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Ker40 - latest IRC weapon?


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#1 tuf-luf

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Posted 02 May 2010 - 12:50 PM

I've been biting my tounge over this for a couple weeks.

McConaghy building Ker's latest take on 40ft IRC machine.

Website: here.

Love the flush decks and tiller...and massively long prodder.

anybody interested...like me?

Pricing & options here.

#2 tuf-luf

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Posted 02 May 2010 - 12:56 PM

IRC TCC rumored to be round the 1.19x zone.

Displacement of only 4800kgs.

SPA 170 sq m - woohoo!!

#3 tuf-luf

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Posted 02 May 2010 - 12:57 PM

Here's the full spec sheet...

General Specification

� L.O.A 12.2 m
� Beam 4.15 m
� Draft 2.60 m
� Air Draft 1.62 m
� Displacement (lightship) 4800 kg
� Fresh Water Capacity 70 L
� Fuel Capacity 41 L
� Engine Power 20 Hp
� ISO Structural Cat. A
� ISAF OSR: Cat 1

Designers/Manufacturer

� Naval Architects: Ker Yacht Design
� Manufacture: McConaghy Boats

Sail Plan

� P 16.60 m
� E 5.30 m
� I 16.15 m
� J 4.75 m
� SPA 170 m2
� STL 6.75 m

Construction .

Light weight yet robust and stiff construction incorporating modern race boat build technologies.

A fully optimised structural design using advanced Finite Element Analyses techniques.

Design and constructed in accordance to ISO structural regulations to Class A with plan approval by Germanischer Lloyd.

� The hull and deck constructed from vacuum consolidated e-glass/epoxy/foam sandwich.

� Additional reinforcements in way of all deck fittings and other highly loaded areas

� The structural internals from vacuum consolidated e-glass/epoxy/foam with sandwich construction uni-directional fibre reinforcement.

� Non structural internal components are built from E-Glass/epoxy/foam sandwich construction

� Painted exterior hull and decks.

� Standard hull colour is mattehorn white.

� Deck and non skid colour is chevy white.

� Underwater paint is epoxy primer up to approximately 100mm above the waterline.

Deck Equipment .

Rigging
� 7/8ths, 2 Spreader Carbon Mast, with 20� of sweep on the spreaders from high modulus M40J carbon

� The carbon boom is a deep section for stiffness and lightness.

� Mast, boom and poles are painted in a clear lacquer, giving a gloss carbon finish.

� Detachable fixed bow sprit with bobstay.

� Harken Carbo foil.

� 2:1 Mainsail halyard, 1 fractional headsail halyard, 1 fractional wing halyard, 1 staysail halyard and 2 masthead spinnaker halyards

� Rod kicker with integral purchase system for a final ratio of 38:1

� Simple and effective external main sheet system lead direct to main sheet winches

� Transverse jib tracks with efficient up/down and in/out controls

� Dedicated backstay winches

� Single or split backstay options

� Integrated composite chain plates

� Headstay attachment to accommodate load cell.

Winches and Deck Gear
� 2 Primary winches Harken B48.2
� 2 Pit winches Harken B44.2 ST
� 2 Main sheet winches Harken B 44.2 ST
� 2 Backstay winches Harken B 32.2 ST
� 4 Aluminium Lock in Winch Handles
� All tracks, cars and purchase systems from race boat specification Harken parts
� Spinlock clutches along with custom organisers

Safety on Deck
� 1 Set of stainless steel pulpits
� 2 Stainless steel aft pushpits
� Double life line with Stainless steel stanchions
� 1 Stainless steel CL stanchion aft
� Foredeck toe rails to ORC standards
� Clipping on points using Wichard folding pad eyes to ISAF OSR standards.

Foils .

Keel Fin and Bulb
A generously sized deep �T� shaped lead bulb keel with a high Ballast to Displacement ratio.

Keel and Keel attachment is in accordance to ISO structural regulations to Class A with plan approval by Germanischer Lloyd

� Deep SG Iron fin keel

� Lead T-Bulb.

� Highly structurally efficient anodized aluminium alloy keel structure transferring keel loading to boat structure

� Fin and Bulb are delivered faired, primed and topcoated.

Steering System
The Rudder is a deep draft blade type, with a carbon stock and self aligning roller bearings

� Carbon fibre rudder stock.

� Carbon fibre tiller (twin wheels optional).

� Bottom bearing -Water tight self aligning roller bearing with rudder retaining ring.

� Top bearing -Water tight self aligning roller bearing.

Interior .

� Designed to meet ORC, IMS and IRC regulations

� Constructed from light weight e-glass/foam mouldings

� Dedicated navigation station with consideration given to the use of the latest navigation aids and equipment

� Galley with two �camping gas� style burners and sink with manual fresh water pump

� 4 netting style bunk tops strung between bunk fronts and hull side with zip access to below for stowage

� 4 pipe cots and associated tackle
� Centreline fore hatch
� 2 clear dinghy hatches in the cockpit sides to allow for rope stowage

� Engine box with access to engine and integrated bottom steps

� Free hanging composite top steps

� Composite enclosure surrounding keel frame

� Plumed heads located fwds of mast bulkhead

Engine .

� 20hp Volvo Penta diesel engine

� Transmission Sail Drive

� Folding 2 bladed �racing� style prop

� Spinlock flush throttle control mounted on stbd side of cockpit

� Below deck engine instrument panel

� 41 litre rigid plastic fuel tank

Electrical .

� Red/white cabin lighting in saloon, galley, heads and navigation areas

� 12 volt DC switch panel and battery indicator mounted by the Chart Table

� Battery isolator/selection switch mounted on Engine Box

� 1x 65 AH gel type batteries & 1 x 17 AH battery for engine start

� 12 V electrical panel for Engine, with fuel gauge, rev counter and start/stop switches mounted close to the engine

� Navigation lights on pushpit and pulpit, steaming light and windex light on rig



Plumbing .

� Manual tap at galley sink

� Plumbed in seawater toilet

� 2 Manual bilge pump one cockpit one below deck

� Flexible 70 litre water tank behind bunk fronts



#4 JL92S

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Posted 02 May 2010 - 01:12 PM

i want one

#5 tuf-luf

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Posted 02 May 2010 - 01:14 PM

Why? Details.

#6 MKF

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Posted 02 May 2010 - 01:17 PM

Like it, would be a nice boat for Asia...what is the pricing cannot open...

If you get yourself and one other to go ahead, I will most likely join if rating and specs all match.

MKF

#7 tuf-luf

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Posted 02 May 2010 - 01:23 PM

Sorry, iPad and SA not getting along yet.

Here is pricing link: http://ker40.com/ima... 21.04.2010.pdf

Don't ask me why base price is in $ (assuming USD) and options are in Euro.

We need to talk.

#8 tuf-luf

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Posted 02 May 2010 - 01:36 PM

Like it, would be a nice boat for Asia...what is the pricing cannot open...

If you get yourself and one other to go ahead, I will most likely join if rating and specs all match.

MKF


Why do you think it would perform well in Asia? Are you talking "light air Asia" or mid-teens TWS Asia?

Details please.

#9 tuf-luf

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Posted 02 May 2010 - 01:51 PM

Sorry for the broken links.

Here's the website front page: http://ker40.com/index.html

#10 punter

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Posted 02 May 2010 - 01:56 PM

Launch it!!!

#11 CrushDigital

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Posted 02 May 2010 - 02:09 PM

It looks like a ton of fun but also doesn't seem like a boat for someone without an extremely dedicated and reliable crew.

#12 Ego Ergo

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Posted 02 May 2010 - 02:29 PM

What is "Air Draft"?

#13 Monkey

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Posted 02 May 2010 - 02:33 PM

What is "Air Draft"?

It's the height of a bridge at which your mast would go "crunch" if you tried to sail under it. ;)

#14 Presuming Ed

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Posted 02 May 2010 - 02:35 PM

Looks very much a development of the 11.5. Wonder what New Wave think of this development.

And does this take anything away from McConaghy's 36? Enough differentiation for the two classes to co-exist?

#15 Presuming Ed

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Posted 02 May 2010 - 02:39 PM

What is "Air Draft"?

It's the height of a bridge at which your mast would go "crunch" if you tried to sail under it.

Which is what I would think. But an air draft of 1.62m? Would indicate that they're either a) thinking of something else, or b) there's a typo there.
If a) then freeboard? Height of hull from bottom of canoe body to top of coachroof (such as it is)?

#16 Jambalaya

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Posted 02 May 2010 - 02:53 PM

Very nice. Price seems attractive, on-the-water $425 plus tax ? Pity the outlook still so uncertain, I could definitely see my self with one.

Air Draft - that is an odd term, I assume that's free board given the number but normally that's the measurement to the mast head from the water ?

Also what's a wing halyard ?

Not totally convinced with tillers on this size of boat and possibly too small for twin wheels

Sprit: STL/J ratio looks standard, similar to J's

I like the rig and what looks to be a free floating jib sheeting system. Twin backstay winches, so no hydraulics and thus control from mainsheet position which is a slight negative (backstay trimmed by tactitian?)

Looks good for inshore and passage racing

No money wasted on interior fit out, just the basics.

Hey tuffie, you couldn't help but mention the new toy ! Saw one last week, owner was very jealously guarding it so it was look but don't touch, definitely on the must have list.

Crushdigital, Ker boats generally need a good crew and helm to get the best out of them, this will be the same.

#17 Presuming Ed

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Posted 02 May 2010 - 03:12 PM

Also what's a wing halyard ?


My assumption is that rather than 2 fractional foresail halyards, with the two sheaves either side of the mast centreline, there's a main centreline halyard and then the secondary halyard offset to the side. Like the main/wing (aka get you home) engines on large trawler mobos.

#18 JenBee

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Posted 02 May 2010 - 09:06 PM

Why do builder/design sites so often not show the keel etc. - are potential owners not interested in what is under the water?

#19 Gorn FRANTIC!!

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Posted 02 May 2010 - 10:00 PM

I'm assuming all the prices on the site are in $USD?

#20 Alec's Left Nut

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Posted 02 May 2010 - 10:34 PM

no swing keel eh? is the past now behind us in the sub-60 foot market? is it just a matter of a better rating system? or is the engineering not there yet?

reminds me of a Farr 36

#21 1sailor

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Posted 03 May 2010 - 12:33 AM

Single, top-mast backstay seems to imply old-school mainsail, not the current 'square top' like the Soto 40 ?

A bit more money than the Soto... Tuffie, after looking at the numbers how do you compare it to the Soto ? Will it be as fast ?

#22 point

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Posted 03 May 2010 - 12:37 AM

I know of some eyes that are set on this prize from downunder.

#23 Wandering Geo

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Posted 03 May 2010 - 12:41 AM

Certainly looks good, but won't it be in competition with this other McConaghy product?
Attached File  McConaghy-M36-Update1-01.pdf   218.37K   256 downloads
Seem very similar in concept/size.
Are they trying to corber the market for no frills inshore racers



#24 Gorn FRANTIC!!

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Posted 03 May 2010 - 01:43 AM

Most importantly in all of this...WHERE ARE THE POLARS!!!

#25 sclero

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Posted 03 May 2010 - 01:57 AM

The Ker 40 is the same as the 11.5, in the photo on the website tuffie posted is the 11.5 located in LIS. It did pretty well last year at the AYC fall series despite a pretty significant gear failure.

#26 savoir

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Posted 03 May 2010 - 02:07 AM

Certainly looks good, but won't it be in competition with this other McConaghy product?
Attached File  McConaghy-M36-Update1-01.pdf   218.37K   256 downloads
Seem very similar in concept/size.
Are they trying to corber the market for no frills inshore racers


It's hard to see the 36 rating well enough to be competitive. It is so similar to the Farr 36 which never rated or sold too well.

Everyone ( see the Soto 40 ) is falling over themselves to be the new Farr 40. Only one will make it but which one ? ? ?

Of the two McConaghy boats you would expect the 40 to sell better because the prospective owner knows it will rate.

#27 Ballast Technician

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Posted 03 May 2010 - 03:03 AM

IRC TCC rumored to be round the 1.19x zone.


Well, that is the critical question IMNSHO. Any info on trial certs (although we know by now not to rely too much on those...)?

Looks hot - would be seriously interested if it rates ok under IRC.

#28 Ballast Technician

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Posted 03 May 2010 - 03:08 AM


Certainly looks good, but won't it be in competition with this other McConaghy product?
Attached File  McConaghy-M36-Update1-01.pdf   218.37K   256 downloads
Seem very similar in concept/size.
Are they trying to corber the market for no frills inshore racers


It's hard to see the 36 rating well enough to be competitive. It is so similar to the Farr 36 which never rated or sold too well.

Everyone ( see the Soto 40 ) is falling over themselves to be the new Farr 40. Only one will make it but which one ? ? ?

Of the two McConaghy boats you would expect the 40 to sell better because the prospective owner knows it will rate.


+1. Two boats aimed at very different markets - OD for the McC36 and handicap (specifically IRC) for the Ker. Neither would do too well in the other's area.

Love the McC36OD concept, but (as noted in the Soto 40 thread) it will be a tough sell in Asia/IRC world without critical mass for a OD fleet at its price point.

#29 mustang__1

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Posted 03 May 2010 - 03:29 AM

wonder why they went with single backstay? how much would a rating hit be for runners and a squarehead? i suppose that wouldnt be a hard thing to change though, relatively speaking.

#30 Ballast Technician

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Posted 03 May 2010 - 03:34 AM

Not totally convinced with tillers on this size of boat and possibly too small for twin wheels


Why do you say that? Tiller is generally the choice for getting anything around the cans/inshore racing (including Farr 40s and TPs). For the offshore/multi-day stuff wheel(s) might be the preference. For the latter, I much prefer the wins wheel set-up to having a big wagon wheel - and McC makes damn very ones. Don't think it is too small for twin wheels - lots of similar size/smaller boats (Bush/Mills 40s, A40, even the SC37) have got twin-wheels.

#31 dacapo

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Posted 03 May 2010 - 10:15 AM

The Ker 40 is the same as the 11.5, in the photo on the website tuffie posted is the 11.5 located in LIS. It did pretty well last year at the AYC fall series despite a pretty significant gear failure.



and it got beat by a Farr 40 this past weekend

#32 tuf-luf

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Posted 03 May 2010 - 10:41 AM


The Ker 40 is the same as the 11.5, in the photo on the website tuffie posted is the 11.5 located in LIS. It did pretty well last year at the AYC fall series despite a pretty significant gear failure.



and it got beat by a Farr 40 this past weekend


That may be so but that yacht wasn't a Ker40. Was that under IRC rule or PHRF? How did the crews compare on competency/skill?

Sclero - the 11.5 is 0.7m shorter than the Ker40 which is actually 12.2m. It is similar but has been tweaked by Ker Design to, I assume, better perform than then 11.5 (which, as I understand it, was largely and IRC update of the 11.3... which is now how many years old? 7 or 8?).

Not sure why Ker/McConaghy have chosen to show the 11.5 image on the Ker40 website as it does cause confusion. Suppose they will change this once one pops out the shed at McConaghy China.

#33 tuf-luf

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Posted 03 May 2010 - 10:51 AM

Single, top-mast backstay seems to imply old-school mainsail, not the current 'square top' like the Soto 40 ?

A bit more money than the Soto... Tuffie, after looking at the numbers how do you compare it to the Soto ? Will it be as fast ?


I doubt the Ker40 yacht will be as fast as the Soto40 (especially downhill in 15-20kts TWS... above 20kts the Ker40 might be more stable) but it will rate a TON better on IRC. We're talking a 1.19x vs 1.25x here.

The rig is taller on the Ker40 too and the fathead of the main is not as pronounced as the Soto40's.

No hiking overhangs on the Ker40 as well.

These all make the K40 more marketable for mixed fleet racing (under many rules) whereas the Soto40 was - as we have all heard several times - designed for OD.

#34 Ballast Technician

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Posted 03 May 2010 - 10:54 AM



The Ker 40 is the same as the 11.5, in the photo on the website tuffie posted is the 11.5 located in LIS. It did pretty well last year at the AYC fall series despite a pretty significant gear failure.



and it got beat by a Farr 40 this past weekend


That may be so but that yacht wasn't a Ker40.

Sclero - the 11.5 is 0.7m shorter than the Ker40 which is actually 12.2m. It is similar but has been tweaked by Ker Design to, I assume, better perform than then 11.5 (which, as I understand it, was largely and IRC update of the 11.3... which is now how many years old? 7 or 8?).

Not sure why Ker/McConaghy have chosen to show the 11.5 image on the Ker40 website as it does cause confusion. Suppose they will change this once one pops out the shed at McConaghy China.


Indeed, Ker40 should be quite different from the 11.5, which itself basically was just an 11.3 with a bowsprit stuck on and a wider beam/transom.

#35 doghouse

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Posted 03 May 2010 - 02:30 PM

Most importantly in all of this...WHERE ARE THE POLARS!!!


This.


#36 tuf-luf

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Posted 03 May 2010 - 02:47 PM


Most importantly in all of this...WHERE ARE THE POLARS!!!


This.


Is there a doc coming DH?

#37 B30

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Posted 03 May 2010 - 06:07 PM




The Ker 40 is the same as the 11.5, in the photo on the website tuffie posted is the 11.5 located in LIS. It did pretty well last year at the AYC fall series despite a pretty significant gear failure.



and it got beat by a Farr 40 this past weekend


That may be so but that yacht wasn't a Ker40.

Sclero - the 11.5 is 0.7m shorter than the Ker40 which is actually 12.2m. It is similar but has been tweaked by Ker Design to, I assume, better perform than then 11.5 (which, as I understand it, was largely and IRC update of the 11.3... which is now how many years old? 7 or 8?).

Not sure why Ker/McConaghy have chosen to show the 11.5 image on the Ker40 website as it does cause confusion. Suppose they will change this once one pops out the shed at McConaghy China.


Indeed, Ker40 should be quite different from the 11.5, which itself basically was just an 11.3 with a bowsprit stuck on and a wider beam/transom.

From what I understand the statement above is completely wrong. The 11.5 is a completely new design from the 11.3 and the Ker 40 is a direct developement of the 11.5. The 11.5 fills the same niche as the 11.3, but share little else.

#38 Presuming Ed

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Posted 03 May 2010 - 08:50 PM

From what I understand the statement above is completely wrong. The 11.5 is a completely new design from the 11.3 and the Ker 40 is a direct developement of the 11.5. The 11.5 fills the same niche as the 11.3, but share little else.


11.3 and 11.5 share spars (except spin pole, obviously).

"However, by the time that Ker was contacted the project had progressed to where a new set of Ker 11.3 spars and sails were already built; no problem, Ker simply drew a new boat under the existing sail plan. Hence the Ker 11.5 was born."

http://www.newwaveya...rse_Ker11.5.pdf

#39 doghouse

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Posted 03 May 2010 - 11:27 PM



Most importantly in all of this...WHERE ARE THE POLARS!!!


This.


Is there a doc coming DH?


Waiting on a reply at the moment. Will advise as soon as I hear


#40 tuf-luf

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Posted 04 May 2010 - 12:28 AM

wonder why they went with single backstay? how much would a rating hit be for runners and a squarehead? i suppose that wouldnt be a hard thing to change though, relatively speaking.


Pretty sure the 40 does have split backstays and a squaretop mainsail Stang. Spec sheet says "Single or split backstay options" and drawing in same shows sq-top.

We need Jason Ker to jump in and answer some questions.
- why did you design the Ker40 with only one hull of the Ker11.5 in the water?
- was the 11.5 meant purely as a one-off for the US customer (Hunt Lawrence)?
- how does this sailplan differ from the 11.5 or should we not even be drawing comparisons between the two?
- could rig/design support a larger 1A sail for lighter breezes (6-10 kts TWS) 190-200 sq m?
- is the rigging rod or dyform or PBO? this isn't stated in the spec sheet - God, I hope it isn't PBO

Some comments/questions for the builder:
- why is there a "racing winch" option? - this is a racing yacht - one would think a yacht like this would be all-racing out of the factory - very strange
- mast jack, mast step adjuster and line bags should also all be standard equipment in the base price!
- can engine be Yanmar instead of Volvo?

#41 tuf-luf

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Posted 04 May 2010 - 01:37 AM

About time we inserted one of the design images.

Posted Image

#42 tuf-luf

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Posted 04 May 2010 - 01:39 AM

And a couple others...

Posted Image

Posted Image

#43 tuf-luf

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Posted 04 May 2010 - 01:41 AM

Interior, stringers and ring frame lay-up...

Posted Image

Posted Image

#44 mustang__1

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Posted 04 May 2010 - 01:46 AM

the photos you posted show single, but if the spec sheets otherwise then power to them.

#45 tuf-luf

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Posted 04 May 2010 - 01:46 AM

Sailplan and specs...

Attached Files



#46 tuf-luf

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Posted 04 May 2010 - 01:47 AM

the photos you posted show single, but if the spec sheets otherwise then power to them.


Read page two here mate: http://ker40.com/ima..._21.04.2010.pdf

#47 mustang__1

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Posted 04 May 2010 - 01:58 AM

yep. they should have shown both in the renderings.

#48 Gorn FRANTIC!!

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Posted 04 May 2010 - 01:58 AM


Single, top-mast backstay seems to imply old-school mainsail, not the current 'square top' like the Soto 40 ?

A bit more money than the Soto... Tuffie, after looking at the numbers how do you compare it to the Soto ? Will it be as fast ?


I doubt the Ker40 yacht will be as fast as the Soto40 (especially downhill in 15-20kts TWS... above 20kts the Ker40 might be more stable) but it will rate a TON better on IRC. We're talking a 1.19x vs 1.25x here.

Based on the Ker being the heavier of the 2 or do you have more insights here Tuffie?? I know the IRC numbers don't give a proper comparison as the S40 has the huge overhangs which get murdered under IRC :)

#49 Ferret

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Posted 04 May 2010 - 04:11 AM

I've been biting my tounge over this for a couple weeks.

McConaghy building Ker's latest take on 40ft IRC machine.

Website: here.

Love the flush decks and tiller...and massively long prodder.

anybody interested...like me?

Pricing & options here.


Have to say mate, having had a good nose round both websites last week, I'm leaning more towards this than the Soto40 purely on the rating. You know what Keith had to keep doing crew-wise to get the tin with the Farr a few years back. Was a great programme to be on but sailing a OD boat in an IRC fleet almost always puts you on the back foot from the start.

#50 Ferret

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Posted 04 May 2010 - 04:18 AM

It looks like a ton of fun but also doesn't seem like a boat for someone without an extremely dedicated and reliable crew.


Yeah and your point is?... Posted Image

Tuffie,
Punter's already 'launching it'...
Navigator ready and raring to go. Where are the Polars?

#51 Ferret

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Posted 04 May 2010 - 04:33 AM

Interior, stringers and ring frame lay-up...

Posted Image




Questions more for the designer & builder than your good self (not show stoppers)...

Not a huge fan of sideways opening nav tables... is there a solution (a latch?) for stopping the contents emptying themselves into the galley if caught out and heavily heeled (other than the obvious 'don't get caught out')?

Also (cos you know me!) does the instrument panel sit just above the chart table so that a chart CAN actually be laid out on it (presumably so), or is it all moulded into one (not obvious from this shot) so as to give a cursory nod to old school nav whilst intending she's sailed purely on electronics?

#52 DickDastardly

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Posted 04 May 2010 - 05:46 AM

I'm surprised at the displacement which flies in the face of what's been fast in IRC in this size range over recent years. Looks like a weapon, I'd guess IRC DLR will be around 105, vs 122 for a Farr 40 for example and it's clearly a lot more powerful. Perhaps Jason knows more about where IRC might be headed than the rest of us? If so it's heading in a good direction.

And I'd concur on the sideways Nav desk too, but I wonder how often will the Navigator be sitting down there anyway? Not much I suspect...the base assumption on a boat of this spec would have to be a wireless screen upstairs.

#53 The Advocate

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Posted 04 May 2010 - 06:16 AM

Mmmmm, wonder if it would knock off those pesky BW 11's?

#54 williwaw

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Posted 04 May 2010 - 06:50 AM

All these Ker boats are fast and competitive.

Last winter 3 Ker 11.3 were for sale for at least 2 years, they sold for around 50-60K . Very competitive still under IRC and ORC so these new owners have themselves a bargain race boat.

#55 wanchaibelle

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Posted 04 May 2010 - 06:58 AM

I'm surprised at the displacement which flies in the face of what's been fast in IRC in this size range over recent years. Looks like a weapon, I'd guess IRC DLR will be around 105, vs 122 for a Farr 40 for example and it's clearly a lot more powerful. Perhaps Jason knows more about where IRC might be headed than the rest of us? If so it's heading in a good direction.

Absolutely. It would be a real treat to be able to own a fast 35-40 footer that wouldn't be a no-hoper under IRC. TP52s are weapons under IRC, with sail area/(dspl^0.66) ratios of about 40/90 upwind/downwind, but winning IRC 35-40 footers have ratios around 24/47. Why can't we go fast and win too? I understand the "protect the majority of the fleet, who sail Beneteaus" argument, but surely there is at least some wiggle room so that fast 40s weren't completely rated out of it in all conditions for short course racing? Don't want ORC/IMS, maybe time to re-introduce IRM for boats below a certain DLR curve...
Anyway, fingers crossed...

#56 mezaire

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Posted 04 May 2010 - 08:29 AM

Mmmmm, wonder if it would knock off those pesky BW 11's?


If it actually rates 1.19X as reported compared to the BW11's 1.184, it could be pretty good. Still gotta get nearly 2min an hour over the optimised Farr 40 though!

#57 jkdubs808

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Posted 04 May 2010 - 08:42 AM

Still gotta get nearly 2min an hour over the optimised Farr 40 though!



By the looks of it do you boys think it will pull that off? Farr 40s are pretty quick, sailed on many of them.

Looks sexy as hell, love the prod, just gotta remind the skipper its there so he doesn't tear it off ducking starboard tackers. I agree, it surely does look like a weapon, but will it be in IRC is the question.

Whats it got below the waterline for blades Tuffie?

Anyone seen any polars yet?

dubz

#58 The Advocate

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Posted 04 May 2010 - 09:15 AM

Not sure if the 40 will be the weapon of choice next year with the General Lee being launched shortly.

#59 BAR KARATE

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Posted 04 May 2010 - 09:25 AM

"General Lee" ............ Hmmmmmmmm, Please explain :unsure:

#60 Pleb

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Posted 04 May 2010 - 09:57 AM


Mmmmm, wonder if it would knock off those pesky BW 11's?


If it actually rates 1.19X as reported compared to the BW11's 1.184, it could be pretty good. Still gotta get nearly 2min an hour over the optimised Farr 40 though!


Do you mean the Farr 40 that sits massivly lower in the water than the other 2 Farr 40's, Weights a few hundred Kg's more (with the same keel weight) and has alot less working sail area?? Sure it has had great results in WA, might have had something to do with the crew and the fact it races Marten 49's and an IMS Farr 47 and 49

Interesting to see how the New BW 11 goes being a foot longer than the other one and having more instruments than a NASA program and more people involved with sail lofts than China Sail Factory.

Back on Topic. I certainly would prefer this over the Soto. Attractive IRC number but need polars to do some Math.

People may be interested to know that the SOTO class mainsail square top is 1.5m but its IRC size should be 700mm-900mm depending on the average TWS of your area. Even with the 900mm SQTop main, Rod rigging and a bit more weight with Batteries etc it still rates in the mid 1.2's.

Mind you ORCi is a different story.

#61 KnockinShop

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Posted 04 May 2010 - 09:58 AM

Questions more for the designer & builder than your good self (not show stoppers)...

Not a huge fan of sideways opening nav tables... is there a solution (a latch?) for stopping the contents emptying themselves into the galley if caught out and heavily heeled (other than the obvious 'don't get caught out')?

Also (cos you know me!) does the instrument panel sit just above the chart table so that a chart CAN actually be laid out on it (presumably so), or is it all moulded into one (not obvious from this shot) so as to give a cursory nod to old school nav whilst intending she's sailed purely on electronics?


I wouldn't have thought the chart table would really be used for charts etc anymore. The computer may be sealed in there, and the table used in emergencies, but charts, information etc should all be fed up to the deckman/racevision, or the technology of choice!

#62 tuf-luf

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Posted 04 May 2010 - 10:07 AM


It looks like a ton of fun but also doesn't seem like a boat for someone without an extremely dedicated and reliable crew.


Yeah and your point is?... Posted Image

Tuffie,
Punter's already 'launching it'...
Navigator ready and raring to go. Where are the Polars?


Word!

Nothing I enjoy more than a new ride that makes us work harder for any bullets. If anything, this will be much simpler than what we've been used to I believe. Clean, organized deck with very little mods req'd.

I just to find $500k to get it on the startline now! LOL!!

#63 tuf-luf

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Posted 04 May 2010 - 10:11 AM


Questions more for the designer & builder than your good self (not show stoppers)...

Not a huge fan of sideways opening nav tables... is there a solution (a latch?) for stopping the contents emptying themselves into the galley if caught out and heavily heeled (other than the obvious 'don't get caught out')?

Also (cos you know me!) does the instrument panel sit just above the chart table so that a chart CAN actually be laid out on it (presumably so), or is it all moulded into one (not obvious from this shot) so as to give a cursory nod to old school nav whilst intending she's sailed purely on electronics?


I wouldn't have thought the chart table would really be used for charts etc anymore. The computer may be sealed in there, and the table used in emergencies, but charts, information etc should all be fed up to the deckman/racevision, or the technology of choice!


You know not with whom you coverse mate. The Ferret is a naviguesser of immense vigilance.

Passage racing on electronic nav is ALWAYS backed by hard chart plotting. He may not be able to haul a mainsail singlehanded to the top in sub-10 secs but we've never hit anything with him on the dials... AND he's drawn an ace from the deck for tacticians on occasion. ;)

#64 gethighstayhigh

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Posted 04 May 2010 - 10:15 AM

It looks like a ton of fun but also doesn't seem like a boat for someone without an extremely dedicated and reliable crew.


You mean "Inebriated and deniable crew"???? Yeah.... that's us!

GHSH

#65 tuf-luf

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Posted 04 May 2010 - 10:24 AM



Single, top-mast backstay seems to imply old-school mainsail, not the current 'square top' like the Soto 40 ?

A bit more money than the Soto... Tuffie, after looking at the numbers how do you compare it to the Soto ? Will it be as fast ?


I doubt the Ker40 yacht will be as fast as the Soto40 (especially downhill in 15-20kts TWS... above 20kts the Ker40 might be more stable) but it will rate a TON better on IRC. We're talking a 1.19x vs 1.25x here.

Based on the Ker being the heavier of the 2 or do you have more insights here Tuffie?? I know the IRC numbers don't give a proper comparison as the S40 has the huge overhangs which get murdered under IRC :)


No more insight than you mate. My comment was based on the assumption - and would love to debate it - that the Soto40's lightness (600kgs less than the Ker40) will be highly advantageous downhill in sub-15 or 18 kts or so because it will still be as stable as the Ker40 and the water will still be reasonably flat.

When the breeze cranks up over 18kts (or maybe even lower depending on angles being sailed) the extra 600kgs on the Ker's keel will give it the stability edge whereas the Soto would be a gutfull to keep flat unless you've got 12 blokes on the wings...and this is not something I want to worry about, quite frankly.

Any thoughts to the contrary? Would love to put the IRC trial certs and the polars side-by-side and grind out some variances. This will come soon enough... I'm not that much in a hurry to part with 4-5 hundred grand just yet until we're further down the research path eh. ;)

Are you in the same mode too???


It looks like a ton of fun but also doesn't seem like a boat for someone without an extremely dedicated and reliable crew.


You mean "Inebriated and deniable crew"???? Yeah.... that's us!

GHSH


Fabulous action. :lol:

#66 mezaire

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Posted 04 May 2010 - 10:32 AM



Mmmmm, wonder if it would knock off those pesky BW 11's?


If it actually rates 1.19X as reported compared to the BW11's 1.184, it could be pretty good. Still gotta get nearly 2min an hour over the optimised Farr 40 though!


Do you mean the Farr 40 that sits massivly lower in the water than the other 2 Farr 40's, Weights a few hundred Kg's more (with the same keel weight) and has alot less working sail area?? Sure it has had great results in WA, might have had something to do with the crew and the fact it races Marten 49's and an IMS Farr 47 and 49

Interesting to see how the New BW 11 goes being a foot longer than the other one and having more instruments than a NASA program and more people involved with sail lofts than China Sail Factory.


I realise that WA doesn't have the strongest IRC fleet going around but it was a conversation regarding WA or WA bound boats so the modified f40 is the benchmark, and a bloody well sailed benchmark it is at that!!! Always wanted to know how well it would do in the East with the same crew/helmsman. Guess we'll never know once General Lee hits the water!!

#67 Ballast Technician

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Posted 04 May 2010 - 10:39 AM

"General Lee" ............ Hmmmmmmmm, Please explain :unsure:


The new Bakewell-White 11 being built/finished by Davie Norris at the moment. Program web-site here and it was recently features as 'what is it' subject on the front page. Follow-up to the BW 36 footer (one foot shorter) Alfresco, which at IRC TCC 1.184 has had some decent results even under IRC, mostly in coastal races that had some long reaching legs in them.

#68 Ballast Technician

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Posted 04 May 2010 - 10:48 AM

Mmmmm, wonder if it would knock off those pesky BW 11's?


Yes, that will be really interesting to see - have been drooling over the BW36/37 for a while and would love to see how the Ker40 compares. IIRC, Alfresco rated 1.184 under IRC, not sure whether rating for the General has been confirmed yet (might get a couple of bips just for the point job ;)). Also, I seem to recall that there were some aspects of Alfresco that were not optimized for rating/speed but rather for short-handed sailing and for bringing corporate guests since it is a sponsored program.

#69 Gorn FRANTIC!!

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Posted 04 May 2010 - 10:51 AM

No more insight than you mate. My comment was based on the assumption - and would love to debate it - that the Soto40's lightness (600kgs less than the Ker40) will be highly advantageous downhill in sub-15 or 18 kts or so because it will still be as stable as the Ker40 and the water will still be reasonably flat.

When the breeze cranks up over 18kts (or maybe even lower depending on angles being sailed) the extra 600kgs on the Ker's keel will give it the stability edge whereas the Soto would be a gutfull to keep flat unless you've got 12 blokes on the wings...and this is not something I want to worry about, quite frankly.

Any thoughts to the contrary? Would love to put the IRC trial certs and the polars side-by-side and grind out some variances. This will come soon enough... I'm not that much in a hurry to part with 4-5 hundred grand just yet until we're further down the research path eh. ;)

Are you in the same mode too???

It would be interesting to know how much of the extra weight in the K40 was in the bulb and how much is hull weight due to being built from e-glass and not carbon, no doubt some would have to be in the bulb, you'd be hard push to put an extra 600kg in the layup unless it was built from cement.

Also agree that the K40 would be stiffer uphill, crew weight not soo much an issue with us, our current crew weight for the F40 I race on weekly is around the 900kg+ mark...don't that thing go uphill like a train when it blows :D

I think you're spot on with what you're saying performance wise, but think the K40 may have the edge overall with uphill speed/stability, and probably quicker reaching as well with the higher stability, I don't read much into IRC numbers, as we know, just because boat A has a higher rating than boat B, it doesn't mean thats how it shapes up in the real world, like you I'm hanging to see the polars, that would give a more accurate comparison.

Plenty of tire kicking going on atm, like you no real desire to rush into things as yet.

Also, the combination of McConaghy and Ker is hard to pass up, both have serious runs on the board with past boats, and I see this as being a very good partnership

#70 LongTim

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Posted 04 May 2010 - 10:54 AM



Mmmmm, wonder if it would knock off those pesky BW 11's?


If it actually rates 1.19X as reported compared to the BW11's 1.184, it could be pretty good. Still gotta get nearly 2min an hour over the optimised Farr 40 though!


Do you mean the Farr 40 that sits massivly lower in the water than the other 2 Farr 40's, Weights a few hundred Kg's more (with the same keel weight) and has alot less working sail area?? Sure it has had great results in WA, might have had something to do with the crew and the fact it races Marten 49's and an IMS Farr 47 and 49

Interesting to see how the New BW 11 goes being a foot longer than the other one and having more instruments than a NASA program and more people involved with sail lofts than China Sail Factory.

Back on Topic. I certainly would prefer this over the Soto. Attractive IRC number but need polars to do some Math.

People may be interested to know that the SOTO class mainsail square top is 1.5m but its IRC size should be 700mm-900mm depending on the average TWS of your area. Even with the 900mm SQTop main, Rod rigging and a bit more weight with Batteries etc it still rates in the mid 1.2's.

Mind you ORCi is a different story.


Pure speculation. No Soto 40s have been measured for IRC. But with the mods you have suggested our best advice, from a number of people in the know, is that the Soto 40 would IRC about 1.19. But the three trial certificates that have been done all have been different. We will only know the right answer when one has been measured. Then again, will we be racing IRC in three years time? All good feedback. Tim




#71 point

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Posted 04 May 2010 - 10:55 AM

As a side note... two more 11.3's just came off a ship in Port Kembla destined for their new homes in Oz, so three downunder now.

#72 Ballast Technician

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Posted 04 May 2010 - 11:30 AM




Mmmmm, wonder if it would knock off those pesky BW 11's?


If it actually rates 1.19X as reported compared to the BW11's 1.184, it could be pretty good. Still gotta get nearly 2min an hour over the optimised Farr 40 though!


Do you mean the Farr 40 that sits massivly lower in the water than the other 2 Farr 40's, Weights a few hundred Kg's more (with the same keel weight) and has alot less working sail area?? Sure it has had great results in WA, might have had something to do with the crew and the fact it races Marten 49's and an IMS Farr 47 and 49

Interesting to see how the New BW 11 goes being a foot longer than the other one and having more instruments than a NASA program and more people involved with sail lofts than China Sail Factory.

Back on Topic. I certainly would prefer this over the Soto. Attractive IRC number but need polars to do some Math.

People may be interested to know that the SOTO class mainsail square top is 1.5m but its IRC size should be 700mm-900mm depending on the average TWS of your area. Even with the 900mm SQTop main, Rod rigging and a bit more weight with Batteries etc it still rates in the mid 1.2's.

Mind you ORCi is a different story.


Pure speculation. No Soto 40s have been measured for IRC. But with the mods you have suggested our best advice, from a number of people in the know, is that the Soto 40 would IRC about 1.19. But the three trial certificates that have been done all have been different. We will only know the right answer when one has been measured. Then again, will we be racing IRC in three years time? All good feedback. Tim




Tim: 1.19 is HUGELY different from the mid 1.2 range that people have been assuming so far and would make the Soto 40 DRAMATICALLY more attractive to people like tuffie and me. Suggest that this should be fairly high on your list of priorities to confirm. Trial certs (let alone opinions of "people in the know") are often not worth the paper they are written on/the bytes they occupy in memory - case in point being the Farr 11s.

#73 The Advocate

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Posted 04 May 2010 - 11:55 AM




Mmmmm, wonder if it would knock off those pesky BW 11's?


If it actually rates 1.19X as reported compared to the BW11's 1.184, it could be pretty good. Still gotta get nearly 2min an hour over the optimised Farr 40 though!


Do you mean the Farr 40 that sits massivly lower in the water than the other 2 Farr 40's, Weights a few hundred Kg's more (with the same keel weight) and has alot less working sail area?? Sure it has had great results in WA, might have had something to do with the crew and the fact it races Marten 49's and an IMS Farr 47 and 49

Interesting to see how the New BW 11 goes being a foot longer than the other one and having more instruments than a NASA program and more people involved with sail lofts than China Sail Factory.


I realise that WA doesn't have the strongest IRC fleet going around but it was a conversation regarding WA or WA bound boats so the modified f40 is the benchmark, and a bloody well sailed benchmark it is at that!!! Always wanted to know how well it would do in the East with the same crew/helmsman. Guess we'll never know once General Lee hits the water!!

Any other comparisons you want to make?

Perhaps how Mandurah is a bigger hole than the Wolf Creek crater.

#74 paul gore

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Posted 04 May 2010 - 11:56 AM

The replacement of the hugely popular Farr 40 should come from current TOP grand prix designers such as JuanK, BC or JV. These are the only competitive designers nowadays, and the rest just follows. Just my humble opinion folks.

Paul Gore

#75 Ballast Technician

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Posted 04 May 2010 - 12:07 PM

The replacement of the hugely popular Farr 40 should come from current TOP grand prix designers such as JuanK, BC or JV. These are the only competitive designers nowadays, and the rest just follows. Just my humble opinion folks.

Paul Gore


Oh, this could get interesting - albeit probably deserving of its own thread.

Two quick comments:
  • It takes more than just a great design to have a successful OD boat - think decent class management, marketing reach, quality builders,...
  • No arguments with BC and JV being "top" designers, but Juan K!? And what about RP, Farr, etc?


#76 paul gore

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Posted 04 May 2010 - 12:18 PM

Oh, this could get interesting - albeit probably deserving of its own thread.

Two quick comments:
  • It takes more than just a great design to have a successful OD boat - think decent class management, marketing reach, quality builders,...
  • No arguments with BC and JV being "top" designers, but Juan K!? And what about RP, Farr, etc?
[/quote]

OK, have to admit Juan K is still too inconsistent to be considered in the top list..he still needs to prove himself in the next MedCup. A new thread is definitely worth it. 'something like what design will replace the Farr 40? '

#77 Chucky

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Posted 04 May 2010 - 12:21 PM




Mmmmm, wonder if it would knock off those pesky BW 11's?


If it actually rates 1.19X as reported compared to the BW11's 1.184, it could be pretty good. Still gotta get nearly 2min an hour over the optimised Farr 40 though!


Do you mean the Farr 40 that sits massivly lower in the water than the other 2 Farr 40's, Weights a few hundred Kg's more (with the same keel weight) and has alot less working sail area?? Sure it has had great results in WA, might have had something to do with the crew and the fact it races Marten 49's and an IMS Farr 47 and 49

Interesting to see how the New BW 11 goes being a foot longer than the other one and having more instruments than a NASA program and more people involved with sail lofts than China Sail Factory.

Back on Topic. I certainly would prefer this over the Soto. Attractive IRC number but need polars to do some Math.

People may be interested to know that the SOTO class mainsail square top is 1.5m but its IRC size should be 700mm-900mm depending on the average TWS of your area. Even with the 900mm SQTop main, Rod rigging and a bit more weight with Batteries etc it still rates in the mid 1.2's.

Mind you ORCi is a different story.


Pure speculation. No Soto 40s have been measured for IRC. But with the mods you have suggested our best advice, from a number of people in the know, is that the Soto 40 would IRC about 1.19. But the three trial certificates that have been done all have been different. We will only know the right answer when one has been measured. Then again, will we be racing IRC in three years time? All good feedback. Tim




It appears that IRC does not currently rate any of the light weight 40 footers as being competitive on the race track against the heavier 40 foot production boats (ie Beneslow 40, King 40 etc).

The Ker 40, Soto 40 etc are fast great fun boats which will not be IRC killers on a wind ward return race track. But if the race course is a passage race off the breeze, watch out as they are hard to beat on IRC. At the moment the only light weight (low DLR) which are favoured in IRC are the 50 to 60 footers.

#78 Ballast Technician

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Posted 04 May 2010 - 12:30 PM





Mmmmm, wonder if it would knock off those pesky BW 11's?


If it actually rates 1.19X as reported compared to the BW11's 1.184, it could be pretty good. Still gotta get nearly 2min an hour over the optimised Farr 40 though!


Do you mean the Farr 40 that sits massivly lower in the water than the other 2 Farr 40's, Weights a few hundred Kg's more (with the same keel weight) and has alot less working sail area?? Sure it has had great results in WA, might have had something to do with the crew and the fact it races Marten 49's and an IMS Farr 47 and 49

Interesting to see how the New BW 11 goes being a foot longer than the other one and having more instruments than a NASA program and more people involved with sail lofts than China Sail Factory.

Back on Topic. I certainly would prefer this over the Soto. Attractive IRC number but need polars to do some Math.

People may be interested to know that the SOTO class mainsail square top is 1.5m but its IRC size should be 700mm-900mm depending on the average TWS of your area. Even with the 900mm SQTop main, Rod rigging and a bit more weight with Batteries etc it still rates in the mid 1.2's.

Mind you ORCi is a different story.


Pure speculation. No Soto 40s have been measured for IRC. But with the mods you have suggested our best advice, from a number of people in the know, is that the Soto 40 would IRC about 1.19. But the three trial certificates that have been done all have been different. We will only know the right answer when one has been measured. Then again, will we be racing IRC in three years time? All good feedback. Tim




It appears that IRC does not currently rate any of the light weight 40 footers as being competitive on the race track against the heavier 40 foot production boats (ie Beneslow 40, King 40 etc).

The Ker 40, Soto 40 etc are fast great fun boats which will not be IRC killers on a wind ward return race track. But if the race course is a passage race off the breeze, watch out as they are hard to beat on IRC. At the moment the only light weight (low DLR) which are favoured in IRC are the 50 to 60 footers.


So we are back to repeating the conventional wisdom again? Yawn...
And note that even the Ker 11.3s (old design and not optimized/designed for IRC) have been competitive under IRC in certain conditions and when well-sailed.

#79 sclero

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Posted 04 May 2010 - 12:57 PM



The Ker 40 is the same as the 11.5, in the photo on the website tuffie posted is the 11.5 located in LIS. It did pretty well last year at the AYC fall series despite a pretty significant gear failure.



and it got beat by a Farr 40 this past weekend


That may be so but that yacht wasn't a Ker40. Was that under IRC rule or PHRF? How did the crews compare on competency/skill?

Sclero - the 11.5 is 0.7m shorter than the Ker40 which is actually 12.2m. It is similar but has been tweaked by Ker Design to, I assume, better perform than then 11.5 (which, as I understand it, was largely and IRC update of the 11.3... which is now how many years old? 7 or 8?).

Not sure why Ker/McConaghy have chosen to show the 11.5 image on the Ker40 website as it does cause confusion. Suppose they will change this once one pops out the shed at McConaghy China.


And the photos on the Ker 40 link are of the 11.5 Peacemaker, compare the sail number on the transom and you will see what I mean. The 40 might be a slightly different design, tweaked after some experience but its basically the same.

#80 LongTim

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Posted 04 May 2010 - 01:02 PM

If it actually rates 1.19X as reported compared to the BW11's 1.184, it could be pretty good. Still gotta get nearly 2min an hour over the optimised Farr 40 though!
[/quote]

Do you mean the Farr 40 that sits massivly lower in the water than the other 2 Farr 40's, Weights a few hundred Kg's more (with the same keel weight) and has alot less working sail area?? Sure it has had great results in WA, might have had something to do with the crew and the fact it races Marten 49's and an IMS Farr 47 and 49

Interesting to see how the New BW 11 goes being a foot longer than the other one and having more instruments than a NASA program and more people involved with sail lofts than China Sail Factory.

Back on Topic. I certainly would prefer this over the Soto. Attractive IRC number but need polars to do some Math.

People may be interested to know that the SOTO class mainsail square top is 1.5m but its IRC size should be 700mm-900mm depending on the average TWS of your area. Even with the 900mm SQTop main, Rod rigging and a bit more weight with Batteries etc it still rates in the mid 1.2's.

Mind you ORCi is a different story.
[/quote]

Pure speculation. No Soto 40s have been measured for IRC. But with the mods you have suggested our best advice, from a number of people in the know, is that the Soto 40 would IRC about 1.19. But the three trial certificates that have been done all have been different. We will only know the right answer when one has been measured. Then again, will we be racing IRC in three years time? All good feedback. Tim



[/quote]

Tim: 1.19 is HUGELY different from the mid 1.2 range that people have been assuming so far and would make the Soto 40 DRAMATICALLY more attractive to people like tuffie and me. Suggest that this should be fairly high on your list of priorities to confirm. Trial certs (let alone opinions of "people in the know") are often not worth the paper they are written on/the bytes they occupy in memory - case in point being the Farr 11s.
[/quote]


Taken on board. Absolutely. I wish I could get some clearer numbers. Frustrates the crap out of me. The variation in the trials is equally vexing. The US yacht is measured for ORCi this week and we are pushing for an IRC certificate. Believe me, as soon as I get a clear story on the IRC issue I will be RIGHT ON IT. The boat has everything going for it.... the thing's a rocketship, beautifully built, backed by some quality people, well priced. Just hard to get it across to people.... doing my HEAD in!!! AAAagagggghhh! Time for my tablets.....



#81 doghouse

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Posted 04 May 2010 - 01:37 PM

To All, I am down in the Florida Keys, and slightly incommunicado, so if any of you blokes can get your hands on the polars, please advise ASAP


#82 davethesailor

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Posted 04 May 2010 - 02:16 PM

I've been biting my tounge over this for a couple weeks.

McConaghy building Ker's latest take on 40ft IRC machine.

Website: here.

Love the flush decks and tiller...and massively long prodder.

anybody interested...like me?

Pricing & options here.


dude you should check the links you're posted: useless!

#83 davethesailor

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Posted 04 May 2010 - 02:36 PM

The Ker 40 is the same as the 11.5, in the photo on the website tuffie posted is the 11.5 located in LIS. It did pretty well last year at the AYC fall series despite a pretty significant gear failure.



Given your nick you're from somewhere in Italy or the like.

#84 tuf-luf

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Posted 04 May 2010 - 03:25 PM


I've been biting my tounge over this for a couple weeks.

McConaghy building Ker's latest take on 40ft IRC machine.

Website: here.

Love the flush decks and tiller...and massively long prodder.

anybody interested...like me?

Pricing & options here.


dude you should check the links you're posted: useless!


davethewhiner strikes again!

How about this: dude you should really READ the thread - the links were provided again... and they all work fine.

Wanker!

#85 tuf-luf

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Posted 04 May 2010 - 03:45 PM



No more insight than you mate. My comment was based on the assumption - and would love to debate it - that the Soto40's lightness (600kgs less than the Ker40) will be highly advantageous downhill in sub-15 or 18 kts or so because it will still be as stable as the Ker40 and the water will still be reasonably flat.

When the breeze cranks up over 18kts (or maybe even lower depending on angles being sailed) the extra 600kgs on the Ker's keel will give it the stability edge whereas the Soto would be a gutfull to keep flat unless you've got 12 blokes on the wings...and this is not something I want to worry about, quite frankly.

Any thoughts to the contrary? Would love to put the IRC trial certs and the polars side-by-side and grind out some variances. This will come soon enough... I'm not that much in a hurry to part with 4-5 hundred grand just yet until we're further down the research path eh. ;)

Are you in the same mode too???

It would be interesting to know how much of the extra weight in the K40 was in the bulb and how much is hull weight due to being built from e-glass and not carbon, no doubt some would have to be in the bulb, you'd be hard push to put an extra 600kg in the layup unless it was built from cement.

Also agree that the K40 would be stiffer uphill, crew weight not soo much an issue with us, our current crew weight for the F40 I race on weekly is around the 900kg+ mark...don't that thing go uphill like a train when it blows :D

I think you're spot on with what you're saying performance wise, but think the K40 may have the edge overall with uphill speed/stability, and probably quicker reaching as well with the higher stability, I don't read much into IRC numbers, as we know, just because boat A has a higher rating than boat B, it doesn't mean thats how it shapes up in the real world, like you I'm hanging to see the polars, that would give a more accurate comparison.

Plenty of tire kicking going on atm, like you no real desire to rush into things as yet.

Also, the combination of McConaghy and Ker is hard to pass up, both have serious runs on the board with past boats, and I see this as being a very good partnership


Great discussion GF - we need to keep this one active.

You raise some great questions: where does that other 600kgs (v.s the Soto40) hide out? I hope its 90%+ in the keel because I'm sure as heck not interested in racing a downhill snow plow (did that already 3 boats ago on the BH36... hee hee).

The McConaghy aspect is a real attraction for me too as the shed is just up the coast (6 hrs flight) for me... I did the homework on visiting the MBoats factory (Soto40 builder) in Argentina... I won't tell you what the air fares cost much less, the 24+ hrs to get there...and the language barriers. I don't know anything about MBoats but I do know McConaghy builds quality race-winners (and one or two expensive pigs). McC's + Ker? Got to be pretty safe one would think.

Also, the mods required to the Soto40 to get it into real, competitive IRC/mixed fleet racing mode would add another 25-30k to the boat cost AND impact re-sale value down the track as you probably have moved it way out of OD specs by that time. Add to this, the 5ft headroom down below and spartan interior (not that the Ker40 is an oxygen lounge below decks or anything) and the pain of selling the Soto 2.5 years down the track (my typcal horizon) and I'm getting irritated already.

But DAMN!! the Soto40 looks like fun doesn't it? Fark me.

#86 rigguy

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Posted 04 May 2010 - 03:50 PM

You know, with all of the boats in the 11-12.2 M range coming of the boards last few years, I would hate to have to make a decision on where to spend my money.
When two year old boats are old news, it is really a tough market. Your design better be spot on or your boat and builder is history..
Fast...

#87 tuf-luf

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Posted 04 May 2010 - 04:16 PM

You know, with all of the boats in the 11-12.2 M range coming of the boards last few years, I would hate to have to make a decision on where to spend my money.
When two year old boats are old news, it is really a tough market. Your design better be spot on or your boat and builder is history..
Fast...


Care to name a few of those two year olds newbie? What is "history" in your opinion?

#88 Ballast Technician

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Posted 04 May 2010 - 04:33 PM




The Ker 40 is the same as the 11.5, in the photo on the website tuffie posted is the 11.5 located in LIS. It did pretty well last year at the AYC fall series despite a pretty significant gear failure.



and it got beat by a Farr 40 this past weekend


That may be so but that yacht wasn't a Ker40. Was that under IRC rule or PHRF? How did the crews compare on competency/skill?

Sclero - the 11.5 is 0.7m shorter than the Ker40 which is actually 12.2m. It is similar but has been tweaked by Ker Design to, I assume, better perform than then 11.5 (which, as I understand it, was largely and IRC update of the 11.3... which is now how many years old? 7 or 8?).

Not sure why Ker/McConaghy have chosen to show the 11.5 image on the Ker40 website as it does cause confusion. Suppose they will change this once one pops out the shed at McConaghy China.


And the photos on the Ker 40 link are of the 11.5 Peacemaker, compare the sail number on the transom and you will see what I mean. The 40 might be a slightly different design, tweaked after some experience but its basically the same.


Have you read the fucking thread?

#89 Jason Ker

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Posted 04 May 2010 - 05:22 PM

I've been biting my tounge over this for a couple weeks.

McConaghy building Ker's latest take on 40ft IRC machine.

Website: here.

Love the flush decks and tiller...and massively long prodder.

anybody interested...like me?

Pricing & options here.


Thanks for you kind remarks, I'll write up some designer comments in the next few days that answer some of the questions raised through this thread, but in the meanwhile:

1. Construction is vacuum bagged epoxy and E-Glass, with painted hull and deck, so any difference in weight with other boats carefully build the same way will become ballast weight. Carbon is a tiny benefit at this size range and certainly does not exceed it's rating.

2. We would not design a boat with an "IRC" tag unless we fully expected it to be very suitable for competitive racing under IRC and we rely on our reputation to consistently deliver competitive race yachts, such as Aera, Voodoo, Ker 11.3, Tonnerre and the 11.5

3. We're not planning to post polars, mainly because we don't believe polars should ever be compared unless the drag data, the aero data, the sea state and the wind profile are all from the same (accurate) source. We maintain a "fleet" of boats in our computers which we run through our CFD codes with the same settings and we use this data to compare competitiveness versus competitors with the VPP in different conditions as well as against our existing and other candidate designs.


Jason

#90 Gorn FRANTIC!!

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Posted 04 May 2010 - 09:35 PM

Fair enough then, in that case, how do the numbers you would have for the K40 compare to the available polars for the Farr 40 and Soto 40?

#91 LongTim

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Posted 04 May 2010 - 10:16 PM

Fair enough then, in that case, how do the numbers you would have for the K40 compare to the available polars for the Farr 40 and Soto 40?


At least the Soto 40 has the balls to publish its Polars and has the real-life points on the board. The actual target numbers for the nine Soto 40s already sailing are quite different from the original polars, exceeding them in just about every direction.... bizarre. Me thinks polars are just another slick marketing tool and work best with heavier yachts that are less likely to affected by sea-state and planing ability. A drag between the new Ker and the Soto? I think you already know the answer :) But really enjoying the discussion everyone and great to see some choices available for real buyers. Tim, Longitude Yachts.

#92 LongTim

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Posted 04 May 2010 - 10:21 PM



No more insight than you mate. My comment was based on the assumption - and would love to debate it - that the Soto40's lightness (600kgs less than the Ker40) will be highly advantageous downhill in sub-15 or 18 kts or so because it will still be as stable as the Ker40 and the water will still be reasonably flat.

When the breeze cranks up over 18kts (or maybe even lower depending on angles being sailed) the extra 600kgs on the Ker's keel will give it the stability edge whereas the Soto would be a gutfull to keep flat unless you've got 12 blokes on the wings...and this is not something I want to worry about, quite frankly.

Any thoughts to the contrary? Would love to put the IRC trial certs and the polars side-by-side and grind out some variances. This will come soon enough... I'm not that much in a hurry to part with 4-5 hundred grand just yet until we're further down the research path eh. ;)

Are you in the same mode too???

It would be interesting to know how much of the extra weight in the K40 was in the bulb and how much is hull weight due to being built from e-glass and not carbon, no doubt some would have to be in the bulb, you'd be hard push to put an extra 600kg in the layup unless it was built from cement.

Also agree that the K40 would be stiffer uphill, crew weight not soo much an issue with us, our current crew weight for the F40 I race on weekly is around the 900kg+ mark...don't that thing go uphill like a train when it blows :D

I think you're spot on with what you're saying performance wise, but think the K40 may have the edge overall with uphill speed/stability, and probably quicker reaching as well with the higher stability, I don't read much into IRC numbers, as we know, just because boat A has a higher rating than boat B, it doesn't mean thats how it shapes up in the real world, like you I'm hanging to see the polars, that would give a more accurate comparison.

Plenty of tire kicking going on atm, like you no real desire to rush into things as yet.

Also, the combination of McConaghy and Ker is hard to pass up, both have serious runs on the board with past boats, and I see this as being a very good partnership


Great discussion GF - we need to keep this one active.

You raise some great questions: where does that other 600kgs (v.s the Soto40) hide out? I hope its 90%+ in the keel because I'm sure as heck not interested in racing a downhill snow plow (did that already 3 boats ago on the BH36... hee hee).

The McConaghy aspect is a real attraction for me too as the shed is just up the coast (6 hrs flight) for me... I did the homework on visiting the MBoats factory (Soto40 builder) in Argentina... I won't tell you what the air fares cost much less, the 24+ hrs to get there...and the language barriers. I don't know anything about MBoats but I do know McConaghy builds quality race-winners (and one or two expensive pigs). McC's + Ker? Got to be pretty safe one would think.

Also, the mods required to the Soto40 to get it into real, competitive IRC/mixed fleet racing mode would add another 25-30k to the boat cost AND impact re-sale value down the track as you probably have moved it way out of OD specs by that time. Add to this, the 5ft headroom down below and spartan interior (not that the Ker40 is an oxygen lounge below decks or anything) and the pain of selling the Soto 2.5 years down the track (my typcal horizon) and I'm getting irritated already.

But DAMN!! the Soto40 looks like fun doesn't it? Fark me.


I will happily fork out for your airfare to Buenos Aires Mr. Tuf-Luf if you are looking to get into a fast 40 :) But get your point...
Where are they building the Ker? I thought it would be at McConaghy, China?? And when is the first one hitting the soup? Anyone know? Tim

#93 Gorn FRANTIC!!

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Posted 04 May 2010 - 10:41 PM

A drag between the new Ker and the Soto? I think you already know the answer :) But really enjoying the discussion everyone and great to see some choices available for real buyers. Tim, Longitude Yachts.

And at the end of that leg we turn the corner and already know what will happen there as well :P

#94 tuf-luf

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Posted 05 May 2010 - 01:18 AM




No more insight than you mate. My comment was based on the assumption - and would love to debate it - that the Soto40's lightness (600kgs less than the Ker40) will be highly advantageous downhill in sub-15 or 18 kts or so because it will still be as stable as the Ker40 and the water will still be reasonably flat.

When the breeze cranks up over 18kts (or maybe even lower depending on angles being sailed) the extra 600kgs on the Ker's keel will give it the stability edge whereas the Soto would be a gutfull to keep flat unless you've got 12 blokes on the wings...and this is not something I want to worry about, quite frankly.

Any thoughts to the contrary? Would love to put the IRC trial certs and the polars side-by-side and grind out some variances. This will come soon enough... I'm not that much in a hurry to part with 4-5 hundred grand just yet until we're further down the research path eh. ;)

Are you in the same mode too???

It would be interesting to know how much of the extra weight in the K40 was in the bulb and how much is hull weight due to being built from e-glass and not carbon, no doubt some would have to be in the bulb, you'd be hard push to put an extra 600kg in the layup unless it was built from cement.

Also agree that the K40 would be stiffer uphill, crew weight not soo much an issue with us, our current crew weight for the F40 I race on weekly is around the 900kg+ mark...don't that thing go uphill like a train when it blows :D

I think you're spot on with what you're saying performance wise, but think the K40 may have the edge overall with uphill speed/stability, and probably quicker reaching as well with the higher stability, I don't read much into IRC numbers, as we know, just because boat A has a higher rating than boat B, it doesn't mean thats how it shapes up in the real world, like you I'm hanging to see the polars, that would give a more accurate comparison.

Plenty of tire kicking going on atm, like you no real desire to rush into things as yet.

Also, the combination of McConaghy and Ker is hard to pass up, both have serious runs on the board with past boats, and I see this as being a very good partnership


Great discussion GF - we need to keep this one active.

You raise some great questions: where does that other 600kgs (v.s the Soto40) hide out? I hope its 90%+ in the keel because I'm sure as heck not interested in racing a downhill snow plow (did that already 3 boats ago on the BH36... hee hee).

The McConaghy aspect is a real attraction for me too as the shed is just up the coast (6 hrs flight) for me... I did the homework on visiting the MBoats factory (Soto40 builder) in Argentina... I won't tell you what the air fares cost much less, the 24+ hrs to get there...and the language barriers. I don't know anything about MBoats but I do know McConaghy builds quality race-winners (and one or two expensive pigs). McC's + Ker? Got to be pretty safe one would think.

Also, the mods required to the Soto40 to get it into real, competitive IRC/mixed fleet racing mode would add another 25-30k to the boat cost AND impact re-sale value down the track as you probably have moved it way out of OD specs by that time. Add to this, the 5ft headroom down below and spartan interior (not that the Ker40 is an oxygen lounge below decks or anything) and the pain of selling the Soto 2.5 years down the track (my typcal horizon) and I'm getting irritated already.

But DAMN!! the Soto40 looks like fun doesn't it? Fark me.


I will happily fork out for your airfare to Buenos Aires Mr. Tuf-Luf if you are looking to get into a fast 40 :) But get your point...
Where are they building the Ker? I thought it would be at McConaghy, China?? And when is the first one hitting the soup? Anyone know? Tim


G'day Tim - no idea when the first Ker40 splashes but would love to know. The US agent is telling me he is having trouble handling all of the inquiries (probably a consequence of this thread I might hazzard to guess). I seem to remember somewhere hearing that there are 3-4 in the production queue at McConaghy's China already.

Can anyone confirm this?

Either way, this and the Soto40 thread are generating a heap of interest for both yachts and I (and others) am really enjoying/benefiting from the open discussion. Imagine thinking of near realtime debate on a new yacht just 6 or 7 years ago - ha! This website can really give me the shitz sometimes but once again, it is proving it's undisputable value.

Onya for joining in Tim!

#95 LongTim

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Posted 05 May 2010 - 01:34 AM

appily fork out for your airfare to Buenos Aires Mr. Tuf-Luf if you are looking to get into a fast 40 :) But get your point...
Where are they building the Ker? I thought it would be at McConaghy, China?? And when is the first one hitting the soup? Anyone know? Tim
[/quote]

G'day Tim - no idea when the first Ker40 splashes but would love to know. The US agent is telling me he is having trouble handling all of the inquiries (probably a consequence of this thread I might hazzard to guess). I seem to remember somewhere hearing that there are 3-4 in the production queue at McConaghy's China already.

Can anyone confirm this?

Either way, this and the Soto40 thread are generating a heap of interest for both yachts and I (and others) am really enjoying/benefiting from the open discussion. Imagine thinking of near realtime debate on a new yacht just 6 or 7 years ago - ha! This website can really give me the shitz sometimes but once again, it is proving it's undisputable value.

Onya for joining in Tim!
[/quote]

It's in our best interest to get people talking about the various hot 40s around. We're here to stay and we've already got 9 Sotos lining up at Ilhabela Race Week in July so will ensure we get all the action and pics to you guys as soon as we can. Indeed we are lucky to have the opportunity to debate the issues and sort through the advantages and disadvantages of the boats. Ultimately the Ker and the Soto are very similar. The major difference is the 'look' and the ultimate purpose (OD versus IRC fleet). Competition is great for your website readers and for us as well... I am in Chicago next week launching US Soto 40 #1, and there is another one just ordered headed for the US as well. Come up to Holland, Michigan and check out the fastest 40 in the world :) Tim




#96 LowGroove

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Posted 05 May 2010 - 02:52 AM

[quote name='LongTim' date='05 May 2010 - 11:34 AM' timestamp='1273023255' post='2835975']
appily fork out for your airfare to Buenos Aires Mr. Tuf-Luf if you are looking to get into a fast 40 :) But get your point...
Where are they building the Ker? I thought it would be at McConaghy, China?? And when is the first one hitting the soup? Anyone know? Tim
[/quote]

G'day Tim - no idea when the first Ker40 splashes but would love to know. The US agent is telling me he is having trouble handling all of the inquiries (probably a consequence of this thread I might hazzard to guess). I seem to remember somewhere hearing that there are 3-4 in the production queue at McConaghy's China already.

Can anyone confirm this?

Either way, this and the Soto40 thread are generating a heap of interest for both yachts and I (and others) am really enjoying/benefiting from the open discussion. Imagine thinking of near realtime debate on a new yacht just 6 or 7 years ago - ha! This website can really give me the shitz sometimes but once again, it is proving it's undisputable value.

Onya for joining in Tim!
[/quote]

It's in our best interest to get people talking about the various hot 40s around. We're here to stay and we've already got 9 Sotos lining up at Ilhabela Race Week in July so will ensure we get all the action and pics to you guys as soon as we can. Indeed we are lucky to have the opportunity to debate the issues and sort through the advantages and disadvantages of the boats. Ultimately the Ker and the Soto are very similar. The major difference is the 'look' and the ultimate purpose (OD versus IRC fleet). Competition is great for your website readers and for us as well... I am in Chicago next week launching US Soto 40 #1, and there is another one just ordered headed for the US as well. Come up to Holland, Michigan and check out the fastest 40 in the world :) Tim
[/quote]

They just both look like fantastic boats!
Tim I think you guys are doing a fantastic job with the marketing and everything about the new boat makes sense!
Sailing will only be stronger and make more sense with red hot one design 40fters getting around at reasonable prices and i think the market will embrace both boats.
I just wish certain buyers would make their mind up so I can get my ass on one ASAP.

I can't afford a boat but can you fly me OS anyway?

#97 InNeedOfSomeRestraint

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Posted 05 May 2010 - 02:57 AM

I agree with the poster above me, LongTim you are doing an excellent job of pimping your boat here. It says a lot that you're willing to come online here to really talk openly with us about your product rather than doing all this behind closed doors where the only one getting any info is the prospective customer.

#98 Jason Ker

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Posted 05 May 2010 - 06:48 AM


Fair enough then, in that case, how do the numbers you would have for the K40 compare to the available polars for the Farr 40 and Soto 40?


At least the Soto 40 has the balls to publish its Polars and has the real-life points on the board. The actual target numbers for the nine Soto 40s already sailing are quite different from the original polars, exceeding them in just about every direction.... bizarre. Me thinks polars are just another slick marketing tool and work best with heavier yachts that are less likely to affected by sea-state and planing ability. A drag between the new Ker and the Soto? I think you already know the answer :) But really enjoying the discussion everyone and great to see some choices available for real buyers. Tim, Longitude Yachts.


Hi Tim, you make my point about published polars for me: "The actual target numbers for the nine Soto 40s already sailing are quite different from the original polars", but also it is clear that your product is purely intended for One-Design so there is no reason for you not to publish polars, accurate or not. The Ker 40 is dual purpose and how many recently designed high performance handicap racers can you find polars for online? Perhaps try to give another design office a call and ask them to send to you a set of TP polars for next years boat...

If someone can be 100% sure of a local and international one-design fleet, then they don't need to worry about handicap racing, but otherwise they surely do, both to get some satisfaction on the racecourse and when it comes to selling the boat.

When there is no requirement for weekend cruising with the family then we believe fast fun boats like the Ker 40 and Soto 40 are what many crews would like to be racing, and this thread seems to support that!

#99 attalo

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Posted 05 May 2010 - 07:47 AM

Dear All,

please keep this as a secret but this is exactly how the new 2011 GP42 will look like. We are working on the rule in this view for the 2011 season.....

Keep it quite but trust us..

Ciao,

Paolo

#100 Windward Mark

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Posted 05 May 2010 - 08:56 AM

Nice boat, I know it has caught the interest of a few locals owners here, but the theme seems to be that it is highly unlikely that the rating will be below 1.200.

The 2 new RP 42's Equinox and Black Jack rate up around the 1.24* mark. At sub 5000kg's and with that much area, I highly doubt it too, but very happy to be proven wrong.

RP42

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