33 replies to this topic

[KevinMackenzie]

I am an experienced (3rd boat) but still crappy sailor. The desire to eat (vs starve) has moved me to North Texas, although I am actually enjoying here immensely. I sold my cruising cat when I left my previous coastal home.

So now I want a small, very cheap monohull boat for lake sailing. Price, my desire for a fixed keel, fairly fast boat, and what is currently on the market, have narrowed my choices to a Ranger 22 or a Mirage 236 FIN KEEL. I know these boats are not equivalent, but hey, I don't pick what people decide to sell. (The keel is in caps, because there are also daggerboard versions of this boat, which is not what I am considering.)

I can find a lot of comment on the Ranger 22, but almost none on the Mirage. I guess a relatively small number were made in Florida by Mirage Manufacturing, who has now gone to the dark side.

Can anyone comment on the sailing qualities of the Mirage 236FK? The Ranger 22 is a relatively stiff boat, one that I hope I can sail in the 20+ that we get down here occassionally, sometimes with little warning. I will be sailing single or shorthanded most of the time, except when racing, when I hope to find enough people to form a proper crew. I weigh close to 300 lbs if that matters in your comments. I am wondering if the 236FK is more than normally tender, as a classified ad I can find for the boat says that it is a good "light and medium air racing boat". Not sure what they were trying to say there...

Any help you can provide would be greatly appreciated.

Fair winds,

Kevin

[Vernon Green]

You don't want either one of those!
You want a Santana 20! Really it has everything that those two have plus a great one design fleet if you get the hankering for racing. Plus it is at least 500 pounds lighter than either of the others listed. When I was shopping for a keel boat originally the Ranger crossed my mind but since they are no longer made parts will be tough to find. With the Santana there are parts and decent sails on the second hand market. Plus I want someone to race against in Dallas!

On another note, there is a Mirage 236 sitting at Lake Texoma that hasn't moved in 3-4 years that could be a serious project boat if you are wanting that type of thing.

[JPD]

I am an experienced (3rd boat) but still crappy sailor. The desire to eat (vs starve) has moved me to North Texas, although I am actually enjoying here immensely. I sold my cruising cat when I left my previous coastal home.

So now I want a small, very cheap monohull boat for lake sailing. Price, my desire for a fixed keel, fairly fast boat, and what is currently on the market, have narrowed my choices to a Ranger 22 or a Mirage 236 FIN KEEL. I know these boats are not equivalent, but hey, I don't pick what people decide to sell. (The keel is in caps, because there are also daggerboard versions of this boat, which is not what I am considering.)

I can find a lot of comment on the Ranger 22, but almost none on the Mirage. I guess a relatively small number were made in Florida by Mirage Manufacturing, who has now gone to the dark side.

Can anyone comment on the sailing qualities of the Mirage 236FK? The Ranger 22 is a relatively stiff boat, one that I hope I can sail in the 20+ that we get down here occassionally, sometimes with little warning. I will be sailing single or shorthanded most of the time, except when racing, when I hope to find enough people to form a proper crew. I weigh close to 300 lbs if that matters in your comments. I am wondering if the 236FK is more than normally tender, as a classified ad I can find for the boat says that it is a good "light and medium air racing boat". Not sure what they were trying to say there...

Any help you can provide would be greatly appreciated.

Fair winds,

Kevin

The Ranger 22 has a cast iron keel, and in general is far less boat than the Ranger 23. I owned, and would highly recommend a Ranger 23 for what you describe. I thought the 23 was a stiff, well behaved boat.... easy to race and solo.

[Gouvernail]

I am an experienced (3rd boat) but still crappy sailor. The desire to eat (vs starve) has moved me to North Texas, although I am actually enjoying here immensely. I sold my cruising cat when I left my previous coastal home.

So now I want a small, very cheap monohull boat for lake sailing. Price, my desire for a fixed keel, fairly fast boat, and what is currently on the market, have narrowed my choices to a Ranger 22 or a Mirage 236 FIN KEEL. I know these boats are not equivalent, but hey, I don't pick what people decide to sell. (The keel is in caps, because there are also daggerboard versions of this boat, which is not what I am considering.)

I can find a lot of comment on the Ranger 22, but almost none on the Mirage. I guess a relatively small number were made in Florida by Mirage Manufacturing, who has now gone to the dark side.

Can anyone comment on the sailing qualities of the Mirage 236FK? The Ranger 22 is a relatively stiff boat, one that I hope I can sail in the 20+ that we get down here occassionally, sometimes with little warning. I will be sailing single or shorthanded most of the time, except when racing, when I hope to find enough people to form a proper crew. I weigh close to 300 lbs if that matters in your comments. I am wondering if the 236FK is more than normally tender, as a classified ad I can find for the boat says that it is a good "light and medium air racing boat". Not sure what they were trying to say there...

Any help you can provide would be greatly appreciated.

Fair winds,

Kevin

JUst because it looks like a sailboat does not mean it is worth anything. In fact, both boats are probably worth negative $500 OR LESS.

Each of those boats has been offered around Austin in near junk condition. The Mirage is missing it's keel and the ranger was abandoned for ten years and beat to shit with many parts missing.

If you are attempting to find yourself a bargain by purchasing and refurbishing either one of those wrecks..

know this!!!

At least one previous owner of each boat has offered each boat to me FOR FREE and I turned down all those offers.

I love free shit. I love cheap shit. I love refurbishing stuff and making it work. I love removing keels, selling the lead and taking the dead hulls to the dump.

I Offered to take each of those boats off the hands of the onwers for $500 each.. That's right They had to pay me $500 cash or drive away without unhitching...and I stood there and made damn certain they went out of sight while the boats were still hitched to their vehicles.

I told each guy, if the boat showed up in my yard I would strip off recyclable parts, haul it to his house, tie it to something, haul the trailer out from under it as part of my fee, and drop the dead boat on the front lawn.

Trust me, I know more about fixing boats than you, am better equipped to do the task, have better facilities, virtually no overhead, and I pronounced the boats worthless. Do you honestly think you are enough smarter than I am and or better equipped or know where to get cheaper parts than I do?? You don't!! Don't be a fool. RUN!!!!!

I want to go on record here and now as a guy who said loud and clear

FUCK NO!!! YOU WILL SPEND TEN TIMES THER VALUE OF EITHER ONE JUST MAKING IT WORK! AND WHEN AND IF YOU FINISH, THE FULY REFURBISHED BOAT WILL STILL BE A MARGINAL SAILBOAT!!!

[Steam Flyer]

... ...
So now I want a small, very cheap monohull boat for lake sailing. Price, my desire for a fixed keel, fairly fast boat, and what is currently on the market, have narrowed my choices to a Ranger 22 or a Mirage 236 FIN KEEL. I know these boats are not equivalent, but hey, I don't pick what people decide to sell. (The keel is in caps, because there are also daggerboard versions of this boat, which is not what I am considering.)
... ...

Why do you want a fixed keel boat for lake sailing? It seems to me that a swing keel (or my own pref a ballasted daggerboard) allowing easier trailer would be far far more practical.

In any event, the Mirage is a faster, better-handling boat. They were rigged a couple of different ways, the one i sailed had a masthead rig. They were said to be "faster than a J-24" but I don't think that's true. They are also a lot more roomy than a Ranger 22.

A Ranger 22 is a throwback. The main reason to own one is that it reminds you of the good ol' days of pinched transoms and droopy booms. They are slow & awkward to sail, with a tiny awkward cabin. Very cool looking though IMHO (cuz I'm old enough to have sailed IOR pigs and have fond memories).

And if Gouv says the boats are trash, then it's a good bet that you will regret buying either. Keep looking, there are a lot of good boats out there that need a good home.

FB- Doug

[KevinMackenzie]

Why do I want a fixed keel? Everyone has their weirdnesses, mine is that I don't like centerboards and swing keels. I had a Cornado 15 and a Laser long ago (oops, I guess this will be my 5th boat not 3rd, forgot about the ones from my youth before I left sailing for a while). But I just think that fixed keels perform better, and there is no mechanical stuff to fight with. My first "bigger" boat had a 4' wing keel, and everyone told me how much pain it was going to be to launch, but I put a third wheel on the front of the trailer and dunked it with a tow rope, and never had a lick of trouble. So, it's a taste thing. You are right though, a swing or dagger would be much easier to launch. I know that most of the world thinks differently about this than I do. And thanks for the comments about the R22 and 236 sailing qualities. I am suprised about the "droopy boom" comment, I am not sure what that means. One of the reasons I like both boats is that they both have relatively high (above the cockpit) booms. So "droopy boom" must mean something else that I am not sailor enough to understand.

I looked at one Ranger 23. If there was one for sale somewhere near me, I would definitely consider it.

As to "Gouv"'s comments, wow, that is a classis SA post. :-) He must be thinking of different boats. The ones I am looking at now are very nice condition, well found boats. The MIrage is a fixed keel, and I suppose the keel could be missing. I have not progressed far enough down the purchasing path to have had the boat dived yet (it is in the water), but I will never buy a boat without seeing the bottom. And I would not buy a boat without a keel. But I would be suprised if this one did not have a keel. But thanks very much for the well intentioned warnings Gouvernail.

I look forward to more comments, and thank all of you for those that have been left so far.

Kevin

[Somebody Else]

For your area, I'd 2nd the Santana 20 vote.
Many around cheap.
Fun to race.

Dead-ass minimal cruising amenities (you can lie down down below; that's about it.)

I forgot to add:
The Ranger 22 was a blatant attempt to cash in on the success of the Santana 20.
Doesn't sail 1/2 as nice though.

[tq2000]

I don't know anything about the Ranger so I can't comment on that, but I have a Mirage 236 and really like the boat. I have the drop keel version, which is a little more tender than the fixed keel. While it is no sport boat, it's SA/Disp is still higher than most of it's contemporaries, and the boat can be a handful or a blast in higher winds, depending on your perspective. I singlehand mine all the time, even with the 150 up. Using a 105 would make it much more manageable in higher winds or single handing. The boat is quite beamy and carries the beam well aft. This gives you an incredibly comfortable cockpit for a 23' boat, which is really nice for daysailing. Owning this and a J24, I can tell you without a doubt the J is faster on most points of sail, and is easier to manage and singlehand. The one time where the Mirage is going to be faster than the J, is a reach in 15-20 knots. In that range, the huge MH spin on the Mirage will power it past the J. On a standard W/L, the J is the faster boat. If you are not going to race it, the Mirage makes a great daysailer. If you are thinking about racing, I would look at a J24 instead.

[Flying Fish]

There is a very nice Santana 20 for sale on e-bay which I would buy before I was given either of the two boats you are considering.

But at 300 pounds I would consider something a little larger.

[Vernon Green]

That is a sweet santana 20, I spoke to the original poster a few months ago about getting a 20. I didn't realize it was him posting at first but since have talked to him.
He has really done his research and has come to the conclusion that the 20 isn't the best boat for him for several reasons.
It sounds like the boats he is looking at are in good shape. Based on what he says I would think the mirage would work better for him.

[Steam Flyer]

Why do I want a fixed keel? Everyone has their weirdnesses, mine is that I don't like centerboards and swing keels. I had a Cornado 15 and a Laser long ago (oops, I guess this will be my 5th boat not 3rd, forgot about the ones from my youth before I left sailing for a while). But I just think that fixed keels perform better, and there is no mechanical stuff to fight with. My first "bigger" boat had a 4' wing keel, and everyone told me how much pain it was going to be to launch, but I put a third wheel on the front of the trailer and dunked it with a tow rope, and never had a lick of trouble. So, it's a taste thing. You are right though, a swing or dagger would be much easier to launch.

You're right, everybody has their own ideas about what's "best." IMHO it's easier to have a dry-sailed boat, either at a club with a good hoist at a deep bulwark, or some kind of swing/lift keel to make ramp launching practical. The nice thing about the latter is that you can also take the boat lots of places where there are not hoists.

I've owned big keelboats, small keelboats, and 2 different kinds of lift/swing keel smallish racer-cruisers. It's a matter of what you think is "too much trouble." My boats splash & sail in about 15 minutes or less, generally with a beer in one hand. I'm spoiled. The process you describe would be far too much trouble for me, more trouble IMHO than hauling the boat at a yard and hiring somebody else to do the bottom (while I work extra to pay for it).

I know that most of the world thinks differently about this than I do. And thanks for the comments about the R22 and 236 sailing qualities. I am suprised about the "droopy boom" comment, I am not sure what that means. One of the reasons I like both boats is that they both have relatively high (above the cockpit) booms. So "droopy boom" must mean something else that I am not sailor enough to understand.

Nah, it's pretty straightforward... a ratings thing from the good (ie bad) old days. Sail area was figured with a right angle at the mainsail tack, so many boats fixed the gooseneck up high and had the foot of the main angled downward... a droopy look which I never liked (it's just my opinion but I strongly doubt the speed gain was more than a few tenths of a second over a whole race).

I looked at one Ranger 23. If there was one for sale somewhere near me, I would definitely consider it.

There you go, the R23 is a good all-round type boat. Worth going some distance for IMHO and they are plentiful enough that you probably wouldn't have to go all that far. Again, a matter of taste... I have driven across multiple states several times for boats that were worth having.

As to "Gouv"'s comments, wow, that is a classis SA post. :-) He must be thinking of different boats. The ones I am looking at now are very nice condition, well found boats. The MIrage is a fixed keel, and I suppose the keel could be missing. I have not progressed far enough down the purchasing path to have had the boat dived yet (it is in the water), but I will never buy a boat without seeing the bottom. And I would not buy a boat without a keel. But I would be suprised if this one did not have a keel. But thanks very much for the well intentioned warnings Gouvernail.

I look forward to more comments, and thank all of you for those that have been left so far.

Kevin

It'd be worth while to make sure that it's not the boat Gouv is talking about. I bet if you PM'd him, he could pin it down.

It sounds like the Mirage 236 would be a better fit for what you want.

FB- Doug

[RoughWater]

Clearly the Ranger 22 was the hope of Ranger Yachts for a successful one-design boat. It missed the mark, not on looks, but on performance. Looking at the specs compared to it's competition at the time shows that Gary Mull should have put in more waterline length and more sail area. That high positioned boom should give you a clue... That mainsail needed another 20 sq. ft. and even in the mid 1970s boats were getting shorter on the ends. Still a very pretty boat. It looks like Mull's other boats, the Ranger 28 and the 26Mk2 as much as it looks like a Santana 20. Those California designers all hung out together.

[Nice!]

The best thing to do is go down to the local sailing club on race night and see what the most popular boat is. Then get one of those. Our local lake has a fleet of SJ21s, which are dumpy little boats. But 12 of them on the start line is pretty damn awesome racing.

[U20guy2]

the Ranger 23 is highly respected in SF Bay. In the ideal conditions they have done well in the large pursuit races around the Bay. Great little boat. The Mirage I know nothing other than I do like their more modern looks.

The Ranger 22 would not be on my list.

[bigjohn]

Boat choice is so subjective.I can say this...I own a little Mirage 5.5 swing keel...I got it cheap,I have invested very little ...and I sail it all the time.I seem to be out more than those "bigger" boats with all the $ hanging off of them .Mine seems to be pretty dern solid.Had her out in the gusts yesterday with a grin ear to ear...I call that a win .I sail in Denton on lake "Ray"just north of you.
peace
-big john

[Remodel]

Interesting perspectives. All I can add is that the R22 is an awesome boat in light air. Other than that, I can't see buying either of these boats. Looking at SailTexas, I see a number of boats for decent prices - a Wavelength 24 chief among them. There are a couple of Holder 20s for sale also.

Just my $.02, which is probably worth less than that...

[U20guy2]

Guessing ultra dirt cheap and available. Which case you might as well add the Catalina 22 to your shopping list. You can pick them up for nearly free and lake sail it to your hearts content for years with nearly zero added cost.

[Ellis]

Guessing ultra dirt cheap and available. Which case you might as well add the Catalina 22 to your shopping list. You can pick them up for nearly free and lake sail it to your hearts content for years with nearly zero added cost.

Catalina 22's a great boats for what they are. Lots of available inexpensive parts and they have a great owner's association.

[azexploder]

Mirage 236 group is on http://groups.yahoo....rageownersclub/

We are collecting data and pics for this boat.

[kmcfast]

Venture 21 is what u need...
http://groups.yahoo....venture21class/

[SemiSalt]

An old thread revived.

Someone should mention the Cal 22. There! I did.

[dacapo]

Interesting perspectives. All I can add is that the R22 is an awesome boat in light air. and no chop.....

Just my $.02, which is probably worth less than that...

fixed...slightly. Any chop and the R22 stops dead in its track

[boomer]

Old thread, eh...

I've had a few Ranger 23's, still have a tall mast version we've had for 16 years.

The Ranger 23 sails circles around the Ranger 22, and does a horizon job on them.

I was really surprised how slow the Ranger 22's are comparatively.... I wouldn't recommend one.

[Speng]

I'm not sure if it's the same kind of Mirage but a sailmaker from Columbia SC named Joey Waters has one (so you know where to get sail from) and he wins a lot of regattas with it. He's probably a better sailor than you so YMMV. He used to race it with a tiny girl as crew. I doubt very seriously that it's faster than a J24 but IIRC it had decent looks.

[HWP]

Capri 22, standard rig, fin keel, Mark I version.

'nuff said.

[GER308]

Mirage 236 is a sentimental favorite of mine. When I was 16 I sailed on one with a friend in So Cal. My friend then sailed the boat singlehanded LA to Peru- doublehanded back. We did extend the lift keel about 1 foot and adding a bit of lead. Shortly after he sailed to Hawaii with his girlfriend.
I lived on the boat for 2 months in Hanalei River in 88 after getting out of the Army. He sank the boat during a race off Oahu when he capsized and the lift keel fell out. The securing mechanism failed but really not the boat s fault.

Some of the Hawaii Anarchists may remember. Lots of storys.

[Fasterdamnit]

I'm not sure if it's the same kind of Mirage but a sailmaker from Columbia SC named Joey Waters has one (so you know where to get sail from) and he wins a lot of regattas with it. He's probably a better sailor than you so YMMV. He used to race it with a tiny girl as crew. I doubt very seriously that it's faster than a J24 but IIRC it had decent looks.

I am pretty sure that boat is a good deal lighter than factory. With that said, Joey is one hell of a sailor.

[usa 917]

Ranger 22s r slow and tender.

[hobot]

What about the Wilderness 21?

http://forums.sailin...?showtopic=8247

[movable ballast]

Capri 22, standard rig, fin keel, Mark I version.

'nuff said.

2nd the MK1 capri 22. Better boat than all others mentioned.

[MisterMoon]

I'm not sure if it's the same kind of Mirage but a sailmaker from Columbia SC named Joey Waters has one (so you know where to get sail from) and he wins a lot of regattas with it. He's probably a better sailor than you so YMMV. He used to race it with a tiny girl as crew. I doubt very seriously that it's faster than a J24 but IIRC it had decent looks.

I am pretty sure that boat is a good deal lighter than factory. With that said, Joey is one hell of a sailor.

Is this the boat?

Nice price or crack pipe? http://columbia.crai...3548075657.html

[GMiller]

That is a mirage 5.5.

[MisterMoon]

That is a mirage 5.5.

I know. The question was if this was the boat that was mentioned in the quoted text above my message. Sounds like it might be and I'm thinking about going to look at it.

[kmcfast]

M 5.5 brochure.
But for cheap go fast, 7' cockpit and retracting keel, light weight a 68-70 Venture 21 is a good choice...

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