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The cup is dead.


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#1 Abbo

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Posted 13 September 2010 - 03:10 PM

Well done LE and EB, you just made Ernie look like a good guy! What a fucking circus. What are we all supposed to go out and buy wing sailed cats now? Don't think that will work in my local marina. I live in one if those weird places where it can be windy at night. Good way to distance yourself from your core group of fans, chose a style of boat which it seriously impractical and out of reach for 99.9% of the fan base. I've supported LE and RC right through this last cycle, but they are dead to me now, and so is the Americas Cup.

#2 USA_73

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Posted 13 September 2010 - 03:16 PM

So how many of those 80' pig daysailors with their 20 crew and matching support boats are in your local marina?

#3 CrushDigital

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Posted 13 September 2010 - 03:17 PM

But you were going to go out and buy a super skinny accomodationless all carbon mono with a draft of 13 feet, 80% of its weight in the keel, crew of 17 and 60 sails for the thing, right?

The ACC boats were as similar to your 4ktsb as an F1 car is to a Kia Rio. Sure they both have four wheels and are rely on the same general concepts but that's where the similarities end so enough with this line about how the AC boats are too far from what normal sailors use.

#4 MR.CLEAN

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Posted 13 September 2010 - 03:24 PM

it's comical how mono sailors ignore the fact that there are hundreds of thousands of beach cats, racing cats, and cruising cats out there when they go down this line of reasoning.

#5 DEAD MONEY

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Posted 13 September 2010 - 03:34 PM

Well done LE and EB, you just made Ernie look like a good guy! What a fucking circus. What are we all supposed to go out and buy wing sailed cats now? Don't think that will work in my local marina. I live in one if those weird places where it can be windy at night. Good way to distance yourself from your core group of fans, chose a style of boat which it seriously impractical and out of reach for 99.9% of the fan base. I've supported LE and RC right through this last cycle, but they are dead to me now, and so is the Americas Cup.


You really want to go with this line of logic??

Still drive a horse and buggy ?

Have electricity?

Watch Porn on VHF ?

Sail a wooden boat?

Have a rotary phone?

Have a cell phone?

Getting a hint yet ?

Have a 3rd grade education? Sorry couldn't help myself there....haha

Times are a changing, technology changes everything, especially when it comes to Racing! Wanna go fast it is gonna cost you and NOT just in sailboats but in ANY sport!!

I loved the "J's" but they were too big and costly and I am sure people of that generation had the same gripe!!

#6 hyderally

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Posted 13 September 2010 - 03:46 PM

I don't think that's the point. For a match Race, the multis are a terrible choice. Multi and wings are neat but the racing will be dull to watch. Tactics will be elementary and the competition will be minimal once one boat is found to be faster. Very bad choice of boats for a match race.

#7 Abbo

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Posted 13 September 2010 - 03:47 PM

Gee now there's some balanced, well thought out replies. Err they have two hulls and a solid wingsail. That's a completely different concept in any sane persons world. The Americas cup has not been about going as fast as possible ever since the twelve meters appeared. And despite this it is still the pinnacle of the sport. Does sailing need a grandprix circuit in the fastest boats on earth? Absolutely. But start another event, don't go experimenting with the one event that has stood the test if time. Too much change too soon will fuck it up for sure. I quite sure that ac34 will have less than 5 entries. What a fucking JOKE! Are you fools really believing the bullshit RC is pedaling? If they are serious about making a spectacle of it then why the hell would you match race? Fleet racing is ten times more exciting and more fair. It much easier to win a match with a bs advantage than it is to win a fleet race with the same advantage. BMWO have the upper hand now and are keeping it. Shameful behaviour after all their "we are they good guys" rehtoric. The publicists for eb, allinghi and sng must be dancing in the streets!

#8 Experimental

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Posted 13 September 2010 - 03:52 PM

At least in the days of the Js and the 12s and the IACCs you could hope for a bit of trickle down for your 4KTSB. There are plenty of racer/cruiser monos out there that benefit from things like 3DL sails and carbon masts and advances in cordage technology. There aren't really as many casual sailors with winged cats, and while I'm sure we will see more wings in the future, the technology has a long way to go until the average club racer can master it.

The old AC boats were always lightyears ahead of the average sailboat, but the average sailor could still identify with the equipment. They could look at the AC and see spinnakers, mainsheets, and many of the same crew positions you see on any other boat with the crew performing many of the same maneuvers, albeit on a MUCH higher level. I have yet to figure out what a "wing trimmer caddy" does. It's like if you instituted rugby rules in the NFL tomorrow. It would still be fun to watch, but nothing like the game we're used to playing in the backyard.

#9 Abbo

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Posted 13 September 2010 - 03:53 PM

it's comical how mono sailors ignore the fact that there are hundreds of thousands of beach cats, racing cats, and cruising cats out there when they go down this line of reasoning.

My god you are such an ignorant fool clean. If the catwhackers are so great then where is their event. Oh it's in 25 foot two man boats. With a fleet if less than ten. And three if them broke on the first day. If you want a multiple hull event then fucking start one!!!!

#10 WetHog

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Posted 13 September 2010 - 04:02 PM


it's comical how mono sailors ignore the fact that there are hundreds of thousands of beach cats, racing cats, and cruising cats out there when they go down this line of reasoning.

My god you are such an ignorant fool clean. If the catwhackers are so great then where is their event. Oh it's in 25 foot two man boats. With a fleet if less than ten. And three if them broke on the first day. If you want a multiple hull event then fucking start one!!!!


BMWO just started a pretty significant event for multi's and the sooner you come to grips with that the less miserable you will be. Worked for me.

WetHog

#11 Abbo

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Posted 13 September 2010 - 04:04 PM

DEAD Money
Logic!? Coming from you with that arguement is rich! Yes I am out of the dark ages. I normally Sail on a tp52 and I'm writing this on iPhone 4. But I'd love to hear how you watch porn on a VHF radio! Why don't you get back to us when you've formed a valid argument.

#12 K38BOB

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Posted 13 September 2010 - 04:06 PM

I don't think that's the point. For a match Race, the multis are a terrible choice. Multi and wings are neat but the racing will be dull to watch. Tactics will be elementary and the competition will be minimal once one boat is found to be faster. Very bad choice of boats for a match race.


1- AC is not a match race- though it resembles one
2- The BOR sailors were not multihullers. Thay had to learn. Here's how
http://forums.sailin...dpost&p=2771450

#13 Abbo

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Posted 13 September 2010 - 04:06 PM



it's comical how mono sailors ignore the fact that there are hundreds of thousands of beach cats, racing cats, and cruising cats out there when they go down this line of reasoning.

My god you are such an ignorant fool clean. If the catwhackers are so great then where is their event. Oh it's in 25 foot two man boats. With a fleet if less than ten. And three if them broke on the first day. If you want a multiple hull event then fucking start one!!!!


BMWO just started a pretty significant event for multi's and the sooner you come to grips with that the less miserable you will be. Worked for me.

WetHog


I have come to grips with it. Did you read the title of my thread? The ac is dead!

#14 CrushDigital

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Posted 13 September 2010 - 04:09 PM

At least in the days of the Js and the 12s and the IACCs you could hope for a bit of trickle down for your 4KTSB. There are plenty of racer/cruiser monos out there that benefit from things like 3DL sails and carbon masts and advances in cordage technology. There aren't really as many casual sailors with winged cats, and while I'm sure we will see more wings in the future, the technology has a long way to go until the average club racer can master it.

The old AC boats were always lightyears ahead of the average sailboat, but the average sailor could still identify with the equipment. They could look at the AC and see spinnakers, mainsheets, and many of the same crew positions you see on any other boat with the crew performing many of the same maneuvers, albeit on a MUCH higher level. I have yet to figure out what a "wing trimmer caddy" does. It's like if you instituted rugby rules in the NFL tomorrow. It would still be fun to watch, but nothing like the game we're used to playing in the backyard.


The items you are describing as trickle down could have easily come from a cat as well. No matter what kind of boat they use their will be materials improvements that we will eventually see.

In the description of the AC72, it even said there will be provisions for masts and soft sails, I imagine to be used in seriously heavy conditions.

#15 joeboy

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Posted 13 September 2010 - 04:09 PM

I don't think that's the point. For a match Race, the multis are a terrible choice. Multi and wings are neat but the racing will be dull to watch. Tactics will be elementary and the competition will be minimal once one boat is found to be faster. Very bad choice of boats for a match race.


Is this all that different from any other match race involving any other kind of sailboat?
As you say, at least the boat and wings will be neat.

#16 Abbo

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Posted 13 September 2010 - 04:09 PM


I don't think that's the point. For a match Race, the multis are a terrible choice. Multi and wings are neat but the racing will be dull to watch. Tactics will be elementary and the competition will be minimal once one boat is found to be faster. Very bad choice of boats for a match race.


1- AC is not a match race- though it resembles one
2- The BOR sailors were not multihullers. Thay had to learn. Here's how
http://forums.sailin...dpost&p=2771450

The ac is not a match race? Did you watch the finals of ac 32? I think the whole world might disagree with you there. WhT was the biggest margin? 14 seconds?

#17 pjh

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Posted 13 September 2010 - 04:18 PM


1- AC is not a match race- though it resembles one

The ac is not a match race? Did you watch the finals of ac 32? I think the whole world might disagree with you there. WhT was the biggest margin? 14 seconds?

The AC is not a match race, but sometimes it approaches it. When it gets really close to being a match race, the boat is changed so that it is no longer is. The losing side has won 13 races out of 126 races run. Some match race.

#18 Barkley

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Posted 13 September 2010 - 04:20 PM

The AC is supposed to be at the pinnacle of the sport. As a mono sailor, I'm not sure "we" can make that claim anymore. Both cats and wings are more efficient at playing the game, and it IS the same game.

#19 Naviguesser

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Posted 13 September 2010 - 04:21 PM

Sometimes I think we've all become too old to appreciate the fun in doing something different. "How many ways can we fly a spinnaker?" Or, "How many spinnakers can we fly at one time?" Or, "What happens if..." Isn't this how we have foilers, skiffs, winged tri's, etc?

Look, these guys spent months (years actually) doing nothing but put this together. They discussed it with everyone and solicited opinions from every corner of the globe and then made this decision. It's theirs to make and it could be awesome or it could be shit; there's still a long row to hoe till 2013.

First glance tells me that there is no trouble with the Deed thus far and therefore no legitimate basis for the NYSC to get involved; we'll see how the money flows, which could be a different matter.

Let's get some perspective FFS!

#20 CrushDigital

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Posted 13 September 2010 - 04:24 PM



I don't think that's the point. For a match Race, the multis are a terrible choice. Multi and wings are neat but the racing will be dull to watch. Tactics will be elementary and the competition will be minimal once one boat is found to be faster. Very bad choice of boats for a match race.


1- AC is not a match race- though it resembles one
2- The BOR sailors were not multihullers. Thay had to learn. Here's how
http://forums.sailin...dpost&p=2771450

The ac is not a match race? Did you watch the finals of ac 32? I think the whole world might disagree with you there. WhT was the biggest margin? 14 seconds?


And this was the result of a rule, the IACC, that had been so thoroughly explored that the differences in the performance potential of the boats at the top end of the fleet were minimal.


I don't think that's the point. For a match Race, the multis are a terrible choice. Multi and wings are neat but the racing will be dull to watch. Tactics will be elementary and the competition will be minimal once one boat is found to be faster. Very bad choice of boats for a match race.


Is this all that different from any other match race involving any other kind of sailboat?
As you say, at least the boat and wings will be neat.


Exactly, the AC has been full of races where it was all over after the starting line. It's part of the history of the Cup for a damned long time. In 1903, Reliance beat Shamrock 3 by so much Lipton retired. It happened with the J's, it happened with the 12M's all the way up until the mid 80's and it happened again with the IACC boats. When TNZ beat Stars and Stripes in '95, the smallest victory margin was 1:50 and the largest 4:14.

But these were the halcyon days...

#21 dogwatch

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Posted 13 September 2010 - 04:25 PM

BMWO just started a pretty significant event for multi's and the sooner you come to grips with that the less miserable you will be.


I'm British, old chap, and I enjoy being miserable

#22 overdraft

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Posted 13 September 2010 - 04:26 PM

So let's say you're a motorcycle guy... You ride a bike, you watch MotoGP... then someone says, hey we can get faster lap times cheaper with cars! Is it OK to run next season's MotoGP in cars now? I'm gonna say no.

So ya, I'm old... America's Cup is for mono's... Little America's cup is for multi's. From that alone, the boat decision for the next AC kills it for me. I've sailed monohulls all my life and AC was always the pinnacle of the sport, but the sport was boats I understand, not multi's.

IMHO they've changed sports. Looking forward to the next VOR... bye!

#23 MR.CLEAN

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Posted 13 September 2010 - 04:41 PM

I'm thinking the average age of AC fans is going to drop by about 15 years over the next couple.

#24 solosail

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Posted 13 September 2010 - 04:46 PM

I'm thinking the average age of AC fans is going to drop by about 15 years over the next couple.


Trading girls and pop idols for the AC? Not even you can belive that the 34th Cup is going to be that good....

#25 jhc

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Posted 13 September 2010 - 04:50 PM


I'm thinking the average age of AC fans is going to drop by about 15 years over the next couple.


Trading girls and pop idols for the AC? Not even you can belive that the 34th Cup is going to be that good....

Only if it's held in San Francisco Bay.

#26 Abbo

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Posted 13 September 2010 - 05:52 PM

So let's say you're a motorcycle guy... You ride a bike, you watch MotoGP... then someone says, hey we can get faster lap times cheaper with cars! Is it OK to run next season's MotoGP in cars now? I'm gonna say no.

So ya, I'm old... America's Cup is for mono's... Little America's cup is for multi's. From that alone, the boat decision for the next AC kills it for me. I've sailed monohulls all my life and AC was always the pinnacle of the sport, but the sport was boats I understand, not multi's.

IMHO they've changed sports. Looking forward to the next VOR... bye!



Well said Overdraft!

#27 solosail

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Posted 13 September 2010 - 07:01 PM


So let's say you're a motorcycle guy... You ride a bike, you watch MotoGP... then someone says, hey we can get faster lap times cheaper with cars! Is it OK to run next season's MotoGP in cars now? I'm gonna say no.

So ya, I'm old... America's Cup is for mono's... Little America's cup is for multi's. From that alone, the boat decision for the next AC kills it for me. I've sailed monohulls all my life and AC was always the pinnacle of the sport, but the sport was boats I understand, not multi's.

IMHO they've changed sports. Looking forward to the next VOR... bye!



Well said Overdraft!


Agreed

#28 sailingorder1

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Posted 13 September 2010 - 08:35 PM



So let's say you're a motorcycle guy... You ride a bike, you watch MotoGP... then someone says, hey we can get faster lap times cheaper with cars! Is it OK to run next season's MotoGP in cars now? I'm gonna say no.

So ya, I'm old... America's Cup is for mono's... Little America's cup is for multi's. From that alone, the boat decision for the next AC kills it for me. I've sailed monohulls all my life and AC was always the pinnacle of the sport, but the sport was boats I understand, not multi's.

IMHO they've changed sports. Looking forward to the next VOR... bye!



Well said Overdraft!


Agreed


i concur!

#29 Filthy Phill

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Posted 13 September 2010 - 08:53 PM

Bugger i was really hoping for mono's.
It's a gamble going with the cats, could go either way i'm guessing.

#30 catsailordude

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Posted 13 September 2010 - 08:58 PM




So let's say you're a motorcycle guy... You ride a bike, you watch MotoGP... then someone says, hey we can get faster lap times cheaper with cars! Is it OK to run next season's MotoGP in cars now? I'm gonna say no.

So ya, I'm old... America's Cup is for mono's... Little America's cup is for multi's. From that alone, the boat decision for the next AC kills it for me. I've sailed monohulls all my life and AC was always the pinnacle of the sport, but the sport was boats I understand, not multi's.

IMHO they've changed sports. Looking forward to the next VOR... bye!



Well said Overdraft!


Agreed


i concur!



Monohull keel boats are not "motorcycles". The motorcyles of the sea are windsurfers and foiling Moths. Racing leaded monohull keelboats is more like racing dump trucks.

As for the VOR, those boats are more like catamarans than regular monohulls: Two daggerboards, two rudders, wide beam, ballast that moves from side to side.

#31 overdraft

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Posted 13 September 2010 - 09:20 PM





So let's say you're a motorcycle guy... You ride a bike, you watch MotoGP... then someone says, hey we can get faster lap times cheaper with cars! Is it OK to run next season's MotoGP in cars now? I'm gonna say no.

So ya, I'm old... America's Cup is for mono's... Little America's cup is for multi's. From that alone, the boat decision for the next AC kills it for me. I've sailed monohulls all my life and AC was always the pinnacle of the sport, but the sport was boats I understand, not multi's.

IMHO they've changed sports. Looking forward to the next VOR... bye!



Well said Overdraft!


Agreed


i concur!



Monohull keel boats are not "motorcycles". The motorcyles of the sea are windsurfers and foiling Moths. Racing leaded monohull keelboats is more like racing dump trucks.

As for the VOR, those boats are more like catamarans than regular monohulls: Two daggerboards, two rudders, wide beam, ballast that moves from side to side.


catsailordude,

unfortunately you are attempting to take my metaphor literally. my point, merely illustrated by my MotoGP example, is that changing to cats from monohulls represents a fundamental shift in the 'vehicle' used to compete. the issue is not what boat is the 'motorcycle of the sea', the issue is that while both cars and motorcycles are 'motorvehicles' and cats and monos are both 'sailboats', they just are not the same kind of thing. over the 100+ years of the AC one can clearly see the evolutionary nature of the boats used to compete and this has helped to provide the AC with a kind of legacy and continuity which will now be lost.

however i agree that the VOR comment was just me being douchey cuz i hate what's just happend to the auld mug!

#32 Trov„o

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Posted 13 September 2010 - 09:21 PM

thanks god the circle jerk is over.

#33 Gorn FRANTIC!!

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Posted 13 September 2010 - 09:27 PM

After showing time and time again what a fucking abysmal monohull team they are, BMWO took the only action possible in hope of hanging on to the cup for another cycle.

#34 Little Bleck

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Posted 13 September 2010 - 09:34 PM

I think cruising hard wings are closer then you think.

#35 spencerogden

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Posted 13 September 2010 - 09:38 PM

Yes, because a gaff rig schooner is the same as a J Class which is the same as a 12-meter. I think engines are a much larger issue that multihulls. I'm glad we'll see fast, efficient catamarans and not brute force, engine assisted monohulls.

The AC has never been specific to the type of boat. If this is how BOR wants to run it, more power to them, they won the right as the holders of the cup to organize how they want within the terms of the deed. If they are as crappy a sailing team as the multihull haters here seem to think, then someone will take the cup from them, and reorganize.

The cup has been through bigger transitions, it will thrive or survive.

#36 willsailforfood

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Posted 13 September 2010 - 09:40 PM

Gee now there's some balanced, well thought out replies. Err they have two hulls and a solid wingsail. That's a completely different concept in any sane persons world. The Americas cup has not been about going as fast as possible ever since the twelve meters appeared. And despite this it is still the pinnacle of the sport. Does sailing need a grandprix circuit in the fastest boats on earth? Absolutely. But start another event, don't go experimenting with the one event that has stood the test if time. Too much change too soon will fuck it up for sure. I quite sure that ac34 will have less than 5 entries. What a fucking JOKE! Are you fools really believing the bullshit RC is pedaling? If they are serious about making a spectacle of it then why the hell would you match race? Fleet racing is ten times more exciting and more fair. It much easier to win a match with a bs advantage than it is to win a fleet race with the same advantage. BMWO have the upper hand now and are keeping it. Shameful behaviour after all their "we are they good guys" rehtoric. The publicists for eb, allinghi and sng must be dancing in the streets!


+1

#37 overdraft

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Posted 13 September 2010 - 09:49 PM

Yes, because a gaff rig schooner is the same as a J Class which is the same as a 12-meter. I think engines are a much larger issue that multihulls. I'm glad we'll see fast, efficient catamarans and not brute force, engine assisted monohulls.

The AC has never been specific to the type of boat. If this is how BOR wants to run it, more power to them, they won the right as the holders of the cup to organize how they want within the terms of the deed. If they are as crappy a sailing team as the multihull haters here seem to think, then someone will take the cup from them, and reorganize.

The cup has been through bigger transitions, it will thrive or survive.


gaffs attained higher and higher aspects and morphed into marconi rigs, and multi stick rigs turned into single sticks as the advances in materials permitted. i contend that there really is an evolutionary not revolutionary progression... i agree that engines should be out. i further agree that the cup will survive, just with very little interest from me. it's lost it's historical cachť and relevance for me.

#38 Trov„o

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Posted 13 September 2010 - 09:53 PM


Yes, because a gaff rig schooner is the same as a J Class which is the same as a 12-meter. I think engines are a much larger issue that multihulls. I'm glad we'll see fast, efficient catamarans and not brute force, engine assisted monohulls.

The AC has never been specific to the type of boat. If this is how BOR wants to run it, more power to them, they won the right as the holders of the cup to organize how they want within the terms of the deed. If they are as crappy a sailing team as the multihull haters here seem to think, then someone will take the cup from them, and reorganize.

The cup has been through bigger transitions, it will thrive or survive.


gaffs attained higher and higher aspects and morphed into marconi rigs, and multi stick rigs turned into single sticks as the advances in materials permitted. i contend that there really is an evolutionary not revolutionary progression... i agree that engines should be out. i further agree that the cup will survive, just with very little interest from me. it's lost it's historical cachť and relevance for me.


+1

#39 willsailforfood

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Posted 13 September 2010 - 09:54 PM


Yes, because a gaff rig schooner is the same as a J Class which is the same as a 12-meter. I think engines are a much larger issue that multihulls. I'm glad we'll see fast, efficient catamarans and not brute force, engine assisted monohulls.

The AC has never been specific to the type of boat. If this is how BOR wants to run it, more power to them, they won the right as the holders of the cup to organize how they want within the terms of the deed. If they are as crappy a sailing team as the multihull haters here seem to think, then someone will take the cup from them, and reorganize.

The cup has been through bigger transitions, it will thrive or survive.


gaffs attained higher and higher aspects and morphed into marconi rigs, and multi stick rigs turned into single sticks as the advances in materials permitted. i contend that there really is an evolutionary not revolutionary progression... i agree that engines should be out. i further agree that the cup will survive, just with very little interest from me. it's lost it's historical cachť and relevance for me.


+2

#40 coxcreek

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Posted 13 September 2010 - 10:01 PM

Most of you here are whingeing pack of old farters.

#41 solosailor

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Posted 13 September 2010 - 10:03 PM

But I'd love to hear how you watch porn on a VHF radio

He didn't say 'radio'...... UHF and VHF were used to broadcast analog television signals in the not to distant past.

#42 CrushDigital

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Posted 13 September 2010 - 10:04 PM

Most of you here are whingeing pack of old farters.


They say the Cup is dead and they want nothing to do with it, but I wonder how many will spend the next three years talking about AC34 anyway. Are we about to see an exodus from this board based on a protocol many commentators have clearly not even bothered to read?

#43 Dave E

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Posted 13 September 2010 - 10:06 PM

I don't think that's the point. For a match Race, the multis are a terrible choice. Multi and wings are neat but the racing will be dull to watch. Tactics will be elementary and the competition will be minimal once one boat is found to be faster. Very bad choice of boats for a match race.


+1

This isn't about prejudice against multihulls. It's about match racing. These boats will be terrible for match racing. No tacking or gybing duels, no dialups--nothing but drag racing.

Any odds on who will be the first sailor to die when one of these ridiculous rigs comes down?

Dave E

#44 CrushDigital

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Posted 13 September 2010 - 10:10 PM


I don't think that's the point. For a match Race, the multis are a terrible choice. Multi and wings are neat but the racing will be dull to watch. Tactics will be elementary and the competition will be minimal once one boat is found to be faster. Very bad choice of boats for a match race.


+1

This isn't about prejudice against multihulls. It's about match racing. These boats will be terrible for match racing. No tacking or gybing duels, no dialups--nothing but drag racing.

Any odds on who will be the first sailor to die when one of these ridiculous rigs comes down?

Dave E


And just what evidence do you have that any of this is true. For the vast majority of the commentariat myself included, exposure to multihulls is limited to that time they rented a cat on a beach while on vacation. Unlike so many here, I'm willing to give these very experienced sailors the benefit of the doubt.

The starts during the LAC were just a preview. I reckon that The more the boats develop and the crews train, the more tactical these races will get.tT

#45 REW

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Posted 13 September 2010 - 10:17 PM

So let's say you're a motorcycle guy... You ride a bike, you watch MotoGP... then someone says, hey we can get faster lap times cheaper with cars! Is it OK to run next season's MotoGP in cars now? I'm gonna say no.

So ya, I'm old... America's Cup is for mono's... Little America's cup is for multi's. From that alone, the boat decision for the next AC kills it for me. I've sailed monohulls all my life and AC was always the pinnacle of the sport, but the sport was boats I understand, not multi's.

IMHO they've changed sports. Looking forward to the next VOR... bye!


You're looking forward to the next VOR...with diesel belching keel canters? Priceless.

#46 Dave E

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Posted 13 September 2010 - 10:19 PM

And just what evidence do you have that any of this is true. For the vast majority of the commentariat myself included, exposure to multihulls is limited to that time they rented a cat on a beach while on vacation. Unlike so many here, I'm willing to give these very experienced sailors the benefit of the doubt.

The starts during the LAC were just a preview. I reckon that The more the boats develop and the crews train, the more tactical these races will get.tT


I watched AC33. The only great thing about it was watching Ernesto get his hat handed to him. As a match race it was a joke.

The best America's Cup ever was Fremantle in '87. The final was an anticlimax, but the LV and defender series were fantastic. And no goofy billion dollar boats that exploded in anything over 20 knots. I expected more from BMWO.

Dave E

#47 LoopyGirdleSniffer

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Posted 13 September 2010 - 10:23 PM

The AC is supposed to be at the pinnacle of the sport. As a mono sailor, I'm not sure "we" can make that claim anymore. Both cats and wings are more efficient at playing the game, and it IS the same game.



Who actually decided that? When, and how?

Shouldn't the Pinnacle be that peak which we all aspire to?
If that's the case I'd guess that there is really only a small
percentage of sailors that desire to be match racers.

So WHO really decided this was the pinnacle?

#48 overdraft

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Posted 13 September 2010 - 10:25 PM


So let's say you're a motorcycle guy... You ride a bike, you watch MotoGP... then someone says, hey we can get faster lap times cheaper with cars! Is it OK to run next season's MotoGP in cars now? I'm gonna say no.

So ya, I'm old... America's Cup is for mono's... Little America's cup is for multi's. From that alone, the boat decision for the next AC kills it for me. I've sailed monohulls all my life and AC was always the pinnacle of the sport, but the sport was boats I understand, not multi's.

IMHO they've changed sports. Looking forward to the next VOR... bye!


You're looking forward to the next VOR...with diesel belching keel canters? Priceless.


o, you decided to hassle me without actually reading thoroughly... to assist your lazy ass i shall quote myself from 5 hours ago...

"however i agree that the VOR comment was just me being douchey cuz i hate what's just happend to the auld mug!" :D

#49 Peelman

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Posted 13 September 2010 - 10:25 PM


The AC is supposed to be at the pinnacle of the sport. As a mono sailor, I'm not sure "we" can make that claim anymore. Both cats and wings are more efficient at playing the game, and it IS the same game.



Who actually decided that? When, and how?

Shouldn't the Pinnacle be that peak which we all aspire to?
If that's the case I'd guess that there is really only a small
percentage of sailors that desire to be match racers.

So WHO really decided this was the pinnacle?


Within the sailing community it's not but to the man on the street, the AC is about the only news they hear of. Hence that's why it's refered to as the pinnacle in the global press and with the non-sailors.

#50 WetHog

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Posted 13 September 2010 - 10:29 PM




it's comical how mono sailors ignore the fact that there are hundreds of thousands of beach cats, racing cats, and cruising cats out there when they go down this line of reasoning.

My god you are such an ignorant fool clean. If the catwhackers are so great then where is their event. Oh it's in 25 foot two man boats. With a fleet if less than ten. And three if them broke on the first day. If you want a multiple hull event then fucking start one!!!!


BMWO just started a pretty significant event for multi's and the sooner you come to grips with that the less miserable you will be. Worked for me.

WetHog


I have come to grips with it. Did you read the title of my thread? The ac is dead!


Yes I read your title and I tried to look past because for something to be considered it must to be a living being at one point. The AC is an elaborate ice water pitcher, hardly something living.

In all seriousness, the Cup is alive and well at the moment. Its future is less in doubt. I did notice you mention you race on a TP52. Do you do that professionally, and if so, are you worried the AC gravy train is gonna leave you in the dust? Maybe you should edit the title of this thread to "THE AC IS A DEAD END FOR ME NOW!". Might be more appropriate.

WetHog

#51 rule69

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Posted 13 September 2010 - 10:31 PM


And just what evidence do you have that any of this is true.


I watched AC33. ... As a match race it was a joke.


Did you watch 29?

#52 LoopyGirdleSniffer

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Posted 13 September 2010 - 10:33 PM



The AC is supposed to be at the pinnacle of the sport. As a mono sailor, I'm not sure "we" can make that claim anymore. Both cats and wings are more efficient at playing the game, and it IS the same game.



Who actually decided that? When, and how?

Shouldn't the Pinnacle be that peak which we all aspire to?
If that's the case I'd guess that there is really only a small
percentage of sailors that desire to be match racers.

So WHO really decided this was the pinnacle?


Within the sailing community it's not but to the man on the street, the AC is about the only news they hear of. Hence that's why it's refered to as the pinnacle in the global press and with the non-sailors.


Maybe 50 years ago.
Maybe in the US.
But not really so now. Not globally anyway.
And I'll accept that the media made it up to
Attract the none sailing public, but it is now
Sailors who have taken up that "It's the Pinnacle" Cheer
And run with it.

#53 CrushDigital

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Posted 13 September 2010 - 10:37 PM



And just what evidence do you have that any of this is true.


I watched AC33. ... As a match race it was a joke.


Did you watch 29?


As I've said many many times now, AC32 was the result boats and crews at the end of a development cycle and AC33 was the complete opposite. In 33 the time pressure was so great just to finish the final modifications to either boat that they never even practiced starts. To hold up AC33 and then say the next Cup will be like that again is to ignore the fact that the boats will be much more similar and the crews will have spent immense amount of time not just learning how to sail them but how to sail them in anger.

#54 Dave E

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Posted 13 September 2010 - 10:43 PM



And just what evidence do you have that any of this is true.


I watched AC33. ... As a match race it was a joke.


Did you watch 29?


Yes. It was obvious that TNZ had the faster boat and Conner & Co. did not have enough time in the Mermaid. Very dull final. The challenger and defender series were interesting except for the fact that TNZ was head and shoulders above everyone else. I was never a big fan of the IACC boats.

Dave E

#55 CrushDigital

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Posted 13 September 2010 - 10:51 PM




And just what evidence do you have that any of this is true.


I watched AC33. ... As a match race it was a joke.


Did you watch 29?


Yes. It was obvious that TNZ had the faster boat and Conner & Co. did not have enough time in the Mermaid. Very dull final. The challenger and defender series were interesting except for the fact that TNZ was head and shoulders above everyone else. I was never a big fan of the IACC boats.

Dave E


So then just what is your point? With the 12M's there were decades of blowouts, same with the international, SCYC and NYYC rules before that.

Your problem with 29 is the same issue that existed with 33 and what the proposed Series will hopefully eliminate in 34.

#56 overdraft

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Posted 13 September 2010 - 10:57 PM

Yes I read your title and I tried to look past because for something to be considered it must to be a living being at one point. The AC is an elaborate ice water pitcher, hardly something living.

In all seriousness, the Cup is alive and well at the moment. Its future is less in doubt. I did notice you mention you race on a TP52. Do you do that professionally, and if so, are you worried the AC gravy train is gonna leave you in the dust? Maybe you should edit the title of this thread to "THE AC IS A DEAD END FOR ME NOW!". Might be more appropriate.

WetHog


OMG! call the internet police! someone has spawned a thread title that contains opinion and isn't fully descriptive and prompts discussion!!!
:P

#57 chocoa

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Posted 13 September 2010 - 10:59 PM

no dead cup-excitement--
---seems to me---
now that Alinghi understands that the wing killed them; they have a leg up on most nearly all the teams with eb's cat developing/building skills.
get a new guy/gal to steer the boat and some of that Persian gulf money.....
--just sayin'

#58 Dave E

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Posted 13 September 2010 - 11:00 PM

My point is that these cats are lousy match racing boats. No tacking or gybing duels. Extremely fragile rigs that will be dangerous in San Francisco Bay. Maybe a spectacle for the uninformed, but not so interesting for match racing fans.

Dave E

#59 WetHog

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Posted 13 September 2010 - 11:03 PM


Yes I read your title and I tried to look past because for something to be considered it must to be a living being at one point. The AC is an elaborate ice water pitcher, hardly something living.

In all seriousness, the Cup is alive and well at the moment. Its future is less in doubt. I did notice you mention you race on a TP52. Do you do that professionally, and if so, are you worried the AC gravy train is gonna leave you in the dust? Maybe you should edit the title of this thread to "THE AC IS A DEAD END FOR ME NOW!". Might be more appropriate.

WetHog


OMG! call the internet police! someone has spawned a thread title that contains opinion and isn't fully descriptive and prompts discussion!!!
:P


Call the internet police on yourself you fucking troll. :lol:

WetHog :ph34r:

#60 CrushDigital

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Posted 13 September 2010 - 11:07 PM

My point is that these cats are lousy match racing boats. No tacking or gybing duels. Extremely fragile rigs that will be dangerous in San Francisco Bay. Maybe a spectacle for the uninformed, but not so interesting for match racing fans.

Dave E


But you don't actually know this, given that the world's collective experience with match racing multi's is AC33 and the various iterations of the LAC. AC33 was a massive mismatch not representatve of what the next Cup match is likely to be and LAC offered some great glimpses at the potential of the platforms.

#61 MR.CLEAN

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Posted 13 September 2010 - 11:07 PM


I'm thinking the average age of AC fans is going to drop by about 15 years over the next couple.


Trading girls and pop idols for the AC? Not even you can belive that the 34th Cup is going to be that good....


No, but to get the average AC fan closer to my generation than my parents' would be good.

#62 overdraft

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Posted 13 September 2010 - 11:07 PM



Yes I read your title and I tried to look past because for something to be considered it must to be a living being at one point. The AC is an elaborate ice water pitcher, hardly something living.

In all seriousness, the Cup is alive and well at the moment. Its future is less in doubt. I did notice you mention you race on a TP52. Do you do that professionally, and if so, are you worried the AC gravy train is gonna leave you in the dust? Maybe you should edit the title of this thread to "THE AC IS A DEAD END FOR ME NOW!". Might be more appropriate.

WetHog


OMG! call the internet police! someone has spawned a thread title that contains opinion and isn't fully descriptive and prompts discussion!!!
:P


Call the internet police on yourself you fucking troll. :lol:

WetHog :ph34r:

hehe... sorry man! couldn't resist!

#63 Finnfart

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Posted 13 September 2010 - 11:13 PM

My point is that these cats are lousy match racing boats. No tacking or gybing duels. Extremely fragile rigs that will be dangerous in San Francisco Bay. Maybe a spectacle for the uninformed, but not so interesting for match racing fans.

Dave E


I think you have nailed it. The it however is not the right "it".

The AC is not inherently about "Match Racing" as we know it. It is about challenging someone to a saiboat race around some buoy's. All the rules and tricks that came about to create "Match Racing" are great, but not inherent to the AC. Doubt the match racing rules even applied until fairly recently... and only were really relevant in the "one design' era.

The AC has all sorts of other great things that make it very interesting. The 'no holds barred' i'm going to make the fastest boat thing comes to mind.

So yes, if you are a "match racing" fan, then you lost your signature event. It is what it is.

If you love to see new technology, and people pushing the limits technically and personally, the new AC should be interesting.

I loved AC33 for the technical and human drama. I hope we get more of that. With luck, the racing will be fairly close, but if not, there are plenty of close events to sate the need. TP52 or WMRT circuits will get some new spectators.

Enjoy them and the AC. You can have it all or pick and choose. We just don't get to choose what sphere the AC will be contested in... cause we didn't win it.

#64 pacice

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Posted 13 September 2010 - 11:19 PM

Just listen to Jimmy Spithill
He is one of the few people who are qualified to comment on racing both mono's and multi's (with wings).
I get the impression he sails the mono's to earn money, and he now really enjoys the multi's.
His last interview with Clean showed the excitement Jimmy is feeling towards the AC72's.

All these people who say they not going to watch it because it's in multi's are Bigot's.
They are making decisions not based on fact or personal experience, but based on the misinformed belief that it's different, therefore it's wrong.
It's their lose, not mine.

Multi owners have been potting up with this attitude, so it's nothing new to us.

#65 overdraft

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Posted 13 September 2010 - 11:44 PM

The AC is not inherently about "Match Racing" as we know it. It is about challenging someone to a saiboat race around some buoy's. All the rules and tricks that came about to create "Match Racing" are great, but not inherent to the AC. Doubt the match racing rules even applied until fairly recently... and only were really relevant in the "one design' era.

So yes, if you are a "match racing" fan, then you lost your signature event. It is what it is.

the AC has been a race between a 'challenger' and a 'defender' since the mid 1800's... so ya, 2 boats race each other. regardless of the rules that sounds like it's been match racing for over 100 years.

so there are those of us who are understandably discouraged that an event which is historically a match race, will now be held in boats which are arguably less suited to that style of racing, and which represent a fundamental departure from the history of the cup. there already was a multihull development class race, if not several... so i'm not sure why they went this way.

#66 bastow

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Posted 14 September 2010 - 01:07 AM

OK, Multihulls are AWESOME, no doubting this. I have sailed on an ORMA 60 tri, and currently race on a 50ft cat and the speed is so so cool.
Doing 40knots down the harbour passing ferries and the like is amazing. Tacking and gybing though, is a drag. A major major part of the Americas Cup or any sailing that involves
Match Racing specifically, or simply two boats "match racing" in fleet race situation.

I have sailed Match Racing right from youth international level to World Match Racing Tour events. As well as keelboats from 20 to 60 ft, from your regular
old 4KSB to 50ft canting keel wing mast racers. And as far as I am concerned this is THE END of the Cup for now. Someday someone may see sense and go back to monohulls.

AC33, the boats are/were amazing, but the racing was only cool for the first 5mins then was fucking boring as hell!! Even the extreme 40racing 8 boats in a small area is only good for the crashes.

People that say IACC boats are shitters, how many monohulls could beat one around the track. I think you would find in most conditions very few. They are amazing pieces of engineering and yes the rule
needed a change, and faster boats would have resulted.

But Cats, in my opinion have taken away the tactical intrgue that was once the Americas Cup, and what a lot of friends of mine were looking set to be part of in the near future.

The Americas Cup is for monohulls, Match Racing is for MONOHULLS.

#67 Finnfart

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Posted 14 September 2010 - 01:13 AM


The AC is not inherently about "Match Racing" as we know it. It is about challenging someone to a saiboat race around some buoy's. All the rules and tricks that came about to create "Match Racing" are great, but not inherent to the AC. Doubt the match racing rules even applied until fairly recently... and only were really relevant in the "one design' era.

So yes, if you are a "match racing" fan, then you lost your signature event. It is what it is.

the AC has been a race between a 'challenger' and a 'defender' since the mid 1800's... so ya, 2 boats race each other. regardless of the rules that sounds like it's been match racing for over 100 years.

so there are those of us who are understandably discouraged that an event which is historically a match race, will now be held in boats which are arguably less suited to that style of racing, and which represent a fundamental departure from the history of the cup. there already was a multihull development class race, if not several... so i'm not sure why they went this way.


You are missing my point. As a one - on - one, it was of course a match, but was not envisioned as "match racing" as we know it. It was not about starting boxes, luffing duels, tacking duels etc. it was about sail the fastest boat around some islands, and then some buoys. We are headed back to more of the original vision. Sorry for the WMRT fans, but fortunately, they can still get their fix there.

Here we have the toy contest between the ultra rich in fast, esoteric, all out machines. I like that too.

#68 overdraft

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Posted 14 September 2010 - 02:10 AM

You are missing my point. As a one - on - one, it was of course a match, but was not envisioned as "match racing" as we know it. It was not about starting boxes, luffing duels, tacking duels etc. it was about sail the fastest boat around some islands, and then some buoys. We are headed back to more of the original vision. Sorry for the WMRT fans, but fortunately, they can still get their fix there.

Here we have the toy contest between the ultra rich in fast, esoteric, all out machines. I like that too.

no, i hear you... but for my entire, rather long, lifetime, it HAS been about tacking duels, cool moves in the prestart, etc. so from my (and i suspect many others)perspective this is a significant departure. those of us who remember the catamaran/big boat mismatch know that in spite of the cat being a better technical solution, it was not an america's cup race. so ya, i guess i'm mourning the loss of what the AC has been for the last 2 or 3 generations of sailors...

#69 CrushDigital

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Posted 14 September 2010 - 02:24 AM

For three generations of sailors the AC has been primarily about blowouts in slow boats (12Ms). The dramatic match races were the exception not the rule

#70 Gingerbread

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Posted 14 September 2010 - 02:26 AM

Racing in rafts? :o .......... RIP A.C. :(

#71 WhiteLightnin'

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Posted 14 September 2010 - 03:45 AM

I have been on the water watching 12 meters sail
I have been on the water and watched IACC boats sail
I tried to keep up with DZ when she was in town and spent some timme in the water following her.

Nothing I have ever seen on the water rivaled watching DZ sail

The America's Cup was originally issued as a Challenge. Bring the biggest and the fastest you've got and try and take it.

Watching video of the X40's is pretty cool.

Being on the waterfront in SF bay and watching a 72' monster with a wing sail taller than the nearby buidings would be EPIC!!

I loved the old AC, the tactical challenges and trying to take a slower boat and beat a slow boat. There were moments that were magic for me in the last 30+ years

The tactical challenge of "can we cross?" at speeds in excess of 25 kts will be heartstopping

The dial up with combined closing speeds of 50+ kts and trying to establish a leeward overlap will be incredible.

It is still a sailboat race. One side of the course is going to be favored. One tack is going to be lifted. They will fight for those edges

I have never sailed a multi hill of any sort ( I did get to stand on DZ at the dock)

Lets see what the future beings

WL

#72 Finnfart

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Posted 14 September 2010 - 05:07 AM


You are missing my point. As a one - on - one, it was of course a match, but was not envisioned as "match racing" as we know it. It was not about starting boxes, luffing duels, tacking duels etc. it was about sail the fastest boat around some islands, and then some buoys. We are headed back to more of the original vision. Sorry for the WMRT fans, but fortunately, they can still get their fix there.

Here we have the toy contest between the ultra rich in fast, esoteric, all out machines. I like that too.

no, i hear you... but for my entire, rather long, lifetime, it HAS been about tacking duels, cool moves in the prestart, etc. so from my (and i suspect many others)perspective this is a significant departure. those of us who remember the catamaran/big boat mismatch know that in spite of the cat being a better technical solution, it was not an america's cup race. so ya, i guess i'm mourning the loss of what the AC has been for the last 2 or 3 generations of sailors...


I'd say we're both on the same page. I'm just choosing to not have a fight with the inevitable.

And I do see some good in it. But as I've said in the past, I will miss the true match racing chess. But I will love the 'top fuel' aspect of what is coming.

#73 maxmini

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Posted 14 September 2010 - 06:27 AM

OK, Multihulls are AWESOME, no doubting this. I have sailed on an ORMA 60 tri, and currently race on a 50ft cat and the speed is so so cool.
Doing 40knots down the harbour passing ferries and the like is amazing. Tacking and gybing though, is a drag. A major major part of the Americas Cup or any sailing that involves
Match Racing specifically, or simply two boats "match racing" in fleet race situation.

I have sailed Match Racing right from youth international level to World Match Racing Tour events. As well as keelboats from 20 to 60 ft, from your regular
old 4KSB to 50ft canting keel wing mast racers. And as far as I am concerned this is THE END of the Cup for now. Someday someone may see sense and go back to monohulls.

AC33, the boats are/were amazing, but the racing was only cool for the first 5mins then was fucking boring as hell!! Even the extreme 40racing 8 boats in a small area is only good for the crashes.

People that say IACC boats are shitters, how many monohulls could beat one around the track. I think you would find in most conditions very few. They are amazing pieces of engineering and yes the rule
needed a change, and faster boats would have resulted.

But Cats, in my opinion have taken away the tactical intrgue that was once the Americas Cup, and what a lot of friends of mine were looking set to be part of in the near future.

The Americas Cup is for monohulls, Match Racing is for MONOHULLS.



Finally an opinion from someone that has actually sailed something close to what is being discussed. I agree with you about the IACC boats being \faster than they looked . I spent two seasons doing the IAAC challenge series in San Fransico bay and we got around faster than any other mono there . Nothing could point with us and we were sailing somewhat detuned rigs in up to 25kts of breeze. I am happy to see that the cup will be in American hands again and for a long time to come or as long as Larry wants it that is :)I just wish the racing would have been better and the turnout larger than what it is going to be .

#74 chuso007

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Posted 14 September 2010 - 06:35 AM

OK, Multihulls are AWESOME, no doubting this. I have sailed on an ORMA 60 tri, and currently race on a 50ft cat and the speed is so so cool.
Doing 40knots down the harbour passing ferries and the like is amazing. Tacking and gybing though, is a drag. A major major part of the Americas Cup or any sailing that involves
Match Racing specifically, or simply two boats "match racing" in fleet race situation.

I have sailed Match Racing right from youth international level to World Match Racing Tour events. As well as keelboats from 20 to 60 ft, from your regular
old 4KSB to 50ft canting keel wing mast racers. And as far as I am concerned this is THE END of the Cup for now. Someday someone may see sense and go back to monohulls.

AC33, the boats are/were amazing, but the racing was only cool for the first 5mins then was fucking boring as hell!! Even the extreme 40racing 8 boats in a small area is only good for the crashes.

People that say IACC boats are shitters, how many monohulls could beat one around the track. I think you would find in most conditions very few. They are amazing pieces of engineering and yes the rule
needed a change, and faster boats would have resulted.

But Cats, in my opinion have taken away the tactical intrgue that was once the Americas Cup, and what a lot of friends of mine were looking set to be part of in the near future.

The Americas Cup is for monohulls, Match Racing is for MONOHULLS.



+1000

#75 Gintonic

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Posted 14 September 2010 - 06:52 AM

As a match racing fan I have to agree with the opener, I'm afraid it will be boring as hell to watch the cats sail around the course. Speed isn't interesting in itself, how fun is it to watch an airplane fly by? What is fun to look at is close racing and tactics, and we are perhaps unlikely to see much of that. I hope I'm wrong though.

Americas's cup is any way falling behind two upcoming competitors - VOR and WMRT. I think this recent decision will speed up the decline...

#76 Turkey Slapper

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Posted 14 September 2010 - 07:02 AM

The tactic's will be great!

Drag race to the lay line!

1 and a half minute tack!

Drag race again!

Yeah cant wait!

NOT!

Cats were designed for resort hire boats!

Give me a fleet of Opti's to watch, more excitement there!

Now there is an idea!

Opti AC!

#77 Samin

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Posted 14 September 2010 - 07:29 AM

OK, Multihulls are AWESOME, no doubting this. I have sailed on an ORMA 60 tri,and currently race on a 50ft cat and the speed is so so cool.
Doing 40knots down the harbour passing ferries and the like is amazing. Tackingand gybing though, is a drag. A major major part of the Americas Cup or anysailing that involves
Match Racing specifically, or simply two boats "match racing" infleet race situation.

I have sailed Match Racing right from youth international level to World MatchRacing Tour events. As well as keelboats from 20 to 60 ft, from your regular

old 4KSB to 50ft canting keel wing mast racers. And as far as I am concernedthis is THE END of the Cup for now. Someday someone may see sense and go backto monohulls.


AC33, the boats are/were amazing, but the racing was only cool for the first5mins then was fucking boring as hell!! Even the extreme 40racing 8 boats in asmall area is only good for the crashes.

People that say IACC boats are shitters, how many monohulls could beat onearound the track. I think you would find in most conditions very few. They areamazing pieces of engineering and yes the rule

needed a change, and faster boats would have resulted.


But Cats, in my opinion have taken away the tactical intrgue that was once theAmericas Cup, and what a lot of friends of mine were looking set to be part ofin the near future.

The Americas Cup is for monohulls, Match Racing is for MONOHULLS.


Well bastow im also in my mid 20s and I also done fair bit international Match Racing from a youth level and also over 75 coastal and harbour races on Trimarans and Cats from 24ft to 55ft including the 50ft cat you race on.




how many races you done on multis? 4?



I cant wait to see multi's in the cup, its going to be far more exciting that those old pieces of shit monos.



I dont know how many races In the last mono cup I watched and they had no tacking or gybing duels,no chance of passing because theyre so slow, and fucken boring! just try and sit thru a whole race, nearly impossible for me whos interested let alone non matchracing sailing public or even worse the non sailing public, it just puts themoff sailing how slow they go!



at least in multis youcan get a increase or change in breeze and the lead can change at the last minute, the race aint over till its over.



Just because you havedone 4 races on an untuned 50ft cat that doesnt tack very well doesnt mean you a multi expert bro



Also have you ever seen or done match racing in a multi to be such an expert at how boring it will be?

#78 Samin

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Posted 14 September 2010 - 07:41 AM

The tactic's will be great!

Drag race to the lay line!

1 and a half minute tack!

Drag race again!

Yeah cant wait!

NOT!

Cats were designed for resort hire boats!

Give me a fleet of Opti's to watch, more excitement there!

Now there is an idea!

Opti AC!


hey TS
have you ever actually watched any multi racing?
iv attached a "boring" photo for you to whinge about from our last Winter race at the Royal New Zealand Yacht Squadron.
2 cats finished an hour and a half long race 1 second apart after a tacking duel up the harbour.
pull your fucken head in

see results for "race14 multis"
http://www.rnzys.org...54/Default.aspx

The old retired mono sailors on the race committee have also said many times how great it is they get to finally watch some exciting racing now the multis are with the RNZYS

Attached Files



#79 Abbo

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Posted 14 September 2010 - 07:52 AM

Wethog. Another fine argument you've formed there... Alive, dead, and now you are suggesting that the change to cats is somehow going to affect my income. Please stop boring us with your childish remarks based on supposition.†

The ac has always been the pinacle of yachting, match racing, and design. I, like many others, love the cup for what it is and want it to continue in the same way.

All you silly catwhackers have taken my post as some sort of personal attack on pickleforks, which it quite clearly is not. These new cats will quite obviously be some of the most awesome sailing machines ever seen. They deserve their own event. A fleet racing world touring event. Ala formulae 1. If bmwo were serious about making it exciting and good for
Television then the event would be held on kite boards. So all you cat lovers please stfu†because you are not even close to being the fastest, most exciting thing on the water.

Hijacking a 150 year old match racing event for this type of boat will do no one any good. Mark my words. This whole idea will fail in less than 5 years. And possibly even before the first event. Let's see how many teams pony up with the cash in a months time! The while event is heavily biased to bmwo. And I think a lot of the major teams will vote with their feet.

#80 Red Dolphin

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Posted 14 September 2010 - 07:52 AM

TS congratrulations for being so worldly and knowing more about whats good for the cup than Larry, Russel and Co.

You obviously wouldn't know shit from clay.

I saw more overtaking in one little amercias cup race than i saw in a week of challenger trials in Valencia.

All i can say about you guys that are so fucking upset about monohulls not being chosen for the cup is. SUCK SHIT!

The sport doesnt need your prehistoric opinions and attitudes any way. So you can just fuck off.

The tactic's will be great!

Drag race to the lay line!

1 and a half minute tack!

Drag race again!

Yeah cant wait!

NOT!

Cats were designed for resort hire boats!

Give me a fleet of Opti's to watch, more excitement there!

Now there is an idea!

Opti AC!



#81 Wandering Geo

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Posted 14 September 2010 - 08:09 AM

To paraphrase Mark Twain, rumours of the Cups death are greatly exaggerated (IMHO).
2 of 33 have already been won by winged multi-hulls.
AC34 will make 3.
Whenever there has been an option of multi or mono as an AC boat, the multi has won. Easily!
Therefore multis are clearly the best AC boats to date :) (Aren't statistics fun)
The ballasted dinosaurs not willing to even give the box rule multis a chance are almost laughable.
Surely if the AC34 is a complete failure (as so many seem to want) then AC35 will quickly revert to ponderous boats more in tune with the dinosaur mentality.

How about everyone take a deep breath and see how things develop.

Personally, after the LAC, I cannot wait to see what some serious $$ mean for wing sail development.

#82 Angazi

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Posted 14 September 2010 - 08:10 AM

I agree that the AC is dead as we know(knew) it. The multi's will be awesome machines in a straight line - the guile and deception of MATCHING your wits against the opponent is what makes for a good spectacle - gives the TV commentators something to talk about. With this AC72 rule cat boats, the cheapest and most likely outcome would be for the designers to merely submit their designs to the AC commitee VPP software and declare the winner there and then.
These two classes of boats will be like trying to compare top fuel dragsters with Formula 1.
Not suprising that the 45' "test" boats are being made in NZ, I wonder if Russell Coutts has shares in the manufacturer.

Get back to racing !!!!!!

#83 Oneyoti

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Posted 14 September 2010 - 08:43 AM

I don't think that's the point. For a match Race, the multis are a terrible choice. Multi and wings are neat but the racing will be dull to watch. Tactics will be elementary and the competition will be minimal once one boat is found to be faster. Very bad choice of boats for a match race.


A perfect summary entirely. If you want multi's and wings, then surely the AC should be about a series of fleet races NOT match races, at least that might make it a bit more iNteresting for the spectator, once they have got over: "oooohhhhh look at those kool boats!!!!

Match Racing + Multis = Madness

Whatever next:

Jumbo Jets for hang gliding?

Ducati's for the Tour de France?

#84 eric e

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Posted 14 September 2010 - 08:56 AM

Ducati's for the Tour de France?


engines were alinghi's contribution to the ac

thank god they've gone

a better bitch would be

"recumbent bicycles for the tour de france?"

and i'd be all for that too

if they could get the buggers up the mountains faster than the diamond frame

#85 Turkey Slapper

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Posted 14 September 2010 - 09:12 AM


The tactic's will be great!

Drag race to the lay line!

1 and a half minute tack!

Drag race again!

Yeah cant wait!

NOT!

Cats were designed for resort hire boats!

Give me a fleet of Opti's to watch, more excitement there!

Now there is an idea!

Opti AC!


hey TS
have you ever actually watched any multi racing?
iv attached a "boring" photo for you to whinge about from our last Winter race at the Royal New Zealand Yacht Squadron.
2 cats finished an hour and a half long race 1 second apart after a tacking duel up the harbour.
pull your fucken head in

see results for "race14 multis"
http://www.rnzys.org...54/Default.aspx

The old retired mono sailors on the race committee have also said many times how great it is they get to finally watch some exciting racing now the multis are with the RNZYS



Well fuck me!

1 Close finish!

Woo Hoo!

Im Sold now! :rolleyes:

The last AC show down between multis was close hey!

Cant wait!

:lol:

The fleet is huge allready!

Attached Files



#86 JimC

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Posted 14 September 2010 - 09:59 AM

As a match racing fan I have to agree with the opener, I'm afraid it will be boring as hell to watch the cats sail around the course.

Well we're all different. Match racing bores me rigid most of the time...

how fun is it to watch an airplane fly by?

Depends on the airplane... I've never stopped running for the window when I hear a Merlin engine growl overhead, and round here the majority always looked up when you felt the ground shake from a Concorde's afterburners...

#87 williwaw

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Posted 14 September 2010 - 10:03 AM

The choice of boat was done after consulting all other teams, it seems to me that apart from that Italian (allready forgot his name) non of the teams are happy with cats. So I do not know who they consulted but it surely wasn't an AC team. So up for boring layline sailing if any team will show up that is to say.

#88 Paddy O

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Posted 14 September 2010 - 10:04 AM

The tactic's will be great!

Drag race to the lay line!

1 and a half minute tack!

Drag race again!

Yeah cant wait!

NOT!

Cats were designed for resort hire boats!

Give me a fleet of Opti's to watch, more excitement there!

Now there is an idea!

Opti AC!



Where have you guys been?
Have you not seen what the French have been up to for years.
The sport of yachting is huge in France, led by multihulls

Have a look at this link (hope it works...)

HiQ Orma 60s

#89 Chocko

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Posted 14 September 2010 - 10:11 AM

Nice quote

The monosluggers kicked us out of the Olympics and the multis repayed them by taking over the AC. Poetic justice if there ever was one !

Absolutely brilliant.

--------


Not mine, but I was thinking this

#90 dogwatch

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Posted 14 September 2010 - 10:19 AM

The sport of yachting is huge in France, led by multihulls


That's questionable. Biggest sailing event in France - probably the Vendee Globe. Monohulls. Possibly the most interesting - MiniTransat. Monohulls. Next best known - Tour de Voile. Monohulls. Or maybe the Figaro. Monohulls.

For sure France is the leading country for ocean-going multis but to paint them as the dominant form of sailing in France is not accurate.

#91 josselin

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Posted 14 September 2010 - 10:32 AM

Hi all,

The cup is not dead, but the cup wants to get rid off her old monsters ( heavy IACC and old fans)
I am 30, i am french, I love multihull and kitesurf... AC 34 is for me!!

Racing in "big" Multihull has been done in France for a while now.
In 85/90's there was the inshore formule 40 class
In 90 the clarefontaine trophee on 25feet cats introduced amazing regatta close to spectators ( they have just celebrated 20th birth day event last week with Loic Peyron winning for the 8th time)
in 95/2000 the orma 60 and grand prix circuit was incredibles
All those class were not one design but the race were close and far more interesting than IACC at 8knts with a rugby team onboard...
Then arrived the Xtrem 40 that did not invent anything just brings multihull regattas under the international lights.

AC34 is just the next step

But AC34 will need old fans $$ to finance the team that is where teh issue is...

i keep my finger crossed to see more that 4 teams at the next cup!!

#92 Paddy O

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Posted 14 September 2010 - 10:37 AM


The sport of yachting is huge in France, led by multihulls


That questionable. Biggest sailing event in France - probably the Vendee Globe. Monohulls. Possibly the most interesting - MiniTransat. Monohulls. Next best known - Tour de Voile. Monohulls. Or maybe the Figaro. Monohulls.

For sure France is the leading country for ocean-going multis but to paint them as the dominant form of sailing in France is not accurate.


So their 'big boat' sailing is led by multihulls...
Take a walk around the teams there.
(I haven't counted how many rafts vs monohulls there are in the country)
Their top professional teams have run multihulls for much of the last decade +
Sure the Orma 60 circuit ran out of steam/money in 2006.
Times change / the teams' focus changed


My point is that multihull sailing is fast, exciting and specatators will get to see good racing / good tv.

The guys in this forum who are bagging the 'match' racing ability of rafts haven't raced them, and most certainly haven't considered what will happen once we get a half dozen professional teams get stuck into them.

#93 dogwatch

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Posted 14 September 2010 - 10:45 AM

So their 'big boat' sailing is led by multihulls...


But it isn't. I've reeled off a list of high media profile monohull events, notably the Vendee Globe which is now arguably the most followed ocean race in the world.

#94 Samin

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Posted 14 September 2010 - 10:46 AM

My point is that multihull sailing is fast, exciting and specatators will get to see good racing / good tv.

The guys in this forum who are bagging the 'match' racing ability of rafts haven't raced them, and most certainly haven't considered what will happen once we get a half dozen professional teams get stuck into them.


+1




#95 DRTB2

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Posted 14 September 2010 - 11:04 AM

As I see it the difficulty with all the "visions" is that they require a particular "formula" and class of boat and that always detracts from the intent of the Deed which was "bring your best boat". It would have been a much more radical move for LE and CoR simply to have declared AC34 as either monos or multis and left the rest to the potential challengers and the Deed. Give the defender 10 months notice of your intended design and come to the races with your best boat. Now if the only decision taken by the defender and CoR had been between monos and multis the resulting races would be radical and exciting because of the variety of designs regardless of the number of hulls. So, all the "vision" thing is about is consolidation of profit. But I guess we all know that! Shame.

#96 hump101

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Posted 14 September 2010 - 11:07 AM

We really do need to wait and see. Nobody anywhere has sailed a cat optimised for matchracing. Both the AC DoG boats and LAC boats are only set up for maximum efficiency, as that is what gets you round the course best when the course is greater than a certain length. If it is short, however, the game changes, and getting penalties will come into play. With only very small compromises to absolute efficiency, the wing cats can be made to sail 15kts BACKWARDS, and spin on a dime, making a whole new world of prestarts †and penalties available.

This could well be the making of match racing, not the death of the AC



#97 Chocko

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Posted 14 September 2010 - 11:08 AM


My point is that multihull sailing is fast, exciting and specatators will get to see good racing / good tv.

The guys in this forum who are bagging the 'match' racing ability of rafts haven't raced them, and most certainly haven't considered what will happen once we get a half dozen professional teams get stuck into them.


+1




+2

#98 PauloAs

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Posted 14 September 2010 - 11:15 AM

There will always be those who refuse to look forward. Sports, and the equipments used in them naturally evolve, for that is the nature of competition: edge. The one who has it, wins. Or do you think Rafa Nadal would have conquered the US Open playing with a wooden racket stringed with gut? Or Fernando Alonso win at Monza using a manual/standard gear shifter? For that there are the so called "classic" events.
Stop looking backwards dude! The AC will live on and get more exciting than ever.

#99 Alpha FB

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Posted 14 September 2010 - 11:20 AM

I don't get the multihull bashers... AC boats stopped having anything to do with what I sail (the ur-4ktsb a Folkboat) a long time ago (about 1983). Since Australia II's winged keel, keelboats have ceased to exist as far as I am concerned. All monohull racing since then has been in what I call ballasted dinghies - just a flat planing hull with a huge chunk of deadweight underneath instead of crew on the rail or the trapeze. And then, since the VOR started it's circus, where a boat doesn't even need to complete a circumnavigation to 'finish' the race, any kind of modern monohull racing bores the hell out of me...

And where I can appreciate at least to some extent the effectiveness of an Open 60, and the heroism of single handing these machines around the globe, the hulls of latest generation of IACC's were UGLY. I mean the kind of ugly that should be buried quickly somewhere in a dark corner of a remote forest, to avoid injuring the eyes of anyone looking at them.

For me AC33 was an incredible breath of fresh air (at least boat wise - the legal wrangling was fascinating, but shouldn't have to be part of even a DoG match). Clean sheet of paper, different starting points by either team, and then the development cycle over a matter of months to optimise the boats... just to develop the fastest thing that fits a given waterline length ! This is where the Cup started in 1851, and where the matches started after the DoG in 1870.

The idea of exploring this road further is fascinating.

All I can say is that I seem to detect a lot of sour grapes in the comments of the critics. A lot of people who had dreams or delusions that they were not that far from the America's Cup, all of a sudden discover they are experts in the field of dinosaurs...

Certainly, some of the 'established' AC teams will not be able to make the transition,
a revolution like this means a lot of people are going to have to change their game.

B
ut the new format might just as easily attract new teams, that already have been building experience in multihulls, with or without wings


#100 Tornado_ALIVE

Tornado_ALIVE

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Posted 14 September 2010 - 11:44 AM

:lol:

The Cup is not dead, it has come alive. Move over dead wood and those who enjoy living in the past, our sport does not need you and you will soon be forgotten. I said before AC33 that this is only the begining of Multies in the AC. AC44 shows us Multies will continue. Question is, will it ever return to lead slugs.

And for those who say you can't match race Multies and only bang the corners, I am not going to try and convince you that you know jack $hit. Just grab some of these and move aside as the sailing world passes you by.

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