484 replies to this topic

[barnone]

One rule I have seen implemented for distance races is that you are required to be motoring to the start line. After that, stowe your motor if you wish. This proves that it indeed works and has good fuel etc. I kind of liked that approach. In certain sea states, and outboard on the transom can be an issue. Personally I hate them. But having one stowed actually saved our bacon last weekend. It didn't need to be on the transom, even in 35 kts. It just needed to be nearby and in good working order.

In fact, heavy weather with outboard on back of small sportie is like towing a dinghy on an offshore boat in a gale.

[steveromagnino]

Doesnt the blue book state that if you store fuel below you need two means of escape, ie. fwd hatch as per the T7's?
I know of one boat at GBRW that emptied the fuel from the outboard and stored it in the cabin with the fuel stored on the transom as they only had a companionway hatch and no forward hatch.

My understanding is that under Cat 5(x) the outboard must stay on the stern so then it's a non issue as it IS above deck. There are plenty of places to store a fuel tank above decks anyhow, if this is an issue. It would be difficult to expect a boat with no interior volume like a Shaw or Viper or SB3 to install a hatch of this size, when anyhow there is no physical way to go inside the boat in the stowage hatches then climb out the front hatch; there's a big bulkhead in the way! Incidentally, the Shaw does have a forward hatch, just so we are clear; it is smaller than the requirements though for fuel stowage :-)

The Shaws with a 3.5HP will motor into some pretty strong seas no problem, provided the boat isn't pitching excessively. The boat has low topsides, moderate sized rig, and 3.5HP for a boat including crew that weighs under 700kg is more than enough; in fact we believe that to keep things on a level footing engines really should be sized based on the size and weight of the boat. It would be asking a lot of a 3.5HP to push a much larger boat.

We've put the engine on in some reasonably strong weather (once in a squall as we were coming in maybe 30+ knots, pouring with horizontal rain, breaking onshore seas about 1.5m high) - no problem provided you do in steps, and use the string that keeps the boat and engine attached in a logical way.

The owners all have no issue with having a hinging bracket when required, and the rest of the time storing inside the boat; this works.

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[barnone]

Doesnt the blue book state that if you store fuel below you need two means of escape, ie. fwd hatch as per the T7's?
I know of one boat at GBRW that emptied the fuel from the outboard and stored it in the cabin with the fuel stored on the transom as they only had a companionway hatch and no forward hatch.

You only need means of escape if you can actually crawl inside!!

The shaw setup sounds great and totally appropriate for the boat.

Wow, look at how that boat floats! It just wants to go.

[mezaire]

I hate to weigh into an arguement here as it probably deserevs its own thread, but why there is not a blanket rule that all boats must leaves the outboards on the back at all times is beyond me. If every boat has an outboard on the back then no one is disadvantaged, one rule for all, simple, done.

If you want to know what can go wrong have a read of this

http://www.vic.yacht...aul Draft 3.pdf

Sporties sail without the luxury of rescue boats unlike most dinghy fleets and should be responsible for their own safety. If you cannot go back and pickup a crew member that has fallen overboard then how can you as a skipper or crew be responsible for the safety of your crew.

Imagine having a crew member fall overboard after a broken rudder caused a broach and having to watch them drift away while having to not only get an outboard out of the cabin but in some cases having to fill the tank with fuel and then prime it???? I challenge anyone to do this on a 7m SB in 25 knots in less than 5 min, simply not possible.

A blanket rule just like the life jacket one simply makes sense. Make a formula for outboard horsepower based on boat length and weight and then it simple.

And as for an outboard being dangerous on tha back??? WHAT??? We are all sailing around with a 10ft carbon pole sticking out the front, doing 15 knots with a kite blocking out most of our vision and the outboard is dangerous??

Or are we all just more worried what our boats will look like in photos with outboards on the back???

I know what I have said is harsh but will it take a death at Geelong, ABRW or GBRW to make people see sense??? Why not be proactive and make the rule before someone dies??

Anyway, soap box anyone???

Mez

[barnone]

I hate to weigh into an arguement here as it probably deserevs its own thread

I'm happy to weigh in but it does deserve it's own thread. I bet there is already one or many that could be added to as well.

[rob d]

ISAF YA RRS P. 221:
Cat. 3-5; 3.24.4- Mounted at all times-may be raised but not removed.

3.24.5; Min. sped in Knts=1.8 x sqr rt of lwl in metres against a 12 knt headwind.
8m= 5.1knts; 6m=4.4knts

fuel to motor at this speed for 8 hrs; 4hrs cat.5


not withstanding the above;
Min. fuel in litres cat. 3-6; lwl in metres/0.4
8m=20l; 6m=15l (I guess 1/2 for cat 5)

Surf to city start a couple of years ago was an insight- some not able to motor to the start and getting washed up. It was way over 12knts but a boat of around 8m with 5-6 guys and everything on board for a long day- 3.5 hp is laughable, if it were not so dangerous. Dismastings within sight of the start meant with a safety boat, start boat and spectators not everyone could have been covered. Light boats still suffer from windage. We have to have $10 million public liability to race. Should the worst unfortunately occur, does anyone expect an insurance company won't look for a way out of a 7-figure payout?
Has anyone got specific figures of engine/speed/boat? I know there are huge variables, prop type, etc.

[dachopper]

I can't wait to see some footage of the production boat hauling ass downwind...

Manic is not the same as the production boat - it that correct?

How fast have they gone?

[steveromagnino]

Well a week or so ago the brisbane boat left Auckland, loaded into the container all alone :_( and awaiting her new owner at the other end :_) Scheduled to hit the water late October depending on the generosity and good will (or lack of) at the Port in clearing customs AQIS etc.

A few shots. A bit of the messy stuff, that's the packing.

Pretty tight fit width wise (that's what she said) with this trailer; thanks to the wings, the boat needs a little tilt to get her in, and it's easiest with the keel not inside the boat; using our detachable wedge system, we can thread in the keel at the other end using some additional tilting, geometry, beer, people and then once the keel is through, the wedge attaches meaning it can't fall out the bottom of the boat.

Regarding Manic, she is a class boat built in wood; the class allows, as with many other NZ classes, to construct either in fibreglass (only available via Shaw650 as the licensed builder) or in cedar core - Manic is the 2nd boat with a cedar core and currently is in Newport Rhode Island.

The wooden boats are a bit more variable in terms of weight, there are a couple of very light ones similar to the vinylester constructed ones we are doing, but most are a little heavier than the class boats. It doesn't seem to make substantial difference so far, as the variations aren't that great.

The quickest I've heard:
Manic: 23 knots; apparently a white knuckle ride
Badonkadonk: 23.X knots (i have the GPS tracking for that day, will have to look it up)

The quickest I've gone in Pornstar where we have perhaps a little less breeze up here in Thailand is a recorded consistent 18 - 19 knots for around 10 minutes until we ran out of space. Very long upwind leg after that as we didn't want to stop! In racing for windward leewards though the key here in the winds we get (14-18 knots mostly) is to go for VMG not outright speed; so most of the season in the W-L racing we are doing 12-14 knots downwind and just going deeper and deeper when we can.

The funny thing is in anything over 12 knots the boat is rock steady; it is so simple to drive and trim, you just need to be sitting down because it is not dissimilar to windsurfing; if you aren't in the footstraps you are liable to get off balance and fall out the stern. No one's done that yet that I know of.

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[Cheesy]

I think Badonkadonk was 24.X from memory, that would have been very close to the VMG as well... same day that the lead mines were showing off their keels

[bla]

Well a week or so ago the brisbane boat left Auckland, loaded into the container all alone :_( and awaiting her new owner at the other end :_) Scheduled to hit the water late October depending on the generosity and good will (or lack of) at the Port in clearing customs AQIS etc.

A few shots. A bit of the messy stuff, that's the packing.

Pretty tight fit width wise (that's what she said) with this trailer; thanks to the wings, the boat needs a little tilt to get her in, and it's easiest with the keel not inside the boat; using our detachable wedge system, we can thread in the keel at the other end using some additional tilting, geometry, beer, people and then once the keel is through, the wedge attaches meaning it can't fall out the bottom of the boat.

Regarding Manic, she is a class boat built in wood; the class allows, as with many other NZ classes, to construct either in fibreglass (only available via Shaw650 as the licensed builder) or in cedar core - Manic is the 2nd boat with a cedar core and currently is in Newport Rhode Island.

The wooden boats are a bit more variable in terms of weight, there are a couple of very light ones similar to the vinylester constructed ones we are doing, but most are a little heavier than the class boats. It doesn't seem to make substantial difference so far, as the variations aren't that great.

The quickest I've heard:
Manic: 23 knots; apparently a white knuckle ride
Badonkadonk: 23.X knots (i have the GPS tracking for that day, will have to look it up)

The quickest I've gone in Pornstar where we have perhaps a little less breeze up here in Thailand is a recorded consistent 18 - 19 knots for around 10 minutes until we ran out of space. Very long upwind leg after that as we didn't want to stop! In racing for windward leewards though the key here in the winds we get (14-18 knots mostly) is to go for VMG not outright speed; so most of the season in the W-L racing we are doing 12-14 knots downwind and just going deeper and deeper when we can.

The funny thing is in anything over 12 knots the boat is rock steady; it is so simple to drive and trim, you just need to be sitting down because it is not dissimilar to windsurfing; if you aren't in the footstraps you are liable to get off balance and fall out the stern. No one's done that yet that I know of.

Rob has fallen over the back before, very entertaining. Not sure how many beers we had consumed at that stage though.

[steveromagnino]

Rob has fallen over the back before, very entertaining. Not sure how many beers we had consumed at that stage though.

I stand corrected. One of the kiwi guys has PMed me claiming that the Snatch guys have also gone into the water, but I don't know what caused that; I have my suspicions ;-)

Ignoring that, the boat is very safe and mild to sail ;-) Really.

Bla - what was the quickest you remember sailing in the Manic, when she was in AUckland?

[steveromagnino]

We are proud to have now handed over Situation Normal; the first Shaw 650 to reach Aussie shaws, er, shores.

The new owner is a long time Shaw enthuisiast, having been one of the first customers to approach us 2 years ago. After a lot of time, a few delays and the various changes, it was very enjoyable for both him and us to see the boat finally out of the container in Brisbane and then 5 hours north on the roads to the waters of Gladstone harbour.

For a first day, 20+ knots and a tricky little sail out the harbour didn't deter the crew, who saw some good upwind speed, and a rather wet and fast blast back down the harbour.

With plans to race in the state champs, as well as a few other regional regattas, we are sure the future of Situation Normal will be anything but 'normal'!

(In true Shaw style, the real name of the boat is actually an abbreviation of SNAFU - Aussies and Kiwis need no further explanation)

Unpacked...we rolled out of the container...then drove a LONG way up a lot of roads (good near brisbane, not so good further up the coast)....then we set up things on a nice lawn next to the club....then into the drink....and out to a nice 20-25 knot south easter which offered ideal shakedown first day conditions!

After some VERY wet reaching waaaay too damp for a camera....back to the club...for what seems to be the Aussie tradition of slagging off ya mates, and smacking booze.

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[barnone]

23 kts is damn fast for a small sportboat. Must of been white knuckle for sure.

[wal']

Sailed past the Snatch on a Friday night Rum Race when they were 'having a little lie down' off Devonport Wharf. Beer bottles floating everywhere

From memory there was bugger all breeze

[Cheesy]

23 kts is damn fast for a small sportboat. Must of been white knuckle for sure.

Well it was a whole lot more comfortable than going upwind at 7kts....

[steveromagnino]

The Situation Normal is now up and running in Queensland, and given that it was their first time out racing with a new crew, to be finishing ahead of the Melges 24s in the first race and mid fleet both races in some big breeze (bearing in mind many of the other boats had equipment issues and didn't race) it was a pretty good effort, and this boat is going to be pretty quick in future once they get it up to speed.

Now the SNAFU challenge comes down to matching Peow Peow, winners in Queensland and a homebuilt Shaw 650 sporting the class bulb. Next showdown is end of December I think?

Good results for both boats!

For Australia, all boats are now carrying safety equipment (anchors, engines, fuel, etc etc) so the overall displacements are climbing up a bit, which may also reduce the handicap further from what is already a very sailable number.

Perth boats one ready to go now the other still in construction and both should be leaving NZ in a few weeks bound for Freemantle. Looking forward to doing that delivery....hoping there will be a few of the local boats to race with over there - Vipers, T750s, etc. The more the better!

[Turkey Slapper]

Doesnt the blue book state that if you store fuel below you need two means of escape, ie. fwd hatch as per the T7's?
I know of one boat at GBRW that emptied the fuel from the outboard and stored it in the cabin with the fuel stored on the transom as they only had a companionway hatch and no forward hatch.

It does, and asba rules say its got to be hung off the back now as well, dont worry, its not just the shaws that should be applying to YA about this, cant see why the M's havnt pushed this further as well.

12.5kg hanging off the stern in any conditions? For the sake of performance and style. No thanks.

Dosnt make any difference, its all in your mind!

And they dont all make it on the back while fitting them back on!



The Shaws on the weekend were bloody quick downwind in a breeze, looking forward to seeing how they go in all breezes, shame we broke and couldnt get a comparasion against a T7! Oh well, a couple of weeks!

[barney]

 something have to be done about the shaw650 website...

I was looking for the boats specification. How much sail does she carry? I'm guessing 30m2 UW, +60m2 Assy.

23knots DW is pretty cool, but not surprising, good work!

[Cheesy]

 something have to be done about the shaw650 website...

I was looking for the boats specification. How much sail does she carry? I'm guessing 30m2 UW, +60m2 Assy.

23knots DW is pretty cool, but not surprising, good work!

The 24kts downwind was less than 50m2, Im not sure the exact size maybe 45m2? there were gusts into the high 30s though

[barney]

nice! Are you using traps, or just hiking? How fast does she go upwind?

[Cheesy]

nice! Are you using traps, or just hiking? How fast does she go upwind?

Just to be clear this is a wooden uni tech boat not one of the production ones, I think the production sails are the same design though, downwind was just hiking, not particularly hard hiking at that. Upwind was with 2 wires and from memory it sat on 7.2kts, hiking would have been 6.8kts roughly

[PropPast]

I had previously been quite keen on an melges 20 as there isn't really a regular fleet here for racing and I like speed but don't like the idea of having to hike really hard all day.

I looked at results in that australia thread and It seems like the shaw is the quickest of this size boat but actually doesn't seem very radical; similar beam to other boats not excessive draft its not full carbon and rig size is similar to sb3 and m20. Quite light though.

I can see hiking makes a difference but is it just hype or is this boat really a lot quicker than the non hikers and the viper? And why exactly?

[GybeSet®]

you can't now still question how fast it is after those results !

why it's fast ? basically it's a full-on skiff¹ type


^1.with only one real concession .. the bulb

http://www.tboat.com/Editorials/Edit-designer/sport-design.html

from TBOAT.com -- Boats such as the eighteen-foot skiffs and the modern 49ers show very little compromise and every design element that departs from the skiff concept reduces the speed potential of any given design.

[Evo]

And why exactly?

i think you already partially answered yourself....weight and then hull shape would be my guess.

I also like the depowerability that the 3/4 rig offers. compared to both the Viper and Melges which would be closer to 7/8ths rigs. the SB3 is the heron of sportsboats and not worth comparing


*apologies to Heron sailors...I know you have good racing*

[Barman]

I had previously been quite keen on an melges 20 as there isn't really a regular fleet here for racing and I like speed but don't like the idea of having to hike really hard all day.

I looked at results in that australia thread and It seems like the shaw is the quickest of this size boat but actually doesn't seem very radical; similar beam to other boats not excessive draft its not full carbon and rig size is similar to sb3 and m20. Quite light though.

I can see hiking makes a difference but is it just hype or is this boat really a lot quicker than the non hikers and the viper? And why exactly?

They are all good sailors!

Hike bitch is a term we use a lot here.

[Cheesy]

I had previously been quite keen on an melges 20 as there isn't really a regular fleet here for racing and I like speed but don't like the idea of having to hike really hard all day.

I looked at results in that australia thread and It seems like the shaw is the quickest of this size boat but actually doesn't seem very radical; similar beam to other boats not excessive draft its not full carbon and rig size is similar to sb3 and m20. Quite light though.

I can see hiking makes a difference but is it just hype or is this boat really a lot quicker than the non hikers and the viper? And why exactly?

Thats about the long and the short of it... It is a well thought out boat and for its speed is not too hard to sail (how this compares to the others you mentioned I dont know). Hiking on them isnt bad, the sides are nicely rolled, depending on your local conditions you may not have to hike much at all.

[PropPast]

What about in the 5-8 knot winds? Does the boat suffer upwind much from the medium size rig? I know all these assymetric boats suffer a bit downwind compared to j24s and symmetricals. How does the shaw go compared to the these other ones like viper melges and so on?

Not sure we see 20 knots too often over here so maybe my beer belly and fat crews are enough?

[Cheesy]

What about in the 5-8 knot winds? Does the boat suffer upwind much from the medium size rig? I know all these assymetric boats suffer a bit downwind compared to j24s and symmetricals. How does the shaw go compared to the these other ones like viper melges and so on?

Not sure we see 20 knots too often over here so maybe my beer belly and fat crews are enough?

There was a code zero for that, quick because it was light boat

[Evo]

I don't think making comparisons to J24's downhill works does it??....I doubt very much that a well sailed J24 could touch a well sailed any of these boats downhill.....in any conditions (maybe the SB3 but that would be it)

Light air just take one less fat guy

[Magilla Gorilla]

The only time a J24 will beat a sportsboat is when a J24 sinks...

Just watch how many tears are shed when it happens...

[Hobbs]

I don't think making comparisons to J24's downhill works does it??....I doubt very much that a well sailed J24 could touch a well sailed any of these boats downhill.....in any conditions (maybe the SB3 but that would be it)

Light air just take one less fat guy

Hey, fat guys need a ride too!

[steveromagnino]

 something have to be done about the shaw650 website...

I was looking for the boats specification. How much sail does she carry? I'm guessing 30m2 UW, +60m2 Assy.

23knots DW is pretty cool, but not surprising, good work!

Hmmm website was up and down a bit over the weekend, not sure why. I've only just somewhat recovered from being rather ill, so maybe the website was sick too.
www.shaw650.com
and
www.shawyachtdesign.com

Sail areas are slightly lower than your guess, although pretty close
Upwind is about 27-28sqm; the jib is a little over 8sqm so relatively easy to control given that like most sporties there's only a rachet block; I don't spend much time up the front of the boat myself and got a bit of a surprise that it is a bit of a workout when we took out the situation normal in some breeze; however there's not really much of an issue with trimming the jib at any time. The class main being fully battened is pretty easy to trim as the vang works well on these boats without a cabin, and the bridle means you have good purchase at the end of the boom.

The class kite is (measured under IRC using mid girth and various calculations) supposedly 53sqm, but I guess depending exactly how you measure maybe Kestrahl might say it is slightly more or less than that. It certainly seems more than enough area to get the boat rocking along downwind; there is also a masthead reaching kite which is right at the limit of the 75% mid girth measurement which is just under 40sqm; I'm not sure whether that was the small Bandonkadonk kite that Cheessy is familiar with; it is the same as what is on Situation Normal, Manic and Pornstar now. TO sail well downwind, boats need a decent amount of prod length, good kite shape and maximising the hoist height on this size boat seem to be key; I am sure you can read in other threads of some of the fractional kite boats; they are ok in breeze but when it gets lighter and goes to soak mode the Shaw can use that area to go pretty well downwind as well as getting decent depth in planining conditions; maybe for a bigger boat, but for 6.5m or smaller it's easier and faster to run mastheads all the time IMHO; also means running a slightly more sophisticated twin spreader rig to support the top of the mast as well, but again, that's a good thing IMHO - most of the modern southern hemisphere boats seem to running a similar configuration these days.

Badonkadonk benefited a bit as the owner is a sail maker so had code zeros and various other fancy toys; we don't include those in the class racing due to the cost and limited scope to use one plus under rules like IRC you get it treated as a headsail and thus are penalised rather heavily. Our own experience is 5-8 knots the boat goes well enough all things considered, but upwind might give up a little to the boats with bigger rigs; downwind it will always be one of the first to be up and planing just as a result of being light and relatively simple to sail fast. Certainly the guys up here in Asia who race on other sportsboats up here have said the Shaw's groove is quite wide to make it sail fairly well upwind, and downwind its hard to make it go slow.

I know the designer has been approached with every scenario of bigger rig, articulating prods, racks, etc etc (I see some of the mails also) but pretty much the boat goes very well exactly as it was designed and encorporating the evolution in decklayout, foils, sails design that has slightly improved from the originals. little things like the foot rail placement; the roll of the sidedecks to make hiking more comfortable; placement of sail controls.

There is definitely a noticeable gap between going fairly well and going very well in sportsboats, in my humble experience, and I must admit to having not really spent much/any time in the very well category if any; even going fairly well is pretty damn quick and fun on a Shaw!

I am not sure a J24 is a particularly good boat to compare for windward leewards, in the hard yards conditions of sub planing 5-8 knots, I suppose something like a Mumm 30 would be vaguely similar pace downwind in terms of VMG by sailing at the mark - problem being that something like a Mumm is able to put on the yards upwind. Once planing, then life gets a lot better. Ghosting in less than 5 knots, the boat goes pretty well also.

[PropPast]

Thanks very clear. I guess the viper is most similar as a hiking boat. U willing to offer any comment on similarity or differences other than price?

Is there just 1 shaw here in usa?

Mumm 30 pace, that's a pretty big claim!

[frayedsheet]

Thanks very clear. I guess the viper is most similar as a hiking boat. U willing to offer any comment on similarity or differences other than price?

Is there just 1 shaw here in usa?

Mumm 30 pace, that's a pretty big claim!

MummFarr 30s use what they have pretty efficiently, but comparing to the shaw is about as useful as the J24 comparison... the MummFarr is just under 2200kg in race config ex crew and sails. The Shaw650 is a bit over 1/6th of that! That said, I would bet plenty on a Shaw650 having a solid win over a MummFarr on a 2 lap W/L with breeze over 9-10kn.

[steveromagnino]

Takes planing breeze and then the Mumm, quick and a nice boat though they are, are slower downwind by enough to make up for the upwind legs. That said Situationa Normal races 2 Mumms up in Gladstone, so once he gets the boat wired, I think we'll find out your answer; up here in Asia we have only raced the IRC otpimitsed mumm twice when we had planning conditions, but that wasn't a windward leeward, it had a huge chop as well that day in the Samui channel, so perhaps not a fair comparison. We also did a monster broach as well right on the finish; as it was we won one lost one...by about equal times. In sub planing w-l conditions, the Mumms gain a fair bit on the upwinds.

There is another Shaw under construction in Santa Cruz, West Coast, so near you perhaps, you can see their progress here. Really good guys. Depending how good you are with your hands that's another option, although most of the builders do note that unless you have industry connections, it's actually hard to do it yourself unless you really enjoy building something. That said, as far as building boats go it's relatively simple and Rob Shaw himself consults to many boat builders and himself is a boat builder in a former life, so he designed the boat to be built easily.

www.buildingashaw650.com

Regarding the Viper, I can suggest maybe to visit racetrack, which is a NZ website that gauges boats against eachother.
http://www.racetrack...=1&categoryid=5

Growler is the Viper and you start to get some idea of the gap; however obviously the ones sailing in fleets are going to benefit from that and you'd really need to look at the Growler results carefully; some of the time Growler was running a bigger turboed rig and trapezes, I think you might find viewing the full history race by race that's the 2003 period, when actually the Viper was rating similar to the mid fleet Shaws like No Limits and Barely Legal. Also Growler has the smaller bulb and tin rig so again, you have to treat the results with a bit of a grain of salt.

It's also a bit hard to look at these results, as some of the time various Shaw 650 guys have been running wires and no wires and code zeros and so on as well. However, that's a guide and what you'd expect in terms of performance gap maybe as per the SMS rating differences which appear somewhere; the viper is a slightly smaller boat with a similar design philosophy; it's a great boat and the main difference is just that the Shaw has a little more size, a little more horsepower downwind and either boat on the day probably can score a win on line if the other screws up, particularly in the lighter stuff and upwind. I'm sure the Perth guys will push eachother pretty hard when they go out racing (I don't think Manic used to race in the same division as any Vipers, it was put in with the Mumm 30s and T830 and so on); it's awesome to think that now we have Thompsons, M24s, Vipers and the Shaws all similar size and close ratings for mixed fleet. I don't think you can go wrong with any of them, but obviously I'm biased, and feel like the lighter the boat, the more fun.

PM me if you want any more information.

[barney]

nice! Are you using traps, or just hiking? How fast does she go upwind?

Just to be clear this is a wooden uni tech boat not one of the production ones, I think the production sails are the same design though, downwind was just hiking, not particularly hard hiking at that. Upwind was with 2 wires and from memory it sat on 7.2kts, hiking would have been 6.8kts roughly

That's faster than the M24. Melges' target is about 6.3knots for 24knots of wind. She can't go faster than the hull speed, and the Shaw can. Its interesting, how you can make enough righting moment to beat the M24 UW. The Shaw's sail area is smaller about 6m2, but the bulb and crew weight is so much lighter. I believe upwind boat speed is all about righting moment, the more you can produce, the faster you can go. Somebody mentioned earlier that the 3/4 rig can depower better, it's may be true, but still. This boat looks more like a dinghy than a sport boat to me. Pretty cool indeed! 

[Cheesy]

nice! Are you using traps, or just hiking? How fast does she go upwind?

Just to be clear this is a wooden uni tech boat not one of the production ones, I think the production sails are the same design though, downwind was just hiking, not particularly hard hiking at that. Upwind was with 2 wires and from memory it sat on 7.2kts, hiking would have been 6.8kts roughly

That's faster than the M24. Melges' target is about 6.3knots for 24knots of wind. She can't go faster than the hull speed, and the Shaw can. Its interesting, how you can make enough righting moment to beat the M24 UW. The Shaw's sail area is smaller about 6m2, but the bulb and crew weight is so much lighter. I believe upwind boat speed is all about righting moment, the more you can produce, the faster you can go. Somebody mentioned earlier that the 3/4 rig can depower better, it's may be true, but still. This boat looks more like a dinghy than a sport boat to me. Pretty cool indeed! 

The 6.8kt number may be high I cant quite remember as we sailed with 2 wires all the time, it was definitly in the 6.X and it does sail faster than hull speed. The sail plan is very managable and easy to trim to keep the thing flat and fast, Badonkadonk just had a bridle at the back with the a 2:1 and then sheeted off the boom. I have no idea how fast an M24 or M30 is but in reasonably high winds and horrible chop the Shaw was faster than the T30 in the video in the main forum

[GybeSet®]

the Qld titles show the facts, there is a scratch result sheet there, granted it is both upwind and down

Righting moment is paramount upwind, but only good for comparison if all else is equal

crew weight ? both boats use 4 crew

[barney]

crew weight ? both boats use 4 crew

legs out style hiking is more efficient though...

[Evo]

crew weight ? both boats use 4 crew

legs out style hiking is more efficient though...

not more efficient than traps though.....which i think Cheesy was referring to??

I'd also like to see the righting moment increase compared to the M's by the fact the Shaws have small wings...bums are a fair way out board compared to legs over hiking and with toestraps it should be even more if you hike hard

[barney]

Shaw and Melges 24 are about the same in terms of hull width.  As a matter of fact Shaw's narrower even with the wings, and you can't hike it big boat style. So unless you have strong laser sailors in your crew, you won't be able to produce more RM on a Shaw than on a M24 with hiking.

[Evo]

Shaw and Melges 24 are about the same in terms of hull width. As a matter of fact Shaw's narrower even with the wings, and you can't hike it big boat style. So unless you have strong laser sailors in your crew, you won't be able to produce more RM on a Shaw than on a M24 with hiking.

not neccessarily....where is Hobbs when you need him.

as i don't know the numbers i'll defer to you.....but to my eye and having sailed the M24 quite a lot....I'm not sure you have it quite right....helm never hikes on the melgi and it goes on from there

perhaps Stevereom or cheesy can give us rig weights?

[ZachF]

What about in the 5-8 knot winds? Does the boat suffer upwind much from the medium size rig? I know all these assymetric boats suffer a bit downwind compared to j24s and symmetricals. How does the shaw go compared to the these other ones like viper melges and so on?

Not sure we see 20 knots too often over here so maybe my beer belly and fat crews are enough?

I own a Viper and have sailed against Manic (cedar core Shaw 650) in Newport. The medium size rig allows for the boat to carry much less ballast in the bulb (compared to a Thompson type design) so they will accelerate with the slightest puff in light breeze. The local PHRF rates Manic equal with a Melges 24 and 6 seconds a mile faster than the Viper which seems to be about right.

[Yard Dog]

 something have to be done about the shaw650 website...

I was looking for the boats specification. How much sail does she carry? I'm guessing 30m2 UW, +60m2 Assy.

23knots DW is pretty cool, but not surprising, good work!

Hmmm website was up and down a bit over the weekend, not sure why. I've only just somewhat recovered from being rather ill, so maybe the website was sick too.
www.shaw650.com
and
www.shawyachtdesign.com

Sail areas are slightly lower than your guess, although pretty close
Upwind is about 27-28sqm; the jib is a little over 8sqm so relatively easy to control given that like most sporties there's only a rachet block; I don't spend much time up the front of the boat myself and got a bit of a surprise that it is a bit of a workout when we took out the situation normal in some breeze; however there's not really much of an issue with trimming the jib at any time. The class main being fully battened is pretty easy to trim as the vang works well on these boats without a cabin, and the bridle means you have good purchase at the end of the boom.

The class kite is (measured under IRC using mid girth and various calculations) supposedly 53sqm, but I guess depending exactly how you measure maybe Kestrahl might say it is slightly more or less than that. It certainly seems more than enough area to get the boat rocking along downwind; there is also a masthead reaching kite which is right at the limit of the 75% mid girth measurement which is just under 40sqm; I'm not sure whether that was the small Bandonkadonk kite that Cheessy is familiar with; it is the same as what is on Situation Normal, Manic and Pornstar now. TO sail well downwind, boats need a decent amount of prod length, good kite shape and maximising the hoist height on this size boat seem to be key; I am sure you can read in other threads of some of the fractional kite boats; they are ok in breeze but when it gets lighter and goes to soak mode the Shaw can use that area to go pretty well downwind as well as getting decent depth in planining conditions; maybe for a bigger boat, but for 6.5m or smaller it's easier and faster to run mastheads all the time IMHO; also means running a slightly more sophisticated twin spreader rig to support the top of the mast as well, but again, that's a good thing IMHO - most of the modern southern hemisphere boats seem to running a similar configuration these days.

Badonkadonk benefited a bit as the owner is a sail maker so had code zeros and various other fancy toys; we don't include those in the class racing due to the cost and limited scope to use one plus under rules like IRC you get it treated as a headsail and thus are penalised rather heavily. Our own experience is 5-8 knots the boat goes well enough all things considered, but upwind might give up a little to the boats with bigger rigs; downwind it will always be one of the first to be up and planing just as a result of being light and relatively simple to sail fast. Certainly the guys up here in Asia who race on other sportsboats up here have said the Shaw's groove is quite wide to make it sail fairly well upwind, and downwind its hard to make it go slow.

I know the designer has been approached with every scenario of bigger rig, articulating prods, racks, etc etc (I see some of the mails also) but pretty much the boat goes very well exactly as it was designed and encorporating the evolution in decklayout, foils, sails design that has slightly improved from the originals. little things like the foot rail placement; the roll of the sidedecks to make hiking more comfortable; placement of sail controls.

There is definitely a noticeable gap between going fairly well and going very well in sportsboats, in my humble experience, and I must admit to having not really spent much/any time in the very well category if any; even going fairly well is pretty damn quick and fun on a Shaw!

I am not sure a J24 is a particularly good boat to compare for windward leewards, in the hard yards conditions of sub planing 5-8 knots, I suppose something like a Mumm 30 would be vaguely similar pace downwind in terms of VMG by sailing at the mark - problem being that something like a Mumm is able to put on the yards upwind. Once planing, then life gets a lot better. Ghosting in less than 5 knots, the boat goes pretty well also.

Part of the ongoing debate between Shaw vs Viper vs whatever (and I will leave whatever out of it) is that the Viper has a class weight limit and the Shaw does not. I happen to like the Viper a lot, but the weight limit was a deal kill for me. I have heard that the weight limit has never been enforced, but it is on the books and can be enforced anytime after a Clydesdale buys one and begins winning with it. I am 225 lbs and my partner is close to 200 so for us to be competitive in a Viper under class rules--which sometime or other will be enforced--we would need a circus midget with a styrofoam leg as our third, and they are hard to come by.

[steveromagnino]

OK, some good questions here!

Evo -
The rig weight of the mast which is deck stepped including spreaders excluding halyards, stays, fittings etc is around 15kg. It is also just under 9m long, and is tapered so there isn't too much weight up high. I'd guess with all running rigging probably 20-25kg depending on turnbuckles and a few other factors.

The M24 being a longer boat with a larger section rig would presumably weigh a little more. let's remember it is a metre longer boat with a fair bit more horsepower upwind, so it needs more righting moment. At one point I considered using a Southern Spars reject mast on my own boat, and I do recall the section was slightly larger and heavier and stiffer than what C-Tech rigs are, FWIW.

In terms of righting moment when sailing, the hiking method in the M24 is very effective, and I know that the Phuket 8 guys use the same method up here on a 3.5m wide boat. Maybe in sheer physics it is working more than legs in. However, I don't think you can look only at the mechanics of bodyweight off centre line and righting moment only as a guide to upwind speed. If you were to reduce righting moment on any sportboat by removing the bulb for instance, the boat will likely sail faster upwind. So perhaps more important is the relative amount of moving weight on the Shaw relative to total displacement; on the Shaw by reducing rig size and bulb weight the crew are close to 1/2 the total displacement of the boat and crew are all moving righting moment, even if the hiking technique isn't as effective as legs outor the logical ultimate extension of using trapezes the boat responds pretty well and also the mobility of legs in hiking to respond to little puffs and gusts is pretty good. There are also may be some other arguable benefits to legs in hiking IMHO particularly for less experienced sailors like myself; trimming; enjoyment; ability to tack and gybe more easily; so for me that's the reason why many of the southern hemisphere designed boats go for legs in, and the non hiking M20 and SB3 also do the same.

Then there's also the construction of building the boat and the Shaw wouldn't be suitable for sticking on a lifeline setup to hike legs out since the wings are fairly thin and light nor does it have the structure down the siderails to support such a system which takes loads of 200-300kg at a guess with the entire crew hanging off it.

The modern square top rigs also can help take the edge off a bit as far as controllability upwind, if they are set up right. Also the Shaw has a lower aspect rig at a guess despite the big roach, so again, this changes the righting moment when a gust comes; so in some ways the two boats need to be compared across more criteria than just righting moment generated from the crew hiking.

As for beam, the wings mean the boat is pretty skinny on the waterline; skinnier than a boat without wings of equal beam; this fairly narrow hull shape with a relatively flat run can be acheived because the displacement of the boat is fairly low. As Kestrahl said earlier, it's a nice hull shape which allows the boat to sail a little over hull speed upwind and then plane up fairly early downwind as well. Bear in mind also it's a metre shorter than the M24, but almost the same beam.

From personal experience while we can sail in relatively flat conditions at 6.7 knots with pretty great height (designer target speed upwind) our own upwind targets drop away from that as the wind builds higher and a chop starts running as it is still only a 6.5m long boat. That said, I think a lot of it comes down to skill in sailing plus boat set up, and I know Kestrahl/Cheesy/The NZ Manic guys get far more performance out of the boat than I can. I suspect there is a goal to sail a little lower and faster than what I am doing which is why upwind we tend to be around M24 type numbers (say 6.4 knots) in steep chop or who knows, maybe worse, and yet other guys back in NZ are sailing quicker.

SMS says there isn't much in it between the M24 and the Shaw; I'd tend to agree. Results suggest that on Racetrack and Queensland was 1 day in a bit of breeze; have to see across the full range; I am sure every boat will have its day both on line and on handicap. Like the T7, T650, Viper, M24, the Shaw is going to slot in pretty nicely there in a tight rating band so everyone benefits from some boat on boat racing, like the cluster around 8m seem to have now (including the Stealth 7, which seems to be of similar sort of pace).

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[oregami]

Noticed quite afew mentions of the Viper 640 wondering how they would compare with the Shaw650 so I’ll throw my five cents worth in seeing I’ve sailed one for a season and halfnow.

We on the WestCoast (Perth) have a bit of experience with the Viper, with four boats arrivingin 2009 and another four arriving in new year 2010/11

It seems many ofthe people commenting on the Viper may not have sailed them just as I have notsailed the Shaw 650. Looking forward to giving it a go, though. Two Shaw 650’sarrive in Perth around December apparently.

Personal opinion of the Viper 640.

Nicely designedand built sports boat. Exciting , challenging, a similar concept to the laser in its simplicity of rig and sail control .

Overall Speed compared to the Shaw 650 –No brainer

Shaw 650 is :

Longer boat,lighter boat , deeper lighter keel, more sail area upwind and downwind

Performance under Australian SMS rating

Viper 640 - .7650 Melges24 - .8070 Shaw650 (peow) .8270

WhenSteveromagnino was asked how theViper compared with the Shaw 650 he quoted results based on Racetrack which was based on an old viper from2003.

He did say totake the results“with a bit of a grain of salt.”

Probably afairer comparison might be the Geographe Bay Race Week 2010 - one of the three big race weeks in Australia

Steveromagnino said in a recent post

“SMS says thereisn't much in it between the M24 and the Shaw; I'd tend to agree. Resultssuggest that on Racetrack and Queensland was 1 day in a bit of breeze; have tosee across the full range; I am sure every boat will have its day both on lineand on handicap.”

The Viper 640seemed very competitive against quality Melges 24 sailors at the Geographe BayRace Week in February , 2010.

15boat fleet 10 raceseries breezesfrom drifting to 20+ knots Race times - 30min races up to 3 hour

The fleetincluded three top names in Australian sailing:

Chris Williams,5 time National Sports Boat Champion.

Peter Chappell, Etchells, Sharpie and 505 nationaltitle holder

Heath Townsend, current Australian Melges 24 Champion

Overall results- Viper 5wins, Melges 5 wins

Summary

The Viper 640 wouldbe expected to be behind the other two classes over the line although it canbeat the Melges in drifters.

On handicap, witha healthy sms rating it will be interesting to see how the Viper 640, Melges 24and Shaw 650 go under the SMS rule around the same racetrack.

I guess we willfind out in February 2011 at Geographe Bay

P.S Onecomparison the Viper wins hands down –$$$

[Jerryd]

In terms of righting moment when sailing, the hiking method in the M24 is very effective, and I know that the Phuket 8 guys use the same method up here on a 3.5m wide boat. Maybe in sheer physics it is working more than legs in. However, I don't think you can look only at the mechanics of bodyweight off centre line and righting moment only as a guide to upwind speed. If you were to reduce righting moment on any sportboat by removing the bulb for instance, the boat will likely sail faster upwind. So perhaps more important is the relative amount of moving weight on the Shaw relative to total displacement; on the Shaw by reducing rig size and bulb weight the crew are close to 1/2 the total displacement of the boat and crew are all moving righting moment, even if the hiking technique isn't as effective as legs outor the logical ultimate extension of using trapezes the boat responds pretty well and also the mobility of legs in hiking to respond to little puffs and gusts is pretty good. There are also may be some other arguable benefits to legs in hiking IMHO particularly for less experienced sailors like myself; trimming; enjoyment; ability to tack and gybe more easily; so for me that's the reason why many of the southern hemisphere designed boats go for legs in, and the non hiking M20 and SB3 also do the same.

Then there's also the construction of building the boat and the Shaw wouldn't be suitable for sticking on a lifeline setup to hike legs out since the wings are fairly thin and light nor does it have the structure down the siderails to support such a system which takes loads of 200-300kg at a guess with the entire crew hanging off it.

The modern square top rigs also can help take the edge off a bit as far as controllability upwind, if they are set up right. Also the Shaw has a lower aspect rig at a guess despite the big roach, so again, this changes the righting moment when a gust comes; so in some ways the two boats need to be compared across more criteria than just righting moment generated from the crew hiking.

As for beam, the wings mean the boat is pretty skinny on the waterline; skinnier than a boat without wings of equal beam; this fairly narrow hull shape with a relatively flat run can be acheived because the displacement of the boat is fairly low. As Kestrahl said earlier, it's a nice hull shape which allows the boat to sail a little over hull speed upwind and then plane up fairly early downwind as well. Bear in mind also it's a metre shorter than the M24, but almost the same beam.

From personal experience while we can sail in relatively flat conditions at 6.7 knots with pretty great height (designer target speed upwind) our own upwind targets drop away from that as the wind builds higher and a chop starts running as it is still only a 6.5m long boat. That said, I think a lot of it comes down to skill in sailing plus boat set up, and I know Kestrahl/Cheesy/The NZ Manic guys get far more performance out of the boat than I can. I suspect there is a goal to sail a little lower and faster than what I am doing which is why upwind we tend to be around M24 type numbers (say 6.4 knots) in steep chop or who knows, maybe worse, and yet other guys back in NZ are sailing quicker.

The Shaw seems like quite the boat! Lots of good information here. For me though, the perfect boat would have the upwind capability of something like an Etchells, the downwind potential of a modern sportboat( Shaw, Melges, Viper), and a reasonable draft with keel down (less then 6') and no wings. It would be a great OD racer as well as being very capable in mixed keel boat fleets.

[Trevor B]

The Shaw seems like quite the boat! Lots of good information here. For me though, the perfect boat would have the upwind capability of something like an Etchells, the downwind potential of a modern sportboat( Shaw, Melges, Viper), and a reasonable draft with keel down (less then 6') and no wings. It would be a great OD racer as well as being very capable in mixed keel boat fleets.

I want it ALL, now.

There's two ways to get righting moment in a monohull, which is what you need to get performance, lots of lead very low or lots of meat out to weather.

[Evo]

ya know an etchells upwind isn't all that great compared to a melges 24.....points high but goes sideways compared to efficient fin bulb keels.


little side story....

probably the first time etchells and melgi were on the same OD race course was '95 Newport NOOD. RO decided Etchells were going to be quicker uphill so should start first by 5 minutes....leading Melgi were through the back and into the middle of the Etchells fleet before the weather mark. Through the leading E's briefly after the weather mark.

it was weird coming up astern of the longer boat....their bow was up a good 5 plus degrees as we approached them yet the M climbed over E

Etchells were relegated to start later after that.

Have sailed both E's and M's a lot....haven't sailed the Shaw...yet. Looks to me it's speed uphill isn't too bad at all and both Jerry and Trev might have had their wish come true already. The Shaw might also come into it's own once the breeze gets up.....M24's rigs don't gust respond while the Shaws most definitely will and the M's can't throw crew weight at an increase in pressure the way the Shaw allows. the rest is driving and just a little trimming

The M24 has always been a drivers test. It looks to me the Shaw is too but with a few less strings for the driver to negotiate all at once as the it's rig is so much more simple. The rig does the work for you

for mine this looks like the most exciting little boat to come along in a while. A fleet of them sounds even better


thanks for the rig info Stev....it's a lil bit lighter than the M when both are rigged but i bet the tip weight of the Shaw rig is significantly less.

[GybeSet®]

the mast will be lighter top bottom or anywhere in between, smaller boat smaller rig later technology no brainer


jerryd, it will go upwind like an etchells and down faster than the opposition

time to stop comparing to lead-bellies which is rather like comparing a skiff to a laser, or a hyundai to a Lotus

the performance is beyond conjecture, won on corrected and 2nd on line against an OPEN aussie sportsboat fleet, including 8mtr x 3.5m AR types

hypothetical comparos against incompatable boats fade in relation to that

Viper has a quite tangible break on SMS tcfs, which directly reflects the power ratios and lineal measurement differences, on an otherwise similar - ISH (note) design/concept, it will be competitive at it's hcp

[Evo]

how is the weight of the 'tip' remarkable when the boat is Actually two to three times lighter


?


jeeryd, it will go upwind like and etchells and down faster than a melges or viper

good grief yer an idiot.

what is it 2 or 3 times lighter Gobby?

and yep...once you load the boat with crew that tip weight is important. sailing 101 genius

the mast will be lighter top bottom or anywhere in between, smaller boat smaller rig later technology no brainer


jerryd, it will go upwind like an etchells and down faster than a melges or viper

time to stop comparing to lead-bellies which is rather like comparing a skiff to a laser, or family car to a Lotus

the performance is now beyond doubt, won on corrected and 2nd on line against an OPEN aussie sportsboat fleet,

hypothetical comparos against incompatable boats fade in relation to that

next edit

third one destined to get nasty

[Jerryd]

the mast will be lighter top bottom or anywhere in between, smaller boat smaller rig later technology no brainer


jerryd, it will go upwind like an etchells and down faster than a melges or viper

time to stop comparing to lead-bellies which is rather like comparing a skiff to a laser, or family car to a Lotus

the performance is now beyond doubt, won on corrected and 2nd on line against an OPEN aussie sportsboat fleet,

hypothetical comparos against incompatable boats fade in relation to that

Well, it certainly sounds like the ticket but probably out of my budget right now. I wish they were around longer like the Melges so there were some on the used market. Plenty of Melges at very reasonable prices.

I need to bring it up with my financial institution (wife) again!

[Evo]

I need to bring it up with my financial institution (wife) again!

been doing the same....lucky she sails

[Cheesy]

crew weight ? both boats use 4 crew

legs out style hiking is more efficient though...

not more efficient than traps though.....which i think Cheesy was referring to??

I'd also like to see the righting moment increase compared to the M's by the fact the Shaws have small wings...bums are a fair way out board compared to legs over hiking and with toestraps it should be even more if you hike hard

6.8kts was just hiking, 7.2kts with traps, off the wind Badonkladonk only ever used a wire when we had to come up to avoid another boat. Barney, even if it isnt efficient hiking legs in (not convinced on this though) you can sit very comfortably with your bum out over the edge and feet under the straps giving a slightly bigger effective beam. They tend to sail high and fast at the same time, this may have something to do with the relatively large draft compared to the sail plan.

The rig on Badonkadonk would be lighter than the production boats, not sure what it was but it felt much lighter than it rationally should when you picked it up with one hand

[Evo]

The rig on Badonkadonk would be lighter than the production boats, not sure what it was but it felt much lighter than it rationally should when you picked it up with one hand

which reminds me...a better comparison would be the Magic 25...takes two people to lift that godawful rig and they had to have traps to keep the thing up. gust response...none. nose dives....many

[Cheesy]

The rig on Badonkadonk would be lighter than the production boats, not sure what it was but it felt much lighter than it rationally should when you picked it up with one hand

which reminds me...a better comparison would be the Magic 25...takes two people to lift that godawful rig and they had to have traps to keep the thing up. gust response...none. nose dives....many

The Shaw definatly does not nose dive, even when you do silly things like driving it into the back of a wave at speed!

[steveromagnino]

COmparing the boats is as long as a piece of string, but anyhow

Longer boat,lighter boat , deeper lighter keel, more sail area upwind and downwind


WhenSteveromagnino was asked how theViper compared with the Shaw 650 he quoted results based on Racetrack which was based on an old viper from2003.

He did say totake the results“with a bit of a grain of salt.”

On handicap, witha healthy sms rating it will be interesting to see how the Viper 640, Melges 24and Shaw 650 go under the SMS rule around the same racetrack.

The Viper's a lovely boat, and in fact a few Shaw 650 sailors have some experience on them; the owner of Snatch (Shaw 650 in NZ) owned Growler AFAIK was the guy campaigning it back in 2003 when it had the full triple spreader 3 guys on wires turbo masthead kite rig which I think gave it a fair bit more speed and that's what I referred to.

The data of the Growler since 2003-2010 is all on racetrack since going back to the standard rig in 2006 or so, the boat is based out East Bucklands Beach way where it is racing mostly keelers and seems on pace with a Young 88/SR 26/etc BUT again you need to look and some of these are rum races (no kite); if you go through race by race you can pretty much see the pace of the boat - as this is all the data we keep in NZ that's the best place to compare stuff; I think Australia is starting to run the same system.

This information cannot be relied on as it's just one boat; also the boat has the smaller keel and tin rig (I'm not sure that makes it faster or slower) we don't know what the sails are like how well it is sailed, etc and also you would expect that any time you have 4 Vipers (or 8) together, quite quickly the learning curve kicks in and people learn how to sail them faster; that to me is probably more than anything else why the Vipers, M24 and E7 so far have done well in the SMS rule; the rule itself is reasonably accurate and the boats with OD learning curve benefits are therefore getting a little bit more than the one off boats perhaps.
http://www.racetrack.org.nz/boat.php?boatid=1420

The guys who raced with me in Samui in 2009 from Europe race already have a Viper 640 back in Denmark; they felt the boats sailed quite similarly, with, most of the points mentioned, just the feeling of the Shaw being a little bigger, more ergonomic for a crew of 4 as it's a bigger boat, more powerful, more stable with a same size bulb on a deeper draft keel and slightly wider flatter hull shape; and a bit more horsepower downwind so as a result a bit quicker and planed up earlier. As they wanted to race a 4 person boat which would fit into a keelboat fleet, that's why they were looking at a Shaw - a WIP at the moment.

I'm absolutely sure SMS is currently the best rule to compare different sportsboats, and the measurers will make sure the ratings are fair and work over a range of conditions, it's a pretty great time to be sailing this sort of boat. We'll have a ball when we line up a few Shaws, Vipers, M24s, Stealth 7s, etc - it will be a blast.

Shaw certainly doesn't seem to have any nosediving tendencies, it's very very easy to bear away at the top mark then flick up the kite and sail on a plane downwind. I can't think of any particularly nasty tendencies, other than a desire to want to keep going downwind even though the leeward mark is getting close by ;_)

[Evo]

We'll have a ball when we line up a few Shaws, Vipers, M24s, Stealth 7s, etc - it will be a blast.

yep. best thing going on in boats....other than the TP52 tractor pull

[steveromagnino]

We'll have a ball when we line up a few Shaws, Vipers, M24s, Stealth 7s, etc - it will be a blast.

yep. best thing going on in boats....other than the TP52 tractor pull

[Scotch Whiskey]

The Viper's are a nice boat to sail (and Origami sails his particularly well). Nevertheless, having sailed the T7s and T750s, I like the idea of having a little more horsepower.

This forum is like foreplay...can't wait for the boat to arrive !!!

[steveromagnino]

Regarding this nose diving issue, Kestrahl posted a video a while back just after he launched his boat


Basically the boat just powers along.

I can say having got drenched in Gladstone and once before doing jib a few years back in the Kings Cup that the production boats 2 sail reaching blast along without a beat; however with the kite does seem to make thing s a bit drier; maybe it's sailing at a slightly deeper angle; I'm not sure; but definitely you sail them fairly flat downwind at speed so the water coming up off the windward side is where you get a bit damp sometimes ;-)

I've posted it before, but this is 3 up sailing in something like 15 knots, which built a bit more later in the video, so we had the camera guy out on a wire to make the video a bit more interesting. Again, no real issue of nose diving; according to the guys my boat at about 2.45 you see the boat goes right through a wave; basically this is running in a wind generated chop common in the Gulf of Thailand and the boat slows something like a knot for a second, then keeps right on going.

Actually, I quite like sailing 3 people, just need to find the right 2 big blokes to join me, as the crew weight should be around 300kg or more if possible, otherwise the upwind legs are a bit tough in breeze. Maybe Yarddog and his partner are the ones to go for ;-)))) Here we are sailing with more like 200kg of weight; boat still trucks along pretty good.


It's definitely not a boat you need to hike out the stern to keep the bow up; there's enough volume that the bow doesn't go down, and yet the boat also doesn't seem to suffer upwind from a blunt bow pounding its way to weather.

FOREPLAY... Now given the names of the Shaws to date, that sort of has some potential as a class boat...... ;_)

[barney]

Barney, even if it isnt efficient hiking legs in (not convinced on this though) you can sit very comfortably with your bum out over the edge and feet under the straps giving a slightly bigger effective beam. They tend to sail high and fast at the same time, this may have something to do with the relatively large draft compared to the sail plan.

The rig on Badonkadonk would be lighter than the production boats, not sure what it was but it felt much lighter than it rationally should when you picked it up with one hand

That's true, no question about it, however, I don't really care, as long as I've got the tiller, everybody else is hiking, and I do what I used to on my Finn.

[mezaire]

Noticed quite afew mentions of the Viper 640 wondering how they would compare with the Shaw650 so I’ll throw my five cents worth in seeing I’ve sailed one for a season and halfnow.

We on the WestCoast (Perth) have a bit of experience with the Viper, with four boats arrivingin 2009 and another four arriving in new year 2010/11

It seems many ofthe people commenting on the Viper may not have sailed them just as I have notsailed the Shaw 650. Looking forward to giving it a go, though. Two Shaw 650’sarrive in Perth around December apparently.

Personal opinion of the Viper 640.

Nicely designedand built sports boat. Exciting , challenging, a similar concept to the laser in its simplicity of rig and sail control .

Overall Speed compared to the Shaw 650 –No brainer

Shaw 650 is :

Longer boat,lighter boat , deeper lighter keel, more sail area upwind and downwind

Performance under Australian SMS rating

Viper 640 - .7650 Melges24 - .8070 Shaw650 (peow) .8270

WhenSteveromagnino was asked how theViper compared with the Shaw 650 he quoted results based on Racetrack which was based on an old viper from2003.

He did say totake the results“with a bit of a grain of salt.”

Probably afairer comparison might be the Geographe Bay Race Week 2010 - one of the three big race weeks in Australia

Steveromagnino said in a recent post

“SMS says thereisn't much in it between the M24 and the Shaw; I'd tend to agree. Resultssuggest that on Racetrack and Queensland was 1 day in a bit of breeze; have tosee across the full range; I am sure every boat will have its day both on lineand on handicap.”

The Viper 640seemed very competitive against quality Melges 24 sailors at the Geographe BayRace Week in February , 2010.

15boat fleet 10 raceseries breezesfrom drifting to 20+ knots Race times - 30min races up to 3 hour

The fleetincluded three top names in Australian sailing:

Chris Williams,5 time National Sports Boat Champion.

Peter Chappell, Etchells, Sharpie and 505 nationaltitle holder

Heath Townsend, current Australian Melges 24 Champion

Overall results- Viper 5wins, Melges 5 wins

Summary

The Viper 640 wouldbe expected to be behind the other two classes over the line although it canbeat the Melges in drifters.

On handicap, witha healthy sms rating it will be interesting to see how the Viper 640, Melges 24and Shaw 650 go under the SMS rule around the same racetrack.

I guess we willfind out in February 2011 at Geographe Bay

P.S Onecomparison the Viper wins hands down –$$$

I'll weigh into the debate a little........

Firstly I really don't like the fact the Vipers have no way of mounting an outboard. Basically makes the useless for the two biggest SB regatta's in the country, Geelong and ABRW. Until some one mounts a bracket on the back and finds out how they go in a Cat 5 race then for me there is no arguement at all.

Secondly, I have seen one get layed flat on the Swan under kite and it needed someone to put weight on the keel to come back up. Although I can't remember a exact report I'm pretty sure the Shaw's have a fair bit more stability.

And third point is that at $40,000 odd grand, yes a Viper is cheaper but you can't build one yourself. You should be able to get a Shaw on the water a fair bit cheaper than that if you build it yourself. I personally think that having production and homebuilt boats makes the class far more accessable to more people. I also like fleets where boats are as individual as their owners, not all boring white hulls with white sails all from the same manufacturer.

Well that's my opinion. If I were in the market for a SB I wouldn't go near a Viper, or a M24 for that matter. That said I can see why people would go that way but it's just not for me.

Mez

[GybeSet®]

they've got similar amounts of bulb, a little more depth on the Shaw

really you'd be splitting hairs to find a quantifiable difference re. righting or motor carrying ability,
point taken the Viper will need to actually mount one

where the outboard is placed does not have the effect quite imagined on a skiff-like light sportsboat, as demonstrated by M20 (geelong), Peow at Qld States, Egan Shorty/Quantum, Rip It Up, converted 18 in Bris. Has yet to stop them performing or in fact winning,

I rather like Turkeys explanation "it's all in your mind" and thats from a bloke thats been a bit hard to comprehend at all lately

Upwind you'd place crew centimetres further forward, this movable weight is >= 15 times that of the motor, it could have some small effect ( Both/all boats) but not quite game-changing

[PropPast]

I can understand downwind if the spinnaker goes in the water the boat will probably lay over and I have seen pictures of the m20 with guys on the keel and similar for the viper and what I presume is a shaw in similar circumstances somewhere.

In my keelboat days we got pretty far over more than once.

Exactly how common for these boats to going over and what brings them back? Is it only with the kite up or will they do it upwind also? And if going over do they have enough to stop turtling?

It is pretty chilly in a few lakes round these parts! Would not want to spend too long swimming!

[Fat Bastard]

I've seen two J22's go to the bottom of the pond after tipping, heard about a J24.

At least the Shaw, and viper for that matter wont leave you treading water.

I can understand downwind if the spinnaker goes in the water the boat will probably lay over and I have seen pictures of the m20 with guys on the keel and similar for the viper and what I presume is a shaw in similar circumstances somewhere.

In my keelboat days we got pretty far over more than once.

Exactly how common for these boats to going over and what brings them back? Is it only with the kite up or will they do it upwind also? And if going over do they have enough to stop turtling?

It is pretty chilly in a few lakes round these parts! Would not want to spend too long swimming!

[Cheesy]

I've seen two J22's go to the bottom of the pond after tipping, heard about a J24.

At least the Shaw, and viper for that matter wont leave you treading water.

I can understand downwind if the spinnaker goes in the water the boat will probably lay over and I have seen pictures of the m20 with guys on the keel and similar for the viper and what I presume is a shaw in similar circumstances somewhere.

In my keelboat days we got pretty far over more than once.

Exactly how common for these boats to going over and what brings them back? Is it only with the kite up or will they do it upwind also? And if going over do they have enough to stop turtling?

It is pretty chilly in a few lakes round these parts! Would not want to spend too long swimming!

True, think of them as a big skiff (kind of) if you put it on its side or even right over just lift it back up and keep on racing. The only times Badonkadonk went over while I was on it was upwind in a massive swirling gust (that was anticipated), boat almost stopped main and jib out healing to windward the gust just flattened us, then there was a similar gust around the top mark on the bear away/gybe that flattened us but the boat had turned downwind so it blew over again and turtled, still one guy on the keel and it came back up pretty quick, jumped on and hit 24kts on that leg. One of the issues here was that we were racing with Div 1 keelboats and the race committees were a bit iffy about having a light weight skiff on the course, the self 'rescuing' after capsizing pretty much meant killed any concerns they had.

[Timbo]

I'll weigh into the debate a little........

Firstly I really don't like the fact the Vipers have no way of mounting an outboard. Basically makes the useless for the two biggest SB regatta's in the country, Geelong and ABRW. Until some one mounts a bracket on the back and finds out how they go in a Cat 5 race then for me there is no arguement at all.

There is a factory OB bracket for the Viper from the builder... many Vipes are seen sporting small outboards

Secondly, I have seen one get layed flat on the Swan under kite and it needed someone to put weight on the keel to come back up. Although I can't remember a exact report I'm pretty sure the Shaw's have a fair bit more stability.


I think all powered-up sporties can get knocked down, on the Viper, no need to get on the keel, just blow 8' of the spin halyard, boat pops up, steer down & re-hoist. fairly painless

[RockHead]

I'll weigh into the debate a little........

Firstly I really don't like the fact the Vipers have no way of mounting an outboard. Basically makes the useless for the two biggest SB regatta's in the country, Geelong and ABRW. Until some one mounts a bracket on the back and finds out how they go in a Cat 5 race then for me there is no arguement at all.

There is a factory OB bracket for the Viper from the builder... many Vipes are seen sporting small outboards

Secondly, I have seen one get layed flat on the Swan under kite and it needed someone to put weight on the keel to come back up. Although I can't remember a exact report I'm pretty sure the Shaw's have a fair bit more stability.


I think all powered-up sporties can get knocked down, on the Viper, no need to get on the keel, just blow 8' of the spin halyard, boat pops up, steer down & re-hoist. fairly painless

Thank You Timbo. I was going to chime in with a similar response.

I'm looking forward to getting a chance to sail a Shaw sometime when there are a few more around in the US. They look like boatloads of fun. Crew size is the issue for me though, sailing 3 up is 33% easier to manage for me as the skipper than 4 up. Sailing 5 up in my J/24 days got tiresome, always scrambling to make sure we had crew. I want to spend my time sailing, not phoning up crew at the last minute. One of the major reasons I like my Viper... Now I actually have people calling me for opportunities to sail, which I'd sure would be the same if I had a Shaw!

Oh, and yes, we all know that J/24's can sink when knocked down. I've seen it several times and lived it once!

[Evo]

the chilly water thing does come into it....best out of the water and away as fast as possible. Really cold water that you blokes have in North Am makes a big difference to anyone's sailing considerations. The Viper and Melges 24 blokes have the limits worked you'd think. been plenty of capsizing done there. It's just better here where the water is nice btw

you can turn any boat over.....doesn't matter the size and you don't have to have a lot of wind.....being able to quickly recover and continue has always been a part of sailing boats. a boat designed to go fast and allow for that makes a lot of sense. the rest comes down to a common sense approach to how cold the water is and what will happen in a capsize. don't kill the crew. no matter how bad they are you chose em.

we always practiced capsizing as kids

[Cheesy]

the chilly water thing does come into it....best out of the water and away as fast as possible. Really cold water that you blokes have in North Am makes a big difference to anyone's sailing considerations. The Viper and Melges 24 blokes have the limits worked you'd think. been plenty of capsizing done there. It's just better here where the water is nice btw

you can turn any boat over.....doesn't matter the size and you don't have to have a lot of wind.....being able to quickly recover and continue has always been a part of sailing boats. a boat designed to go fast and allow for that makes a lot of sense. the rest comes down to a common sense approach to how cold the water is and what will happen in a capsize. don't kill the crew. no matter how bad they are you chose em.

we always practiced capsizing as kids

To put it into perspective the capsizes I was talking about were due to gust that some said were over 40kts (wind gear on a lead mine), once on the down wind it just accelerated in the gusts, there are pictures on here of the Y88 that was showing its keel in the same conditions

[Yard Dog]

Actually, I quite like sailing 3 people, just need to find the right 2 big blokes to join me, as the crew weight should be around 300kg or more if possible, otherwise the upwind legs are a bit tough in breeze. Maybe Yarddog and his partner are the ones to go for ;-))))

Oh, true dat. He just had a kid and has been on the hook for that and I just put one in college until he came back home and went all "I don't want to be here" to which one can only say "I don't want you here either, get a job" which, of course, didn't help with the overall domestic situation, so there is some serious need to get back to being a sailor amongst us. Everyone wants it. I get bumps on my skin and the dogs growl at me when the wind comes up, that's how bad it is. And the wife, oy. The kid, forget about it.

But seriously, you guys down under are getting all the production Shaws AND it's spring down there while winter is making life miserable here AND there is no discussion of what is happening with this little lightening bolt in the NA market AND, well, spring is only four or five months away from us miserable buggers in North America, and we wonder what the plans are for our little market. The SA ad set a tone, a note, a vibe, a wonderment.

[Evo]

the chilly water thing does come into it....best out of the water and away as fast as possible. Really cold water that you blokes have in North Am makes a big difference to anyone's sailing considerations. The Viper and Melges 24 blokes have the limits worked you'd think. been plenty of capsizing done there. It's just better here where the water is nice btw

you can turn any boat over.....doesn't matter the size and you don't have to have a lot of wind.....being able to quickly recover and continue has always been a part of sailing boats. a boat designed to go fast and allow for that makes a lot of sense. the rest comes down to a common sense approach to how cold the water is and what will happen in a capsize. don't kill the crew. no matter how bad they are you chose em.

we always practiced capsizing as kids

To put it into perspective the capsizes I was talking about were due to gust that some said were over 40kts (wind gear on a lead mine), once on the down wind it just accelerated in the gusts, there are pictures on here of the Y88 that was showing its keel in the same conditions

still reckon you have to rig for it. lot of blokes in southern hemisphere don't appreciate how cold the water is in North America. The boat is what it is and the good thing these days is the gear available to sail in those conditions.....nothing to do with how the Shaw sails...which i reckon is well. look at stevs vids

turning anything over is slow....the trick is not to

everyone turns over one way or the other in 40kts or they aren't trying

[Kestrahl]

the chilly water thing does come into it....best out of the water and away as fast as possible. Really cold water that you blokes have in North Am makes a big difference to anyone's sailing considerations. The Viper and Melges 24 blokes have the limits worked you'd think. been plenty of capsizing done there. It's just better here where the water is nice btw

you can turn any boat over.....doesn't matter the size and you don't have to have a lot of wind.....being able to quickly recover and continue has always been a part of sailing boats. a boat designed to go fast and allow for that makes a lot of sense. the rest comes down to a common sense approach to how cold the water is and what will happen in a capsize. don't kill the crew. no matter how bad they are you chose em.

we always practiced capsizing as kids

To put it into perspective the capsizes I was talking about were due to gust that some said were over 40kts (wind gear on a lead mine), once on the down wind it just accelerated in the gusts, there are pictures on here of the Y88 that was showing its keel in the same conditions

still reckon you have to rig for it. lot of blokes in southern hemisphere don't appreciate how cold the water is in North America. The boat is what it is and the good thing these days is the gear available to sail in those conditions.....nothing to do with how the Shaw sails...which i reckon is well. look at stevs vids

turning anything over is slow....the trick is not to

everyone turns over one way or the other in 40kts or they aren't trying

It wasn't exactly tropical sailing the shaw in the S hemisphere where we are, below 40 degree's south!

[HILLY]

It's definitely not a boat you need to hike out the stern to keep the bow up; there's enough volume that the bow doesn't go down, and yet the boat also doesn't seem to suffer upwind from a blunt bow pounding its way to weather.

FOREPLAY... Now given the names of the Shaws to date, that sort of has some potential as a class boat...... ;_)
[/quote]

Are you guys doing things different in Asia, that vid of your crew on the wire, is his trap hook upside down for a reason??

[Evo]

It wasn't exactly tropical sailing the shaw in the S hemisphere where we are, below 40 degree's south!

i know....most places in NZ won't kill you in minutes though will they? Seppos have plenty of water that cold across their north even in summer. ice they have....breeze not so much

how much ice do you guys see in a year fer instance? far as i know there is a general lack of skeeters and other such craft here in the SH. be the best example i can think of.

Haven't come across too many sailors here that can even contemplate what it's like (sucky btw imho) without having sailed there....i hadn't even thought about it till a bloke from another boat died while we were in spring training. He was in the water less than 5 mins they reckoned

have a look at the latitudes they sail in and then they have two huge continents directing the arctic shyte straight at em

[Trevor B]

10 degree water and 11 degree air in SUMMER makes one less than enthusiastic about getting soaking wet.
BTW it's windy too.

[GybeSet®]

.
for Sportsboaters, and those who could sail one, and those who may well sail one

congrats Steve on the overseas delivery of the production boat

can't see why anyone worldwide considering a (sometimes double-price) sportie wouldn't look closely at a faster boat built with up-to-date technology and kit,
got a little bit of a i14 'look' to the bow imo

We are proud to have now handed over Situation Normal; the first Shaw 650 to reach Aussie shaws, er, shores.

The new owner is a long time Shaw enthuisiast, having been one of the first customers to approach us 2 years ago. After a lot of time, a few delays and the various changes, it was very enjoyable for both him and us to see the boat finally out of the container in Brisbane and then 5 hours north on the roads to the waters of Gladstone harbour.

For a first day, 20+ knots and a tricky little sail out the harbour didn't deter the crew, who saw some good upwind speed, and a rather wet and fast blast back down the harbour.

With plans to race in the state champs, as well as a few other regional regattas, we are sure the future of Situation Normal will be anything but 'normal'!

(In true Shaw style, the real name of the boat is actually an abbreviation of SNAFU - Aussies and Kiwis need no further explanation)

Unpacked...we rolled out of the container...then drove a LONG way up a lot of roads (good near brisbane, not so good further up the coast)....then we set up things on a nice lawn next to the club....then into the drink....and out to a nice 20-25 knot south easter which offered ideal shakedown first day conditions!

After some VERY wet reaching waaaay too damp for a camera....back to the club...for what seems to be the Aussie tradition of slagging off ya mates, and smacking booze.

Attached Files

•  Shaw P1.JPG   110.8K   34 downloads
•  Shaw p2 inside container.jpg   112.82K   31 downloads

[Magilla Gorilla]

.
for Sportsboaters, and those who could sail one, and those who may well sail one

congrats Steve on the overseas delivery of the production boat

can't see why anyone worldwide considering a (sometimes double-price) sportie wouldn't look closely at a faster boat built with up-to-date technology and kit,
got a little bit of a i14 'look' to the bow imo

Seems you have excluded yourself from your own comment about 'could sail a sportsboat'.

Some peoples view of the world (believe it or not) is different to yours, hence their choice of sportsboat is different.

One day you will learn...

Have you entered that scow Moth of yours in the Moth Worlds yet?

[Obsessed]

Great MG just fuck up another thread with your stalking of GS

Keep this about these sexy little boats. I am now fearing that us with old sporties may be be out of the race! Better start packing a second esky

[steveromagnino]

Are you guys doing things different in Asia, that vid of your crew on the wire, is his trap hook upside down for a reason??

Dunno, he prefers his hook set up that way; I am sure there is some logical reason why it works better the way I and the rest of the world uses it - probably safwer, but he finds that way fine, and has never had any issues, so I let him do his thing.

He's a kiter, so maybe there is some reason behind that - I have no idea how kiters do stuff; probably all back to front and inside out.

Hoping to head out for a sail this weekend.....

[dachopper]

any new footage of the aussie boats?

[Turkey Slapper]

Keep this about these sexy little boats. I am now fearing that us with old sporties may be be out of the race! Better start packing a second esky

Your only one of many fella!

[Frank]

Keep this about these sexy little boats. I am now fearing that us with old sporties may be be out of the race! Better start packing a second esky

Your only one of many fella!

I think the question that should be asked was asked on the ASBA forums. How many old boats are sailed like the new boats and not being competitive. I think you will find the answer is none.
Look at the last few winners of big events. Peow peow, Blokes World and Raptor to name a few. All had regular crew and spent time in the boat. My qld spys tell me Peow was even out doing mid week practice sessions before the states. The level has changed. You have people out there spending the time and money to improve there boats and mainly there crew, gone are days were you can rock up with a new crew and expect to be competitve. Look at the other Shaw 650. Peow won the regatta easily whereas the other got belted. The boat can obviously sail to its rating if you put in the effort and preperation but they had a new team and it will take time. The peow boys put in the time and it paid.
I really think you will struggle to find an example of a older boat like a T7 or E780 that has put the level of effort into winning as what the guys whom have done so lately. Look at the previous nationals last year, a 10yo E7 won. 09 was a 15yo design in the M24 and the year before a Thompson 7. Last year a Stealth 7 won the qld states, NSW states and ABRW. This a shaw won the qld states. The only thing in common with those 5 designs is that all the crews were on th top of there game.
It is more a thing of crews not being competitve not boats, it just happens that the people that want to invest the time and money are choosing to do so in newer boats

[Obsessed]

Keep this about these sexy little boats. I am now fearing that us with old sporties may be be out of the race! Better start packing a second esky

Your only one of many fella!

I think the question that should be asked was asked on the ASBA forums. How many old boats are sailed like the new boats and not being competitive. I think you will find the answer is none.
Look at the last few winners of big events. Peow peow, Blokes World and Raptor to name a few. All had regular crew and spent time in the boat. My qld spys tell me Peow was even out doing mid week practice sessions before the states. The level has changed. You have people out there spending the time and money to improve there boats and mainly there crew, gone are days were you can rock up with a new crew and expect to be competitve. Look at the other Shaw 650. Peow won the regatta easily whereas the other got belted. The boat can obviously sail to its rating if you put in the effort and preperation but they had a new team and it will take time. The peow boys put in the time and it paid.
I really think you will struggle to find an example of a older boat like a T7 or E780 that has put the level of effort into winning as what the guys whom have done so lately. Look at the previous nationals last year, a 10yo E7 won. 09 was a 15yo design in the M24 and the year before a Thompson 7. Last year a Stealth 7 won the qld states, NSW states and ABRW. This a shaw won the qld states. The only thing in common with those 5 designs is that all the crews were on th top of there game.
It is more a thing of crews not being competitve not boats, it just happens that the people that want to invest the time and money are choosing to do so in newer boats

Yeah I agree. Good point. Now if my boat wasnt in 1000 pieces I would go sailing to remedy that

[Turkey Slapper]

Yeah i agree! It was the first time i had sailed my boat, spent no money, and myself and crew had never sailed together before or won anything!

Get some new spys!

[Frank]

Yeah i agree! It was the first time i had sailed my boat, spent no money, and myself and crew had never sailed together before or won anything!

Get some new spys!

How do you know you wouldn't have done well. You didn't even do make the first mark so how can you say that you wouldn't have been competitve

[Turkey Slapper]

Cause you said!

Mmmmm, sarcasim eh!

[Magilla Gorilla]

Keep this about these sexy little boats. I am now fearing that us with old sporties may be be out of the race! Better start packing a second esky

Your only one of many fella!

I think the question that should be asked was asked on the ASBA forums. How many old boats are sailed like the new boats and not being competitive. I think you will find the answer is none.
Look at the last few winners of big events. Peow peow, Blokes World and Raptor to name a few. All had regular crew and spent time in the boat. My qld spys tell me Peow was even out doing mid week practice sessions before the states. The level has changed. You have people out there spending the time and money to improve there boats and mainly there crew, gone are days were you can rock up with a new crew and expect to be competitve. Look at the other Shaw 650. Peow won the regatta easily whereas the other got belted. The boat can obviously sail to its rating if you put in the effort and preperation but they had a new team and it will take time. The peow boys put in the time and it paid.
I really think you will struggle to find an example of a older boat like a T7 or E780 that has put the level of effort into winning as what the guys whom have done so lately. Look at the previous nationals last year, a 10yo E7 won. 09 was a 15yo design in the M24 and the year before a Thompson 7. Last year a Stealth 7 won the qld states, NSW states and ABRW. This a shaw won the qld states. The only thing in common with those 5 designs is that all the crews were on th top of there game.
It is more a thing of crews not being competitve not boats, it just happens that the people that want to invest the time and money are choosing to do so in newer boats

Yeah I agree. Good point. Now if my boat wasnt in 1000 pieces I would go sailing to remedy that

While your boat is in 1000 pieces, just take the windex and put it on a Shaw 650 - problem solved

[Obsessed]

Shit broke the windex

[mahasky]

Whats the difference between the 2 Shaws in Aus?
The production boat rates SMS .816 & the home built Peow is .827.
Is the difference in sail area or weight ?

[GybeSet®]

on the authorities list yeah , good question

there is a discrepency somewhere ? ?, in the QASBA results production boat raced at o.829 ?



http://results.rqys....LD/01RGrp39.htm

what will the production boat rate

[Situation Normal]

The main reason for the change was due to the production boat being weighed at the states and being heavier than what was thought. The reason the 2 boats are now so different are mainly sail sizes, Peow apparently has a larger headsail otherwise the boats would be basically the same rating

[Evo]

i think Gobby was noting they were the same rating no?

[Turkey Slapper]

Some measurements wernt as they were supposed to be!

From both sides of the tasman!


Mmmmm!

[Evo]

huh?

I'm confused...easily done but if the production boat was heavier and has smaller sails it evens out the rating???? it's not like it's a Melges and expected to be the same as another one is it?

[HTFU]

huh?

I'm confused...easily done but if the production boat was heavier and has smaller sails it evens out the rating???? it's not like it's a Melges and expected to be the same as another one is it?

The production boat no. was derived from their OD min weights etc. The sails where all measured individually. The boat could not be weighed in time for the Qld Titles as it arrived 10 days beforehand so the OD min weight with motor and safety gear (same as the M24) was applied to their SMS for this event. Boat was then weighed the afternoon before the Qld Titles and the real weight has since been applied. It's SMS has reduced accordingly as the actual weight is about 20% higher than the OD weight used.

The original plan was to have the production boats have the same SMS or an OD SMS. The OD standards of the class is however not to the standard of say the M24's etc and each boat will need to be measured individually for its SMS. Hopefully this will improve with time and an OD no. can be issued.

[Evo]

huh?

I'm confused...easily done but if the production boat was heavier and has smaller sails it evens out the rating???? it's not like it's a Melges and expected to be the same as another one is it?

The production boat no. was derived from their OD min weights etc. The sails where all measured individually. The boat could not be weighed in time for the Qld Titles as it arrived 10 days beforehand so the OD min weight with motor and safety gear (same as the M24) was applied to their SMS for this event. Boat was then weighed the afternoon before the Qld Titles and the real weight has since been applied. It's SMS has reduced accordingly as the actual weight is about 20% higher than the OD weight used.

The original plan was to have the production boats have the same SMS or an OD SMS. The OD standards of the class is however not to the standard of say the M24's etc and each boat will need to be measured individually for its SMS. Hopefully this will improve with time and an OD no. can be issued.

okay...thanks for explaining that.

so the number Mahasky quoted above 0.816 is the new adjusted handicap??? if the production boat weighed less (60kgs?? wow) it would be closer to the 0.829 number that it raced as??

sort of expected these boats to have some differences. wouldn't doubt there will be enough differences to need the SMS system to race well.

[mahasky]

So is the .816 rating the up-dated one taking into account new weight figures?

[steveromagnino]

The original weight was provided based on the expected minimum weight of the boat, plus the addition of some additional equipment and safety gear. This was estimated erring on the side of being underweight, as all rating rules will penalise lightness more than heaviness.

Having now seen the full list of safety gear, (e.g. anchor with chain, fuel etc etc) it is quite clear our assumption of what the additional equipment and safety gear might weigh and also a slight increase in hull weights as deckgear and EVA foam decking etc went on, was lower than reality. We knew there might be an adjustment once a real set of scales was used rather than estimates combined with weighing the boat and rig at various points.

All glass class boats are of similar weight.

The boat weight including engine, fuel safety stuff, all gear is 400kg, and this is similar (marginally higher) than Peow Peow. Peow Peow also carries apparently slightly larger sails.

Therefore, we can expect future Shaw 650s from us using our class sails to rate the same as Situation Normal, although as I understand each is going to be checked individually for now.
0.816