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Whisker Pole Anarchy!


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#1 Ajax

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Posted 01 June 2010 - 03:19 AM

In the midst of preparations for my parents' impending visit, I finally made it out for a sail today. (Hey, if you knew my parents you'd understand why I put off sailing.)

I was out long enough to thoroughly piss off my sig-o, so it must have been a good sail. I made a downwind run from the Rhode River to Annapolis and I finally got to try out the whisker pole. (I took pictures. I'll upload them tomorrow) Here's what I learned:

1. It's the next best thing to a spinnaker if you don't have a spinnaker.
2. Steer carefully.
3. It's a PITA to use if you're singlehanding. (Explanation below)

Guess what else I learned today? Somewhere in the COLREGS, there's an obscure passage that says "A Coronado 25 is the burdened vessel in all traffic situations, whether under engine power, or under sail". Whether motoryacht or sailboat, no one would give me the time of day when it was my turn to be the stand-on vessel. Posted Image

So, if you have a whisker pole clipped in, and you discover that the asshat upwind of you isn't going to give you any room, it's a real PITA to get the tillerpilot set up so that you're SURE you won't gybe and get swept off your own ride, clamber up on deck and get that damned pole unclipped, run back, throw it in the cabin, disconnect the tillerpilot and get out of the asshat's way.

The upwind run to home was mostly fine. I made long tacks to the SW, and when I ran up against the shore, I made a short tack East, to get away from land, and run SE again. Near the Rhode, the wind changed direction abruptly, and freshened. I got discombobulated and it took me a while to understand what'd happened. I finally figured out where to tack and got home.

I really, really need to get that windvane.Posted Image

#2 Monster Mash

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Posted 01 June 2010 - 04:17 AM

Gotta think outside the box. Its perfectly ok to gybe thru 30 degrees without thouching the whisker pole. You'll just end up with it on the same side as the boom. When your traffic is gone gybe the boom back over. Do it all the time.

#3 sailSAK

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Posted 01 June 2010 - 04:32 AM

1. It's the next best thing to a spinnaker if you don't have a spinnaker.
2. Steer carefully.
3. It's a PITA to use if you're singlehanding. (Explanation below)


I had a kickass whisker pole run today too. You are right, it is next best thing to a kite, maybe even better. I honestly saw a 2 knot increase in boat speed after I got mine set today. It does suck a little single handed. This is why I recommended looking at a different end for it in your last thread. I ease the jib until it is slack with the pole extended just beyond the forestay. I then go forward and clip the pole to the sheet, and sheet in the sail. Also, when it is time to jibe provided your sheet is long enough you can do so with the pole just ending up at rest against the forestay and the lazy sheet just hanging in its jaw waiting for you, at your leisure, to go unclip it. This gives you maneuverability and puts everything in a convenient safe place.

#4 briartrtpd..

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Posted 01 June 2010 - 07:17 AM

Ajax
Are you talking windvane as in "monitor" type wind steerer or a vane for your tillerpilot?

I thnk you would find that a proper wind vane isn't really suitable for inshore use and the wind vane on tiller pilots probably isn't worth the money unless you decided to install wind instruments and most of the time with the performance of them down wind you will just go back to steering a compass couse.

briar

#5 WHL

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Posted 01 June 2010 - 08:36 AM

I think Ajax means the trusty Windex

#6 briartrtpd..

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Posted 01 June 2010 - 09:09 AM

I think Ajax means the trusty Windex


Ah light bulb moment!

#7 Ajax

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Posted 01 June 2010 - 10:39 AM

Yeah, Windex. Sorry for the misnomer. MM, I couldn't gybe, because shallow water was on my port side. Jib was on starboard, but I needed it to port. Although your advice couldn't apply in this situation, I hadn't even thought of it, so thanks for pointing it out. Posted Image

#8 MoeAlfa

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Posted 01 June 2010 - 11:28 AM

Guess what else I learned today? Somewhere in the COLREGS, there's an obscure passage that says "A Coronado 25 is the burdened vessel in all traffic situations, whether under engine power, or under sail". Whether motoryacht or sailboat, no one would give me the time of day when it was my turn to be the stand-on vessel. Posted Image

Dude, the guy in the Sea Ray can't hear you yelling, "leeward boat!". :P

#9 Ajax

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Posted 01 June 2010 - 11:40 AM

Neither can the guy in the Benneteau, apparently. Posted Image Every boat that cut me off was either a motoryacht or a 40'+ sailboat. These guys obviously drive by the rule "the give way vessel is the older, smaller or uglier vessel".

Oh, and WTF is up with people motoring their sailboats all over the place? Doesn't anyone use those white, flappy things to power their boats anymore?

#10 savoir

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Posted 01 June 2010 - 12:01 PM

I reckon the other guy was on starbord.

:ph34r:

#11 MoeAlfa

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Posted 01 June 2010 - 12:12 PM

Neither can the guy in the Benneteau, apparently. Posted Image Every boat that cut me off was either a motoryacht or a 40'+ sailboat. These guys obviously drive by the rule "the give way vessel is the older, smaller or uglier vessel".

Oh, and WTF is up with people motoring their sailboats all over the place? Doesn't anyone use those white, flappy things to power their boats anymore?

That's how it is out there. Try heading south.

We coulda used a whisker pole on the way home, yesterday. I apparently half-closed the halyard shackle and the spinnaker dropped into the water. Fortunately, it was still in the sock, 'cause we were sailing very deep at about 5 kts and it would have gone right under the boat.

#12 4knotSB

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Posted 01 June 2010 - 12:12 PM

Welcome to summer in the Chesapeake. There was so much wake going every which way, and so little wind yesterday morning, I gave it up early. We're at that point in the season where, if you can get out during the week, it's a whole different (and more pleasant) situation.

#13 PNW Matt B

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Posted 01 June 2010 - 12:35 PM

Neither can the guy in the Benneteau, apparently. Posted Image Every boat that cut me off was either a motoryacht or a 40'+ sailboat. These guys obviously drive by the rule "the give way vessel is the older, smaller or uglier vessel".

Oh, and WTF is up with people motoring their sailboats all over the place? Doesn't anyone use those white, flappy things to power their boats anymore?

Yesterday, in the middle of our glorious run up to Everett, we found ourselves in the middle of a small fleet. A dozen sailboats, all cruising along under sail, one or two spinnakers flying, it was beautiful. And roaring right through the middle comes a nicely equipped Beneteau with the full enclosure and sail covers on. Now, the full enclosure I can dig. My wife wants one that we can zip apart, and if we get many more merry months of Mayuary, I'll be right there with her. But this was the best sailing say we've had in months.

I hear a click, and over the VHF I hear "give it up and buy a trawler. You're already dead inside."

#14 Ajax

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Posted 01 June 2010 - 01:49 PM

I hear a click, and over the VHF I hear "give it up and buy a trawler. You're already dead inside."


ROTFL....Posted Image That's hilarious. It was a wasted comment. I doubt his radio was on.

#15 Tom Ray

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Posted 01 June 2010 - 03:53 PM

A trawler can carry a small, fun boat, easy for a child or an old man who doesn't want to deal with his big sails any more...

#16 Ajax

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Posted 04 June 2010 - 08:59 PM

Pictures of my whisker pole employment, as per the "pics or it didn't happen" policy. Posted Image

Posted Image

Posted Image

#17 Ajax

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Posted 04 June 2010 - 09:04 PM

I used it again today. Very handy, it kept me moving in the light air, all the way to my dock.

#18 Timo42

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Posted 04 June 2010 - 09:14 PM

Hey Ajax, unless it floats, maybe you should find a better place for the gps, I have found tha anything that sticks up or out will have a line snag on it at the worst possible moment. Lost my hand bearing compass that way and almost lost my chartplotter which is now on an arm that pivots out from the cabin.

It is fun to go wing and wing back to the dock with a cold one in your hand. Posted Image

#19 briartrtpd..

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Posted 04 June 2010 - 09:15 PM

Ajax

is the pole behind the stays?. I wouldn recommend that it would be a quick way to bend the pole

#20 Nomenclature

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Posted 04 June 2010 - 09:27 PM

Oh, and WTF is up with people motoring their sailboats all over the place? Doesn't anyone use those white, flappy things to power their boats anymore?

No, actually sailing your sailboat is so passe.
Today's dockominiums are designed and built with
the installed horsepower to power directly to their
destination without having to endure the inconvienience
of all that tacking and gybeing stuff.
Sailing someplace is for us poor folk who do not have
stringent TV schedules to adhere to.

#21 Ajax

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Posted 04 June 2010 - 09:31 PM

See, that's why I come here.

I too, thought that the pole should go in front of the shrouds but the pole would be pushing pretty hard against them. I must not be doing something right. The pole never pressed against the shrouds when run behind them, but I agree that it seems to be a bad idea for it to be there.

If I used my 110, it'd definitely work well in front. Looks like I've still got some figuring out to do.

#22 briartrtpd..

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Posted 04 June 2010 - 09:40 PM

Ajax
you want to try avoid having the pole touching the stays, You can put some leather or similar around the pole but the prolems will be when somebodies winching the pole back against the stay and don't look. With the pole behind you can't ease the headsail quickly without bending the pole!

#23 PNW Matt B

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Posted 04 June 2010 - 09:48 PM

Ajax, with a larger headsail sometimes the pole needs to be behind the shrouds to get the full benefit. When I use one that way I rig a preventer to keep the pole off the shrouds - just a piece of line secured to the middle of the pole and led aft to a cleat. The rope is a soft nylon so even if the sheet gets completely dropped and the pole snaps forward the rope takes the shock and keeps the pole off the shrouds.

Not perfect but it helps a lot.

#24 Kaptainkriz

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Posted 04 June 2010 - 10:30 PM

Max projection of the sail is AT the shrouds..or in front of them if swept. There is no good reason and only bad can happen poling out behind them. If the top of the sail needs to be closed to power up, use a downhaul on it. :)

Main looks nice...note on batten tension. You have some puckers along the top two that would come out with a little more tension. Looks like you should stuff them in about an inch more.

#25 Ajax

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Posted 05 June 2010 - 12:26 AM

KK, you're right. Only bad can happen if I can't ease the sheet in an emergency because the pole hits the shrouds. I'll rig it in front from now on, and put a downhaul on it. I appreciate everyone pointing this out. I'll work on tightening up those battens.

Matt- I might not get the full benefit but it'll be safer.

I took my parents out for a sail today. The wind was kind of light, and it was hot out, but they had a good time. My dad thinks that the boat is in pretty good shape. He actually does have some sailing experience and he enjoyed helping.

#26 Gatekeeper

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Posted 06 June 2010 - 02:30 AM

Pole behind the shrouds??!! Damn you guys have lots of nerve!!

#27 Monster Mash

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Posted 07 June 2010 - 03:17 AM

Ajax
NTIM but no way is that a 150% jib if you can pole it out from behind the shrouds. What boat was the jib off of? How long is your whisker pole? This could be a case of bigger is not better. Posted Image

#28 Ajax

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Posted 07 June 2010 - 10:49 AM

I don't think it's a 150, but maybe a 130. The sail came with the boat when I bought it, so I don't know if it's specific to the boat, or a second-hand purchase. I haven't measured the pole, but it's supposedly telescopic. I can't seem to get it to collapse or expand though.

#29 Hike, Bitches!

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Posted 07 June 2010 - 04:19 PM

Ajax, that is typical...99% of telescoping objects in saltwater are frozen in place. <_<

I can't see your pics at work, but I second the 'never behind the shrouds'.. If you have the pole that far back, you are sailing too deep (or maybe by the lee) anyway. You trim the whisker pole just like a spin pole..Ease it forward to keep the sail full & sail about 140-165 degs apparent. 95% of the time it is faster to still have flow over the sails instead of them being a barn door. It is safer too, because if it is blowing hard enough you are using them as a barn door, you don't want to be anywhere close to accidentally gybing anyway! :unsure:

A simple downhaul for this rig can be your lazy jib sheet to one of your bow cleats, if it is long enough. Then you don't even have to re-rig it, just pull the line forward and cleat..it keeps the clew from pumping and once you untie it at the bow, it is ready to go again...if it is a little short, you may have to pull the tail back thru the jib lead, but hopefully it is long enough.

#30 MoeAlfa

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Posted 07 June 2010 - 04:33 PM

Ajax, that is typical...99% of telescoping objects in saltwater are frozen in place. <_<

I can't see your pics at work, but I second the 'never behind the shrouds'.. If you have the pole that far back, you are sailing too deep (or maybe by the lee) anyway. You trim the whisker pole just like a spin pole..Ease it forward to keep the sail full & sail about 140-165 degs apparent. 95% of the time it is faster to still have flow over the sails instead of them being a barn door. It is safer too, because if it is blowing hard enough you are using them as a barn door, you don't want to be anywhere close to accidentally gybing anyway! :unsure:

A simple downhaul for this rig can be your lazy jib sheet to one of your bow cleats, if it is long enough. Then you don't even have to re-rig it, just pull the line forward and cleat..it keeps the clew from pumping and once you untie it at the bow, it is ready to go again...if it is a little short, you may have to pull the tail back thru the jib lead, but hopefully it is long enough.

Stupid question: Is the pole in question holding out the clew or are we flying the tack off it, like a chute? Looks like Ajax has the former setup, which is what I though a whisker pole was.

#31 2slow

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Posted 07 June 2010 - 04:48 PM

Has anyone here ever tried attaching their pole to the toe-rail(slotted aluminum kind). Not legal racing, but this is cruising anarchy.

#32 MoeAlfa

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Posted 07 June 2010 - 04:51 PM

Has anyone here ever tried attaching their pole to the toe-rail(slotted aluminum kind). Not legal racing, but this is cruising anarchy.

Is that called a "reaching strut"?
Posted Image

#33 Ajax

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Posted 07 June 2010 - 05:53 PM

My pole is attached to the clew.

#34 MoeAlfa

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Posted 07 June 2010 - 05:55 PM

My pole is attached to the clew.

Yeah, so I don't understand Hike's comment, but then, I've never used a whisker pole.

#35 Monster Mash

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Posted 07 June 2010 - 06:11 PM

I don't think it's a 150, but maybe a 130. The sail came with the boat when I bought it, so I don't know if it's specific to the boat, or a second-hand purchase. I haven't measured the pole, but it's supposedly telescopic. I can't seem to get it to collapse or expand though.



Reason I ask is I have a boat with the same J dimension and for fun tried to pole out a 150% jib with the pole behind the shrouds as illistrated in your picture. Its physically impossible to do. (10' pole). The geometery doesn't work. So you may have a much larger than 150% jib or way to short of a whisker pole. A good starting point for proper length whisker pole for your boat would be about 10'.

#36 floating dutchman

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Posted 07 June 2010 - 09:15 PM


My pole is attached to the clew.

Yeah, so I don't understand Hike's comment, but then, I've never used a whisker pole.

I think Hike it using the leach of the sail as its luff, well that's what I try to do with my 150%ish and pole anyway.
And I'm having the same problems as Ajax that the pole is to far forward when in front if the stays and don't have the balls to put it behind them even though I'm using a beak and the sheet could slide through it if necessary, I need to sort out a down-haul or find a second hand kite and do it properly.

#37 MoeAlfa

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Posted 07 June 2010 - 09:31 PM

I think Hike it using the leach of the sail as its luff, well that's what I try to do with my 150%ish and pole anyway.
And I'm having the same problems as Ajax that the pole is to far forward when in front if the stays and don't have the balls to put it behind them even though I'm using a beak and the sheet could slide through it if necessary, I need to sort out a down-haul or find a second hand kite and do it properly.

This is all way, way, over my glabrous little head.

#38 CrushDigital

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Posted 07 June 2010 - 10:23 PM


Has anyone here ever tried attaching their pole to the toe-rail(slotted aluminum kind). Not legal racing, but this is cruising anarchy.

Is that called a "reaching strut"?
Posted Image


While I'm not sure I understand the set-up in this particular picture, a reaching strut is generally used with a spinnaker pole when you have it forward almost all the way to the forestay and the angle that the guy is pulling the pole back at is very tight. In these situations the guy is creating a lot of compression . but by using a strut you can widen the angle decreasing the loads while also in many cases providing a better lead for the guy.

#39 Jose Carumba

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Posted 07 June 2010 - 10:53 PM

Moe, don't you know? This is a reaching strut:

Attached File  mr_natural1.jpg   72.07K   1 downloads
Credit to R Crumb



#40 floating dutchman

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Posted 07 June 2010 - 10:59 PM


I think Hike it using the leach of the sail as its luff, well that's what I try to do with my 150%ish and pole anyway.
And I'm having the same problems as Ajax that the pole is to far forward when in front if the stays and don't have the balls to put it behind them even though I'm using a beak and the sheet could slide through it if necessary, I need to sort out a down-haul or find a second hand kite and do it properly.

This is all way, way, over my glabrous little head.

No its not complicated, all I mean is that the air is flowing the "wrong" way over the sail hence the back edge of the sail becomes the front. Its getting it to work properly thats hard.

#41 Kaptainkriz

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Posted 07 June 2010 - 11:48 PM

You can do that...and it's fast, especially when you fly a second headsail and the two act as one huge sail. Just need to apply lots of downhaul to keep the leech taught and watch out for the roundup! :o



I think Hike it using the leach of the sail as its luff, well that's what I try to do with my 150%ish and pole anyway.
And I'm having the same problems as Ajax that the pole is to far forward when in front if the stays and don't have the balls to put it behind them even though I'm using a beak and the sheet could slide through it if necessary, I need to sort out a down-haul or find a second hand kite and do it properly.

This is all way, way, over my glabrous little head.

No its not complicated, all I mean is that the air is flowing the "wrong" way over the sail hence the back edge of the sail becomes the front. Its getting it to work properly thats hard.



#42 VALIS

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Posted 08 June 2010 - 12:25 AM

Here's VALIS, running wing and wing with the extending (and collapsing) whisker pole:

Posted Image

We are on a port tack, just barely, and so the wind is flowing over the genoa "backwards".  We might have a foreguy up to a padeye on the foredeck, the genoa sheet is acting as a a guy (it would be a guy if this were the symmetrical spinnaker), and the pole lift ("upf%cker") is just barely visible running from the end of the pole to a block up on the mast.  The pole is definitely forward of the shrouds. It looks like  might have left off the foreguy -- I can't see it -- as this was not my planned configuration and I had rigged it in a hurry.

Note the length of the pole.  If we had been using our regular, much shorter, J-length spin pole, the genoa would be much looser, bagging forward, and not as efficient.  

If you are wondering why we weren't flying the spinnaker, see the blog entry: VALIS Blog.  Look for "mouse nest".

#43 Boomberries

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Posted 08 June 2010 - 12:37 AM

Great photo to illustrate your whisker pole...and funny story about the mouse nest. You guys did not bad at all, despite it all. B)
Good luck in the Pacific Cup, VALIS (& to the other anarchists crewing with you)

#44 MoeAlfa

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Posted 08 June 2010 - 12:56 AM

Here's VALIS, running wing and wing with the extending (and collapsing) whisker pole:

Worth, if not 1000 words, at least a good paragraph. Thanks for straightening me out.

#45 Ajax

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Posted 08 June 2010 - 02:23 AM

Hmmmmmm.....

I am still not employing this thing properly. I've been running DDW or nearly so, which is what I thought you should do. I used the working sheet as a downhaul and to keep the pole from going forward into the shrouds. It never occurred to me to use it on a reach as in VALIS' picture. I was using it as a "barn door" like HB said.

Also, MM was saying that 10' would be a good starting point for my WP. I'm pretty sure it's just around 7' and it's stuck. That my influence how it fits, when trying to install it forward of the shrouds.

I should have sailed today, but I've nearly resurrected my DeLorean and I'm just trying to get the last few things done.

#46 Monster Mash

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Posted 08 June 2010 - 04:18 AM

Santana 22s, same J as Coronado 25 with 125% jib and 10' whisker pole.

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#47 VALIS

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Posted 08 June 2010 - 05:40 AM

Hmmmmmm.....

I am still not employing this thing properly. I've been running DDW or nearly so, which is what I thought you should do. I used the working sheet as a downhaul and to keep the pole from going forward into the shrouds. It never occurred to me to use it on a reach as in VALIS' picture. I was using it as a "barn door" like HB said.

Also, MM was saying that 10' would be a good starting point for my WP. I'm pretty sure it's just around 7' and it's stuck. That my influence how it fits, when trying to install it forward of the shrouds.

In the photo, we are close to, but not quite DDW.  Sometimes we do run dead downwind using the whisker pole, and sometimes we even sail by the lee a little.  Even DDW, the air is probably flowing from leech to luff (backwards), since there is a vacuum behind the mainsail (in this case behind = towards the bow).  You can usually keep the genoa filled better if you head up a little and don't go DDW.

I can't think of a reason to have a pole shorter than your "J" dimension, unless that's the only pole you have.  A whisker pole is usually longer than that.  Whisker poles are usually more fragile than a regular spinnaker pole -- I've broken mine a couple of times now in high winds.  You would think I'd learn...

For DDW cruising, I'm a fan of using twin headsails (I've got photos: Twin Jibs).  This is more stable than the wing and wing  main/genoa arrangement (or a spinnaker), and on VALIS gives a more comfortable ride in quartering seas.  This isn't a configuration you put up unless you plan to use it for a while.  The whiskered jib is much quicker to rig and take down.

#48 Kaptainkriz

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Posted 08 June 2010 - 10:00 AM

cooooool, I was thinking of picking one of those up...I'm jealous. B)

I should have sailed today, but I've nearly resurrected my DeLorean and I'm just trying to get the last few things done.



#49 floating dutchman

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Posted 08 June 2010 - 10:21 AM

cooooool, I was thinking of picking one of those up...I'm jealous. B)


I should have sailed today, but I've nearly resurrected my DeLorean and I'm just trying to get the last few things done.

Son of a sailor has Mrs son of a sailor to play with when not sailing, Ajax has a Delorean to play with when not sailing,
Please guys, I'm an honest guy with an honest wage, could please stop making me jealous? :D

edit: the youth of today, I don't know. (but they sure are having fun!)

#50 Ajax

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Posted 08 June 2010 - 11:08 AM

VALIS- Yeah, it's the only pole I have. It's adjustable but seems frozen. I think I can get it unstuck, I'll see what I can do.

The DeLorean was a pile of scrap when I bought it. It's come a long way, but has a long way to go.Posted Image

#51 Ravac

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Posted 08 June 2010 - 01:16 PM


Here's VALIS, running wing and wing with the extending (and collapsing) whisker pole:

Worth, if not 1000 words, at least a good paragraph. Thanks for straightening me out.


Yep, thanks VALIS for the illustration.

Dumb question: Is one of the key differences between a whisker pole and a spin-pole the way they're positioned on the boat? What I mean is, generally, whisker poles are rigged rather perpendicular to the boat whereas spin-poles are rigged tighter to the center-line of the deck?

Another really stupid question: Are spinnakers attached at the luff? Or are they 'only' attached to the boat by the head, tack, and clew?

#52 Hike, Bitches!

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Posted 08 June 2010 - 01:31 PM

Ajax...you need to get the salt out of the pole..it has welded the two pieces together. Throw it in the front yard the next time you turn on the sprinkler to water the lawn. Spray some WD-40 or whatever to try and loosen it up. Get a buddy and two pairs of those rubber dipped Atlas #300 gloves all the multi-hull sailors use and twist it until it breaks free. It should be the same length as the distance from the base of the mast to the headstay fitting at the bow (roughly your "J" dimension). - BTW - APS has the Atlas gloves, but I buy them by the dozen at palmflex.com for about $3.50/pair. Good stuff, and they last about one regatta. Then I toss them on the cruising boat where they last the rest of the summer. I was getting about 2 regattas out of those $30 Harken/Ronstan/Gill etc. gloves, so I gave up on them.

Another thought is to see if the marina would let you soak it in the swimming pool (if they have one) for a few hours..that might help loosen up the galvanic corrosion from the salt..prior to soaking it with caustic petroleum products of course. :rolleyes:

Thanks for the pic Valis..it helps explain a lot. I tend to put the wind on the windex's tab when poled out. If the leech of the jib curls, I ease it forward just a bit or come down 5 degrees. I have forward lower shrouds as well, so I can't really bring mine back farther than 80 degrees or so...I'd never bring it behind one of the shrouds.

Looking at Valis' pic, I'd take the lazy jib sheet which is just hanging and drag it forward to a cleat/padeye as a quick & dirty downhaul..does the same thing as a vang on the main downwind to control the leech of the jib, which is now the leading edge.

If you decide to get crazy and do double headsails, I always pole out the smaller sail to windward. The smaller sail can be set flatter and works to funnel wind into the larger sail under the main as KrazyKriz described. It can be a great tool for stabilizing the boat in a blow...but as also mentioned, takes a little time to rig. You use the large jib underneath as your guide..if it hangs behind the main, you are sailing too deep...you come up a little to get the jib drawing and get some air in it and get it full & off you go.

#53 Bob Perry

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Posted 08 June 2010 - 01:36 PM

Rayvac:
spin poles are attached at the mast to a track that allows them to go up and down and wind conditions dictate.
Whisker poles are generally attached at the mast to a fixed position.
Spin poles are generally heavier than whisker poles due to compressive loads when the pole is forward. Whisker poles are seldom carried forward because you can't close reach with a poles out genny so they see little compression.
Spins are not attached at the luff.

#54 Ravac

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Posted 08 June 2010 - 02:34 PM

Thanks Bob.

#55 Ajax

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Posted 08 June 2010 - 02:37 PM

Also, I haven't seen any telescoping/adjustable spin poles. They seem to be a solid, single piece.

Looks to be gooooooood wind today. The DeLorean is just gonna have to wait. Hell, I drove it today so it's not that bad.

#56 Hike, Bitches!

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Posted 08 June 2010 - 02:46 PM

Ajax, see Mr. Perry's post above..there is too much compression from the loads a spinnaker places on the pole for a telescoping pole with a twist style lock to last for very long. I think the pole would more likely bend like a pretzel..

I carry one of each.

#57 VALIS

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Posted 08 June 2010 - 03:29 PM

On VALIS, the whisker pole uses the same attachment hardware as the spin pole: track on the mast, uphaul, and foreguy when I remember to rig it.  You could use the genoa's lazy sheet as a foreguy, but it probably isn't necessary.  The foreguy is good for keeping the pole from hitting the shrouds though.  The topping lift may not be needed either -- it depends on the wind, sail, angle, and how much you care.  

Many decades ago I sailed a  14-ft dinghy and the whisker pole was basically a broomstick hooked into a fixed eye on the mast, and had a pin that poled into the jib clew grommet (I recall this type of pole being discussed recently).  Spinnakers hadn't been invented yet. (ok, they had, but I didn't have one.)

The spin pole is usually "J" length, per racing rules.  The whisker pole is usually longer.  The extendable whisker poles can use a twist-lock (pretty weak), a spring-pin lock, or in my case a line-controlled extender.  Here's how the line-control pole works:

 Posted Image

(see Forespar for more details)

#58 Hike, Bitches!

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Posted 08 June 2010 - 05:25 PM

I rig mine like VALIS - at the mast anyway. I remember when I was little, there was a fixed eye for a whisker pole. The P.O. removed it and installed a track with an adjustable bail for the spin pole and that has worked just fine for the whisker pole too. Once you have the hardware for the spin, it is usually easy to adapt for whisker pole use, but not the other way around...some exceptions are J/24 class rules..If I recall, they had a range of height on the mast where you could put the spin pole bails, but you couldn't use a track..so most had two bails riveted in place about 30" apart and I remember using the top one 98% of the time.

#59 scupper

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Posted 08 June 2010 - 06:15 PM

I was thinking of building one onto my mast, was going to attach a 10 foot t track to the front of mast and attaching the pole to a car that'll slide on the t track and a line to pull it up and down. I'm curious though do you need some sort of down haul to keep the far end of the pole down or does it just stay there held by the jib sheet. of course I'll need a topping lift, but thats no problem.
So far now when I run wing and wing I tie a line to the boom and run it to a block mid ship on the bulwark back to the unused sheet winch and lock it down tight so all I have to worry about is the jib flopping around from side to side, sometimes in light winds I just set the wind vane and stand out near the shrouds and just hold the jib sheet out, it works but I'd rather have the work done by a
running pole.

for that seized pole have you tried heating it with a torch, pipe gets bigger when you heat it so if you heat the outside sleeve it should pop apart from all the corrosion

and for those of you with grievances about boat right of way, maybe what you need is a nice steel boat, I bet those wimpy little beneteau wouldn't be so pushy then.

#60 Ajax

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Posted 09 June 2010 - 01:58 AM

Scupper,

The wierd thing is, the inner pole section twists freely inside the outter pole section. I thought it might be a worm screw, but it doesn't unscrew and it doesn't just pull out either. Posted Image

I'll figure it out. Or break it. Either one is a solution. Posted Image

#61 Ishmael

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Posted 09 June 2010 - 02:19 AM

Scupper,

The wierd thing is, the inner pole section twists freely inside the outter pole section. I thought it might be a worm screw, but it doesn't unscrew and it doesn't just pull out either. Posted Image

I'll figure it out. Or break it. Either one is a solution. Posted Image



The usual way to fix those is to saturate the joint with fresh water for a day or so, then take the inner pole in your left hand, the outer in your right, and while pulling apart, turn the inner clockwise and the outer counterclockwise. Serious practitioners wear a loincloth and a recently killed chicken, around the loins and the neck respectively.

When that doesn't work, you use the pole as a rotisserie for the chicken over the BBQ and find one that does work.

#62 Hike, Bitches!

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Posted 09 June 2010 - 02:30 PM

Ajax, the pole may be bent already..lay it out on the garage floor (or other nice flat smooth surface) One of awning poles is like that but they are expensive too!

#63 Boomberries

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Posted 09 June 2010 - 03:31 PM


Scupper,
The wierd thing is, the inner pole section twists freely inside the outter pole section. I thought it might be a worm screw, but it doesn't unscrew and it doesn't just pull out either. Posted Image
I'll figure it out. Or break it. Either one is a solution. Posted Image


The usual way to fix those is to saturate the joint with fresh water for a day or so, then take the inner pole in your left hand, the outer in your right, and while pulling apart, turn the inner clockwise and the outer counterclockwise. Serious practitioners wear a loincloth and a recently killed chicken, around the loins and the neck respectively.

When that doesn't work, you use the pole as a rotisserie for the chicken over the BBQ and find one that does work.

I think we should start a thread of the funniest replies...
This one tickled the funny bone this morning.

#64 Tom Ray

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Posted 09 June 2010 - 06:47 PM

At least a live chicken worn about the loins isn't called for...

#65 Ishmael

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Posted 10 June 2010 - 04:11 AM

At least a live chicken worn about the loins isn't called for...


Those fuckers bite.

#66 Ajax

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Posted 10 June 2010 - 11:47 AM

Ok, during last night's race I got to see one of the boats in the non-spin division flying their whisker pole. Now that I've seen it in action, live, I'm ready to try again.

#67 Damp Freddie

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Posted 01 July 2010 - 08:27 PM

I was just talking to the helm on the Bavaria Match 38 I sail on about getting a whisker pole for cruising and short handed racing where there is a white sails class.

Telescopic sounds good: I would opt for simplicity and stow it along the boom, extending and contracting as it comes out by hand.

Has anyone tried using the pole as an outrigger to lee for reaching?

I have owned a couple of tasars which have a long whisker pole, and we could "legally" attach the pole to the windward sheet at the block and outrig the clew of the jib to get a better sheeting for reaching.

I tried this on a yacht once , attaching a spin pole to the windward rail with a simple loop of line and then over to the clew: the genoa was just too big for this to work as it turned out but had it been less than 120% it could have worked.

Oh for a 33 foot tasar: then the wife could do foredeck!

PS Rajan: the spinnaker luff leads to the tack and the head. It changes side on a normal spinnaker pole while remaining fixed on a bowsprit ( although it can rotate for outside gybes)

#68 Jose Carumba

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Posted 01 July 2010 - 10:59 PM

Snip...Has anyone tried using the pole as an outrigger to lee for reaching?


I have done something similar by using the spinnaker pole as a whisker pole with the inboard end raised as necessary and the outboard end attached to the clew. You use the pole up/down hauls to adjust the height of the clew and thus the twist in the sail. It looks a bit odd but works pretty well on broad to beam reaches but once the clew wants to be aft of the mast not so good, unless you have swept back spreaders I guess. A telescoping whisher pole with some sort of up/downhaul (not sure how you'd do it) could work also.

#69 SemiSalt

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Posted 02 July 2010 - 04:57 PM

Has anyone tried using the pole as an outrigger to lee for reaching?


Yes. Won some (non-spin) races that way too.

I think you need a telescoping pole so you can shorten it. You get a lot more power out of the jib than you would sheeting it back to the rail. Keep your eye out that you don't over trim so the pole hits the stays. Not good, as noted above.

To my mind, the differences between a spinnaker pole and a whisker pole are that the former is fixed length while the latter is telescoping and quite a bit longer. Get a line drive pole. I sailed some on a C&C 34 with a click-stop pole and it was a royal pain. You want to be able to adjust the pole length easily just like any other sail trim.

A little story. On a smaller boat, I cobbled up a whisker pole using a closet pole inside some PVC pipe, with jaws against the mast. It worked pretty well, and I was tickled to get something workable for about $20. However, when the inner pole was well extended, the PVC was too flexible, and would bend in a wide arc. I called it my Robin Hood whisker pole because it looked like a long bow. The interesting thing is that we could see that the greatest stress came from waves, not from the wind. If the boat rocked, the pole would go sproing. I was a little afraid that the closet pole, being very stiff, was very brittle and would someday shatter into dangerous splinters, so after about a year I invested $500 in the real thing.

#70 Damp Freddie

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Posted 02 July 2010 - 09:12 PM

I never have seen a telescopic, but it seems completely logical : you can use it as you say from the MAST as a leeward outrigger and then with various jibs or rolled in genoa positions.

It really makes a difference to those of you who are a bit sceptical and considering doing some white sails races or deliveries sans spinnaker.

It usually takes a few seconds before the knots start to rise using a pole on a goose winged jib/genoa: on the Tasar it was pretty immediate and the boat settled down quickly to be better balanced; one tippy boat for the unwary!

( the tasar is a 14 foot racing production dinghy developed from the NS14 and super nova by Frank Bethwaite and Ian Bruce : 45 kilo hull, planes up wind: bit of a dog in light winds sailing on a run despite whisker pole though)





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