263 replies to this topic

[ElBoracho]

Has anyone else noticed this?

Farrier F-85SR Design Concept

Maybe it's just the bows that look like an A-class, or maybe I'm just wrong in the head, but the lines of this thing make me a little fizzy. I was pretty much decided on building an F-82 anyway, I'd be all over a more modern version of it.

[Pog]

That looks awesome, time to start playing the lottery.

[Evil Gnome]

Contact Ian you might be pleasantly surprised about what is going on with this boat.
Evil

[Dick Ishuge]

Contact Ian you might be pleasantly surprised about what is going on with this boat.
Evil

Please dont read this as critique (Ian, your boats are beautiful :-)), but looking for someone to enlighten clueless me.

Curious about this smaller and lighter hull using the F32 lifting foils. Ian makes the point that these were designed by Tom Speer for the 32. Wouldnt they provide beaucoup lift? and might that translate to the bows lifting out like the N20 cats we recently saw in video. That cant be fast,(looks very wierd), and with a tri like this it would be harder to put weight forward such as a beach cat can.

Also curious, on this drawing it looks like the daggerbord is removable with the mast in place, unlike the F82, also the F32SR looks the same. I always wondered why the newer Farriers like the 32R/RX couldnt do this, especially since at least a few farrier 32/31 owners complain they have to rake the rudder forward to decrease the "feel" of the weather helm. The F32 is drawn with a fair bit of forward rudder rake too. And no float ruddrs planned on the F32SR?

Since the curved foils will be infront of the CoLR of the more aft pitched daggerbord would there be additional weather helm, and would the dagger need to be moved back in the boat to compensate? Im guessing its intended for a big screacher at any "fat" point of sail, when the foils go down and dagger can come up, but how will it affect sailing close hauled? Mu overlay of the F32 and F32SR drawings show the SR mast in moved aft a smidge, is that so?


I think there are lots of innovations in Ians boats, I wish I knew more about and I think that if Ian talked more about them it would open more eyes to these designs. For example the F32 and presumably the F85 is sposed to be able to alter angle of attack of the curved foils. How? I was told the foils are fabricated by infusion, in one piece, and in a closed mold, and they dont seem that expensive compared to the hype about curved foils.

It woudll be great to learn more about these areas above, at least I think so.

RIS




Also looks like Ian has finally "bowed" to the plumb stem fashion. About time? :-)

[Ian Farrier]

Has anyone else noticed this?

Farrier F-85SR Design Concept

Maybe it's just the bows that look like an A-class, or maybe I'm just wrong in the head, but the lines of this thing make me a little fizzy. I was pretty much decided on building an F-82 anyway, I'd be all over a more modern version of it.

It is actually happening, with three already building. However, with so many other things to do, it is not yet an 'officially' released design, so lets keep this between ourselves.....right?

Basically, there are no dedicated plans yet, but one can start now with the purchase of a set of F-82 plans, which are then used as a building guide, but with F-85SR hull lines which are available as dxf files which can be purchased via:

http://www.f-boatmart.com/product.php?productid=16154&cat=255&page=1

A few special additional guide sheets then detail various other changes or improvements, such as deeper daggerboard, high aspect rudder or rudders, and fitting lifting foils. Float lines have just been completed, and main hull lines will be done after the first builder starts on his second float. Rig and sail plan will then follow, with the standard rig targeted at the NZ 8.5 rule. However there will be an optional taller 'super race' rig for those who prefer a very high power to weight ratio. But this would not be a boat for the inexperienced.

Ian Farrier

Farrier Marine
Designs that work...

[ElBoracho]

Has anyone else noticed this?

Farrier F-85SR Design Concept

Maybe it's just the bows that look like an A-class, or maybe I'm just wrong in the head, but the lines of this thing make me a little fizzy. I was pretty much decided on building an F-82 anyway, I'd be all over a more modern version of it.

It is actually happening, with three already building. However, with so many other things to do, it is not yet an 'officially' released design, so lets keep this between ourselves.....right?

Basically, there are no dedicated plans yet, but one can start now with the purchase of a set of F-82 plans, which are then used as a building guide, but with F-85SR hull lines which are available as dxf files which can be purchased via:

http://www.f-boatmar...&cat=255&page=1

A few special additional guide sheets then detail various other changes or improvements, such as deeper daggerboard, high aspect rudder or rudders, and fitting lifting foils. Float lines have just been completed, and main hull lines will be done after the first builder starts on his second float. Rig and sail plan will then follow, with the standard rig targeted at the NZ 8.5 rule. However there will be an optional taller 'super race' rig for those who prefer a very high power to weight ratio. But this would not be a boat for the inexperienced.

Ian Farrier

Farrier Marine
Designs that work...

Is there any chance you'd be updating the main hull to have a cabin with the sharper lines of the F-22/F-32? I see that the design concept has the cut down racing cabin, but what if someone wanted to build a more dual-purpose boat with a cruising cabin on it? Is updating the cabin shape doable or does that represent a pretty massive amount of effort? I ask because I think the F-82 lines are looking a bit dated (don't take the the wrong way, the design *is* almost 20 years old). As new and pretty as the floats and hull are on an F-85, I think the original F-82 cruising cabin might look a little "off" if somebody stuck one on top of there. Just one man's opinion.

Is the 37' rig in the specs the "super race" rig?

[B30]

So close! Now just take away the central rudder and add one to each float ala Seacart and make sure the floats have enough volume to lift the main hull and we are there!

A Seacart 26 alternative for those who live lives to complex for an "all out" racer. A kick ass boat for the real world.

[Ian Farrier]

Curious about this smaller and lighter hull using the F32 lifting foils. Ian makes the point that these were designed by Tom Speer for the 32. Wouldnt they provide beaucoup lift? and might that translate to the bows lifting out like the N20 cats we recently saw in video. That cant be fast,(looks very wierd), and with a tri like this it would be harder to put weight forward such as a beach cat can.

Tom advised on the best foil section to use, and there should certainly be plenty of lift. However, angle of attack can be changed, so lift can be varied as required, plus it is very important to have the foils placed correctly fore and aft. I had them a little too far forward in the original F-27 for instance. See photo below:

 F-27-foils-1.jpg   167.08K   291 downloads

The other control, as required, is to just reduce length of foil in the water, and being circular, windage does not increase as the foil will retract behind the beam, and not up into the air.

Also curious, on this drawing it looks like the daggerbord is removable with the mast in place, unlike the F82, also the F32SR looks the same. I always wondered why the newer Farriers like the 32R/RX couldnt do this, especially since at least a few farrier 32/31 owners complain they have to rake the rudder forward to decrease the "feel" of the weather helm. The F32 is drawn with a fair bit of forward rudder rake too. And no float ruddrs planned on the F32SR?

The main reason the daggerboard case is raked more forward on racers is to allow longer boards, that remain structurally sound, as they are less restricted in length or format by the mast step. There are however some downsides, one of which can be more intrusion into the forward cabin, but such an intrusion is more acceptable in racers. I'm also not convinced that the greater rake then necessary is any faster, but the longer board definitely is.

The board is in exactly the right place with the F-31/F-32, and it was always intended that the rudder has to be raked forward to get the right amount of feel (which is the case with all my designs). The only problem has been with some F-31s coming from the factory with the pivot pin hole out of position, and consequently did not have the correct amount of forward rake.

Float rudders are optional on both F-85SR and F-32SR, which can have squared off float sterns for this purpose (standard on F-85SR). You can in fact see a photo of the first F-32SR rudder float mount in another posting I did today under Seacart 26. But float rudders are a lot of extra cost and complication, and will only be an advantage for around 10% of the time during racing. This makes it hard to justify the extra expense and weight in my opinion, but they are fashionable, and can be fitted if wished...... Hard to steer when folded however.

Since the curved foils will be infront of the CoLR of the more aft pitched daggerbord would there be additional weather helm, and would the dagger need to be moved back in the boat to compensate? Im guessing its intended for a big screacher at any "fat" point of sail, when the foils go down and dagger can come up, but how will it affect sailing close hauled? Mu overlay of the F32 and F32SR drawings show the SR mast in moved aft a smidge, is that so?

The curved foils are mainly for lift, and have much less influence on helm than the daggerboard. They will however allow more adjustment options, and their location further forward is more likely to increase weather helm than lee helm, and this can be helpful when carrying big headsails

I think there are lots of innovations in Ians boats, I wish I knew more about and I think that if Ian talked more about them it would open more eyes to these designs. For example the F32 and presumably the F85 is sposed to be able to alter angle of attack of the curved foils. How? I was told the foils are fabricated by infusion, in one piece, and in a closed mold, and they dont seem that expensive compared to the hype about curved foils.

When one factors in the cost of the molds (don't ask), the foils are not that expensive, but I am counting on selling quite a few sets to amortize the mold cost. Angle of attack will be adjustable, but I'm not saying how yet.

Also looks like Ian has finally "bowed" to the plumb stem fashion. About time? :-)

Actually, I was so close to putting plumb bows on the original F-27, you would not believe. Plumb bows were becoming quite common on Down Under racing sailboats in the early 1980s, but were rare or unknown in the US. So I had to make a marketing decision not to use them, as the F-27 was going to be different enough for the US market, and having plumb bows as well might have just made it look too strange, and killed any hope of commercial success. So bow was set at 5°.

The other problem with plumb bows is that they throw up more spray, unless very fine/sharp, and fine bows are particularly hard to achieve in the usual 'top and bottom' production molds. One just cannot get in there to laminate. It can be done now, and easily, with the techniques developed for the F-22, but it was a problem back then. Nothing worse than a customer wandering into the show room floor and putting his finger through a float bow side, where the laminator could not reach. The necessary fine bows are also much easier to damage, but the method being used for the production F-22 will lessen this risk. Toughest bows I have ever made in fact.

Ian Farrier

Farrier Marine (NZ) Ltd
Farrier Marine, Inc

[Ian Farrier]

Is there any chance you'd be updating the main hull to have a cabin with the sharper lines of the F-22/F-32? I see that the design concept has the cut down racing cabin, but what if someone wanted to build a more dual-purpose boat with a cruising cabin on it? Is updating the cabin shape doable or does that represent a pretty massive amount of effort? I ask because I think the F-82 lines are looking a bit dated (don't take the the wrong way, the design *is* almost 20 years old). As new and pretty as the floats and hull are on an F-85, I think the original F-82 cruising cabin might look a little "off" if somebody stuck one on top of there. Just one man's opinion.

Is the 37' rig in the specs the "super race" rig?

The F-85SR will have a lower profile cabin as standard, but it will be possible to still use the roomier F-82 cabin, or just lift up the F-85SR cabin. Taller cabins will not however look as good as a low profile cabin.

The 37' rig is the NZ 8.5 class legal rig. The taller "super race" rig will probably be from 41 - 42' high (12.5 - 12.8m) high.

Ian Farrier
Farrier Marine
Designs that work...

[ElBoracho]

Wow. Just wow. A 41' or 42' rig on a boat that weighs 1600lbs? I don't know if the term "powered up" even covers it.

[B30]

Float rudders are optional on both F-85SR and F-32SR, which can have squared off float sterns for this purpose (standard on F-85SR). You can in fact see a photo of the first F-32SR rudder float mount in another posting I did today under Seacart 26. But float rudders are a lot of extra cost and complication, and will only be an advantage for around 10% of the time during racing. This makes it hard to justify the extra expense and weight in my opinion, but they are fashionable, and can be fitted if wished...... Hard to steer when folded however.


Ian, never thought about the steering when folded part. On the F-Boats I have sailed on we never had the need, but I can see where others would. Also, isn't the 10% of the time float hung rudders are an advantage a very important 10% of the time! In the limited experiance I have had compared to yours, I have had the central rudder ventalate casuing a round up on more than one occation while pushing an F-boat hard. To compare I have also pushed the lightspeed 32, and Stilletto 27 GT catamarans very hard and have never lost control. Am I right in assuming that the rudder being on the the leward cat hull completely in the water, as the rudder on a leward float would, be the differance?

Also, how is a long raked dagger board better than a shorter verticle one of the same depth? Not being a wise ass, I am really curious. Thanks

[eric e]

Also, how is a long raked dagger board better than a shorter verticle one of the same depth? Not being a wise ass, I am really curious. Thanks

an angled dagger of the same length would have more area...

but i think the raking is to allow longer/deeper daggers

[vmg]

I think there are lots of innovations in Ians boats, I wish I knew more about and I think that if Ian talked more about them it would open more eyes to these designs.

What!!!

How many other designers [That have actually had something built] have answered you posts lately?

[Dick Ishuge]

I think there are lots of innovations in Ians boats, I wish I knew more about and I think that if Ian talked more about them it would open more eyes to these designs.

What!!!

How many other designers [That have actually had something built] have answered you posts lately?

Yes, of course that is true, Steve Clark and Tom Speer are other exampple of the same ilk. There are others I would not dare to ask for want of wasting my time typing. On the other hand there are some designers on this forum who in my opinion might say less to say more. :-)

No to be to sycophantic but I thank Ian for his generous advice and will say that its one of the main reasons he gets the kudos he does, as well as the sucess of his designs of course. Im sure there are many more anarchists waiting to soak up more info on the points he touched on.

[Dick Ishuge]

Im sure there are many more anarchists waiting to soak up more info on the points he touched on.

Um.. I noticed he didnt mention about what I think must be a neat way to make those curved foils, Is that a trade secret, a breakthrough?

[Ian Farrier]

Ian, never thought about the steering when folded part. On the F-Boats I have sailed on we never had the need, but I can see where others would. Also, isn't the 10% of the time float hung rudders are an advantage a very important 10% of the time! In the limited experiance I have had compared to yours, I have had the central rudder ventalate casuing a round up on more than one occation while pushing an F-boat hard. To compare I have also pushed the lightspeed 32, and Stilletto 27 GT catamarans very hard and have never lost control. Am I right in assuming that the rudder being on the the leward cat hull completely in the water, as the rudder on a leward float would, be the differance?

A central rudder ventilating when pushing hard is definitely a problem, and always will be, but one has to be sure that the cure is not worse than the problem. I've also experienced rudder ventilation many times while pushing hard off the wind, but while it can be scary, I have never had a boat round up or spin out from it. Usually it will keep tracking reasonably straight, or start to head up or down, but always gradually, and steering control is usually restored fairly quickly. But having no control can certainly be a concern.

The key is to always try to keep the boat/sails well balanced so boat will still track well without a rudder, and to keep the stern sections in the water for as much as possible. This is one reason why I do not like very wide aft sections on floats, as they will lift the stern more, particularly in quartering waves, which means a greater chance of losing control.

Float rudders are definitely the ultimate answer, but they do add more expense, more weight, more drag, and more complexity, and will be there for the 90% of time when they are not required. Weight can be reduced by making them smaller, but then one can end up with not enough rudder in other circumstances, to where control will be lost and the boat will end up in irons. However, float rudders are a valid solution, and hence they are optional on the F-85SR and F-32SR, but they would not be my personal choice.

The other alternative is to use a much longer daggerboard style rudder blade, with a more effective section, and the F-85SR will have such a rudder as standard. Advantages include simplicity, less weight, lower cost, and while it can be deep when needed, it can also be lifted up when not, so wetted area is less for the 90% of the time where a deep rudder is not necessary.

Next step is to add water ballast to stern, so as to keep main hull stern down when required, and a stern ballast tank is standard on the F-85SR and F-32SR, with float sterns tanks optional. This weight again can be got rid of for the 90% of the time when it is not required.

The other tactic is to never fly the main hull much at all, or have it just skimming above the water, so that rudder is always kept in the water. This is the fastest point of sailing anyway, as any higher and one is only adding windage and reducing power, while just touching the water or planing on the top is not much slower, if at all. In theory it should be slower, but in practice I doubt if there is much difference at all.

We have the same situation with the daggerboard down versus daggerboard up debate when off the wind - daggerboard up should be faster - has to be! But we have never found any difference when comparing identical boats, on long downwind legs, with board up on one, board down on the other. I have instead lost far more time by forgetting to put board back down at leeward marks, so now the board stays down all the time, period. However, I still find myself lifting it on very long downwind legs in important races, just in case, as it just has to be better - right? But I have never seen an instance where it was. So I feel the same about flying center hulls, looks good, but likely no faster, slower if too high, and it increases capsize risk. Just my opinion.

Also, how is a long raked dagger board better than a shorter verticle one of the same depth? Not being a wise ass, I am really curious. Thanks

A long board will always be better, and the problem with a vertical board on a tri is that it will have to be behind the mast, and get in the way of the boom when raised, plus make it very difficult to lower mast on a trailerable tri. I'm happy to go either way, as it is a 'six of one, half dozen of the other' situation, and I have vertical boards in my F-41 cat design, mainly because it is better for the interior, a little simpler, and there is no boom above to foul.

Ian Farrier
Farrier Marine
Designs that work...

[Ian Farrier]

Wow. Just wow. A 41' or 42' rig on a boat that weighs 1600lbs? I don't know if the term "powered up" even covers it.

Definitely for experienced sailors only, and not for cruisers.

But, with F-85SR being a wide tri, capsize wind force with main and jib will be around 16 to 20 knots,
(depending on loaded weight) so capsize risk will still be low compared to many extreme racing cats.
Plus one also has room and easy trailerability

Ian Farrier
Farrier Marine
Designs that work....

[Evil Gnome]

I have signed up to build one for many reasons,
I like stuffing around building boats,
I really liked sailing my F82r,
I want to sail with my kids where they can have a chance to participate,
to have the option of cruising around by myself.
Quick rigging to go to more regattas
Downstairs shelter and overnight resting
New design to make you think about setting up and maximising speed.
Three racing crew for boat
Easier sailing on my ageing body.
This will be a two year project so in the mean time I will campaign Two Tribes as hard as ever.
I have been very lucky to sail two different style of multi's with two very different features, Two Tribes is a brutal, fast, exciting boat which is one of the fastest in the country, and my F82r was just a great boat to sail and live with so with a boat inbetween the two I am very excitied to get going and hit the water.
Thanks to Ian for fitting in the design work for the 85sr at what must be a busy time.
Evil

[B30]

Ian, never thought about the steering when folded part. On the F-Boats I have sailed on we never had the need, but I can see where others would. Also, isn't the 10% of the time float hung rudders are an advantage a very important 10% of the time! In the limited experiance I have had compared to yours, I have had the central rudder ventalate casuing a round up on more than one occation while pushing an F-boat hard. To compare I have also pushed the lightspeed 32, and Stilletto 27 GT catamarans very hard and have never lost control. Am I right in assuming that the rudder being on the the leward cat hull completely in the water, as the rudder on a leward float would, be the differance?

A central rudder ventilating when pushing hard is definitely a problem, and always will be, but one has to be sure that the cure is not worse than the problem. I've also experienced rudder ventilation many times while pushing hard off the wind, but while it can be scary, I have never had a boat round up or spin out from it. Usually it will keep tracking reasonably straight, or start to head up or down, but always gradually, and steering control is usually restored fairly quickly. But having no control can certainly be a concern.

The key is to always try to keep the boat/sails well balanced so boat will still track well without a rudder, and to keep the stern sections in the water for as much as possible. This is one reason why I do not like very wide aft sections on floats, as they will lift the stern more, particularly in quartering waves, which means a greater chance of losing control.

Float rudders are definitely the ultimate answer, but they do add more expense, more weight, more drag, and more complexity, and will be there for the 90% of time when they are not required. Weight can be reduced by making them smaller, but then one can end up with not enough rudder in other circumstances, to where control will be lost and the boat will end up in irons. However, float rudders are a valid solution, and hence they are optional on the F-85SR and F-32SR, but they would not be my personal choice.

The other alternative is to use a much longer daggerboard style rudder blade, with a more effective section, and the F-85SR will have such a rudder as standard. Advantages include simplicity, less weight, lower cost, and while it can be deep when needed, it can also be lifted up when not, so wetted area is less for the 90% of the time where a deep rudder is not necessary.

Next step is to add water ballast to stern, so as to keep main hull stern down when required, and a stern ballast tank is standard on the F-85SR and F-32SR, with float sterns tanks optional. This weight again can be got rid of for the 90% of the time when it is not required.

The other tactic is to never fly the main hull much at all, or have it just skimming above the water, so that rudder is always kept in the water. This is the fastest point of sailing anyway, as any higher and one is only adding windage and reducing power, while just touching the water or planing on the top is not much slower, if at all. In theory it should be slower, but in practice I doubt if there is much difference at all.

We have the same situation with the daggerboard down versus daggerboard up debate when off the wind - daggerboard up should be faster - has to be! But we have never found any difference when comparing identical boats, on long downwind legs, with board up on one, board down on the other. I have instead lost far more time by forgetting to put board back down at leeward marks, so now the board stays down all the time, period. However, I still find myself lifting it on very long downwind legs in important races, just in case, as it just has to be better - right? But I have never seen an instance where it was. So I feel the same about flying center hulls, looks good, but likely no faster, slower if too high, and it increases capsize risk. Just my opinion.

Also, how is a long raked dagger board better than a shorter verticle one of the same depth? Not being a wise ass, I am really curious. Thanks

A long board will always be better, and the problem with a vertical board on a tri is that it will have to be behind the mast, and get in the way of the boom when raised, plus make it very difficult to lower mast on a trailerable tri. I'm happy to go either way, as it is a 'six of one, half dozen of the other' situation, and I have vertical boards in my F-41 cat design, mainly because it is better for the interior, a little simpler, and there is no boom above to foul.

Ian Farrier
Farrier Marine
Designs that work...

Thank you very much for taking the time to answer my questions so completely. It is a rare opportunity to get to talk so candidly with the designer of boats you admire and sail on.

[jamez]

Farrier F-85SR Design Concept

[/quote]

It is actually happening, with three already building. However, with so many other things to do, it is not yet an 'officially' released design, so lets keep this between ourselves.....right?

[/quote]


Can one enquire as to where the 3 already under construction are generally located?

[Evil Gnome]

The best part about the rudder system is if you don't like the single main hull system then because you built it you can always go to the float mounted rudders, I am going to start with the centre hull rudder and see how it goes, it is great to have choice with what you sail and some of the systems, i can't wait to see the curved foils and how they operate, the size mast that Ian has mentioned betwen 40 foot and 42 f oot will mean this will be a pocket rocket.
In the construction stage I am not going full carbon even though I would like to as this results in a very light boat which under OMR kills you so even though I never like hobbling boats if you want a handicap winner under OMR then this is what I am going to do, also under consideration is a fixed non rotating mast, against all multihull principles but this rates well as well, might even put a crapper and kitchen on board to pick up the weight! I might be going over board here but that is me.
Even worked out the name, 32 years ago I bought my first Hobie 14 and my nickname was Evil Gnome and this is what I named it, with a red gelcoat finger I painted the name on the side, I think that they were refering to a short person syndrome that I had so after all this time the circle is complete, Evil Gnome will live again!
Sorry it is late and I am pissed with some classic Bundy rum, rave on.
Evil

[the loose cannon]

A long board will always be better, and the problem with a vertical board on a tri is that it will have to be behind the mast, and get in the way of the boom when raised, plus make it very difficult to lower mast on a trailerable tri.

Ian Farrier
Farrier Marine
Designs that work...

Ian,

If I recall correctly, on a couple of your designs there is a basically flat section on the bottom of the hull around the area of the mast to about a meter back from there. Is it possible to offset the daggerboard to one side of the centerline, so that the mast rotator and base can still function, but allow a longer board at a more perpendicular angle? Inside, it might change up the layout a little, but not much, and the compressive forces of the beam and mast could still be reconciled with a little bit of bulkhead perpendicular to the now shifted trunk.

I was wondering about that option for the 6-10 meter boats where headspace limits board length. For the bigger designs like the 36 that I did that delivery article on, there seemed to be more than enough height in the main cabin for long, effective board. (problem is I can't afford those ones )

Best always and thanks for some of the best sailing moments of my life.

Lincoln Rowley AKA the loose cannon

[Scarecrow]

It's interesting to note that sports boat sailors seem happy to accept a dagger boat system that can only be raised after pushing boom off centre line. Obviously this is because they leave the keels down all day, but a system that allowed partial lifting when sailing wouldn't be hard to achieve on a vertical board. Having said that the angled board allows the clr toove fed faster as it is lifted which is ideal for down wind use. Let's be honest Ian has more experiance in his little finger than the rest of us combined. So I'd take a boat designed by him to be a pretty good ballance of the necessary compromises.

[Speng]

Yeah regarding trimaran DB's the typical approach is rake the board so it exits just foward of the mast base. In some cases if you can't rake it enough for whatever reason you can cut off the TE of the DB that never gets in the water but then you've restricted either the retractability of the board or the draft. The only designer I can recall with a vertical DB is Kurt Hughes on a Formula 40 and it was behind the mast. I dunno if there are potential flutter issues with a vertical board. AFAIK board position is relatively unimportant on cats but on tris it seems more important.

[NYX]

I like stuffing around building boats,
I want to sail with my kids where they can have a chance to participate,
to have the option of cruising around by myself.
Quick rigging to go to more regattas
Downstairs shelter and overnight resting
New design to make you think about setting up and maximising speed.
Three racing crew for boat
Easier sailing on my ageing body.
Thanks to Ian for fitting in the design work for the 85sr at what must be a busy time.
Evil

A lot of what the Evil one says also rings true for me.

In addition to this I ran into a fellow with an F-82R some months back.
I started chewing his ear while he and his partner were pulling the boat out
of the water to take it home after a days sail. Even with me hassling him he had that thing packed
up and ready to drive away in not much more than 20 mins.

Previously I was thinking about building a 28ft cat with all the hassles of a mooring and
moving it around to attend regattas. While it still would have been a lot of fun I
just don't think it would get the same level of use from it as I would get from the F-85SR because
of the F-85SRs convenience and versatility.

Not only have I signed up to build I have already rxd the dxf files to build the floats.

I really like what Ian has done with the shape of the floats.

This boat is going to look fast even sitting in the car park.

When the F-85SR is built I hope to chase the regatta circuit racing with my mates but I also
want to go cruising with my family so to help keep the family involved I will build the larger cabin.

In addition to this I believe in the concept of 8.5metre rule and so I will rig
the boat to meet that rule. I believe in the concept enough to build to it.
If enough people around the world look towards the future and start building to the rule
it will eventually become a global reality and that would be great for the sport.

The first boat that I ever built was called NYX. I think I'll look for a new name for this
super fast cruising race machine.

NYX

[vmg]

"When the F-85SR is built I hope to chase the regatta circuit racing with my mates but I also
want to go cruising with my family so to help keep the family involved I will build the larger cabin."

Good thinking, even if you don't want to cruise the boat, you have got to consider resale value.

[Evil Gnome]

If you build to the NZ 850 rule then the low cabin would be better, more mast length and sail area for the air draught, if to OMR then the cruising cabin would be better to gain mast height with no penalty.
Evil

[Ian Farrier]

Farrier F-85SR Design Concept


It is actually happening, with three already building. However, with so many other things to do, it is not yet an 'officially' released design, so lets keep this between ourselves.....right?


Can one enquire as to where the 3 already under construction are generally located?

Two in Australia, one in Europe, and it looks like another in the USA.

Ian Farrier
Farrier Marine
Designs that work...

[Scarecrow]

Sweat you've designed a boat for the NZ market and have had more interest from the rest of the world. Don't you love Life.

[Ian Farrier]

Sweat you've designed a boat for the NZ market and have had more interest from the rest of the world. Don't you love Life.

That's the way it goes sometimes, and initially I was even reluctant to do the plans, as there are only a small number of dedicated racers. But there's some NZ interest too, and I'm sure there will be some NZ builders as well. The current track record of the F-82R PREDICT WIND in Auckland is very good in the 8.5s, and the F-85SR will be considerably faster. But many will probably wait until the plans are finished first.

Ian Farrier

[bush sailer]

I assume the floats would be a diferent design for use with foils. From experience setting up the foils on my boat there needs to be considerable volume at the back of the float (preferably a flat planning surface) to work with the foil. I would not think Ians standard float design would work well with a foil as it would sink down at the stern. This is one of the design features which make the F boats safe.(as boat speed increases downwind the rear rocker of the main hull sucks the stern down combining with reduced bouancy in the rear of the float to reduce the chance of nosediving)

[Ian Farrier]

Ian,

If I recall correctly, on a couple of your designs there is a basically flat section on the bottom of the hull around the area of the mast to about a meter back from there. Is it possible to offset the daggerboard to one side of the centerline, so that the mast rotator and base can still function, but allow a longer board at a more perpendicular angle? Inside, it might change up the layout a little, but not much, and the compressive forces of the beam and mast could still be reconciled with a little bit of bulkhead perpendicular to the now shifted trunk.

I was wondering about that option for the 6-10 meter boats where headspace limits board length. For the bigger designs like the 36 that I did that delivery article on, there seemed to be more than enough height in the main cabin for long, effective board. (problem is I can't afford those ones )

Best always and thanks for some of the best sailing moments of my life.

Lincoln Rowley AKA the loose cannon

Certainly possible to have an offset board, and I already do this with the kick back centerboard versions.

 F-82interior-1.jpg   27.54K   122 downloads

Above photo shows the offset centerboard interior on an F-82 - works very well - many advantages in fact for smaller designs. Kick-back enterboard cases are just more time consuming to make, not quite as efficient, and can be more troublesome.

 F-82PolandInterior2.jpg   84.23K   111 downloads

Above photo shows another F-82 with daggerboard - different, and has it advantages too. The available room is the same, but it doesn't look as roomy.

I don't see any significant advantage with offset daggerboards, or having them at a more vertical angle. Overall, the central daggerboard seems to work best, for a number of reasons, including it also supports mast, takes trailer loads, and divides cabin evenly - which just seems to work better.

 interior1.jpg   28.01K   69 downloads

Above photo shows the central daggerboard on an F-33. The boat is big enough for a roomy enclosed head area to port, with the central daggerboard case forming one wall, resulting in a nice integrated structure. An offset daggerboard would not do this.

Ian Farrier
Farrier Marine
Designs that work....

[Ian Farrier]

I assume the floats would be a diferent design for use with foils. From experience setting up the foils on my boat there needs to be considerable volume at the back of the float (preferably a flat planning surface) to work with the foil. I would not think Ians standard float design would work well with a foil as it would sink down at the stern. This is one of the design features which make the F boats safe.(as boat speed increases downwind the rear rocker of the main hull sucks the stern down combining with reduced bouancy in the rear of the float to reduce the chance of nosediving)

It is just a matter of having the foils in the right place - the F-27 prototype had relatively fine float sterns, but I never found them to be a problem with the foils.

 F-27Folded-sailingLR.jpg   81.37K   36 downloads

My latest floats have more buoyancy aft, but not too much, as this can create other safety concerns. The main thing we found with the F-27 was that the foil angle of attack had to be adjustable.

The other issue is determining exactly where the foil should be, as it needs to be in front of the float center of buoyancy, but not by too much. Then of course the float center of buoyancy can also move as heel increases which complicates things even more. An adjustable fore and aft position would be ideal, but this would be very difficult to achieve.

Ian Farrier
Farrier Marine,
Designs that work..

[NYX]

My F85SR float frames will be cut this week.
Next week I'll be at the Multihull Nats on Lake Macquarie and the week after I can finally get stuck into building the floats.

[Samin]

My F85SR float frames will be cut this week.
Next week I'll be at the Multihull Nats on Lake Macquarie and the week after I can finally get stuck into building the floats.

Great to hear the first 8.5 being built in Oz.

Look forward to seeing the OMR results.
Nice to see not everyone over there is obsessed with huge masts on all out racers. Hopefully we can get some inter-dominion line honours racing in the 8.5 class going at some stage in a few years.
Roughly when do you hope to be in the water?

Were hoping to launch our new 8.5 Tri (not F-boat) early next year

If the F85 had come out 18 months ago I would have built it! however as it is im very happy with how ours is turning out

[NYX]

Hopefully we can get some inter-dominion line honours racing in the 8.5 class going at some stage in a few years.
Roughly when do you hope to be in the water?

Inter-dominion is an interesting idea. It has proven very successful in the Paper Tigers.

I have no time frame. Time frames tend to take the fun out of the building.
Having said that still, under two years would be nice.

[foiledagain]

I am very interested in the F-85SR... hopefully someday I'll have the time and money to build one of these.

I had a question about the necessity of the daggerboard in the main hull... when curved lifting foils are installed in the amas, could one do away with the daggerboard? I ask this because BMW/Oracle ended up removing their main daggerboard and rudder effectively. I assume they were able to do this because of their ability to cant their lifting foils to adjust direction of lift. The loads on those foils were incredible--- I seem to remember 120 tons-- and I imagine the mechanism to cant them must be pretty nutty. But...canting the curved lifting foils of a F-85SR would seem to be a task that some nicely machined UHMW and a block and tackle could accomplish. It is added complexity--- but it may be lighter and more effective than having a large daggerboard in the main hull. It would also free up some space in the cabin. Any ideas why this wouldn't work?

Here is a simple mechanism for controlling the angle of attack of some curved lifting foils...the white bits are UHMW bearings that take the loads at the top and bottom of a tapered trunk. The black is carbon c-plate that captures the top bearing and allows it to slide for and aft.

 hydrofoil203.jpg   95.34K   140 downloads

[eric e]

very nice

what are they for?

[nige]

very nice

what are they for?

They are for efficient power boats (a cat and a try)... .. to be installed in a couple of weeks hopefully...

Attached Files

•  tri_nige_ollie_shannon.png   599.99K   122 downloads

[foiledagain]

I am still wondering if there is a really good reason to have the main daggerboard in a boat with lifting foils in the amas....

I know Cheekee Monkey kept the main foil when they put in their lifting foils...

does anyone have experience they would be willing to share sailing a trimaran fitted with lifting foils--- with the main hull daggerboard up or down?

Can you only lose the main daggerboard by adequately controlling the direction of lift on the curved lifting foils?

[Ian Farrier]

I am still wondering if there is a really good reason to have the main daggerboard in a boat with lifting foils in the amas....

Where do I start - well firstly, what works on an extreme racing trimaran like BMW Oracle, which did not need to do much tacking, and sailed in very controlled conditions, may not work so well in the real world.

Foils are options only on my designs, as they are very expensive, and their main purpose is to provide lift to the leeward float. There is also windward lift but it is relatively small compared to one deep central daggerboard. Given the choice between float foils only, or central daggerboard only, I would go with the central daggerboard every time, as I believe this will give the best overall performance and handling, be considerably less costly, and much more practical. Float lifting foils can then supplement and improve this.

 F-32SRfoilandCase600.jpg   108.74K   53 downloads

Photo shows F-32SR foil and case - the F-85SR foil will be a little shorter.

Ian Farrier
Farrier Marine,
Designs that work

[kiwi_bob]

Here is a bit of a debate on the subject http://www.boatdesig...ards-25133.html

I'm fairly interested in peoples thoughts as I'm currently building a Tri with straight inward leaning arma boards and without a center board, that is the plan currently anyway...

I have contacted the Frantic Drift guys (mentioned in this thread) and asked them if they liked the config and for a hull flying Tri then they believe it is best option. They are currently doing a major rejig of the boat (new armas etc) and are sticking with no foils on the center hull ala Oracle.

Essentially it's the same foil setup as a Cat setup - and leaves the center hull free for accom.

[bush sailer]

I have not had much experience yet but on my boat you do not need the centreboard when the boat is up on the foil (about 9knots upwind) . However in light conditions upwind and down the foil is a hindrence as it lifts the float and rotates the boat to windward loading the leeward float. My boat also needs the centreboard to tack efficiently and then drive back up to speed. The foil tends to lift the bows to windward trying to force the boat into the wind after a tack. The sail plan needs more horespower when using foils because you need to rotate the boat up on to the foil then off you go.

[Ian Farrier]

I have not had much experience yet but on my boat you do not need the centreboard when the boat is up on the foil (about 9knots upwind) . However in light conditions upwind and down the foil is a hindrence as it lifts the float and rotates the boat to windward loading the leeward float. My boat also needs the centreboard to tack efficiently and then drive back up to speed. The foil tends to lift the bows to windward trying to force the boat into the wind after a tack. The sail plan needs more horespower when using foils because you need to rotate the boat up on to the foil then off you go.

One also has to be careful here, as while the boat may appear to be going fine on foils alone while over 9 knots, is it going as well as it could with a deep central daggerboard as well? An F-boat, for instance, will appear to be going very well to windward in higher winds, without the central daggerboard down at all, but then you look around and see how quickly all the other boats are just climbing away to weather.

The last time I had foils only on the floats was with my original 30' tri back in 1970. It also felt like it went to windward very well in a blow, but it was a pig to tack, and hopeless in light airs. My first Trailertri in 1973 had a deep central centerboard instead, and the handling and weather ability was a revelation after float foils only, so I have never gone back.

I have also just updated the F-85SR web page, including a photo of the first Form Frames CNC machined from the dxf files.

http://www.f-boat.com/pages/News2/F-85SRconcept.html

and if you aren't keen on building your own boat, then the production F-22 is getting closer, and the F-22R version will be a true class racer that will not cost an arm and a leg, plus have room, along with trailerability that works. The latest production progress photos at:

http://www.f-boat.com/pages/trimarans/F-22Availability.html

Ian Farrier

Farrier Marine
Designs that work

[geodim]

I would like a trimaran with a central daggerboard I believe that this way it is easier to maneuver the boat and in very windy days on an upwind course you do not drift a lot.<br style=""> <br style="">

But I like to have a taller cabin.

So I have an Idea , I wander if it is possible to make a longer "pop top"(extended closer to the mast for about 50cm ) that will give you some additional space at the toilet and at the kitchen sink.

The extension of the "pop top" is going to be made with the addition of vertical and horizontal beams, in order to maintain the durability of the boat. Also the aeria under the beams is going to be the original one so someone will need to dent in order to pass them.


 82aft.bmp   385.93K   156 downloads

 deck82.bmp   412.18K   95 downloads

The magenta at the photos are the beams

is this possible or not?

[Ian Farrier]

I would like a trimaran with a central daggerboard I believe that this way it is easier to maneuver the boat and in very windy days on an upwind course you do not drift a lot.<br style=""> <br style="">

But I like to have a taller cabin.

So I have an Idea , I wander if it is possible to make a longer "pop top"(extended closer to the mast for about 50cm ) that will give you some additional space at the toilet and at the kitchen sink.

The extension of the "pop top" is going to be made with the addition of vertical and horizontal beams, in order to maintain the durability of the boat. Also the aeria under the beams is going to be the original one so someone will need to dent in order to pass them.


 82aft.bmp   385.93K   156 downloads

 deck82.bmp   412.18K   95 downloads

The magenta at the photos are the beams

is this possible or not?

Could be done, but the deck opening and hatch would definitely need strengthening. The main thing to be careful of would be that the mast still has enough clearance to go fully down when lowering. This depends on the step being used, but there have been a few holes punched in very early pop-tops due to oversize goosenecks.

Photo below shows the CNC machined form frames (cut by Mark Hastings) for one of the first F-85SRs being built.

 F-85SR 21.JPG   70.52K   32 downloads

Ian Farrier
Farrier Marine
Designs That Work...

[cap10ed]

From your home page Ian.( The F-85SR float lines are now available, with the F-85SR floats having a massive 600lbs more buoyancy than the F-82 floats. The main hull lines will be started soon after the fastest builder starts work on his second float, and should then be completed by the time they are needed. Dagger board, rig and sail plan will follow soon after.) What beams are available for this float? I own a F25C and would love to upgrade the floats for an additional 600lbs buoyancy. Will the old F25C beams handle the new float minus the curved foils.

Has anyone else noticed this?

Farrier F-85SR Design Concept

Maybe it's just the bows that look like an A-class, or maybe I'm just wrong in the head, but the lines of this thing make me a little fizzy. I was pretty much decided on building an F-82 anyway, I'd be all over a more modern version of it.

It is actually happening, with three already building. However, with so many other things to do, it is not yet an 'officially' released design, so lets keep this between ourselves.....right?

Basically, there are no dedicated plans yet, but one can start now with the purchase of a set of F-82 plans, which are then used as a building guide, but with F-85SR hull lines which are available as dxf files which can be purchased via:

http://www.f-boatmart.com/product.php?productid=16154&cat=255&page=1

A few special additional guide sheets then detail various other changes or improvements, such as deeper daggerboard, high aspect rudder or rudders, and fitting lifting foils. Float lines have just been completed, and main hull lines will be done after the first builder starts on his second float. Rig and sail plan will then follow, with the standard rig targeted at the NZ 8.5 rule. However there will be an optional taller 'super race' rig for those who prefer a very high power to weight ratio. But this would not be a boat for the inexperienced.

Ian Farrier

Farrier Marine
Designs that work...

[Ian Farrier]

From your home page Ian.( The F-85SR float lines are now available, with the F-85SR floats having a massive 600lbs more buoyancy than the F-82 floats. The main hull lines will be started soon after the fastest builder starts work on his second float, and should then be completed by the time they are needed. Dagger board, rig and sail plan will follow soon after.) What beams are available for this float? I own a F25C and would love to upgrade the floats for an additional 600lbs buoyancy. Will the old F25C beams handle the new float minus the curved foils.

The F-85SR uses the F-82R beams, which are a small improvement on the F-25C beams (higher and slimmer), and remain very good. The F-85SR floats should fit an F-25C but folded beam will be greater as the F-85SR main hull is slightly narrower at the waterline where the floats touch, which allows the larger floats. The F-25C beams will probably handle the extra buoyancy, as the beam stress is determined more by the boat's sailing weight than the float displacement. So provided you don't load the boat up then it should be fine.

Ian Farrier
Farrier Marine,
Designs that work...

[cap10ed]

Question about the Dreadnought style bows appearing everywhere. Besides that weird is cool what is the advantage. I might buy into it and start putting my ball cap on back wards.

[nige]

Question about the Dreadnought style bows appearing everywhere. Besides that weird is cool what is the advantage. I might buy into it and start putting my ball cap on back wards.

The idea is to reduce pitching by having the bow go through more of the wave and less over it, keeping more drive in the sails, less slow down compared to higher volume going into the wave so less loading etc.

[Oxygen Mask]

Plus more waterline length.

[Ian Farrier]

Question about the Dreadnought style bows appearing everywhere. Besides that weird is cool what is the advantage. I might buy into it and start putting my ball cap on back wards.

The idea is to reduce pitching by having the bow go through more of the wave and less over it, keeping more drive in the sails, less slow down compared to higher volume going into the wave so less loading etc.

There is also less windage, plus the risk of the float bows tripping the boat is reduced. Well rounded float bow tops (and deck edges) have always been the ideal, but there has been a limit to where the bows may look too strange and reduce the chances of commercial success. However, BMW-Oracle and Alinghi have changed that, and such bows are now more acceptable.

The F-85SR itself continues to progress, with four building (two in Europe) and we can now supply the optional lifting foils (which will be shortened F-32SR foils). All the little details such as angle of attack controls have now been sorted, and the first set has just been shipped.

 F-32SRFoilsLH.jpg   102.83K   41 downloads

Things continue to be very busy here, and, for those interested in the F-22, the first float shells have also now been made.

 Floathalf2-650-1.jpg   65.3K   46 downloads

The latest production photos being at:

http://www.f-boat.com/pages/News2/FM-Factory2010.html

Ian Farrier

Farrier Marine
Designs that work....

[eric e]

so sailing by June

production boats by august

world-wide delivery of boat-in-a-box by end of 2011?

barring any major unforseen snafu's that is ...

[Ian Farrier]

so sailing by June

production boats by august

world-wide delivery of boat-in-a-box by end of 2011?

barring any major unforseen snafu's that is ...

No timetable or deadlines as such, as the F-22 will take as long as it takes to get it right. But it is getting close!

Meanwhile the first F-85SR is progressing, with float bulkheads now made:

 F-85SRBulkheads.jpg   88.48K   73 downloads

Ian Farrier
Farrier Marine
Designs that work....

[Scarecrow]

Phill's photo album

[nyker]

Phill's photo album

I'm not that far yet, as I just finished building the strongback, but I'll get there.

http://www.nyker.nl/bouwruimtejan11.jpg

[nyker]

Is there any chance you'd be updating the main hull to have a cabin with the sharper lines of the F-22/F-32? I see that the design concept has the cut down racing cabin, but what if someone wanted to build a more dual-purpose boat with a cruising cabin on it? Is updating the cabin shape doable or does that represent a pretty massive amount of effort? I ask because I think the F-82 lines are looking a bit dated (don't take the the wrong way, the design *is* almost 20 years old). As new and pretty as the floats and hull are on an F-85, I think the original F-82 cruising cabin might look a little "off" if somebody stuck one on top of there. Just one man's opinion.

I don't see the problem. By the time my boat hits the water, the rounded cabintop will be in fashion again
The F-85SR with F-82 cabintop looks quite good I think. Here's my artist impression:

http://www.nyker.nl/...F-85Profile.jpg

[Ian Farrier]

Is there any chance you'd be updating the main hull to have a cabin with the sharper lines of the F-22/F-32? I see that the design concept has the cut down racing cabin, but what if someone wanted to build a more dual-purpose boat with a cruising cabin on it? Is updating the cabin shape doable or does that represent a pretty massive amount of effort? I ask because I think the F-82 lines are looking a bit dated (don't take the the wrong way, the design *is* almost 20 years old). As new and pretty as the floats and hull are on an F-85, I think the original F-82 cruising cabin might look a little "off" if somebody stuck one on top of there. Just one man's opinion.

I don't see the problem. By the time my boat hits the water, the rounded cabintop will be in fashion again
The F-85SR with F-82 cabintop looks quite good I think. Here's my artist impression:

http://www.nyker.nl/...F-85Profile.jpg

It is possible to make the cabin to whatever shape preferred. The cabin starts out with square corners,
which are then rounded over, so if squared corners are the preference, then don't round them over.
The ability to customize like this is one of the big advantages of building your own boat.

Ian Farrier
Farrier Marine
Designs that work

[Evil Gnome]

Phill's photo album

I'm not that far yet, as I just finished building the strongback, but I'll get there.

http://www.nyker.nl/...ruimtejan11.jpg

Nice looking shed you have there, I am jealous.
Evil

[nyker]

It is possible to make the cabin to whatever shape preferred. The cabin starts out with square corners,
which are then rounded over, so if squared corners are the preference, then don't round them over.
The ability to customize like this is one of the big advantages of building your own boat.

Ian Farrier
Farrier Marine
Designs that work

Actually, looking at the latest F-32SR picture, I might change my mind, as the square corners look quite good and in style with the straight bow. Still a long way off, though

[Ian Farrier]

[
Actually, looking at the latest F-32SR picture, I might change my mind, as the square corners look quite good and in style with the straight bow. Still a long way off, though

Square corners or just a slight round are also safer for the crew. Highly rounded corners and decks can be disconcerting and difficult to work on. In some cases it can be very risky to reef, as the roof slopes away much too fast.

I can still remember having to reef a 38' monohull on the way to Tonga many years ago, on one dark stormy night, and this particular keelboat had a highly rounded cabin roof, with very poor non-skid. It was a nightmare - one had to hang onto the boom just to stay near, which left just one hand to reef!

With this still fresh in mind, I designed the F-27 to have a flattish cabin roof with small radius corners, and it was very comfortable to work on. With memories of struggling in the night fading, I did a much more rounded deck on the F-31 and F-24, but was soon reminded that this was not a good idea. Thus the F-22 and F-32 have reverted back to the flatter deck of the F-27 and sharper corners, which actually now look better (to my eye anyway).

But, as previously stated, the ability to vary things is one advantage of building your own, and the plans allow for either sharp or well rounded corners.

Ian Farrier

Farrier Marine
Designs that work

[NYX]

But, as previously stated, the ability to vary things is one advantage of building your own,
Ian Farrier

Farrier Marine
Designs that work

"the ability to vary things is one advantage of building your own"
While I have found this to be very true I have also found it to be a great feeling to sail something that I've built.
I get it every time I go for a sail.
I built my first boat in 1982 and at the conclusion of the project I said to my good wife - "never again".
But when I took the boat for a sail there was something about it.
I've built over a dozen boats since then.
You just can't beat the feeling of sailing your own work.
The customising of the boat along the way is the icing on the cake.

I'm really enjoying the building of the F85SR.
So it's looking like I'll get paid back 3 fold.

As far as customising I'll build the larger style F82 cabin with the flatter decks and I've ordered
the lifting foil centrecases so I can install them before I close up the floats.

It's all good fun.

[Ian Farrier]

First photo of F-85SR lifting foil case in position is below:

 Glassing in foil case9.JPG   101.66K   132 downloads

Boat is being built by Phill Brander in NSW, Australia

Ian Farrier

Farrier Marine
Designs that work....

[Ian Farrier]

The first two F-85SR floats have now been joined by Phill Brander

 F-85SRfloatBows.jpg   135.24K   55 downloads

with only the solid foam bow sections still to be added before exterior laminating is done.

 F-85SRFloats650.jpg   116.03K   57 downloads

The curved lifting foil cases are also visible, and so far four of the F-85SRs under construction have opted
for these (or are fitting the cases anyway). A lot easier to do it now than add on later.

And another one (being built by Clive Kennedy):

 KennedyFloat600.jpg   116.25K   48 downloads

Ian Farrier

Farrier Marine
Designs that work....

[Speng]

Ian, do you have any idea how much faster the boat will be with foils? Say in 15 knot breeze u/w VMG, beam reach, d/w vmg?

[Ian Farrier]

Ian, do you have any idea how much faster the boat will be with foils? Say in 15 knot breeze u/w VMG, beam reach, d/w vmg?

Too many variables to say for sure, and it will take a couple of boats on the water, one with foils and one without, to get the true picture.

One should however be aware that curved float foils will add weight, expense and complexity, and this was the main reason I took them
off the production F-27 as the benefits apparent at that time were just not enough to justify their inclusion. The only race I ever used
them in was the 1985 Two Man Around Catalina Race, which we won, but I was unconvinced that the foils had helped that much.

The amount of lift we saw was not large, but I think the initial angle of attack was insufficient, and it became obvious that they had to
have an easy attack angle adjustment system. However, we just ran out of time to experiment, and I went with larger floats on the
production F-27 instead. Much simpler.

 F-27superfoxsail3.jpg   97.01K   85 downloads
The prototype F-27, and port foil (fully down) can just be seen behind forward beam.
The foils were a little more forward than they should have been, plus raising and lowering
each side when tacking was a nuisance on a more all round cruising orientated boat such
as the F-27.

I then became too busy to look at lifting foils again, until Kim Alfreds approached me about fitting angled float foils (as made by Waterat)
to his F-31 Cheekee Monkee in 2003. I outlined the best position and angle, and he came back very enthusiastic about the results.

 Cheekee-Monkey.jpg   190.86K   94 downloads

Interest rekindled, I then went back to the curved foils, as they are more user/boat friendly than straight foils, even if much harder to
make. All they really needed was a good angle of attack adjustment system, which I have now developed, and details are included in
the F-85SR and F-32SR plans.

However, curved lifting foils are definitely not for everyone, as they are very expensive, complex and add weight, but at least
they are now available 'off the shelf' for those who like being on the cutting edge.

http://www.f-boatmart.com/product.php?productid=16240&cat=253&page=2

Ian Farrier
Farrier Marine
Designs that work

[Evil Gnome]

Have the floats close to undercoating but back in WA working, will get some new photos in a week and a half, the new bows look really cool!
just ordered my foil cases and will be able to compare with Phill whether it is easier to put them in before joining or when joined,I think before joining looks easier but soon will see.

Can't wait to get back to NSW and keep going.
Evil

[Dick Ishuge]

Have the floats close to undercoating but back in WA working, will get some new photos in a week and a half, the new bows look really cool!
just ordered my foil cases and will be able to compare with Phill whether it is easier to put them in before joining or when joined,I think before joining looks easier but soon will see.

Can't wait to get back to NSW and keep going.
Evil

Evil, are you keeping a blog or picture log?
Dick has a hard on for these !!

[Evil Gnome]

unfortunately no as when I am back home I go hell for leather building and family things, also am not that computer literate as most know of me, I will get some pictures up if I can this Saturday.
PS whats a blog? Is that a bog that looks like a log?
No idea
Evil

[offtherails]

There is a blog on catsailor for an F85SR with nice pix.
http://www.catsailor...r=234597&page=5

[Try Flying]

Got a box of bits for you when you get back Evil Be carefull of them Magpies if you decide to polish them.

Its amusing that a "race" of sorts has already started with these two boats even before they hit the water. Long way to go before that happens but pretty good start.... 4 hulls nearly done... 2 big ones and some connecty bits to go ... oh yeah and... sand...sand...sand.


Cheers

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[Ian Farrier]

Got a box of bits for you when you get back Evil Be carefull of them Magpies if you decide to polish them.

Its amusing that a "race" of sorts has already started with these two boats even before they hit the water. Long way to go before that happens but pretty good start.... 4 hulls nearly done... 2 big ones and some connecty bits to go ... oh yeah and... sand...sand...sand.

and I just received the latest photos of Clive's two floats, in the latter stages of fairing:

 F-85SRFloatsFaired.jpg   97.28K   66 downloads
The nice thing about 'one off' floats - no join seams!

 F-85SRFloatBow.jpg   82.04K   51 downloads

Both NSW builders are now catching me up, having been very busy with the F-22 deck design and mold plug. However, have now started on the F-85SR beams, which should be finished next week, and these will keep them busy for a while. Main hull lines will then be next.

Ian Farrier
Farrier Marine
Designs that Work

[7391]

Both NSW builders are now catching me up, having been very busy with the F-22 deck design and mold plug.

Off topic question: what deck models will be available for F-22? Will there be daggerboard/centreboard models?

[nyker]

Off topic question: what deck models will be available for F-22? Will there be daggerboard/centreboard models?

Look a little bit further, and you'll find the topic F-22 Update
maybe that's a better place to ask this question ......

[Try Flying]

Now I don't know if it will make Evils or NYX's boats any faster... but they should look pretty sexy in the carpark

A final polish and its off to the anodisers.

Hey maybe a side benefit will be that the magpies keep the seagulls away

Cheers

PS you both owe me a sail.. or two!

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[nyker]

Now I don't know if it will make Evils or NYX's boats any faster... but they should look pretty sexy in the carpark

It's almost a shame that these jewels will be hidden under the beams Looking great, Mark

I can't work as fast as both Ausies, but I'm getting there. I glued together the floats and I can start taping the inside next week.
Here's a picture that I took yesterday. I'm having great fun building and the sailing should be even better

 IMAG0147_1.jpg   97.61K   52 downloads

[Ian Farrier]

Now I don't know if it will make Evils or NYX's boats any faster... but they should look pretty sexy in the carpark

It's almost a shame that these jewels will be hidden under the beams Looking great, Mark

I can't work as fast as both Ausies, but I'm getting there. I glued together the floats and I can start taping the inside next week.
Here's a picture that I took yesterday. I'm having great fun building and the sailing should be even better

 IMAG0147_1.jpg   97.61K   52 downloads

Another photo of the Mark Hastings built folding struts (polished) for the F-85SR is below

 F82srFoldingStruts.jpg   132.8K   48 downloads

Note that these can also be used on F-82s, the folding system being the same for both designs.

The F-85SR plans remain a work in progress, with floats and beam plans having been released, but other details are still in process. However, with the first F-22 production main hull now made, I managed to find the time to do the F-85SR main hull lines this week. Still some final details to be checked out, but the base lines are now done, and builders should receive them (along with the necessary drawings) next month.

Ian Farrier
Farrier Marine
Designs that work..

[Ian Farrier]

I'm pleased to say (finally) that the F-85SR plans for main hull, floats, beams daggerboard and rudder are now complete, which means the F-85SR has become bus proof (designer gets run over by bus - one can finish the boat).

Final profile drawing below:

 F-85SR-Profile.jpg   89.06K   138 downloads

and some more up to date details are on:

http://www.f-boat.co...5SRconcept.html

Ian Farrier
Farrier Marine
Designs that work..

[gthomas72]

Ian,
Thanks for the update on the F-85SR. I am hoping that Melvest Marine is still in the business of building your boats, as I don't have the time to build one myself. I think this will suit me better than the F-22 as it is slightly larger and hopefully faster. I am waiting for their response.
I was wondering if the F-85SR is designed to get a Cat 3 rating for offshore races. I am keen to get it set up to do these races, but I note that the requirements these days are getting tougher to meet especially with respect to new builds. An F-32AX is to big for me, so I am hoping that the F-85SR is suitable.
I hope to take it back to Perth once I stop living in the Phlippines and sail it offshore Fremantle and down to Geographe Bay in the various regattas.
CheersGlynn

[Ian Farrier]

I was wondering if the F-85SR is designed to get a Cat 3 rating for offshore races. I am keen to get it set up to do these races, but I note that the requirements these days are getting tougher to meet especially with respect to new builds. An F-32AX is to big for me, so I am hoping that the F-85SR is suitable.
I hope to take it back to Perth once I stop living in the Phlippines and sail it offshore Fremantle and down to Geographe Bay in the various regattas.
CheersGlynn

I don't really design for rules, but I don't see a problem for the F-85SR to qualify under any rule, so long as it meets the minimum length requirements. Certainly strong enough, plenty of room, escape hatch is standard, as is an accessible under wing compartment for safety gear and flares etc.

Ian Farrier
Farrier Marine
Designs that work

[Dead air]

I know of F82's that have sucessfully met the CAT3 requirements, so there is no reason why the the 85 cannot, provided the right equipment and precautions are onboard.

[gthomas72]

Ian, Dead Air,
Thanks for the response about meeting the ISAF Offshore Special Regulations for Category 3 Multihulls. After re-reading the regs, it appears that it may be easier to meet these than on first reading. For Cat 3 most of it relates to the equipment to be carried as opposed to the design.
I want to make sure that if I spend the sort of money required for a F-85SR, I can do the sailing that I want to.
My other question is, is there any difference between the boat for the for the 11.3m mast and the 12.6 m or is it just different rigging, ie. I can upgrade the mast, rigging and sails in the future without having to rebuild the boat.
CheersGlynn

[auscat]

Ian, Dead Air,
Thanks for the response about meeting the ISAF Offshore Special Regulations for Category 3 Multihulls. After re-reading the regs, it appears that it may be easier to meet these than on first reading. For Cat 3 most of it relates to the equipment to be carried as opposed to the design.
I want to make sure that if I spend the sort of money required for a F-85SR, I can do the sailing that I want to.
My other question is, is there any difference between the boat for the for the 11.3m mast and the 12.6 m or is it just different rigging, ie. I can upgrade the mast, rigging and sails in the future without having to rebuild the boat.
CheersGlynn

Speak to the people running the races.The boat will make the grade and if you and your crew can show ample understanding of the requirments ,game on.

Peoplr not the boat will be your let down.

[offtherails]

imho: get the racing rig and reef the main on those rare occasions when you need to - much more cost effective than upgrading at some future date.

[Try Flying]

Well the shiny bits are back from the anodisers... Evils is the polished black set and NYX is the brushed clear coat. Because of the depth of anodizing required you loose some of the sparkle but they still came up nice even if I do say so myself

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[Try Flying]

.... Oh yeah ... want to see what the polish ends up looking like when they forget one piece in the acid bath ?.... "that'll buff right out...."

The up side is its alot lighter LOL! Ya gotta laugh or you'd shot somebody!

Cheers

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[Foghorn77]

.... Oh yeah ... want to see what the polish ends up looking like when they forget one piece in the acid bath ?.... "that'll buff right out...."

The up side is its alot lighter LOL! Ya gotta laugh or you'd shot somebody!

Cheers

Ouch.

[nyker]

Aaaargh, that sure ruins your day ...
The others look really nice though

[Evil Gnome]

I just picked up my set from Mark and they are outstanding both in detail and finish.
Thanks Mark

Evil

[gthomas72]

I had my first meeting with some of the guys from Melvest Marine today about building a F-85SR. They were very informative and gave me some ideas about what I should be looking for in the spec for the F-85SR.
One question that they could not answer was whether it would be better to set up the boat with a self tacking jib or maintain a normal jib arrangement. I have been following the discussions about the self tacking jib arrangement on the F-32SR "Jail Break", which would make the boat easier to sail short handed, but they couldn't answer whether the smaller headsail would penalise performance more than the benefit of a self tacking jib. Their view was that it was pretty easy to tack anyway, so no real benefit, and I should go for a conventionally rigged jib.
I was wondering if anyone had any views on this matter. I am particularly interested in Ian's view if he might have time to give them.
ThanksGlynn

[vmg]

If you are sailing upwind/downwind courses, the self tacker won't slow you down too much [Boat speed].
As soon as you free off and start fine reaching, any sort of overlaping jib will make the world of difference.

Self tackers are quite difficult to set up. On a jib/genoa you try and bisect the angle of the leech and foot to get the angle of the sheet. on the self tacker, the track needs to be further foward to handle the loads of the long leech [Compared to a short foot].Because the whole thing is squeezed into a tight space in the foretriangle, the sailmaker needs to get it spot-on because you won't have the luxury of moving the track fore or aft, all you can do is move the sail up and down the forestay a bit.

It would be a good idea to use a sailmaker that has done work on F18s or Tornados

the sail is smaller, but don't under-estimate the loads needed to get that leech working properly.

Tiny tweaks makes the difference in performance on self tackers.

i guess that you will be racing off of some sort of handicap - see how the measurer will penalise you or not.

[Oxygen Mask]

....
One question that they could not answer was whether it would be better to set up the boat with a self tacking jib or maintain a normal jib arrangement...
.. but they couldn't answer whether the smaller headsail would penalise performance more than the benefit of a self tacking jib

Would be shocked if they would have knowlegeable answers to those questions.
I'd talk to the boat designer, and top sailmakers, and owners who've used both.
But not the boatbuilder.

I believe that even the best set up self tacker will sacrifice some absolute performance for the convenience.
But if it makes the boat easier to sail shorthanded or singlehanded, or simply more crew-error proof, it might well be faster around a race course.

[nige]

....
One question that they could not answer was whether it would be better to set up the boat with a self tacking jib or maintain a normal jib arrangement...
.. but they couldn't answer whether the smaller headsail would penalise performance more than the benefit of a self tacking jib

Would be shocked if they would have knowlegeable answers to those questions.
I'd talk to the boat designer, and top sailmakers, and owners who've used both.
But not the boatbuilder.

I believe that even the best set up self tacker will sacrifice some absolute performance for the convenience.
But if it makes the boat easier to sail shorthanded or singlehanded, or simply more crew-error proof, it might well be faster around a race course.

Agreed - my experience with Melvest is that they just build the boats to plan or your requirements (very well) you should speak to some current racers to see their opinions on speed.

I am adding self tacking to my 32, I dont expect it to be faster but I expect to sail short handed and in generally shifty conditions.

[Occams Razor]

you can battle the problem of the sail needing to fit exactly with an adjustable clew board.

[gthomas72]

All credit to the guys I met from Melvest in that they we completely honest about the fact they where unsure how much loss of power would result from a smaller jib and about how much benefit you actually get from a self tacking jib.
Andrew Johnson is a very experienced sailor and his opinion (and he qualified this opinion in that he has never sailed on a self tacker) is that a conventional jib is easy to handle anyway on the F-82/85 and therefore no need to worry about the complexity of a self tacking jib and the possible loss of power. Andrew has sailed a F-82 many times before including single handed on short passages.
After the first few posts on this matter, my question is (to all Farrier racers and a possible Farrier designer) how easy is a F-82 (given a F-85 has yet to be finished) to short hand with a conventional jib or would it be better to add a self taker to make it easier (given the possible loss of power)?
ThanksGlynn

[GybeSet®]

Their view was that it was pretty easy to tack anyway, so no real benefit, and I should go for a conventionally rigged jib.
I was wondering if anyone had any views on this matter. I am particularly interested in Ian's view if he might have time to give them.
ThanksGlynn

speak to Ullmans they might be able to get the extended clew (sqr'd off clewboard) details from the Sydney loft used on the local 18 footers
they won't give up a sqr inch of area

It's concievable that you could have a 105% heady where a 100% one was,
even 110% with roach

its also adjustable for sheet angle

you might not lose any area at all, and it's WELL proven in battle, you won't be experimental

[Wilpy]

The question is how much do you need. Voodoo Spirit has a self tacking jib and goes like a shower of Sh#t up hill.
Go with simplicity every time.

[nyker]

..... that a conventional jib is easy to handle anyway on the F-82/85 and therefore no need to worry about the complexity of a self tacking jib and the possible loss of power. Andrew has sailed a F-82 many times before including single handed on short passages.....

Hello Glynn,


There is a difference between the F-82 and the F-85. The jib on the F-85 is about 50% larger than on the F-82.
Also there is the question whether a ( smaller ) self tacking jib would affect sailbalance. I don't yet know what I'm going to do myself, so thanks for putting forward the question

One option that I'm looking at is going with the standard overlapping jib and using a 1:3 purchase on the jibsheet so that I don't need a winch.

regards
Nico

[eric e]

why not do as the tornado did

when moving from classic to modern in 1999?

The new jib had the same area, but was longer on the luff and shorter on the foot to allow it to be sheeted to the main beam. Interestingly, this change, moving the sail area forward, overcame one of the Tornado’s handicaps, tacking, and made this maneuver much easier. The innovation of a self-tacking jib appeared later in 2001, and was quickly adopted by the entire fleet.

http://www.tornado-c...ass/history.htm

[rob d]

Saw a fully battened overlapping self tacker on BOSS racing today- I assume Saxby made it. Clew board 2-3 feet (?) forward of the clew. Might be a picture of it somewhere?