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#101 Jake

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Posted 14 September 2010 - 12:30 PM

Sailing....the only sport where the "enlightened" are happy to race slowly. No wonder the public doesn't get it and our sport is dying.

#102 JimC

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Posted 14 September 2010 - 12:54 PM

Sailing....the only sport where the "enlightened" are happy to race slowly.


Name a sport where there's unrestricted equipment to go fast... grief, even in swimming they're talking about banning high tech swimming costumes...

#103 dogwatch

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Posted 14 September 2010 - 01:07 PM

Sailing....the only sport where the "enlightened" are happy to race slowly. No wonder the public doesn't get it and our sport is dying.


Sorry to hear your sport is dying. Ours isn't. Maybe you should concern yourself with how your club interacts with schools and other parts of the local community to encourage young sailors, or how your national governing body helps develop the elite sailors of tomorrow. The AC has sod all to do with the health of the sport one way or the other.

#104 Tony-F18

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Posted 14 September 2010 - 01:09 PM

A tight boxrules as BMWO has declared is a great recipe for very close racing!
I do quite a lot of F18 racing (also a restricted boxrule) and am always surprised how close the performance of the boats actually are, at the end of the day it is always the best teams that wins and not the best boat.
You could spend an hour beating upwind and never be more then a boatlength apart at every crossing.
Those expecting a dragrace will be very disappointed, I think AC34 could take matchracing to a whole new level as well.

#105 Alpha FB

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Posted 14 September 2010 - 01:10 PM

Sailing....the only sport where the "enlightened" are happy to race slowly.


Name a sport where there's unrestricted equipment to go fast... grief, even in swimming they're talking about banning high tech swimming costumes...


You can perfectly well have some restrictions and still be fast... for instance, Formula 1 is pretty bloody fast, but incredibly overregulated

The point Jake makes is why would you deliberately want to race something you KNOW is not fast...

#106 Presuming Ed

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Posted 14 September 2010 - 01:23 PM

The point Jake makes is why would you deliberately want to race something you KNOW is not fast...

Um, because you enjoy it?

#107 icepack

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Posted 14 September 2010 - 01:39 PM

I'm thinking the average age of AC fans is going to drop by about 15 years over the next couple.


I guess you are right - take out 80% of the existing (solid) fan base and replace it with fast paced kids with an attention span that only reaches to the next tweet but who have a growing discretionary income and are great advertising targets. Great strategy if you want to make money - now AC stands for "Advertising Competition". Has nothing to do with what your existing fan base likes ...

Well - there have always been multihull events, they are great - not my cup of tea - but surely many people will like it. So the AC was "ours" (monohull match racing fans) for 159 years, now it's "their's" (multihull speed-drag-racing fans). Again - not my cup of tea, so I will move on.

This is like telling an F1 fan that they will shut down F1 just because racing planes is faster. Great for guys who race planes, but I did like F1. So I will not automatically become a plane racing fan just because they are faster and the organizers tell me to like it.

Good luck with your multihull speed-drag-racing AC - I am sure you'll find new fans. Too bad that you had to kill a great other event for this!

#108 Experimental

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Posted 14 September 2010 - 01:49 PM

The point Jake makes is why would you deliberately want to race something you KNOW is not fast...


Ever heard of a restrictor plate?

#109 LoopyGirdleSniffer

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Posted 14 September 2010 - 01:53 PM


Sailing....the only sport where the "enlightened" are happy to race slowly.


Name a sport where there's unrestricted equipment to go fast... grief, even in swimming they're talking about banning high tech swimming costumes...


You can perfectly well have some restrictions and still be fast... for instance, Formula 1 is pretty bloody fast, but incredibly overregulated

The point Jake makes is why would you deliberately want to race something you KNOW is not fast...


By your argument why does anyone sail at all. Your kid (assuming you have one or at least know one) can go faster on his bicycle than all but the FASTEST of sail boats. And the fastest don't actually race. They go for speed records in one direction in very limited sailing conditions. So why do you bother to race a sailboat if it's only about speed?

#110 Alpha FB

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Posted 14 September 2010 - 02:55 PM


Sailing....the only sport where the "enlightened" are happy to race slowly.


Name a sport where there's unrestricted equipment to go fast... grief, even in swimming they're talking about banning high tech swimming costumes...


You can perfectly well have some restrictions and still be fast... for instance, Formula 1 is pretty bloody fast, but incredibly overregulated

The point Jake makes is why would you deliberately want to race something you KNOW is not fast...


OK got your points, racing can be fun even in not the fastest whatever - point I wanted to make is you don't need 'unrestricted equipment' to still go fast...

I fully grasp the fun in racing something that's old and slow, be it a 1940 design folkboat, or a 1930's Bugatti racing car.

To continue the analogy with motor racing, I think the cross roads the AC is at now is comparable to what happened in F1 1959, when all of a sudden, unconventional cars with rear-mounted engines started winning all the races, condemning the traditional front engined roadsters to the dustbin of history - loads of people were whining back then as well about how a rear engined car wasn't a proper race car..

yet, how many front engined cars still race in Formula 1 ?

#111 Jake

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Posted 14 September 2010 - 02:57 PM



Sailing....the only sport where the "enlightened" are happy to race slowly.


Name a sport where there's unrestricted equipment to go fast... grief, even in swimming they're talking about banning high tech swimming costumes...


You can perfectly well have some restrictions and still be fast... for instance, Formula 1 is pretty bloody fast, but incredibly overregulated

The point Jake makes is why would you deliberately want to race something you KNOW is not fast...


By your argument why does anyone sail at all. Your kid (assuming you have one or at least know one) can go faster on his bicycle than all but the FASTEST of sail boats. And the fastest don't actually race. They go for speed records in one direction in very limited sailing conditions. So why do you bother to race a sailboat if it's only about speed?


Poop on a stick, man. They're all sailboats. Some like to go faster than others and if you guys are happy with your slow stuff I personally don't fault you. It just really surprises me that you guys wouldn't look at them and admire them like the efficient machines they are but, instead, choose to refute obvious facts about their racing and handling abilities. Racing multi's is not "drag racing". Racing is very tactical and they transition incredibly well when done correctly. Boat handling is more difficult because it's lighter and wider - you're not going to jump on it without any experience and make clean tacks, gybes, or roundings - it takes considerable effort to master but is part of what it takes to be great on one. You guys really should get out on an F18, A-cat, or an old Hobie and take it for a spin. You might just overcome and understand several of the false conclusions you're adjudicating. I mean that will all seriousness. I race both monohulls and multis and know the differences.

#112 LoopyGirdleSniffer

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Posted 14 September 2010 - 03:20 PM




Sailing....the only sport where the "enlightened" are happy to race slowly.


Name a sport where there's unrestricted equipment to go fast... grief, even in swimming they're talking about banning high tech swimming costumes...


You can perfectly well have some restrictions and still be fast... for instance, Formula 1 is pretty bloody fast, but incredibly overregulated

The point Jake makes is why would you deliberately want to race something you KNOW is not fast...


By your argument why does anyone sail at all. Your kid (assuming you have one or at least know one) can go faster on his bicycle than all but the FASTEST of sail boats. And the fastest don't actually race. They go for speed records in one direction in very limited sailing conditions. So why do you bother to race a sailboat if it's only about speed?


Poop on a stick, man. They're all sailboats. Some like to go faster than others and if you guys are happy with your slow stuff I personally don't fault you. It just really surprises me that you guys wouldn't look at them and admire them like the efficient machines they are but, instead, choose to refute obvious facts about their racing and handling abilities. Racing multi's is not "drag racing". Racing is very tactical and they transition incredibly well when done correctly. Boat handling is more difficult because it's lighter and wider - you're not going to jump on it without any experience and make clean tacks, gybes, or roundings - it takes considerable effort to master but is part of what it takes to be great on one. You guys really should get out on an F18, A-cat, or an old Hobie and take it for a spin. You might just overcome and understand several of the false conclusions you're adjudicating. I mean that will all seriousness. I race both monohulls and multis and know the differences.


I have nothing against Multihulls. I sail and race in a Unimaran because: 1. it was the only choice available to me where I sail. 2. I've grown very comfortable in them. While I've always been fascinated by Trimarans I wouldn't want to own one or really race on one, but would love to take one up and down the coast here on a fun blast reach on a Saturday afternoon and then go back to racing my Unimaran on Sundays.

Sailing is sailing and I was simply pointing out to the idiot that asked why you would race something slow that ALL SAILBOATS ARE SLOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! every single one of them. Dogzilla was slow, it was just less slow than A5. Hydropteer is slow, just less slow than most other sailboats.
When racing speed is relative.

I LOVED watching the LAC. But honestly my fascination of the LAC has nothing to do with match racing. It was watching amazing marvels of technology. Just the same as my fascination with AC33. I freaking got up everyday at 2:30am just to make sure I didn't miss it. Why? Cause the boats were Awesome freaks of sailing nature!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I don't particularly like match racing, not participating or watching (and I've done both). BUT I'll always watch the AC. Because the boats were cooler than anything I'd ever get to race on, and still are(and I've raced Ex-Whitbread Maxi's). It's a part of our sport, but it's not the Pinnacle of our sport. To me the Volvo and Vendee are. If they do "The Race" again I'll include that in my list.

#113 Loon

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Posted 14 September 2010 - 03:22 PM

Seems to me the real issue isn't which type of boat, but whether the choice of multis makes it inevitable that SF will NOT be chosen as venue. That would be the real shame - especially for an American team..

#114 MR.CLEAN

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Posted 14 September 2010 - 03:51 PM


So their 'big boat' sailing is led by multihulls...


But it isn't. I've reeled off a list of high media profile monohull events, notably the Vendee Globe which is now arguably the most followed ocean race in the world.


Your numbers are off. Biggest spectator sailing event in France - BY FAR - is the start of the Route Du Rhum, which includes monos and multis, and this year the G-Class multis for the first time. Just under a million spectators at the start in '09, live television coverage throughout the country, and so on.

#115 OldScowGuy

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Posted 14 September 2010 - 04:01 PM

Ok, silly question: If DZ and A5 had raced in SF, legs limited to 3nm, total distance the same, how close might it have been? Why?

#116 dogwatch

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Posted 14 September 2010 - 04:37 PM



So their 'big boat' sailing is led by multihulls...


But it isn't. I've reeled off a list of high media profile monohull events, notably the Vendee Globe which is now arguably the most followed ocean race in the world.


Your numbers are off. Biggest spectator sailing event in France - BY FAR - is the start of the Route Du Rhum, which includes monos and multis, and this year the G-Class multis for the first time. Just under a million spectators at the start in '09, live television coverage throughout the country, and so on.


Wasn't talking just France. Vendee Globe has skippers from several countries and is widely followed in Europe. Good grief there was even an American last time though few seemed to notice.

#117 MR.CLEAN

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Posted 14 September 2010 - 04:52 PM




So their 'big boat' sailing is led by multihulls...


But it isn't. I've reeled off a list of high media profile monohull events, notably the Vendee Globe which is now arguably the most followed ocean race in the world.


Your numbers are off. Biggest spectator sailing event in France - BY FAR - is the start of the Route Du Rhum, which includes monos and multis, and this year the G-Class multis for the first time. Just under a million spectators at the start in '09, live television coverage throughout the country, and so on.


Wasn't talking just France. Vendee Globe has skippers from several countries and is widely followed in Europe. Good grief there was even an American last time though few seemed to notice.


Got it. Interestingly, our research indicated that were it not for the incredible success of the Volvo Ocean Race Game, the VG website would actually have been higher-ranked worldwide than the VOR site. The game site was higher-ranked than either.

But AC34 will blow all that out of the water, likely by an order of magnitude. Until you look at search and server logs, you truly do not understand just how powerful the term "America's Cup" is when it comes to this sport. Nothing else comes close, and god help all the servers when there is a major crash and/or someone gets impaled by some carbon. Bring it on, says I.

#118 Experimental

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Posted 14 September 2010 - 07:32 PM

and/or someone gets impaled by some carbon. Bring it on, says I.


Hoping for damage is one thing as long as the proper precautions are taken to protect the sailors, but outright hoping for injuries is in slightly poor taste, especially in the wake of a fatal accident on the racecourse. I'm looking forward to watching this cup despite my misgivings, but I think all that serious accidents will do is turn the event into some sort of Road Warrior freakshow in the eyes of most casual observers. Some people like to watch NASCAR for the crashes, but few people say "I hope I get to see Jeff Gordon take a steering column to the gut today!"

It's only fun to watch if everyone goes home in one piece at the end of the day, and to me this "hoping for crashes" business could really end in tragedy if we're not careful.

#119 Trovão

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Posted 14 September 2010 - 07:33 PM


I'm thinking the average age of AC fans is going to drop by about 15 years over the next couple.


I guess you are right - take out 80% of the existing (solid) fan base and replace it with fast paced kids with an attention span that only reaches to the next tweet but who have a growing discretionary income and are great advertising targets. Great strategy if you want to make money - now AC stands for "Advertising Competition". Has nothing to do with what your existing fan base likes ...

Well - there have always been multihull events, they are great - not my cup of tea - but surely many people will like it. So the AC was "ours" (monohull match racing fans) for 159 years, now it's "their's" (multihull speed-drag-racing fans). Again - not my cup of tea, so I will move on.

This is like telling an F1 fan that they will shut down F1 just because racing planes is faster. Great for guys who race planes, but I did like F1. So I will not automatically become a plane racing fan just because they are faster and the organizers tell me to like it.

Good luck with your multihull speed-drag-racing AC - I am sure you'll find new fans. Too bad that you had to kill a great other event for this!


so, let's see if i've got your point right.

comparing monohulls x multihulls (both of them are boats) is like comparing f1 (car) x airplanes?

apples and oranges, anyone?

#120 Chocko

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Posted 14 September 2010 - 10:12 PM

It is the technical aspect of F1 that sees the geeks etc interested in F1
It is the fashion aspect of F1 that brings the socialites to F1
The racing [read entertainment] that brings the majority to F1. F1 is the 4th largest economy in the world, and the AC could certainly topple that.

Comparing an F1 car with anything other than an indy car is apples /oranges. they could drive on an inverted surface at 100 klm/hr with the downforce developed by an F1 car.

Seeing a boat do over 20 knots of speed in 10 knots of wind will bring the geeks.
Seeing expensive boats will bring expensive people in expensive clothes, wanting to be associated with"money"
the racing will happen, and we will have to wait and see what happens before we can speculate.

Comparing a Mono to a Multi is like comparing a Mono to a Multi, both factions hate each other, and will never agree, like political parties.

#121 pogen

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Posted 14 September 2010 - 10:20 PM

and god help all the servers when there is a major crash and/or someone gets impaled by some carbon. Bring it on, says I.



Are the servers also made of carbon?

#122 Tommyboomer

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Posted 14 September 2010 - 10:48 PM

Well done LE and EB, you just made Ernie look like a good guy! What a fucking circus. What are we all supposed to go out and buy wing sailed cats now? Don't think that will work in my local marina. I live in one if those weird places where it can be windy at night. Good way to distance yourself from your core group of fans, chose a style of boat which it seriously impractical and out of reach for 99.9% of the fan base. I've supported LE and RC right through this last cycle, but they are dead to me now, and so is the Americas Cup.



What an ACC boat has to do with Beer Can racing is less than zero. AC should be about something the average sailor will never be on.

#123 Bulbhunter

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Posted 14 September 2010 - 10:54 PM


Well done LE and EB, you just made Ernie look like a good guy! What a fucking circus. What are we all supposed to go out and buy wing sailed cats now? Don't think that will work in my local marina. I live in one if those weird places where it can be windy at night. Good way to distance yourself from your core group of fans, chose a style of boat which it seriously impractical and out of reach for 99.9% of the fan base. I've supported LE and RC right through this last cycle, but they are dead to me now, and so is the Americas Cup.



What an ACC boat has to do with Beer Can racing is less than zero. AC should be about something the average sailor will never be on.


HA ha! Damn you mean that first boat America built to challenge and prove their ability against the British maritime masters was something any old American could have built? NOT!!!

Where do these crack pots get the idea that the America's Cup is about every day easily affordable boats?

#124 Indio

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Posted 14 September 2010 - 11:17 PM

Seems to me the real issue isn't which type of boat, but whether the choice of multis makes it inevitable that SF will NOT be chosen as venue. That would be the real shame - especially for an American team..


For some of us non-USAers, it is about the type of boat and respect for the oldest active sporting trophy on the planet. For most of the BMWO sycophants, not unsurprisingly mostly USAers, their support of BMWO's AC34 is gratitude for bringing the AC back to the USA after 20+ years in foreign hands, even if they may not totally agree with multihulls. Now watch them all turn on BMWO when RC announces the venue is Valencia...Posted Image

#125 Bulbhunter

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Posted 14 September 2010 - 11:24 PM


Seems to me the real issue isn't which type of boat, but whether the choice of multis makes it inevitable that SF will NOT be chosen as venue. That would be the real shame - especially for an American team..


For some of us non-USAers, it is about the type of boat and respect for the oldest active sporting trophy on the planet. For most of the BMWO sycophants, not unsurprisingly mostly USAers, their support of BMWO's AC34 is gratitude for bringing the AC back to the USA after 20+ years in foreign hands, even if they may not totally agree with multihulls. Now watch them all turn on BMWO when RC announces the venue is Valencia...Posted Image


Given the last details I read about what uncle Larry has been up to I'd say the chances of the cup going anywhere other than SF is pretty damn low. Seems Larry has rallied the SV's richest sailors and most influential dudes with major connections to make this happen. Folks we are not just talking about Larry backing this thing. We are talking Tom Perkins and many other super rich and very dedicated sailors who love SF Bay. Think Larry multiplied by say 7 or 8 times thats what Larry has been working on when it comes to local backing of this project. And these MEN love PROJECTS often more so than the actual end result.

If you think this next AC is going to be a fizzle your betting against some of the richest and most motivated people in SV when they see a project thats "challenging" given thats what drives these guys. This next AC is going to be anything but a fizzle with these dudes all working together to make this thing happen.

#126 PIL007

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Posted 14 September 2010 - 11:29 PM

It is the technical aspect of F1 that sees the geeks etc interested in F1
It is the fashion aspect of F1 that brings the socialites to F1
The racing [read entertainment] that brings the majority to F1. F1 is the 4th largest economy in the world, and the AC could certainly topple that.

Comparing an F1 car with anything other than an indy car is apples /oranges. they could drive on an inverted surface at 100 klm/hr with the downforce developed by an F1 car.

Seeing a boat do over 20 knots of speed in 10 knots of wind will bring the geeks.
Seeing expensive boats will bring expensive people in expensive clothes, wanting to be associated with"money"
the racing will happen, and we will have to wait and see what happens before we can speculate.

Comparing a Mono to a Multi is like comparing a Mono to a Multi, both factions hate each other, and will never agree, like political parties.








This is spot on chocko, both sides just don't agree so on that note.......Suck shit to the slug lovers (although i do sail on one at the moment)

#127 I'moutahere

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Posted 15 September 2010 - 12:26 AM

In my view the Americas Cup DIED the day Michael Fay lodged his DoG challenge. It's been fucked since.

#128 Peelman

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Posted 15 September 2010 - 01:17 AM

It is the technical aspect of F1 that sees the geeks etc interested in F1
It is the fashion aspect of F1 that brings the socialites to F1
The racing [read entertainment] that brings the majority to F1. F1 is the 4th largest economy in the world, and the AC could certainly topple that.

Comparing an F1 car with anything other than an indy car is apples /oranges. they could drive on an inverted surface at 100 klm/hr with the downforce developed by an F1 car.

Seeing a boat do over 20 knots of speed in 10 knots of wind will bring the geeks.
Seeing expensive boats will bring expensive people in expensive clothes, wanting to be associated with"money"
the racing will happen, and we will have to wait and see what happens before we can speculate.

Comparing a Mono to a Multi is like comparing a Mono to a Multi, both factions hate each other, and will never agree, like political parties.



F1 is about money and being seen. As a geek there is nothing there that interests me especially when it's follow the leader around a static course.

The AC has very little in common with F1 as it's a circuit and not a single event. The AC will always be a final showdown event between a Defender and a Challenger as that's what the Deed says.

The AC #'s being thrown around since EB days are just that, numbers. According to SMS the AC ranks 71st in Sports Properties "America's Cup is valued at US$500 million in 71st place (just US$4 million behind the Winter Olympic Games in 70th)" - http://www.yachtspon...ailing-make-it/

Forbes in 2007 had an interesting way of looking at the world's most valuable sporting events brands - http://sports.espn.g...tory?id=2749584

1. Super Bowl

2. Summer Olympics

3. FIFA World Cup

4. Daytona 500

5. Rose Bowl

6. NCAA Men's Final Four

7. Winter Olympics Games

8. Kentucky Derby

9. World Series

10. NBA Finals


This is an interesting table to review when it comes to sports. It shows the team value of a NFL team to be $1B according to Fobres - http://www.plunkettr...73/Default.aspx

Btw I've sailed both multi and mono and they both are sailboats last time I looked.

#129 Indio

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Posted 15 September 2010 - 01:21 AM

In my view the Americas Cup DIED the day Michael Fay lodged his DoG challenge. It's been fucked since.


In my view, it changed forever when Conner defended with a cat - both on the water and in the courts.

#130 ro!

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Posted 15 September 2010 - 01:54 AM


It is the technical aspect of F1 that sees the geeks etc interested in F1
It is the fashion aspect of F1 that brings the socialites to F1
The racing [read entertainment] that brings the majority to F1. F1 is the 4th largest economy in the world, and the AC could certainly topple that.

Comparing an F1 car with anything other than an indy car is apples /oranges. they could drive on an inverted surface at 100 klm/hr with the downforce developed by an F1 car.

Seeing a boat do over 20 knots of speed in 10 knots of wind will bring the geeks.
Seeing expensive boats will bring expensive people in expensive clothes, wanting to be associated with"money"
the racing will happen, and we will have to wait and see what happens before we can speculate.

Comparing a Mono to a Multi is like comparing a Mono to a Multi, both factions hate each other, and will never agree, like political parties.



F1 is about money and being seen. As a geek there is nothing there that interests me especially when it's follow the leader around a static course.

The AC has very little in common with F1 as it's a circuit and not a single event. The AC will always be a final showdown event between a Defender and a Challenger as that's what the Deed says.

The AC #'s being thrown around since EB days are just that, numbers. According to SMS the AC ranks 71st in Sports Properties "America's Cup is valued at US$500 million in 71st place (just US$4 million behind the Winter Olympic Games in 70th)" - http://www.yachtspon...ailing-make-it/

Forbes in 2007 had an interesting way of looking at the world's most valuable sporting events brands - http://sports.espn.g...tory?id=2749584

1. Super Bowl

2. Summer Olympics

3. FIFA World Cup

4. Daytona 500

5. Rose Bowl

6. NCAA Men's Final Four

7. Winter Olympics Games

8. Kentucky Derby

9. World Series

10. NBA Finals


This is an interesting table to review when it comes to sports. It shows the team value of a NFL team to be $1B according to Fobres - http://www.plunkettr...73/Default.aspx

Btw I've sailed both multi and mono and they both are sailboats last time I looked.


Maybe as a geek you should check in on this years F1 because it's the most exciting season in years..after 13 races 5 drivers in 3 teams are within one race win of leading the championship and most of the races have been great to watch..unless you have to watch it on US Speed tv where the coverage is dreadfull...
of course you being a geek will be able to get the bbc feed over the internet which is brilliant..and if the AC is ever going to be a tv / internet success they had better take a look at the BBC's coverage of F1..in fact if you want to find out why F1 is really as big as it is, go check out the video race edits at F1.com and get back to us..

as for your statistics, which we all know can be made to prove anything..what a load of bollocks..of course it's no surprise that someone in the US would use US stats to prove how the superbowl as a brand is bigger than F1 as a brand...

oh ..what the fuck is a static course?

#131 Indio

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Posted 15 September 2010 - 02:03 AM



It is the technical aspect of F1 that sees the geeks etc interested in F1
It is the fashion aspect of F1 that brings the socialites to F1
The racing [read entertainment] that brings the majority to F1. F1 is the 4th largest economy in the world, and the AC could certainly topple that.

Comparing an F1 car with anything other than an indy car is apples /oranges. they could drive on an inverted surface at 100 klm/hr with the downforce developed by an F1 car.

Seeing a boat do over 20 knots of speed in 10 knots of wind will bring the geeks.
Seeing expensive boats will bring expensive people in expensive clothes, wanting to be associated with"money"
the racing will happen, and we will have to wait and see what happens before we can speculate.

Comparing a Mono to a Multi is like comparing a Mono to a Multi, both factions hate each other, and will never agree, like political parties.



F1 is about money and being seen. As a geek there is nothing there that interests me especially when it's follow the leader around a static course.

The AC has very little in common with F1 as it's a circuit and not a single event. The AC will always be a final showdown event between a Defender and a Challenger as that's what the Deed says.

The AC #'s being thrown around since EB days are just that, numbers. According to SMS the AC ranks 71st in Sports Properties "America's Cup is valued at US$500 million in 71st place (just US$4 million behind the Winter Olympic Games in 70th)" - http://www.yachtspon...ailing-make-it/

Forbes in 2007 had an interesting way of looking at the world's most valuable sporting events brands - http://sports.espn.g...tory?id=2749584

1. Super Bowl

2. Summer Olympics

3. FIFA World Cup

4. Daytona 500

5. Rose Bowl

6. NCAA Men's Final Four

7. Winter Olympics Games

8. Kentucky Derby

9. World Series

10. NBA Finals


This is an interesting table to review when it comes to sports. It shows the team value of a NFL team to be $1B according to Fobres - http://www.plunkettr...73/Default.aspx

Btw I've sailed both multi and mono and they both are sailboats last time I looked.


Maybe as a geek you should check in on this years F1 because it's the most exciting season in years..after 13 races 5 drivers in 3 teams are within one race win of leading the championship and most of the races have been great to watch..unless you have to watch it on US Speed tv where the coverage is dreadfull...
of course you being a geek will be able to get the bbc feed over the internet which is brilliant..and if the AC is ever going to be a tv / internet success they had better take a look at the BBC's coverage of F1..in fact if you want to find out why F1 is really as big as it is, go check out the video race edits at F1.com and get back to us..

as for your statistics, which we all know can be made to prove anything..what a load of bollocks..of course it's no surprise that someone in the US would use US stats to prove how the superbowl as a brand is bigger than F1 as a brand...

oh ..what the fuck is a static course?

I did laugh when I saw 7 of the 10 were all exclusively North American "sports" events...or sports events in-between commercials.

#132 CrushDigital

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Posted 15 September 2010 - 02:05 AM

Apologies that we aren't all praying at the alter of the All Blacks.

#133 Wandering Geo

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Posted 15 September 2010 - 02:14 AM

Forbes in 2007 had an interesting way of looking at the world's most valuable sporting events brands - http://sports.espn.g...tory?id=2749584

1. Super Bowl

2. Summer Olympics

3. FIFA World Cup

4. Daytona 500

5. Rose Bowl

6. NCAA Men's Final Four

7. Winter Olympics Games

8. Kentucky Derby

9. World Series

10. NBA Finals


This is an interesting table to review when it comes to sports. It shows the team value of a NFL team to be $1B according to Fobres - http://www.plunkettr...73/Default.aspx

Btw I've sailed both multi and mono and they both are sailboats last time I looked.


Peelers,
Forbes certainly do have an interesting way to value the events listed which, if I have read the article correctly includes dividing the gross revenue by the number of days of the event.
Obvioulsy biased towards short events.
Be interesting to see the list rejigged just on gross revenue.
Doubt as many of the US events would make the top ten then.

#134 Peelman

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Posted 15 September 2010 - 02:51 AM


Forbes in 2007 had an interesting way of looking at the world's most valuable sporting events brands - http://sports.espn.g...tory?id=2749584

1. Super Bowl

2. Summer Olympics

3. FIFA World Cup

4. Daytona 500

5. Rose Bowl

6. NCAA Men's Final Four

7. Winter Olympics Games

8. Kentucky Derby

9. World Series

10. NBA Finals


This is an interesting table to review when it comes to sports. It shows the team value of a NFL team to be $1B according to Fobres - http://www.plunkettr...73/Default.aspx

Btw I've sailed both multi and mono and they both are sailboats last time I looked.


Peelers,
Forbes certainly do have an interesting way to value the events listed which, if I have read the article correctly includes dividing the gross revenue by the number of days of the event.
Obvioulsy biased towards short events.
Be interesting to see the list rejigged just on gross revenue.
Doubt as many of the US events would make the top ten then.



If you compare the multiple events of the F1 circuit to the the NFL and MLB the F1 will be behind them and a bit in front of the NBA, IPL and maybe the NHL.

Deloitte in 2009 has a per event look at F1 which will make the F1 crowd happy as it's based on events. As a ex Motorola sales guy I can relate to this method. Further Deloitte says F1’s global revenues are $3.9 billion. And yes on absolute revenue F1 is sitting at #3 behind the NFL and MLB. Deloitte says NFL ($6.5 billion in 2006) and MLB ($5.1 billion in 2006) NFL for 2010 is around $7.8B

http://www.deloitte....a42f00aRCRD.htm

It's pretty hard to compare circuit vs leagues or circuits vs one event but back to the AC. The new interim AC management has a huge challenge to get the numbers they talk about. Regardless they have the potential to do better than the 32nd. Personaly like football/soccer, Europe is a huge and better market for sailing for numerous reasons but it's the AC and should be sailed in the Defenders home waters/home country IMO

#135 Peelman

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Posted 15 September 2010 - 03:04 AM



It is the technical aspect of F1 that sees the geeks etc interested in F1
It is the fashion aspect of F1 that brings the socialites to F1
The racing [read entertainment] that brings the majority to F1. F1 is the 4th largest economy in the world, and the AC could certainly topple that.

Comparing an F1 car with anything other than an indy car is apples /oranges. they could drive on an inverted surface at 100 klm/hr with the downforce developed by an F1 car.

Seeing a boat do over 20 knots of speed in 10 knots of wind will bring the geeks.
Seeing expensive boats will bring expensive people in expensive clothes, wanting to be associated with"money"
the racing will happen, and we will have to wait and see what happens before we can speculate.

Comparing a Mono to a Multi is like comparing a Mono to a Multi, both factions hate each other, and will never agree, like political parties.



F1 is about money and being seen. As a geek there is nothing there that interests me especially when it's follow the leader around a static course.

The AC has very little in common with F1 as it's a circuit and not a single event. The AC will always be a final showdown event between a Defender and a Challenger as that's what the Deed says.

The AC #'s being thrown around since EB days are just that, numbers. According to SMS the AC ranks 71st in Sports Properties "America's Cup is valued at US$500 million in 71st place (just US$4 million behind the Winter Olympic Games in 70th)" - http://www.yachtspon...ailing-make-it/

Forbes in 2007 had an interesting way of looking at the world's most valuable sporting events brands - http://sports.espn.g...tory?id=2749584

1. Super Bowl

2. Summer Olympics

3. FIFA World Cup

4. Daytona 500

5. Rose Bowl

6. NCAA Men's Final Four

7. Winter Olympics Games

8. Kentucky Derby

9. World Series

10. NBA Finals


This is an interesting table to review when it comes to sports. It shows the team value of a NFL team to be $1B according to Fobres - http://www.plunkettr...73/Default.aspx

Btw I've sailed both multi and mono and they both are sailboats last time I looked.


Maybe as a geek you should check in on this years F1 because it's the most exciting season in years..after 13 races 5 drivers in 3 teams are within one race win of leading the championship and most of the races have been great to watch..unless you have to watch it on US Speed tv where the coverage is dreadfull...
of course you being a geek will be able to get the bbc feed over the internet which is brilliant..and if the AC is ever going to be a tv / internet success they had better take a look at the BBC's coverage of F1..in fact if you want to find out why F1 is really as big as it is, go check out the video race edits at F1.com and get back to us..

as for your statistics, which we all know can be made to prove anything..what a load of bollocks..of course it's no surprise that someone in the US would use US stats to prove how the superbowl as a brand is bigger than F1 as a brand...

oh ..what the fuck is a static course?


Yes, I watch everything on my monitors in TGWN as there is way more to choose from and the releases are earlier.

Great for you that you are into it. I've never been into the round and round stuff on asphalt tracks. Been VIP'ed and brought tickets for the non-existant race circuit that use to show up in YVR in the 80's and 90's. The pits were cool but other than that is was a social event as the cars only came around once is awhile. Partied in a tower that overlooked the same event 1 year. Was a better view from the balcony and windows than the ground.....still noisy. The tv's made for good replays but again the social side was more interesting. Oh, the F1, I know but thats because I know one of the coders that worked on the site. It's a great sports site.

Static course is where you go round and round in the same tracks and it doesn't change much with the external conditions ie:weather. Sailing is quite different IMO.

#136 I'moutahere

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Posted 15 September 2010 - 03:35 AM


In my view the Americas Cup DIED the day Michael Fay lodged his DoG challenge. It's been fucked since.


In my view, it changed forever when Conner defended with a cat - both on the water and in the courts.


Note who "defended in the courts"

#137 CrushDigital

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Posted 15 September 2010 - 04:09 AM



In my view the Americas Cup DIED the day Michael Fay lodged his DoG challenge. It's been fucked since.


In my view, it changed forever when Conner defended with a cat - both on the water and in the courts.


Note who "defended in the courts"


What would you have preferred, for DC, "Oh you're suing me, in that case the Cup is yours."

They only had to go to Court because Fay was never interested in a fair race and once he saw he was getting beat at his own game he tried to get the courts to deliver the Cup to him since he knew KZ-1 didn't stand a chance. At least EB had the good grace to let the race be decided on the water.

#138 I'moutahere

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Posted 15 September 2010 - 04:13 AM




In my view the Americas Cup DIED the day Michael Fay lodged his DoG challenge. It's been fucked since.


In my view, it changed forever when Conner defended with a cat - both on the water and in the courts.


Note who "defended in the courts"


What would you have preferred, for DC, "Oh you're suing me, in that case the Cup is yours."

They only had to go to Court because Fay was never interested in a fair race and once he saw he was getting beat at his own game he tried to get the courts to deliver the Cup to him since he knew KZ-1 didn't stand a chance. At least EB had the good grace to let the race be decided on the water.


Wha??? Read again. To put my post another way ... Fay (or whoever put him up to it) fucked the AC!

#139 Danno

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Posted 15 September 2010 - 04:18 AM


Well done LE and EB, you just made Ernie look like a good guy! What a fucking circus. What are we all supposed to go out and buy wing sailed cats now? Don't think that will work in my local marina. I live in one if those weird places where it can be windy at night. Good way to distance yourself from your core group of fans, chose a style of boat which it seriously impractical and out of reach for 99.9% of the fan base. I've supported LE and RC right through this last cycle, but they are dead to me now, and so is the Americas Cup.



What an ACC boat has to do with Beer Can racing is less than zero. AC should be about something the average sailor will never be on.


Depends...have great memories of racing against BMWO and ETNZ in their IACC in a Friday night rum race last year before the LVPS......can't see that happening with the new 72 foot cats....

#140 CrushDigital

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Posted 15 September 2010 - 04:20 AM





In my view the Americas Cup DIED the day Michael Fay lodged his DoG challenge. It's been fucked since.


In my view, it changed forever when Conner defended with a cat - both on the water and in the courts.


Note who "defended in the courts"


What would you have preferred, for DC, "Oh you're suing me, in that case the Cup is yours."

They only had to go to Court because Fay was never interested in a fair race and once he saw he was getting beat at his own game he tried to get the courts to deliver the Cup to him since he knew KZ-1 didn't stand a chance. At least EB had the good grace to let the race be decided on the water.


Wha??? Read again. To put my post another way ... Fay (or whoever put him up to it) fucked the AC!


I somehow missed your first post, sorry. Perhaps mine can serve as a quick history lesson for those who don't know about '88.

#141 halfcolours

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Posted 15 September 2010 - 04:45 AM

I'm keeping a nice open mind to this prospect in the hope that this format of the AC will take off. As one totally non-sailing friend said to me this morning "I will watch 70+ foot wing sailed cats, I will not watch boring slow boats."
The last AC has brough the notion of the wing to the mainstream (even though C cats have had them for decades) and centreboard design has made progress; this is just from ONE AC. Will 3 or 4 of these contests produce allot of development?

And perhaps the best part of the way the AC works, if this doesn't work after 2 or 3 goes CHANGE IT!!! maybe in more stable economic times a fleet of 100ft canting keel mono's will work or some other formula, but for right now, this has as good a chance as any of sparking interesting in the Cup.

#142 Chocko

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Posted 15 September 2010 - 06:48 AM



Forbes in 2007 had an interesting way of looking at the world's most valuable sporting events brands - http://sports.espn.g...tory?id=2749584

1. Super Bowl

2. Summer Olympics

3. FIFA World Cup

4. Daytona 500

5. Rose Bowl

6. NCAA Men's Final Four

7. Winter Olympics Games

8. Kentucky Derby

9. World Series

10. NBA Finals


This is an interesting table to review when it comes to sports. It shows the team value of a NFL team to be $1B according to Fobres - http://www.plunkettr...73/Default.aspx

Btw I've sailed both multi and mono and they both are sailboats last time I looked.


Peelers,
Forbes certainly do have an interesting way to value the events listed which, if I have read the article correctly includes dividing the gross revenue by the number of days of the event.
Obvioulsy biased towards short events.
Be interesting to see the list rejigged just on gross revenue.
Doubt as many of the US events would make the top ten then.



If you compare the multiple events of the F1 circuit to the the NFL and MLB the F1 will be behind them and a bit in front of the NBA, IPL and maybe the NHL.

Deloitte in 2009 has a per event look at F1 which will make the F1 crowd happy as it's based on events. As a ex Motorola sales guy I can relate to this method. Further Deloitte says F1's global revenues are $3.9 billion. And yes on absolute revenue F1 is sitting at #3 behind the NFL and MLB. Deloitte says NFL ($6.5 billion in 2006) and MLB ($5.1 billion in 2006) NFL for 2010 is around $7.8B

http://www.deloitte....a42f00aRCRD.htm

It's pretty hard to compare circuit vs leagues or circuits vs one event but back to the AC. The new interim AC management has a huge challenge to get the numbers they talk about. Regardless they have the potential to do better than the 32nd. Personaly like football/soccer, Europe is a huge and better market for sailing for numerous reasons but it's the AC and should be sailed in the Defenders home waters/home country IMO


Sorry to burst your bubble, but F1and the turnovers of the 200 odd companies involved is worth $3.787tn [that's trillion], if F1 were a country, it would have the 4th largest GDP in the world.




#143 Oneyoti

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Posted 15 September 2010 - 07:03 AM

I think this about sums it up!!!

Oh and as for calling the 'World Series' that very name, well that's laughable to be honest.

#144 Alpha FB

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Posted 15 September 2010 - 07:04 AM

For some of us non-USAers, it is about the type of boat and respect for the oldest active sporting trophy on the planet. For most of the BMWO sycophants, not unsurprisingly mostly USAers, their support of BMWO's AC34 is gratitude for bringing the AC back to the USA after 20+ years in foreign hands, even if they may not totally agree with multihulls. Now watch them all turn on BMWO when RC announces the venue is Valencia...Posted Image


What a load of rubbish - this has nothing to do with being a BOR supporter - which I'm not particularily.

I think the choice for the cats is a great one for the America's Cup specifically and sailing in general. Talking about respect, sure I'd like to see each boat perform an ocean crossing before being eligable to participate, but the world has moved on since then.

So kudos to GGYC/BOR for the decisions to date.

However, yes, I will be terribly dissapointed if they go for Valencia. For me the fact that the winner gets to organise the next race in his home waters is the single most interesting Unique Selling Proposition of the America's Cup - this USP has already taken a serious knock since SNG won it way back when, but it needs to be restored ASAP...

#145 EaglesPDX

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Posted 15 September 2010 - 07:29 AM

The cup is dead


Long live the Cup!

#146 JimC

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Posted 15 September 2010 - 08:10 AM

Sorry to burst your bubble, but F1and the turnovers of the 200 odd companies involved is worth $3.787tn [that's trillion], if F1 were a country, it would have the 4th largest GDP in the world.

preeecisely...

Here in pomland I don't even know what some of those seppo events he listed are...

#147 Chocko

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Posted 15 September 2010 - 09:50 AM

My point is, That AC has the opportunity to be as big, if not bigger than F1.

I tried to get people interested in watching match racing by Mirsky, Minoprio etc etc and the nonsailing, ignorant public that I was showcasing matches to, ended up more interested in watching O'pen bics stack in 20-25knot winds on home videos. As young sailors, the little O'pen Bic sailors at our club dream of being AC sailors, hell, even some of the teen Laser guys tough talk on shore about how they'd get BMWO flying 2 hulls.

People want to be entertained, do that and the money comes,
F1 suffers critisism from those who want "more overtaking", purist answer is "go and watch NASCAR".
The purist will always want the Mono with lead keel. the progressive will want faster, lighter.
I think the demographic will be a younger audience for AC34, which will prove to be more progressive, and as such will want entertainment.

Entertainment isn't watching 2 snails chase each other round a triangle, it is high speed racing with a high chance of massive carnage.

For that, you need an adaptable boat that WILL perform in a multitude of conditions [light or strong breezes] with reliable speed.
I hope they have it right, but unlike most, I will reserve saying "they got it right/wrong" until the Fat Lady sings.

#148 Presuming Ed

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Posted 15 September 2010 - 09:59 AM

In my view the Americas Cup DIED the day Michael Fay lodged his DoG challenge. It's been fucked since.


Or, it's been fucked ever since the SDYC viewed defending the cup as a money making opportunity, and spent far too long trying to tie up media rights before accepting any challenge, thus triggering the righteous, legitimate ire of challengers and finally, the big boat.

#149 josselin

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Posted 15 September 2010 - 10:48 AM



So their 'big boat' sailing is led by multihulls...


But it isn't. I've reeled off a list of high media profile monohull events, notably the Vendee Globe which is now arguably the most followed ocean race in the world.


Your numbers are off. Biggest spectator sailing event in France - BY FAR - is the start of the Route Du Rhum, which includes monos and multis, and this year the G-Class multis for the first time. Just under a million spectators at the start in '09, live television coverage throughout the country, and so on.


the Route du Rhum is every 4 years! last one was in 2006!! It was the first great french offshore race created in 1978 that bring the multihulls under the spotlights but always very open to any amateur. The Vendee Globe is the only race that challenge the Route du rhum now in the public heart.

Thank you for the Forbes range of events but it is in the US, there are event in the list taht I have just discovered today. If LE wants a worldwide spread it is a bit different.

#150 Indio

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Posted 15 September 2010 - 10:52 AM

Apologies that we aren't all praying at the alter of the All Blacks.


No need to apologise for praying at the altar of your All Black President Posted Image

#151 MauganNacra20

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Posted 15 September 2010 - 11:55 AM


Apologies that we aren't all praying at the alter of the All Blacks.


No need to apologise for praying at the altar of your All Black President Posted Image


Technically, he's 50% black.

#152 LoopyGirdleSniffer

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Posted 15 September 2010 - 12:02 PM



Apologies that we aren't all praying at the alter of the All Blacks.


No need to apologise for praying at the altar of your All Black President Posted Image


Technically, he's 50% black.


Is there some problem with that?

#153 MauganNacra20

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Posted 15 September 2010 - 12:21 PM




Apologies that we aren't all praying at the alter of the All Blacks.


No need to apologise for praying at the altar of your All Black President Posted Image


Technically, he's 50% black.


Is there some problem with that?


What is wrong with a simple statement of fact? I'm 25% Polish. Is there something wrong with that?

What does this have to do with the so called dead cup now?

#154 Indio

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Posted 15 September 2010 - 12:26 PM




Apologies that we aren't all praying at the alter of the All Blacks.


No need to apologise for praying at the altar of your All Black President Posted Image


Technically, he's 50% black.


Is there some problem with that?

Only if you want to make it. It was a fun wordplay on the All Blacks rugby team and El Presidende...lighten the fuck up!!




#155 LoopyGirdleSniffer

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Posted 15 September 2010 - 12:56 PM





Apologies that we aren't all praying at the alter of the All Blacks.


No need to apologise for praying at the altar of your All Black President Posted Image


Technically, he's 50% black.


Is there some problem with that?

Only if you want to make it. It was a fun wordplay on the All Blacks rugby team and El Presidende...lighten the fuck up!!


I didn't find it remotely funny. And before anyone starts in on take it to PA it's got nothing to do with politics.

#156 pjh

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Posted 15 September 2010 - 01:24 PM

In my view the Americas Cup DIED the day Michael Fay lodged his DoG challenge. It's been fucked since.


Or, it's been fucked ever since the SDYC viewed defending the cup as a money making opportunity, and spent far too long trying to tie up media rights before accepting any challenge, thus triggering the righteous, legitimate ire of challengers and finally, the big boat.

This is the biggest load of steaming revisionist poo that I have ever seen on this board, and that takes some doing! Michael Fay: Avenging Gabriel of the 12 meter AC community!

#157 JimC

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Posted 15 September 2010 - 02:01 PM


Or, it's been fucked ever since the SDYC viewed defending the cup as a money making opportunity, and spent far too long trying to tie up media rights before accepting any challenge, thus triggering the righteous, legitimate ire of challengers and finally, the big boat.

This is the biggest load of steaming revisionist poo that I have ever seen on this board, and that takes some doing!

Nope, ed's dead on the money. San Diego were the ones who stuffed up. If they hadn't been playing stupid games the big boat thing would never have happened.

#158 mr_fabulous

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Posted 15 September 2010 - 03:14 PM


I don't think that's the point. For a match Race, the multis are a terrible choice. Multi and wings are neat but the racing will be dull to watch. Tactics will be elementary and the competition will be minimal once one boat is found to be faster. Very bad choice of boats for a match race.


+1

This isn't about prejudice against multihulls. It's about match racing. These boats will be terrible for match racing. No tacking or gybing duels, no dialups--nothing but drag racing.

Any odds on who will be the first sailor to die when one of these ridiculous rigs comes down?

Dave E


With up to 4 lead changes in some races, pre-start duals, etc., the little AC was some of the best match racing I have seen on boats in a long time.

As for risks, Australia broke in 2 pieces, went down like a stone in one famous AC event.

As for one boat being faster, and your idea of perceived that monos have some hedge on speed parity, the losing AC team has won only 13 of 126 races in previous AC's. (I suggest that you think 1 boat length in a lead mine is somehow different than 5 lengths in a multi.)

As for the type of boat, don't be so disingenuous with your sour grapes. There have been boat innovations that have skewed the outcomes since the beginning of the AC.

Arguments like this belong in museums.

#159 pjh

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Posted 15 September 2010 - 03:20 PM



Or, it's been fucked ever since the SDYC viewed defending the cup as a money making opportunity, and spent far too long trying to tie up media rights before accepting any challenge, thus triggering the righteous, legitimate ire of challengers and finally, the big boat.

This is the biggest load of steaming revisionist poo that I have ever seen on this board, and that takes some doing!

Nope, ed's dead on the money. San Diego were the ones who stuffed up. If they hadn't been playing stupid games the big boat thing would never have happened.

^ Another great entry in the blame the victim sweepstakes. "If you hadn't built the Maginot Line, we wouldn't have had to attack you through the Ardennes.

#160 Sailabout

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Posted 15 September 2010 - 03:52 PM

Hasn't all the 'large cat' racing in France died?

#161 Sailabout

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Posted 15 September 2010 - 03:59 PM

it's comical how mono sailors ignore the fact that there are hundreds of thousands of beach cats, racing cats, and cruising cats out there when they go down this line of reasoning.

Accordign to ISAF there isnt hence the Olympics decision

#162 drew1787

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Posted 15 September 2010 - 04:13 PM

I think the biggest question of all is what type of boat would they have used for another Monohull AC? TP52s - NO, lets go bigger and still plan downwind? Maybe have a canting keel? NO, that would the area of the Volvo Boats. OK, lets go BIGGER? NO, then you get in to the area of Maxi Boats that everyone has seen for years. How many people have seen 72 foot cats racing around? No one, sure over in Europe they have Trimarans racing but those are more of offshore boats. I think that BMWO and ML went in the only direction in which the sport has never been. Great Job and you will see all types of technology trickle down to rest of the sailing world.

#163 wikedgenius

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Posted 15 September 2010 - 04:16 PM

Wow, cool, I hope that this is the level of passion that most sailors are feeling towards the change. Both the staunch mono defenders will tune in just to make sure it is as poor of a performance as they expected as well as the pro-multis will have a new altar to worship at, not to mention that it will move the technology of moving people/mass by the power of wind further than it has in some time. It will change the nature of the cup, but it will be interesting to see how the change will be evidenced. I haven't seen any discussion of the type of course -vs- the type of boat, naturally a shorter course would encourage more match racing interaction (less time to make up poor starts with speed) and a longer one more sheer speed, finding a balance for that may be interesting. Plus these are huge boats. A 72 ft boat is impressive, not the 90s but still huge. People are incredibly inventive and it will be interesting to see some new Ideas on how to make multi's tack and manuever faster, I am sure we will see some innovation there. It's good to see that at least a handful of people are argueing about it. Maybe the NA public will start to care?

#164 catsailordude

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Posted 15 September 2010 - 04:39 PM

I race both monohull dinghies and a Formula 18 catamaran. Both are fun and have more similarities than differences, but the F18 sailing is more exciting and involves a wider skill set than the monohull dinghy sailing. Decisions have to be made faster and further in advance, but the principles of playing shifts and covering are the same (and even more important). In the end, it's all sailing. Don't fear the dark side. This will be an spectacular.

Most of the sailing in AC34 is going to be on one hull anyway. So what's the big issue?

#165 Xlot

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Posted 15 September 2010 - 04:53 PM

^ Another great entry in the blame the victim sweepstakes. "If you hadn't built the Maginot Line, we wouldn't have had to attack you through the Ardennes.


Most of the sailing in AC34 is going to be on one hull anyway. So what's the big issue?


Slogging through SAAC can be a hassle, but occasionally you are rewarded by really good one-liners .. :)

#166 Living_in_a_box

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Posted 15 September 2010 - 05:00 PM


Most of the sailing in AC34 is going to be on one hull anyway. So what's the big issue?


Slogging through SAAC can be a hassle, but occasionally you are rewarded by really good one-liners .. :)


+1

#167 sail7seas

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Posted 15 September 2010 - 05:08 PM

I would like to see some fleet racing too, perhaps in AC45, checkout
http://www.extremesa.../video/trapani/
I wonder if Extreme 40 and AC45 will consolidate?

#168 AdventureTri

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Posted 15 September 2010 - 05:11 PM



The AC is supposed to be at the pinnacle of the sport. As a mono sailor, I'm not sure "we" can make that claim anymore. Both cats and wings are more efficient at playing the game, and it IS the same game.



Who actually decided that? When, and how?

Shouldn't the Pinnacle be that peak which we all aspire to?
If that's the case I'd guess that there is really only a small
percentage of sailors that desire to be match racers.

So WHO really decided this was the pinnacle?


Within the sailing community it's not but to the man on the street, the AC is about the only news they hear of. Hence that's why it's refered to as the pinnacle in the global press and with the non-sailors. to


Perhaps we all need to step back and look at the bigger picture.... The man on the street needs to be the focus if the sport of sailing is going to survive or even grow, heaven forbid.
I have heard that most yacht clubs (at least in the US) are losing members, and the sport is shrinking. In a world of adrenaline junkies, immediate gratification, iPhones, constantly evolving technology, and information overload, the average person (and remember now, there are many people out there younger than us) only pays attention to something exciting, extraordinary, highly visible, or sensational. The last few mono- AC's had non of that. Inherantly slow designs using the latest technology and $$$ to gain 1/10th of 1% speed is not nearly as exciting as gaining 8% speed with 50 knot closing speeds, and potential wipe-outs. The Extreme 40 circuit has lots of that! We need to catch the eyes, attention, and imagination of younger generations, and the new format has that. Does it have to be multi's? No, it could be 4 person 40' winged moths, or maxi-dinghys, but it does have to be exciting.

The pinnacle of an old and dying sport is not nearly as enthralling to the average man on the street as something new and sensational. We need to stop focusing on what we(current sailboat racers) want, and start focusing on what "they"(next gen potential sailors) want. Having very similar cats will indeed make it even more exciting than the last AC. And, as someone else said, it is afterall, a challenge race - bring the best you have got, here's the format, let's go at it. Maybe next time will be something else, but for now we're in 70' cats, and I for one think that's as good as anything, and better than most.

Attached are my kids playing in BMO' 1st set of amas and ama molds. (Both are for sale in Anacortes, WA)
Attached File  Staycation 2010 049.JPG   167.71K   18 downloads
Attached File  Staycation 2010 064.JPG   130.37K   21 downloads
Attached File  Staycation 2010 044.JPG   83.56K   18 downloads
Attached File  Staycation 2010 050.JPG   69.54K   13 downloads

#169 MR.CLEAN

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Posted 15 September 2010 - 05:12 PM

I would like to see some fleet racing too, perhaps in AC45, checkout
http://www.extremesa.../video/trapani/
I wonder if Extreme 40 and AC45 will consolidate?


Unlikely, especially as OC Events has just announced its purchase of the Extreme 40 Class from TornadoSports.

http://www.extremesailingseries.com/news/view/extreme-sailing-series-2011-confirmed-even-bigger-better-and-now-global/

#170 Remodel

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Posted 15 September 2010 - 05:30 PM

In the description of the AC72, it even said there will be provisions for masts and soft sails, I imagine to be used in seriously heavy conditions.


So much for keeping costs down!

:lol:

#171 CrushDigital

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Posted 15 September 2010 - 05:34 PM


In the description of the AC72, it even said there will be provisions for masts and soft sails, I imagine to be used in seriously heavy conditions.


So much for keeping costs down!

:lol:


If there is one thing that really bothers me about this defense, it is the constant talk about keeping costs down. It's an altogether ridiculous notion. The teams will spend exactly as much as they have available to them. If there are one design foils they will just spend more on other parts of the platform.

You see it all the time in F1. A rule is introduced such as the testing bans, so teams just come up with new ways to spend their budgets.

#172 Joan Pons Semelis

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Posted 15 September 2010 - 05:35 PM



Most of the sailing in AC34 is going to be on one hull anyway. So what's the big issue?


Slogging through SAAC can be a hassle, but occasionally you are rewarded by really good one-liners .. :)


+1


+1

#173 rexdenton

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Posted 15 September 2010 - 05:37 PM

Hasn't all the 'large cat' racing in France died?


The big cats sail almost like the little ones, the helm of BMWO was just on C-class (30 feet, then on F18 (18 sloop) class and A-class (18 uni)... As for general popularity of cat sailing in Europe a pic of 400 or so entrants in the 2010 round Texel says it all:

Posted Image

#174 Rennmaus

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Posted 15 September 2010 - 05:52 PM

(...)
Most of the sailing in AC34 is going to be on one hull anyway. So what's the big issue?

Excellent!

#175 Xlot

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Posted 15 September 2010 - 06:03 PM

Great looking kids, AdventureTri :)

Do you happen to know what's the asking price for the first molds (meaning how much they'll pay to somebody ridding them of the encumbrance)? B)

#176 Smallboatsailor001

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Posted 15 September 2010 - 06:15 PM

A sailboat is a sailboat, mono, cat, or tri. This isn't a different "vehicle" anymore than if they had gone from the IACC to a powered-up sled or a Melges 24. Some boats are better or worse for match racing in your opinion. I will be the first to say that I have sailed a decent number of different classes, but I haven't sailed a 72ft cat with a wing and I cannot comment on their match racing abilities. I have a feeling you'll see more dialups and tacking duels than you think though, just a guess.

Seems to me this is really about one thing: monohull sailors think multihulls are not "real" sailboats. I'm a monohull guy, but cats are boats too. Lets give them a shot and see what happens. Maybe it'll show all of us that it's not some "darkside," it's just another sailboat.

Whiners will always find something to whine about, winners always find a way to win. You spend your time whining, i'm going sailing on whatever type of sailboat I can find with as many hulls under it as it happens to have.

#177 davidprobable

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Posted 15 September 2010 - 06:23 PM

So the America's Cup is dead as far as history goes. It has been converted to " The Big Little AC " and all the SA's on Hobie Cats are thrilled as they now feel they are at the top of the heap. Well it is a heap alright. A heap of dung with no provenance whatsoever. Queen Victoria would say, not who is second, but rather, what kind of crap is that pretending to be an ocean racing boat? Where is the accommodation? Where are the big waves? Why can't multi hull guys just go get their own Cup ie create a new one, and leave history alone. The Cup died with the last multi series. It should have been banned from the get go, but the NYYC went limpus dickus and let it be taken away without a whimper. Enjoy drag racing you multi freaks. Enjoy interminable delays because there is wind and waves. Enjoy a joke which will not attract the public. At least in mono's the public could pretend race and enjoy a cottage life with their kids. Multis on the beach are for kids and fun but they are not multi use boats for families. At least in golf you can play the same courses as the pro's. No longer in sailing. Why can't these multitards not realize there is more to sailing than just flat out speed. After the next cup it will be in hydropters (sic?) and then Russian surface airplanes that glide 2 feet off the water. And then why not helicopters that can land on water? Where will it end? Hopefully NYYC will come out with a " continuation" cup for those with education and an historical memory.

#178 Peelman

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Posted 15 September 2010 - 06:25 PM

Folks need to relax on the choice of the boat as AC history and tradition shows there have been different boat design cycles through out the 160 years. Further remember this is the AC and the Deed makes it impossible for a Defender to be told what type of sailing vessel or sailboat to use. Hence the The Cup is not dead as it's going through one of it's cycle. Who knows how long it will last but revenues to the CSS group is a big carrot to fall in line but again the Deed rules when someone wants to apply it.

#179 rexdenton

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Posted 15 September 2010 - 06:31 PM

Queen Victoria would say, not who is second, but rather, what kind of crap is that pretending to be an ocean racing boat? Where is the accommodation? Where are the big waves?

Dunno. Maybe you should ask this bouy racer (Orange II):
Posted Image

Or maybe this one (Groupama III):

Posted Image

#180 rexdenton

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Posted 15 September 2010 - 06:39 PM

Multis on the beach are for kids and fun but they are not multi use boats for families.


That's right. A 12M AC yacht is a nice distance cruiser... :blink:

As for age and families, check out the old guy and the grin on the kid on this finish...Attached File  IMG_Rex_and_Richard_f18.jpg   212.87K   21 downloads

#181 rexdenton

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Posted 15 September 2010 - 06:50 PM

At least in golf you can play the same courses as the pro's.


My foursome is interested for this Sunday on Augusta National. I'll check EZ-tee, but if you have 'an in' there, please let us know.

#182 davidprobable

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Posted 15 September 2010 - 06:55 PM


Multis on the beach are for kids and fun but they are not multi use boats for families.


That's right. A 12M AC yacht is a nice distance cruiser... :blink:

As for age and families, check out the old guy and the grin on the kid on this finish...Attached File  IMG_Rex_and_Richard_f18.jpg   212.87K   21 downloads


i guess you never saw Ted Turner race War Baby on Lake Michigan and cruise it home thereafter. So many SA members with no knowledge of history.

#183 davidprobable

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Posted 15 September 2010 - 06:57 PM


At least in golf you can play the same courses as the pro's.


My foursome is interested for this Sunday on Augusta National. I'll check EZ-tee, but if you have 'an in' there, please let us know.


I do but you don't and never will.

#184 Trovão

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Posted 15 September 2010 - 06:58 PM

So the America's Cup is dead as far as history goes. It has been converted to " The Big Little AC " and all the SA's on Hobie Cats are thrilled as they now feel they are at the top of the heap. Well it is a heap alright. A heap of dung with no provenance whatsoever. Queen Victoria would say, not who is second, but rather, what kind of crap is that pretending to be an ocean racing boat? Where is the accommodation? Where are the big waves? Why can't multi hull guys just go get their own Cup ie create a new one, and leave history alone. The Cup died with the last multi series. It should have been banned from the get go, but the NYYC went limpus dickus and let it be taken away without a whimper. Enjoy drag racing you multi freaks. Enjoy interminable delays because there is wind and waves. Enjoy a joke which will not attract the public. At least in mono's the public could pretend race and enjoy a cottage life with their kids. Multis on the beach are for kids and fun but they are not multi use boats for families. At least in golf you can play the same courses as the pro's. No longer in sailing. Why can't these multitards not realize there is more to sailing than just flat out speed. After the next cup it will be in hydropters (sic?) and then Russian surface airplanes that glide 2 feet off the water. And then why not helicopters that can land on water? Where will it end? Hopefully NYYC will come out with a " continuation" cup for those with education and an historical memory.


are your panties twisted? just asking :P

#185 davidprobable

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Posted 15 September 2010 - 07:00 PM


Queen Victoria would say, not who is second, but rather, what kind of crap is that pretending to be an ocean racing boat? Where is the accommodation? Where are the big waves?

Dunno. Maybe you should ask this bouy racer (Orange II):
Posted Image

Or maybe this one (Groupama III):

Posted Image


These are pupose built 100 foot plus around the world ocean racers. Nice picture as well. Sadly, these are not " buoy " racers nor are they AC boats or anything even close. Why are so many SA posters just clueless? I guess without them there would be little fun or humour to be found.

#186 Trovão

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Posted 15 September 2010 - 07:08 PM

last time i checked, neither the 12s nor the iaccs were ocean racing boats or had any kind of accomodations. so, your point is?

#187 Bulbhunter

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Posted 15 September 2010 - 07:17 PM



Multis on the beach are for kids and fun but they are not multi use boats for families.


That's right. A 12M AC yacht is a nice distance cruiser... :blink:

As for age and families, check out the old guy and the grin on the kid on this finish...Attached File  IMG_Rex_and_Richard_f18.jpg   212.87K   21 downloads


i guess you never saw Ted Turner race War Baby on Lake Michigan and cruise it home thereafter. So many SA members with no knowledge of history.



And Ted Turner is your average boater who would buy your average boat. LOL

#188 AdventureTri

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Posted 15 September 2010 - 07:31 PM

Great looking kids, AdventureTri :)

Do you happen to know what's the asking price for the first molds (meaning how much they'll pay to somebody ridding them of the encumbrance)? B)



I think they said $10K for both amas, and $5k for the molds, but the molds may be cut up by now...

#189 davidprobable

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Posted 15 September 2010 - 07:33 PM

last time i checked, neither the 12s nor the iaccs were ocean racing boats or had any kind of accomodations. so, your point is?



google ted turner and retrofitting boats.........then google warbaby, the 12 meter turner raced long distance and cruised with crew..........I agree the iacc boats were purpose built and probably incapable of retrofitting.............I guarantee you the the AC multi's are fodder for chain saws with no other use except perhaps at a freak show.

#190 davidprobable

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Posted 15 September 2010 - 07:34 PM




Multis on the beach are for kids and fun but they are not multi use boats for families.


That's right. A 12M AC yacht is a nice distance cruiser... :blink:

As for age and families, check out the old guy and the grin on the kid on this finish...Attached File  IMG_Rex_and_Richard_f18.jpg   212.87K   21 downloads


i guess you never saw Ted Turner race War Baby on Lake Michigan and cruise it home thereafter. So many SA members with no knowledge of history.

Back then he was...........read his biography.........his luck started to turn with CNN............damn but SA'ers just can't ever research before belching.............

And Ted Turner is your average boater who would buy your average boat. LOL



#191 Tom O'Keefe

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Posted 15 September 2010 - 07:36 PM

I've also seen US-1's soft sail stablemate race the Ensenada Race and return. So, what of it?

I've restored Defender the 12M to coastal day sailing condition and that was a major project without accomodations.

The AC72s are not going to be fragile little dragsters when they are required to sail in a range of 3-33 knots.

A post AC life for them is just as likely.

#192 rule69

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Posted 15 September 2010 - 07:38 PM



Queen Victoria would say, not who is second, but rather, what kind of crap is that pretending to be an ocean racing boat? Where is the accommodation? Where are the big waves?

Dunno. Maybe you should ask this bouy racer (Orange II):
Posted Image

Or maybe this one (Groupama III):

Posted Image


These are pupose built 100 foot plus around the world ocean racers. Nice picture as well. Sadly, these are not " buoy " racers nor are they AC boats or anything even close. Why are so many SA posters just clueless? I guess without them there would be little fun or humour to be found.


Did you notice the "2" on the bow of the tri? Let's see: day raced around the buoys faster than an IACC yacht? Yes. Ocean capable? Yes. 100 foot plus? No. RTW racer? No. Welcome to the "clueless" club. Everybody's funny, now you funny too.

#193 davidprobable

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Posted 15 September 2010 - 07:43 PM





Multis on the beach are for kids and fun but they are not multi use boats for families.


That's right. A 12M AC yacht is a nice distance cruiser... :blink:

As for age and families, check out the old guy and the grin on the kid on this finish...Attached File  IMG_Rex_and_Richard_f18.jpg   212.87K   21 downloads


i guess you never saw Ted Turner race War Baby on Lake Michigan and cruise it home thereafter. So many SA members with no knowledge of history.

Back then he was...........read his biography.........his luck started to turn with CNN............damn but SA'ers just can't ever research before belching.............

And Ted Turner is your average boater who would buy your average boat. LOL


don't know how these posts get so mixed up, but, what do you call an average boater or an average boat? do you think maybe my concept of average is different from yours? Although Obama has not as yet totally wiped out the middle class, I still think upper middle class sails boats like Swan 60's etc, and that was Ted Turner before the CNN investment et seq.

#194 CrushDigital

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Posted 15 September 2010 - 07:48 PM



Queen Victoria would say, not who is second, but rather, what kind of crap is that pretending to be an ocean racing boat? Where is the accommodation? Where are the big waves?

Dunno. Maybe you should ask this bouy racer (Orange II):


Or maybe this one (Groupama III):



These are pupose built 100 foot plus around the world ocean racers. Nice picture as well. Sadly, these are not " buoy " racers nor are they AC boats or anything even close. Why are so many SA posters just clueless? I guess without them there would be little fun or humour to be found.


You are being purposefully obtuse, which seems to be a theme in your posts. You are basing your arguments on two boats from the last Cup built for an extremely narrow range of conditions. You asked so many pointless questions in your first post, so I'm going to ask a few of my own.

1) If previous Cup boats were such multi-purpose, adaptable, ocean going vessels, why were so many races cancelled during the 2007 LVC due to conditions that were either too strong or too weak?

2) In the same vein, if accommodations and cruisability (really?) are such key features of previous Cup boats, how do you explain the inside of an IACC or 12M? Take the one shown in this link as an example: Steak and Kidney

3) Have you actually read the guidelines for racing in the AC34 protocol, especially those regarding weather conditions in which the boats will be expected to race?

4) Does being an enormous boor come naturally to you or is it something you had to develop over time?

5) Are you aware that there exist multihulled sailing vessels of all shapes and sizes, built for a variety of purposes, or did you believe that the Hobie's were the only multi's out there? (I only ask this last one because you insist that families can't race or cruise on a multi, something numerous bareboat charter operators and Vineyard Race crews would likely disagree with you on)

I'll be waiting for your, as always, well reasoned entirely rational responses. Please enlighten me.

Sincerely,
A clueless SA poster

#195 I'moutahere

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Posted 15 September 2010 - 07:53 PM

last time i checked, neither the 12s nor the iaccs were ocean racing boats or had any kind of accomodations. so, your point is?

There are several 12's that have done Sydney Hobarts.




It's not match racing if you don't have both boats in the same pic.

#196 davidprobable

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Posted 15 September 2010 - 08:05 PM




Queen Victoria would say, not who is second, but rather, what kind of crap is that pretending to be an ocean racing boat? Where is the accommodation? Where are the big waves?

Dunno. Maybe you should ask this bouy racer (Orange II):


Or maybe this one (Groupama III):



These are pupose built 100 foot plus around the world ocean racers. Nice picture as well. Sadly, these are not " buoy " racers nor are they AC boats or anything even close. Why are so many SA posters just clueless? I guess without them there would be little fun or humour to be found.


You are being purposefully obtuse, which seems to be a theme in your posts. You are basing your arguments on two boats from the last Cup built for an extremely narrow range of conditions. You asked so many pointless questions in your first post, so I'm going to ask a few of my own.

1) If previous Cup boats were such multi-purpose, adaptable, ocean going vessels, why were so many races cancelled during the 2007 LVC due to conditions that were either too strong or too weak?

2) In the same vein, if accommodations and cruisability (really?) are such key features of previous Cup boats, how do you explain the inside of an IACC or 12M? Take the one shown in this link as an example: Steak and Kidney

3) Have you actually read the guidelines for racing in the AC34 protocol, especially those regarding weather conditions in which the boats will be expected to race?

4) Does being an enormous boor come naturally to you or is it something you had to develop over time?

5) Are you aware that there exist multihulled sailing vessels of all shapes and sizes, built for a variety of purposes, or did you believe that the Hobie's were the only multi's out there? (I only ask this last one because you insist that families can't race or cruise on a multi, something numerous bareboat charter operators and Vineyard Race crews would likely disagree with you on)

I'll be waiting for your, as always, well reasoned entirely rational responses. Please enlighten me.

Sincerely,
A clueless SA poster


Dear clueless. Have you considered remedial reading classes?
1) nobody said they were ......... you underwrite why I say they started the death of the Cup.
2)I said IACC's were useless to retrofit but numerous 12's have been successfully. Again QED.
3)In fact I am aware of their limitations. No limitations on 12's that did the Sydney Hobarts.
4) Ad hominem you idiot's toenail.
5)yes, but for the purpose of the post I only mentioned one. I knew you would write sayng there are more and also that the sun will come up tomorrow. Good on you.

Finally I think it is obvious you are incapable of being enlightened. Don't forget to take the remedial reading courses.

#197 Barkley

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Posted 15 September 2010 - 08:05 PM

It's not match racing if you don't have both boats in the same pic.


If true, then why have have a design element to a challenge? It they're sailing different boats, one might have a speed advantage and ruin your picture.

#198 davidprobable

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Posted 15 September 2010 - 08:06 PM


last time i checked, neither the 12s nor the iaccs were ocean racing boats or had any kind of accomodations. so, your point is?

There are several 12's that have done Sydney Hobarts.




It's not match racing if you don't have both boats in the same pic.



+1

#199 Asymptote

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Posted 15 September 2010 - 08:09 PM


last time i checked, neither the 12s nor the iaccs were ocean racing boats or had any kind of accomodations. so, your point is?

There are several 12's that have done Sydney Hobarts.

I would bet a whole lot of Aussie bucks that those boats (hulls) were not close to compliant with the 12 meter formula when they did the Hobart.


It's not match racing if you don't have both boats in the same pic.

A better definition is if there isn't a lead change in two hours of sailing then it isn't match racing. By those terms, of course, approximately 80 percent of the Cup races I've seen in person in Newport, San Diego and Valencia or on Virtual Spectator in NZ were not match races.




#200 davidprobable

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Posted 15 September 2010 - 08:09 PM


It's not match racing if you don't have both boats in the same pic.


If true, then why have have a design element to a challenge? It they're sailing different boats, one might have a speed advantage and ruin your picture.



The picture that is ruined by multi hull speed differentials is the television picture. What network would want to cover drag racers that are miles apart due to speed differentials that are huge. Leave drag racing on land. Tacking duels are great tv.




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