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J/111 Goes Sailing...


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#701 ragbag

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Posted 28 January 2011 - 07:58 PM

I think your going to see this boat rating 3 to 6 sec/mi. slower than a 122.


My J/111 hull #4, the Invisible Hand, received its PHRF rating today of 36 (San Francisco Bay Area)

#702 alymatt

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Posted 28 January 2011 - 08:19 PM


I think your going to see this boat rating 3 to 6 sec/mi. slower than a 122.


My J/111 hull #4, the Invisible Hand, received its PHRF rating today of 36 (San Francisco Bay Area)



That seems fair.......I was guessing 33-36 for it........for your area ( windy ) I would of thought 33 while the PNW in a lighter venue, 36 ! Either way, I think it is competitive and fair.

#703 TCWippy

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Posted 29 January 2011 - 02:05 AM


I think your going to see this boat rating 3 to 6 sec/mi. slower than a 122.


My J/111 hull #4, the Invisible Hand, received its PHRF rating today of 36 (San Francisco Bay Area)


Congrats. From what I've seen, I think you will do very well with that rating.

#704 ragbag

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Posted 29 January 2011 - 02:59 AM



I think your going to see this boat rating 3 to 6 sec/mi. slower than a 122.


My J/111 hull #4, the Invisible Hand, received its PHRF rating today of 36 (San Francisco Bay Area)



That seems fair.......I was guessing 33-36 for it........for your area ( windy ) I would of thought 33 while the PNW in a lighter venue, 36 ! Either way, I think it is competitive and fair.


It may have helped that we were able to provide the ORR measurements and handicap we received for another race. More data, less opinion.

#705 Monster Mash

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Posted 30 January 2011 - 06:16 AM




I think your going to see this boat rating 3 to 6 sec/mi. slower than a 122.


My J/111 hull #4, the Invisible Hand, received its PHRF rating today of 36 (San Francisco Bay Area)



That seems fair.......I was guessing 33-36 for it........for your area ( windy ) I would of thought 33 while the PNW in a lighter venue, 36 ! Either way, I think it is competitive and fair.


It may have helped that we were able to provide the ORR measurements and handicap we received for another race. More data, less opinion.



Congrats for getting a rating of 39 for the Three Bridge.

#706 solosailor

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Posted 30 January 2011 - 07:20 AM

Congrats for getting a rating of 39 for the Three Bridge.

Not sure what your talking about...... Maybe the fact that they just put in a rating until the PHRF meeting Thursday when the 36 was issued. SSS has it entered @36 on the entry page:

http://www.jibeset.net/entrylist.php

#707 solosailor

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Posted 30 January 2011 - 07:24 AM

That seems fair.......I was guessing 33-36 for it........for your area ( windy ) I would of thought 33 while the PNW in a lighter venue, 36 ! Either way, I think it is competitive and fair.

From what I heard the other 111s have been rated 42 elsewhere.....

#708 Monster Mash

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Posted 30 January 2011 - 07:25 AM

Congrats for getting a rating of 39 for the Three Bridge.

Not sure what your talking about...... Maybe the fact that they just put in a rating until the PHRF meeting Thursday when the 36 was issued. SSS has it entered @36 on the entry page:

http://www.jibeset.net/entrylist.php



Rsults show it at 39. No dog in this fight just stating a fact.

11104 Frank Slootman Invisible Hand 39 16:38:11 16:38:11 16 Encinal J/111

#709 solosailor

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Posted 30 January 2011 - 07:39 AM

Results have been miss entered..... That's a fact. Again, check the entry sheet which is what the committee went by for the starts. Doesn't change a thing as we started the race with the 36.

#710 goblew

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Posted 30 January 2011 - 12:05 PM

But a 3rd place in class and 16th overall ain't too shabby! Well done.

#711 ragbag

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Posted 30 January 2011 - 04:32 PM

Congrats for getting a rating of 39 for the Three Bridge.

Not sure what your talking about...... Maybe the fact that they just put in a rating until the PHRF meeting Thursday when the 36 was issued. SSS has it entered @36 on the entry page:

http://www.jibeset.net/entrylist.php


Yes, I entered the 39 in the online application when we did not have a rating yet. Else, it would not accept my application online, knowing it was subject to change. PHRF was issued as 36, and we started the race at the time indicated for boats rated 36.

#712 ragbag

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Posted 30 January 2011 - 04:41 PM

But a 3rd place in class and 16th overall ain't too shabby! Well done.


We had a serious snafu on the J/111 with the head sail not wanting to unfurl the whole race. We set the code zero for as long as we could in lieu of having a working head sail. Our choice of bridges at the start was thereby determined by our head sail limitations. We were quite sure we'd have to give up after Red Rock as it was a beat back to TI. Solosailor managed to get the head sail to unfurl a lot further maybe about 80-85%. It looked like crap, tell tales wouldn't fly etc. but the boat was still pretty quick in spit of this. Still don't know what the furler problem is. We could not get the headsail down last night. For new/prospective 111 owners, keep an eye on this, we've had issues with the furler from day one. Not sure if we can fix or will replace.

#713 Jambalaya

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Posted 30 January 2011 - 05:18 PM

Ragbag - furler thoughts (excuse if you know this already, based on my experience with Harken which is generally excelent)

  • wash top and bottom drums through with water (could have dust/salt in them)
  • headsail design, how far is the top furler drum from full hoist (length of headsail luff determines this, I've had trouble with sails which set "too low" and the angle/length of halyard can stop the drum turning)
  • halyard tension


#714 ragbag

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Posted 30 January 2011 - 05:23 PM

Ragbag - furler thoughts (excuse if you know this already, based on my experience with Harken which is generally excelent)

  • wash top and bottom drums through with water (could have dust/salt in them)
  • headsail design, how far is the top furler drum from full hoist (length of headsail luff determines this, I've had trouble with sails which set "too low" and the angle/length of halyard can stop the drum turning)
  • halyard tension


If I had to guess it's related to your #2. Pure speculation though. The furler is brand new (Facnor), the bottom drum has no issues, and we completely released the halyard. Had we had a bosun chair on the boat, Solosailor would have gone up the mast to examine the snafu. I guess that is why they call this race a Fiasco.

#715 crash

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Posted 30 January 2011 - 10:47 PM

Lack of halyard tension can cause the snafu in the first place, releasing halyard usually makes it worse. At least that was my experience on my J109 (which had a harken furler) as well as my current ride (S-2 9.1) with a facnor...time spent checking all the sails on the furler, while pierside, with guy up the mast is well worth it. Check angle of halyard is right, check clearances, check for potential snags, check with backstay on hard, and with backstay released. Furlers like backstay tension. Dialed in, they are pretty good. but you need to spend the time to dial them in. Kinda like calibrating your instruments.



#716 edasner

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Posted 30 January 2011 - 11:19 PM


Ragbag - furler thoughts (excuse if you know this already, based on my experience with Harken which is generally excelent)

  • wash top and bottom drums through with water (could have dust/salt in them)
  • headsail design, how far is the top furler drum from full hoist (length of headsail luff determines this, I've had trouble with sails which set "too low" and the angle/length of halyard can stop the drum turning)
  • halyard tension


If I had to guess it's related to your #2. Pure speculation though. The furler is brand new (Facnor), the bottom drum has no issues, and we completely released the halyard. Had we had a bosun chair on the boat, Solosailor would have gone up the mast to examine the snafu. I guess that is why they call this race a Fiasco.


Please let us know what the issue turns out to be once you sort it out. thanks

#717 Trevor B

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Posted 31 January 2011 - 01:17 AM

Why do you even have a furler?

#718 ragbag

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Posted 31 January 2011 - 01:47 AM

Why do you even have a furler?


In this particular race we wished we didn't have one ;-)

#719 Left Hook

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Posted 31 January 2011 - 04:55 AM

Ragbag, you mentioned you have a Code Zero. What's the story with that? Namely
  • Who built it?
  • How are you flying it?
  • Do you see the need for a bobstay?
  • How does the boat like it?
Thanks

#720 ragbag

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Posted 31 January 2011 - 05:53 AM

Ragbag, you mentioned you have a Code Zero. What's the story with that? Namely

  • Who built it?
  • How are you flying it?
  • Do you see the need for a bobstay?
  • How does the boat like it?
Thanks


See picture of the setup attached. It was built by a frequent contributor to this forum. We just completed it this week, and flew the code zero a lot during the 3BF race. It has a bobstay as you can see. It is a great setup in light breeze, boat powers up rapidly with the big sail. The carbon fiber prod is affectionately known as the strap-on. It can come off for OD sailing if need be.

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  • photo-9.jpg


#721 Jambalaya

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Posted 31 January 2011 - 09:00 AM

Lack of halyard tension can cause the snafu in the first place, releasing halyard usually makes it worse. At least that was my experience on my J109 (which had a harken furler) as well as my current ride (S-2 9.1) with a facnor...time spent checking all the sails on the furler, while pierside, with guy up the mast is well worth it. Check angle of halyard is right, check clearances, check for potential snags, check with backstay on hard, and with backstay released. Furlers like backstay tension. Dialed in, they are pretty good. but you need to spend the time to dial them in. Kinda like calibrating your instruments.


My experience also, and agreed on the rest of this post.

Ragbag - I like the code-0 setup, I believe under IRC you'd get that rated for free assuming the sail measures as a spinnaker and is smaller than the largest kite, the strap-on is shorter than the normal bowsprit so that should attract no penalty.

Did you consider flying the zero off of the regular pole, I am thining you could partially extend it and have an adjustable bob-stay ?

Also the tack blocks (two for kite peels ?) are very small, strong enough ?

#722 Left Hook

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Posted 31 January 2011 - 09:19 AM


Lack of halyard tension can cause the snafu in the first place, releasing halyard usually makes it worse. At least that was my experience on my J109 (which had a harken furler) as well as my current ride (S-2 9.1) with a facnor...time spent checking all the sails on the furler, while pierside, with guy up the mast is well worth it. Check angle of halyard is right, check clearances, check for potential snags, check with backstay on hard, and with backstay released. Furlers like backstay tension. Dialed in, they are pretty good. but you need to spend the time to dial them in. Kinda like calibrating your instruments.


My experience also, and agreed on the rest of this post.

Ragbag - I like the code-0 setup, I believe under IRC you'd get that rated for free assuming the sail measures as a spinnaker and is smaller than the largest kite, the strap-on is shorter than the normal bowsprit so that should attract no penalty.

Did you consider flying the zero off of the regular pole, I am thining you could partially extend it and have an adjustable bob-stay ?

Also the tack blocks (two for kite peels ?) are very small, strong enough ?


I find choosing the fixed prod over flying it off the bowsprit to be an interesting decision as well. Sure I've seen the fixed, short, sprit on other boats before but my experience with these sails is that the farther out you can get it the better. Would you mind filling us in on who designed the sail and what their justification was for the fixed sprit over a flying it off the pole? I'm still trying to understand the different mindsets behind the many setups.

That said, the term "code zero" is remarkably broad with 5-6 radically different schools of design falling into the category, so I'm not surprised that I've stumbled across more examples.

#723 Jambalaya

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Posted 31 January 2011 - 12:08 PM

Ragbag - just spotted on large scale photo that you are not using blocks on spi-tack, so my question is irrelevant

#724 ragbag

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Posted 31 January 2011 - 02:05 PM


Lack of halyard tension can cause the snafu in the first place, releasing halyard usually makes it worse. At least that was my experience on my J109 (which had a harken furler) as well as my current ride (S-2 9.1) with a facnor...time spent checking all the sails on the furler, while pierside, with guy up the mast is well worth it. Check angle of halyard is right, check clearances, check for potential snags, check with backstay on hard, and with backstay released. Furlers like backstay tension. Dialed in, they are pretty good. but you need to spend the time to dial them in. Kinda like calibrating your instruments.


My experience also, and agreed on the rest of this post.

Ragbag - I like the code-0 setup, I believe under IRC you'd get that rated for free assuming the sail measures as a spinnaker and is smaller than the largest kite, the strap-on is shorter than the normal bowsprit so that should attract no penalty.

Did you consider flying the zero off of the regular pole, I am thining you could partially extend it and have an adjustable bob-stay ?

Also the tack blocks (two for kite peels ?) are very small, strong enough ?


You can't partially extend the pole and fly a code zero as the pole will not be in the middle of the boat. It is possible to fly off the fully extended pole, we were just worried about what kind of forces we would unleash on it. There is quite a bit of flex on the pole fully extended. The bobstay of course helps but there are side to side flexes as well as you trim on the sail. The code zero holds the middle between a headsail and a kite, the luff tension is considerable. This prod is insanely strong. We blow up the pole, we have no weapons left. It is a conservative approach that we took.

#725 SailRacer

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Posted 31 January 2011 - 03:37 PM

IMHO:
If you flew it from the pole, it would most likely break (or bend too much) due to the halyard tension required.
Sail Safe!

#726 Jah

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Posted 31 January 2011 - 04:08 PM

ragbag,

How do you like the ferrules on your sprit? What brand and size did you use?

#727 Left Hook

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Posted 31 January 2011 - 05:57 PM

There is quite a bit of flex on the pole fully extended. The bobstay of course helps but there are side to side flexes as well as you trim on the sail.


This is troubling <_<

#728 sailman

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Posted 31 January 2011 - 07:12 PM


I think your going to see this boat rating 3 to 6 sec/mi. slower than a 122.


My J/111 hull #4, the Invisible Hand, received its PHRF rating today of 36 (San Francisco Bay Area)


That seems like a fair rating based on the KWRW performance.

#729 ERIK R

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Posted 31 January 2011 - 09:29 PM


But a 3rd place in class and 16th overall ain't too shabby! Well done.


We had a serious snafu on the J/111 with the head sail not wanting to unfurl the whole race. We set the code zero for as long as we could in lieu of having a working head sail. Our choice of bridges at the start was thereby determined by our head sail limitations. We were quite sure we'd have to give up after Red Rock as it was a beat back to TI. Solosailor managed to get the head sail to unfurl a lot further maybe about 80-85%. It looked like crap, tell tales wouldn't fly etc. but the boat was still pretty quick in spit of this. Still don't know what the furler problem is. We could not get the headsail down last night. For new/prospective 111 owners, keep an eye on this, we've had issues with the furler from day one. Not sure if we can fix or will replace.


We had a problem at first on the boat in SD. You need to use the skinny shackle on the top of the halyard swivel. Other shackles rub against the moving part of the swivel and bind it up. Once we put the tall, skinny shackle on the halyard we had no more issues.

#730 solosailor

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Posted 31 January 2011 - 10:26 PM

How do you like the ferrules on your sprit? What brand and size did you use?

We've been using then on several rides..... they work great for static load applications like this. Hansen Rigging has numerous sizes.

#731 solosailor

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Posted 31 January 2011 - 10:29 PM

ad a problem at first on the boat in SD. You need to use the skinny shackle on the top of the halyard swivel. Other shackles rub against the moving part of the swivel and bind it up. Once we put the tall, skinny shackle on the halyard we had no more issues.

Had a body up the rig today to look for issues and roll/unroll and of course it just came right out!!! Tried everything Saturday, varied halyard tension of course. Narrow shackle sounds like the culprit. Thanks.

#732 solosailor

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Posted 31 January 2011 - 10:36 PM

Why do you even have a furler?

Came with the boat.... class rules, although no class racing this year.

#733 ragbag

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Posted 01 February 2011 - 01:49 AM

ad a problem at first on the boat in SD. You need to use the skinny shackle on the top of the halyard swivel. Other shackles rub against the moving part of the swivel and bind it up. Once we put the tall, skinny shackle on the halyard we had no more issues.

Had a body up the rig today to look for issues and roll/unroll and of course it just came right out!!! Tried everything Saturday, varied halyard tension of course. Narrow shackle sounds like the culprit. Thanks.


We had a narrow shackle, and it was replaced after we bent the narrow one on our first couple of sails. Will have to look at it being sufficient for the load.

#734 ragbag

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Posted 01 February 2011 - 03:44 AM

Why do you even have a furler?


The topic of furler/no furler can fill a thread all its own. I like them for short handed racing. One pull and the sail is gone. Safer on the ocean maybe with less hands having to leave the safety of the cockpit. Big downsides weight aloft and snafus like we had on race day. If I raced crewed mostly, I probably would do without. The boat does come standard equipped with it though.

#735 mustang__1

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Posted 03 February 2011 - 07:02 PM


There is quite a bit of flex on the pole fully extended. The bobstay of course helps but there are side to side flexes as well as you trim on the sail.


This is troubling <_<


most people call it physics.

#736 ragbag

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Posted 03 February 2011 - 07:14 PM



There is quite a bit of flex on the pole fully extended. The bobstay of course helps but there are side to side flexes as well as you trim on the sail.


This is troubling <_<


most people call it physics.


Bottom line is that J Boats designed this boat without a code zero. J Boats don't have an opinion on how to set it up. So, owners need to come up with conservative rigging scenarios so they don't break things. There will be dealers from what I have been told that are going to rig code zeros from the pole with a bobstay. We will see how well that does. We have our bow prod today, but it won't stop us down the road from going to a more aggressive setup if it proves out to be working well. Rule #1 in racing is to keep things in one piece.

#737 alymatt

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Posted 03 February 2011 - 08:23 PM




There is quite a bit of flex on the pole fully extended. The bobstay of course helps but there are side to side flexes as well as you trim on the sail.


This is troubling Posted Image


most people call it physics.


Bottom line is that J Boats designed this boat without a code zero. J Boats don't have an opinion on how to set it up. So, owners need to come up with conservative rigging scenarios so they don't break things. There will be dealers from what I have been told that are going to rig code zeros from the pole with a bobstay. We will see how well that does. We have our bow prod today, but it won't stop us down the road from going to a more aggressive setup if it proves out to be working well. Rule #1 in racing is to keep things in one piece.



Well said..........I think a lot of it has to do with where you sail and what you truly will be doing with the zero.

Where you are it will be used as a blast reacher more so than a true upwind sail IMO .......that I would bet will mean less luff pressure required but the pole will under go more lateral movements. In the PNW where we would use the zero for true upwind sailing and it is critical then to get max vmg to grind the #$#@$@ out of the halyard, thus the pole would be pointing up and not last 15 minutes or the first decent wave.

I think I prefer the look of the boat with the fixed prod but off the pole will be faster.......if the pole survives that is

#738 Monster Mash

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Posted 04 February 2011 - 01:35 AM

I see NorCal PHRF has given the SC 37 a rating of 27. That means she gives the J111 (phrf 36) 9 seconds a mile. Should make for some interesting racing on SF Bay.

#739 Jim Z

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Posted 09 February 2011 - 04:33 AM

Good representation of the J-111 production line at CCF in Bristol RI. This image taken 19 January. #17 in the foreground is supposed to be completed by 18 February.

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  • J-111 #17 Hull Interior Fab - P1190045.jpg


#740 dickie greenleaf

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Posted 09 February 2011 - 06:50 PM

Question...

What's the deal with the holes in the aft cabins? So that you can get to the steering quadrant in a pinch and quickly? Why no covers... another issue with weight?

DG

#741 ragbag

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Posted 09 February 2011 - 06:54 PM

Question...

What's the deal with the holes in the aft cabins? So that you can get to the steering quadrant in a pinch and quickly? Why no covers... another issue with weight?

DG


It is an access issue. You can't install or get to your AP gear very well otherwise. We have now put canvas zippable covers on them so stuff can't accidentally get back there and get caught in steering mechanics.

#742 solosailor

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Posted 09 February 2011 - 08:06 PM

Covered:

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#743 Left Hook

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Posted 09 February 2011 - 10:25 PM

Here it is without:

Posted Image


#744 jsailannapolis

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Posted 10 February 2011 - 02:59 AM

I wonder if that will become standard zip out like on the 105. Seems like a silly thing to leave out...

#745 crash

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Posted 10 February 2011 - 03:29 AM

I wonder if that will become standard zip out like on the 105. Seems like a silly thing to leave out...



If it were me, I might have to go with a nice 3/8 inch sheet of ply with matching teak veneer, varnished, with a finger hole and couple of horns on the backside to let it drop in place and hold it there. Would dress up the space and make it look yachty. Might add about 5 lbs over the open mesh weave though...

#746 hermetic

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Posted 10 February 2011 - 05:50 PM




There is quite a bit of flex on the pole fully extended. The bobstay of course helps but there are side to side flexes as well as you trim on the sail.


This is troubling Posted Image


most people call it physics.


Bottom line is that J Boats designed this boat without a code zero. J Boats don't have an opinion on how to set it up. So, owners need to come up with conservative rigging scenarios so they don't break things. There will be dealers from what I have been told that are going to rig code zeros from the pole with a bobstay. We will see how well that does. We have our bow prod today, but it won't stop us down the road from going to a more aggressive setup if it proves out to be working well. Rule #1 in racing is to keep things in one piece.


Why don't the J's just up the layout schedule on the prod? a couple more layers of CF and a bobstay would seem to be the ticket.

While a C0 isn't necessary for OD racing, anytime that thing bends up the Asail shape will suffer.

#747 goblew

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Posted 10 February 2011 - 05:54 PM

I don't think either is as light or would look as good as a nice duct tape cover!

#748 ragbag

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Posted 10 February 2011 - 07:11 PM





There is quite a bit of flex on the pole fully extended. The bobstay of course helps but there are side to side flexes as well as you trim on the sail.


This is troubling Posted Image


most people call it physics.


Bottom line is that J Boats designed this boat without a code zero. J Boats don't have an opinion on how to set it up. So, owners need to come up with conservative rigging scenarios so they don't break things. There will be dealers from what I have been told that are going to rig code zeros from the pole with a bobstay. We will see how well that does. We have our bow prod today, but it won't stop us down the road from going to a more aggressive setup if it proves out to be working well. Rule #1 in racing is to keep things in one piece.




Why don't the J's just up the layout schedule on the prod? a couple more layers of CF and a bobstay would seem to be the ticket.

While a C0 isn't necessary for OD racing, anytime that thing bends up the Asail shape will suffer.


I am not a composite engineer, but I expect that the pole would have to be reengineered to perhaps be shorter and completely rigid unlike the bendy pole we have today. It is what you see on all the bigger race boats that fly these sails.

#749 goblew

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Posted 10 February 2011 - 09:29 PM

I am not a composite engineer, but I expect that the pole would have to be reengineered to perhaps be shorter and completely rigid unlike the bendy pole we have today. It is what you see on all the bigger race boats that fly these sails.


I talked with my sailmaker yesterday and he recommended tacking to the pole and shortening pole extension as wind increased. He said that is how many of the other J sprit boats handle the code 0 without problem. I do like the bomb-proof sprit you built though.

#750 ragbag

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Posted 10 February 2011 - 10:24 PM

Hull #4, The Invisible Hand, on the cover of Yachting World this month!

I am a proud papa today! Kudos to Photoboy for his fancy photography!

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#751 ragbag

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Posted 10 February 2011 - 10:34 PM



I am not a composite engineer, but I expect that the pole would have to be reengineered to perhaps be shorter and completely rigid unlike the bendy pole we have today. It is what you see on all the bigger race boats that fly these sails.


I talked with my sailmaker yesterday and he recommended tacking to the pole and shortening pole extension as wind increased. He said that is how many of the other J sprit boats handle the code 0 without problem. I do like the bomb-proof sprit you built though.


You can shorrten the pole but it will no longer be flown off the boat's center. May not be a huge issue.

#752 dickie greenleaf

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Posted 10 February 2011 - 11:10 PM

Hull #4, The Invisible Hand, on the cover of Yachting World this month!

I am a proud papa today! Kudos to Photoboy for his fancy photography!


Nice! Well done. Too bad you can't be seen in the photo. But, then again, who gives two shits about what you look like.

DG

#753 Jim Z

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Posted 11 February 2011 - 01:55 AM

Hull #4, The Invisible Hand, on the cover of Yachting World this month!

I am a proud papa today! Kudos to Photoboy for his fancy photography!


For a shot like this there was certainly some "fancy Drivin" going on too ;0)) Great Stuff...Congrats Rag Bag!

#754 ragbag

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Posted 11 February 2011 - 02:52 AM


Hull #4, The Invisible Hand, on the cover of Yachting World this month!

I am a proud papa today! Kudos to Photoboy for his fancy photography!


For a shot like this there was certainly some "fancy Drivin" going on too ;0)) Great Stuff...Congrats Rag Bag!


Ironically Jim Z is visible in the shot, he is sitting on the right in the picture with the vang ready to release (sorry to blow your cover Jim ;-). Based on that, we have since led the vang line aft to both sides of the boat to a cleat so nobody has to stay on deck so close to the mast.

#755 mustang__1

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Posted 11 February 2011 - 03:53 AM



Hull #4, The Invisible Hand, on the cover of Yachting World this month!

I am a proud papa today! Kudos to Photoboy for his fancy photography!


For a shot like this there was certainly some "fancy Drivin" going on too ;0)) Great Stuff...Congrats Rag Bag!


Ironically Jim Z is visible in the shot, he is sitting on the right in the picture with the vang ready to release (sorry to blow your cover Jim ;-). Based on that, we have since led the vang line aft to both sides of the boat to a cleat so nobody has to stay on deck so close to the mast.


yeah, thats one of those things that bothered me about the 111, so many things were right, but the vang wasnt lead aft, and the clutches are split on either side of the companionway. granted you can put in crossfeeders etc, but still, it just simplifies things to have it all down the middle of the companion way. that and the roller furling...

#756 goblew

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Posted 11 February 2011 - 04:40 AM




I am not a composite engineer, but I expect that the pole would have to be reengineered to perhaps be shorter and completely rigid unlike the bendy pole we have today. It is what you see on all the bigger race boats that fly these sails.


I talked with my sailmaker yesterday and he recommended tacking to the pole and shortening pole extension as wind increased. He said that is how many of the other J sprit boats handle the code 0 without problem. I do like the bomb-proof sprit you built though.


You can shorrten the pole but it will no longer be flown off the boat's center. May not be a huge issue.


I asked about that too and he said just that - not a big issue. So I'll ponder for a while.....

#757 ragbag

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Posted 11 February 2011 - 07:40 AM

Hull #4, The Invisible Hand, on the cover of Yachting World this month!

I am a proud papa today! Kudos to Photoboy for his fancy photography!


Last time I checked that pole was on the starboard side!

#758 Jambalaya

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Posted 11 February 2011 - 09:30 AM

I prefer the clutches either side of the companionway as they are further aft. If they are in the center of the boat it's likely you have to stand on the steps to operate them. For short handed sailing that's a bad set up. Aft lead vang is better, with a release each side of the companionway next to the clutches, again that's driven by short handed sailing (the J92 is perfect in that you can release the clutch whilst helming). For boats focused on fully crewed racing then it's usual to have the vang-man sat on the rail in the middle of the boat. It's generally fairly simple to modify the vang release and return it to standard if required for OD.

#759 Trevor B

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Posted 11 February 2011 - 03:25 PM

It's also nice to be able to run a mini dodger over the companion way when you're at sea, and you need the clutches off center for that.

#760 solosailor

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Posted 11 February 2011 - 05:05 PM

I talked with my sailmaker yesterday and he recommended tacking to the pole and shortening pole extension as wind increased. He said that is how many of the other J sprit boats handle the code 0 without problem. I do like the bomb-proof sprit you built though.

So he recommended tacking the Code-0 to the pole WITHOUT a bobstay? Good luck with that. Other "Js" I've seen have used a bobstay so shortening the pole extension as the wind builds would stiffen the pole but again, it will only be on center when the pole is fully extended, not the best solution. The pole will definitely flex a lot without a bobstay. Also, the sheeting angle with change quite a bit over 4+ feet of adjustment.

#761 FUNK

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Posted 11 February 2011 - 10:39 PM

Your best bet is to build a sail for 0 to 8 knts of wind that flys on the pole all the way out. You will have very little need for the sail unless you race point to point (this boat is ideal for it). In breeze over 8knts w/apparent angle higher than 65deg the boat won't need anything bigger than a jib to haul the mail.

#762 us7070

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Posted 12 February 2011 - 12:56 PM

i've sailed on a J/120 with a code 0 that goes on a full-extension pole.

the pole is long enough, that the bobstay really isn't at a great angle for holding the pole tip down.

the thing scares me a bit offshore, as i am afraid the pole might break.

the 111 is probably a stiffer boat, but the 120 is reasonably stiff, and that huge sail can lay the boat over pretty easily if you're not on the ball...

#763 us7070

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Posted 12 February 2011 - 01:00 PM

also..., the AW is forward enough, that i doubt being off-center a bit will matter much in terms of a difference tack-to-tack.

i do think having a variable pole length might be a PITA, and i'm not sure how a bobstay would work in that setup...

#764 hermetic

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Posted 13 February 2011 - 12:20 PM

Posted Image

Posted Image


A C0 is essentially a light to medium air sail, if you're laying the boat down with it - it's time to check the sail choice chart and make a change.

The above photo's demonstrate the real problem - masthead chute, maybe 20 kts, big bend on prod = horrible (and slow) shape.

I cannot believe that the people at Hall can't come up with a fix for that.

#765 solosailor

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Posted 13 February 2011 - 04:17 PM

The above photo's demonstrate the real problem - masthead chute, maybe 20 kts, big bend on prod = horrible (and slow) shape.

I cannot believe that the people at Hall can't come up with a fix for that.

Well I just went through the 100s of shots taken by H2OShots when the boat was in 20-25k of steady breeze. This is the most flex I can find in any photos and it sure doesn't show to much sign of flex. If you want to see flex, ride and Antrim 27 in a Bay blow..... the bowsprit looks like the end of a hockey stick!

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#766 hermetic

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Posted 13 February 2011 - 07:07 PM

The above photo's demonstrate the real problem - masthead chute, maybe 20 kts, big bend on prod = horrible (and slow) shape.

I cannot believe that the people at Hall can't come up with a fix for that.

Well I just went through the 100s of shots taken by H2OShots when the boat was in 20-25k of steady breeze. This is the most flex I can find in any photos and it sure doesn't show to much sign of flex. If you want to see flex, ride and Antrim 27 in a Bay blow..... the bowsprit looks like the end of a hockey stick!



Radically different halyard tensions - is the blue chute fully hoisted?

#767 Furkolkjaaf

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Posted 13 February 2011 - 07:59 PM


The above photo's demonstrate the real problem - masthead chute, maybe 20 kts, big bend on prod = horrible (and slow) shape.

I cannot believe that the people at Hall can't come up with a fix for that.

Well I just went through the 100s of shots taken by H2OShots when the boat was in 20-25k of steady breeze. This is the most flex I can find in any photos and it sure doesn't show to much sign of flex. If you want to see flex, ride and Antrim 27 in a Bay blow..... the bowsprit looks like the end of a hockey stick!



Radically different halyard tensions - is the blue chute fully hoisted?

Does this matter at all ? With a normal gennaker (luff length so much longer than the straight line between mast top and bowsprit tip) I see halyard tension having little or no influence...

#768 Cabady

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Posted 13 February 2011 - 08:31 PM



The above photo's demonstrate the real problem - masthead chute, maybe 20 kts, big bend on prod = horrible (and slow) shape.

I cannot believe that the people at Hall can't come up with a fix for that.

Well I just went through the 100s of shots taken by H2OShots when the boat was in 20-25k of steady breeze. This is the most flex I can find in any photos and it sure doesn't show to much sign of flex. If you want to see flex, ride and Antrim 27 in a Bay blow..... the bowsprit looks like the end of a hockey stick!



Radically different halyard tensions - is the blue chute fully hoisted?

Does this matter at all ? With a normal gennaker (luff length so much longer than the straight line between mast top and bowsprit tip) I see halyard tension having little or no influence...


The boats are on different angles to the wind.

#769 hermetic

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Posted 13 February 2011 - 10:31 PM



The above photo's demonstrate the real problem - masthead chute, maybe 20 kts, big bend on prod = horrible (and slow) shape.

I cannot believe that the people at Hall can't come up with a fix for that.

Well I just went through the 100s of shots taken by H2OShots when the boat was in 20-25k of steady breeze. This is the most flex I can find in any photos and it sure doesn't show to much sign of flex. If you want to see flex, ride and Antrim 27 in a Bay blow..... the bowsprit looks like the end of a hockey stick!



Radically different halyard tensions - is the blue chute fully hoisted?

Does this matter at all ? With a normal gennaker (luff length so much longer than the straight line between mast top and bowsprit tip) I see halyard tension having little or no influence...

To expand a little on Cabady's reply, when going deep - like as far downwind as your speed guage will let you - you actually want soft luff tension when it's windy. But usually this is accomplished by easing the tack line. When reaching, or when using a C0, you want a very tight luff - max the halyard and crank on the backstay. You treat the asail more like a jib.

The bend-o-prod makes the latter difficult and kills the design shape of the sail. Again, this is probably not a big deal in OD - since everyone will be bending - but outside of OD, it's not good.

#770 JL92S

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Posted 13 February 2011 - 10:57 PM

do hall make the prod?

#771 ragbag

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Posted 14 February 2011 - 01:40 AM

Radically different halyard tensions - is the blue chute fully hoisted?


Yes.

#772 goblew

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Posted 14 February 2011 - 01:41 AM

I talked with my sailmaker yesterday and he recommended tacking to the pole and shortening pole extension as wind increased. He said that is how many of the other J sprit boats handle the code 0 without problem. I do like the bomb-proof sprit you built though.

So he recommended tacking the Code-0 to the pole WITHOUT a bobstay? Good luck with that. Other "Js" I've seen have used a bobstay so shortening the pole extension as the wind builds would stiffen the pole but again, it will only be on center when the pole is fully extended, not the best solution. The pole will definitely flex a lot without a bobstay. Also, the sheeting angle with change quite a bit over 4+ feet of adjustment.

yeah, that's my understanding. deal with the sheeting angle usuing tweakers. He emphasized the C0 is a light/moderate wind sail <15. the guy has built a ton of sails and is on his fourth set of J111sails. Thinking about the geometry of a bobstay on the sprit in a breeze really doesn't convince me it's that much better. i think your setup is indisputable.

#773 NoStrings

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Posted 22 February 2011 - 03:41 AM

Many many years ago, my kid would ask me these dumbass questions: "Dad, who would win a fight between a great white shark and a grizzly bear?"

I could never answer the question to his satisfaction.

So, who would win a fight between a J-111 and a 1D35?

#774 Jim Z

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Posted 22 February 2011 - 05:19 AM

Just to keep things rolling...a couple of updates for the west coast J-111 contingent...

1) Rag Bag's Hull #4, INVISIBLE HAND, will be on display (in her "Cabo Race" trim...sweet) at "Boat Fest" in Marina Village, Alameda CA 24-27 Feb. (Sail Ca. Dock).

2) Hull #17 is out of the barn and getting her underside dolled up at International Marine in Rhode Island. She should be arriving in SF early in March for final commissioning and sailing in early April. If all stays according to plan; she will be at Strictly Sail in Jack London Square 14 - 17 April at the Sail California dock at the show.

#775 EWS

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Posted 22 February 2011 - 05:20 AM

Many many years ago, my kid would ask me these dumbass questions: "Dad, who would win a fight between a great white shark and a grizzly bear?"

I could never answer the question to his satisfaction.

So, who would win a fight between a J-111 and a 1D35?


It would be the 1D35 Turbo.....few days and it will all make sense

#776 ragbag

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Posted 22 February 2011 - 06:21 AM


Many many years ago, my kid would ask me these dumbass questions: "Dad, who would win a fight between a great white shark and a grizzly bear?"

I could never answer the question to his satisfaction.

So, who would win a fight between a J-111 and a 1D35?


It would be the 1D35 Turbo.....few days and it will all make sense


Not in our experience thus far.

#777 solosailor

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Posted 22 February 2011 - 07:41 PM

So, who would win a fight between a J-111 and a 1D35?

"There's a real big gap between getting your ass kicked and having a dancing, singing sprite fool you with trickery and then strike your throat before you even know you're in a fight"

#778 solosailor

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Posted 22 February 2011 - 08:20 PM

It would be the 1D35 Turbo.....few days and it will all make sense

What is happening in a few days?

#779 NoStrings

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Posted 22 February 2011 - 10:33 PM

So, who would win a fight between a J-111 and a 1D35?

"There's a real big gap between getting your ass kicked and having a dancing, singing sprite fool you with trickery and then strike your throat before you even know you're in a fight"


Hey G,
Exactly how much time do you spend watching chick flicks?

#780 solosailor

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Posted 23 February 2011 - 03:23 AM

Pot calling the keddle black, no?

#781 I'm War Dog's Ghost

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Posted 23 February 2011 - 06:46 PM

NS it was no fight........ more like an bothersome kid selling chickletts on the streeet and scratching the paint on a new car!!

#782 pogen

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Posted 23 February 2011 - 08:00 PM

War Dog2?

Is the world big enough for two War Dogs?

Thanks for letting me have a look around the other day -- very nice boat.

#783 NoStrings

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Posted 24 February 2011 - 12:59 AM

Pot calling the keddle black, no?


Oh no amigo, not me. I had to look that one up on Google.

#784 Jim Z

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Posted 24 February 2011 - 10:51 AM

It would be the 1D35 Turbo.....few days and it will all make sense

What is happening in a few days?

Is this the 1D35 Turbo EWS is eluding to? The story is featured on the SA home page this AM. Cool project...

https://picasaweb.google.com/111226466348003368663/Feb212011?authkey=Gv1sRgCIjpjLvs_JuIkgE&feat=email#

But didn't the J111 KONTIKI 5 beat the 1D35 REVOLUTION in Key West (albeit the 111 had a 42 vs the 1D's 36 PHRF)this year?

Rag Bag's 111 is rating 36 here in SF...not sure what a 1D35's PHRF is here...

#785 Monster Mash

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Posted 24 February 2011 - 11:38 AM


It would be the 1D35 Turbo.....few days and it will all make sense

What is happening in a few days?

Is this the 1D35 Turbo EWS is eluding to? The story is featured on the SA home page this AM. Cool project...

https://picasaweb.go...kgE&feat=email#

But didn't the J111 KONTIKI 5 beat the 1D35 REVOLUTION in Key West (albeit the 111 had a 42 vs the 1D's 36 PHRF)this year?

Rag Bag's 111 is rating 36 here in SF...not sure what a 1D35's PHRF is here...


According to norcal phrf

36 with sym
42 with assy

#786 EWS

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Posted 24 February 2011 - 02:46 PM


It would be the 1D35 Turbo.....few days and it will all make sense

What is happening in a few days?

Is this the 1D35 Turbo EWS is eluding to? The story is featured on the SA home page this AM. Cool project...

https://picasaweb.google.com/111226466348003368663/Feb212011?authkey=Gv1sRgCIjpjLvs_JuIkgE&feat=email#

But didn't the J111 KONTIKI 5 beat the 1D35 REVOLUTION in Key West (albeit the 111 had a 42 vs the 1D's 36 PHRF)this year?

Rag Bag's 111 is rating 36 here in SF...not sure what a 1D35's PHRF is here...


That's the boat I was refering to. Obviously not much 1d35 in it anymore.

#787 ragbag

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Posted 24 February 2011 - 03:45 PM



It would be the 1D35 Turbo.....few days and it will all make sense

What is happening in a few days?

Is this the 1D35 Turbo EWS is eluding to? The story is featured on the SA home page this AM. Cool project...

https://picasaweb.go...kgE&feat=email#

But didn't the J111 KONTIKI 5 beat the 1D35 REVOLUTION in Key West (albeit the 111 had a 42 vs the 1D's 36 PHRF)this year?

Rag Bag's 111 is rating 36 here in SF...not sure what a 1D35's PHRF is here...


According to norcal phrf

36 with sym
42 with assy


There were two 1D35s in last weekend Corinthian Midwinters, one rated 36 (standard) and one rated 21. Neither one hung with the 111 on elapsed time, and we were sailing no where near our race potential for various reasons. I don't know what mods the 21 rated boat had.

#788 EWS

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Posted 24 February 2011 - 03:47 PM

the boat has been rated at 33/27/18 in Socal without the square top main & 30/24/12 with the square top. Didn't mean to derail the J/111 thread so please continue on

#789 EWS

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Posted 24 February 2011 - 03:48 PM




It would be the 1D35 Turbo.....few days and it will all make sense

What is happening in a few days?

Is this the 1D35 Turbo EWS is eluding to? The story is featured on the SA home page this AM. Cool project...

https://picasaweb.go...kgE&feat=email#

But didn't the J111 KONTIKI 5 beat the 1D35 REVOLUTION in Key West (albeit the 111 had a 42 vs the 1D's 36 PHRF)this year?

Rag Bag's 111 is rating 36 here in SF...not sure what a 1D35's PHRF is here...


According to norcal phrf

36 with sym
42 with assy


There were two 1D35s in last weekend Corintian Midwinters, one rated 36 (standard) and one rated 21. Neither one hung with the 111 on elapsed time, and we were sailing no where near our race potential for various reasons. I don't know what mods the 21 rated boat had.


The 21 should be the old Double Trouble. Square top main but with a shorter prod and OD ISP's

#790 ducky

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Posted 24 February 2011 - 05:36 PM




It would be the 1D35 Turbo.....few days and it will all make sense

What is happening in a few days?

Is this the 1D35 Turbo EWS is eluding to? The story is featured on the SA home page this AM. Cool project...

https://picasaweb.go...kgE&feat=email#

But didn't the J111 KONTIKI 5 beat the 1D35 REVOLUTION in Key West (albeit the 111 had a 42 vs the 1D's 36 PHRF)this year?

Rag Bag's 111 is rating 36 here in SF...not sure what a 1D35's PHRF is here...


According to norcal phrf

36 with sym
42 with assy


There were two 1D35s in last weekend Corinthian Midwinters, one rated 36 (standard) and one rated 21. Neither one hung with the 111 on elapsed time, and we were sailing no where near our race potential for various reasons. I don't know what mods the 21 rated boat had.

so maybe the 111 should rate between 18-27? :P or are you guys just that fast.

#791 ragbag

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Posted 24 February 2011 - 06:31 PM

so maybe the 111 should rate between 18-27? :P or are you guys just that fast.


The 1D35s vary greatly in performance depending who sails them.

#792 solosailor

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Posted 25 February 2011 - 06:57 PM

Not up to speed yet as our 5th and 4th place in division showed.

#793 opusone

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Posted 28 February 2011 - 05:07 PM

Ragbag -

When do you bring the boat down to Newport Beach or are you going to leave her in Long Beach before the race.

Cheers,

opusone

#794 ragbag

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Posted 28 February 2011 - 10:32 PM

Ragbag -

When do you bring the boat down to Newport Beach or are you going to leave her in Long Beach before the race.

Cheers,

opusone


Boat is going down to Newport, don't know yet exactly when, depends on work still in progress and weather window.

#795 sclero

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Posted 28 February 2011 - 11:40 PM

If you don't mind sharing, what work are you having done? I saw the picture of the sprit that you posted earlier, but I am interested to know what has already broke or wasn't there that you felt you needed.


Ragbag -

When do you bring the boat down to Newport Beach or are you going to leave her in Long Beach before the race.

Cheers,

opusone


Boat is going down to Newport, don't know yet exactly when, depends on work still in progress and weather window.



#796 ragbag

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Posted 01 March 2011 - 01:01 AM

If you don't mind sharing, what work are you having done? I saw the picture of the sprit that you posted earlier, but I am interested to know what has already broke or wasn't there that you felt you needed.


Nothing in particular, just a laundry list of items getting the boat ocean-ready and meeting all the requirements for race entry has been a very significant undertaking for a boat clean from the factory with so little time to get it all done. I am fortunate to have a ton of very capable assistance, or it wouldn't be happening. We heard the San Diego-based J/111 boat was going to enter the Cabo race at first, but then decided it was just too much work to get ready which we can sure relate to.

#797 opusone

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Posted 01 March 2011 - 08:02 PM


Ragbag -

When do you bring the boat down to Newport Beach or are you going to leave her in Long Beach before the race.

Cheers,

opusone


Boat is going down to Newport, don't know yet exactly when, depends on work still in progress and weather window.


Any chance a Dark N' Stormy could persuade you for a quick tour???

Cheers,

opusone

#798 solosailor

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Posted 02 March 2011 - 12:44 AM

Any chance a Dark N' Stormy could persuade you for a quick tour???

That will likely be needed after the delivery.......

#799 Lee G

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Posted 03 March 2011 - 07:56 PM

What is the deal with Block Island Race Week? Is an OD start expected or will they be racing IRC?

#800 jackolantern

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Posted 03 March 2011 - 09:13 PM

I'm betting J/Boats at least ASKS the owners to sail PHRF for the same reason Kontiki V sailed PHRF at KWRW; they don't want the boat potentially getting spanked under IRC at a national event which could possibly slow down sales.




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