185 replies to this topic

[patrickrynne]

Had an epic afternoon yesterday having the ultimate showdown between some of the fastest sailing craft in the world. Here is a quick preview.



information for the poll question

Athletes
49er - Alex Bishop & Valen Smith
Moth - Brad Funk
Kites - Damien Leroy, Kent Marinkovic & Garry Menk

Conditions
12-16 knots, shifty and gusty. Flat water.

Course
Windward-Leewards. First leg was about 1/3 mile.

we had 5 races...and the winner was dominant


full reports coming soon...

[catsailordude]

I'll guess the Moth would be fastest on a windward-leeward course in those conditions, although it could be the kite. I would expect the 49er to be a distant 3rd. A Nacra F20 Carbon would probably have a good shot at beating all of these on a windward-leeward course in those conditions.

[dogedog]

as i pull my face-mask down over my head to avoid the ensuing verbal spit-ball banter....kite board must win while the wind is more than12 knots...a game of apparent windspeeds and drag (obviously)

curious who wins in 5-8 knots...

[simbert]

I am sorry, what's the point again?

[dogedog]

because they can

[Tri-Rock]

Humm, voted for the kite as it is definitely the fastest straight line when powered up(obvious as they have nearly doubled the top end speed of the dingies). However, now notice we are on a windward leeward in 12-16. That's probably not enough for the kite to really jam up wind or down, also the kiteboard used in the vid didnt look like a modern race board so I think the kite is stuffed. Not that familiar with the moths bottom end foiling speed, but think that 12K would probably have her foilin all de time. The 49er........hummm in 12K her downwind angles probably not that good. by racing all craft in moderate conditions you are not really seeing who is the fastest, just who is the most efficient for the conditions.

[<deleted user>]

whichever one bora is on, will win

[Vernon Green]

The moth is gonna take it, The kite can't go upwind well enough to out do the moth and the 49er isn't in the realm of the other two.

The moth is gonna take it, The kite can't go upwind well enough to out do the moth and the 49er isn't in the realm of the other two.

[AUS8888]

Who cares...I'm just hanging to see the rest of the video. I have this feeling it's going to be shit hot.
But do need to expand this and add in a F20c, F18 or A class.

Now show us the rest.!!!!!!!!!

[davethesailor]

now THIS is what I call a FAST KITE:

[BalticBandit]

The moth is gonna take it, The kite can't go upwind well enough to out do the moth and the 49er isn't in the realm of the other two.

The moth is gonna take it, The kite can't go upwind well enough to out do the moth and the 49er isn't in the realm of the other two.

Moth, 49er, then Kite. Kites are fast, but they don't do multiples of windspeed upwind. in 14-15 knots flat water, the 9er is going to be close to the moth downwind, maybe even faster, but will lose on the upwind.

[smc]

Looks like fun, I still can't get my head around how kites go upwind but guess the others will be quicker. Looking forward to rest of vid!

[greekMelges24]

kite is really fast in all courses, even upwind. no chance for the moth or 49er to beat the kite.

kite just is NOT sailing, so I don't get the point of this.

[BalticBandit]

kite is really fast in all courses, even upwind. no chance for the moth or 49er to beat the kite.

kite just is NOT sailing, so I don't get the point of this.

"really fast" isn't a measure. What multiple of wind speed does it do? Because the moth starts pushing 2x in 13-14knots and the 49er is in the 1.2 Upwind and approaching 2x downwind.

[Pete M]

when we race on the same course as the moths - they always start the skiffs in front - the reason being that the moths may be faster at any one time - but the bulk of the moth fleet has a slower elapsed time than the skiffs

[Captain Bastard]

I'm saying kites win as the business pushing the video sells kites and not Moths or 49ers.

[simbert]

I am more into who hit the bar first.

[jwlbrace]

I just voted Moth out of my loyalty to singlehanded dinghy sailing.

[jhc]

Didn't vote, but I'll be the first to take the 49er...dominant.

flame on.

there, i voted

['Uigi]

Where's the line in the speed sand of sailing? It's a fine line calling kite running rigging a mast, and therefore a "sailboat".

[glowmaster]

Kite guys are buying 30 cm long blade fins from windsurfers to go on these racing boards, not the little wakeboard dingles. They are clearing me out of my old tectonics.

I vote kite. Those fins can create a lot of lift. I've felt it.


ed

[dacapo]

Didn't vote, but I'll be the first to take the 49er...dominant.

flame on.

there, i voted

i voted 49er too...because it can hold the most beer of the three

[storm petrel]

I'm saying kites win as the business pushing the video sells kites and not Moths or 49ers.

same here

[Ludicrous Speed]

+1, +2, +3...

I am sorry, what's the point again?

[Ludicrous Speed]

Blokarts are 2x faster than any of them, at minimum.

Yawn

[Zipped]

when's the full video going to be ready?

[MultiMani]

The question is irrelevant.. There is no Tornado in there

[knotMoving]

kite - thats a big kite and and looks like a race board to me -with the right fins they go upwind pretty good & I am guessing just kiteloop the hell out of it downwind?
one thing I know is the kiters are having the most fun - I've only sailed my laser twice in the last year & I'm not even any damn good on a kiteboard yet!

[BobBill]

Does it really make any fargin' difference?

[unShirley]

Too bad a cat was included

[Rainier]

Moth all around but that looks a lot like a dying (aka8-10) knot breeze there.

Oh, and a lot of people are at Pressure Drop and ain't coming back, pompous asshole who got beat up a lot as a kid and now thinks he is cool because a bunch of yachting goons who want to be called rebels but really aren't don't know any better guy.

[Raked aft \\]

I call it close at the weather mark with the kite and moth.

The Kite crushes downhill !!

[P Flados]

I voted moth based on better pointing angles against the kites. Kites probably have better raw speeds, and may have a chance, but the chop was really not ideal for them. I could be wrong.

[Paradigm]

Were is the F18 cat or you chicken?? In those wind conditions I think it would be a great race between the cat and the others.

[Matt D]

Didn't vote, but I'll be the first to take the 49er...dominant.

flame on.

there, i voted

i voted 49er too...because it can hold the most beer of the three

Dude, you don't drink brews on a skiff/9er, you smoke spliffs.

I vote kite on speed (not velocity). Velocity on a w/l course is a toss up between the 9 er and the moth; depending greatly on wind strength and sailors.

The ultimate winner in w/l soft water ourses of course in small exciting vessels is fredo/mangos and their c-class cat. Open it up further, and ice- boats embarrass us all.

[Matt D]

On another note, bring this to dinghy anarchy, where this belongs.

[DelNorte]

Who is driving the moth? I think who's sailing each craft will have just as much to do with who wins then their potential speed.

[Turkey Slapper]

Id say the moth would be right there, and it would have the smallest sail area!

[Zipped]

Moth all around but that looks a lot like a dying (aka8-10) knot breeze there.

Oh, and a lot of people are at Pressure Drop and ain't coming back, pompous asshole who got beat up a lot as a kid and now thinks he is cool because a bunch of yachting goons who want to be called rebels but really aren't don't know any better guy.

fuck are you talking about? 16 posts since july 09... Fuck off noob, you don't know shit

[samc99us]

Only F20c in N.A at present is a ~14 hour drive from Miami. There are some fast Tornado sailors down there that probably would've been happy to come out and play. I'm fairly certain the Tornado is faster than the 49er, the Moth and Kite it can probably hang with in those conditions.

Oh, and the site of Miami on the first leg of Tybee is a sight for sore eyes!

[skiffman]

Moth will win because of bora, the kite will be last and the 49er 2nd. I think that if you got a similar standard sailor in all classes it would be very close between the moth and 49er.

The kites are only faster than RSX's and the 49er is quite a bit quicker in those conidtions.

We have raced some good moths and a very well sailed moth is faster but a club sailor is quite a bit slower.

[rx3]

Power to weight pure and simple. On a reach with wind above 12 tkts the others can't touch the kite. This discussion is done.

[french passionate]

Hi

If you can read french (better than I can write english !), you will find an interesting article in french revue "BATEAUX" (issue 631, december 2010) where 4 boats:

a moth with foil
a catamaran Class A
a Formula Windsurf
a RS 700

has run in upwind/downwind course by about ten Knots of wind.

I don't vote, I wait, very curious !!!

[HobieBlair]

Where's the SUP contingent?

[Hobiecat]

In this vid the kite is sineing a lot meaning which means he is not fully powered up.

And Kiting is sailing ....just a really small boat you stand on with all running rigging!

Muhammad Ali was so cool back in his day!!

[Pedro]

I like oranges more than I like apples...

[FSUsailor]

I sail 49er and sadly i have to say that the kite wins. Simply because i saw Brad Funk in the boat yard minutes after this video was taken and he told me that the kite beat him 2-1. The 49er came in last.

[Zipped]

Power to weight pure and simple. On a reach with wind above 12 tkts the others can't touch the kite. This discussion is done.

did you not see this? many people are not familiar with how well kites do in a racing situation and have only seen them reach

Course
Windward-Leewards. First leg was about 1/3 mile.

[sailsail]

I sail 49er and sadly i have to say that the kite wins. Simply because i saw Brad Funk in the boat yard minutes after this video was taken and he told me that the kite beat him 2-1. The 49er came in last.

Thanks for ruining it.

[gopink]

why 3 kites, and not 3 moths and 49ers?

I voted Moth, but would switch to kite because it sounds rigged! and good eye that it was produced by the kite company

[eric nelson]

I sail 49er and sadly i have to say that the kite wins. Simply because i saw Brad Funk in the boat yard minutes after this video was taken and he told me that the kite beat him 2-1. The 49er came in last.

Thanks for ruining it.

We don't know the margin so I wouldn't say totally ruined. Also, there was only one moth and four kiters so the odds are that a kite could split and get a shift in favor. I'd still like to see the video.

[eric nelson]

kite is really fast in all courses, even upwind. no chance for the moth or 49er to beat the kite.

kite just is NOT sailing, so I don't get the point of this.

Pretty soon the moth will NOT be "SAILING" anymore. So what is your point again?

[Little Bleck]

According to the Australian version of the FAA the foiling moth is an experimental aircraft.

[Frenchy in Tampa]

I was wondering if the Kite can go Dead DownWind while looping the kite? If so can he go faster than the wind Dead Downwind???

I haven't done any kite, just about a lot of windsurfing, but I'm sure you put a 20 in. fin from a windsurf raceboard, and the kite will go upwind pretty hard!!

[eric nelson]

I was wondering if the Kite can go Dead DownWind while looping the kite? If so can he go faster than the wind Dead Downwind???

I haven't done any kite, just about a lot of windsurfing, but I'm sure you put a 20 in. fin from a windsurf raceboard, and the kite will go upwind pretty hard!!

Not quite dean down. They can go very low and play the shifts by down looping the kite to the new tack. In lighter breeze, itt's important to keep the board edge pressured to give something to pull against to steer the kite. Sometimes looping the kite continuously is the quickest way downhill. In the gorge games, back in the day, I heard that Flash Austin looped the kite continuously through the swell city / hatchery area on his way to winning. The year I did it the wind was lighter and dead down wasn't possible on the small board I was on.

[gkny]

How would one of the formula boards fare? W

[POH]

would be cool if they all had speedpucks and you could see the COG - vote Moth as I think the kite angle of attach upwind would offset their dominance coming back down.

[RobS]

Probably depends on the wind

0-8 knots: 49er
9-12 knots: Kite
13-20 knots: Moth
21+: Kite

Once a Moth is foiling a 49er can't even come close, Moths are even beating the 18's round the course regularly now

[soak_ed]

Reminds me of the endless Chevy, MoPar, Ford arguments back in the day  Kids are kids, just different toys....

[Turkey Slapper]

On a W/L course, Ford for sure!

[swanee]

I don't care who wins, I'm pumped about a pretty sweet production value sailing movie!

[jader]

12-16 knots? That doesn't really make sense for the 49er... Skiffs have the best downwind performance around 20-25 knots, and not in medium winds.
We have raced against formula sailboards with our 49er in 20kts+ winds, and regulary gave them a few hundred meters on up&down course.

But when you really want to compare a skiff, a foiler and a kite, you should have used an 18 footer... These machines easily beat kites. (Example: Bridge-to-Bridge, SF)

Moths are really fast, but you can not manage a foiler in waves that are still doable on an 18footer...

[oddsailor]

upwind moth, downwind kite. downwind the kite is just silly - you can go 170 deg and still feel apparent wind in your face!

[Call Me Boomvang]

Kite wins as long as it does not run into a building

[fstued]

Kite will go the fastest hands down but they can't hold it. That is when the Moth kicks in. In the right condition the 49er would do well but over all it is a Moth race

[ducati748]

The DN wins.

[furling]

Why bother racing against a 49er it is slow as hell, has a shit yardstick and is stiffiling the olympics, there is no brag there, the moth is a worthy opponent, but its soft sail provides approx 20% less power than the wing , so again no brag to be had there by the kite puppet sailers, reminds me of watching thunderbirds are go!

[furling]

Where was the wind speed measured, on the water or where the kite was ?????? they would have us believe that the kite`s were in the same wind speed as the other 2 but that just isnt true !!!!

[rtrs]

i assume the kite used a 8m kite so it had the same sail area as the moth?

[ducky]

On a W/L course, Ford for sure!

I think the chevy would rule!

[Coastbuster]

Blokarts are 2x faster than any of them, at minimum.

Yawn

All down to who is on the machine! Going to go with the Moth as it is windward leeward. Kites should be used to provide coverage for all small boat sailing events as it show the angles? They dont interfere with the wind of the boats racing and can be way off the action but right in it with a good camera.

Any photographer of sailing must be following that route having seen this vid.

O.K ready for my welcome!

[Cheesy]

i assume the kite used a 8m kite so it had the same sail area as the moth?

And the 49er had sails cut down to 16m^2 (since it is for two people after all) as well.....

[sansouci]

A race of this sort was held in San Francisco Bay in August of this year (a link to the report is here http://www.latitude3...08-27&dayid=472 ). Race was kites vs 18's vs boards vs foiling tri powered by a kite. Much carnage on the course but the winner was a 18 skiff.

[DEAD MONEY]

The "Kite" is NOT a Sailboat and never will be. Why do they (or anyone) think just because they use wind that they should be in the same category??

In Light Wind (0 to 6) the 49 will Win.

In Medium (6 to 12) the Moth...as long as it can Plane will win.

In Heavy (12 and Higher) the Kite will be gone.

Assuming this "Race" takes place in a very protected flat sea state. It's really NOT a fair "Race" setup. As the Kite has a big time advantage.

[dacapo]

O.K ready for my welcome!

because you're ready......































it ain't coming

[Essie]

why wouldn't they sail a with with a wing? and how does a kite point....

[Gato Salvaje Pequeno]

It's def the Moth that wins.. but that's wind conditions that decide this race.
Change it up and make it shifty and gusty then I'd say the 49'er,
and change it to all downwind then we know it would be the kite.

[Ludicrous Speed]

Neither is a foiled moth, but I dont think that matters either.

The "Kite" is NOT a Sailboat and never will be. Why do they (or anyone) think just because they use wind that they should be in the same category??

In Light Wind (0 to 6) the 49 will Win.

In Medium (6 to 12) the Moth...as long as it can Plane will win.

In Heavy (12 and Higher) the Kite will be gone.

Assuming this "Race" takes place in a very protected flat sea state. It's really NOT a fair "Race" setup. As the Kite has a big time advantage.

[Ludicrous Speed]

http://www.greenbird.co.uk/

Yawn. Not even close, not even 1/3 the speed of this machine. Since this is apples, to widgets, to fossils, to potatoes...

[Amati]

now THIS is what I call a FAST KITE:

I am a fucking sailing PUSSY!

Ground effect flying that close to your nuts?



Fuck!

[Greenflash]

I sail 49er and sadly i have to say that the kite wins. Simply because i saw Brad Funk in the boat yard minutes after this video was taken and he told me that the kite beat him 2-1. The 49er came in last.

aaaah sigh. you douche

[richdirector]

Moth (maybe) at the top mark Kite wins overall by a way ...... 49er distant 3rd all the way around. 18knot steady would have been better .......

[richdirector]

kite is really fast in all courses, even upwind. no chance for the moth or 49er to beat the kite.

kite just is NOT sailing, so I don't get the point of this.

"really fast" isn't a measure. What multiple of wind speed does it do? Because the moth starts pushing 2x in 13-14knots and the 49er is in the 1.2 Upwind and approaching 2x downwind.

Haha I agree but then look here at this site - http://northkitesusa...pages/Race.html

they say the speed is lightning fast (presumably speaking about those old dingies as opposed to flashes in the sky) my money on the kite of course ... even my twintip board (for tricks) can hit 28knots with concentration and the rocker sucks speed .... of course race boards have killer G10 fins that really help it point. Angle of attack on the kites themselves pretty good. I would say Kite could push 2x wind speed as well, and probably close to 2.5x reaching and broadreaching.

[carlosgp5]

Isnt anybody forgeting about how Formula Windsurfing would easily beat those 3 with that condition? Not only those three but most probably any sailing craft...
Nice vid though... Cheers

[Doug Culnane]

Isnt anybody forgeting about how Formula Windsurfing would easily beat those 3 with that condition? Not only those three but most probably any sailing craft...
Nice vid though... Cheers

Not so sure. I beat a very good Foluma Board in a Moth when there was a little less wind. It was very close but the formula board gets stuck in lulls much more than the Moth. It is all about the conditions but flat water and 10 Knots the Moth is my bet. In 50 Knots of wind or 5 knots you would get 2 different answers from me.

[Swanno (Ohf Shore)]

One thing is certain, we have set a world record of Newbs posting in the one thread and not one set of boobs!

[bgulari]

I heard the moth's tacks were not quite up to par. When he could pull them off is when he won. When he did not tack well the kite won. Give an 8m^2 kite to the kiteboarder see how he goes.

[eric nelson]

I heard the moth's tacks were not quite up to par. When he could pull them off is when he won. When he did not tack well the kite won. Give an 8m^2 kite to the kiteboarder see how he goes.

The projected area of a 8 m^2 kite is somewhere around 6.5 m^2. I don't know the exact, orthogonal to lines area, conversion for a crossbow style kite. Having a quiver of kites to choose from is definitely an advantage. Without being lit the kite would hardly be able to point at all.

[Geff]

The DN wins.

Was just going to say that

[MCP]

This was actually a trick question......

The winner was Chuck Norris.
And he was swimming...... With out fins

[F-18 5150]

The F-20c won

[Shaggy]

This was actually a trick question......

The winner was Chuck Norris.
And he was swimming...... With out fins

Na,
The contest is on the H20, THutch won hands down.....

[greekMelges24]

guys , I have seen kites in windspeeds from 6 to 30+ knots. These things can do unimaginable things in terms of upwind angles and "multiple of wind speed" ,as you
scientists of sailing like to call it.
they fly around us like crazy, we are in dinghies up to 18knots and/or windsurfs in waves and 20+.
but it's not sailing...

kite is really fast in all courses, even upwind. no chance for the moth or 49er to beat the kite.

kite just is NOT sailing, so I don't get the point of this.

"really fast" isn't a measure. What multiple of wind speed does it do? Because the moth starts pushing 2x in 13-14knots and the 49er is in the 1.2 Upwind and approaching 2x downwind.

Haha I agree but then look here at this site - http://northkitesusa...pages/Race.html

they say the speed is lightning fast (presumably speaking about those old dingies as opposed to flashes in the sky) my money on the kite of course ... even my twintip board (for tricks) can hit 28knots with concentration and the rocker sucks speed .... of course race boards have killer G10 fins that really help it point. Angle of attack on the kites themselves pretty good. I would say Kite could push 2x wind speed as well, and probably close to 2.5x reaching and broadreaching.

[rtrs]

The DN wins.

not in miami.

[KitesurfKid]

As a kiter, I think the Moth is winning. Unless he crashes.

[Icedtea]

The European production speedsailing championships were on in front of my house last year and Christ those kites are fast.......

So yeah, I'm guessing kite

[Rolfe'd]

Someone already gave away the answer on here. Are there any pictures? I could really use some new wallpaper

[H-MAN]

I'm saying kites win as the business pushing the video sells kites and not Moths or 49ers.

Correct. Look at who is hosting this to find your answer.

[misconseption2348]

Only bummer for the moth in this type of race is your lack of mast hight. Kinda hard to get up and foil with a 49er camping on you, having a kite and being able to pop it up into what should be better breeze makes a huge difference, plus being able to get a ton of lateral separation, makes it harder to get rolled. Mind you having someone set up right underneath you at a start must kinda suck. how do you start those anyways? And yes it is sailing, you over traditional duchbags, just like a prius and an F1 are both cars. why wouldn't it be, it's powered by the wind, and you move. Is calling it a vessel better for you, same for the land carts, fine don't call it a boat, it's a vessel, just like your sister isn't a whore she's adventurous.

[blubberboy]

I heard the moth's tacks were not quite up to par. When he could pull them off is when he won. When he did not tack well the kite won. Give an 8m^2 kite to the kiteboarder see how he goes.

Well there we have it. Thx B, see you next summer...