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#1 Soņadora

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Posted 16 September 2010 - 09:29 PM

<cue Sandford and Son music>

Not sure where Bob digs these guys up, but they sure are a blast to work with.

thanks GK for the 'Perry and Sons' Monicker (note new avatar)

B)

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#2 Soņadora

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Posted 16 September 2010 - 09:38 PM

I can hear Bob..."You big dummy!"

:P

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#3 Bob Perry

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Posted 16 September 2010 - 09:42 PM

Sons:
Love the avatar. Beautiful work.

Hey! you big dummy! You forgot the stays holding down the mizzen backstay.

#4 Jose Carumba

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Posted 16 September 2010 - 09:51 PM

Oh, Very nice. Not too keen on the pilothouse though. Maybe a different paint scheme or some bright finished wood like the cabin sides would help.

How does one get from the "lounging cockpit to the side decks? Looks difficult. I don't think you could really do anything about it though without ruining the beautiful line of the cabin sides.

The mizzen must be stepped on the coach roof or (gasp) the companionway is offset.

Very interesting termination for the mizzen backstay. Do you flatten the mizzen by adding more gear to the dinghy? ;) Maybe there's a davit vang. I'm sure Bob has it all worked out though. (edit) Apparently he has.

#5 Bob Perry

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Posted 16 September 2010 - 09:59 PM

Jose:
What you see here is the product of many, many, many paint and deck finish schemes. The original knee jerk approach was as you said to have teak on the PG sides too. But in the end the client preferred it this way. I do too.

Keep in mind: this is a custom design for a client who calls the shots then Sons and I do our best to make his ideas come to life. Nothing you see here is arbitrary. This has been many months of design work.

Access and egress from the CC: If you can't climb out of the CC you probably don;t belong on a boat. If it's rough you go to the aft cockpit. Miz stepped on deck. If it's nice and you want to nap in the sun you lay out in the long CC.

I must say having Sons to work with on the modelling has been a huge asset to the project. The client has put Sons to the test and Sons has responded. But, we are not done yet. There are little fiddly things to clean up still. Sons and I just thought you might like to see what we have been up to lately.

#6 Greever

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Posted 16 September 2010 - 10:04 PM

Now that is far out and out of sight pops'!

Note the client had the good sense to put a pilothouse on his cruising boat.......


VERY nice work guys.

#7 Soņadora

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Posted 16 September 2010 - 10:07 PM

yeah. what Fred...errr I mean Bob said regarding the aft stays. I'll have updated images with correct rigging soon. This is a work in progress. Very much so, as a matter of fact.

Funny how these images just sort of pop up out of nowhere, like we just farted them out :lol:

Bob's client is VERY MUCH into this. I bet when he moves into a house, the movers have to move the couch like 350 times before he finds the right spot. I can respect that. It's great to see someone have such passion about a major project like this.

#8 Jose Carumba

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Posted 16 September 2010 - 10:28 PM

Jose:
What you see here is the product of many, many, many paint and deck finish schemes. The original knee jerk approach was as you said to have teak on the PG sides too. But in the end the client preferred it this way. I do too.

Keep in mind: this is a custom design for a client who calls the shots then Sons and I do our best to make his ideas come to life. Nothing you see here is arbitrary. This has been many months of design work.

Access and egress from the CC: If you can't climb out of the CC you probably don;t belong on a boat. If it's rough you go to the aft cockpit. Miz stepped on deck. If it's nice and you want to nap in the sun you lay out in the long CC.

I must say having Sons to work with on the modelling has been a huge asset to the project. The client has put Sons to the test and Sons has responded. But, we are not done yet. There are little fiddly things to clean up still. Sons and I just thought you might like to see what we have been up to lately.


Yep, I certainly know about custom design and the client calling the shots and there is nothing arbitrary about our boats either, although sometimes customer requirements make it look that way. I still don't like the pilothouse finish. The rest of the boat is very beautiful though.

My legs are shorter than most people's, even for my height, and I have achilles issues so I have a tough time with most center cockpit coamings, but it doesn't mean I shouldn't be sailing. It's a critical design area for me personally.

Sons, you have of course done a wonderfull modeling and rendering job. Good on ya!

#9 Paps

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Posted 16 September 2010 - 10:29 PM

Noice work boys, Sons you are getting very good at this.


Edit. Bob did you try the PH in the nonskid colour? Might blend in better.

#10 Bob Perry

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Posted 16 September 2010 - 10:40 PM

Jose:
Ok, then the easy answer would be for you to go back down the companionway into the main salon, take a right go aft and then come back out into the aft cockpit. You are still going to have to climb over the coaming to get in and out of the aft cockpit. Note there is a sturdy a high hand rail that doubles as a back rest at the CC. Most cc's are a bit hard to get in and out of unless there is an door cut inot them and that is unusual and is a problem with the layout and headroom. Actually, now I think about it. the coaming around the cc is very low, 4" abv house top so it's far easier to climb out of this cc than most. You just grab the handrail and step out of the seat area that is only recessed 4" below the house top. This is far better than most cc's.

Paps:
We tried all the colors on the PH even black. This is the way I like it and the client agrees. I want contrast to the deck nonskid color.

#11 Schnick

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Posted 16 September 2010 - 10:43 PM

I like it. I find 'matching' PH color schemes make the PH part of the boat's lines, and can be ugly, while usually canvas dodgers remain separate from the lines of the boat. A contrasting PH does the same, the eye does not see it as 'part' of the boat. And this dual cockpit pilothouse arrangement was tried and true on the old ocean racers, circa 'Flyer' from the first whitbread races.

#12 Cement_Shoes

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Posted 16 September 2010 - 10:53 PM

I like it. I find 'matching' PH color schemes make the PH part of the boat's lines, and can be ugly, while usually canvas dodgers remain separate from the lines of the boat. A contrasting PH does the same, the eye does not see it as 'part' of the boat. And this dual cockpit pilothouse arrangement was tried and true on the old ocean racers, circa 'Flyer' from the first whitbread races.



I agree with you about the unmatched PH color. The light color draws the least amount of unflattering attention to it as possible without looking like it is trying to be disguised.


Those early Whitbread double cockpit boats utilized two working cockpits. This isn't the case here.

#13 Bob Perry

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Posted 16 September 2010 - 11:06 PM

I think that's it. There is no way I can "disguise" a ph this prominant.
The cc is not a "working cocckpit". It is a lounging cockpit. We put two winches adjacent to the companionway as an optional way of handling halyards. But they are likely to go way.

#14 Jose Carumba

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Posted 16 September 2010 - 11:09 PM

Bob,

Lets see 2.5" for hand rail height, 4" coaming, and maybe 12-13" house top height. Is that about right? Not too bad. What is the height of the seat back?

#15 Bulbhunter

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Posted 16 September 2010 - 11:11 PM

Bob does that center pit double has a hot tub? Cool concept - great idea for keeping the riff raff out of the office space ha ha - I think Swan or Baltic had a two seating area cockpit in some of their cutter rigs. Always thought that was a cool idea

#16 The Advocate

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Posted 16 September 2010 - 11:14 PM

Absolutely gorgeous Bob.

Great rendering Sons, looks superb.

Any details though Bob or is this just a tease from you and Sons. :P

#17 Bob Perry

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Posted 16 September 2010 - 11:15 PM

Jose:
No.
The handrail is a "double runger" and it is 10" high and sits on a low "coaming" that is 4" above the house top. The seat flat is recessed 4" below the house top. But there will be cushions. The recss is just to hold the cushions in place. The "seat back" would be 4" plus 4" plus 10" for 18" without the cushions and 14" with the cushions. I had planned to uphoster part of the upper rung of the hand rail but the client did not like the look.
There will be a drop leaf tale in the cc.

Ad:
No this is not a tease this is a design project for an east coast client. We will be looking for a builder sooon. I have talked to several and they are eager to get the specs. All the preliminary drawings are done.

#18 The Advocate

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Posted 16 September 2010 - 11:23 PM

Any chance of some specs, maybe and interior layout?

#19 Bob Perry

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Posted 16 September 2010 - 11:31 PM

Ad:
No. I won't publish the specs. Too much work too much information to just give those away.
I'll post a drawing of the interior tomorrow.
If by "specs" you mean primary dimensions try these:
LOA 57.18'
DWL 47.93'
Beam 15.00'
Draft 7.00'
Displ 45,000 lbs half load

#20 The Advocate

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Posted 16 September 2010 - 11:45 PM

Cheers Bob, that's what I meant!

I'll try and use the correct terms from here on :unsure:

Looking forward to seeing the interior layout tomorrow.

#21 Bob Perry

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Posted 16 September 2010 - 11:48 PM

Ad:
When I hear "specs" I think of a multiple page document laying out pretty much every part of the boat in writing.
Maybe because I am writig the "specs" now I was a bit too quick to pounce. Sorry.

#22 The Advocate

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Posted 16 September 2010 - 11:55 PM

Ad:
When I hear "specs" I think of a multiple page document laying out pretty much every part of the boat in writing.
Maybe because I am writig the "specs" now I was a bit too quick to pounce. Sorry.

No bump no foul Bob, I blurted it out in excitement at seeing the boat, with my time in the industry, I should know better.

Looking at it I thought mid 50's, was just interested to know.

Again, it's gorgeous.

#23 Greever

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 12:12 AM

I too am eagerly awaiting the interior drawings. Those are my favorite!

#24 Bob Perry

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 01:46 AM

Ad:
You are right on. My while image was from the mid '50's. I'm glad someone picked it up.

Hi Tom.

#25 Hike, Bitches!

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 03:06 AM

I really dislike 'pilot houses' on boats, but if you gotta put one in, at least put it behind the mizzen.

Nice work gentlemen!

#26 The Advocate

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 03:50 AM

OK, have been looking at the 4 drawings all morning.

Anyone got some good tips as to how to wipe the drool from between the keys?

#27 lord_nougat

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 04:08 AM

Ewww!! That's not drool!

You REALLY like this boat!

OK, have been looking at the 4 drawings all morning.

Anyone got some good tips as to how to wipe the drool from between the keys?



#28 Craig Smith

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 04:18 AM

What's with that horrible obsolete anchor shown on the bow? :unsure:

#29 steele

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 04:18 AM

I know very little about big boats, but it looks perfect for the Northwest. I will take mine with less brightwork and a bow thruster. One question, what are the winches forward of the CC for? Are they just back ups for the mains in the aft cockpit, or are they required to sail the boat, which would require added crew forward. Maybe just needed for the spin? Consider the couch of ignorance occupied.

#30 Paps

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 08:38 AM

Bob, Im sure you will take this in the spirit it is meant ie comment not critique. To my eye the problem with the PH is that its the CA36 PH on a nearly 60 footer, the scale is all wonky. I know this was common with older classic designs bump here bump there and the reproduction J's etc promulgate the style.

I cant help thinking there is a better mousetrap. Of course I understand this is all in the clients eyes as it should be, just couldnt suppress the emotion.

And if you dont take it in the spirit you can HTFU which was on the BB cap I spied the other day. Will keep an eye out for a Burbury version.

#31 us7070

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 11:12 AM

i think it look great - even the pilot house...

#32 Tom Ray

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 11:26 AM

I think that's it. There is no way I can "disguise" a ph this prominant.
The cc is not a "working cocckpit". It is a lounging cockpit.


I thought it looked like a doggy play pen. Libby gets pissed off if no one throws her ball.

Posted Image

People who don't like the look of the pilothouse should sit out in the rain and see if it looks better from out there. ;) (or in the case of us Florida folks, out in the heat, but the 7' draft tells me this boat isn't coming to the Gulf Coast.)

#33 Gatekeeper

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 11:29 AM

I give the pilothouse an A+....it's a functional component that doesn't dominate the boat.

She looks sweet. Well done team Posted Image


Perry and Sons
Yacht Design and Rendering
(WLYDO Approved)








#34 Tom Ray

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 11:38 AM

Bob does that center pit double has a hot tub?


Gas powered hot tub that lifts out to become a jet ski?

(Sorry, I just have to make the real sailors cringe sometimes.)

#35 Greever

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 12:02 PM

i think it look great - even the pilot house...



Whaddya mean, "even the pilothouse"? :o

The Pilothouse is the best looking and most functional part of the boat! The client will get bonus points if the PH has a wheel in it...


Bonus, bonus points for a loudass foghorn and a spotlight........B)

#36 Greever

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 12:06 PM

Bob, Im sure you will take this in the spirit it is meant ie comment not critique. To my eye the problem with the PH is that its the CA36 PH on a nearly 60 footer, the scale is all wonky. I know this was common with older classic designs bump here bump there and the reproduction J's etc promulgate the style.

I cant help thinking there is a better mousetrap. Of course I understand this is all in the clients eyes as it should be, just couldnt suppress the emotion.

And if you dont take it in the spirit you can HTFU which was on the BB cap I spied the other day. Will keep an eye out for a Burbury version.



I think in the old days they would call this style of Pilothouse a "doghouse".


But I'm going to keep calling it a pilothouse just the same. :)

#37 olaf hart

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 12:26 PM

It looks more like a hard dodger, not a pilothouse.

Looks sweet to me, nicely done.

I would like to see the interior plan, usually center cockpits involve compromises to the interior.

Keen to see how Bob plans to get around this.

#38 Soņadora

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 12:58 PM

Here's a shot of the cockpit

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#39 Hike, Bitches!

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 01:04 PM

What's with that horrible obsolete anchor shown on the bow? :unsure:


Craig, you need to supply a proper file for Sons to put into his rendering program...maybe it will get you some business too!

#40 Bob Perry

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 01:45 PM

Wow, it sure is interesting to read the reactions to the design. Thanks for contributing your ideas. I have advised the client to check in to CA once and a while to see what is going on here.

The pilot house is the result of two clinet requirements: He wants to get out of the bunk and stand up and have 360 degrte view of his surroundings (his berth is aft). He wants a snug place for his wife to sit while they are beating to weather in a blow where she can be protected. The aft cockpit is really designed for two people. Note the two levels aft for visibility over the house. the length of the house is what it needs to be to acomplish our goals and not interfere with the arrangement of the cc. Fart is right, it's almost more of a hard dodger or as Greevs said, a "doghouse".

This is a complex deck design. There is a lot going on here. It might be good to consider the domino effect of suggested revisions before posting them. Believe me, I think I have considered everything possible and what is you see here represents a balance of features.

The center cockpit is designed for lounging and outside dining. I tried all kinds of wrap around coaming treatments and finally decided on getting rid of the coaming altogether vecase I think it made the profile cleaner. I retained a small, low "boss" for the rails that form the seatback. The winches shown on Son's rendfering are the client's idea and he is already having second thoughts about them. I'm ambivalent on them. I see them as adding cost.

Paps:
I would wear that hat. Proudly.

I'll get the interior layout up here today. It is sure to cause some interesting comments.

#41 Soņadora

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 02:19 PM

I was (sort of) surprised about the comments too, especially the ones with all the hate on the Pilothouse/Doghouse/Dodger. :blink:

When you all see the interior layout, it should be apparent that this is a very personal design. It's because of this that we have guys like Robert Perry around to satisfy such a personal endeavor. Think about it, if you had your way with a 60 footer, you'd go apeshit too with all sorts of "interesting" ideas. Especially considering this crowd. 60 feet is a lot of boat.

I've been really fortunate to be a small part of this process with Bob on a few projects and it's humbling, to be honest. It's easy to be cocky and think something is stupid or even ridiculous, but when you're a part of the process from the ground up the perspective is quite a bit different. One is more willing to entertain certain ideas and Bob has a real knack for nowing when an idea is do-able and when it's downright awful. His skill is helping the client realize the difference.

BTW Bob, I added those baby stays to the aft stay. The rendering is sitting at home on my computer.

#42 Bob Perry

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 02:30 PM

Here is the layout. This is the result of counless revisions and exploration of possibilities.
Initially the client came to me looking for an existing boat. But he quyickl;y realized that his own ideas, formulated over years of sailing, were not reflected in any available stock boat. So we began the proces of assembling his preferences and puuting them together as one cogent design. It was hard. We truied an aft cockpit boat. We tried a center cockpit boat. We ended up with both aft and center cockpits. This put a lot of pressure on the design.
The owner is quite a chef so there is a big galley. The refer and freezer are se[erate and large. He wanted the nav station aft. He did not want any double berths. He wants climb out of the bunk and stand up and survey his surrounding without having to go on deck. He wants a ddedicated desk for his wife. He was not intereseted in shower stalls. He wanted a pilot berth. He wants to be able to sleep six using one salon settee and the pilot berth. Note the starboard settee is deep and perfect for sleeping and lounging. The wet locker is under the companionway steps from the cc. Note the way I have expanded the aft companuion way steps to make a raised platform where the owner can stand and have good visibility out the PH windows.

Attached Files



#43 starkindler

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 02:39 PM

The railings on the cockpit coamings look to be tripping hazards in my mind. They might be moved outboard to the vertical surfaces if a handhold for those on the sidedeck is required. A lip on the inside of the coaming could provide something to grab onto from the inboard location.

Access to the primary winches appears to be somewhat compromised. They are no doubt powered, but it does appear to be an awkward reach around the fixed dodger. I appreciate that cockpit access requires that they be somewhat forward, but some locational fine tuning may be required.

Is there to be sunbrella coverings for all that gleaming woodwork :rolleyes: .

Stunning boat.

Starkindler

#44 Bob Perry

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 02:47 PM

Starkers:
The primaries are aft just forward of the wheel. There is nothing there to reach around at all. The winches you are seeing as the primaries are powered halyard and mainsheet winches.
I'm a firm believed in fine tuning the deck layout when the deck plug is almost done. This way you can situate the gear as per the drawing and se where you can make improvements.
In this case, there are a lot of lines coming aft to a small cockpit with more pressure put on by the hard dodger PH. W/O the ph the layout would have been very different. I actually enlisted Hung to help me with this layout. I trust his jusdgement on these things. His help was very valuable. He has a lot of sea miles and he is a sailor's sailor.

#45 Cement_Shoes

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 02:53 PM

Bob,

Was there ever any thoughts of doing this as a keel/centerboard either with the 7 foot draft to improve upwind performance or as a shoaler draft to open up a few more cruising grounds?

#46 Bob Perry

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 03:02 PM

Cement:
We discussed all the keel ideas as the owner lives in Annapolis an umderstands draft restrictions. But he intends to keep the boat mainly in other areas. We initially went with 6.5' draft. But we did a series of VPP runs looking at other drafts and finally decided on 7' draft. The change in VMG was surprisingly minimal but the change in stability was worth the additional 6". We have a limit of positive stabilit of 130 degrees. That was important to the client and his wife.

#47 Tom Ray

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 03:29 PM

He wants a snug place for his wife to sit while they are beating to weather in a blow where she can be protected. The aft cockpit is really designed for two people. Note the two levels aft for visibility over the house. the length of the house is what it needs to be to acomplish our goals and not interfere with the arrangement of the cc. Fart is right, it's almost more of a hard dodger or as Greevs said, a "doghouse".


In Lamont's picture it sure looks like a hard dodger to me. Shouldn't anything with "house" in the name have a back door?

And where is the seat for the wife to sit on while hiding behind the dodger? Wives are not the only ones who like to do that.

#48 Cruisin Loser

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 03:29 PM

I really like the hull lines, and love the idea that she has real sea berths, she looks meant for sailing. We love our pilot berth. She looks like a great boat for adventuring. You shouldn't tempt me like this, I keep saying I'm happy with the boat I have now.

Most of the boats I see with the teak clad cabin trunks also have teak decks. For me, the toe rail, eyebrows, Dorades and cockpit coaming would be plenty. A couple of summers ago I saw an Alden 54 which had had the whole treatment, went from a glass deck and cabin to teak everywhere, either to walk on or to varnish. IMO, she was converted at great expense from a wonderful, practical sailboat to a maintenance nightmare. I guess if you have the money to keep the varnish elves busy it will look nice.

On shorthanded overnights with inexperienced crew, there are times I don't need to be awake, but it's handy if I'm on deck. I think the owner has found a very clever workaround with the aft single bunk position. I like that a lot. Still, I wonder about the cockpit - are the benches long enough for someone over 6' tall to stretch out?

Does the forward cabin really have two hanging lockers? I'd have a small bureau with drawers under and lockers above and outboard to one side. A place to set down sunglasses and empty pockets.

I'm assuming that there will be a drop leaf or folding table for the lounging cockpit, so breakfast or dinner can be had on deck. Breakfast at the cockpit table in Mistake Harbor is one of the great pleasures in life, especially if yesterdays foraging ashore produced wild blueberries which have found their way into pancakes.

This boat is almost hypnotic to me. I've been staring when I should be working. Will someone be building a mold?

#49 Soņadora

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 03:33 PM

I really like the hull lines, and love the idea that she has real sea berths, she looks meant for sailing. We love our pilot berth. She looks like a great boat for adventuring. You shouldn't tempt me like this, I keep saying I'm happy with the boat I have now.

Most of the boats I see with the teak clad cabin trunks also have teak decks. For me, the toe rail, eyebrows, Dorades and cockpit coaming would be plenty. A couple of summers ago I saw an Alden 54 which had had the whole treatment, went from a glass deck and cabin to teak everywhere, either to walk on or to varnish. IMO, she was converted at great expense from a wonderful, practical sailboat to a maintenance nightmare. I guess if you have the money to keep the varnish elves busy it will look nice.

On shorthanded overnights with inexperienced crew, there are times I don't need to be awake, but it's handy if I'm on deck. I think the owner has found a very clever workaround with the aft single bunk position. I like that a lot. Still, I wonder about the cockpit - are the benches long enough for someone over 6' tall to stretch out?

Does the forward cabin really have two hanging lockers? I'd have a small bureau with drawers under and lockers above and outboard to one side. A place to set down sunglasses and empty pockets.

I'm assuming that there will be a drop leaf or folding table for the lounging cockpit, so breakfast or dinner can be had on deck. Breakfast at the cockpit table in Mistake Harbor is one of the great pleasures in life, especially if yesterdays foraging ashore produced wild blueberries which have found their way into pancakes.

This boat is almost hypnotic to me. I've been staring when I should be working. Will someone be building a mold?



THAT'S WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT! :D

#50 Gatekeeper

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 03:37 PM

Bob

It's been awhile since I've seen this group so excited about a design...perhaps she may be defined as a "groundbreaking" boat...amazing how nice a boat can be when the owner is a sailor.

Told ya so :lol:


Thanks for letting us into the process.

#51 palindrome

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 03:38 PM

Bob and Sons, wow simply wow, once again the renderings are absolutlely stunning. I love the hard dodger, anyone who sails in the wet appreciates a good dodger. Just curious, but how does the dodger line up to the owners eye height. It appears that looking through the dodger the forward deck height might interfere with the view and if he would be looking over it, the wind and rain would be blinding at the 9.9 knots indicated on the GPS display.

Love the over all design, BRAVO!

Pal

#52 Jose Carumba

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 03:54 PM

I was (sort of) surprised about the comments too, especially the ones with all the hate on the Pilothouse/Doghouse/Dodger. :blink:

When you all see the interior layout, it should be apparent that this is a very personal design. It's because of this that we have guys like Robert Perry around to satisfy such a personal endeavor. Think about it, if you had your way with a 60 footer, you'd go apeshit too with all sorts of "interesting" ideas. Especially considering this crowd. 60 feet is a lot of boat.

I've been really fortunate to be a small part of this process with Bob on a few projects and it's humbling, to be honest. It's easy to be cocky and think something is stupid or even ridiculous, but when you're a part of the process from the ground up the perspective is quite a bit different. One is more willing to entertain certain ideas and Bob has a real knack for nowing when an idea is do-able and when it's downright awful. His skill is helping the client realize the difference.

BTW Bob, I added those baby stays to the aft stay. The rendering is sitting at home on my computer.


Well, the pictures were posted without any other information. Once the client's needs are explained the design starts to make sense. On CA you have to expect honest opinions to be freely expressed and sometimes feathers get ruffled. I think, overall the design is, as one poster put it, stunning, but the one thing I don't like is the pilothouse. I don't like it, but I don't hate it either. I am sure the client will love it though, and that is very important. The cc is among the best if not the best I have seen for being unobtrusive. I may have a hard time getting in and out of it but it's not my boat and if it works for the client then there ya go.

The interior is great. Pilot berths, a really great galley, ennough room around the engine, and two staterooms at either end. What's not to love?

#53 Bob Perry

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 03:55 PM

Cruisin:
Yes, the forward cabin does have two hanging lockers for now but I could change one to a bureau. So far this is what the client wants.
The benches in the aft cockpit are nt long enough to stretch out on. But you can sit under the overhang athwartships and relax. That's why we did the bridge deck there.

The boat will be built as a one off so no molds. But if a builder cam along and wanted to build molds I think we would be interested in discussing the possibility.

Pal:
Look closely at the aft cockpitin Sons rendering. There are two standing levels there. The owner's wife can comfortably see over the PH when she is at the wheel. It was designed for that. Note also that I have pulled the sides of the PH in from the low cabin trunk so it is easy to look around the PH from the wheel.

Jose:
The PH is an important cpmponent of this opverall design. Without it just about everything aft woud be different.
As for the access an agress to the cc. Take a look at any similar sized cc design. CC's are not easy to get in and out of. That's one reason I prfer an aft cockpit. Our cc has no wrap arund coaming so you can get out aft and minimize the step. With the high backrest bard/hand rail you can grab on there and make it to the side deck easily.

Don't think for a moment that I did not expect critical comments. That's one of the reasons I like to post my work here. My "feathers" only get ruffled when people make critical comments before they understand the design and the parmaters that drove the design. Then it's my turn to ruffle feathers. It took several months to get the design this far and a cursory examination of the features may not be enough to fully understand how the various components segue with each other. It becomes literally a battle of inches. It's probably my fault for not laying out out the requirements in detail here. But that would be very time consuming. Just assume that 99.5% of what you see here is not arbitrary. My knee jerk reaction to critical comments goes something like this, "Fine, great now how would you handle all the other details that depend upon the existing design treatment?"

Now, if you see an problematic area and you have a solution that would not require redesign of the adjecent 15' of boat and would satisfy the needs/demands of the client then I am all ears. After all, in the end I will get the design credit. And is is very obvious that we could improve upon almost all aspects of the desig if we just added more LOA. But we have already done that. We started this design at 50' and mission creep has brought us to the current LOA.

I have a lot of respect for the CA crew. The WLYDO is a powerful force in the industry and I want to tap into the ideas there.

#54 sailman

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 03:59 PM

<cue Sandford and Son music>

Not sure where Bob digs these guys up, but they sure are a blast to work with.

thanks GK for the 'Perry and Sons' Monicker (note new avatar)

B)


Now that is dead sexy Lamont!

#55 Soņadora

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 04:04 PM

What's with that horrible obsolete anchor shown on the bow? :unsure:



hah! Craig, if you can get your engineers to send me a 3D IGES (or better yet, Parasolid/native SolidWorks) of any of your anchors, I can certainly show it. Send it to rbeddoe@sail2live.com or PM me a link where I can download.

#56 Soņadora

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 04:07 PM

Jose, you feather ruffler you...:P Your opinions are always welcome and appreciated Joe. I have a great deal of respect for you and your experience in this business.

#57 Bob Perry

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 04:12 PM

Lamont:
Well said. That goes for me too.

#58 Hike, Bitches!

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 04:15 PM

Sons...better fix up your e-mail address there..the bots & crawlers will soon have that and you'll get spammed forever.

--> rbeddoe at sail2live dot com

#59 Bob Perry

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 04:52 PM

Here is some more design work for your scrutiny.
To start with:
I wanted a cutter. Client has always wanted a ketch. Client wins that argument. Funny how that happens. But that discussion still goes on and on. We'll see.
I wanted no bowsprit. Lost that one too. But I do see it's advantages.
Looked at an ICW friendly rig but the boat kept screaming, "No! Please don't cut my balls off!" We spent a lot of time loking at this including VPP's.
Mast placement and rig proportions are not arbitrary. They have to work with the layout and in the case of the mizzen I had about 3" to play with.

And probably the most important driving force of the look of this design was the wife's preference for a graceful "feminine" looking boat.
One of our very first prelimiary drawings showed the boat with a plumb stem,a muscular and functional looking boat. My clinet referred to this version as the "De Niro" bow, i.e. "You talkin' to me?"
I got an email first thing the next morning "She could not have hated it more."
Oops.
So we began with a shape that had some overhangs and that's how the general look came about.

Attached Files



#60 steele

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 05:11 PM

Another thread that is providing lots of passive education. One thing I do not get is the fuss over CC access. It is not a funcional part of the sail plan (the winches are optional) and it has a perfectly servicable companionway to the interior. I see it as a luxury feature, like a deck on your house, so the need to scramble in and out the sides seems minimal anyway. Need to get aft? Climb down the stairs, grab a beer in the galley, pop up in the doghouse.

#61 Gatekeeper

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 05:13 PM

Bob


The only thing that catches my eye is the centre cockpit...I think I may have asked to have the aft corners eased and the seating area U shaped. The facing benches look a bit odd to me, but they probably aren't meant to be viewed from the top of the mast.

I will say the aft cockpit design does look safe, secure and cozy. Easy to see the owner has his sailing priorities well defined.

Is the dark blue likely to be the choice of hull colour?? It looks perfect for the boat.

#62 Bob Perry

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 05:17 PM

Steele;
I agree but allow me to defend Jose here. We are talkig custom design here so it's all about personal quirks and preferences. I hear Jose loud and clear. And when he designs his own custom boat, and I assure you he is very capable of it, he will have cockpit access that suits him. I think it's natural to evaluate any new design from your own personal requirements point of view.

Gate:
For now the colors are as Sons has them rendered.
Look at the deck plan. There is a mainshet trav accross the aft end of the CC. Maybe you want to sit on that. Hey, we all have our liitle turn ons. I would prefer not to sit on it.

This is fun. I should get to work though. Kim is probably wondering why I am not drawing his deck lines.

#63 Gatekeeper

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 05:22 PM

Ok...I get it...show off.

Sons left it out of the rendering. Let's blame it on him.

Posted Image




#64 Bob Perry

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 05:28 PM

Gate:
Yeah, that's it. It was Sons fault.

The client is monitoring this conversation from Quatar. He's on vacation. He is thinking about posting.
I trust you will all give him the traditional SA welcome when he shows up.
I think he could add a lot to this conversation.

#65 Greever

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 05:37 PM

Bob: Have the Client consider a folding teak grate to cover the forward head. Makes it a lot easier to sit down showering without slipping on the damn lid to the head.

I like the ladder in the anchor locker. Nice touch.......

#66 Slim

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 06:09 PM

If nothing else, this thread gives me new appreciation of all the bits and pieces that go into a custom boat. That you can balance all those and still come out with something so good looking is an art.

#67 Soņadora

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 06:16 PM

guys, if you're going to blame me, do it right:

Posted Image

#68 Bob Perry

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 06:21 PM

Greevs:
Good idea. Thanks.

Slim:
As a wise man once said ( I think it was 10cc's) "Art for art's sake. Money for God's sake."

#69 Gatekeeper

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 07:09 PM

The client is monitoring this conversation from Quatar. He's on vacation. He is thinking about posting.
I trust you will all give him the traditional SA welcome when he shows up.
I think he could add a lot to this conversation.


OK...but I think we all deserve an afternoon aboard once she's launched. I'm not far away and I'll bring a nice bottle of wine.

(Bob. Nice avatar...I've created a monster)








#70 Hike, Bitches!

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 07:41 PM

Can you even get down the ICW with 7' of draft now? :unsure:

#71 Bob Perry

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 08:02 PM

Bitches:
Not an issue for us.

If we had gone to the ICW rig we thought we would return to the 6.5' draft.
But we didn't. I really don't know anything about draft limitatiions on the ICW.
Maybe soemone here can educate me on that.

#72 Tom Ray

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 08:03 PM

Can you even get down the ICW with 7' of draft now? :unsure:


No, but considering that the boat is too tall for a lot of the bridges and intended for other places anyway, it doesn't really matter.

#73 Soņadora

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 08:08 PM

(Bob. Nice avatar...I've created a monster)




yes GK, you have ;)

#74 treef

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 08:21 PM

Once again, the best thread on SA is in CA.

Bob: thank you for sharing. It's fascinating to hear the points and counter-points as you talk about the design.

She's a lovely boat. When I grow up, I think I would like a boat like that.

#75 Bob Perry

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 08:24 PM

Treef:
My pleasure. Sons and I are proud of our work. We think we are good at it. I think Sons is the best there is at this type of work. We really enjoy showing you guys what we are doing.

#76 Gatekeeper

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 08:34 PM

I have a question...why not a saildrive??

The engine seems to be positioned ok for one relative to the keel (or not?)



#77 Bob Perry

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 08:55 PM

Gate:
They don't make one big enough in the yanmar series.

#78 Jose Carumba

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 09:44 PM

Bob,

Were any thoughts given to a hybrid drive system? There afe some nice units coming on the market these days.

#79 palindrome

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 10:11 PM

Bob, I have gone over these plans all day (sorry Boss) and I can only see minor issues, but then I am not the customer. I agree Bob, I think it would be better suited as a Cutter, more efficient, less friggin with the riggin and Cof G friendly when reefed, plus I like cutters. My only other complaint is with the early drawings with the spray hood over the center cockpit access, it does not flow with the rest of the boat. If it was my boat and it is not, I would have a dedicated shower enclosure as well, nothing worse than soaking down the heads area or using a curtain arrangement. But I am sure this yacht will have a transom shower too, but some women don't like showering naked on the transom (go figure). Is a CC shade awning optional or is it included in the price tag, LOL

Very nice indeed, now where is my piggy bank.

Pal

#80 starkindler

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 10:51 PM

Starkers:
The primaries are aft just forward of the wheel. There is nothing there to reach around at all. The winches you are seeing as the primaries are powered halyard and mainsheet winches.
I'm a firm believed in fine tuning the deck layout when the deck plug is almost done. This way you can situate the gear as per the drawing and se where you can make improvements.
In this case, there are a lot of lines coming aft to a small cockpit with more pressure put on by the hard dodger PH. W/O the ph the layout would have been very different. I actually enlisted Hung to help me with this layout. I trust his jusdgement on these things. His help was very valuable. He has a lot of sea miles and he is a sailor's sailor.


Bob,

I was referring to the winches at the aft cockpit, but now that I look at the plans it may be that Sons has taken some liberty with their location and the size of the winch pedastels :blink:
I put quite a few miles on a friend's Trintella 49A where all the string leads back to the aft sailing cockpit, and it worked quite well. It had a big primary plus two secondaries (one powered) per side, with hydraulic in-mast reefing for the main. Lousy main sheet set-up, but that was fixable.

Starkindler

#81 Bob Perry

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 11:01 PM

Pal:
Thanks for that. I hear you. There was a time when I showered twice a day (out damn spot). Since I moved to the beach I shower on Wednesday even if I don't need it. The cat thinks I'm cool and dog never complains.
But that's me and you and my client is different and God love him for that because without that he would have bought a Hylas, a Hallberg Rasster or an Erster. He likes it his way. Can you even imagine what a rare bird this is?

I'm with you totally on the cutter thing and so it my client. Trust me he knows the trade offs. But he has this image of a ketch. He is painting a beautiful work of art that reflects the way he sees life on the water and in that beautiful picture is a boat and it's a ketch. It's my job to bring that picture to life.

Starkers:
It's Son's fault and that my story and I'm sticking to it.

Fart:
Come on. Chime in.

#82 Boomberries

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 11:13 PM

I'm with you totally on the cutter thing and so it my client. Trust me he knows the trade offs. But he has this image of a ketch. He is painting a beautiful work of art that reflects the way he sees life on the water and in that beautiful picture is a boat and it's a ketch. It's my job to bring that picture to life.

That's a wonderful way to describe the connection between the dreamer and designer. : )

And describing WHL as "a sailor's sailor" - is ... well .... perfect.

As always, it's a great learning experience reading the constructive comments, compliments and feedback from everyone.

#83 olaf hart

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 11:22 PM

To me, it looks like a 47 foot center cockpit boat with an aft cockpit on the back.

I think that adds to the design, it gets around the limitations of both types of boat.

It gets around the center cockpit interior issues by using a shallow cockpit, so the seats are at the top of the deckhouse.

Half of the interior space eaten up is galley counter, so it is not lost, a bit like the old Stevens/Hylas 47 arrangement.

The rest is engine, so it is OK.

If you lowered the height of the engine compartment aft you might fit a desk or office there, but I guess you need a lot of room for systems in a boat this size.

My wife would not even consider a boat this size as a two person cruiser, but a cutter ketch is a more wife friendly rig than a cutter rig.

The center cockpit seats. The old Hylas 47 tried the same trick using seats with shallow backs, and this is one of their problems.

The rails are a good idea, but have you considered folding seats with some sort of closed cell foam back cushions, so the backs blend into the cabin top when they are down?

I like the walk through bathroom to the back cabin. If you must waste space on a second head, this is the way to do it.

#84 olaf hart

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 11:28 PM

Another comment, especially for a one off build.

The wood cabin sides look great, but if they are solid this will eventually be the boat's achilles heel.

If they are a thick veneer over a moulded cabin top, they could be removed and replaced like a teak deck, and being vertical there would not be the same water wicking problems along the screws.

A lot of nice boats have been ruined by solid wood cabin sides and teak decks.

On the power winch side of things, I realise cost is probably not a big issue with this design, but I have often considered the benefits of a single electric rope winch on the wheel pedestal.

If all the cockpit halyards and sheets run through jammers or self tailers, you could just use the one central winch as a power assist, and then free off the rope and it is already cleated.

#85 Gatekeeper

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 11:35 PM

Gate:
They don't make one big enough in the yanmar series.


Bob

You, like I,. am a Yanmar fan, only because they have earned it....given the choice you had to make, I wouldn't give up Yanmar power for ANYTHING.

I hate engines, but if you have to have one, a Yanmar is top self.

Good choice. Run with it...and you'll run with it for a lifetime.

#86 olaf hart

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 11:45 PM


Gate:
They don't make one big enough in the yanmar series.


Bob

You, like I,. am a Yanmar fan, only because they have earned it....given the choice you had to make, I wouldn't give up Yanmar power for ANYTHING.

I hate engines, but if you have to have one, a Yanmar is top self.

Good choice. Run with it...and you'll run with it for a lifetime.


I have a new 3ym30 in my 30 footer, it runs like a tugboat with a three blade prop.

Just cleaned the tank and changed all the filters.

Used the fuel pump lever to fill the filter bowls and started the engine with air still in the lines.

Started up straight away, gave a few coughs, and cleared its lines itself. Pure heaven.

I knew it would work because I ran out of fuel on a run a month ago, added my spare 10L diesel, and it did the same thing.

#87 Veeger

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Posted 18 September 2010 - 12:00 AM

Great Boat Bob, Sons and Lucky Owner!

I particularly love how there is elbow room everywhere! We all have our personal preferences and the CA crowd would tear me up if they saw what I wanted but the joy of creating a work of art is what keeps us dreaming and Bob working!

#88 Soņadora

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Posted 18 September 2010 - 12:20 AM


Starkers:
The primaries are aft just forward of the wheel. There is nothing there to reach around at all. The winches you are seeing as the primaries are powered halyard and mainsheet winches.
I'm a firm believed in fine tuning the deck layout when the deck plug is almost done. This way you can situate the gear as per the drawing and se where you can make improvements.
In this case, there are a lot of lines coming aft to a small cockpit with more pressure put on by the hard dodger PH. W/O the ph the layout would have been very different. I actually enlisted Hung to help me with this layout. I trust his jusdgement on these things. His help was very valuable. He has a lot of sea miles and he is a sailor's sailor.


Bob,

I was referring to the winches at the aft cockpit, but now that I look at the plans it may be that Sons has taken some liberty with their location and the size of the winch pedastels :blink:
I put quite a few miles on a friend's Trintella 49A where all the string leads back to the aft sailing cockpit, and it worked quite well. It had a big primary plus two secondaries (one powered) per side, with hydraulic in-mast reefing for the main. Lousy main sheet set-up, but that was fixable.

Starkindler



you guys forgot...

Posted Image

I could go through big, long explanations about how that 2D plan drawing you're looking at (and that's the first time I've seen that particular drawing, btw...Posted Image ) gets pretty complicated to project into a 3D view once you mate it up with 2D profile, especially considering the 'draft' (slope of the sides). I could illustrate how the plan view and the profile view match up exactly with the 3D model (neither Bob nor I care much for being inaccurate - Bob's experience demands it). I could prattle about the fact that all 4 of those aft winches are the same size (it's an optical illusion if they look otherwise). I could post the 10 or 12 iterations Bob and I went through to get that beautiful cockpit to work. I could blather on and on about the hours of rendering time involved in creating these images.

But I won't.

Because it sounds like someone needing a good dose of HTFU


:P

#89 Paps

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Posted 18 September 2010 - 12:44 AM

Sons youre rendering work has gone through the roof, take a bow. Now HTFU!!

Bob you are correct as usual, taking in all the lucky bastards parameters, it all works. The galley is a dream come true and its so refreshing on a boat this size to see practical usability win out over accommodation!! I love it.

I also love the aft cockpit/dodger arrangement, I would like something similar on any size boat I think, the quarter berth has always been my sleeping preference.

#90 Bob Perry

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Posted 18 September 2010 - 12:55 AM

Paps:
I raise a teaspoon of Vegemite to you.

A heaping tesoon.

#91 Paps

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Posted 18 September 2010 - 12:59 AM

Cheers with my glass of Milo!!

#92 Bob Perry

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Posted 18 September 2010 - 01:29 AM

Paps: Oh yeah, I remember Milo. Many a morning I started with Milo.

#93 palindrome

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Posted 18 September 2010 - 01:56 AM

Bob, one other question what is the lucky owners plans, local sailing or offshore?

Oh and lucky owner you are one lucky SOB. Posted Image


Pal

#94 familysailor

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Posted 18 September 2010 - 04:18 AM

Here is some more design work for your scrutiny.
To start with:
I wanted a cutter. Client has always wanted a ketch. Client wins that argument. Funny how that happens. But that discussion still goes on and on. We'll see.
I wanted no bowsprit. Lost that one too. But I do see it's advantages.
Looked at an ICW friendly rig but the boat kept screaming, "No! Please don't cut my balls off!" We spent a lot of time loking at this including VPP's.
Mast placement and rig proportions are not arbitrary. They have to work with the layout and in the case of the mizzen I had about 3" to play with.

And probably the most important driving force of the look of this design was the wife's preference for a graceful "feminine" looking boat.
One of our very first prelimiary drawings showed the boat with a plumb stem,a muscular and functional looking boat. My clinet referred to this version as the "De Niro" bow, i.e. "You talkin' to me?"
I got an email first thing the next morning "She could not have hated it more."
Oops.
So we began with a shape that had some overhangs and that's how the general look came about.



Bob---

Can you show us "De Niro"? Sounds interesting............

#95 savoir

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Posted 18 September 2010 - 10:55 AM

You talkin' to me ?


Attached File  18453815.jpg   47.39K   0 downloads

#96 Gatekeeper

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Posted 18 September 2010 - 01:40 PM

Now...back to sailing for a moment...I've had very limited experience on a ketch so...how will she sail??

What will be her strengths? What will be her weaknesses?? Can she be a competitive racer (to Bermuda say), or a dedicated (performance) cruiser?? When the choice was a ketch over a cutter what was gained? What was lost??

I'm in love with this boat, and only one lottery ticket away from having Bob start drawing mine. I just got to know what I want, or Bob will get cranky.

#97 Bob Perry

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Posted 18 September 2010 - 02:17 PM

Gate:
I suppose I could post the VPP's. But they are complex (not just polars) and I'd find myself spending a week explaining them. Trust me the boat will sail just fine. Do you think that after all these years I'd draw the client a pig?

Family:
Re: the De Niro version. I'll have to think about that. I think I saved it. Keep in mind that in the very early stages of a new design the boat goes through what I call an "awkward adolescence" where wild ideas are tried out while I look for the ideal combination of aesthtic ad practical features. In short I "play" with the design. I'm not sure I want to show those efforts to everyone. They were dropped. They were not succesful. They are probablt beter left in the bottom of the box. But I'll think about it.

Jose:
Cost and space prevented me from exploring a hybrid system.

et al:
As Paps mentioned Sons rendering work has really developed into something. He has come a long way from the guy who first started posting his eforts here almost 3 years ago. CA and the WLYDOP has held Sons to a high stabdard and he has responded in spendid style. I hasd a good friend, an architect, in my office yesterday, Garrett Larsen. He took a look at Sons work and asked "Does he do houses?" I told Garrett that if Sons can do a yacht a house would be a piece of cake.

Sons:

See the winch pod? The bulge? We have a slight problem there as the rolled of house top does not continue in the area of the bulge. The way you have it now the eyebrow trim piece is standing proud of the house top surface at the bulge. That does not look right to my eye. Could you look at this and see if there is a graceful way to resolve that transition. We may need to continue the radius all around the bulge. Thanks.

#98 Soņadora

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Posted 18 September 2010 - 02:24 PM

Gate

Bob had a pretty good article in GOB about rigs.

From that article, you can gather that ketches were all the rage with CCA rules. At our marina, there's a picture hanging in the men's room of a yacht named 'Kialoa'. She was a ketch. In the picture, she must be flying every piece of sail in her inventory - 2 of everything plus a blooper (I think that's what it's called).

One of the biggest factors is cost. 2x of all your spars, winches, blocks, sails, etc. But for Bob's client's reasoning, a ketch makes sense. Smaller individual sails vs. gigantor sails for a Bermuda rig on this sized boat. Plus you get a free steadying sail at anchor. Makes it much easier for two people to handle.

#99 Soņadora

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Posted 18 September 2010 - 02:35 PM

some pics of Kialoa

Posted Image

Posted Image

#100 Gatekeeper

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Posted 18 September 2010 - 02:52 PM

Gate:
I suppose I could post the VPP's. But they are complex (not just polars) and I'd find myself spending a week explaining them. Trust me the boat will sail just fine. Do you think that after all these years I'd draw the client a pig?



I understand that...and I've sailed a few pigs (ugggg)...but what point of sail wil shel be at her best??








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