484 replies to this topic

[steveromagnino]

OK, as the other thread is kind of full of the dramas of production, this is the new thread for the new production Shaw 650.

Moneyshot, the first production Shaw 650 built in New Zealand recently reached Westhaven Marina.

A repeat of the other thread: the boat looks a bit like this:

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[steveromagnino]

After a week of fairly lousy weather, the boat finally got to enjoy her first taste of getting wet, with a late Autumn sail Kiwi style after the pull down test.

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[crossa]

OK, as the other thread is kind of full of the dramas of production, this is the new thread for the new production Shaw 650.

Moneyshot, the first production Shaw 650 built in New Zealand recently reached Westhaven Marina.

A repeat of the other thread: the boat looks a bit like this:

well done looks great, how does it go versus the the others
cheers crossa

[steveromagnino]

And just in case you're wondering when one will reach Aussie, well here is the first Aussie boat, rumour is the name has something to do with Purple, headed for Maroon country, deck went on today.

It's like a Rachel Hunter Pantene ad, it won't happen overnight, but it will happen.

And it did. The pics said so.

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[steveromagnino]

well done looks great, how does it go versus the the others
cheers crossa

Thanks Crossa.

You guys in the South Island I am not sure that Badonkadonk is entirely representative of speed of the boat - a lot of that boat's speed is due to the blokes yanking strings and steering.

But that said, there are a few differences between this and the wooden boats which have tended to improve in construction technique over time.
- the production boats weigh 130kg complete hull and decks; most of the wooden boats weigh more with Pornstar up around 185kg; over time our FEA says the glass boats will stay stiff and strong - for the most part the wooden boats have also stayed stiff and strong, but as with many cedar strip planked boats, there is sometimes a slight cosmetic issue of planking eventually poking through in the paint job
- the production boats are the first sporting synthetic rigging, a weight saving aloft, and are full carbon rig, boom, prod - some of the wooden boats have aluminium booms/spreaders, I think they all now have carbon rigs though
- the production boats use a 100kg bulb aimed to comply with ASBA self righting requirements (hence the pull down test) while most of the wooden boats sport 85kg bulbs
- the production boats use a main bridle; some of the wooden boats have travellers
- the production boats use the same production sails used on Badonkadonk and Pornstar; however construction is in loadpath, again, a slight weight saving
- both production and wooden boats have tended to adopt completely innappropriate boat names, and we hope this trend will continue

We believe that the production boats should end up perhaps with a slightly more forgiving profile to sail, given the slightly increased ballast, as a result of careful weight management throughout the build and fitting out process, there should be no reason to expect the boat is heavier than any of the predeccessors, and therefore sailing performance should be very even between all boats.

It will be fun finding out! A few PMs and messages from south islanders suggests there isn't a shortage of people willing to help us test that theory though!

[frayedsheet]

- the production boats use a 100kg bulb aimed to comply with ASBA self righting requirements (hence the pull down test) while most of the wooden boats sport 85kg bulbs

Not meaning to be picky but there aren't any ASBA self righting rules... just what Yachting Australia puts out.

How did the pull down go? HSF or RMI?

Also, many of the ASBA fleet and the Viper640's seems to have got on just fine by satisfying ISO12217. Unlike HSF/RMI, ISO doesn't stipulate a load that the boat must hold at the hounds or tip, just that it must come up from a position with the mast tip touching the water with the crew weight in the boat... that and the height of openings above the waterline and the way the buoyancy compartments are divided up.

[steveromagnino]

- the production boats use a 100kg bulb aimed to comply with ASBA self righting requirements (hence the pull down test) while most of the wooden boats sport 85kg bulbs

Not meaning to be picky but there aren't any ASBA self righting rules... just what Yachting Australia puts out.

How did the pull down go? HSF or RMI?

Also, many of the ASBA fleet and the Viper640's seems to have got on just fine by satisfying ISO12217. Unlike HSF/RMI, ISO doesn't stipulate a load that the boat must hold at the hounds or tip, just that it must come up from a position with the mast tip touching the water with the crew weight in the boat... that and the height of openings above the waterline and the way the buoyancy compartments are divided up.

yes, to be clear I mean the blue book requirements.

We have determined that we will use the ISO requirements for a dayboat which is basically entirely sealed as per the Viper.

The Viper and Shaw (and Raptor etc) are very similar dimensions, and the HSF/RMI requirements seem to encourage a test mass that would require a bulb size or length detrimental to the concept of the boats. We have the results back now.

ISO it is!

[frayedsheet]

yes, to be clear I mean the blue book requirements.

We have determined that we will use the ISO requirements for a dayboat which is basically entirely sealed as per the Viper.

The Viper and Shaw (and Raptor etc) are very similar dimensions, and the HSF/RMI requirements seem to encourage a test mass that would require a bulb size or length detrimental to the concept of the boats. We have the results back now.

ISO it is!

ahhh good stuff! seems to be the modern way.
So whack on that 85kg bulb instead so everyone can scare themselves a bit more! haha

[fullsail]

This is good news Kipsan.
Congratulation.


Christian.

[Situation Normal]

awesome looks good
can't wait to get the SNAF in the water

[gone]

Definitely a fine moneyshot...

[schoonerman]

Con-fucking-gratulations !!!!!

WOOHOO.

Send me a ticket, I wanna sail !

Great News Buddy. So glad this is sorting out so well.

Let me know if there's anything I can do.

[Sail IC]

What a beautiful boat and build ---- Congrats. Everything just looks right.

A sportsboat should have no more ballast than making it self righting. If using lead for RM/stability, its not a sportsboat. Then either make it wider at deck level or reduce sailarea.

The Shaw 650 is one of the few real sportsboat (I know, my RSK6 is not really sports boat either).

Enjoy

[Alkamid]

Now we're talking..... Nice work.

See you at Key West Raceweek.

[gone]

For those of us with a short attention span...

New Pics on the water?

[Yard Dog]

For those of us with a short attention span...

New Pics on the water?

Second that. It would be nice to see the new production sails under load and to hear more about their evolution.

The boat looks great, Kip. You must be pleased. Can't wait to see one here.

[steveromagnino]

Well, I've been suffering from the dreaded lurgy, too sick to fly down to NZ, and a week in hospital, and I seem to be on the road to recovery.

So sailing pics are a bit of a work in progress. The boat is going out, the photographer isn't. Grrr.

In the meantime, more pics. Sailing ones on the way, few more logistics getting 'em.

I CAN show the production sails; as standard on Pornstar and also Badonkadonk. We've been sailing with the production sails (1st and 2nd generation) for over a year. The new loadpaths are same shape, just slightly lighter again. The slight adjustments we found worked better was adding flutter battens and adjusting the luff curve as well; now we are sure we have a quick set up.

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[Situation Normal]

Have you been able to sail it against the home builds to see performance differences between home build and production boats

[steveromagnino]

Have you been able to sail it against the home builds to see performance differences between home build and production boats

Not yet, that's part of the winter program in NZ.

Certainly the aim of the glass boats was to make the boat easier to sail; so that's why Rob/team increased the bulb to 100kg whereas the homebuilds are mostly less than this. Against that, there is the reality that there is a lot more variance in the wooden boats, with some being substantially heavier than the glass boats anyhow; possibly 2 are built very light to be almost as light as the glass ones.

Therefore, we're hopeful that the boats will perform not too far apart; its one of the goals right from the start, to create a class that people can enter by buying one or by building one.

[Just Another Sailor]

This and other designs like these are really cool. Question? Why not design them with racks? It's time for a newer version of the Martin 243!  martin 243.jpeg   2.2K   118 downloads

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[trucdesign]

This and other designs like these are really cool. Question? Why not design them with racks? It's time for a newer version of the Martin 243!  martin 243.jpeg   2.2K   118 downloads

I agree, racks really increase performance and fun

[GybeSet®]

the 'rack' version exists if you visit Shaws website or read back in here a bit,or visit RaceTrack for hist race data.

What you've gotta realise is that the Std version is so bloody fast for it's size it's not gonna make any practical difference, unless you're in the one race in NZ where the (1) turbo starts.

the Std version is VERY very competitive against it across the range of different conditions lighter-nimble
(i.e. see Manics data against the the Turbos in RaceTrack)

To sell in numbers in the market there is only one choice, and an extreme one will remain an oddity in a few (one?) locations

I fer one wanna see the 650 out there in numbers !

[Cheesy]

Well, I've been suffering from the dreaded lurgy, too sick to fly down to NZ, and a week in hospital, and I seem to be on the road to recovery.

So sailing pics are a bit of a work in progress. The boat is going out, the photographer isn't. Grrr.

In the meantime, more pics. Sailing ones on the way, few more logistics getting 'em.

I CAN show the production sails; as standard on Pornstar and also Badonkadonk. We've been sailing with the production sails (1st and 2nd generation) for over a year. The new loadpaths are same shape, just slightly lighter again. The slight adjustments we found worked better was adding flutter battens and adjusting the luff curve as well; now we are sure we have a quick set up.

Looking good, what is the third control line (red one)? Are you running the main sheet to a block on the floor instead of off the boom, thats pretty much personal preferance and easy to change anyway.

GS racks would make a difference even without the turbo rig, infact arent the 'standard' ones faster than the turbo one on race track anyway?

[Jono]

I did the boat test for Boating NZ on Manic - Rob's boat several years ago. I've kept a lazy eye on threads and progress over time and haven't felt the need to be involved until now.

Guys - please don't dilute this tread with "helpful"suggustions of racks and wires.
Firstly this little boat doeasn't really need them as explained earlier in the thread and with Porn Star over the years.
Second. Help the Production team build on their progress to date and sell squillions of these boats all over the world. The boat as is is good enough and fast enough to deserve to be in fleets everywhere.

I look forward to hearing of the first fleet sale

[GybeSet®]

GS racks would make a difference ..

Sure would,
would be lucky to sell one in each continent (somewhat like, even less than the js9000)
i DID clarify mythat point btw
agree w/ Jono esp about sidetracking the main issue here

the PRODUCTION Shaw 650 is a fantastic mass-market proposition

the speed per dollar ratio is unmatched in a ballasted boat, the technology unmatched at the price... yet simple (as in skiffs less gadgetry is quicker)

will see anyone serious about buying a 'REAL' performance boat at a price flocking to it
( A Lotus in a showroom full of Celicas & H'dai FX Coupes?)

yet STILL at the SB 'entry-level' price. As ... or even less expensive as the the OLD-tech &/or heavy slugs
.

[Crazy]

Nice lines!

I really like the cockpit layout too.
What did you use as antislip mat (black) in the cockpit?

/Niklas

[steveromagnino]

Niklas -

decking is 3mm EVA foam; given that the Moneyshot is for NZ All Black country where it often cold and crap weather some of the time, black is fine.

For the next boat, the foam is white; boat after that a light grey - depends on what the buyer wants and that's relating to where they live; up here in Thailand black deck would be 'a bit hot' to say the least!

Basically, the reason why we went with foam:
- sportboats sometimes you can can struggle a bit to do things standing up or to stay on their feet; particularly in 15-25 knots downwind, these boats will be doing 15-20 knots downwind and overtaking waves, moving around a lot; the foam is a bit nicer and grippier to fall on that the anti slip surfacings used in bigger boats which can be a little like sandpaper
- it is easy to replace in panels in future
- side decks it's comfortable
- there are some reasons for building it this way rather than the old approach of a pattern in the gelcoat texture deck; we didn't really find a good production pattern deck finish easy to use in the fibreglass production process as most of them are either too grippy or not grippy enough plus they are a devil to produce unless you throw truckloads of materials around (which is why you usually see race boats these days with either EVA, anti slip matting or anti slip paints)
- 100,000 windsurfers and paddleboards a year using EVA foam, they must know something

When I first learned of the Shaw 650 (on sailing anarchy) back in 2006, I asked Rob all the same questions about racks and wires and turbo rigs and blah blah blah.

Basically, you gain speed marginally from it, but the gain isn't necessarily justifying the additional effort, cost and increased difficulty to sail the boat for the average sailor (i.e. me then and me now), and also sailing with keelers they often arne't particularly enamoured with boats sporting crews on tracks and wires sailing with them, which is often how we sail sporties around the world. Ocassionally for kicks we sail my boat with traps for fun from time to time, but the boat is a pleasure to sail the way I'd say the majority of sportboats choose to set their boats up - with legs in hiking - no wires. It's a moderate sail area boat without a wacking great bulb, so it rewards hiking but is self righting and quiiiick downwind. The little hiking wings are more than enough beam for a boat 6.5m long and at 2.45m its trailerable everywhere without having to fold/pack up/tilt etc. In answer to why not restrict hiking, i guess I would say that there's a 0.5 knot gain from hiking in breeze upwind - sometimes more. I'd rather hike it - for those who see it otherwise, now there are boats to choose from that ensure the entire OD fleet are all restricted. If you want wires, there's still the Magic out there for OD trapeze racing. Most of the rest are similar to the Shaw - feet in, comfy hiking where all the crew get to do something and you sail as a group shoulder to shoulder. Great fun.

If you want to know what a Shaw with racks and wires looks like, check out the Animal Biscuits, what I would say is one of the quickest sportboats - to give you an idea Custard Truck (shaw 7) and Animal Biscuits (shaw 750) are sailing at the speeds of NZ's quickest racing 40 footers. In Hong Kong Custard Truck was something like 35% quicker on average than an SB3, and 20% quicker than a Magic over the first few days I kept data for in 15-20 knots breeze. www.shawyachtdesign.com

With such outstanding performance....there is 1 7.5 sailing, 1 7.5 under construction and 1 7m. By comparison there are more than 15 Shaw 650s now already (counting under constructions, completed, glass and wood). There's a balance between performance and how easy the boat is to sail. The 650 is right in that sweet spot of fun, quick, easy to sail, and because its small, the sheet loads are relatively low and the cost of everything is not too high.

The other benefit under the SMS rule it seems to be rewarding moderate sail area (vs. big sails upwind) and moderate beam (as opposed to aircraft carriers) but displacement (or lack of) is not punished. This is why this fast growing rule seems to rate boats like the Viper and Shaw fairly :-). Making the boat wider so it can carry more sail then upsizing all the deckgear and the mast which means increasing the bulb which means increasing the technology of the hull to get the weight down which means increased cost and then adding on complexity like articulating prods and so on.....the reason I fell in the love with the design was I like the philosophy of light, small rig, fast, easy to sail - stepping off that roundabout.

[GybeSet®]

yeah, while SMS is more forgiving than the other systems, below STILL applies however
Upsizing for the hell of it merely upsizes the TCF disportionately, as each 'power' increase (say RM) is matched by another(height, sail).Basically ur tying a very expensive noose for yourself ! (handicap-wise)

Go too far and you end up creating a 'big' boat with a short waterline(relative to its handicap), not a winning feature, especially upwind & across the full spectrum of conditions

as Jono sez, back to the topic at hand !

[Craic]

What's the budget for one of these production boats at race ready?

[VERGE]

Pricing is on their web site: Shaw 650

[Gappy]

Verge

Why weren't you or Lee out yesterday to cold for you?

Cheers

Gappy

[mattyg]

we had an interesting today in wellington, 40 knot gusts 290kg boat! Go the shaw!

[haz]

we had an interesting today in wellington, 40 knot gusts 290kg boat! Go the shaw!

Hey ...

This picture's from Mt. Victoria, taken about 10:40AM on March 14, 2010.

One of these you? Wife and I were wandering Wellington waiting for the InterIslander and happened to catch this start.

Sorry for the (slight) hijack!

Haz

[Yard Dog]

There's a balance between performance and how easy the boat is to sail. The 650 is right in that sweet spot of fun, quick, easy to sail, and because its small, the sheet loads are relatively low and the cost of everything is not too high.

That works. Those that want to turbo it up can, but up here the interest is in OD boats with everything else in this size category pretty much racing on the fringe or sitting in the garage. My partner is talking about putting traps on if we buy one, but I doubt we will race it that way. Well, I won't, anyway. Thanks for the detailed shots of the cockpit. Looks great. Thanks for explaining the black decks. I was wondering. Whatever lurgy is, don't bring it north when you come.

[Cheesy]

There's a balance between performance and how easy the boat is to sail. The 650 is right in that sweet spot of fun, quick, easy to sail, and because its small, the sheet loads are relatively low and the cost of everything is not too high.

That works. Those that want to turbo it up can, but up here the interest is in OD boats with everything else in this size category pretty much racing on the fringe or sitting in the garage. My partner is talking about putting traps on if we buy one, but I doubt we will race it that way. Well, I won't, anyway. Thanks for the detailed shots of the cockpit. Looks great. Thanks for explaining the black decks. I was wondering. Whatever lurgy is, don't bring it north when you come.

Thats the great thing about them, you dont need to 'turbo' them they are incredibly fast for their size, they also sail pretty high upwind and above the so called hull speed. The foam on the cockpit floor is a good idea as well, it will help save the knees in light shifty wind

[steveromagnino]

Thats the great thing about them, you dont need to 'turbo' them they are incredibly fast for their size, they also sail pretty high upwind and above the so called hull speed. The foam on the cockpit floor is a good idea as well, it will help save the knees in light shifty wind

Yeah. They punch above their weight.

A few pics of some light wind sailing down in Auckland. Stronger conditions and some planing shots will come next time out; this time round was sub 6 knots and the boat is just starting to break in about 8-9 knots (hey, the boat is like a formula windsurfer already, it definitely planes up earlier than most) and if you aren't fully planing in 10-12 knots of wind speed, something is wrong.

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[H'n'F]

Looking Good!

[steveromagnino]

Looking Good!

thanks mate, you should contact the owner (who you know) regarding some winter sailing while your boat is out of the water.

Weather in NZ really is a shocker, but Sunday was a nice 15-20 knots most of the day dying a bit at sunset, so the guys went and tested the number 2 jib, and enjoyed some downwind sailing with the class kite; only problem with the Shaws is like most sporties they do 6.7 knots (target speed) upwind, but are sitting on 2 - 3 times that coming back down. If only races were all downhill....

Few more tweaks to the rig should see a bit more performance but so far things are looking well sweet.

One nice thing is the Shaw is just balanced nicely fore and aft both with and without the kite; body position of the crew works best when everyone is together, but we don't ever feel the need to hang out the stern; the boat just planes up and gooooooooooooooooes.

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[Evo]

how many kgs aboard in those pics? (don't mention the luff round)

looks great fella

[Magilla Gorilla]

Noice....

[steveromagnino]

thanks Evo :_) Bit more work on the mast shape and sails settings to go.

AFAIK crew weight about 320kg and the boat itself all up weight in these pics would be something like 295kg as there's no motor (most of the kiwi boats sail without them as that's the marina right there).... but possibly some beer :-)

If racing, this would be good with either jib up; kite selection would depend on the course; if running then this is the kite to use in anything up to about 25.

Nice closing shot for ya :-)

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[VERGE]

The wind really died away during the sail, it was maybe 12 to 15 knots with occasional gusts. Prior to setting up the wind had been higher hence the No.2 Jib. Was great fun as the photos show.

[Cheesy]

we had an interesting today in wellington, 40 knot gusts 290kg boat! Go the shaw!

No 2 jib and you should have been fine, how fast did you get it?

[Hairy M]

Kip,

What is your phone number in New Zealand as the one on the Website is unavailable.

[Evo]

Was great fun as the photos show.

no kidding. best boat porn in quite some time. thanks fer the pics sm

just looks proper fun. buty!

[Heaven can wait]

Kip,

What is your phone number in New Zealand as the one on the Website is unavailable.

Hairy, shoot Stevo a pm and he'll get in touch with you. Kip's a lovely bloke to deal with as is Kips brother, who overseas the boats in NZ.

[mattyg]

we had an interesting today in wellington, 40 knot gusts 290kg boat! Go the shaw!

No 2 jib and you should have been fine, how fast did you get it?

well we left the number 2 jib in the car, next to the small kite, oops.
we overtook the T30 down wind without hoisting our kite!

[MR.CLEAN]

oy kip-san, wtf do i have to do to get a story out of you on yer new baby? And some decent pics taken from a decent camera?

[GybeSet®]

.
clean-san, don't go looking fer him in Japan will ya

[Magilla Gorilla]

One things for certain.... Clean won't be looking for you!

[steveromagnino]

Well, I know that some Aussies aren't keen on the All Black look, and obviously we all want the All Whites to go ok tonight but EVA is not available in Maroon or Aussie gold, so here's the next best thing; for softies who don't want to race standing on 45 degree temperature black decking.

This is the 2nd production boat, destined for Aussie.
- thanks in advance to the owner for allowing me to publish shots of his top secret boat without his permission
:-)
- thanks for the shot from Orange Composites

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[Situation Normal]

oooh there are fittings getting put on, must be getting closer

[mezaire]

Hey guys,

Any chance of pics or/and explination of how you terminated/joined the dynex dux rigging to the mast at the shroud tops??

One guy here has used t/balls with rings and looped the dynex around the t/ball stem and back through the loop. Looks OK but not quite 5 times the line diameter as recommended. Thought about thimbles too but thats alot of windage aloft.

Cheers,

Mez

[Situation Normal]

they have actually ended up going back to Stainless for the time being until a few things can be sorted out

[frayedsheet]

they have actually ended up going back to Stainless for the time being until a few things can be sorted out

It was hard to see the advantage of the dyneema rigging on the Moneyshot... and it was a bit fat. If I was a "wind" I think id definitely prefer to bend around some SS dyform. The SS will look better too as they are going to use some very nifty turnbuckles that will just poke their heads thru the deck for a very clean look.

[steveromagnino]

The Moneyshot has synthetic rigging and because the synthetic doesn't like going around sharp corners, the terminations use thimbles. The diameter, as Frayedsheet points out is higher; in order to ensure we were running at a low % of breaking load (which is the way you need to go to avoid stretch) the diameter is 6mm, vs. dyform 4mm (and in fact some of the boats run 3mm on the uppers).

There is a weight saving, but because the terminations are still turnbuckles at one end and T hooks at the other, some of the potential gains are offset by the same existing wire rigging system type.

We have also spent some time testing the strengths of synthetic and discovered some fairly high variability in breakload and stretch which is not always reflected in the specifications.

Lastly, the advice of many riggers was that synthetic will eventually be the future, but there will be a gap between what is available now and what will be the eventual right approach for synthetic, part of which involves getting rid of all the heavy stainless bits at each end.

For now, as Situation Normal points out all boats sold are running wire rigging, not synthetic, because it is proven, it works and when we can make synthetic work then we'll use it, although I know within the wooden boat fleet at least one owner looked at every single rigging option very very carefully wanting the lightest one, and still went with dyform. This has been explained to all the future owners, and to my knowledge no one is demanding synthetic once they understand why we've made the change.

The chainplate is set below decklevel then the turnbuckles appear through a hole; this stops the various little nicks and catching points when pulling in the kite and things go slightly 'around the corner'. Pic attached. Streamlined turnbuckles+wire=even more schmick.

That time just hasn't come just yet for the synthetics, in our opinion.

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[Flyer32445]

I would be curious to look at SK90 as opposed to Dux. The diameter of the 90 would be smaller and the splices would look a lot cleaner as Dux is so tightly packed from the production process which actually damages some of the fibers on a molecular level. I think you would be able to eliminate the thimbles as the turnbuckle pin diameter should be fine for a radius considering you are probably running the shrouds at 20% of their breaking strength.

Or the super grand prix route get some uni SK90 and make up a set of cables by winding the uni and covering it with technora blended jacket. Take a look at gorilla rigging.com you can see a melges 32 backstay that was done this way.

[doghouse]

Or the super grand prix route get some uni SK90 and make up a set of cables by winding the uni and covering it with technora blended jacket. Take a look at gorilla rigging.com you can see a melges 32 backstay that was done this way.

+1

[GybeSet®]

remember this is a production boat and although of grand-prix performance and bettter material technology generally is still cheaper than the low-tech market competitors

as a proddy offering there is more to be gained by (reliabilty, price) sticking with a time-proven option than experimenting like a development one-off

it's still way ahead in the technology stakes AND cheaper & faster, unprecedently so and comparably to it's one-off & prototype sisters

[mezaire]

Thnaks for the replies re: dyneema rigging guys.

Think I'll just go 4mm Hamma/Dyform as I work in a rigging shop and it's pretty cheap for me!!

Also noticed that some of the Shaw 650's have gooseneck stays and some don't?? Is this just a personal preferance or different rig setups?

[VERGE]

Different masts, Hall spars section on Barely Legal and Wha-ka have no goose neck stays.

[Offshore 1]

Different masts, Hall spars section on Barely Legal and Wha-ka have no goose neck stays.

get back to your sanding...

[bla]

Different masts, Hall spars section on Barely Legal and Wha-ka have no goose neck stays.

get back to your sanding...

Isn't there some saying about a pot and a black kettle?

[akasideshow]

apologies for getting off topic here but what exactly is a goose neck stay
i'm guessing something that attaches at goose neck height
but why would you do that / what does it do?

[Flyer32445]

apologies for getting off topic here but what exactly is a goose neck stay
i'm guessing something that attaches at goose neck height
but why would you do that / what does it do?

its for dealing with the side and torsional loads from gybing if the tube is a little on the light side from a wall thickness and off axis plys stand point

[steveromagnino]

apologies for getting off topic here but what exactly is a goose neck stay
i'm guessing something that attaches at goose neck height
but why would you do that / what does it do?

its for dealing with the side and torsional loads from gybing if the tube is a little on the light side from a wall thickness and off axis plys stand point

Yes. Stabilises the gooseneck area and also stops it from going fwd when u apply vang (which pulls the boom into the mast).

On the shaws with them (most of them) it is a t hook from the mast running into a short 1m long stay which terminates at the chainplates of the verticals and diagonals.

On most boats it is dyneema with a lashing.

We've sailed with them on and off. Helps a lot in mast bend control. Many other sporties use them also.

[Offshore 1]

Different masts, Hall spars section on Barely Legal and Wha-ka have no goose neck stays.

get back to your sanding...

Isn't there some saying about a pot and a black kettle?

Why you little pissant..Oh yeah your mother says hi

[Kestrahl]

Thnaks for the replies re: dyneema rigging guys.

Think I'll just go 4mm Hamma/Dyform as I work in a rigging shop and it's pretty cheap for me!!

Also noticed that some of the Shaw 650's have gooseneck stays and some don't?? Is this just a personal preferance or different rig setups?

They are to take the vang loads. You will find the boats that have travelers don't need them. But if your using a bridle like we had and vang for leech tension you definitely need them or you can't get enough leech tension on the main. We broke one once in a race lost a lot of pace upwind because of it.

We used dyform on Badonkadonk for reliability, it was a pretty special rig being small diameter ultra high modulus and not very replaceable except at great expense. Had 4mm on the caps and forestay and 3mm on the d1's and topmast stays.

[akasideshow]

cool got it, thanks guys
it was written stay (singular) which is where i got confused thought it must have been running forwards!

[mahasky]

Thnaks for the replies re: dyneema rigging guys.

Think I'll just go 4mm Hamma/Dyform as I work in a rigging shop and it's pretty cheap for me!!

Also noticed that some of the Shaw 650's have gooseneck stays and some don't?? Is this just a personal preferance or different rig setups?

They are to take the vang loads. You will find the boats that have travelers don't need them. But if your using a bridle like we had and vang for leech tension you definitely need them or you can't get enough leech tension on the main. We broke one once in a race lost a lot of pace upwind because of it.

We used dyform on Badonkadonk for reliability, it was a pretty special rig being small diameter ultra high modulus and not very replaceable except at great expense. Had 4mm on the caps and forestay and 3mm on the d1's and topmast stays.

Can you get away with no vang at all if you use a full width traveler? Are there any examples of this about?

[teener]

Thnaks for the replies re: dyneema rigging guys.

Think I'll just go 4mm Hamma/Dyform as I work in a rigging shop and it's pretty cheap for me!!

Also noticed that some of the Shaw 650's have gooseneck stays and some don't?? Is this just a personal preferance or different rig setups?

They are to take the vang loads. You will find the boats that have travelers don't need them. But if your using a bridle like we had and vang for leech tension you definitely need them or you can't get enough leech tension on the main. We broke one once in a race lost a lot of pace upwind because of it.

We used dyform on Badonkadonk for reliability, it was a pretty special rig being small diameter ultra high modulus and not very replaceable except at great expense. Had 4mm on the caps and forestay and 3mm on the d1's and topmast stays.

Can you get away with no vang at all if you use a full width traveler? Are there any examples of this about?

Common in multihulls. Wideish boats like the Open 570 have tried it but I think they like a vang in the end.

[GybeSet®]

Can you get away with no vang at all if you use a full width traveler? Are there any examples of this about?

in aus yes, trav is wider than this boat tho, 10-11'

[Kestrahl]

Thnaks for the replies re: dyneema rigging guys.

Think I'll just go 4mm Hamma/Dyform as I work in a rigging shop and it's pretty cheap for me!!

Also noticed that some of the Shaw 650's have gooseneck stays and some don't?? Is this just a personal preferance or different rig setups?

They are to take the vang loads. You will find the boats that have travelers don't need them. But if your using a bridle like we had and vang for leech tension you definitely need them or you can't get enough leech tension on the main. We broke one once in a race lost a lot of pace upwind because of it.

We used dyform on Badonkadonk for reliability, it was a pretty special rig being small diameter ultra high modulus and not very replaceable except at great expense. Had 4mm on the caps and forestay and 3mm on the d1's and topmast stays.

Can you get away with no vang at all if you use a full width traveler? Are there any examples of this about?

You almost could if it went full width onto the wings, there is one here that has a aft traveler full width but it still needs the vang.
After sailing both I would not have the traveler, the boats so much easier to work, and no mainsheet cleat. Its faster sailing it like a skiff than trying to sail it like a keelboat!

[barnone]

Common in multihulls. Wideish boats like the Open 570 have tried it but I think they like a vang in the end.

The Open 5.70 uses the traveller and mainsheet for leech tension on main and for headstay tension. There is a vang on the boom but it does little and acts more like a preventer to prevent the boom from skying downwind. The open's vang does zero upwind.

No surprise since the rotating mast on the open is a three point rotating multihull rig. The mainsheet and traveller give you your headstay tension upwind, so it is critical in heavy air to have the mainsheet on hard the entire time and balance the helm with the traveller. In heavy air you never ease the mainsheet as all that does is dump headstay tension which causes the boat to get pushed sideways. Instead blow the traveller down in a big gust and feather the helm. She tracks very well is heavy air and big waves like this. This is also why the mainsheet is 6:1, cause it needs a lot of tension upwind in a blow. I really enjoy having a powerful traveller, but I understand that other setups don't need it.

[steveromagnino]

The Open 5.70 uses the traveller and mainsheet for leech tension on main and for headstay tension. There is a vang on the boom but it does little and acts more like a preventer to prevent the boom from skying downwind. The open's vang does zero upwind.

No surprise since the rotating mast on the open is a three point rotating multihull rig.

The bridle system is proven on the 18s and all other skiffs; I guess the Shaw and Viper are at the top end of still being able to use a bridle and vang combo; a little bigger and the load on the vang vs. weight means a traveller is probably worth the extra weight.

Of the woodies, a few have travellers, a few have bridles. Race results don't seem to indicate a major benefit to either in general; the designer himself believes a bridle can work well but also has commented before that the ability to adjust it might help in the sub 8 knots conditions; that's the time where you would like to be able to sheet up to windward a little without pulling down. We do have an owner that has asked about the options for a mid boom adjustable bridle, which we are going to experiment about a little with ourselves to see how it works. I still think if you can avoid a traveller on this size boat, it is easier, plus i personally prefer sheeting off the boom (not off the floor) as it creates a lot more space in the cockpit and makes the mainsheet guy hike a lot more ;-)

The vang on the Shaws is plenty of downwards force. The options I guess are bridle or traveller+ vang or GNAV. The GNAV is good for creating cockpit space; but on one tack the sail gets a bit screwed up, plus it is extra weight and cost both in the mast and the GNVAV itself; plus the Shaw is a little larger than some of the other boats, being bang on 6.5m long; slightly smaller and the boat in that area around the mast starts to get a bit tiny. So we run a vang cascade.

I cannot easily comment on the opens or other boats so much, although my brother has spent some time in France alongside the open 570s. I would guess a full width traveller might work with the rotating rig maybe better as the boat is so wide and the traveller is running the full width; on the shaws, to do this the traveller would need to be at wing height, which would be uncomfortable, plus the current system is already light and works using a vang. I note the opens have started running vangs now since they went to more square mains, so perhaps the control of the leech issue and keeping the rig in the boat also impacts that. By comparison, the opens don't run as deep (at a guess), I presume the rotating rig has some effect as you say, the mast relative to sail area appears to be a pretty solid lump of aluminium with the side stays sweeping back a long way and the kites are relatively small so perhaps the stress is less; on the southern hemisphere boats, the prebend, leech tension and swept spreaders and stays keeps the rig in the boat. Forestay tension is mostly locked in through the mast shape and stay tensions.

The Shaw 650 complete boat excluding the ballast is quite a bit lighter than the smaller Open 570 excluding ballast; so I suspect also the other aspect of carrying a little more weight and having extra weight from a traveller in the Open probably hurts relatively less, and the boat is wider and designed well to carry a traveller/multi rotating rig type set up. The Shaw production boats (and some/most of the woodies) have been pretty keen to keep weight out of the boat where possible. Viper is very similar weight to a Shaw, and so is probably the best example of this size boat running a bridle type set up as opposed to traveller.

As Kestrahl says, getting rid of the mainsheet cleats is the single best way to improve the main sail shape ;-)

[Yard Dog]

Well, I know that some Aussies aren't keen on the All Black look, and obviously we all want the All Whites to go ok tonight but EVA is not available in Maroon or Aussie gold, so here's the next best thing; for softies who don't want to race standing on 45 degree temperature black decking.

This is the 2nd production boat, destined for Aussie.
- thanks in advance to the owner for allowing me to publish shots of his top secret boat without his permission
:-)
- thanks for the shot from Orange Composites

I am sure that hull is in the happy hands of its new owner, but how about a few shots of the hull turned upside down?

[Yard Dog]

Well, I know that some Aussies aren't keen on the All Black look, and obviously we all want the All Whites to go ok tonight but EVA is not available in Maroon or Aussie gold, so here's the next best thing; for softies who don't want to race standing on 45 degree temperature black decking.

This is the 2nd production boat, destined for Aussie.
- thanks in advance to the owner for allowing me to publish shots of his top secret boat without his permission
:-)
- thanks for the shot from Orange Composites

I am sure that hull is in the happy hands of its new owner, but how about a few shots of the hull turned upside down?

Replying to my own post. What a moment in ignominy. Has all the love been sucked out of the room or is there just no production model available for pics?

Enough rhapsodic posts about the SB3. How about some titillation (a word I do not use lightly) about the Shaw. If not pictures, how about an update on the NA launch. That time is close and news is sparse.

[Situation Normal]

Well, I know that some Aussies aren't keen on the All Black look, and obviously we all want the All Whites to go ok tonight but EVA is not available in Maroon or Aussie gold, so here's the next best thing; for softies who don't want to race standing on 45 degree temperature black decking.

This is the 2nd production boat, destined for Aussie.
- thanks in advance to the owner for allowing me to publish shots of his top secret boat without his permission
:-)
- thanks for the shot from Orange Composites

I am sure that hull is in the happy hands of its new owner, but how about a few shots of the hull turned upside down?

Replying to my own post. What a moment in ignominy. Has all the love been sucked out of the room or is there just no production model available for pics?

Enough rhapsodic posts about the SB3. How about some titillation (a word I do not use lightly) about the Shaw. If not pictures, how about an update on the NA launch. That time is close and news is sparse.

not quite in the hands of but getting closer

[Just Another Sailor]

the 'rack' version exists if you visit Shaws website or read back in here a bit,or visit RaceTrack for hist race data.

What you've gotta realise is that the Std version is so bloody fast for it's size it's not gonna make any practical difference, unless you're in the one race in NZ where the (1) turbo starts.

the Std version is VERY very competitive against it across the range of different conditions lighter-nimble
(i.e. see Manics data against the the Turbos in RaceTrack)

To sell in numbers in the market there is only one choice, and an extreme one will remain an oddity in a few (one?) locations

I fer one wanna see the 650 out there in numbers !

The rack makes it a boat for everyone. No hiking or great phyical demands. Hell sail her w/ one less crew... talk about saving weight and cost... just my thoughts.

[Cheesy]

the 'rack' version exists if you visit Shaws website or read back in here a bit,or visit RaceTrack for hist race data.

What you've gotta realise is that the Std version is so bloody fast for it's size it's not gonna make any practical difference, unless you're in the one race in NZ where the (1) turbo starts.

the Std version is VERY very competitive against it across the range of different conditions lighter-nimble
(i.e. see Manics data against the the Turbos in RaceTrack)

To sell in numbers in the market there is only one choice, and an extreme one will remain an oddity in a few (one?) locations

I fer one wanna see the 650 out there in numbers !

The rack makes it a boat for everyone. No hiking or great phyical demands. Hell sail her w/ one less crew... talk about saving weight and cost... just my thoughts.

The 'racked' Shaws are about as far away from a 'boat for everyone' as you can get. The performance of 650s will be a shock to the other boats on the start line as they are.....

http://shawyachtdesign.com/SYDmenu.html

[frayedsheet]

Thought you folks might be interested in my little trip over the ditch last month to try out the Moneyshot.... so I finally put some stills and a little video together.

[steveromagnino]

Very happy to take care of the Frayedsheet, and that video captures the Auckland weather perfectly; according to Aucklanders it is basically like that everyday year round. It never rains, and the breeze fills in a bit more than this from time to time. According to the rest of NZ this is a load of crap :-) and Auckland sucks.

Primo soundtrack also :-)

Yarddog, you wanted to see the underneath bit of the boat; here it is during the moulding process, you can see a nice smooth ass of the first boat.

We've just pulled boat 3 out of the moulds now, so things are ticking along. Only real differences to what you see in the video are wire rigging and the choice of colour of the EVA foam; no one else is going black for some reason ;-)

Attached Files

•  PA151100_1.JPG   92.54K   38 downloads

[Yard Dog]

Very happy to take care of the Frayedsheet, and that video captures the Auckland weather perfectly; according to Aucklanders it is basically like that everyday year round. It never rains, and the breeze fills in a bit more than this from time to time. According to the rest of NZ this is a load of crap :-) and Auckland sucks.

Primo soundtrack also :-)

Yarddog, you wanted to see the underneath bit of the boat; here it is during the moulding process, you can see a nice smooth ass of the first boat.

We've just pulled boat 3 out of the moulds now, so things are ticking along. Only real differences to what you see in the video are wire rigging and the choice of colour of the EVA foam; no one else is going black for some reason ;-)

Very nice. Thanks. How are plans for coming to the USA progressing? Oh, and get better soon.

[Niflheim]

Very happy to take care of the Frayedsheet, and that video captures the Auckland weather perfectly; according to Aucklanders it is basically like that everyday year round. It never rains, and the breeze fills in a bit more than this from time to time. According to the rest of NZ this is a load of crap :-) and Auckland sucks.

Primo soundtrack also :-)

Yarddog, you wanted to see the underneath bit of the boat; here it is during the moulding process, you can see a nice smooth ass of the first boat.

We've just pulled boat 3 out of the moulds now, so things are ticking along. Only real differences to what you see in the video are wire rigging and the choice of colour of the EVA foam; no one else is going black for some reason ;-)

Very nice. Thanks. How are plans for coming to the USA progressing? Oh, and get better soon.

Progress update? Did the first boat make it over for the Heaven Can Wait this weekend?

[RockHead]

Thought you folks might be interested in my little trip over the ditch last month to try out the Moneyshot.... so I finally put some stills and a little video together.

Sweet.

After being forced to endure three agonizing days of driving a Sonar, my appreciation for ALL sporties has grown exponentially. Can't wait to see one of these in the US and hopefully have the opportunity to take one for a sail!

[dachopper]

Hey boys,


How long til one of these are racing in Aus?

[mezaire]

Hey boys,


How long til one of these are racing in Aus?

Ones that I know of......2 production boats coming to Perth, 1 of which shpould be here very soon. Also 1 home built one in Tassie.

[steveromagnino]

Status is:
homebuild in Brisbane awaiting a production bulb - Peow Peow - expected launch date with bulb later in October
production boat in Gladstone (also Queensland) going into container this week - expected arrival in Aussie and launch date late October
production boat in Perth awaiting some trailer paperwork stuff - expected arrival in Aussie and launch date November
production boat in Perth just commenced construction - expected arrival in Aussie and launch date early December

Home build in Tassie is running slightly later than this.
Home build in Sydney is running slightly later than this.

So that's 6 boats in Aussie in the next few months all underway, with some more orders we expect to book in the near future as well - will be nice once the Sydney/MacQuarie fleet also gets established too.

[Situation Normal]

just in time for little bit of sailing before the states and nationals at RQ

[dogwatch]

Is there anywhere to store an outboard on this beastie? Not dangling over the stern which is usually banned in SIs here.

[steveromagnino]

Yes, we normally have a bracket on the stern, then you stow the engine away inside the boat next to the keel under the hatches along with fuel, anchor, safety gear, sandwiches, drinks, clothing etc. The boat is split down the centre longitudanlly with a beam, so the boat seems to like engine and fuel on one side, everything else on the other (actually boat likes it this way from an even weight perspective, the crew like their sandwiches sans petrol fumes too). We store the outboard in a big padded bag; seems to work ok.

For the Kiwi guys, most of them never sail with an engine anyhow; similar to many of the Open 570s etc in France. So some have brackets some don't.

In the world of Australia, along with improbable animals like the Koala and Tasmanian Devil and the flightless Kiwi Bondi dollybird, their safety requirements AFAIK as per the 'blue book' for certain categories of racing require the outboard to be on the stern in an immediately deployable position at all times for certain races e.g. Airlie Raceweek. I am unsure how the M20, Viper and SB3 do it; the Melges 24 and also the Shaw 650 both have a hinging bracket so you can raise the engine out of the water and tilt it; this is a slight PITA on any boat with a rear beam across it hence why AFAIK M20, Viper, SB3 and Shaws all ideally store the engines inside the boat; however at least we comply with the requirements when needed. They also require a 3.5HP engine, which is specified for all sportboats, from 8.5m long 3.5m high wooded massive rig arms racers, down to 343kg 6.5m boats; seems overkill for a Shaw/Viper but ah well.

Boats are supplied generally with the fixed position outboard bracket and where owners ask, also a hinging bracket for the few big races that require the very safe unprotected propeller poking out the stern, when the option of safely keeping it below deck and away from harm seems somehow less appropriate.

I would do the same here in Asia and not use an engine(as would the other sporties and also the RS Elites which AFAIK also don't have an engine or even a way to mount one here), but sadly RIs require we carry a motor which we do every time we go out along with enough fuel to motor for a couple of hours; I think in the last 2 years we have never used it to come in or go out of the marina except when we were getting ready to go onto the trailer. I think the RS Elites the one time they did race got permission since it looks pretty hard to mount an engine on one unless out the side.

You can see the hatches in this pic, taken when sailing at the very late afternoon down by the feet.

Attached Files

•  litewindsailing.jpg   38.49K   67 downloads

[dogwatch]

Thanks. Hamble River is sportsboat central in the UK and the ebb tide can approach 5 knots on big springs. Also the normal race area is about 3 miles from the river entrance and it's fairly common to motor out in a calm and wait for the sea breeze to arrive and racing to begin. There are keelboats that operate out of the Hamble without outboards but honestly it's a PITA sometimes.I believe the SB3s have to carry outboards or equivalent weight.

[steveromagnino]

yep, the issue's not so much with having an engine; many locations around the world makes total sense. More an issue with where to keep it when not motoring; AFAIK Viper and SB3 store it somewhere under the foredeck, which is more logical from a sailing perspective than leaving it on the stern, and so that's why for this boat the way is to store it low and on the centre of gravity under deck next to the keel.

[GybeSet®]

logical? .... until it's blowing 25 downwind, then you'd be wishing like hell it was not for'ard

I believe the m20 would have had one on the stern at Geelong, & the i550, and the Egan 6m Shorty/Quantum always has

12.5kg It's just not a measurable performance difference, (visually yes), and it's the same for everyone here. The crew would have to sit about 25mm further forward to compensate .... till it blows

unless it's a class rule, can't imagine why uk S.I.s would mandate having them put away ? tho I realise hanging them off the back is an antipodean thing

the best compromise here is what the Stealths, Egan & bull 7000s do, they swing back on board but still ready to use, and sit in the corner of the cockpit, this is the 'visual' of sticking out and brings the weight in a tad

[dogwatch]

can't imagine why uk S.I.s would mandate having them put away ?

Safety. Don't want bits of sharp heavy metal on the bow or stern where they are liable to bash crews in case of collisions. SIs here generally disallow outboards on the stern and for cruisers, anchors on the bow.

[Sandgroper Yachting]

Doesnt the blue book state that if you store fuel below you need two means of escape, ie. fwd hatch as per the T7's?
I know of one boat at GBRW that emptied the fuel from the outboard and stored it in the cabin with the fuel stored on the transom as they only had a companionway hatch and no forward hatch.

[GybeSet®]

can't imagine why uk S.I.s would mandate having them put away ?

Safety. Don't want bits of sharp heavy metal on the bow or stern where they are liable to bash crews in case of collisions. SIs here generally disallow outboards on the stern and for cruisers, anchors on the bow.

40 yrs of trailer yachting, even preceding the SBs has proved otherwise, TY & prev. cat6 & cat5 mandate the outboard 'in place'

they are not liable to bash crews unless you sail backwards

the crew are more liable to injury moving a 6-8hp to and from the stern, we do this in cat7 where a motor (and therefore 'motor on stern') is optional

[bye bye]

12.5kg hanging off the stern in any conditions? For the sake of performance and style. No thanks.

[dogwatch]

they are not liable to bash crews unless you sail backwards

Backwards, forwards, sideways and occasionally downwards. I've even seen one go upwards (lifted skywards in collision with a bigger boat). All things are possible when 50+ boats are trying to round a mark at the same time and bouncing off one another.

[frayedsheet]

12.5kg hanging off the stern in any conditions? For the sake of performance and style. No thanks.

yea, i agree, but sometimes its just easier to leave it there.

That said i dont quite see the rationale of a blanket rule requireing it on the stern. The requirement was ditched in '09 to even have an outboard for Cat 6 so that just leaves 5. Given the various designs of boat that can now sail under cat 5 I think the decision should be left to the owner.

Sure it may come in handy to have the motor sitting there, but when youre really in the shit the motor, (if its sized according to the ASBA constitution, ie 3hp and/or blue book) is not going to be of any real use on most boats.

One one hand, if it is sitting there, it might be drowned, on the other, if you really do want to put it on in a blow, youll probably drop it. So, like the decision to race or not, my vote would be to leave the decision with the owner/crew.