem in NorCal, 18-20 kts. shows up in the summer right around 1230-0100 pm most days. If you wait around, you can get your ass kicked with gusts from the mid-high 20s. We need boats here that are designed and built for a breeze.


Close. What the specs don't tell you is actual sailing waterline length. And, actual SA/ wetted surface on that realistic sailing waterline length. The J/111 should fall into the same planing mode range as J/90 to J/80-- about 15 knots, depending on angle. Bigger boat with same load wetted surface per square foot generally planes faster due to ability to generate significantly power with taller rigs/ faster apparent wind build-up. By comparison, J/105 is up around 22-23 knots breeze for downwind VMG/ VMC planing mode for the same reason.

#33 JSailor

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Posted 31 January 2010 - 08:15 PM

As you may well know, J Boats usually does an owners open house in the February time frame. I'm sure if you are seriously considering a 111 your dealer could get you an invite...


Having gone to a few J open houses, I dont think they've had one the last 2 years. And I dont see any open house events on their web site. I enjoyed going to them, so lets hope they bring them back.

I too would love to see the 111 in person, having owned a J/24 and currently a J/35. I sent them an email inquiring about pricing and delivery, but have not gotten a reply. Not that I have the cash at this moment to commit to one, but I would definitly consider one in the future.


Did you send to J/Dealer or J/HQ? Racing on water about $260-285k. Delivery now spring 2011 for next boat.

#34 doghouse

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Posted 31 January 2010 - 08:19 PM

Planing? Maybe - but it will need a relatively hefty breeze for that


J/90 could get up on a plane at 12-14 kts depending on how hot an angle you'd sail off the wind. I suspect this boat needs more like 20 kts. Not a huge problem in NorCal, 18-20 kts. shows up in the summer right around 1230-0100 pm most days. If you wait around, you can get your ass kicked with gusts from the mid-high 20s. We need boats here that are designed and built for a breeze.


Close. What the specs don't tell you is actual sailing waterline length. And, actual SA/ wetted surface on that realistic sailing waterline length. The J/111 should fall into the same planing mode range as J/90 to J/80-- about 15 knots, depending on angle. Bigger boat with same load wetted surface per square foot generally planes faster due to ability to generate significantly power with taller rigs/ faster apparent wind build-up. By comparison, J/105 is up around 22-23 knots breeze for downwind VMG/ VMC planing mode for the same reason.


You are very off with several numbers.

#35 ragbag

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Posted 01 February 2010 - 09:05 PM

By comparison, J/105 is up around 22-23 knots breeze for downwind VMG/ VMC planing mode for the same reason.


Has anyone ever seen a J/105 or /120 getting up on a plane? Don't mean surfing off big waves, not the same thing. I've only seen these boats plow a bigger hole in the water as the breeze kicks up, even way up. Sail area, displacement and length are all conspiring to help overcome the friction of the bow wave - or not - as the case maybe, and more breeze always helps you get closer to pulling loose and getting up. That said, hull shape is a biggie. Flat aft bottom sections are usually associated with promoting planing but as you look at the 111 hull plug, note how the bottom of the bow lifts up from the center going forward. This may help it climb up on top of its own bow wave with less resistance, lowering the threshold, e.g. how much breeze you need to get up. J Boats have designed some pretty hard planing boats with the 90 and 125 (for the latter one, have a peak on YouTube to see what that looks like) so me thinks they know what they're doing.

#36 Jgo

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Posted 05 February 2010 - 07:55 PM

As you may well know, J Boats usually does an owners open house in the February time frame. I'm sure if you are seriously considering a 111 your dealer could get you an invite...


Having gone to a few J open houses, I dont think they've had one the last 2 years. And I dont see any open house events on their web site. I enjoyed going to them, so lets hope they bring them back.

I too would love to see the 111 in person, having owned a J/24 and currently a J/35. I sent them an email inquiring about pricing and delivery, but have not gotten a reply. Not that I have the cash at this moment to commit to one, but I would definitly consider one in the future.



We are having difficulties with our online request form, namely I am not getting them. Please email me directly, info@jboats.com.
Thanks
Kendra

#37 Stiffler's Mom

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Posted 05 February 2010 - 09:46 PM

Pics off the site look like the plug is done and mould is coming soon.

#38 C-Rock

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Posted 11 February 2010 - 04:03 AM

I had a chance to talk to Alan Johnstone at the SS Chicago and he had said the J 97 was being built in Poland. I also think he said (could be wrong) but if the J 97 really took off that they might have it built in the US as well.

Cliff J 29 Abby Normal

#39 Jambalaya

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Posted 11 February 2010 - 04:46 AM

I had a chance to talk to Alan Johnstone at the SS Chicago and he had said the J 97 was being built in Poland. I also think he said (could be wrong) but if the J 97 really took off that they might have it built in the US as well.

Cliff J 29 Abby Normal


That's interesting re: the 97 build in Poland

#40 Wet Spreaders

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Posted 15 February 2010 - 03:44 PM

By comparison, J/105 is up around 22-23 knots breeze for downwind VMG/ VMC planing mode for the same reason.


Has anyone ever seen a J/105 or /120 getting up on a plane? Don't mean surfing off big waves, not the same thing. I've only seen these boats plow a bigger hole in the water as the breeze kicks up, even way up. Sail area, displacement and length are all conspiring to help overcome the friction of the bow wave - or not - as the case maybe, and more breeze always helps you get closer to pulling loose and getting up. That said, hull shape is a biggie. Flat aft bottom sections are usually associated with promoting planing but as you look at the 111 hull plug, note how the bottom of the bow lifts up from the center going forward. This may help it climb up on top of its own bow wave with less resistance, lowering the threshold, e.g. how much breeze you need to get up. J Boats have designed some pretty hard planing boats with the 90 and 125 (for the latter one, have a peak on YouTube to see what that looks like) so me thinks they know what they're doing.


I drive a 105 in SF. My feeling about the "does the J105 plane?" question is "maybe". What happens is that in 28+ kts of breeze, the fastest VMG is no longer "deep" - you can poke the nose up a bit - maybe 5 to 8 degrees - and the boat starts to go very fast. I have seen 19.5kts on my speedo in 32+kts wind. The steering gets very smooth and positive, the spray stops flying over the bow and the sensation is of stability and a kind of running-on-rails positivity in the helm. Is it planing? By the standards of a flat bottomed skiffy kind of sled, probably not. More like a Barnes-Wallis 2000lb oil drum full of high explosive (look it up) - toss anything at the water fast enough and it's going to skip a bit. My $0.02.

#41 Mash

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Posted 15 February 2010 - 04:14 PM

Q: Think it will squash what is left of the J 109 racing?


Not sure you can/should compare the two. AFAIK, the 109 is pretty IRC-oriented, and the 111, well, apparently not so much...

M

#42 icepack

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Posted 15 February 2010 - 04:16 PM

As you may well know, J Boats usually does an owners open house in the February time frame. I'm sure if you are seriously considering a 111 your dealer could get you an invite...


Having gone to a few J open houses, I dont think they've had one the last 2 years. And I dont see any open house events on their web site. I enjoyed going to them, so lets hope they bring them back.

I too would love to see the 111 in person, having owned a J/24 and currently a J/35. I sent them an email inquiring about pricing and delivery, but have not gotten a reply. Not that I have the cash at this moment to commit to one, but I would definitly consider one in the future.



We are having difficulties with our online request form, namely I am not getting them. Please email me directly, info@jboats.com.
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Kendra



When is the next J-boats open house in RI?

#43 jsailannapolis

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Posted 14 March 2010 - 12:24 AM

I have sailed both the J95 and the J97. I raced the J95 and was very impressed with its performance both uphill and down. CCF did great work on the boat and its finish was very well done. They are the guys who build the molds for roush mustangs and other roush deigned cars so they are used to high quality spec and work. I am unsure of the exact next hull number on the 111 but the delivery date is definantly 2011. From what i have heard it waqs designed with the Mumm 36 in mind, and should be fairly similar performance wise. North Point Yacht Sales is having an open house this week, the 18th, with Jeff J. attending for anyone who would like more info on the 111 and is in the Annapolis area. Cheers!

#44 Blur

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Posted 18 March 2010 - 09:22 PM

Posted Image

Deck plug is up at J/boats + more info below.
Happy to see that they decided on the Hall Spar...

Looks promising!

HOT and Getting Hotter

(Bristol, RI)- The J/111 first hull is molding and the deck plug is complete. The project is on track for sailing in June. Interest continues to grow, with two dozen orders from Europe, New Zealand, America and China. Perhaps more importantly, some of the key specifications have been determined to provide state-of-the-art performance and affordable racing for a grand prix one-design class. The J/111 will sport a carbon pre-preg Hall Spar. The spar design and tube section make use of ZyVex Corp's Arovex carbon nano-tube technology - a first for the sailboat industry. The technology promises a rig that is both stronger and lighter than comparable carbon rigs.

For superior lift, low VCG and maximum righting moment, the J/111 has a vertical L-shaped bulb keel comprised of a 316L formed stainless steel fin and an antimony-reinforced bulb attached to the hull with a broad SS flange. The deck plan is ultra-simplistic for maximum ease-of-use for a crew of just six people. The large 60" wheel affords superior visibility of wind, waves and the leading edge of the jib. The interior for the American market has simple cruising accommodations, a functional galley and navigation station.



#45 InNeedOfSomeRestraint

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Posted 19 March 2010 - 12:25 AM

What's up with that cockpit seating?

#46 GLAZE

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Posted 19 March 2010 - 01:03 AM

What's up with that cockpit seating?

Lazerettes.

#47 InNeedOfSomeRestraint

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Posted 19 March 2010 - 01:10 AM


What's up with that cockpit seating?

Lazerettes.


It looks mighty uncomfortable if you're trying to do anything but race. Why not make it all the same and have one half open up like on the 122?

Posted Image

Edit: I see it's not. The aft half is already set up for the Lazzarette covers. Please ignore my brain fart and just move along.

#48 ragbag

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Posted 19 March 2010 - 01:36 AM

Posted Image

Deck plug is up at J/boats + more info below.
Happy to see that they decided on the Hall Spar...

Looks promising!

HOT and Getting Hotter

(Bristol, RI)- The J/111 first hull is molding and the deck plug is complete. The project is on track for sailing in June. Interest continues to grow, with two dozen orders from Europe, New Zealand, America and China. Perhaps more importantly, some of the key specifications have been determined to provide state-of-the-art performance and affordable racing for a grand prix one-design class. The J/111 will sport a carbon pre-preg Hall Spar. The spar design and tube section make use of ZyVex Corp's Arovex carbon nano-tube technology - a first for the sailboat industry. The technology promises a rig that is both stronger and lighter than comparable carbon rigs.

For superior lift, low VCG and maximum righting moment, the J/111 has a vertical L-shaped bulb keel comprised of a 316L formed stainless steel fin and an antimony-reinforced bulb attached to the hull with a broad SS flange. The deck plan is ultra-simplistic for maximum ease-of-use for a crew of just six people. The large 60" wheel affords superior visibility of wind, waves and the leading edge of the jib. The interior for the American market has simple cruising accommodations, a functional galley and navigation station.



I am glad they went with L-shaped and not the torpedo style T-shape keel bulb. I can't debate the design issues, but dragging kelp and other crap around your keel is a constant issue in many areas. Also, glad with Hall spars - as good as it gets.

#49 BoomerangJ

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Posted 23 March 2010 - 03:33 AM

There are a couple of different ways to learn more about the J/111. Several dealers have hosted, or will host events for those that want to learn more about the J/111, the design goals, and class association objectives. We are hosting one in Seabrook, Texas this Friday. The Annapolis dealer held an event last week and JBoats Midwest beat us all with an event last year. I believe there will be a SoCal event in the near future.

Dealers are also able to host factory visits with Jeff and/or Alan on an individually scheduled basis. Work with your local dealer to set something up that meets your visit objectives.

I went up early on March 10th and "made the rounds" prior to the dealer meeting on Friday. Well worth the time. Several J/105's making their way down the line at US Watercraft, Several J/95s at CCF, and International Marine with several projects. Combine this with the activity in Europe and Asia and a lot of good stuff going on.

This personal approach with touring the factory and suppliers for the boat you are interested in will be the approach taken for the near future. Hope this helps!

Scott-JBoatsSouthwest

#50 us7070

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Posted 23 March 2010 - 03:30 PM

I am glad they went with L-shaped and not the torpedo style T-shape keel bulb. I can't debate the design issues, but dragging kelp and other crap around your keel is a constant issue in many areas. Also, glad with Hall spars - as good as it gets.


even better that there is no sump...


.

#51 mustang__1

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Posted 24 March 2010 - 02:01 PM

they need to get rid of the cockpit seating altogether... seriously, its more comfortable to sit on the coming and lean on the lifelines anyway when just daysailing or having a beer, and they get in the way when racing.

#52 ragbag

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Posted 25 March 2010 - 02:12 AM

they need to get rid of the cockpit seating altogether... seriously, its more comfortable to sit on the coming and lean on the lifelines anyway when just daysailing or having a beer, and they get in the way when racing.


I agree with you - if there are just hard core individuals on the boat. The seating is much more comfortable and protected for lay people coming on the boat. I mentioned somewhere else in thisi thread that I reserved hull #4 of this boat. I would not have without these cockpit seats and this type of cockpit. I also owned and raced a J/90 for 4 years, and it had a cockpit like you described, and there was no earthly way to bring anybody on that boat other than the hardened individuals. Believe me, I tried, they never came again (maybe it was the wipe outs ;-). This is in part what makes the boat what J Boats calls "versatile".

#53 mustang__1

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Posted 25 March 2010 - 04:35 AM

i dunno, i;ve sailed a few boats without cockpit seats, from 35-45' and i was much more comfortable both on and off the race course without the seats than i am on, say, our 109 with the cockpit seats. the only time i think i sit on the cockpit seats would be beating in big air when daysailing. But its only a small convenience, that id give up if given the option, to duck in there; and without a dodger im really not all that much dryer or out of the wind anyway. and, as far non sailors/racers are concerned, they typically arent out with us in conditions like that, usually... Otherwise im always on the coming anyway. better visibility, more comfortable to me, etc. but, anything is comfortable (except for J24's and toe rails...) when i spend 50% of my time in dinks...

#54 Jambalaya

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Posted 25 March 2010 - 08:46 AM

The seats and cockpit lockers are a good idea, certainly not a negative. Looking at the deck mould it also looks like the raised section where the winch will go will enable a crew member to race inwards with their butt braced against this seciton and their feet on the seats. Without the seats there is a large amount of cockpit space to fall into.

J-boats know their market, we are loyal customers for a reason

#55 Blur

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Posted 25 March 2010 - 05:44 PM

The seats and cockpit lockers are a good idea, certainly not a negative. Looking at the deck mould it also looks like the raised section where the winch will go will enable a crew member to race inwards with their butt braced against this seciton and their feet on the seats. Without the seats there is a large amount of cockpit space to fall into.

J-boats know their market, we are loyal customers for a reason

+1

Cockpit layout looks great considering the mix of OD racing, shorthanded and weekend cruising.

And it's one thing to rant about lighter displacement, more sail and race optimized deck layouts (I can play that game as well as anybody). But the key here is to get critical mass, and so far it looks like they succeded with that?

#56 crash

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Posted 25 March 2010 - 06:19 PM

+2

I always liked the cockpit seats in the 109. As a compromise when not racing, and for moving about the cockpit at larger heel angles. This was confirmed for me while racing at Key West on a Bene 40.7 with the removeable seats out. It was a long f***ing fall from the windward coaming down to the leeward cockpit floor. I didn't like that layout at all. Maybe on a pure race boat, with less of a coaming to cockpit floor distance it would be no big deal (say a Farr 40), but on the 40.7 it was like going off Niagara Falls each time.

#57 doghouse

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Posted 25 March 2010 - 06:25 PM

That is the weirdest thing. I honestly have no idea why anyone would want a cockpit seat in a boat. It is so far away from being and ergonomic design my back hurts just thinking about it. It is probably my number one gripe with IRC really. It makes everything on the boat harder to do.

#58 Presuming Ed

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Posted 25 March 2010 - 08:46 PM

they need to get rid of the cockpit seating altogether... seriously, its more comfortable to sit on the coming and lean on the lifelines anyway when just daysailing or having a beer, and they get in the way when racing.


Nah. When cruising, on the leeward side, sit on the cockpit seat facing aft, leaning against the coach roof. Comfiest place on the whole boat. On the windward side, sit facing inwards, braced across the cockpit. Low seat backs mean you can lean back easily, supporting yourself with your elbows on the seat backs. Everybody is facing each other, and can see each other so you can chat with your mates.

#59 mustang__1

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Posted 25 March 2010 - 11:01 PM

if just cruising along and shooting the shit i like to actually hang out on the rail leaning against the coachroof, or sitting on the coach roof, or leaning against the mast etc. One of my favorite spots on the 109 though is actually leaning on the pushpit with my feet propped up on the deck. I've spent a lot of time leaning against the coachroof on the leeward seat, but its a luxury id happily give up for a more ergonomic and spacey cockpit (especially in the 109, gets very cramped very quick - even with my 130# ass working between the jib trimmers to get up to the weather rail can be a pain...literally).

#60 InNeedOfSomeRestraint

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Posted 26 March 2010 - 12:32 AM

One of my favorite spots on the 109 though is actually leaning on the pushpit with my feet propped up on the deck.


This is even more comfy on the 122. It's where I sit on light air days or when I'm not doing anything on a delivery.

#61 Jambalaya

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Posted 29 March 2010 - 09:17 AM

That is the weirdest thing. I honestly have no idea why anyone would want a cockpit seat in a boat. It is so far away from being and ergonomic design my back hurts just thinking about it. It is probably my number one gripe with IRC really. It makes everything on the boat harder to do.


Well if you are going to have a gripe that's a minor one I suppose. The cockpit seats are there becuase the owners want them (whether for interior space or otherwise). IRC reflects owner priorities.

#62 ragbag

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Posted 03 April 2010 - 04:51 PM

April 2, 2010
Dealer Bulletin #743


J/111 Specification Update

Please find with this bulletin the updated J/111 Standard Specification
April 2, 2010. This is a much more detailed follow-up to the December
spec and includes some significant value upgrades such as:

Hall Spars auto-claved carbon fiber mast
Carbon fiber rudder post
Jefa rudder bearings and emergency tiller
Facnor low-profile “flat” furling system (abovedeck)
Dyneema backstay
Harken Radial winches
Easy Hiking 9” high lower lifelines (per ORC min height requirement)
Spinlock ZR Jammers for main and jib halyards
Ronstan calibrated turnbuckles

#63 L Z

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Posted 03 April 2010 - 06:28 PM

For those interested.... this comes from the Charleston Race Week Press Release issued by the South Caroline Maritime Foundation:

J Innovation continues... J/111 Launching in June


Special Friday Night Charleston Race Week "Sneak Peak"


with Jeff Johnstone & Craig Crossley


Posted Image Posted Image

Learn more about the excitement for the J/111 Speedster. With two dozen orders from Europe, North America and the Pacific Rim, this next generation one-design and performance weekender has struck a chord with performance sailors.



Get the inside story on the J/111 project with in-factory photos and details on the specification and schedule.

#64 MR.CLEAN

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Posted 04 April 2010 - 05:11 PM

More to come in a Monday morning press release as well. Big backlog already on the 111, hell of a nice slot that the Johnstones have dug into with this boat.

#65 Damp Freddie

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Posted 13 April 2010 - 11:46 AM

Guys is the triple one gonna be a frac'?

On jboats.com I don't actually see any drawings or reference.

Hope it is a frac: less head sail changes!

On the cockpit seats: these look like they will get in the way of a good bit of anger-management while standing over a winch grinding: comments?

#66 Blur

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Posted 13 April 2010 - 12:08 PM

Guys is the triple one gonna be a frac'?

On jboats.com I don't actually see any drawings or reference.


Naturally you should check other sites for this kind of info :-)
http://www.blur.se/2009/10/08/sweet-j111-speedster/

Posted Image

#67 Damp Freddie

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Posted 14 April 2010 - 11:33 AM


Guys is the triple one gonna be a frac'?

On jboats.com I don't actually see any drawings or reference.


Naturally you should check other sites for this kind of info :-)
http://www.blur.se/2009/10/08/sweet-j111-speedster/

Posted Image


+1 ;-)

#68 gord262

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Posted 16 April 2010 - 01:23 AM

The latest jBOATS newsletter promises shots of hull #1 a this location http://www.jboats.co...QcDDU0NAEhSAVAF but I don't anything new here. Can anyone help?

#69 Blur

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Posted 17 April 2010 - 03:19 AM

Posted Image
Pics are up in the gallery now.

#70 DC/Chicago

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Posted 17 April 2010 - 09:45 PM

Posted Image
Pics are up in the gallery now.

Nice,This boat will take off !!I see this as a nice OD in couple years

#71 Damp Freddie

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Posted 17 April 2010 - 10:28 PM


Posted Image
Pics are up in the gallery now.

Nice,This boat will take off !!I see this as a nice OD in couple years


Looks suspiciously like an SJ320.

Might be really fast, gonna dammage the J brand equity there a bit like those darn 90s and 125s, way too quick

#72 ragbag

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Posted 18 April 2010 - 02:35 PM



Posted Image
Pics are up in the gallery now.

Nice,This boat will take off !!I see this as a nice OD in couple years


Looks suspiciously like an SJ320.

Might be really fast, gonna dammage the J brand equity there a bit like those darn 90s and 125s, way too quick


I think that Rod has always been a purist and designed boats just as he liked them with not a huge regard for commercial results. Doesn't mean you can't be successful that way, like w/ the J/24. The J/90 eeked out 5 boats, and a 6th one many years later. It was a very expensive boat at the time, and try getting your spouse on that thing (mine came on the boat once in 4 years). Somebody with more commercial sense over there started drawing boats for larger audiences, but they seem to now bend it to more of a performance dimension. They can keep the price in check, this thing could take off. IRC pigs be damned.

#73 BoomerangJ

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Posted 23 April 2010 - 11:44 AM

I have had a J35 and J105 so I know TPI/JBoats historic manufacturing advantages and issues. I am considering the J111 after the J105 NAs this year and am interested to hear views on construction quality from anyone who has a boat (i think new J95 or J97) that is built but the 111 builder CCF composites. Thanks.



Going way back to the OP's question on build quality from CCF. FWIW: http://www.pitchengi...carcieri/46115/

More news here: http://www.jboatssou...s_mtg_0310.html

all newsletters: http://www.jboatssou...etter_list.html

Sign up if you like-It's free!

BTW-We have a J/95 in inventory. Build quality is great, and is reflected by the various writers that have written articles on the J/95. After being through this factory three times I like everything I see: Management involvement on the floor, conscientious and hard working employee's, cleanest boat building shop I have seen. Close relationship with JBoats on getting things done right. They even have a dog mascot! As the above linked article states they are also a "green" builder-thats good for boat building in the US. JBoats has done a great job getting all of the builders on track with the companies needs. All of them are excellent: CCF, JBComposites, US Watercraft, JBoats Asia. Good things coming!

#74 Damp Freddie

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Posted 23 April 2010 - 11:13 PM

Seems to have a lot less "dead rise" ie wetted volume than the 109, 105, 35 and even 80. Gotta be faster, if more tender up wind than the nearest 109 and 35

SA/displ./LWL? what do the mathematicians think of the jay-triple-one?

You could line this up to some SJ designs and the new Arachbault also pictured as a guess it on SA ( also the grand surprise 30 footer, bears some striking similarity in the bow, the water line and the flare.)

Who cares if it rates on IRC, go for it Johnsons!

Now all we need is economic growth and no more frikkin volcanoes to get an OOD class going over the next few years!

#75 ragbag

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Posted 26 April 2010 - 02:15 PM

From J Boats front page:

The rig and keel combination enable performance characteristics similar to downwind flyers like the J/90 and J/125. With nearly the same BWL/Sailing Length and Downwind SA/Wetted Surface ratios as these flyers, the J/111 will be a rocketship reaching and running at double-digit speeds! Compared to the J/105, its about the same DSPL on 4 feet longer Sailing Length with 50% more Downwind SA. That power translates into speeds of 30-40 seconds per mile faster than the J/105. And, with higher RM than many of its 34-37 foot brethren, this sailboat will easily slice to windward at 7.0+ knots.

Hope expectations don't get too far ahead of what the boat will eventually deliver...

#76 Jambalaya

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Posted 26 April 2010 - 02:46 PM

I like the boat but I agree with ragbag ... it has about 35% more downwind sail area than a European J105 Masthead OD and the boat could handle 105-110 easily (and frankly the US 105 guys should up the OD kite area too), our the upwind speeds are in the 6.6-6.8 range when the wind gets up especially with a stacked (non-OD) rail ... the J/111 is a nice boat but "rocketship" ? It's going to be slower than the Arch M34.

EDIT: sorry had to edit the above - momentary memory lapse, force of a 6 year habit

#77 InNeedOfSomeRestraint

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Posted 26 April 2010 - 07:31 PM

Hope expectations don't get too far ahead of what the boat will eventually deliver...


Rod J was at AYC this weekend and I had a long conversation with him yesterday morning about the boat. They're pretty excited about it and they have good reason to be, if it turns out like they hope then you'll have a formidable boat on your hands (eventual PHRF/IRC ratings nonwithstanding)

#78 ragbag

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Posted 27 April 2010 - 09:04 PM


Hope expectations don't get too far ahead of what the boat will eventually deliver...


Rod J was at AYC this weekend and I had a long conversation with him yesterday morning about the boat. They're pretty excited about it and they have good reason to be, if it turns out like they hope then you'll have a formidable boat on your hands (eventual PHRF/IRC ratings nonwithstanding)


Yep, I just like the boat to just deliver on the promise instead of hyping it and having the boat disappoint on the race course later. This happened to the Santa Cruz 37. Hard to recover from that.

#79 mustang__1

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Posted 27 April 2010 - 09:17 PM

course if this isnt being type-formed to IRC, as im reading it, then the only true test for this boat is that its fun enough to sail and enough people want to buy it for there to be a OD class. otherwise, what will the point be in a 300k+ phrf racer?...

#80 dacapo

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Posted 27 April 2010 - 09:23 PM


Hope expectations don't get too far ahead of what the boat will eventually deliver...


Rod J was at AYC this weekend and I had a long conversation with him yesterday morning about the boat. They're pretty excited about it and they have good reason to be, if it turns out like they hope then you'll have a formidable boat on your hands (eventual PHRF/IRC ratings nonwithstanding)


slight hijack....
I heard Rod J was going to go out on Avra. Did he this weekend?? or next weekend??please continue with your regularly scheduled programming

#81 Black Dog

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Posted 27 April 2010 - 10:09 PM



Hope expectations don't get too far ahead of what the boat will eventually deliver...


Rod J was at AYC this weekend and I had a long conversation with him yesterday morning about the boat. They're pretty excited about it and they have good reason to be, if it turns out like they hope then you'll have a formidable boat on your hands (eventual PHRF/IRC ratings nonwithstanding)


slight hijack....
I heard Rod J was going to go out on Avra. Did he this weekend?? or next weekend??please continue with your regularly scheduled programming



He better bring his life jacket.

#82 InNeedOfSomeRestraint

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Posted 27 April 2010 - 10:53 PM



Hope expectations don't get too far ahead of what the boat will eventually deliver...


Rod J was at AYC this weekend and I had a long conversation with him yesterday morning about the boat. They're pretty excited about it and they have good reason to be, if it turns out like they hope then you'll have a formidable boat on your hands (eventual PHRF/IRC ratings nonwithstanding)


slight hijack....
I heard Rod J was going to go out on Avra. Did he this weekend?? or next weekend??please continue with your regularly scheduled programming


Rod J did indeed go out with Avra this past weekend and when I talked with him on Sunday he seemed very excited about how the boat performed with her newer new keel.

BD, I had a friendly wager with one of the crew of Avra about how many times they would wipe out on Sunday in the 15kt breezes and 3+ foot seas. My wallet is sad to say that my initial bet of 2 was off by 2. Yep, no round ups. I guess Rod J got lucky this time.

#83 Black Dog

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Posted 28 April 2010 - 12:58 AM

mmmm.....maybe i should get the chainsaw out this weekend....

#84 InNeedOfSomeRestraint

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Posted 28 April 2010 - 01:15 AM

mmmm.....maybe i should get the chainsaw out this weekend....


Actually it was the standard J/120 keel sans bulb that gave them so much trouble last year. This year they put a whole new one on and that seems to be doing better. That said I'm still not sure if it's worth the added .02 on their IRC rating compared to last year (1.115 in 2010 vs 1.095 in 2009)

#85 Alec's Left Nut

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Posted 28 April 2010 - 05:24 PM

With the comment about the Helm being able to control the backstay, what kind of arrangement will there be? Block/tackle or the usual stupid backstay mounted hydraulic unit a la 105 or 109?

I heard the philosophy behind this is since they're hard to adjust most people will not bother which then levels the playing field since the good guys will not benefit from micro backstay management and go that much slower. I call it lowest common denominator sailing and I'm so happy that J-Boats boosts all efforts to dumb down sailing. This is why I prefer Farr's almost perfect layout on the 30/40/45.

#86 mustang__1

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Posted 28 April 2010 - 05:34 PM

if you stand and drive, as i did, the backstay isnt totally difficult to deal with. still a pain in the ass though, particularly coming into the leeward mark. it would be good for jboats to put the pump on the pedestal or on the sides of the cockpit, etc, someplace easy to get to. This boat may be at the upper end of what a purchase/mechanical backstay can handle? But the US in general seems to like LCD boats eh? i mean, look at the transformation of the I420 to the club420. the resistance to modern boats like the 29er etc. this trend in youth boats i think sets the precedent for the kind of boats that end up being sailed afterwords.

#87 Alec's Left Nut

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Posted 28 April 2010 - 06:25 PM

Does J-Boats tend to go with Navtec mostly? I can't remember. Only split unit I know of such as what's in the Swan 42 is Holomatro.

A pedestal mounted unit would be a pain when throwing the main over as it could easily get caught on the handle...it's not an easy one. They'd have to mount a panel on either side of the cockpit sides in line with the traveller maybe. The handle would have to have a bungee taped to the top running to the rail, again, to keep a loop of the main from lassoing it.

I hope mainsheet is b&t like the 109 as the double winch set up may look cool but doesn't offer many advantages I can see. Some people do struggle to ease the coarse tune in a pinch, esp when you're stuck behind the wheel, so from a safety perspective you can take a loop out of the self tailer unless you opt to take the handle out, which is an unnecessary step in my view. The A35 and the X-34 have winches and shoelace for line. Looks like overkill.

I know a good owner who wants to get one hence all my thoughts of feathering my hopeful/eventual nest on the boat :-D

#88 mustang__1

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Posted 28 April 2010 - 06:32 PM

yeah, popping the course adjust on the 109 can be a huge bother at times. Generally if i was on main i tried to balance the fine adjust towards the bottom end so it could be blown a good amount. that combined with the traveler generally did the trick to depower the boat enough. My general thinking though is that if a puff that big was rolling through i should have had the time to get it out of the course adjust to be ready to ease it. If just day sailing i either didnt have it that loaded up anyway, or kept reserve in the traveler which was pretty effective in the 109. agreed on the trials of where to put the pump. Maybe facing down, with the attachment below the traveler bar? assuming this isnt going to be a german main sheet setup with the track on the floor, and will be B&T.

#89 Damp Freddie

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Posted 28 April 2010 - 07:52 PM

yeah, popping the course adjust on the 109 can be a huge bother at times. Generally if i was on main i tried to balance the fine adjust towards the bottom end so it could be blown a good amount. that combined with the traveler generally did the trick to depower the boat enough. My general thinking though is that if a puff that big was rolling through i should have had the time to get it out of the course adjust to be ready to ease it. If just day sailing i either didnt have it that loaded up anyway, or kept reserve in the traveler which was pretty effective in the 109. agreed on the trials of where to put the pump.



I liked the magic wheel on the Ker 37. A continuous twiddle to a wheel pump/ release is probably over kill on 37 ft boat of the 111s SA/disp though ( or is it 38?)

I hope the traveller and primary winch distance is better positioned than the 109: short handed compromise making a 36 foot boat quite tedious to tack up a short course as main man!

On the cost: I think they have shot themselves in the already creditcrunched foot: carbon. I mean the IMS 31 and the Sj320 performed entertainingly with alloy. An OD must appeal to the pockets of a whole variety of owners and syndicates.

#90 mustang__1

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Posted 28 April 2010 - 08:05 PM

how much extra is it in actuality though? havent at least one or two major spar manufacturers abandoned Al as it is? And ditto on the primary placement! i also think that the whole cabin should have been pushed forward a couple feet. Make the settees a few inches shorter, the space between the v-birth and the bulkhead smaller, etc. that cockpit got cramped very fast! Of course, with hull #1 already being done, these are probably already set for the 111... would probably be pretty costly to redesign the tooling now...

#91 Damp Freddie

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Posted 28 April 2010 - 08:41 PM

how much extra is it in actuality though? havent at least one or two major spar manufacturers abandoned Al as it is?


Probably a few who want to do the usual business strategy " seek higher value, IPR enhanced markets" : a great Harvard MBA strategy in the finance crisis.

There are other on costs to the boat and rig with carbon and also higher insurance costs.

I like carbon masts ( check stays on j125 are just so great to tweak) but at this size and cost it may take them some time to build an OD while the boat hovers around with different sail suits for optimisations to PHRF , ORCi and IRC. It is a lot dearer than the 105 and those sub prime related investments just don't pay off like they used to.....

Actually it may be a rater on ORCi !!! ?? !!!

<( Don't read a word I write , I am barking mad)>

#92 InNeedOfSomeRestraint

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Posted 29 April 2010 - 12:40 AM

Regarding hydraulic backstay adjusters the J/122 has what I consider to be the perfect setup. There is a panel on the front side of the pedestal which you use to crank down and release the backstay. The actual adjustment is done by a removable handle which is stored in holders mere inches away from the panel itself and can be done by a helmsman or mainsail trimmer by just leaning forward from their leeward-facing position on the rail. When you're not making adjustments you just pop the handle out (there's a 1/2" thick round nub on the end which slides into a 1/2" hole in a knob which protrudes 1 inch from the panel) and throw it into one of the holders so that it can't be snagged by a mainsheet mid-gybe. You just twist a knob to release pressure. Idiot proof and smart.

The best picture I could find online:

Posted Image

The hydraulic panel is in black and in this shot the removable handle in in the port side holder. I believe the 122 I sail on carries a spare in case someone decides to drop it over the side.

#93 dickie greenleaf

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Posted 29 April 2010 - 03:30 AM

Nice wheel. I'm hoping that the 111 comes with such a sexy little round thingy...

I'm also hoping for an interior that won't be all white-pressboard-shit.

Have I said that I want one lately.... all hangs on the interior, sadly, but my wife needs to feel at home too.

C'mon J.. don't disappoint!

DG

#94 mustang__1

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Posted 29 April 2010 - 04:01 AM

come on J, dont make it a floating condo!...


and yeah, INOSR, thats what i think they should/will do with the 111.

#95 Jambalaya

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Posted 29 April 2010 - 05:53 AM

Ali spars are fine, carbon's better but at a high price. Ali mast don't explode in the heat of the tropics and are more durable in general. Its a tough choice for manufacturers, if they boost the purchase price by making carbon standard they risk loosing sales, if you make it an option then there is no OD

The backstay adjuster system on the 105/109 (yes it's navtec) is one of the weaknesses on the boat - upwind in a blow the helm cannot adjust it without handing the wheel to the mainsheet trimmer and in any case the mainsheet trimmer would ideally be playing with it continually.

If you switch out the harken block for a spinlock on the mainsheet you can ease it really quickly, downside is they blocks only last a year (not expensive 30 quid, $50) and probably 105 is the biggest boat/main you can do this on

#96 Alec's Left Nut

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Posted 29 April 2010 - 09:16 AM

INOSR - that's not a bad set up, surprisingly easy to adjust for a J-Boat. I have a couple of ideas to improve it:

- leave the handle in full time so it doesn't end up on the wrong side of the pedestal when you need it most
- so you can adjust it from your normal trimming position on either board, add two ~3' carbon Holt tiller extensions to the top of the handle
- do you don't have to lean in to bleed off pressure with the central knob, install release buttons on either side of the cockpit

Guess what I just described? Yes that set up is perfection from the MT's point of view.

#97 JL92S

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Posted 29 April 2010 - 03:46 PM

Just a few things:

the handle can be tied to the hand rail on the pod with a lanyard

They should offer an option of either blocks or hydraulic adjuster similar to the elan 410

J boats generally offer wood trim like on the 109 where you can have a white interior or wood

A carbon rig with an aluminium boom and spreaders I think is a good compromise

And does anyone know if it's going to have a ridiculous furling unit or a foil?

#98 mustang__1

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Posted 29 April 2010 - 04:29 PM

INOSR - that's not a bad set up, surprisingly easy to adjust for a J-Boat. I have a couple of ideas to improve it:

- leave the handle in full time so it doesn't end up on the wrong side of the pedestal when you need it most
- so you can adjust it from your normal trimming position on either board, add two ~3' carbon Holt tiller extensions to the top of the handle
- do you don't have to lean in to bleed off pressure with the central knob, install release buttons on either side of the cockpit

Guess what I just described? Yes that set up is perfection from the MT's point of view.


hey, that almost sounds like some sort of outdated Farr boat! farr out man...

I think that if you did that setup, setting it up "upside down", with the arm facing down, would be the best way to go so that the main has less of a chance of snagging it.


J92s, hopefully they use a foil. I mean i have no dog at all in this fight, but i am so tired of fucking with furlers fuckung up.

#99 Footlong

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Posted 29 April 2010 - 08:04 PM

Regarding hydraulic backstay adjusters the J/122 has what I consider to be the perfect setup. There is a panel on the front side of the pedestal which you use to crank down and release the backstay. The actual adjustment is done by a removable handle which is stored in holders mere inches away from the panel itself and can be done by a helmsman or mainsail trimmer by just leaning forward from their leeward-facing position on the rail. When you're not making adjustments you just pop the handle out (there's a 1/2" thick round nub on the end which slides into a 1/2" hole in a knob which protrudes 1 inch from the panel) and throw it into one of the holders so that it can't be snagged by a mainsheet mid-gybe. You just twist a knob to release pressure. Idiot proof and smart.

The best picture I could find online:

Posted Image

The hydraulic panel is in black and in this shot the removable handle in in the port side holder. I believe the 122 I sail on carries a spare in case someone decides to drop it over the side.


Keep an eye on how the handle fits onto the 1/2 thick nub on the pump. If it hasn't broken yet, it's going to.

#100 dirty plumber

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Posted 29 April 2010 - 08:08 PM

I belive there will be one for viewing in Sag the 15th




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