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#1 Rapscallion

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Posted 11 September 2010 - 05:39 PM

Would a hull shape like this work for a mini? looks pretty frigging cool, maybe a mini built like this would be good around the cans and in a distance race...


http://www.sailboat-...yacht_Polli.pdf

#2 Amati

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Posted 11 September 2010 - 08:13 PM

It's a trimaran. No tris allowed (even if skinni) in the mini class, I think.....

i really like typing skinni mini.

P

#3 Rapscallion

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Posted 11 September 2010 - 09:11 PM

Skinni Minni!

I thought it was a mono in a miniskirt,

#4 Amati

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Posted 11 September 2010 - 10:49 PM

uh, don't you mean, maybe a mini kilt?

P

#5 Rapscallion

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Posted 11 September 2010 - 10:58 PM

NICE!

Posted Image


If it ain't Scottish.... It ain't sh*t!

#6 Just Another Sailor

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Posted 12 September 2010 - 12:18 AM

NICE!

Posted Image


If it ain't Scottish.... It ain't sh*t!


Now I'm starting to like the mini class of sailor... brings back memories of sailing a Finn!

#7 jhc

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Posted 12 September 2010 - 05:32 PM


NICE!

Posted Image


If it ain't Scottish.... It ain't sh*t!


Now I'm starting to like the mini class of sailor... brings back memories of sailing a Finn!

I would say that for most, the drapes don't match the carpet...

#8 Steam Flyer

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Posted 12 September 2010 - 05:46 PM

Would a hull shape like this work for a mini? looks pretty frigging cool, maybe a mini built like this would be good around the cans and in a distance race...


http://www.sailboat-...yacht_Polli.pdf


Sure it would work.

Although IMHO the hull "wings" trying to mimic a trimaran look like they would drag sideways at almost any angle of heel that immersed them, and thus would be a detriment to performance (at least, when heeled or in big waves).

FB- Doug

#9 dde

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Posted 12 September 2010 - 10:40 PM

It would work, but just not that efficiently. I don't think the design would work as a traditional cat or tri would sail because you work with two small pontoons on a cat, which makes it so fast, but with this design, you'll heel on the "wing", but you're still connected some way to the rest of the hull.

Creative design, but it seems flawed.

#10 ctutmark

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Posted 12 September 2010 - 10:46 PM

I think there would be problem with the rule at the beginning of section J in the Classe Mini rules:

HULL - ARCHITECTURE
A monohull is defined as a vessel having only one flotation plane, when stationary or with sails up in sailing conditions,
in which the depth of the hull in all its sections must not decrease in the direction of the axis of symmetry.

#11 quasi-expert

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Posted 13 September 2010 - 07:34 AM

I think there would be problem with the rule at the beginning of section J in the Classe Mini rules:

HULL - ARCHITECTURE
A monohull is defined as a vessel having only one flotation plane, when stationary or with sails up in sailing conditions,
in which the depth of the hull in all its sections must not decrease in the direction of the axis of symmetry.


yep. those wings are only possible if they never touch the water. But then they are no advantage anymore (if at all) because you have to stay inside the maximum beam rule and therefore you lose a lot of power with the reduced form stability.
on the other hand if you read the .pdf a bit further this hull concept was developed as an alternative to having a canting keel. all the fast protos have canting keels and I'm sure if this hull form had an advantage in the class someone would have tried it.

#12 friwi

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Posted 13 September 2010 - 12:46 PM

Minis are designed to be sailed singlehanded offshore downwind. They are phenomenally good at this, witness the fact that Betrand Delesne just did 304 miles in 24 hours in the recent Azores race.

For this you need a very flat run aft and a maximized planing area, see the new Manuard designs for reference. There is no other offshore class that has its length/ beam or power/weight ratios, so accept the fact that they are special in this respect and just go for the surf!

I think there would be problem with the rule at the beginning of section J in the Classe Mini rules:

HULL - ARCHITECTURE
A monohull is defined as a vessel having only one flotation plane, when stationary or with sails up in sailing conditions,
in which the depth of the hull in all its sections must not decrease in the direction of the axis of symmetry.





Minis are designed to be sailed singlehanded offshore downwind. They are phenomenally good at this, witness the fact that Betrand Delesne just did 304 miles in 24 hours in the recent Azores race.&nbsp;<div><br></div><div>For this you need a very flat run aft and a maximized planing area, see the new Manuard designs for reference. There is no other offshore class that has its length/ beam or power/weight ratios, so accept the fact that they are special in this respect and just go for the surf!&nbsp;</div>

#13 Rapscallion

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Posted 14 September 2010 - 10:45 AM

Yes! 304 miles in 24 hours is awesome! I did my first single handed distance race this summer, 135 miles in 36 hours on Lake Michigan. Granted, a good chunk of that time, (over 14 hours) I bobbed with no wind at all, but that is racing for ya....just saying I have first hand experience, so I can really understand how big of an accomplishment that is... One of the things that I like about the mini 650 class is that it's a development class. I'm more of a development class guy than a one design guy... I like thinking about how to make the design faster as well as thinking about how to sail it faster....

I just thought this hull design was interesting... good god I would never actually build it... if I were going to build something crazy chances are it would probably be a proa or an iceboat or something...

I just like the idea of taking a downwind rocket and making it even better... maybe it isn't possible to improve on the design... but at the moment, I don't know enough about yacht design to actually believe that.

#14 Andraz Seascape18

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Posted 14 September 2010 - 11:20 AM

You said it all, no multihulls in Minis even though you'd bring the floats all the way to the hull :)

#15 Icedtea

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Posted 14 September 2010 - 10:13 PM

Just think of a mini sized, scaled down ORMA 60.... Good god...

#16 dde

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 05:36 PM

Just think of a mini sized, scaled down ORMA 60.... Good god...


Is that a challenge? 20' Tri sounds like a blast!

#17 Koh Samia

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Posted 18 September 2010 - 12:03 AM


Just think of a mini sized, scaled down ORMA 60.... Good god...


Is that a challenge? 20' Tri sounds like a blast!


I'm sure more than one class started just like that... except, may be, with some drawings on a paper napkin and some beer around...

SHTP in a 21' tri... sounds like fun! But probably smaller living area than in a mini, though! ;-)

#18 Rapscallion

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Posted 18 September 2010 - 02:12 PM

"mini" ORMA 60 from a designer that worked on the ORMA 60s. He calls it the sardine run....
Sardine run

#19 willy the bruce

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Posted 13 December 2010 - 02:17 PM

NICE!

Posted Image


If it ain't Scottish.... It ain't sh*t!


tits n arse, tits n arse. The tits turn ye on, the flat bellies make it feasible.

This thing is about sailboats, ent ett?

#20 Scottishian

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Posted 16 April 2011 - 07:37 AM

Oh I'll second that! Love it

#21 josselin

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Posted 14 October 2011 - 10:42 AM

the mini rule does not allow inflection point un the hull ths such a shape would not be accepted in the class

#22 Sisifo

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Posted 24 December 2011 - 06:54 AM

When I read this topic the first thing that I imagined was something like this...
http://www.sail-world.com/Australia/index.cfm?SEID=0&Nid=40833&SRCID=0&ntid=0&tickeruid=0&tickerCID=0
Posted Image
Looks like a hull with one surface in the water. There are any interest in use the wings to modify the waterlines. Don't have problems to go fast downwind with a small bottom... And the skirts wait you in the harbor when finish ....
Sisifo.

#23 trenace

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Posted 24 December 2011 - 02:52 PM

The box rule limits beam, and it's not clear that wings going past the limit would be accepted. An ordinary reading of the rules would take the wings as being part of the boat and included in the beam.

Wings are widely considered as being unsuited to ocean-going boats for safety reasons, so there might be no desire to make an exception to the box rule to accomodate wings going outside the box.

The stability requirements for the Mini 6.50 would make it impossible to be anywhere near as light for its length as the 18 foot skiff you picture, so it cannot plane on nearly as small a surface as the skiff.

The skiff is not seaworthy. They often capsize in the harbor, and are not self-righting. They are fantastic boats, but too dissimilar to the Mini 6.50.

#24 ColinG

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Posted 24 December 2011 - 11:46 PM

You know trenace, you gotta get a life. you take everything much too seriously.

#25 trenace

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Posted 26 December 2011 - 07:57 PM

Nope, I see a guy with 4 posts, and I think a gentle response that explains it for him is appropriate. From how his post was written it may be that he is a novice not only to SA but to the different classes of boats.

As for you, you see my response, and you post that.

It's possible my post was useless to Sisifo and if so, probably useless to everybody, but it's hard to see how yours could possibly be anything but a waste of time for everybody.

Suggestion: the site has an Ignore feature. Use it for people whose posts you don't care to read, instead of wasting people's time as above.

#26 mark washeim

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Posted 29 December 2011 - 11:23 AM

i'm not a believer in the shape in general, regardless of the rule. i do believe the pointy bow thing may disappear though. I've been speaking about this with Alan Clarke, who's not quite ready for that, but i think that the pointy bow may be a hold over from displacement boat days, much like the attached foot of a mainsail lived far beyond its time.

boats used to need to sail through the water. today, with materials being what they are, for the most part boats sail over the water. because of this i believe the scow bow will creep into other modern yacht race designs. there are so many advantages to it: increased stability, greater volume forward, more-fair diagonal displacement lines, healed sailing line angles closer to center-line & i'm sure a few more. http://www.seasailsu...d_article=5903. Alan thinks that it would add too much weight to a class 40 because of the free board requirements. It just feels like the right way to go to me though.

http://www.seasailsu...id_article=5903

#27 Amati

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Posted 30 December 2011 - 04:50 PM

i'm not a believer in the shape in general, regardless of the rule. i do believe the pointy bow thing may disappear though. I've been speaking about this with Alan Clarke, who's not quite ready for that, but i think that the pointy bow may be a hold over from displacement boat days, much like the attached foot of a mainsail lived far beyond its time.

boats used to need to sail through the water. today, with materials being what they are, for the most part boats sail over the water. because of this i believe the scow bow will creep into other modern yacht race designs. there are so many advantages to it: increased stability, greater volume forward, more-fair diagonal displacement lines, healed sailing line angles closer to center-line & i'm sure a few more. http://www.seasailsu...d_article=5903. Alan thinks that it would add too much weight to a class 40 because of the free board requirements. It just feels like the right way to go to me though.

http://www.seasailsurf.com/seasailsurf/actu/spip.php?page=imprimer&id_article=5903


Something like a big Fireball? Could it be light enough? In plywood? For minis.

#28 trenace

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Posted 31 December 2011 - 12:11 AM

There's no direct rule on how much ballast is required, but the boat must be stable with 45 kg attached to the masthead.

That may in practice result in a need for ballast putting the weight well above any dinghy category. No one is actually running as dinghies (e.g Fireball.)

Also crew weight can't contribute so much to righting moment, so ballast does serve a purpose for sail carrying power, particularly if water ballast or canted.

#29 mark washeim

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Posted 31 December 2011 - 12:49 AM


i'm not a believer in the shape in general, regardless of the rule. i do believe the pointy bow thing may disappear though. I've been speaking about this with Alan Clarke, who's not quite ready for that, but i think that the pointy bow may be a hold over from displacement boat days, much like the attached foot of a mainsail lived far beyond its time.

boats used to need to sail through the water. today, with materials being what they are, for the most part boats sail over the water. because of this i believe the scow bow will creep into other modern yacht race designs. there are so many advantages to it: increased stability, greater volume forward, more-fair diagonal displacement lines, healed sailing line angles closer to center-line & i'm sure a few more. http://www.seasailsu...d_article=5903. Alan thinks that it would add too much weight to a class 40 because of the free board requirements. It just feels like the right way to go to me though.

http://www.seasailsurf.com/seasailsurf/actu/spip.php?page=imprimer&id_article=5903


Something like a big Fireball? Could it be light enough? In plywood? For minis.


more like a scow. like an A scow. for example:
http://www.sailingtexas.com/Pics/picmelges38100a.jpg
http://www.boatdesign.net/gallery/data/500/medium/Scow_with_PBS_3.JPG
http://members.nuvox.net/~zt.weilerp/JRay_20070922.jpg
http://www.sail-world.com/photos/Alt_E-scow%20action%20-79911.jpg

#30 Carboninit

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Posted 31 December 2011 - 06:25 PM

Matteo apologies for bursting your bubble this was done in 1985. Speak to Rob Humphreys the designer. Good presentation and interesting file.

#31 Amati

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Posted 01 January 2012 - 08:01 PM



i'm not a believer in the shape in general, regardless of the rule. i do believe the pointy bow thing may disappear though. I've been speaking about this with Alan Clarke, who's not quite ready for that, but i think that the pointy bow may be a hold over from displacement boat days, much like the attached foot of a mainsail lived far beyond its time.

boats used to need to sail through the water. today, with materials being what they are, for the most part boats sail over the water. because of this i believe the scow bow will creep into other modern yacht race designs. there are so many advantages to it: increased stability, greater volume forward, more-fair diagonal displacement lines, healed sailing line angles closer to center-line & i'm sure a few more. http://www.seasailsu...d_article=5903. Alan thinks that it would add too much weight to a class 40 because of the free board requirements. It just feels like the right way to go to me though.

http://www.seasailsurf.com/seasailsurf/actu/spip.php?page=imprimer&id_article=5903


Something like a big Fireball? Could it be light enough? In plywood? For minis.


more like a scow. like an A scow. for example:
http://www.sailingtexas.com/Pics/picmelges38100a.jpg
http://www.boatdesign.net/gallery/data/500/medium/Scow_with_PBS_3.JPG
http://members.nuvox.net/~zt.weilerp/JRay_20070922.jpg
http://www.sail-world.com/photos/Alt_E-scow%20action%20-79911.jpg



Scows slither through swells. Extreme engineering?

#32 ctutmark

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Posted 03 January 2012 - 11:28 PM

The mini class has freeboard rules so 747 was the reality of what you describe

As for the wings, they'd have to be within the 3m beam. Even then a skinny boat wouldn't be allowed as much moveable ballast due to the 10 degree rule.





i'm not a believer in the shape in general, regardless of the rule. i do believe the pointy bow thing may disappear though. I've been speaking about this with Alan Clarke, who's not quite ready for that, but i think that the pointy bow may be a hold over from displacement boat days, much like the attached foot of a mainsail lived far beyond its time.

boats used to need to sail through the water. today, with materials being what they are, for the most part boats sail over the water. because of this i believe the scow bow will creep into other modern yacht race designs. there are so many advantages to it: increased stability, greater volume forward, more-fair diagonal displacement lines, healed sailing line angles closer to center-line & i'm sure a few more. http://www.seasailsu...d_article=5903. Alan thinks that it would add too much weight to a class 40 because of the free board requirements. It just feels like the right way to go to me though.

http://www.seasailsurf.com/seasailsurf/actu/spip.php?page=imprimer&id_article=5903


Something like a big Fireball? Could it be light enough? In plywood? For minis.


more like a scow. like an A scow. for example:
http://www.sailingtexas.com/Pics/picmelges38100a.jpg
http://www.boatdesign.net/gallery/data/500/medium/Scow_with_PBS_3.JPG
http://members.nuvox.net/~zt.weilerp/JRay_20070922.jpg
http://www.sail-world.com/photos/Alt_E-scow%20action%20-79911.jpg



Scows slither through swells. Extreme engineering?



#33 Kenny Dumas

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Posted 12 January 2012 - 12:12 AM

Slither sounds good. Maybe you take a scow with very low freeboard forward and combine it with a pointy bow with normal freeboard. In flat conditions it goes over the water like a normal scow. Rough conditions when heeled, the low freeboard scow bow goes through the waves but the pointy bow keeps the boat a little drier. Weird, but so are wave piercing bows on multihulls.

#34 trenace

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Posted 12 January 2012 - 01:04 AM

I'm not clear -- how do you combine a scow with a pointy bow?

At whatever height above the water you have the scow shape, you have that width... how can it go back to being a V shape for the higher part? Do you mean to have basically hollows or cutouts?

#35 Kenny Dumas

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Posted 12 January 2012 - 05:25 PM

Hard to explain without a drawing, but imagine a normal lake scow with the splashguard or whatever you call that thing on the deck in front of the mast. Make it bigger, take it all the way to the bow and fill it with boat. Strictly a rule beater design, but at least all the leading edges are pointy instead of a flat surface to slam into waves. Hard to say whether it violates the "no concave hull" rule. You could argue it's just a funky deck and the gunwhale is the outer edge of the scow hull, not the pointy deck hull.

#36 ctutmark

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Posted 12 January 2012 - 05:31 PM

Hard to explain without a drawing, but imagine a normal lake scow with the splashguard or whatever you call that thing on the deck in front of the mast. Make it bigger, take it all the way to the bow and fill it with boat. Strictly a rule beater design, but at least all the leading edges are pointy instead of a flat surface to slam into waves. Hard to say whether it violates the "no concave hull" rule. You could argue it's just a funky deck and the gunwhale is the outer edge of the scow hull, not the pointy deck hull.



Hope you can come up with a sketch

#37 trenace

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Posted 12 January 2012 - 06:17 PM

Hard to explain without a drawing, but imagine a normal lake scow with the splashguard or whatever you call that thing on the deck in front of the mast. Make it bigger, take it all the way to the bow and fill it with boat. Strictly a rule beater design, but at least all the leading edges are pointy instead of a flat surface to slam into waves. Hard to say whether it violates the "no concave hull" rule. You could argue it's just a funky deck and the gunwhale is the outer edge of the scow hull, not the pointy deck hull.

I think I see what you mean. Interesting idea.

#38 Doug Lord

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Posted 12 January 2012 - 10:31 PM

Hard to explain without a drawing, but imagine a normal lake scow with the splashguard or whatever you call that thing on the deck in front of the mast. Make it bigger, take it all the way to the bow and fill it with boat. Strictly a rule beater design, but at least all the leading edges are pointy instead of a flat surface to slam into waves. Hard to say whether it violates the "no concave hull" rule. You could argue it's just a funky deck and the gunwhale is the outer edge of the scow hull, not the pointy deck hull.

-------------------------
Did this in the euphoria following David Raisons tremendous victory. Wanted to see how "his" thinking might be applied to a daysailer.
Note the "third bow"- similar to the nacelle on the older Prout catamarans. Tunnel hull reduces wetted surface faster with heel than a flat hull-like the Melges 20 and other tunnel hulled lake scows. Like all scows would be designed to sail at an angle of heel-not flat-at least upwind:

Attached Files



#39 ctutmark

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Posted 13 January 2012 - 05:18 AM

These ideas are all well and good but how about taking into consideration these: Attached File  2011_Official_texts.pdf   863.93K   216 downloads

Since we're talking about minis.....

#40 BalticBandit

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Posted 18 January 2012 - 09:15 PM

These ideas are all well and good but how about taking into consideration these: Attached File  2011_Official_texts.pdf   863.93K   216 downloads

Since we're talking about minis.....

Thank you Chris! This isn't the place to discuss 16' Daysailer scows that have nothing to do with Minis - shoo Doug

#41 Doug Lord

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Posted 19 January 2012 - 01:27 PM


These ideas are all well and good but how about taking into consideration these: Attached File  2011_Official_texts.pdf   863.93K   216 downloads

Since we're talking about minis.....

Thank you Chris! This isn't the place to discuss 16' Daysailer scows that have nothing to do with Minis - shoo Doug

==========================
My post of the 16 footer wasn't about a discussion of a 16' scow daysailer, it was about a previous posters description of a Mini shape he envisioned. I posted the sketch because it seemed relevant to his shape description.

#42 Amati

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 03:37 PM

Here's a boat that might give you an idea of what a pointy bowed scow might look like. It's from the 20's, so the keel is very old school. I'll see if I can find some pics/lines of Sonder Boats which are in the same vein.

http://www.boatdesig...ject-13741.html

Paul

#43 Amati

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 03:42 PM

http://forum.woodenb...der-class-races

Very nice pics. Scroll down for Sonder boat pics. Z Jollencruezer is instructive methinks.

Paul

#44 Doug Lord

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 08:47 PM

http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthread.php?66413-I-will-not-survive-the-sonder-class-races

Very nice pics. Scroll down for Sonder boat pics. Z Jollencruezer is instructive methinks.

Paul

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Great pix! Thats one wild assed fully battened, square top "gaff" rig!

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