539 replies to this topic

[Jim Donovan]

So I hear that hull No 2 is nearly finished and came out better than No 1?
I'd really like to see some photos

[Forza]

So how can ORC be convinced to adopt square top mainsails Jim? I am sure the class would benefit given current race boats sail plan.

[Jim Donovan]

So how can ORC be convinced to adopt square top mainsails Jim? I am sure the class would benefit given current race boats sail plan.

Rule stability is usually a good thing for classes, and dramatic changes should be carefully considered.

In my opinion allowing square-top mainsails is a matter for the yacht owners to debate; there is a definite financial impact of this change.
If the yacht owner's want sqaure top mainsails for the boats, they can go as a group to ORC and most likely obtain a modification to the rule.

The ORC has been very proactive in working to improve this rule, primarily through better definition and some improvements that simply make good sense.
We have all dealt with the various handicap rules that change anually, often for no obvious reason or need; this can drive participants away.
What I have seen in the GP 26 rule is excellent administration making limited changes, including intelligent discussion before any change has been adopted.


This morning I have been discussing how we can expand the US GP 26 Assoc. to include the 2 or 3 dozen GP 26s that exist around the world.
In the near future we should have this international owners assoc. set up to allow interaction between the owners, builders and designers that will provide the forum to discuss changes such as square top mainsails.

Growth of the GP 26 class has been steady even through the global financial crisis; I believe this is generated purely by the excellence of the boat defined by the rule - the GP 26 is simply a great sailboat.

[trenace]

$50K in New York... hurts that I don't have it presently, if I did that seems the best choice for me I could make. That's a killer deal.

[trenace]

I missed seeing the website posted, if it has been:

http://wraceboats.com/

[windseekeryachts]

So she is ready to go.
detailed inside and outside pics coming soon...

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[windseekeryachts]

So I hear that hull No 2 is nearly finished and came out better than No 1?
I'd really like to see some photos

Hi Jim here they are...

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[Heriberto]

Wow. Wowee wow wow.

That's the WOW factor baby!

[Ryley]

That is crazy sexy

[fdsailor]

Still 50K Euros?

[windseekeryachts]

Still 50K Euros?

No. Not 50,000eur.
This boat has some options but 50k eur can get you the extras and a set of sails.
Standart boat 50,000 usd east coast usa delivered for a limited time. 2 boat order filled together.
40,000 eur rest of the world.

[fdsailor]

Ha! Even better!

[OldSeadog]

Beautiful work, sexy boat. Just looking at her gives me a rise in my Levis!

[Forza]

Are you intending building a lift keel version ? Would give the Esse 850 some competition, commercially and on the water.
Finish looks great.

[windseekeryachts]

Are you intending building a lift keel version ? Would give the Esse 850 some competition, commercially and on the water.
Finish looks great.

We currently do not have a plan for lift keel.
The structure inside will add weight. The boat is designed to be one of the top competitors in Gp26 class racing so it is very light.

[Forza]

Surely a keel case that passes through to deck head would only weigh approx 8 ~10 kg. The existing keel floor structure could be reduced to (in part ?) compensate.

[Ryley]

Forza,
there's no provision in the GP26 class for a lifting keel. However, the keel does come off fairly easily. At some point, maybe Jim Donovan will produce a modified design with a lifting keel, but not while trying to grow the class.

If you're looking for a 25 or 26 foot boat with a lifting keel, the Dart or an Elliott 770 are right up your alley.

[Forza]

The GP 26 Rule does not preclude lifting keels ~ I would think the rule intent is that the yacht is sailed with keel in fixed max draft position.
As the GP 26 does accommodate road trailerable possibility I would think that commercial consideration and engineering the keel specs ( given carbon is allowed ) would be a logical option.
Removing and installing a keel requires lifting equipment(crane), cradle etc ~ not so straight forward to many people.

[Steam Flyer]

Forza,
there's no provision in the GP26 class for a lifting keel. However, the keel does come off fairly easily. At some point, maybe Jim Donovan will produce a modified design with a lifting keel, but not while trying to grow the class.

If you're looking for a 25 or 26 foot boat with a lifting keel, the Dart or an Elliott 770 are right up your alley.

Yeah but if you're looking for a 26 foot lifting-keel boat that is THAT COOL and also designed/built from the gitgo to sail offshore then you're out of luck.

Kind of a shame really

FB- Doug

[Forza]

I personally have a preference for fixed keel vs a lift keel assembly.
My reasoning for the lift keel option is based on yachts like the Esse 850 and FT 10. I would think the lift keel option may assist the GP 26 to increase in fleet size.
I am sure a properly engineered keel fin and case structure would be no heavier than a keel (fin) bolt assembly at fairbody.

[OldSeadog]

Great new Gallery of photos on the
W Race Boats site.
Here is the link

http://www.wraceboat...&id=7&Itemid=20

[Ryley]

The GP 26 Rule does not preclude lifting keels ~ I would think the rule intent is that the yacht is sailed with keel in fixed max draft position.
As the GP 26 does accommodate road trailerable possibility I would think that commercial consideration and engineering the keel specs ( given carbon is allowed ) would be a logical option.
Removing and installing a keel requires lifting equipment(crane), cradle etc ~ not so straight forward to many people.

I took this section to mean that they were precluded:

202 Appendages
202.1 Except for a single rudder located aft of the keel, no other moveable appendages are permitted.

However, the intent of that rule was to rule out canting keels I believe, so I suppose you could build a lifting keel structure if the keel is fixed in the down position when racing. I think part of the problem is that to date no one has succeeded in building a GP26 that is close to the minimum weight of 1450 KG. Kevin has been working hard on predicting and minimizing panel weights etc and it will be interesting to see how close he is. Adding the structures to carry a lifting keel, even if you *can* use CF, is still not trivial.

[_DC_]

Err.. Ryley,I think the Min weight is 1000kg not 1450 and most if not all boats are at or very near this. Lift keels on Melges, sb3s etc. are all considered fixed appendages as they cant be moved while sailing.
I too, love the idea of a ramp launchable gp26, or at least one that could easily dropped down on a trailer, but not at cost of performance. Also one would have to have a lifting rudder. The M32 system looks quite heavy.

[Forza]

A cassette (and case ~ hull to cockpit sole) as part of rudder assembly would allow easy installation, probably 2 ~ 3 kg additional weight over typical shaft tube assbly.

[Ryley]

Err.. Ryley,I think the Min weight is 1000kg not 1450 and most if not all boats are at or very near this. Lift keels on Melges, sb3s etc. are all considered fixed appendages as they cant be moved while sailing.
I too, love the idea of a ramp launchable gp26, or at least one that could easily dropped down on a trailer, but not at cost of performance. Also one would have to have a lifting rudder. The M32 system looks quite heavy.

yep, misread the rule again - since it splits keel weight from 'hull weight.' but you are of course right.

[Ryley]

A cassette (and case ~ hull to cockpit sole) as part of rudder assembly would allow easy installation, probably 2 ~ 3 kg additional weight over typical shaft tube assbly.

Again, the Elliott 770, U20, A27, Left Coast Dart, and a host of other boats already meet your requirement without taking a perfectly good design and bastardizing it. If you want an offshore performance boat with a lifting keel, get a Columbia 30.

[Forza]

None of the boats you list are a GP 26. It is not a consideration to bastardize a design, simply broaden the contenders and remain in class rules.
I clearly remember a quarter ton yacht designed by Laurie Davidson that had a lift keel and cassette rudder, I don't think the yacht was compromised.
The question is then, can a the boat be designed to the rules and conform to optimum engineering / sailing constraints ? I think so.

[Heriberto]

None of the boats you list are a GP 26. It is not a consideration to bastardize a design, simply broaden the contenders and remain in class rules.
I clearly remember a quarter ton yacht designed by Laurie Davidson that had a lift keel and cassette rudder, I don't think the yacht was compromised.
The question is then, can a the boat be designed to the rules and conform to optimum engineering / sailing constraints ? I think so.

If you think so, then do it.

[Forza]

Already have done so on other yachts.

[windseekeryachts]

Received the TCC from IRC 1.071

[Kevin Farrar]

On the lifting keel issue.
The GP 26 class rule allows a "recess" not greater than 20 liters in volume which is only to be used to attach the keel.
Webster's Dictionary states that a "recess" is an "indentation" not a hole.
IMHO by definition at this time a lift keel is not an option.
Kevin

[Jim Donovan]

On the lifting keel issue.
The GP 26 class rule allows a "recess" not greater than 20 liters in volume which is only to be used to attach the keel.
Webster's Dictionary states that a "recess" is an "indentation" not a hole.
IMHO by definition at this time a lift keel is not an option.
Kevin

You could probably do a open top keel box similar to what I have in my 20 footer, although the keel gets bolted down so lifting is not something tha could happen "on the fly".
 Prep 2.jpg   123.09K   124 downloads

[windseekeryachts]

We started Hull# 3.
Lifting keel seems possible with Jim's mail above, (probably with a minimal price tag.)
Any interest for lifting keel 26 footer or GP26.

[quasi-expert]

On the lifting keel issue.
The GP 26 class rule allows a "recess" not greater than 20 liters in volume which is only to be used to attach the keel.
Webster's Dictionary states that a "recess" is an "indentation" not a hole.
IMHO by definition at this time a lift keel is not an option.
Kevin

You could probably do a open top keel box similar to what I have in my 20 footer, although the keel gets bolted down so lifting is not something tha could happen "on the fly".
 Prep 2.jpg   123.09K   124 downloads

Do you plan to bolt the keel down or just rely on gravity? the boat looks really nice, not only the hull, but also the structure, nice and clean.

[Team WIld]

Have not read the full thread yet so my comment may well be out of context, however many good designs have lifting keels, Adams 13, Inglis 47 (Wild thing has probably the most famous photo ever!!), I know these boats a alot bigger, however works for them and never compromised the design. They both had keel bolts that transversed through casette and keel in the keel locked down position. Sorry if out of context:rolleyes:

[_DC_]

sounds great. I would imagine it would need a bit of redesign, non raked fin further back in the boat, lifting rudder, etc.
I think a competitive GP with this wouldn't be a problem. Personally, I would insist on having the thing bolted down real solid!

[Steam Flyer]

... ...
Any interest for lifting keel 26 footer or GP26.

Is that a question? If so the answer is YES

I have already exchanged a few brief emails with Jim on the subject.

FB- Doug

[Jim Donovan]

sounds great. I would imagine it would need a bit of redesign, non raked fin further back in the boat, lifting rudder, etc.
I think a competitive GP with this wouldn't be a problem. Personally, I would insist on having the thing bolted down real solid!

The keel top defintely gets bolted down to the framing.
This would not be your "crank it up while sailing" arrangement.

[windseekeryachts]

sounds great. I would imagine it would need a bit of redesign, non raked fin further back in the boat, lifting rudder, etc.
I think a competitive GP with this wouldn't be a problem. Personally, I would insist on having the thing bolted down real solid!

yes some redesign on keel and rudder (probably transom hung). Resulting some compromise in performance and non complience gp26 rules, but still a hi performance boat.

[StayinStrewn]

I know it would be costly, but what about the Melges 32 style rudder that drops in, but it's still mounted in the cockpit??

[windseekeryachts]

[quote name='StayinStrewn' timestamp='1332602410' post='3641936'
I know it would be costly, but what about the Melges 32 style rudder that drops in, but it's still mounted in the cockpit??
[/quote]
Possible and better in 2 ways same main sheet arrangement and better rudder control. Lest see who comes up with checkbook.

[TOTALXS]

A far as the inboard and lift up rudder goes, the old SR line had a simple bolt down cassette than the VARA system (both by Glenn Henderson, by the way) used in the Melges 32 and more. The VARA system is a lot more convenient but seems more expensive to produce. As the keel ends up bolted down, having the rudder cassette bolt down as well does not seem like a problem. The question then becomes, is the resulting boat still a GP26 legal boat?

[windseekeryachts]

A far as the inboard and lift up rudder goes, the old SR line had a simple bolt down cassette than the VARA system (both by Glenn Henderson, by the way) used in the Melges 32 and more. The VARA system is a lot more convenient but seems more expensive to produce. As the keel ends up bolted down, having the rudder cassette bolt down as well does not seem like a problem. The question then becomes, is the resulting boat still a GP26 legal boat?

Keel modification does not comply with class rules. As seen in a couple of earlier posts not a gp 26 but still a hi perfirmance boat.

[quasi-expert]

A far as the inboard and lift up rudder goes, the old SR line had a simple bolt down cassette than the VARA system (both by Glenn Henderson, by the way) used in the Melges 32 and more. The VARA system is a lot more convenient but seems more expensive to produce. As the keel ends up bolted down, having the rudder cassette bolt down as well does not seem like a problem. The question then becomes, is the resulting boat still a GP26 legal boat?

I have a sort of VARA system and I have to say it is only convenient when done everything is fully sorted out. Otherwise it is a major PITA. I prefer the idea of a complete rudder box (similar to a lifting keel with a top plate)

[TOTALXS]

Windseeker, I went back and read what I missed - the recess restriction. Too bad, I would think that it would open the class up to a few more if the keel could be lifted for trailering and if you have depth restrictions.

Quasi-expert, we did twin rudder box style cassettes that have a bolt down top plates on our i550. The next i550 will be a single inboard done the same way. Not overly convenient, but still better than that outboard rudder, at least in my opinion.

[Jim Donovan]

A far as the inboard and lift up rudder goes, the old SR line had a simple bolt down cassette than the VARA system (both by Glenn Henderson, by the way) used in the Melges 32 and more. The VARA system is a lot more convenient but seems more expensive to produce. As the keel ends up bolted down, having the rudder cassette bolt down as well does not seem like a problem. The question then becomes, is the resulting boat still a GP26 legal boat?

Keel modification does not comply with class rules. As seen in a couple of earlier posts not a gp 26 but still a hi perfirmance boat.

I believe it is possible to have a lifting keel arrangement that is also class legal.

The keel recess volume rule in the class rules isn't particularly clear as far defining a "recess", but a small rectangular opening with a lid would qualify as a recess in my estimation.
In any case, the class has been quite acceptable to defining the rules to make the yachts more sensible and attractive to more owners.
I would expect a rule modification proposal that specifically allows lifting keel arrangements would be easily accepted.

For a lifting rudder; the bolt-down cassette that allows the rudder to be located per the original design would be my favorite.

[Forza]

I agree with your comments. The class would benefit as well as boat owners.

[windseekeryachts]

Wraceboats GP26 finished 1st in first sportboat race in Istanbul in a fleet of Melges24, Farr25, delphia 24 and a couple of Platu25s, and Beneteau 7.5s under SMS rating

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•  gp26march31_2.JPG   105.94K   144 downloads
•  sportsboat_CA_03.jpg   14.78K   134 downloads

[ronin64]

Hi all,
I'm from Italy.
New to this forum and very interested in GP26 Rule. I started to design a Gp26 and may be I will realize it beginning newt summer if possible.
I think that the possibility of a lifting keel only for transport would be very interesting. With very little change in the design a great advantage.
Could You tell me, actually, how is transported a GP 26? With the keel carefullied laid down on the trailer?
Don't You think this change possible?

Thanks
Giulio

[windseekeryachts]

Hi all,
I'm from Italy.
New to this forum and very interested in GP26 Rule. I started to design a Gp26 and may be I will realize it beginning newt summer if possible.
I think that the possibility of a lifting keel only for transport would be very interesting. With very little change in the design a great advantage.
Could You tell me, actually, how is transported a GP 26? With the keel carefullied laid down on the trailer?
Don't You think this change possible?

Thanks
Giulio

Hi Giulio,
Current design allows the keel to be taken out occasionally for transport or other purposes although this would not be something you want to do everyweekend. Small keelboats like platu25 have special trailers that take them with keel on. I am sure you can find some pics on web.
Regards

[williwaw]

Wraceboats GP26 finished 1st in first sportboat race in Istanbul in a fleet of Melges24, Farr25, delphia 24 and a couple of Platu25s, and Beneteau 7.5s under SMS rating

Can you tell us a bit more in performance differences between your boat and the Melges and the Farr 25

[Timmys_Trick_Turkey]

Brooks Dees GP26 .... on the left coast....

Not to hijack, but any pictures of this boat?

video:

wtf, the transom shapes in the Donovan 26 video, are totally different to the Donovan 26 hull mold.....

[TOTALXS]

To above: You are looking at different boats - one is Donovan, the one above in the video is by Dees.

[Kevin Farrar]

Hi TTT,
The boat in the videos you posted are of the Brooks Dees designed and built GP26 "Salt Peanuts" sailing in San Francisco. You are correct that the transom shapes are quite different.
Kevin

[windseekeryachts]

Wraceboats GP26 finished 1st in first sportboat race in Istanbul in a fleet of Melges24, Farr25, delphia 24 and a couple of Platu25s, and Beneteau 7.5s under SMS rating

Can you tell us a bit more in performance differences between your boat and the Melges and the Farr 25

Hi Williwaw,
Please send me a personal mail I can explain.
Best regards

[windseekeryachts]

Hull2 finally arrived in Hong Kong.
Proud Owners Jim and Ruth Daly at yacht club with boat on cradle.

Few more days to go before she hits water.

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[stealth]

Hull2 finally arrived in Hong Kong.
Proud Owners Jim and Ruth Daly at yacht club with boat on cradle.

Few more days to go before she hits water.

How much is the shipping costs from Turkey to Hong Kong? I have been struggling to find a good shipping deal from Europe to Singapore for a yacht same size.

[agent X]

New GP26 arrived in Hong Kong today - Windseeker / Donovan.

[windseekeryachts]

Hull2 finally arrived in Hong Kong.
Proud Owners Jim and Ruth Daly at yacht club with boat on cradle.

Few more days to go before she hits water.

How much is the shipping costs from Turkey to Hong Kong? I have been struggling to find a good shipping deal from Europe to Singapore for a yacht same size.

Hi Stealth, I found a quote for 1,000 USD excluding the local transfer and crane and loading, securing etc here at the yard which I thought was a very good deal.
The owner I think had an even better quote and made his own agreement.

[Jim Donovan]

Hull2 finally arrived in Hong Kong.
Proud Owners Jim and Ruth Daly at yacht club with boat on cradle.

Few more days to go before she hits water.

FANTASTIC to see the boat arrived in HK - keep us posted on your progress and expected launch date!

Jim

[stealth]

Hull2 finally arrived in Hong Kong.
Proud Owners Jim and Ruth Daly at yacht club with boat on cradle.

Few more days to go before she hits water.

How much is the shipping costs from Turkey to Hong Kong? I have been struggling to find a good shipping deal from Europe to Singapore for a yacht same size.

Hi Stealth, I found a quote for 1,000 USD excluding the local transfer and crane and loading, securing etc here at the yard which I thought was a very good deal.
The owner I think had an even better quote and made his own agreement.

Could you PM me the contact you found. Best quote I have had till now for shipping a 28 Ft yacht from Denmark to Singapore are USD 15.000 which I see as Robbery.

[Bow Monkey]

In all honesty, I think the class shot itself in the nuts by not requiring a lifting keel. A 26' sporty doesn't need a serious tow rig when it sits down low. Tow that same boat on a trailer with the keel at max depth, and it's a whole new ball game.

[Pelle]

Hull2 finally arrived in Hong Kong.
Proud Owners Jim and Ruth Daly at yacht club with boat on cradle.

Few more days to go before she hits water.

How much is the shipping costs from Turkey to Hong Kong? I have been struggling to find a good shipping deal from Europe to Singapore for a yacht same size.

Hi Stealth, I found a quote for 1,000 USD excluding the local transfer and crane and loading, securing etc here at the yard which I thought was a very good deal.
The owner I think had an even better quote and made his own agreement.

Could you PM me the contact you found. Best quote I have had till now for shipping a 28 Ft yacht from Denmark to Singapore are USD 15.000 which I see as Robbery.

Anything that does not fit into a 40' container is a completely different ballgame when it comes to shipping....in my experience the shipping cost increases by a factor of at least 5 as soon the goods does not fit into a normal box....robbery or not it is a fact of life

[windseekeryachts]

Here is Jim & Ruth Daly's new boat shortly after arrival at the yard in Hong Kong; keel, rudder, stanchions & pulpits installed.
They glued the 2 piece mast together as Jim (owner Jim Daly not Designer Jim Donovan) describes, ".... the boat has arrived safely to HK and this is just a follow up now that I have got a bit of time to sit at the computer and write you a note of thanks... We unpacked the two piece mast and glued it together using the resin supplied. The resin was well packed and labelled. The Pauger mast is a thing of beauty. They have produced a really superb finish and it went together perfectly . . . "

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•  hul2hk (Medium).JPG   247.57K   244 downloads

[Heriberto]

In all honesty, I think the class shot itself in the nuts by not requiring a lifting keel. A 26' sporty doesn't need a serious tow rig when it sits down low. Tow that same boat on a trailer with the keel at max depth, and it's a whole new ball game.

As Jim has pointed out, making a lifting keel arrangement (for launching and trailering), is doable, wouldn't add that much in weight, and would not be a performance hit (necessarily), but the rudder is a different matter. If you look at the existing GP26 boats, none I have seen have transom hung rudders and all of the rudders are nearly as deep as the keel, so you have to raise that or remove it for a lifting keel to make much sense.

Whoever comes up with a good, lightweight, cheap method of retracting a hull-mounted rudder is going to do sailing a big favor.

At least it isn't over-width....

[Jim Donovan]

In all honesty, I think the class shot itself in the nuts by not requiring a lifting keel. A 26' sporty doesn't need a serious tow rig when it sits down low. Tow that same boat on a trailer with the keel at max depth, and it's a whole new ball game.

As Jim has pointed out, making a lifting keel arrangement (for launching and trailering), is doable, wouldn't add that much in weight, and would not be a performance hit (necessarily), but the rudder is a different matter. If you look at the existing GP26 boats, none I have seen have transom hung rudders and all of the rudders are nearly as deep as the keel, so you have to raise that or remove it for a lifting keel to make much sense.

Whoever comes up with a good, lightweight, cheap method of retracting a hull-mounted rudder is going to do sailing a big favor.

At least it isn't over-width....

Having driven more miles than I care to remember towing this size (& larger) boats, I actually prefer the boat up high on the trailer.
You can see much better around the boat becaause it's up high which makes lane changes so much easier; and the hull is no where near the other cars.
Of course I've been in the middle of rush hour traffic in LA with someone trying to merge in behind my tow vehicle seemily oblivious to the 30 footer I was towing.
Somehow the idea that I was towing something large escaped them - I guess the dark blue topsides with white stripes camouflaged the boat?
Wait a second . . . that was your boat I was towing Herb!

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•  image001.png   137.02K   83 downloads

[The Mekon]

GP 26 Rapid Transit was towed from Sydney to Airlie Beach and back last year over 4000 km with no problems.  Rapid Transit Trailer Pic.jpg   397.13K   90 downloads

[TOTALXS]

I would think the reason a potential owner would want a lift keel and cassette rudder on one of these would be nothing but local docking and sailing conditions. When we had the SR25, we kept the rig up but trailer launched it every time we sailed her. We couldn't get into the only club that had a deep water crane set-up, even if we could have afforded it (we couldn't), so the choices were dry sail off the trailer or wet sail her. The SR25 used a winch system to drop the keel and about 6 nuts to lock her down. The Rudder was a metal cassette and took 6 machine screws to hold it down. It added twenty-five to thirty minutes (once we got the system down)to leaving the dock compared to the big cruiser or the folks that had lifts at their docks. About the same time it takes to trailer sail the F24. You do what it takes.

[SA Lurker]

Here is Jim & Ruth Daly's new boat shortly after arrival at the yard in Hong Kong; keel, rudder, stanchions & pulpits installed.

WSY-
I rather like the revised stern/pushpits on this boat, but am curious to know the reason why.
Enlighten us?

[windseekeryachts]

Here is Jim & Ruth Daly's new boat shortly after arrival at the yard in Hong Kong; keel, rudder, stanchions & pulpits installed.

WSY-
I rather like the revised stern/pushpits on this boat, but am curious to know the reason why.
Enlighten us?

Hi SA Lurker,
So we took your suggestion couple months ago and changed the design... joking...
but thanks for your attention to such detail in our thread.
Hull 1 on right has optional cut transom. The pushpit is intentionally touching the side wall of the cockpit Jim thought we will secure the side to pushpit with a pin to minimise the flexing. So far we did not needed this though.

Hull2 has standard transom. The original pushpit design for standart transom is produced.

If you like it, that is good....

[SA Lurker]

Here is Jim & Ruth Daly's new boat shortly after arrival at the yard in Hong Kong; keel, rudder, stanchions & pulpits installed.

WSY-
I rather like the revised stern/pushpits on this boat, but am curious to know the reason why.
Enlighten us?

Hi SA Lurker,
So we took your suggestion couple months ago and changed the design... joking...
but thanks for your attention to such detail in our thread.
Hull 1 on right has optional cut transom. The pushpit is intentionally touching the side wall of the cockpit Jim thought we will secure the side to pushpit with a pin to minimise the flexing. So far we did not needed this though.

Hull2 has standard transom. The original pushpit design for standart transom is produced.

If you like it, that is good....

Good indeed. Great boat, WSY!
Mr. Donovan's original intent was lost on me, but made sense once the fastening point was understood. Rather inelegant intersection IMO, however.
Any cost difference between the two transoms, or simply a matter of personal choice?

[Heriberto]

It isn't only the transom that is cut....

I imagine you would need a scupper there if you just closed the transom. So with that consideration, the stern rail arrangement is actually more elegant, IMO.

[Forza]

Boat looks great, hope you get a class going.

[knucklehead]

In all honesty, I think the class shot itself in the nuts by not requiring a lifting keel. A 26' sporty doesn't need a serious tow rig when it sits down low. Tow that same boat on a trailer with the keel at max depth, and it's a whole new ball game.

As Jim has pointed out, making a lifting keel arrangement (for launching and trailering), is doable, wouldn't add that much in weight, and would not be a performance hit (necessarily), but the rudder is a different matter. If you look at the existing GP26 boats, none I have seen have transom hung rudders and all of the rudders are nearly as deep as the keel, so you have to raise that or remove it for a lifting keel to make much sense.

Whoever comes up with a good, lightweight, cheap method of retracting a hull-mounted rudder is going to do sailing a big favor.

At least it isn't over-width....

Pull out 2 pins to remove the whole assembly. Five years of hard use from new, to date, no problems.
 SDC10003.JPG   216.56K   89 downloads  SDC10001.JPG   217.95K   81 downloads  SDC10005.JPG   273.99K   65 downloads

[windseekeryachts]

Here is Jim & Ruth Daly's new boat shortly after arrival at the yard in Hong Kong; keel, rudder, stanchions & pulpits installed.

WSY-
I rather like the revised stern/pushpits on this boat, but am curious to know the reason why.
Enlighten us?

Hi SA Lurker,
So we took your suggestion couple months ago and changed the design... joking...
but thanks for your attention to such detail in our thread.
Hull 1 on right has optional cut transom. The pushpit is intentionally touching the side wall of the cockpit Jim thought we will secure the side to pushpit with a pin to minimise the flexing. So far we did not needed this though.

Hull2 has standard transom. The original pushpit design for standart transom is produced.

If you like it, that is good....

Good indeed. Great boat, WSY!
Mr. Donovan's original intent was lost on me, but made sense once the fastening point was understood. Rather inelegant intersection IMO, however.
Any cost difference between the two transoms, or simply a matter of personal choice?

Cut Out transom option is priced €1,500.

[SA Lurker]

Here is Jim & Ruth Daly's new boat shortly after arrival at the yard in Hong Kong; keel, rudder, stanchions & pulpits installed.

WSY-
I rather like the revised stern/pushpits on this boat, but am curious to know the reason why.
Enlighten us?

Hi SA Lurker,
So we took your suggestion couple months ago and changed the design... joking...
but thanks for your attention to such detail in our thread.
Hull 1 on right has optional cut transom. The pushpit is intentionally touching the side wall of the cockpit Jim thought we will secure the side to pushpit with a pin to minimise the flexing. So far we did not needed this though.

Hull2 has standard transom. The original pushpit design for standart transom is produced.

If you like it, that is good....

Good indeed. Great boat, WSY!
Mr. Donovan's original intent was lost on me, but made sense once the fastening point was understood. Rather inelegant intersection IMO, however.
Any cost difference between the two transoms, or simply a matter of personal choice?

Cut Out transom option is priced €1,500.

JD- Other than aesthetic, is there a practical advantage to one transom configuration over the other?

[Jim Donovan]

JD- Other than aesthetic, is there a practical advantage to one transom configuration over the other?


The cut-out transom looks "racier", but it is actually slightly heavier than the more conventional cockpit style.
The more conventional style also give you a better "walkway" for the crew when the boat is knocked-down.

[SA Lurker]

JD- Other than aesthetic, is there a practical advantage to one transom configuration over the other?


The cut-out transom looks "racier", but it is actually slightly heavier than the more conventional cockpit style.
The more conventional style also give you a better "walkway" for the crew when the boat is knocked-down.

Does that translate into a "slightly heavier" bulb?

[Heriberto]

As Jim has pointed out, making a lifting keel arrangement (for launching and trailering), is doable, wouldn't add that much in weight, and would not be a performance hit (necessarily), but the rudder is a different matter. If you look at the existing GP26 boats, none I have seen have transom hung rudders and all of the rudders are nearly as deep as the keel, so you have to raise that or remove it for a lifting keel to make much sense.

Whoever comes up with a good, lightweight, cheap method of retracting a hull-mounted rudder is going to do sailing a big favor.

At least it isn't over-width....

Pull out 2 pins to remove the whole assembly. Five years of hard use from new, to date, no problems.
 SDC10003.JPG   216.56K   89 downloads  SDC10001.JPG   217.95K   81 downloads  SDC10005.JPG   273.99K   65 downloads

Yeaaaahhh...... Um, ok, uhhhhh. No.

[Jim Donovan]

JD- Other than aesthetic, is there a practical advantage to one transom configuration over the other?


The cut-out transom looks "racier", but it is actually slightly heavier than the more conventional cockpit style.
The more conventional style also give you a better "walkway" for the crew when the boat is knocked-down.

Does that translate into a "slightly heavier" bulb?

Bulb weight is controlled by the rule - usually a good idea to have a boat measure in at minimum class weight; careful control of the structural weigths is the best way to achieve this.

[windseekeryachts]

JD- Other than aesthetic, is there a practical advantage to one transom configuration over the other?


The cut-out transom looks "racier", but it is actually slightly heavier than the more conventional cockpit style.
The more conventional style also give you a better "walkway" for the crew when the boat is knocked-down.

Does that translate into a "slightly heavier" bulb?

Bulb weight is controlled by the rule - usually a good idea to have a boat measure in at minimum class weight; careful control of the structural weigths is the best way to achieve this.

Keel bulb is max allowed in class 445 kgs.

[Great Red Shark]

Sorry for a hijack guys, but.... anyone know where the thread about Jim's little boat went ? - you know the 21-22 footer he started making the prototype of here in Hawaii ?

Just curious how/if it got finished and how she sails, thanks.

[schoonerman]

Man-o-man this boat came out nice! Great attention to detail. $50k delivered to the EC is a good price.

I hope someone tackles the lifting keel engineering as it would make is boat much easier to move about.

[Jim Donovan]

Man-o-man this boat came out nice! Great attention to detail. $50k delivered to the EC is a good price.

I hope someone tackles the lifting keel engineering as it would make is boat much easier to move about.

Lifting keel arangement is being defined now.

[StayinStrewn]

Second the great looking boat...congrats

[SA Lurker]

Man-o-man this boat came out nice! Great attention to detail. $50k delivered to the EC is a good price.

I hope someone tackles the lifting keel engineering as it would make is boat much easier to move about.

Lifting keel arangement is being defined now.

That's one part of the simplified-trailering equation. What about the rudder? Is the VARA system as used in the M32 Class-viable?

[windseekeryachts]

hull 2 launched in HK

Attached Files

•  wraceboatsHK (Medium).JPG   200.14K   151 downloads

[Jim Donovan]

Man-o-man this boat came out nice! Great attention to detail. $50k delivered to the EC is a good price.

I hope someone tackles the lifting keel engineering as it would make is boat much easier to move about.

Lifting keel arangement is being defined now.

That's one part of the simplified-trailering equation. What about the rudder? Is the VARA system as used in the M32 Class-viable?

VARA system would be an option. Note that there might be more than one solution used, depending on the owner's preferences.

Interesting comparison photo between the Martinoli Marine GP 26 and Windseeker GP 26

Attached Files

•  GP 26 HK at Dock 3.jpg   469.41K   227 downloads

[Jim Donovan]

Another photo of Jim Daly's boat launched in HK this weekend.

Attached Files

•  GP 26 HK at Dock 2.jpg   844.42K   110 downloads

[Ryley]

Man-o-man this boat came out nice! Great attention to detail. $50k delivered to the EC is a good price.

I hope someone tackles the lifting keel engineering as it would make is boat much easier to move about.

Lifting keel arangement is being defined now.

That's one part of the simplified-trailering equation. What about the rudder? Is the VARA system as used in the M32 Class-viable?

VARA system would be an option. Note that there might be more than one solution used, depending on the owner's preferences.

Interesting comparison photo between the Martinoli Marine GP 26 and Windseeker GP 26

I'll take the Martinoli - it has a stereo

Seriously I'll bet the Donovan is going to prove to have legs over the the Martinoli.

[SA Lurker]

VARA system would be an option. Note that there might be more than one solution used, depending on the owner's preferences.

As the Designer of this boat, which would you recommend?

[MSA]

Hi JD. I cant really be bothered with looking through 12 pages of posts.. But is there any published VPP data for the boat.

[Heriberto]

Highly scientific GP26 polars for people who can't really be bothered to read through threads. Print and tape these in the boat:

Upwind
Windspeed(kts)/Target
0-2/Stuck
2-5/Ghosting
5-8/powered up
8-10/hullspeed
10-12/hullspeed depowering
12-14/hike bitches!
14-16/wet
16-18/really wet
18-22/try not to get knocked down
22+/switch to bigger boat

Downwind
Windspeed(kts)/Target
0-2/Keep boat moving
2-4/reduce wetted surface
4-6/hot angles
6-8/this is more like it
8-10/I love this boat
10-12/glad I have a string on my hat
12-14/DAMN!
14-16/Oh shit, we have to gybe already!
16-20/Wish I wore a drysuit
20+/Lana? Dangerzone.

[StayinStrewn]

well played, sir!

[Jim Donovan]

Highly scientific GP26 polars for people who can't really be bothered to read through threads. Print and tape these in the boat:

Upwind
Windspeed(kts)/Target
0-2/Stuck
2-5/Ghosting
5-8/powered up
8-10/hullspeed
10-12/hullspeed depowering
12-14/hike bitches!
14-16/wet
16-18/really wet
18-22/try not to get knocked down
22+/switch to bigger boat

Downwind
Windspeed(kts)/Target
0-2/Keep boat moving
2-4/reduce wetted surface
4-6/hot angles
6-8/this is more like it
8-10/I love this boat
10-12/glad I have a string on my hat
12-14/DAMN!
14-16/Oh shit, we have to gybe already!
16-20/Wish I wore a drysuit
20+/Lana? Dangerzone.

Slide "ghosting" down a few knots and you be hiking at 10 (BIG RIG)

& MUCH less panic in the higher windspeeds downwind; - no problem gybing in 20 knots.
We sailed in 18 knots gusting to 20 on the first sail - no water on deck.

[Heriberto]

Slide "ghosting" down a few knots and you be hiking at 10 (BIG RIG)

& MUCH less panic in the higher windspeeds downwind; - no problem gybing in 20 knots.
We sailed in 18 knots gusting to 20 on the first sail - no water on deck.

Ha ha, I was joking of course, but it's great to have the designer's input on the polars!

I figured that you are already hiking upwind at 7kts or so with the boat fully powered up? Regarding gybing, I was guessing that in over 14kts or so you are basically at your gybe point a minute or two after your last gybe. Danger Zone is an Archer/Top Gun reference. like any jet fighter I'm sure this thing has an afterburner in over 20. Also, I would be worried about digging it into waves given its size.

The video I've seen it looked pretty flat for the amount of wind you had, is that just my perception? Have you heard feedback on sailing it in wind and waves?

[Jim Donovan]

Hi JD. I cant really be bothered with looking through 12 pages of posts.. But is there any published VPP data for the boat.

I have polars generated from the ORC Rule VPP.

First a word about VPP Polars:

Most VPPs are not comparable, which essentially makes them worthless when reviewing various designs that have polars generated from different VPP programs.

Also VPPs derive their performace data from various sources. The ORC VPP uses the old IMS VPP as the base and has been tweaked to accomodate a wider range of boats.
From what we can tell, it has a difficult time accurately predicting actual performance of sportboats.

In the attached VPP the downwind performance curves appear to be slower than actual recorded speeds.

Attached Files

•  jp donovan DESIGN GP 26 Polar Graph.pdf   587.85K   67 downloads

[Jim Donovan]

Slide "ghosting" down a few knots and you be hiking at 10 (BIG RIG)

& MUCH less panic in the higher windspeeds downwind; - no problem gybing in 20 knots.
We sailed in 18 knots gusting to 20 on the first sail - no water on deck.

Ha ha, I was joking of course, but it's great to have the designer's input on the polars!

I figured that you are already hiking upwind at 7kts or so with the boat fully powered up? Regarding gybing, I was guessing that in over 14kts or so you are basically at your gybe point a minute or two after your last gybe. Danger Zone is an Archer/Top Gun reference. like any jet fighter I'm sure this thing has an afterburner in over 20. Also, I would be worried about digging it into waves given its size.

The video I've seen it looked pretty flat for the amount of wind you had, is that just my perception? Have you heard feedback on sailing it in wind and waves?

In the area we sailed the wind was coming offshore, so no time to build up waves.

Weight aft is important - the spinnaker is HUGE!
The latest stern pulpit design is intended to give the crew a more secure location when pushing the boat downwind.

As the wave size increases downwind, for sure the boat will be launched and punching into the next wave.
Now I'll revert to surfing terminolgy, becasue in big waves a fast sailboat is acting a lot like a longboard.

If you drive straight down a wave you will most certainly "pearl" (drive the nose deep into the briny - game over), so you need to rotate onto the face and enjoy the ride.
You will be going very fast at this stage which helps with stability, but unlike a longboard you have also rotated your rig so you'll be reaching up a bit.
Your sail trimmer has to synched with the helmsman to keep the sails sheeted just right - this requires some practice.
The extra stability of my design will help a lot in this situation, and the hull is designed to continue planning when heeled, so you can push the boat very hard without control issues.

You will probably want your drysuit . . .

[Munster]

Slide "ghosting" down a few knots and you be hiking at 10 (BIG RIG)

& MUCH less panic in the higher windspeeds downwind; - no problem gybing in 20 knots.
We sailed in 18 knots gusting to 20 on the first sail - no water on deck.

Ha ha, I was joking of course, but it's great to have the designer's input on the polars!

I figured that you are already hiking upwind at 7kts or so with the boat fully powered up? Regarding gybing, I was guessing that in over 14kts or so you are basically at your gybe point a minute or two after your last gybe. Danger Zone is an Archer/Top Gun reference. like any jet fighter I'm sure this thing has an afterburner in over 20. Also, I would be worried about digging it into waves given its size.

The video I've seen it looked pretty flat for the amount of wind you had, is that just my perception? Have you heard feedback on sailing it in wind and waves?

In the area we sailed the wind was coming offshore, so no time to build up waves.

Weight aft is important - the spinnaker is HUGE!
The latest stern pulpit design is intended to give the crew a more secure location when pushing the boat downwind.

As the wave size increases downwind, for sure the boat will be launched and punching into the next wave.
Now I'll revert to surfing terminolgy, becasue in big waves a fast sailboat is acting a lot like a longboard.

If you drive straight down a wave you will most certainly "pearl" (drive the nose deep into the briny - game over), so you need to rotate onto the face and enjoy the ride.
You will be going very fast at this stage which helps with stability, but unlike a longboard you have also rotated your rig so you'll be reaching up a bit.
Your sail trimmer has to synched with the helmsman to keep the sails sheeted just right - this requires some practice.
The extra stability of my design will help a lot in this situation, and the hull is designed to continue planning when heeled, so you can push the boat very hard without control issues.

You will probably want your drysuit . . .

Like this !!  GP26 in double cone Island race.png   254.21K   110 downloads

[windseekeryachts]

Slide "ghosting" down a few knots and you be hiking at 10 (BIG RIG)

& MUCH less panic in the higher windspeeds downwind; - no problem gybing in 20 knots.
We sailed in 18 knots gusting to 20 on the first sail - no water on deck.

Ha ha, I was joking of course, but it's great to have the designer's input on the polars!

I figured that you are already hiking upwind at 7kts or so with the boat fully powered up? Regarding gybing, I was guessing that in over 14kts or so you are basically at your gybe point a minute or two after your last gybe. Danger Zone is an Archer/Top Gun reference. like any jet fighter I'm sure this thing has an afterburner in over 20. Also, I would be worried about digging it into waves given its size.

The video I've seen it looked pretty flat for the amount of wind you had, is that just my perception? Have you heard feedback on sailing it in wind and waves?

In the area we sailed the wind was coming offshore, so no time to build up waves.

Weight aft is important - the spinnaker is HUGE!
The latest stern pulpit design is intended to give the crew a more secure location when pushing the boat downwind.

As the wave size increases downwind, for sure the boat will be launched and punching into the next wave.
Now I'll revert to surfing terminolgy, becasue in big waves a fast sailboat is acting a lot like a longboard.

If you drive straight down a wave you will most certainly "pearl" (drive the nose deep into the briny - game over), so you need to rotate onto the face and enjoy the ride.
You will be going very fast at this stage which helps with stability, but unlike a longboard you have also rotated your rig so you'll be reaching up a bit.
Your sail trimmer has to synched with the helmsman to keep the sails sheeted just right - this requires some practice.
The extra stability of my design will help a lot in this situation, and the hull is designed to continue planning when heeled, so you can push the boat very hard without control issues.

You will probably want your drysuit . . .

Like this !!  GP26 in double cone Island race.png   254.21K   110 downloads

When is the new one splashing? Hopefully we can have one of ours down there soon...