Jump to content


Laser


  • Please log in to reply
173 replies to this topic

#101 Jesse Falsone

Jesse Falsone

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 617 posts

Posted 20 August 2010 - 12:55 PM

Personally, I don't care what starting system the Lasers use. I did want to correct misconceptions about the gate start and condone their use for big fleets. I don't care to correct Mr. Gouvernail's inane contentions regarding the 505 class since I can't believe they are serious.

Now, if you'll excuse me, I have a gate start Portsmouth race to attend.

#102 two cold dogs

two cold dogs

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 598 posts

Posted 20 August 2010 - 03:42 PM

Personally, I don't care what starting system the Lasers use. I did want to correct misconceptions about the gate start and condone their use for big fleets. I don't care to correct Mr. Gouvernail's inane contentions regarding the 505 class since I can't believe they are serious.

Now, if you'll excuse me, I have a gate start Portsmouth race to attend.



I'm with you, the first gate start I ever did was the Laser Midwinters in 1977, worked just fine then, works just fine now.

#103 Hobie Dog

Hobie Dog

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,791 posts
  • Location:Chesapeake Bay

Posted 20 August 2010 - 05:44 PM

Lasers are the most boring piece of floating debris I can think of.

Other dinosaur classes have come and gone and it's time the Laser did the same.

I have no issue saying that the Laser WAS a the right boat at the right time when it was launched, and has contrubuted enormously to the sailing community, but now it's time to move on and retire the old girl has long passed.

Fun is what Sailing is about, so time for a new FUN class to taker over.


Fuck off Newbie and not joking like I usually am. How about we put your "talented" sailing ass in a Laser in 20 knots as see how bored you are then. I guess you think they are boring because you lack the sailing skill to not be swimming the entire time.

And Gouv is right, you give us a "better" boat with an actual OD class and I'll take hull 10,001...

#104 Laser1

Laser1

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 312 posts

Posted 22 August 2010 - 06:53 PM

Huh.....what's all the fuss about ? ;)

#105 sailingorder

sailingorder

    Newbie

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 20 posts
  • Location:dublin, ireland
  • Interests:SAILING

Posted 23 August 2010 - 01:14 PM




would you like more reasons?

#106 dogwatch

dogwatch

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 10,644 posts
  • Location:South Coast, UK
  • Interests:Racing in all forms.

Posted 24 August 2010 - 08:11 AM

So with all the ra-ra chest-beating about the Laser from Americans here, how come so few are coming to the Laser Worlds from the USA? Just 4 seniors. Don't tell me it's a long way - there's more Kiwis and that's from the opposite side of the world and from a country a population of 4M. More Australians. There are more Japanese FFS. http://events.laseri...try/list/100z49

And as for the Juniors, the number coming from the USA is zero, zilch, nada. http://events.laseri...try/list/100z50

#107 Hobie Dog

Hobie Dog

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,791 posts
  • Location:Chesapeake Bay

Posted 24 August 2010 - 07:00 PM

So with all the ra-ra chest-beating about the Laser from Americans here, how come so few are coming to the Laser Worlds from the USA? Just 4 seniors. Don't tell me it's a long way - there's more Kiwis and that's from the opposite side of the world and from a country a population of 4M. More Australians. There are more Japanese FFS. http://events.laseri...try/list/100z49

And as for the Juniors, the number coming from the USA is zero, zilch, nada. http://events.laseri...try/list/100z50


I have no idea but when you are talking Worlds for a class as big as the Laser you are looking at the elite/professional sailors so maybe one of them could comment. As for the other 99% of us that race Laser's at the club and regional level going to Worlds is not something we generally would consider.

#108 Eric_R.

Eric_R.

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 412 posts
  • Location:New Jersey

Posted 24 August 2010 - 09:47 PM

So with all the ra-ra chest-beating about the Laser from Americans here, how come so few are coming to the Laser Worlds from the USA? Just 4 seniors. Don't tell me it's a long way - there's more Kiwis and that's from the opposite side of the world and from a country a population of 4M. More Australians. There are more Japanese FFS. http://events.laseri...try/list/100z49

And as for the Juniors, the number coming from the USA is zero, zilch, nada. http://events.laseri...try/list/100z50


We are given berths based on North America, not USA and Canada. So we fulfilled the quota on that. Take a look at the waiting list for people wanting berths too it's not like there weren't people wanting to go.

Juniors who knows.

#109 dogwatch

dogwatch

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 10,644 posts
  • Location:South Coast, UK
  • Interests:Racing in all forms.

Posted 26 August 2010 - 06:08 AM

Thanks - it hadn't occurred to me that there would be a waiting list of US senior sailors with only 4 accepted entries but that is indeed the case.

There are more Canadian than US seniors. What's the history of the combined "North American" quota. It didn't seem to apply a few years ago?

#110 USA190520

USA190520

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,857 posts
  • Location:mostly here but not all there

Posted 26 August 2010 - 06:39 AM

I quite like that the Laser is a beast to sail - it adds to the challenge, so when you win a race, you know you've earnt it. But then when you learn how to sail it well, it's a lot tamer anyway. It loses a lot of its ugliness.

Each to their own.


No, no, no....
In a laser, you only know you've won a race because you're legs hurt more than everyone else's.
On the other hand, sailing on the trapeze and winning - that's when you know you've earnt it. If you get a decent harness you can even feel your balls afterwards. (yes, I learnt this the hard way, it's almost bad enough to envy the female anatomy.... Highly recommend the Zhik T1 BTW.)

'Laser' won't even allow you to attach enough purchase to anything for the sake of "one design" - so it takes a gorilla just to crank on the kicker you want... I prefer boats that take more skill and less "gorilla".


15:1 isnt enough purchase for you to add some kicker to a 76sqft sail ???? :blink:

yeah, um, check again, I think you may have more female anatomy than ya think....

#111 mezaire

mezaire

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 833 posts
  • Location:Tasmania

Posted 26 August 2010 - 09:24 AM

Just for another view;

I have nothing against the Laser for what they offer, which is a fast boat with big fleet racing.

What bothers me about the Laser is that the powers that be have never had the foresight to stop building the hulls, rigs and sails out of second rate material and from 40yo techniques. Name me another class that is still built as badly as a Laser??

All this was ok then they had 4:1 vangs etc. but now with 16:1 I know of top guys buying 6-8 sails and 3-4 top sections a year. Add to that you need a new hull every 2-3 years to stay fast as they get all soft and wobbly.

I know the arguement is that if you introduce a stiffer hull, stronger mast, better sail then it means there is a heap of guys with boats that cannot sail, but why not make an A and B fleet for a while?? Eventually it will become so much cheaper for the sailor as his gear will last more than a regatta. Guys will buy the new rig first to put on their old hull or vice a versa and then buy the rest when they can afford it.

I don't see the point of strict OD if your sail is too stretched to be competitive after one regatta???

Anyway, I'm sure my view will get shot down and the Laser will continue on its merry way, just think they are missing the point now.

Mez

#112 redstar

redstar

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 120 posts
  • Location:Itinerant

Posted 26 August 2010 - 01:12 PM

All this was ok then they had 4:1 vangs etc. but now with 16:1 I know of top guys buying 6-8 sails and 3-4 top sections a year. Add to that you need a new hull every 2-3 years to stay fast as they get all soft and wobbly.


You don't think you're exaggerating just a bit?

There are only two groups of people buying that many sails...

1. Olympic wannabes sailing fulltime (ie on water over 20 hours per week), with rich parents, or good enough to get funded. They would be getting 150 hours out of each sail, which is not a bad return. I bet they would still be spending a lot less on sails than those in the other olympic classes, and the cost of the sails is a tiny part of their campaign costs.
2. Complete idiots with too much money and not enough brains.

The hulls dont go soft after 2-3 years either, unless they are doing a ridiculous amount of work. My current hull is 2 1/2 years old, has done quite a bit of sailing, and I could easily sell it tomorrow for at least 80% of what I paid for it. Put it next to a brand new hull and you wouldn't be able to tell me which was which - not by comparing the stiffness anyway. Not much to complain about there.

#113 Hobie Dog

Hobie Dog

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,791 posts
  • Location:Chesapeake Bay

Posted 26 August 2010 - 02:47 PM

Just for another view;

I have nothing against the Laser for what they offer, which is a fast boat with big fleet racing.

What bothers me about the Laser is that the powers that be have never had the foresight to stop building the hulls, rigs and sails out of second rate material and from 40yo techniques. Name me another class that is still built as badly as a Laser??

All this was ok then they had 4:1 vangs etc. but now with 16:1 I know of top guys buying 6-8 sails and 3-4 top sections a year. Add to that you need a new hull every 2-3 years to stay fast as they get all soft and wobbly.

I know the arguement is that if you introduce a stiffer hull, stronger mast, better sail then it means there is a heap of guys with boats that cannot sail, but why not make an A and B fleet for a while?? Eventually it will become so much cheaper for the sailor as his gear will last more than a regatta. Guys will buy the new rig first to put on their old hull or vice a versa and then buy the rest when they can afford it.

I don't see the point of strict OD if your sail is too stretched to be competitive after one regatta???

Anyway, I'm sure my view will get shot down and the Laser will continue on its merry way, just think they are missing the point now.

Mez


I agree and disagree with you.

Hull: You absolutely DO NOT need a new hull every 2 to 3 years even if you are sailing 5 days a week. For 99% of the fleet that sails at the club and regional level a 10 year old hull is just as fast as a new hull provided the foils are in good shape and if they are not they are easy to fair and get back looking good. Sure at some point, depending on how the boat was taken care of, that 15-20+ plus year old hull is going to get soft and not be as fast as a new boat but that is true of any dinghy, beach cat or sport boat.

Maybe I will buy that the top sailors at the national level are getting new hulls every 2 years but it is more mental than anything else or they have a sponsor that is buying them boats so why not at that point.

Sure with today's technology you could build a Laser that is lighter and stronger but at the cost of putting all the current boats into the B fleet; just not a good idea for the class.

Top Section: Again are saying the top sailors are breaking 3 or 4 a year??? That seems high to me? Again I don't have much information on that at the national level but I can tell you at the club and regional level we are not seeing that. Also not sure what you are suggesting as an upgrade? If you stay with Aluminum and make it stronger you are going to change the bend characteristics and change the performance of the boat, probably making it slower as you need the bend to de-power in breeze. Only option I see is go with carbon while keeping the same bend characteristics as the current top section. The carbon would indeed be more durable but also lighter so you would have a little faster boat. I could go either way on this as older boats could be upgraded easily and over time we would have a better boat but again I do not see the class going for this...

Sail: 6-8 sails per year; wow that is a lot but I guess I could see it for the top sailors. Even at our local Laser Masters Championship events on the Chesapeake there are sailors that show up with a new sail every time. So I totally agree with you that something has to be done with the sail. Way too expensive and does not last nearly long enough. It really is completely WRONG and the worst thing about the Laser. How can both Intensity and APS offer a sail with better sail cloth, battens, bag and clew strap for $180? Versus the class sail at close to $600 with no battens, bag and clew strap? It is crazy!!! Somebody is making a ton of cash on this cash cow!!! How can I get in on this action?

Like most OD classes allow open development, specify sail material requirements and measure in at top events.

#114 mezaire

mezaire

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 833 posts
  • Location:Tasmania

Posted 26 August 2010 - 03:18 PM

OK, perhaps what I am seeing is the upper edge of the spectrum as it is a heavy air/big swell venue but those stats are not far off.

The other thing worth noting that is apart from sails and fittings the rest of a Laser is made locally or regionally if you like, the hulls here in Oz are not exactly the same as the hulls in the US or UK. In fact I know someone wanting to ship 4 Lasers to the Middle East as apparently they think Oz hulls are built better than European hulls. This could also mean (and I have been told as much) that some older hulls were built better too.

As for putting a carbon or glass rig in the boat, the cost of an ally top and bottom section (full rig) here in Oz is something like $500AUS, it would not be that hard to mass produce a carbon/glass composite rig that was stronger, ligher and with similar bend attributes for not alot more coin.

Let's face it, you could make a FAR better sail and a carbon mast for maybe 30% more than the current setup but it would last 200% longer..

Mez

#115 USA190520

USA190520

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,857 posts
  • Location:mostly here but not all there

Posted 26 August 2010 - 03:44 PM

honestly, you could have a fully battened square top sail made outta pentex for about the same cost as the "laser" sail... that is, of course, before "laser" puts thier vaseline tax on it.

the Rooster 8.1 with carbon extention is less than a full rig laser sail...


bottom line, roll your sail, budget your sail useage, take care of your boat and hike harder....

#116 Vito Scotti

Vito Scotti

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 34 posts
  • Location:Georgia - too far from the Gulf

Posted 26 August 2010 - 06:14 PM

Just for another view;

I have nothing against the Laser for what they offer, which is a fast boat with big fleet racing.

What bothers me about the Laser is that the powers that be have never had the foresight to stop building the hulls, rigs and sails out of second rate material and from 40yo techniques. Name me another class that is still built as badly as a Laser??

All this was ok then they had 4:1 vangs etc. but now with 16:1 I know of top guys buying 6-8 sails and 3-4 top sections a year. Add to that you need a new hull every 2-3 years to stay fast as they get all soft and wobbly.

I know the arguement is that if you introduce a stiffer hull, stronger mast, better sail then it means there is a heap of guys with boats that cannot sail, but why not make an A and B fleet for a while?? Eventually it will become so much cheaper for the sailor as his gear will last more than a regatta. Guys will buy the new rig first to put on their old hull or vice a versa and then buy the rest when they can afford it.

I don't see the point of strict OD if your sail is too stretched to be competitive after one regatta???

Anyway, I'm sure my view will get shot down and the Laser will continue on its merry way, just think they are missing the point now.

Mez


I agree, Mez.

The powers that be say introducing a new sail will make all the old sails non-competitive. But, using the old sail for 5 races makes it non-competitive. Either way you are replacing a sail...

#117 Bowfoil

Bowfoil

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 89 posts
  • Location:The Sea
  • Interests:Sailing

Posted 29 August 2010 - 10:14 PM

how did such a pig of a boat become the most popular dingy on the planet?
Sailed one today for the first time in nearly 20 years (1992 Asia pacific championship last regatta). I vaugly remember back then saying to myself never sail this boat again. I have since sailed all types of dinghies and there are so many better options.
I was out in 15-18 full rig not massively overpowered (110kg) but certainly not enjoying myself. The reaches are ok but dead down wind and it turns into the pig again.
Apart from big fleets what is the attraction to this boat?
What keep the Laser fleet growing? Don't people realise there are better boats out there to sail and enjoy their sailing.


Lasers attract people because the are one of the simplest forms of sailing, they are not massively expensive, the are easy to rig, sail, store and maintain, but they are only the basic attractions to all people. At the higher end of the performance spectrum, (where i would see myself, being a the upper end of the irish laser circuit), it all boils down to the fact that there is two elements, fitness, and skill. There is none of this rig tuning and which builder makes the stiffer hull and which sails are best. The bottom line is, that if you have the skill, then its no pig, but of course, if you haven't sailed one in nearly 20 years, then your going to be very rusty, and not good enough to make it feel fast, easy and natural to sail.



#118 Hobie Dog

Hobie Dog

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,791 posts
  • Location:Chesapeake Bay

Posted 30 August 2010 - 07:51 PM

Lasers attract people because the are one of the simplest forms of sailing, they are not massively expensive, the are easy to rig, sail, store and maintain, but they are only the basic attractions to all people. At the higher end of the performance spectrum, (where i would see myself, being a the upper end of the irish laser circuit), it all boils down to the fact that there is two elements, fitness, and skill. There is none of this rig tuning and which builder makes the stiffer hull and which sails are best. The bottom line is, that if you have the skill, then its no pig, but of course, if you haven't sailed one in nearly 20 years, then your going to be very rusty, and not good enough to make it feel fast, easy and natural to sail.


Wait a minute you say it takes fitness and skill to sail a Laser well? Almost sounds like you are describing a sport? So you are saying you have to be an athlete to race a Laser; let me tell you some people are not going to like that. You mean I actually have to train to be fast??? :lol:

Obviously joking, well said, great post...

#119 Bowfoil

Bowfoil

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 89 posts
  • Location:The Sea
  • Interests:Sailing

Posted 30 August 2010 - 08:59 PM


Lasers attract people because the are one of the simplest forms of sailing, they are not massively expensive, the are easy to rig, sail, store and maintain, but they are only the basic attractions to all people. At the higher end of the performance spectrum, (where i would see myself, being a the upper end of the irish laser circuit), it all boils down to the fact that there is two elements, fitness, and skill. There is none of this rig tuning and which builder makes the stiffer hull and which sails are best. The bottom line is, that if you have the skill, then its no pig, but of course, if you haven't sailed one in nearly 20 years, then your going to be very rusty, and not good enough to make it feel fast, easy and natural to sail.


Wait a minute you say it takes fitness and skill to sail a Laser well? Almost sounds like you are describing a sport? So you are saying you have to be an athlete to race a Laser; let me tell you some people are not going to like that. You mean I actually have to train to be fast??? :lol:

Obviously joking, well said, great post...




I would like to see a fit person who is bad at sailing or a good sailor who really unfit to come and beat even the people who are going to come last at this years worlds!
I bet you just a fat old man who wished he was fit enough or skilled enough to sail a laser!

#120 Icedtea

Icedtea

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,148 posts
  • Location:Ireland

Posted 30 August 2010 - 09:33 PM

Willsailor180932 I know you haven't been here long, but accusing someone of being too fat and/or unfit to sail a laser might not be a good idea on these forums....just a piece of friendly advice take it or leave it :)

#121 scottmax

scottmax

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,151 posts
  • Location:North Queensland Gods Country

Posted 31 August 2010 - 06:07 AM



Lasers attract people because the are one of the simplest forms of sailing, they are not massively expensive, the are easy to rig, sail, store and maintain, but they are only the basic attractions to all people. At the higher end of the performance spectrum, (where i would see myself, being a the upper end of the irish laser circuit), it all boils down to the fact that there is two elements, fitness, and skill. There is none of this rig tuning and which builder makes the stiffer hull and which sails are best. The bottom line is, that if you have the skill, then its no pig, but of course, if you haven't sailed one in nearly 20 years, then your going to be very rusty, and not good enough to make it feel fast, easy and natural to sail.


Wait a minute you say it takes fitness and skill to sail a Laser well? Almost sounds like you are describing a sport? So you are saying you have to be an athlete to race a Laser; let me tell you some people are not going to like that. You mean I actually have to train to be fast??? :lol:

Obviously joking, well said, great post...




I would like to see a fit person who is bad at sailing or a good sailor who really unfit to come and beat even the people who are going to come last at this years worlds!
I bet you just a fat old man who wished he was fit enough or skilled enough to sail a laser!


I do have the skill but not the motivation to be bothered with a crappy little boat like a laser. Be more motivated to sail something a bit more exciting like a IC or maybe a Musto skiff. I currently sail a contender and these to take as much skill as the laser to sail.
My point on starting this thread was there a shit load better options out there to sail. Even the contender can get 150+ boats at its worlds when held in Europe.
Want to talk about easy to rig. Less than 5 min to step the mast and hoist 1 sail on the contender. Not to much problem. I will admit not as quick as the laser but not far off.
Credit to all who persist with the torture box and "enjoy" it. It just not me.
You do not need big fleets to be a better sailor you just need 1 boat faster than you.

#122 Laser1

Laser1

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 312 posts

Posted 31 August 2010 - 10:02 AM

Hmmmmm......

Attached Files



#123 Fishingmickey

Fishingmickey

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,641 posts
  • Location:New Braunfels, Texas

Posted 31 August 2010 - 05:14 PM

Here is my choice.....FM

Attached Files



#124 Crooked Beat

Crooked Beat

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 203 posts

Posted 31 August 2010 - 05:21 PM

Get Bic to make an Adult version of their Bic Open kids boat. Make it less than 100 pounds. I am bored with the 40 year old laser design. Don't race much, I just want to go fast. Moth is interesting, Contender is interesting, but I just want a simple unstayed no trap boat. Just give me a modern laser and fix the mast step problem.

#125 RobbieB

RobbieB

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,482 posts
  • Location:Charleston, SC

Posted 31 August 2010 - 06:18 PM

Here is my choice.....FM


There's something about well maintained teak and mahogany that makes a boat sexy.

#126 rastus

rastus

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,175 posts
  • Location:On the water near a small town in NZ

Posted 31 August 2010 - 07:03 PM

You do not need big fleets to be a better sailor you just need 1 boat faster than you.

good point

#127 Hobie Dog

Hobie Dog

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,791 posts
  • Location:Chesapeake Bay

Posted 31 August 2010 - 08:31 PM

Here is my choice.....FM


She does look sweet, nice looking ride you have there... Got to give it to you on that!

#128 Vito Scotti

Vito Scotti

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 34 posts
  • Location:Georgia - too far from the Gulf

Posted 31 August 2010 - 08:39 PM


Here is my choice.....FM


There's something about well maintained teak and mahogany that makes a boat sexy.


+1

#129 Hobie Dog

Hobie Dog

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,791 posts
  • Location:Chesapeake Bay

Posted 31 August 2010 - 08:50 PM



Lasers attract people because the are one of the simplest forms of sailing, they are not massively expensive, the are easy to rig, sail, store and maintain, but they are only the basic attractions to all people. At the higher end of the performance spectrum, (where i would see myself, being a the upper end of the irish laser circuit), it all boils down to the fact that there is two elements, fitness, and skill. There is none of this rig tuning and which builder makes the stiffer hull and which sails are best. The bottom line is, that if you have the skill, then its no pig, but of course, if you haven't sailed one in nearly 20 years, then your going to be very rusty, and not good enough to make it feel fast, easy and natural to sail.


Wait a minute you say it takes fitness and skill to sail a Laser well? Almost sounds like you are describing a sport? So you are saying you have to be an athlete to race a Laser; let me tell you some people are not going to like that. You mean I actually have to train to be fast??? :lol:

Obviously joking, well said, great post...




I would like to see a fit person who is bad at sailing or a good sailor who really unfit to come and beat even the people who are going to come last at this years worlds!
I bet you just a fat old man who wished he was fit enough or skilled enough to sail a laser!


Wait I was agreeing with you and are you calling me??? Wow this place is tough I guess I need to defend myself! And you lost this bet so what do I win? :lol:

Old: Well not really. But have to admit I do not get carded much anymore... :lol:
Fat: Ah not at all...
Skilled: Ummm I have been known to make some silly mistakes on the race course but I can hold my own.
Fit: Well yes; not a Laser pic but I guess on the helm of a Farr 395 in a Bermuda race will have to do for now...

Attached Files



#130 Bowfoil

Bowfoil

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 89 posts
  • Location:The Sea
  • Interests:Sailing

Posted 31 August 2010 - 09:14 PM




Lasers attract people because the are one of the simplest forms of sailing, they are not massively expensive, the are easy to rig, sail, store and maintain, but they are only the basic attractions to all people. At the higher end of the performance spectrum, (where i would see myself, being a the upper end of the irish laser circuit), it all boils down to the fact that there is two elements, fitness, and skill. There is none of this rig tuning and which builder makes the stiffer hull and which sails are best. The bottom line is, that if you have the skill, then its no pig, but of course, if you haven't sailed one in nearly 20 years, then your going to be very rusty, and not good enough to make it feel fast, easy and natural to sail.


Wait a minute you say it takes fitness and skill to sail a Laser well? Almost sounds like you are describing a sport? So you are saying you have to be an athlete to race a Laser; let me tell you some people are not going to like that. You mean I actually have to train to be fast??? :lol:

Obviously joking, well said, great post...




I would like to see a fit person who is bad at sailing or a good sailor who really unfit to come and beat even the people who are going to come last at this years worlds!
I bet you just a fat old man who wished he was fit enough or skilled enough to sail a laser!


Wait I was agreeing with you and are you calling me??? Wow this place is tough I guess I need to defend myself! And you lost this bet so what do I win? :lol:

Old: Well not really. But have to admit I do not get carded much anymore... :lol:
Fat: Ah not at all...
Skilled: Ummm I have been known to make some silly mistakes on the race course but I can hold my own.
Fit: Well yes; not a Laser pic but I guess on the helm of a Farr 395 in a Bermuda race will have to do for now...




Agreeing with me?



#131 Laser1

Laser1

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 312 posts

Posted 31 August 2010 - 09:28 PM

Will,

Are you Youth or Master....(Grand Master ?? :P )

Hike on.....

#132 Poida

Poida

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 305 posts

Posted 01 September 2010 - 04:05 AM

Damn this is a FUCKING BORING THREAD.

LASERS ARE A PIECE OF SHIT.

Wow. I feel better already.

Don't bother responding because I couldn't give a shit what you think.



#133 Bowfoil

Bowfoil

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 89 posts
  • Location:The Sea
  • Interests:Sailing

Posted 01 September 2010 - 12:31 PM

Will,

Are you Youth or Master....(Grand Master ?? :P )

Hike on.....


Youth, yourself?

#134 Laser1

Laser1

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 312 posts

Posted 02 September 2010 - 02:49 PM


Will,

Are you Youth or Master....(Grand Master ?? :P )

Hike on.....


Youth, yourself?


Master + 2 boys in 4.7's

#135 Lamps

Lamps

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 538 posts

Posted 05 July 2012 - 04:20 PM

I sailed in the Winninny clubs nationals with gate starts. I said it then and I repeat it now.

it is not the game the sailors have played and played and played and played.

it would probably be a fun test of skill to hold the US golf championship where on every Tee the golfers had to drop the ball and smack it in the air.

Golf would NEVER try such a different game at a US Open.

the fact sailing hosts even consider making up a new game for championship events simply reinforces the fact Sailing is not really much of a game to them.... and their holier than thou copncieted brains must fix it for the rest of us ignorant fools.

Fuck em.

Rabbit start racing might be fun for those of you who have never been interested or successful in the standard start.

"OH I hate huge regattas. There are too many people there."

Assholes!!

Fine. If you simply don't get it, start a new game of your own and use rabbit starts.

mamy of us live for the game played behind packed starting lines and around crowded marks. To me, testing my skills in the crowd is the nirvana of sailboating.

In the mean time, if you don't like teh gaem we play, DON"T HOST!!! Don't have me drive three days across the country to come play a game and decide to "try out your new favorite idea" on all of us.

I drove 2500 miles to try my hand starting in a 120 boat fleet and somebody called it off.

Fucking assholes!!!

The hosts bid on the regatta and then said..."By the way we don't much like laser racing and are going to play a different game.

Fuck that shit!!

it is as stupid as Jerry Jones deciding this year's Super Bowl will be played with no kickoffs because too many people get hurt on kickoffs and he doesn't want people getting hurt in his stadium.

"We decided to just flip a coin and start the winner of the coin toss on its own 25 yard line."

The same twits who want gate starts probably played "T" ball because Mommy couldn't stand to watch her litle pumpkin striking out.

505s are not nearly as easy to manouver as a laser and there is not nearly as much game to be played behind the starting line as in the laser fleet. Idiots who suggest lasers ought to follow the wildly successful 505 fleet's program not only fail to understand the games being played but have no concept what so ever of big numbers of boats. Lasers regularly hold 150 boat reggattas for which the competitors must qualify!!! 505s mostly sail alone and in Portsmouth handicapped fleets.

505 sailors might do wel to take their brilliant suggestions to one of the few fleets with fewer boats at their very most important regattas.
How about you bunny start nincompoops start campaigning for its use at the America's Cup???


Ok my finger tips are sore now...I guess I'll go back to work.


Too bad Jim Rome doesn't accept sailing takes.

That was fun.


I dunno, I did the L>> worlds a long time ago in the UK - my first experience with rabbit starts, worked well. There were 3 boats from the US there out of a huge fleet. Those 3 US boats were all in the top 5 as I recall. The top sailors wind up at the top either way.

On the golf analogy the US open famously grooms its course to play very difficult - golf allows variation even at major events.

Lamps

#136 OKMLSAIL

OKMLSAIL

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 34 posts
  • Location:OK, USA
  • Interests:Go fast

Posted 05 July 2012 - 05:51 PM

I dunno, I did the L>> worlds a long time ago in the UK - my first experience with rabbit starts, worked well. There were 3 boats from the US there out of a huge fleet. Those 3 US boats were all in the top 5 as I recall. The top sailors wind up at the top either way.

On the golf analogy the US open famously grooms its course to play very difficult - golf allows variation even at major events.

Lamps


2/10

#137 Wavedancer II

Wavedancer II

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 221 posts

Posted 06 July 2012 - 01:49 PM


On the golf analogy the US open famously grooms its course to play very difficult - golf allows variation even at major events.

Lamps



Your Golf analogy with difficulty of the course is valid. The managers of the Laser sailing game do the same thing as the PGA. Jeff Martin spends a lot of time finding venues where the sailing is intensely challenging yet the breezes are sufficiently consitent to have fair contests.


Generally true; however, Oman in 2013 for the Laser Worlds looks like a joke as far as the wind is concerned.
A deal Martin/ILCA couldn't refuse?

#138 By the lee

By the lee

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 990 posts

Posted 10 July 2012 - 08:03 AM

How about instead of whining about your lack of fun on a boat for people 2/3 your size, you design and manufacture a boat whose optimum skipper is 110KG.

MegaByte?

Could we see those with smaller rigs tuned to weight classes?

Carbon structure, plastic sails, halyards; what's not to like?

I couldn't afford new?

No used ones?

:unsure: :(

#139 Steve Adolph

Steve Adolph

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,938 posts
  • Location:Ottawa, Canada

Posted 10 July 2012 - 05:41 PM

how did such a pig of a boat become the most popular dingy on the planet?
Sailed one today for the first time in nearly 20 years (1992 Asia pacific championship last regatta). I vaugly remember back then saying to myself never sail this boat again. I have since sailed all types of dinghies and there are so many better options.
I was out in 15-18 full rig not massively overpowered (110kg) but certainly not enjoying myself. The reaches are ok but dead down wind and it turns into the pig again.
Apart from big fleets what is the attraction to this boat?
What keep the Laser fleet growing? Don't people realise there are better boats out there to sail and enjoy their sailing.


perhaps scottmin would have had a better time!

#140 bruno

bruno

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,939 posts

Posted 10 July 2012 - 05:53 PM

110 k is finn weight, and even a bit much there for downwind if you want move abit. i had been waiting for the big story from SA but it was a rerun. good points but the fact that the class is currently controlled by a hustler is old news, what is the ilca going to do and when? they have to bite the bullet eventually in obsoleting inventory due to upgrades, why wait further? or are they just allowing supplies to dwindle down so the pain is completely passed down the chain? seems like an absence of strategic thinking for the isaf's vaunted largest olympic class. as for those who mechanically parrot suothern is the only spar guy, they are non-players in finns, nearest similar product.

#141 Ron D

Ron D

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 198 posts
  • Location:Toronto, Ontario
  • Interests:Dinghy Sailing

Posted 10 July 2012 - 06:00 PM

Last year, I was deciding on a new singlehander. The used market being what it is, here in Ontario, Laser would have been the natural pick, unless you like Sunfish. Went for a test sail. Being an old fart with a gimp back, did not care for the ergonomics or care about racing. Managed a good price on a Stealth. Tons of room under the boom, don't even have to duck. Cockpit is rounded and comfortable. Love the spinnaker. Happy that I did not go with a Laser.

Don't get me wrong. Laser is probably close to the top of the performance curve for a boat without trap, chute, or wings. Plus there are so many up for grabs at a cheap price. And as so many have pointed out, it has great fleet racing.

#142 scottmax

scottmax

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,151 posts
  • Location:North Queensland Gods Country

Posted 11 July 2012 - 12:26 AM

Last year, I was deciding on a new singlehander. The used market being what it is, here in Ontario, Laser would have been the natural pick, unless you like Sunfish. Went for a test sail. Being an old fart with a gimp back, did not care for the ergonomics or care about racing. Managed a good price on a Stealth. Tons of room under the boom, don't even have to duck. Cockpit is rounded and comfortable. Love the spinnaker. Happy that I did not go with a Laser.

Don't get me wrong. Laser is probably close to the top of the performance curve for a boat without trap, chute, or wings. Plus there are so many up for grabs at a cheap price. And as so many have pointed out, it has great fleet racing.


I think the finn sailors may have something to say about this. Add the sabre into the mix also. It only has safety in numbers. I would even go as far as to say if the boat was release in todays market it would not do anywhere near as well as it had in the past.
The laser is still a bad boat design, even it they decide to upgrade you cannot put lipstick onto a pig, it will still be a pig.

#143 bruno

bruno

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,939 posts

Posted 11 July 2012 - 04:34 AM

If Lasers were better built with newer stuff and a more ergonomic deck then you might be surprised to find that the shape is not that bad, its the details that underwealm. It is, after all, based on the Finn.

#144 barbedwirekeyboard

barbedwirekeyboard

    Newbie

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 18 posts
  • Location:Ohio

Posted 11 July 2012 - 05:39 AM

Everyone is listing all these boats that are better performing and more comfortable than the laser, but how many of these are cartoppable (which the laser was designed for)? What are the other cartoppable boats out there that aren't just toys you would find at a cubscout camp? Perhaps a redesigned MX Ray?

#145 Poida

Poida

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 305 posts

Posted 11 July 2012 - 12:22 PM

This thread is only popular because the laser sailors simply cannot bear to admit the laser is the biggest POS ever invented and these losers would be without a place for loners to congregate without the laser class. Class is example was the last nationals at royal Queensland yc. 350 odd lasers and 2, yes TWO laser sailors turned up to the new years celebrations at the yacht club.Loners loners loners.Suck it

#146 Ron D

Ron D

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 198 posts
  • Location:Toronto, Ontario
  • Interests:Dinghy Sailing

Posted 11 July 2012 - 03:17 PM

Everyone is listing all these boats that are better performing and more comfortable than the laser, but how many of these are cartoppable (which the laser was designed for)? What are the other cartoppable boats out there that aren't just toys you would find at a cubscout camp? Perhaps a redesigned MX Ray?


I can see the advantages for those chasing regattas around the country. Trailers are an amazing pain, due to equipment failures. You'll need two sturdy lads at both ends of the journey to load and unload the boat. Not something that you would undertake for a simple day sail. Still looking for a roof rack for my Porsche. ;)

Wonder how well the RS100 cartops. It is even lighter than the Laser.

#147 Hobie Dog

Hobie Dog

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,791 posts
  • Location:Chesapeake Bay

Posted 11 July 2012 - 07:55 PM


Everyone is listing all these boats that are better performing and more comfortable than the laser, but how many of these are cartoppable (which the laser was designed for)? What are the other cartoppable boats out there that aren't just toys you would find at a cubscout camp? Perhaps a redesigned MX Ray?


I can see the advantages for those chasing regattas around the country. Trailers are an amazing pain, due to equipment failures. You'll need two sturdy lads at both ends of the journey to load and unload the boat. Not something that you would undertake for a simple day sail. Still looking for a roof rack for my Porsche. ;)

Wonder how well the RS100 cartops. It is even lighter than the Laser.


Still going to need two sturdy lads for loading and unloading as you say. Even a 50 lbs. kayak is a PITA to car top without a helper, it's not the weight but it's an award shape to lift overhead.

#148 Hobie Dog

Hobie Dog

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,791 posts
  • Location:Chesapeake Bay

Posted 11 July 2012 - 08:00 PM

This thread is only popular because the laser sailors simply cannot bear to admit the laser is the biggest POS ever invented and these losers would be without a place for loners to congregate without the laser class. Class is example was the last nationals at royal Queensland yc. 350 odd lasers and 2, yes TWO laser sailors turned up to the new years celebrations at the yacht club.Loners loners loners.Suck it


Are you really this much of an asshole or the fact you have not been laid in a while got you on edge?

Please enlighten us on what OD class you enjoy racing in? Oh wait, that's right, you have one of those "the latest in OD racing" boats where there are 7 in the entire world so you spend most of your time sailing around by yourself spanking the monkey...

#149 Major Tom

Major Tom

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 853 posts
  • Location:Darkest Africa
  • Interests:Dinghy sailing, and good red wine!

Posted 11 July 2012 - 08:23 PM

1342036847[/url]' post='3782755']

1342009362[/url]' post='3782169']
This thread is only popular because the laser sailors simply cannot bear to admit the laser is the biggest POS ever invented and these losers would be without a place for loners to congregate without the laser class. Class is example was the last nationals at royal Queensland yc. 350 odd lasers and 2, yes TWO laser sailors turned up to the new years celebrations at the yacht club.Loners loners loners.Suck it


Are you really this much of an asshole or the fact you have not been laid in a while got you on edge?

Please enlighten us on what OD class you enjoy racing in? Oh wait, that's right, you have one of those "the latest in OD racing" boats where there are 7 in the entire world so you spend most of your time sailing around by yourself spanking the monkey...


+1,wtf is a sharpie anyway?

#150 scottmax

scottmax

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,151 posts
  • Location:North Queensland Gods Country

Posted 11 July 2012 - 10:14 PM



This thread is only popular because the laser sailors simply cannot bear to admit the laser is the biggest POS ever invented and these losers would be without a place for loners to congregate without the laser class. Class is example was the last nationals at royal Queensland yc. 350 odd lasers and 2, yes TWO laser sailors turned up to the new years celebrations at the yacht club.Loners loners loners.Suck it


Are you really this much of an asshole or the fact you have not been laid in a while got you on edge?

Please enlighten us on what OD class you enjoy racing in? Oh wait, that's right, you have one of those "the latest in OD racing" boats where there are 7 in the entire world so you spend most of your time sailing around by yourself spanking the monkey...


+1,wtf is a sharpie anyway?


A local Aussie class that delivers much more bang for your buck than a pig. + you get to sail with 2 of your mates and enjoy a alcoholic beverage after your race. No need for a rub down and bowl of pasta after each day.
Can enjoy number of 70+ boats at the nationals and its older brother "Heavy Weight Sharpie" was sailed in the 1956 Melbourne Olympics.
Google 'Light Weight Sharpie"

Disclaimer I have not sailed a sharpie for over 20 years but did in my formative years and still have great memories from doing so. I also sailed a laser at this stage of my life and did not enjoy myself one bit. I was fit back then and could sail at the front of the fleet but never came in and enjoyed a social programme that was nearly as close as the shaprie fleet.

#151 Poida

Poida

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 305 posts

Posted 12 July 2012 - 04:45 AM

85-90 boats minimum at the upcoming Sharpie nationals makes for a competitive fleet. And when you consider there are 3 of us on each boat and we don't go and hide in bed when we come in, it makes for an awesome social scene too.
.
Come on..... somebody tell my why out of 350 Lasers only 2 turned up at the bar new years eve. I know for a fact that the vast majority were on site, probably wanking in their rooms.

Defend it all you like...the boat is a pig and you all know it.

#152 Poida

Poida

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 305 posts

Posted 12 July 2012 - 04:56 AM

BTW, I may well be an arsehole but at least I'm not a mindless follower.

#153 Gouvernail

Gouvernail

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 21,608 posts
  • Location:Austin Texas
  • Interests:margaritas, hippie chicks, durable flying discs for retriever dog play

Posted 12 July 2012 - 05:01 AM

BTW, I may well be an arsehole but at least I'm not a mindless follower.


You bragging or complaining??





#154 Poida

Poida

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 305 posts

Posted 12 July 2012 - 06:26 AM

Doesn't bother me either way. I HAVE friends.

#155 Gouvernail

Gouvernail

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 21,608 posts
  • Location:Austin Texas
  • Interests:margaritas, hippie chicks, durable flying discs for retriever dog play

Posted 12 July 2012 - 07:12 AM

Doesn't bother me either way. I HAVE friends.



all the seasons??


Posted Image

#156 redstar

redstar

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 120 posts
  • Location:Itinerant

Posted 12 July 2012 - 08:55 AM

Poida, you really are a dickhead. No one cares what you sail, why do you care what anyone else does? There were 30-odd sharpies at the last nationals, not 80-90, but keep talking it up if it makes you feel better. Seriously, I wish you good luck with the next one though... unlike you I don't feel threatened by the success of another class.

The laser and sharpie sailors at the RQ nationals got on well on the rigging lawn - everyone was happy and enjoyed their sailing, with plenty of mutual respect. And just so you know, because you seem to care so much, the new years party at the club was a sharpie class function not organised by the club, so most of the laser sailors found something else to do. We assumed the party would be like the never ending presentations you guys held every fucking day after sailing - a bunch of blokes talking about how awesome they used to be.

From what I heard, a lot of the sharpie sailors found something better to do as well.

#157 Poida

Poida

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 305 posts

Posted 12 July 2012 - 11:30 AM

Arsehole, dickhead.... probably, but it matters not.

To be honest, I have no issue with the PEOPLE who choose to sail a laser, and I happily have a beer with any Laser sailor that actually turns up to the bar (if that will ever happen).

My issue is with those who simply cannot bring themselves to admit the Laser is a dog to sail. Every boat has flaws (the Sharpie is under canvassed and has a centreboard from the dark ages for example), but to blindly deny these things when anybody who has sailed a Laser knows otherwise is what totally infuriates other sailors and is why there are two popular forums currently going on exactly this matter.

Everybody wants to sail in a big fleet - we get that, but it is the total and utter blind denial that gets up everybody elses noses. So stop being a total dick and just admit it.

ps If any less than 80 sharpies turn up at the next nationals I will happily eat my words.

He he.... good one Gouv.:rolleyes:

#158 Poida

Poida

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 305 posts

Posted 12 July 2012 - 11:31 AM

Queensland has always only had 30-40 boats at the Nationals. Nothing new there mate.

#159 redstar

redstar

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 120 posts
  • Location:Itinerant

Posted 12 July 2012 - 12:24 PM

You're kidding right? Every laser sailor knows what a dog they are to sail. So are plenty of other classes. Where has anyone said otherwise? The laser is about the big fleet, one design racing. It's not about the boat.

#160 SailIowa

SailIowa

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 40 posts
  • Interests:Music/guitar, sailing, family, fine wine and quality beer.

Posted 12 July 2012 - 02:38 PM

LMAO - I had no idea there was so much disdain for Lasers. I started sailing them in club races back in the early 80's. I loved them then and I love them now. Pig to sail? If you say so. I'm sure there are a number of trap-rigged, carbon fiber sparred, mega-tweakable boats out there for folks to get a stiffy over. If you don't like hiking out and want to spend your time on a trap...go for it. For some of us, a trap isn't the end-all, be-all of sailing. It has its place, but I can be happy sailing without it.

I just like to sail, and I like to race. Lasers make great teaching boats for racing tactics. If you want to read Winning in One Designs and practice the tactics within, Lasers make a great platform for that. You don't have to spend a bunch of time pre-race tweaking this, that and the other thing and you're not spending the first minutes after rounding the windward mark making 2 dozen discrete adjustments to get that last extra .0001 knot out of your boat. You also don't have to rent a storage barn for all the extra masts that you no longer use because everyone that's fast is using something else now.

Someone early on said most races are windward-leeward? Really? Well, lay the blame for your crappy racing experience on a lazy race committee. A laser race with no reach legs and no graveyard at the jibe mark during heavy air sounds lame. Windward-leeward ain't the way we do it around here, I can tell you that.

I've been out of sailing for 15years but reading this board makes it sound like sailors these days are more into hardware tweaking than sailing. In Iowa, we rig 'em and drive 'em. We'll race anything that goes and lasers go pretty well, IMO. I raced International FJ's back in the 80's (won NC in 89) and those were about as tweak-heavy as I want to get. I prefer to spend my time sailing 'em.

The bottom line for me is that Lasers are fun to pleasure sail, they're fun to race, and, IMO, they're only a pig to someone who is a prima donna who's only happy sailing the equivalent of a Porsche. I've raced Honda Civics...they're no porsche, but if you've got tight course and equally equipped cars, it's a blast.

If you're too good for a Laser, that's fine. Shut up and go sail what makes you happy. Putting down those of us who enjoy SAILING, is petty, lame, and doesn't fit in with the generally good-natured lot that sailing attracts (or perhaps used to).

#161 southseasailor

southseasailor

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 645 posts

Posted 12 July 2012 - 04:39 PM

Hmm, Poida doesnt like Lasers? I have sailed them in the past few years...never competed though, no one here where I live to race with:( I liked the boat to a degree...for me it was only real fun going downwind on a deep reach...having to go upwind was a dog of a thing to do.

Since discovering the trapeze, learnt to use this on a Vago and now on an RS700...oh and the Hobie Cat too, I dont want to go back to the Laser...sold all mine (had 3 given to me...all in bad states of repair...fixed em all up)

Think my biggest concern is that folk get steered to the Laser if it happens to have a big following. The USA seems to have such large fleets, from what I have read on the site. Guess what I am saying is, is to not get trapped (no pun) into just this class. If you are interested in other boats, especially the higher performance ones...GO FOR IT!!

I went on a sail holiday last year to Menorca, where they had a fairly decent range of boats...mostly of the RS fold. Amongst the fleet were 4 Musto Skiffs, I was there a week...and was the only one that took one out. Big deal...of course;) it was sad that no one else even tried the challenge. The RS100 got a lot of attention, as its a hiker. Others were doing battle with a couple of 29ers.

Even, if you are a learner to sailing, you have your sights set on a foiling moth...go for it, you will get there! :)

#162 Wavedancer II

Wavedancer II

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 221 posts

Posted 12 July 2012 - 05:00 PM

LMAO - I had no idea there was so much disdain for Lasers. I started sailing them in club races back in the early 80's. I loved them then and I love them now. Pig to sail? If you say so. I'm sure there are a number of trap-rigged, carbon fiber sparred, mega-tweakable boats out there for folks to get a stiffy over. If you don't like hiking out and want to spend your time on a trap...go for it. For some of us, a trap isn't the end-all, be-all of sailing. It has its place, but I can be happy sailing without it.

I just like to sail, and I like to race. Lasers make great teaching boats for racing tactics. If you want to read Winning in One Designs and practice the tactics within, Lasers make a great platform for that. You don't have to spend a bunch of time pre-race tweaking this, that and the other thing and you're not spending the first minutes after rounding the windward mark making 2 dozen discrete adjustments to get that last extra .0001 knot out of your boat. You also don't have to rent a storage barn for all the extra masts that you no longer use because everyone that's fast is using something else now.

Someone early on said most races are windward-leeward? Really? Well, lay the blame for your crappy racing experience on a lazy race committee. A laser race with no reach legs and no graveyard at the jibe mark during heavy air sounds lame. Windward-leeward ain't the way we do it around here, I can tell you that.

I've been out of sailing for 15years but reading this board makes it sound like sailors these days are more into hardware tweaking than sailing. In Iowa, we rig 'em and drive 'em. We'll race anything that goes and lasers go pretty well, IMO. I raced International FJ's back in the 80's (won NC in 89) and those were about as tweak-heavy as I want to get. I prefer to spend my time sailing 'em.

The bottom line for me is that Lasers are fun to pleasure sail, they're fun to race, and, IMO, they're only a pig to someone who is a prima donna who's only happy sailing the equivalent of a Porsche. I've raced Honda Civics...they're no porsche, but if you've got tight course and equally equipped cars, it's a blast.

If you're too good for a Laser, that's fine. Shut up and go sail what makes you happy. Putting down those of us who enjoy SAILING, is petty, lame, and doesn't fit in with the generally good-natured lot that sailing attracts (or perhaps used to).


Good post;

I also wonder what gets some folks so stuck up about a relatively inexpensive way to have fun on the water. And competition.

No doubt that there are other boats out there that have their strong points; that's good for sailing in general. And I would love to try them, but there are very few, if any, RS100s or D-ones in my area, unfortunately.

#163 torrid

torrid

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 183 posts

Posted 12 July 2012 - 05:07 PM

I guess some Laser sailor stole his lunch at sailing camp when he was a kid?

#164 Hobie Dog

Hobie Dog

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,791 posts
  • Location:Chesapeake Bay

Posted 12 July 2012 - 05:59 PM


LMAO - I had no idea there was so much disdain for Lasers. I started sailing them in club races back in the early 80's. I loved them then and I love them now. Pig to sail? If you say so. I'm sure there are a number of trap-rigged, carbon fiber sparred, mega-tweakable boats out there for folks to get a stiffy over. If you don't like hiking out and want to spend your time on a trap...go for it. For some of us, a trap isn't the end-all, be-all of sailing. It has its place, but I can be happy sailing without it.

I just like to sail, and I like to race. Lasers make great teaching boats for racing tactics. If you want to read Winning in One Designs and practice the tactics within, Lasers make a great platform for that. You don't have to spend a bunch of time pre-race tweaking this, that and the other thing and you're not spending the first minutes after rounding the windward mark making 2 dozen discrete adjustments to get that last extra .0001 knot out of your boat. You also don't have to rent a storage barn for all the extra masts that you no longer use because everyone that's fast is using something else now.

Someone early on said most races are windward-leeward? Really? Well, lay the blame for your crappy racing experience on a lazy race committee. A laser race with no reach legs and no graveyard at the jibe mark during heavy air sounds lame. Windward-leeward ain't the way we do it around here, I can tell you that.

I've been out of sailing for 15years but reading this board makes it sound like sailors these days are more into hardware tweaking than sailing. In Iowa, we rig 'em and drive 'em. We'll race anything that goes and lasers go pretty well, IMO. I raced International FJ's back in the 80's (won NC in 89) and those were about as tweak-heavy as I want to get. I prefer to spend my time sailing 'em.

The bottom line for me is that Lasers are fun to pleasure sail, they're fun to race, and, IMO, they're only a pig to someone who is a prima donna who's only happy sailing the equivalent of a Porsche. I've raced Honda Civics...they're no porsche, but if you've got tight course and equally equipped cars, it's a blast.

If you're too good for a Laser, that's fine. Shut up and go sail what makes you happy. Putting down those of us who enjoy SAILING, is petty, lame, and doesn't fit in with the generally good-natured lot that sailing attracts (or perhaps used to).


Good post;

I also wonder what gets some folks so stuck up about a relatively inexpensive way to have fun on the water. And competition.

No doubt that there are other boats out there that have their strong points; that's good for sailing in general. And I would love to try them, but there are very few, if any, RS100s or D-ones in my area, unfortunately.


Two very good posts! We have 20 Lasers at our club because they are a relatively inexpensive boat. If the cost of entry was 8-10K I think we would see a lot less of them at our club.

And Poida for the record, at least on the Chesapeake, us Laser sailors are a very social bunch attending whatever the post racing event is... And yes I actually enjoy sailing my Laser so it is not just for the big fleet racing. And I used to own an Antrim 27 so yes I do know what a high performance boat is.

I would get a 29er but there are like 3 on the entire Chesapeake and not into driving to Canada or FL to race them...

#165 Ron D

Ron D

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 198 posts
  • Location:Toronto, Ontario
  • Interests:Dinghy Sailing

Posted 12 July 2012 - 06:00 PM

Laser isn't even the worst of the sailing pigs. There are lots of much slower classes (eg. Mirror, Optimist. Puddleduck) which people still enjoy racing. Not everyone has the agility, fine balance, or driving need for outright speed that warrants the latest speed demons. The only speed that counts is the one versus your nearest competitor.

#166 scottmax

scottmax

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,151 posts
  • Location:North Queensland Gods Country

Posted 12 July 2012 - 08:18 PM

Laser isn't even the worst of the sailing pigs. There are lots of much slower classes (eg. Mirror, Optimist. Puddleduck) which people still enjoy racing. Not everyone has the agility, fine balance, or driving need for outright speed that warrants the latest speed demons. The only speed that counts is the one versus your nearest competitor.


This is not about speed alone, it is also about the fact you can sail comfortably and enjoy your sailing, 2 out of the 3 classes you mention are targeted at juniors mainly so it is not even a close comparison, apples and oranges come to mind.

And do not tell me you do not need much agility to tack the pig laser . Its boom is just as low to the deck as the contender. And balance, have you sailed one down wind in above 15knots?

The goose who said earlier up the thread about storing the latests and greatest has not read the entire thread. There are a truck load of OD boats on the market today that everybody is the same on the water RS100, RS700, D-One just to name 3 quickly. And you would enjoy your sailing a truck load better. My point is why do people follow like sheep and just look at the laser and no further. Get your head outside and look around, there is choice and sailing will be just as if not more pleasurable.
Even the ultimate in open design the moth you would find 80% of the fleet have bought the same gear from one of the leading makers and only the last 20% would be pushing the envelope to change what they have, so even though I am not saying the moths are now a OD they all pretty much buy from one of 2 factories. Most of the people on the water are sailing with the same gear.

As far as cost goes the laser is cheap because there are hundreds of thousands of the things lying around. But here is food for thought I bought my first contender for $1000 2 other guys in my town got one each for $400 and free. This is a small class compared to a laser but my point is if you look around you can find cheap better (in my mind) boats to sail. For a good condition 2nd hand laser that you could race at the front of the fleet $5-6K for the same in a contender $5-6K, about the same money and the contender would probably come with carbon sticks at that price. (These are Aussie prices)

If you want to look at new I believe a new RS100 with epoxy hull and carbon everything else is $14000 AUS on the water with cover and a beach trolley. This boat is also car topalbe if that is what gets you off. I do not know what a laser cost new but guess it is not far from this price.

Do not be sheep people buy a boat you can enjoy to sail, if it happens to be a pig laser good for you, but hopefully this thread will just get people to think before they just blindly walk into the laser trap. There are much better choices out there and that is what the thread is about, choice.

#167 mrpelicano

mrpelicano

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 496 posts
  • Location:New England
  • Interests:Racing sailboats, bicycling (road and mtb), guitar, wine, travel, pit bulls.

Posted 12 July 2012 - 08:38 PM

Just a quick reply to ScottMax -

Location is one of several key factors in deciding what dinghy class to race. If you want to sail in large fleets, against good competition, you have to look around and see what people are sailing in your neck of the woods. I'm going through this process right now, here in Long Island Sound. When I look at the options and factor in things like purchase price, campaigning costs, body weight (no Finn for me), transportability, etc., the Laser ends up being pretty much the only game in town, for singlehanded dinghies. Personally, I'd prefer sailing a trapeze boat, or something with an A-kite, but none of those exist where I am, or even close by. Closest other options are Moths and A Class cats, but for both of those there simply aren't enough boats in the area.

Obviously, things are much different if you live in the U.K. or other parts of Europe (though not everywhere). Don't know about Oz. To be honest, I have no idea why Americans are stuck with Lasers when the technology has evolved so much since the 1970's. And even making them an Olympic class didn't do the trick, seeing as how that is usually the kiss of death for a class. So, for the time being, it looks like it will be Laser racing in 2013. I can do an entire campaign, including boat, sails, travel, etc., for about $8K. Can't really do that in anything else I can think of.

Best,

MrP

#168 SailIowa

SailIowa

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 40 posts
  • Interests:Music/guitar, sailing, family, fine wine and quality beer.

Posted 12 July 2012 - 08:47 PM


Laser isn't even the worst of the sailing pigs. There are lots of much slower classes (eg. Mirror, Optimist. Puddleduck) which people still enjoy racing. Not everyone has the agility, fine balance, or driving need for outright speed that warrants the latest speed demons. The only speed that counts is the one versus your nearest competitor.


This is not about speed alone, it is also about the fact you can sail comfortably and enjoy your sailing, 2 out of the 3 classes you mention are targeted at juniors mainly so it is not even a close comparison, apples and oranges come to mind.

And do not tell me you do not need much agility to tack the pig laser . Its boom is just as low to the deck as the contender. And balance, have you sailed one down wind in above 15knots?

The goose who said earlier up the thread about storing the latests and greatest has not read the entire thread. There are a truck load of OD boats on the market today that everybody is the same on the water RS100, RS700, D-One just to name 3 quickly. And you would enjoy your sailing a truck load better. My point is why do people follow like sheep and just look at the laser and no further. Get your head outside and look around, there is choice and sailing will be just as if not more pleasurable.
Even the ultimate in open design the moth you would find 80% of the fleet have bought the same gear from one of the leading makers and only the last 20% would be pushing the envelope to change what they have, so even though I am not saying the moths are now a OD they all pretty much buy from one of 2 factories. Most of the people on the water are sailing with the same gear.

As far as cost goes the laser is cheap because there are hundreds of thousands of the things lying around. But here is food for thought I bought my first contender for $1000 2 other guys in my town got one each for $400 and free. This is a small class compared to a laser but my point is if you look around you can find cheap better (in my mind) boats to sail. For a good condition 2nd hand laser that you could race at the front of the fleet $5-6K for the same in a contender $5-6K, about the same money and the contender would probably come with carbon sticks at that price. (These are Aussie prices)

If you want to look at new I believe a new RS100 with epoxy hull and carbon everything else is $14000 AUS on the water with cover and a beach trolley. This boat is also car topalbe if that is what gets you off. I do not know what a laser cost new but guess it is not far from this price.

Do not be sheep people buy a boat you can enjoy to sail, if it happens to be a pig laser good for you, but hopefully this thread will just get people to think before they just blindly walk into the laser trap. There are much better choices out there and that is what the thread is about, choice.



Sorry, I enjoy sailing lasers. I'm sorry you find that so offensive. Baaahh!

#169 southseasailor

southseasailor

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 645 posts

Posted 12 July 2012 - 11:27 PM

Ron D, yes the Mirror! I started off sailing with one of these. It was a kit boat...instructions were terribly written and the sketches were awful...like they were done by a small child.

Otherwise? Mirrors are very capable little boats...we had about 9 of them in the Falklands, the idea being to race them. That hardly ever happened, I bought my kit from a guy who didnt have the time to build it. I had always wanted to sail, and figured this would be the ideal boat.

Sold her after a few months, but not before spending pretty much all of my spare time sailing her....I practically lived in that boat :) I had gotten hold of a beat up old Laser 2, after cobbling a rig together this laser was a pure revelation in terms of performance...the Mirror had to go...pointless keeping her as she was just too slow!

I dont know, each to thier own is the phrase I hear often. In the UK there are still the old classes of boat getting used/raced all the time. Merlin Rockets to Shearwater Cats (thats a one good looking design...verrrryyy nice) Mirrors....Cadets....Miracles....you name the design...chances are they are owned, cherished and used.

Looking at Apolloducks site the rest of the world has a VERY poor choice for used small sailcraft...the UK part has pretty much all types shown...with often several boats for sale in each category.

#170 Ron D

Ron D

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 198 posts
  • Location:Toronto, Ontario
  • Interests:Dinghy Sailing

Posted 13 July 2012 - 02:21 AM

Looking at Apolloducks site the rest of the world has a VERY poor choice for used small sailcraft...the UK part has pretty much all types shown...with often several boats for sale in each category.


And it's a damn shame too! Just scanning the latest 200 boats in the used boats section for my part of the world, the fastest things in there is the 14 lasers, 2 albacores, and 2 cats. The rest is a complete mixed bag with no two boats the same. Not a trap, chute, or wing in sight. It's like the elephant graveyard for lasers - guys asking $2,300 for 30 year old lasers.

Thank God for Fogh Marine, trying to bring enlightenment to the unwashed masses, by importing boats from RS to our part of the world. I'm starting to see some of their boats at my local club. It'll be a few years yet before we start to see any real RS activity in the used boat market.

Actually, truth be told. In this part of the world, if you want a used high performance boat, you need to press the flesh and ask around. The fun boats almost never make it as far as the classifieds, with the deals happening in the clubs.

#171 southseasailor

southseasailor

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 645 posts

Posted 13 July 2012 - 04:32 PM

Crikey, thats way too expensive for old lasers. The UK has a great range of boats...and a good healthy race circuit for many types. I dont race...never get the chance to. I just sail for the pure fun of it.

Introducing new boats must be hard to do. But surely if a diehard laser owner takes a spin on an RS100....something must give...surely? its like sailing a much more comfy Laser with the added benefit of a Spinnaker. I enjoyed my time on the 100 I tried last year, but hated its upwind performance...having gotten fat and spoilt with using trapeze;)

I do like the RS range, I like them very much and hope they gain popularity in the USA.

#172 Ron D

Ron D

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 198 posts
  • Location:Toronto, Ontario
  • Interests:Dinghy Sailing

Posted 13 July 2012 - 06:08 PM

Crikey, thats way too expensive for old lasers.


Sheesh. A different guy just put up his 1975 Laser with trailer for $3,500. Must have a gold plated dagger board, or Leonard Cohen sailed it in his youth. They're selling boats for more than they cost when brand new!

#173 SailIowa

SailIowa

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 40 posts
  • Interests:Music/guitar, sailing, family, fine wine and quality beer.

Posted 13 July 2012 - 06:11 PM

Took a look at the RS100....that thing looks like a blast. I can see why coming from that you might not be thrilled sailing a Laser. I can't see paying $14k for something like that. If I'm in that price range, I'm gonna get an E scow or a Melges 17....not singlehanders, but fun boats and I can always find crew.

#174 SailIowa

SailIowa

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 40 posts
  • Interests:Music/guitar, sailing, family, fine wine and quality beer.

Posted 13 July 2012 - 06:24 PM


Crikey, thats way too expensive for old lasers.


Sheesh. A different guy just put up his 1975 Laser with trailer for $3,500. Must have a gold plated dagger board, or Leonard Cohen sailed it in his youth. They're selling boats for more than they cost when brand new!



Just because he's asking that doesn't mean he'll get it.




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users