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#2601 Tornado-Cat

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Posted 04 December 2011 - 09:50 PM

http://www.americasc...lter=designteam


Bring Back AC Nationality Rules!

#2602 maxmini

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Posted 04 December 2011 - 10:55 PM



http://www.americasc...lter=designteam


Bring Back AC Nationality Rules!

TC why are you so against KIWI sailors ? Do you realize if they truly had Nationality rules you would have between 10 and 15 Kiwi sailors with jobs and the rest on unemploylent . The GNP of New Zeland would be cunt in half LOL. Strict Nationality rules is the LAST thing those boys want to see.

#2603 Tornado-Cat

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Posted 04 December 2011 - 11:25 PM



http://www.americasc...lter=designteam


Bring Back AC Nationality Rules!

TC why are you so against KIWI sailors ? Do you realize if they truly had Nationality rules you would have between 10 and 15 Kiwi sailors with jobs and the rest on unemploylent . The GNP of New Zeland would be cunt in half LOL. Strict Nationality rules is the LAST thing those boys want to see.


Maxmini, it is more of a joke as I cut and pasted TK signature.:) I am not really in the subject as I mentioned the design team, not the sailors, just to remind that there a few good architects in different countries.
I do understand your point very well though.

More seriously I agree with a lot here regarding AC nationality rules and real CIC for a couple of reasons, one being a more country vs country Cup which would have more appeal on TV.
I generally avoid discussing the subject as it go be an endless discussion...

#2604 maxmini

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Posted 04 December 2011 - 11:53 PM




http://www.americasc...lter=designteam


Bring Back AC Nationality Rules!

TC why are you so against KIWI sailors ? Do you realize if they truly had Nationality rules you would have between 10 and 15 Kiwi sailors with jobs and the rest on unemploylent . The GNP of New Zeland would be cut in half LOL. Strict Nationality rules is the LAST thing those boys want to see.


Maxmini, it is more of a joke as I cut and pasted TK signature.:) I am not really in the subject as I mentioned the design team, not the sailors, just to remind that there a few good architects in different countries.
I do understand your point very well though.

More seriously I agree with a lot here regarding AC nationality rules and real CIC for a couple of reasons, one being a more country vs country Cup which would have more appeal on TV.
I generally avoid discussing the subject as it go be an endless discussion...



I also would love to see it more of a national team as it would help as far as building a fan base . Just not sure of how it could be accomplished and enforced .

#2605 Tornado-Cat

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Posted 05 December 2011 - 03:15 AM





http://www.americasc...lter=designteam


Bring Back AC Nationality Rules!

TC why are you so against KIWI sailors ? Do you realize if they truly had Nationality rules you would have between 10 and 15 Kiwi sailors with jobs and the rest on unemploylent . The GNP of New Zeland would be cut in half LOL. Strict Nationality rules is the LAST thing those boys want to see.


Maxmini, it is more of a joke as I cut and pasted TK signature.:) I am not really in the subject as I mentioned the design team, not the sailors, just to remind that there a few good architects in different countries.
I do understand your point very well though.

More seriously I agree with a lot here regarding AC nationality rules and real CIC for a couple of reasons, one being a more country vs country Cup which would have more appeal on TV.
I generally avoid discussing the subject as it go be an endless discussion...



I also would love to see it more of a national team as it would help as far as building a fan base . Just not sure of how it could be accomplished and enforced .


We agree. As for the enforcement, let's keep it simple: 10 years with the same passport. That would prevent some from going to one team to another.

#2606 KiwiJoker

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Posted 05 December 2011 - 03:47 AM


In case this list of ETNZ designer profiles is new. I think that it is, at least to their AC.com space?

http://www.americasc...lter=designteam


No, not new. That designer list has been there since that site and the Blog site went live earlier this year. Prior to that it was on the emiratesteamnz.com site.


The list on the site in April this year had 29 names on it, including Magnus Clarke, who is absent from the current list. What did I miss? That makes seven new names on board.

#2607 Te Kooti

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Posted 05 December 2011 - 04:13 AM

At 5.45 p.m. Tuesday (NZ time) there will be a ceremony on the plaza next to TNZ to commemorate the 10th anniversary of Peter Blake's death. At the Viaduct.

And launch Pippa's book about Blakey.

KJ ... will you be there?

I saw PIppa's book today = $50 ... ugh!

But Fish's "Absorbing Interest" is now on special

$350 NZD !!!!!!!!!

Bloody 'ell mate!

#2608 ~Stingray~

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Posted 05 December 2011 - 04:19 AM

The new Designers list is in one place now instead of, as had been the case for a time, two different places with two different lists. It suggests that ETNZ 'capitulated' in the end - but perhaps, and hopefully, in a mutually agreeable enough way.

LR is still barebones and they publish apparently no content in the AC website space; maybe they haven't even staffed up yet.

Was a little worried they would 'cooperate' in shunning any presence at AC.com but since ETNZ is publishing material to there now, it seems unlikely to become an issue.

It's surprising how much Prada/Luna Rossa gear from previous campaigns still gets around on Amazon and such; shoes go for E600 sometimes. So maybe the more commercial side of things have a more arms-length future in that respect.

#2609 ~Stingray~

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Posted 05 December 2011 - 04:22 AM

TK, are the Auckland dock workers still on strike? Is ETNZ's AC45 stuck on a ship?

#2610 Tony-F18

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Posted 05 December 2011 - 08:42 AM

http://www.americasc...lter=designteam

The list on the site in April this year had 29 names on it, including Magnus Clarke, who is absent from the current list. What did I miss? That makes seven new names on board.

Some new names on the design team are also part of the sailing team, like Ashby and a couple others.

#2611 kiwi_jon

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Posted 05 December 2011 - 10:12 AM

TK, are the Auckland dock workers still on strike? Is ETNZ's AC45 stuck on a ship?


Dock workers are back to work tomorrow but I doubt that TNZ's AC45's are close to arriving yet.

#2612 blunted

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Posted 05 December 2011 - 12:57 PM


http://www.americasc...lter=designteam

The list on the site in April this year had 29 names on it, including Magnus Clarke, who is absent from the current list. What did I miss? That makes seven new names on board.

Some new names on the design team are also part of the sailing team, like Ashby and a couple others.


They shit canned me from both sailing and design teams, bc I wasn't "specialized enough". That's why. Not the end of the world for me, but they really dicked around my family getting us all dialed up to move to NZ, then pulled the plug at the last minute. Ah well, I have other cool projects to work on with people I can actually trust.

End of rant.

#2613 RMK

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Posted 05 December 2011 - 04:51 PM



http://www.americasc...lter=designteam

The list on the site in April this year had 29 names on it, including Magnus Clarke, who is absent from the current list. What did I miss? That makes seven new names on board.

Some new names on the design team are also part of the sailing team, like Ashby and a couple others.


They shit canned me from both sailing and design teams, bc I wasn't "specialized enough". That's why. Not the end of the world for me, but they really dicked around my family getting us all dialed up to move to NZ, then pulled the plug at the last minute. Ah well, I have other cool projects to work on with people I can actually trust.

End of rant.


That sucks, sorry to hear it. Are you able to join another team (if you were so inclined) or are you locked out of AC 34?

#2614 Te Kooti

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Posted 06 December 2011 - 02:05 AM

TK, are the Auckland dock workers still on strike? Is ETNZ's AC45 stuck on a ship?


I am on my way to the Viaduct and will find out.

The AC45 was not there yesterday.

Just the SL33 - in a shed with the wing stored on its edge.

#2615 ~Stingray~

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Posted 06 December 2011 - 02:28 AM

In another sharp left turn to Fremantle, and in some Now For Something Completely Different news....



#2616 ~Stingray~

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Posted 06 December 2011 - 03:53 PM

Peter Rusch at AC.com

Blake - A Cup Hero Remembered
http://www.americasc...ed-10-years-on/

#2617 KiwiJoker

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Posted 06 December 2011 - 10:32 PM

Peter Rusch at AC.com

Blake - A Cup Hero Remembered
http://www.americasc...ed-10-years-on/


Nice to see Peter's tribute.

Also, a long piece in the NZ Herald, The night they killed a Kiwi hero, about Blake and the Blake Trust.

Plus a report on the Viaduct ceremony and the announcement of the Blake Trust's latest project, Blake's spirit lives on in Kermadec adventure.

Hopefully a report soon from Te Kooti.

#2618 Xlot

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Posted 06 December 2011 - 11:13 PM

S-W. Straight boards (canting?) on the SL-33, hints at a second wing coming soon.

#2619 P Flados

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Posted 07 December 2011 - 02:06 AM

I wasn't "specialized enough".


AC is neat with the new boats, but the total disconnect with any form of sailing I have ever had contact with can get obnoxious.

Long live the innovative high tech sailing classes I can relate to (Moth, A Class, C Class, et. al.).

Oh-well about the class where they expect money to buy a huge team to pound out performance from narrow function worker drones.

Ok, that was probably not called for, but I needed a quick vent.

#2620 Te Kooti

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Posted 07 December 2011 - 03:48 AM

Hopefully a report soon from Te Kooti.


I got down there at about 5.15. Announced starting time was 5.45 p.m. But, by then, just me and some reporters and TV types.

They got underway at 1810 hours. Ross Blackman was MC. Lovely man and very competent. He and Blakey co-founded TNZ. Simon Gundry spoke next (Ceramco, Lion NZ), then Glen Sowry (looking older). Chris Mace (Blake Trust) was next. Then Don Robertson who was with Blakey when the murder occurred. Next up was the Gov-General - half his speeech was in Maori. Finally Pippa.

There were a lot of men in black suits and women in high heels.

Being in shorts + sandals I felt a bit under-dressed.

Both Blake children were there. With the rest of their whanau.

Simon's speech was beautifully crafted. Same with Blackman - who pointed to the water and said we were back at the edge (of the Viaduct; the Watemata) where Blake launched all his adventures.

Pippa said the murder seemed like yesterday and everyone recalled the huge tribute in the Domain. Pippa's book is in Auckland stores. $50 ... ouch!

Pippa has always looked a bit haunted and is probably far too busy. But she has plenty of the British stiff-upper-lip and has a new man in her life.

Former PM Helen Clark and Minister of Sport Trevor Mallard were at the Viaduct (they had helped launch the Blake trust).

Also present was Tony Blake (who looks and speaks like his brother).

The Gov-General (ch-chair of the Blake Trust) announced an expedition to the Kermadecs. For young people. I am already telling Maori friends about it. In 2012. On the RNZN Canterbury. I have a couple of whanau members who should be on this.

The ceremony was formal but moving. About right! And, in contrast to the wet morning, it was sunny by 6 p.m.

Today I stuck my nose into TNZ and saw two very natty SL33s being readied for racing. They have very creative names. "Number 1" and "Number 2". Because I am a loyal New Zealander I am not saying anything about the daggerboards. Except they look wild.

Some swift 2-boat testing will soon be underway and I am expecting to hear Italian in the Portside cafe.

Stinger, regarding the waterfront strike. It is bothering a lot of people but, at present, only involves the Maersk "southern star" route (Sth Asia). There is no sign of the AC45 but it will soon arrive.

#2621 Te Kooti

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Posted 07 December 2011 - 03:56 AM

S-W. Straight boards (canting?) on the SL-33, hints at a second wing coming soon.




Err ... um ... they ain't straight!

#2622 ncs

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Posted 07 December 2011 - 03:20 PM

Err ... um ... they ain't straight!

This is incorrect.

The foils appear straight when viewed athwartships from 10m with one eye closed. ;P

#2623 Xlot

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Posted 07 December 2011 - 04:04 PM

Today I stuck my nose into TNZ and saw two very natty SL33s being readied for racing. They have very creative names. "Number 1" and "Number 2". Because I am a loyal New Zealander I am not saying anything about the daggerboards. Except they look wild.




Err ... um ... they ain't straight!

This is incorrect.

The foils appear straight when viewed athwartships from 10m with one eye closed. ;P


Fine bunch of jokers we've got there, folks <_< At least, can you confirm No.1&2 are in addition to the previous two ETNZ boats?

Daggerboards on the winged SL-33 are definitely different from the standard C-boards, and the starboard one looks much wider!!

#2624 ~Stingray~

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Posted 07 December 2011 - 04:51 PM

ETNZ web site case closed.

Jury doc
http://www.cupinfo.c...n015-120611.pdf

#2625 ~Stingray~

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Posted 07 December 2011 - 06:01 PM

Could be a re-post, but anyway:
from http://www.emiratesteamnz.com/#!2011/12/welcome-return-of-a-little-sunburn

So now we have a big red wing. Great. But is it fast? Does it perform as we predicted? Are the loads as expected and are we sailing the same modes as the VPP says we should? Real life is great but how can you know if you are better with nothing to compare to?

We need another wing… maybe we won’t need to wait too long.

#2626 Te Kooti

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Posted 08 December 2011 - 10:42 PM

About 22 degrees in Auckland and nice breeze.



#2627 davidprobable

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Posted 09 December 2011 - 03:16 PM



http://www.americasc...lter=designteam

The list on the site in April this year had 29 names on it, including Magnus Clarke, who is absent from the current list. What did I miss? That makes seven new names on board.

Some new names on the design team are also part of the sailing team, like Ashby and a couple others.


They shit canned me from both sailing and design teams, bc I wasn't "specialized enough". That's why. Not the end of the world for me, but they really dicked around my family getting us all dialed up to move to NZ, then pulled the plug at the last minute. Ah well, I have other cool projects to work on with people I can actually trust.

End of rant.


you have now experienced the coldness of participation in the business of reality show entertainment. You would have been treated better if you were involved in an actual sporting event with Corinthian overtones. Sorry to hear this Magnus as it would have been a fine experience for your family.

#2628 kiwi_jon

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Posted 12 December 2011 - 10:55 PM

Well, 2011 was a really big year for the team

Posted Image

Well it wasn’t all work … on board CAMPER for the race to Fiji

Grant Dalton looks back on a busy year….

I guess this can be a Christmas blog. That means I reflect on the year – the good the bad and the ugly.

Not so sure about the ugly or even the bad; there hasn’t really been too much.

Probably I should start right at the beginning of the year because at that stage I didn’t think we were going to make it. We have enough money to stay afloat till March, courtesy of Matteo de Nora and Stephen Tindall but that was it. I was hunting sponsors hard. Have a look around, it’s tough out there and the America’s Cup is way too expensive.

When you add those two together the prospects for a commercial team surviving were slim. Right now we are not seeing another commercial team – except perhaps Team Energy.

The tide turned when Emirates reconfirmed and, although most people think that was always going to happen, in fact pre Christmas they looked like they were gone. Prior to their confirming our longest continuous sponsor,Toyota, had also confirmed. But even with these two, plus Government money, we were a long, long way from making it. However from then, it was a bit of a whirlwind of travel, presentations and hoping. Omega came next, again a long time sponsor,then a critical call, Nespresso came in, Camper followed and armed with these sponsors we called it on.

We still had a lot of money to raise but by now, Matteo and Stephen were standing by. More recently both the Luna Rossa deal and a still to be announced partner have made things a lot more comfortable.

I guess the bad was/is the exchange rate. Yes we hedge but only so much. Most of our money comes in Euros but is paid out in NZ$. Compared to the last campaign we need 15% more just to be in the same place – impossible in this market you would think so but in fact we now have this money.

While on the bad the cost of the America’s Cup. Statements about ‘ “cost reduction” where just that, statements. In fact it’s more expensive and no real cost control measures exist. If the sport is to survive, and I include Volvo as well, someone has to get serious about this. To date the Cup has four teams, including us, the other three are funded by billionaires, which is hardly a good model.

And so the racing for the year. Leading the AC45 World Series, second in the Volvo so far and a third in the X40 season even with multiple crew changes. That’s not bad considering that all that was happening last Christmas was the Volvo boat build. Add to that the two SL33 cats which now both have new wings and a AC72 that is in full build now.

Throughout the year while the sailing has been going on the designers have been working on the new boat. By mid-2012 we will get to see their creation. Any and the shore team have also totally refitted our base, as well as run all the operations on the ground here in New Zealand.

So has it been a good year. No, it has been a great year, amazing actually. Now and again I push back in my office chair and say to myself, “can you believe where we have got to; really we shouldn’t exist”.

http://etnzblog.com/#!2011/12/well-that-was-a-big-big-year

#2629 ~Stingray~

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Posted 12 December 2011 - 11:52 PM

Very upbeat assessment, and a good read! Let's hope next year is even better.

#2630 Te Kooti

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Posted 13 December 2011 - 02:03 AM

With a new partner (sponsor) arriving, ETNZ will have to call back the sign-writers.

These days the ETNZ base looks clean and finished. Sign writers came in before the rugby world cup and put the sponsor names up over doors facing the Viaduct. Despite having put in different amounts of $$$, with the exception of Emirates (who get naming rights) they all get more or less equal treatment.

As well, the history timeline on the wall facing the karanga plaza gets plenty of attention from visitors and citizens of Auckland.

Just like seating last minute arrivals at a dinner party, if another sponsor emerges it will take a bit of work to reorganize the sign-writing - on sheds and boats.

The weather in Auckland is damp and blustery. Even so, the SL33's look ready to go.



#2631 RMK

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Posted 13 December 2011 - 03:48 AM

Grant Dalton
...
Probably I should start right at the beginning of the year because at that stage I didn’t think we were going to make it. We have enough money to stay afloat till March, courtesy of Matteo de Nora and Stephen Tindall but that was it. I was hunting sponsors hard. Have a look around, it’s tough out there and the America’s Cup is way too expensive.

When you add those two together the prospects for a commercial team surviving were slim. Right now we are not seeing another commercial team – except perhaps Team Energy.

The tide turned when Emirates reconfirmed and, although most people think that was always going to happen, in fact pre Christmas they looked like they were gone. Prior to their confirming our longest continuous sponsor,Toyota, had also confirmed. But even with these two, plus Government money, we were a long, long way from making it. However from then, it was a bit of a whirlwind of travel, presentations and hoping. Omega came next, again a long time sponsor,then a critical call, Nespresso came in, Camper followed and armed with these sponsors we called it on.

We still had a lot of money to raise but by now, Matteo and Stephen were standing by. More recently both the Luna Rossa deal and a still to be announced partner have made things a lot more comfortable.

I guess the bad was/is the exchange rate. Yes we hedge but only so much. Most of our money comes in Euros but is paid out in NZ$. Compared to the last campaign we need 15% more just to be in the same place – impossible in this market you would think so but in fact we now have this money.

While on the bad the cost of the America’s Cup. Statements about ‘ “cost reduction” where just that, statements. In fact it’s more expensive and no real cost control measures exist. If the sport is to survive, and I include Volvo as well, someone has to get serious about this. To date the Cup has four teams, including us, the other three are funded by billionaires, which is hardly a good model.

And ...

http://etnzblog.com/#!2011/12/well-that-was-a-big-big-year


I assume Matteo de Nora and Stephen Tindall are not billionaires? Certainly millionaires but who's counting ;)

#2632 eric e

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Posted 13 December 2011 - 07:34 AM

the same newspaper can't even seem to agree with itself as to his net worth...


Swiss-Italian millionaire Matteo de Nora watched in horror as Team New Zealand sailors desperately bailed water from NZL-82 during the 2003 America's Cup challenge against Alinghi.
http://www.nzherald....jectid=10730515

Dalton's quest to find the money reads like a combination of Who's Who and the world's corporate directories. First, Stephen Tindall, of the Warehouse, Italian billionaire Matteo de Nora and unnamed others kept Team New Zealand financially afloat. That was during the dark days when Oracle and former Cup holder Alinghi were in the midst of their tedious, extended legal action - solved only last year in a giant multi-hull contest between the two syndicates, which Oracle won.

The court action covered so quickly in that last paragraph took nearly three years and Tindall, de Nora and others drip-fed money into Team NZ at a time when other syndicates were withering; starved of funds and competition. Meanwhile, fans and sponsors turned away in their droves from a sports event that became a barely understandable courtroom drama in the US; provoking more "rich boys' toys" taunts that some like to throw at the Cup.

"In Matteo's case, it wasn't a drip-feed; more like a river," said Dalton. "He has been instrumental in helping this team survive. He appeals to ideals like loyalty, trust and reliability - all those things that Kiwis like.

"Stephen has been great too; one of our most amazing supporters."


http://www.nzherald....jectid=10721223

#2633 ncs

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Posted 13 December 2011 - 07:35 AM

I assume Matteo de Nora and Stephen Tindall are not billionaires? Certainly millionaires but who's counting ;)

Two billionaires? I don't think so.

Here is a slightly dated article on some NZ B-boys for perspective.

http://liberation.typepad.com/liberation/2010/09/inequality-in-nz-6-nbrs-2010-rich-list.html

One notable mention in that article donated $1M for a daysail on NZ92 a few years back. This man was not Sir Stephen. Instead, this man is/was a good mate of BB, which I found curious at the time. Knowing this, certain things were hidden from him during his ride.

Sr. De Nora has probably invested a greater percentage of his net worth into ETNZ than LE has invested in OR. He kept the team alive.

#2634 Rennmaus

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Posted 14 December 2011 - 09:57 PM

Dec/Jan issue is out: http://www.ocean-rac...8coqg22ney30z13

AC72 article on pages 36f, AC45 pages 38f, Dean Barker feature on pages 40f, Mark Turner on 42f, BP on the following pages and a lot of other superb stuff all over the mag.

#2635 kiwi_jon

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Posted 15 December 2011 - 11:29 AM

We never stop climbing

Posted Image

Coach Rod Davis blogs on a pretty good year…

The last regatta for the year has come to an end. It has been a busy year for the Emirates Team New Zealand racing programme. And a pretty good one.

Learning how to race cats has been steep one to climb and, although we have not reached the peak (you never stop climbing), we have established ourselves as a formidable team when it comes to racing multihulls.

We are leading the America’s Cup World Series after three regattas and we were third in the Extreme Sailing Series of nine regattas while up-skilling crews and giving Adam Beashel “air-time” skippering along the way. All that in our first year out of monohulls. Not bad going, really. Still, there is a long way to go to reach the required level.

Next year will be the tug-of-war between developing and testing the AC72 and developing our racing capabilities. The sailing team is caught in the middle, as each program requires their time. I am not in the middle at all, I know the sailors we are up against very well.

I hear the pitch for less racing and more testing: “The fastest boat will win the America’s Cup”. It is a way to “steal” time out of the racing program and deposit it into on-the-water testing.

History shows the fastest boat does win. Not that the next America’s Cup can draw on the past. The next Cup will be unlike any other. The comment that stops them dead in water: “True only if you are the only team with the fastest boat. We won’t be. We can’t be.”

If two boats have equal potential, the next America’s Cup will be decided by who races their boat better. One team is guaranteed to have a boat equal to our rocket, even if no one else does. That’s our old foe – and technology partner – Luna Rossa.

The relationship with Prada and Emirates Team New Zealand should produce the fastest AC72s. Then we will have deal to each other on the race course. The mother of all battles.

I intend to be ready to do just that. Deal to them.

COACH

http://etnzblog.com/#!2011/12/we-never-stop-climbing

#2636 Te Kooti

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Posted 16 December 2011 - 12:50 AM

The fact Stephen Tindall was one of the TNZ rescuers is a bit interesting.

Both Matteo de Nora and Tindall are staunch kiwis with a high level of patriotism.

For Matteo, Aotearoa is his adopted country.

Tindall is the head honcho of the Warehouse big-box store chain that got rich by selling cheap stuff from China.

Unlike rich but unscrupulous kiwis (eg. Michael Fay, South Canterbury Finance, Bridgecorp) Tindall has a social conscience.

In addition, he is very close to former Prime Minister Helen Clark (now head of UNDP).

When Helen needed to watch Cup races, she went out on Tindall's boat.

In general, the pre-GD era TNZ was quite close to the Labour government. Hence, Helen Clark and Minister of Sport Trevor Mallard would often show up at TNZ events (and were at the recent Blake memorial on the karanga plaza at the Viaduct).

Both very much liked the David and Goliath posture of TNZ.

Tindall helped found KEA - an expatriate network (Kiwi Expatriates Abroad) and does other things intended to strengthen the position of NZ in global arenas.

I do not much like the Warehouse (and Canadian Tire - its Canadian equivalent - or Target - the US version). However, by supporting TNZ Tindall comes across as a special kind of New Zealander.

Of course, Matteo's reasons for embracing New Zealand are another story.

#2637 Te Kooti

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Posted 16 December 2011 - 08:20 AM

SL33 No 1 and No 2 finally got underway today.

It was good to see the forecourt crowded with so many sailors.

Both boats have red wings. Although one looks taller, leaner and meaner than the other.

This two-boat programme will involve a lot of sailing and an enormous data-collection process.

The intent is to build an AC72 wing capable of staying together and going fast.

Today both crews learned valuable lessons and wings produced surprises.

If Luna Rossa do not show up soon they will miss some of the fun.

Sometimes Grant looks like a tearaway. But he is very systematic about most things. And this SL33 programme is an example.

It was a good day. With no helicopter crashes.



#2638 seis

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Posted 16 December 2011 - 11:02 AM

http://www.sail-worl...-on-SL33s/91923

Posted Image


#2639 ~Stingray~

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Posted 16 December 2011 - 05:43 PM

Another good wing pic from there

Posted Image

#2640 GauchoGreg

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Posted 16 December 2011 - 07:20 PM

Nice looking wings. Definitely look more AC72ish than the 45s.

#2641 ~Stingray~

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Posted 16 December 2011 - 07:56 PM

Nice looking wings. Definitely look more AC72ish than the 45s.

Agreed. Hard to tell for sure, are they double-slotted?

#2642 GauchoGreg

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Posted 16 December 2011 - 07:58 PM


Nice looking wings. Definitely look more AC72ish than the 45s.

Agreed. Hard to tell for sure, are they double-slotted?



My guess is that they are going to keep the wings singular in color, and do everything they can to make it hard to tell what is really going on with the wings.

#2643 Te Kooti

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Posted 16 December 2011 - 08:46 PM

Another good wing pic from there

Posted Image


See the pile of containers to the right side of the picture (one of them is labelled Cosco).

These are stacked "art objects" in the karanga plaza - which stretches down to some "tidal steps."

At the base of those containers is a visitor area - with a model showing how the Wynyard Quarter will look when finished.

My mate Bob Harvey (former Mayor of Waitakere) is in charge of this development.

Which has some good features but is deeply flawed by having too many el-richo apartments - to go over the space currently used as a playground for children.

Auckland has a long history of atrocious city planning and for now I am hedging my bets concerning Wynyard.

But, for now it is good to see TNZ looking spic and span.

Moreover, I very much like the historical timeline on the TNZ compound wall overlooking the karanga plaza.

Many tourists read and photograph it.

Regarding the new wings they are, of course, primarily powered by taniwha.

#2644 Xlot

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Posted 16 December 2011 - 08:54 PM

Yes, the uniform color doesn't help. Note that the black vertical stripe isn't a slot but a flexible lip fairing for the plain flap on lead element trailing edge. The (single) slot itself is a bit aft, and barely visible.

Again, Patient Lady VI, 1985 vintage - except lead element chord is unusually short compared to main flap's, probably because it doesn't twist.

Intriguing, at control horn locations there are now rectangles on the main flap (they project a large shadow). Wonder what for.

#2645 ~Stingray~

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Posted 16 December 2011 - 09:04 PM

X, thanks for your observations, been waiting on that.

TK, you suggested one wing looked 'taller and meaner' than the other? They look identical to me from the pics so far. If so then the (current) testing could be more about comparing foils and such, than comparing wings.

#2646 Te Kooti

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Posted 16 December 2011 - 09:26 PM

X, thanks for your observations, been waiting on that.

TK, you suggested one wing looked 'taller and meaner' than the other? They look identical to me from the pics so far. If so then the (current) testing could be more about comparing foils and such, than comparing wings.


My camera is locked in the glove box of my car.

But, in Ben Gladwell's first picture - taken from Te Wero island, opposite TNZ - one wing is clearly taller than the other. It is quite noticeable.

However, I agree, they have a lot of work to do and foil testing will be part of it.

What I find interesting is the fact both the AC and VOR tried outlawing 2-boat testing - "to save money."

However, both Grant and Deano have made clear the fact "saving money" is mostly BS.

So, invoking an AC tradition going back to the early days of Big-Bad-Dennis, they have designed a conservative - but scientific - testing programme.

Their mega-computing power is part of the programme and, during recent forays into the kiwi conference circuit I have been touting TNZ as an exemplar of kiwi commitments to learning and innovation.

Someone recently labelled the sailors "show ponies" and, in my files, I have old emails from Marian wherein she says uncomplimentary things about them.

But, from hereon in, TNZ sailors will be busy. Maybe the long gap in AC45 activity is a good thing.

Against this is the fact NZ has been having some shit weather. For example, in the last few days there have been floods in Nelson and washouts elsewhere.

But, as Chairman Mao was prone to say, "we live in interesting times."

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#2647 Te Kooti

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Posted 16 December 2011 - 09:53 PM

Here is Ray Davies talking about the SL33 programme (from the ETNZ blog):


We’re on the water for five to six hours a day. Test, test and test again. Sound boring. Not at all…. it’s the best office in the world. And the catamarans are seriously good fun to sail, even when we’re testing rather than racing.

Remember those old monohull America’s Cup class boats? We did a lot of testing in them, too. Long days. Day after day. They are big, heavy boats. There have been cases when crew have fallen asleep.

There’s no afternoon nap on the SL33s. They are fast and exciting, rather like a high performance dinghy. The sensation of speed is amazing. They are exciting even when testing five or six hours a day, five or six days a week. Looking back it was fun sailing the monohulls, too, but…

We have two SL33s to trial development concepts from the design team in the real world and for improving sailing team multihull skills. They are fitted with dozens of sensors that measure just about everything so we know almost instantly if a new design element as a beneficial effect on speed. Combined with a seat-of-your-pants dinghy style we feel pretty well covered.

There’s no arguing with the data from the sensors. Over the past few months, we have accumulated a massive amount of data in all sorts of sailing conditions.

We now have two wingsails in our 33s. These cats were designing for sailing in light airs on European alpine lakes – not in 30 knots in a nasty chop on the Hauraki Gulf. We have given them a real thrashing and they are holding up really well.



#2648 Xlot

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Posted 16 December 2011 - 10:28 PM

Intriguing, at control horn locations there are now rectangles on the main flap (they project a large shadow). Wonder what for.


Backstay rub guards?

#2649 coxcreek

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Posted 16 December 2011 - 10:30 PM

They've done what you would expect: one wing higher aspect ratio than the other - also, if the two 33's are parked at the same angle, one leading wing section (left) looks broader than the other, likewise the second element on the right rig. Would love to know their secret after test conclusions..

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#2650 eric e

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Posted 16 December 2011 - 11:33 PM

wonder if both wings have the same area

and they are just trying to work out the balance between the increased efficency of the taller wing vs. it's increased tippiness

would be something very good to have first hand knowledge of with respect to sanfran winds

also gives the wing builders a chance to test out minor layup differences on some disposable wings

looks like ths android device has no browser spll checa...damm

#2651 ncs

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Posted 17 December 2011 - 04:21 AM

Of course, Matteo's reasons for embracing New Zealand are another story.

It's the yachts. Chicks dig the yachts.

#2652 Monster Mash

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Posted 17 December 2011 - 05:10 AM

They've done what you would expect: one wing higher aspect ratio than the other - also, if the two 33's are parked at the same angle, one leading wing section (left) looks broader than the other, likewise the second element on the right rig. Would love to know their secret after test conclusions..



It looks like they may be experimenting with flow fences between each flap section,

#2653 RMK

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Posted 17 December 2011 - 04:19 PM


X, thanks for your observations, been waiting on that.

TK, you suggested one wing looked 'taller and meaner' than the other? They look identical to me from the pics so far. If so then the (current) testing could be more about comparing foils and such, than comparing wings.


My camera is locked in the glove box of my car.

But, in Ben Gladwell's first picture - taken from Te Wero island, opposite TNZ - one wing is clearly taller than the other. It is quite noticeable.

However, I agree, they have a lot of work to do and foil testing will be part of it.

What I find interesting is the fact both the AC and VOR tried outlawing 2-boat testing - "to save money."

However, both Grant and Deano have made clear the fact "saving money" is mostly BS.

So, invoking an AC tradition going back to the early days of Big-Bad-Dennis, they have designed a conservative - but scientific - testing programme.
...


SL-33’s using the same height wingsails - Ben Gladwell

This is the caption from the picture of both 33's being towed by the same rib. Maybe more then two wings?

#2654 Te Kooti

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Posted 17 December 2011 - 07:35 PM

SL-33's using the same height wingsails - Ben Gladwell

This is the caption from the picture of both 33's being towed by the same rib. Maybe more then two wings?



Different picture.

The one I was talking about had both boats tethered to the TNZ dock. Not being towed anywhere.

Photo was taken from Te Wer.

#2655 Tony-F18

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Posted 17 December 2011 - 08:54 PM

With all the current high precision sensors around today does make you wonder how usefull two boat equipment really is.

#2656 ncs

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Posted 17 December 2011 - 09:40 PM

With all the current high precision sensors around today does make you wonder how useful two boat equipment really is.

Which high-precision sensors are you referring to? Those which measure unperturbed oncoming airflow for a 40m wingsail's span? Those which reliably measure Vs at 40kts from hulls that are not always immersed? I don't believe they exist but would be delighted to be proven wrong

OR and ETNZ have two boat testing programs. AR, with their single tri program, must know something the others do not.

#2657 Estar

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Posted 17 December 2011 - 10:10 PM

Those which reliably measure Vs at 40kts from hulls that are not always immersed?

Measuring velocity (both absolute and deltas) is relatively easy with high precision GPS.

Those which measure unperturbed oncoming airflow for a 40m wingsail's span?

Measuring absolute wind is more difficult (but not impossible with for example chase boats with towers), but repeatability and delta (which is the minimum you really need for performance testing) is not so bad - not as good as two boat (difference in wind sheer between days that otherwise look the same adds variability to a one-boat dataset) but usable.

As an aside, I remember talking to Tom Whidden about two boat testing and he said that two boat programs often end up with sails that are too flat because they are (usually) oriented for testing straight line speed rather than acceleration out of maneuvers (which is often critical).

With 2 - boats you do also always have the uncontrolled variable that the sailors are different. You can compensate by swapping crews but it does always adds variability to the data.

OR and ETNZ have two boat testing programs. AR, with their single tri program, must know something the others do not.

A decent part of the OR and TNZ 2 boat equation is crew training. They need to get at least one and a half (for bench strength) ac72 crews up to speed (OR is probably shooting for two ac72 crews). AR has the bigger platform and can use it plus the 45's for crew training/development - a different approach.

It would be interesting to see the analytical results vs actual results at the end. When this all started I was told that it would be extremely difficult to scale the results up from a 33'er to a 72, and that the 45's were right on the borderline for accurate scaling. OR and TNZ obviously feel they can get scalable results, while AR found the Tri loophole to give them a bigger platform, which should give better wing scalability but with the tri complication/variability.





#2658 ncs

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Posted 18 December 2011 - 05:54 AM


Those which reliably measure Vs at 40kts from hulls that are not always immersed?

Measuring velocity (both absolute and deltas) is relatively easy with high precision GPS.

Agreed but SOG is not Vs and includes a current vector that should be removed for an accurate VPP.

How do you propose to compensate for set and drift without Vs?

Measuring absolute wind is more difficult (but not impossible with for example chase boats with towers), but repeatability and delta (which is the minimum you really need for performance testing) is not so bad - not as good as two boat (difference in wind sheer between days that otherwise look the same adds variability to a one-boat dataset) but usable.

Usable only if several knots and degrees of uncertainty in true wind and boatspeed can be tolerated in a basic two input, one output VPP. Good luck discerning how lesser influences, such as wing camber or foil rake, affect Vs in that circumstance.

In the good old V5 days a single turn on a mainsheet winch handle could cause a one degree shift in apparent wind at the masthead due to change in upwash. Did the true wind really change? Probably not.

#2659 Estar

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Posted 18 December 2011 - 02:15 PM

Agreed but SOG is not Vs and includes a current vector that should be removed for an accurate VPP.

How do you propose to compensate for set and drift without Vs?


It would be nice to pick a testing location with minimal current :) But it is quite possible (for money) to build an accurate current map with a field of floating buoys.

Usable only if several knots and degrees of uncertainty in true wind and boatspeed can be tolerated in a basic two input, one output VPP.


Again, if you want to spend money for the best accuracy, measurement from off the boat to get clear air is best (as I mentioned previously - such as a support boat with a measurement tower).

And again, repeatability is more important and a touch easier than absolute accuracy.

Immediate 'repeatability' is what you get in two boat testing, not absolute data accuracy. So in your VPP (even with 2-boat) there is still variability introduced when you try to match up today's data set to prior days (if for instance the shear is different). And you have the crew/helm variability to add in.

So none of this (one boat or two-boats actually sailing) is ever possible to the accuracy of lab science or wind tunnels. There are important variations introduced in both techniques. Which get exacerbated in this AC by the scaling effects required to do two boat testing (because of the surrogate boat ban). Shooting for perfect is impossible and you just have to move ahead and be sure that you don't let 'perfect be the enemy of good enough'.

I am sure you know all this, so anyway . . . we see three different smart and well funded teams taking three different approaches. I suspect that means that neither you nor I should off-the-cuff write-off any of those approaches as completely basic and/or unworkable :)


#2660 seis

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Posted 18 December 2011 - 06:14 PM

Posted Image

#2661 ncs

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Posted 18 December 2011 - 07:10 PM

It would be nice to pick a testing location with minimal current :) But it is quite possible (for money) to build an accurate current map with a field of floating buoys.

The buoy field should accommodate a 15 minute long, single tack test from any wind direction, so let's make it a 10km square. Sounds expensive impossible.

Again, if you want to spend money for the best accuracy, measurement from off the boat to get clear air is best (as I mentioned previously - such as a support boat with a measurement tower).

Alinghi tried that in AC32 with a tall mast on a power boat. That project seems unlikely to be repeated.

#2662 Xlot

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Posted 18 December 2011 - 07:17 PM

Again, if you want to spend money for the best accuracy, measurement from off the boat to get clear air is best (as I mentioned previously - such as a support boat with a measurement tower).


At least, this would give Larry's and Matteo's yachts a semblance of purpose ..

So in your VPP (even with 2-boat) there is still variability introduced when you try to match up today's data set to prior days (if for instance the shear is different).


I assume you don't mean shear in the aeronautical sense (vertical wind component). If it's gradient, I would imagine since we're considering upwards of 18kts it should be fully turbulent and fairly uniform at those heights, no? In any case, the wind turbine guys should have written the book on that.

So none of this (one boat or two-boats actually sailing) is ever possible to the accuracy of lab science or wind tunnels. There are important variations introduced in both techniques. Which get exacerbated in this AC by the scaling effects required to do two boat testing (because of the surrogate boat ban). Shooting for perfect is impossible and you just have to move ahead and be sure that you don't let 'perfect be the enemy of good enough'.


Fully agree. In fact, my uneducated hunch is on the water testing should concentrate on wing/headsail settings that produce the design spanwise lift distribution at various windspeeds. Checking of airfoil performance should be via other means and I would imagine the SL-33 wing as adequate: Re should be 1/3rd of 72's (scale times the sq.root of same to factor in hull speeds), both OR and ETNZ have more than adequate firepower to evaluate that, AR not so sure.
My mantra keeps being: "look at what F1 teams are doing for inspiration". In this respect, I see a case for loading an SL-33 on a flatbed and doing airport runway tests at your heart's content (can the special green coating be far behind? :D )

#2663 Te Kooti

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Posted 18 December 2011 - 08:18 PM

I see a case for loading an SL-33 on a flatbed and doing airport runway tests at your heart's content (can the special green coating be far behind? :D )



Or, if the airport is busy, how about the beach?

Muriwai and 90-mile beach, stand by for an SL33 wing on a truck!!


#2664 Estar

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Posted 18 December 2011 - 08:26 PM

My mantra keeps being: "look at what F1 teams are doing for inspiration".


Does F1 do the equivelent of two boat testing (during the design phase)? Or does it rely on instrumented component testing and then 'one car' design prototype testing?

Muriwai and 90-mile beach, stand by for an SL33 wing on a truck!!

Might be fun :), and very NZ bailing wire cultural :), but I suspect a wind tunnel would be more private and controllable.

The buoy field should accommodate a 15 minute long, single tack test from any wind direction, so let's make it a 10km square. Sounds expensive impossible.

Alinghi tried that in AC32 with a tall mast on a power boat. That project seems unlikely to be repeated.


The difficulty of measuring the current field is probably hardest in SF, much easier in the H gulf, and easiest off V - which is where AR is testing. I would guess they could get a decent current map with 9 buoys (say $5k each). Quite a bit of effort has already gone into measuring/mapping current exactly there. I would surely not say 'impossible' to get useful results.

There are lots of ways to map a wind field. If you are saying 2-boats is good I will agree, especially given the need to develop crew. But if you are saying that one-boat CANNOT produce usable results then we can just agree to disagree for now, and see how AR does with their apparently one boat (at a time) design approach.

#2665 coxcreek

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Posted 18 December 2011 - 09:52 PM

I'm amazed that some are still thinking about headsails on full wings - it is total BS ... and the big 72's with their three, four, five??? element rigs, my humble prediction, will not have conventional headsails, offwind, .yes, and even then, maybe? . but not upwind. I mean this was sorted out four, five decades ago with the early sloop rigged LAC designs. Maybe the headsail nonsense is still a backward carryover from the mono dinosaurs. Paul Cayard was correct when he observed the AC45 he was on, sailed higher and faster to windward without the backward headsail. Wind fields and gradient effect measurements, fair enough, very sophisticated ... but not with jibs/genoas, please.

#2666 Xlot

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Posted 18 December 2011 - 10:03 PM

Does F1 do the equivelent of two boat testing (during the design phase)? Or does it rely on instrumented component testing and then 'one car' design prototype testing?


Not sure what you mean by that: of course, during the design phase different concepts are "raced" on the computer/simulator. Actual track testing time is severely limited now, instrumented testing is mainly reserved for runway straight-line sessions.

Posted Image

On pre-GP Fridays instrumentation is limited (ground clearance, tire temperature) and new parts are mainly tried out by the same driver

Muriwai and 90-mile beach, stand by for an SL33 wing on a truck!!


Afraid OR have the customary, unfair ;) advantage, with the Bonneville salt flats in their backyard

... but I suspect a wind tunnel would be more private and controllable.


Still pondering the significance of Prot.33.3 , with "model" (??) testing limited to 1/3rd scale

#2667 ncs

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Posted 18 December 2011 - 10:17 PM

The difficulty of measuring the current field is probably hardest in SF, much easier in the H gulf, and easiest off V - which is where AR is testing. I would guess they could get a decent current map with 9 buoys (say $5k each). Quite a bit of effort has already gone into measuring/mapping current exactly there. I would surely not say 'impossible' to get useful results.

SF currents are accurately modeled, probably more accurately than anywhere else in the world. No need for buoys there.

The AC32 MDS buoys cost at least 10x your estimate, not including operating costs.

#2668 Te Kooti

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Posted 19 December 2011 - 12:57 AM

Might be fun :), and very NZ bailing wire cultural :), but I suspect a wind tunnel would be more private and controllable.



Here is where being a small country has drawbacks.

As we saw during the recent Rena grounding and oil spill, NZ lacks a lot of gear.

When Schnack did sails for 1995 he built a wind tunnel with 4 x 2s (called 2 x 4s in the USA). Brought in some academics who made big claims but did not do too much.

The current syndicate could build their own tunnel. Except these wings are monsters.

Same with water tanks. Not too many of those in Aotearoa and even UBC (in Vancouver) ditched theres and erected apartment buildings.

Hence, some syndicates (eg. Alinghi) use the tank in Newfoundland.

Or keep going back to Wolfson in the UK.

Whatever route is chosen, it adds up to money.

#2669 Te Kooti

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Posted 19 December 2011 - 12:59 AM

Afraid OR have the customary, unfair ;) advantage, with the Bonneville salt flats in their backyard



Of course, but who holds the record for Indian motor cycle speed at Bonneville?

And, besides, do they have No. 8 wire on the salt flats?

#2670 Estar

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Posted 19 December 2011 - 01:02 AM

SF currents are accurately modeled, probably more accurately than anywhere else in the world. No need for buoys there.

hmmm . . . 'accurately modeled' . . . . if you say so; we can agree its 'accurate enough', but I thought you were the one who (in a post above) would not accept even a degree of error. Its certainly not been my personal experience that the SF data is accurate to within a degree.

But don't you also agree that V's current has been pretty extensively modelled and mapped?

And then if we agree its well mapped in SF and decently mapped in V (and perhaps also even H), then your point about current is perhaps not as big a hindrance as you might have suggested in your prior post?

The AC32 MDS buoys cost at least 10x your estimate, not including operating costs.

Technology has developed perhaps just a little since then (2007)! And most of the MDS buoys do rather more than map current. Even so, I hope there is a decent profit margin in there for MDS. My engineers could build a current mapping buoy for $5k each, as I am sure could Stan! You want to put in an order for a dozen?



#2671 eric e

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Posted 19 December 2011 - 02:28 AM


Afraid OR have the customary, unfair ;) advantage, with the Bonneville salt flats in their backyard



Of course, but who holds the record for Indian motor cycle speed at Bonneville?

And, besides, do they have No. 8 wire on the salt flats?


thanks hastings

i've been looking for an excuse to ignore you

merry xmas



#2672 ncs

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Posted 19 December 2011 - 02:30 AM

hmmm . . . 'accurately modeled' . . . . if you say so; we can agree its 'accurate enough', but I thought you were the one who (in a post above) would not accept even a degree of error. Its certainly not been my personal experience that the SF data is accurate to within a degree.

I was discussing true wind angle in the context of a VPP model, not current measurement.

And then if we agree its well mapped in SF and decently mapped in V (and perhaps also even H), then your point about current is perhaps not as big a hindrance as you might have suggested in your prior post?

Going back to our earlier discussion, current can be a hindrance if you want to measure it from onboard a yacht and cannot accurately measure Vs. Running models might be the next best thing, if the effect on your model's residual error is tolerable.

And most of the MDS buoys do rather more than map current. Even so, I hope there is a decent profit margin in there for MDS.

IIRC the AC32 MDS buoys measured only true wind, cost a shitload of money, and everyone was fired afterwards. Thanks but no thanks for the buoy offer. Those devices are prohibited for AC34.

You've missed my initial point: where are all those "high precision sensors" that make you wonder why teams still two boat test?

#2673 Estar

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Posted 19 December 2011 - 04:56 AM

I was discussing true wind angle in the context of a VPP model, not current measurement.

But surely current estimate error produces calculated true wind error?


And most of the MDS buoys do rather more than map current. Even so, I hope there is a decent profit margin in there for MDS.

Thanks but no thanks for the buoy offer. Those devices are prohibited for AC34.

Allowed for testing, which I think :) is what we are talking about - prohibited only when a racing venue is 'active' (protocol 36.2).

You've missed my initial point: where are all those "high precision sensors" that make you wonder why teams still two boat test?

That was Tony-18, not me (see his post just below). I suspect he was primarily referring to the precision GPS sensors that have become much more common (and talked about because of Stan's work).

However there has also been some work done on wind sensors for the turbine market. OR used (or at least talked) about one of these units in the DOG match - the 'catch the wind' portable laser wind sensor - I am curious if you (or anyone else) know what sort of accuracy it actually had? The quoted product accuracy is +-1 degree and +1 .5m/s at a range of 30-150meters - that's pretty decent if it actually achieved that, and would 'solve' most of your wind measurement concerns.

With all the current high precision sensors around today does make you wonder how usefull two boat equipment really is.





#2674 SW Sailor

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Posted 19 December 2011 - 05:00 AM


The difficulty of measuring the current field is probably hardest in SF, much easier in the H gulf, and easiest off V - which is where AR is testing. I would guess they could get a decent current map with 9 buoys (say $5k each). Quite a bit of effort has already gone into measuring/mapping current exactly there. I would surely not say 'impossible' to get useful results.

SF currents are accurately modeled, probably more accurately than anywhere else in the world. No need for buoys there.

The AC32 MDS buoys cost at least 10x your estimate, not including operating costs.

SF currents may be more accurately modeled than most, but I can guarantee you the best models are inaccurate, and in fact not close to reality.

I've tested every current model available for the Bay, and they are very unreliable for even local races, let alone AC level events, despite the claims of the providers.



#2675 ncs

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Posted 19 December 2011 - 05:12 AM

But surely current estimate error produces calculated true wind error?

Most certainly -- if you're using SOG as a proxy for Vs in a wind triangle.

That was Tony-18, not me (see his post just below).

You're correct. My apology.

However there has also been some work done on wind sensors for the turbine market. OR used (or at least talked) about one of these units in the DOG match - the 'catch the wind' portable laser wind sensor.

See this post.

#2676 Estar

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Posted 19 December 2011 - 05:27 AM

The full story is far more interesting. The system was never used during AC33 racing and is no longer commercially available.


Thanks - can you share the "full story" or is it NDAed?

They do seem to still be in business selling a larger 'man-portable' (but not handheld) senser unit that seems to have had a positive test report from the Canadian Government, but that may all be PR.

#2677 ncs

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Posted 19 December 2011 - 07:33 AM



The full story is far more interesting. The system was never used during AC33 racing and is no longer commercially available.

Thanks - can you share the "full story" or is it NDAed?

Not under NDA, perhaps over a SF microbrew or five in 2013.

#2678 ~Stingray~

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Posted 19 December 2011 - 08:10 PM

Nice piece at ETNZ blog, Wings n Things
http://etnzblog.com/#!2011/12/wings-n-things-turning-ideas-into-reality

#2679 Xlot

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Posted 19 December 2011 - 08:40 PM

^^

This has been a great project for us, putting into practice some of our ideas and test them ..


Look, my love for ETNZ knows no bounds (until the Dec 31, 2012 timeline that is ;) ) and I'm sure Toon's a very likeable fellow, but this is a bit rich.

Fact is, not a single original idea on wings has yet come out from the AC designers aristocracy - the one exception possibly being WZ's (powered) control system. What we have seen is the largely uncredited appropriation of C-cat technology [remember Juan K gaping at Aethon's wing and "wondering what we've been doing for the past 20 years?"]. Meanwhile, all Steve Clark got was a cameo at North, Magnus was squeezed out at ETNZ and only Steve Killing seems to be holding on.

Life's not fair, I know, and those guys were suicidally open in sharing their know-how (the C-cat mindset), but ..

#2680 nav

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Posted 19 December 2011 - 09:19 PM

^^


This has been a great project for us, putting into practice some of our ideas and test them ..


Look, my love for ETNZ knows no bounds (until the Dec 31, 2012 timeline that is ;) ) and I'm sure Toon's a very likeable fellow, but this is a bit rich.

Fact is, not a single original idea on wings has yet come out from the AC designers aristocracy - the one exception possibly being WZ's (powered) control system. What we have seen is the largely uncredited appropriation of C-cat technology [remember Juan K gaping at Aethon's wing and "wondering what we've been doing for the past 20 years?"]. Meanwhile, all Steve Clark got was a cameo at North, Magnus was squeezed out at ETNZ and only Steve Killing seems to be holding on.

Life's not fair, I know, and those guys were suicidally open in sharing their know-how (the C-cat mindset), but ..


No improvements in wings yet through the AC programs. Surprise surprise - they are only just getting started.

Surely with the resources being thrown at boat wings now, improvements will come. And even if it's claimed that " we thought of it first" by others, making those ideas practicable is a step forward.

TWT (time will tell)

#2681 yachtyakka

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Posted 20 December 2011 - 07:56 AM

saw both 33's out last knight heading home on the ferry. they were sending it past devonport, red wings look very sick. very very sick!!

#2682 SW Sailor

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Posted 20 December 2011 - 03:35 PM


The full story is far more interesting. The system was never used during AC33 racing and is no longer commercially available.


Thanks - can you share the "full story" or is it NDAed?

They do seem to still be in business selling a larger 'man-portable' (but not handheld) senser unit that seems to have had a positive test report from the Canadian Government, but that may all be PR.

As I recall it was a technology that Alinghi allowed, then subsequently tried to disallow once BMWO started evaluating it by again changing the rules, but couldn't make the change stick. BMWO elected not to use it due to weight considerations, I believe it weighed about 5 lbs.

I had the opportunity to use it while in Valencia - fairly accurate in direction (1 or 2 degree resolution) and velocity to 1000 meters and would read the wind in various increments of distance. Priced at $150K at the time. Probably best suited for assessing micro wind conditions in very unpredictable local areas.



#2683 Te Kooti

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Posted 20 December 2011 - 07:07 PM

I had the opportunity to use it while in Valencia - fairly accurate in direction (1 or 2 degree resolution) and velocity to 1000 meters and would read the wind in various increments of distance. Priced at $150K at the time. Probably best suited for assessing micro wind conditions in very unpredictable local areas.



Designers love this stuff but, in the confines of SF bay, things will happen fast.

From my completely uninformed perspective I would say "look-ahead" wind detection was probably better suited to the more leisurely ambience of an IACC regatta.

With the 72s there will be high speed decision-making. There will be little time for helmsman-tactician ruminations.

#2684 Te Kooti

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Posted 20 December 2011 - 07:08 PM

saw both 33's out last knight heading home on the ferry. they were sending it past devonport, red wings look very sick. very very sick!!



KIa ora .... you will get over the colour.

These are temporary arrangements.

And they are red for a purpose.

#2685 coxcreek

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Posted 20 December 2011 - 08:48 PM

TK, very sick means hyper cool, catch up mate.

#2686 Te Kooti

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Posted 21 December 2011 - 12:09 AM

TK, very sick means hyper cool, catch up mate.


Oh dear!

Been up in the bush too long!

#2687 Te Kooti

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Posted 21 December 2011 - 07:49 PM

Here is a wild guess - not based on any inside information.

The Xmas break is pretty entrenched in NZ culture and TNZ people are entitled to time with wives + kids.

Hence, there will be a break over Xmas and into January.

But once things resume it will be all-on with LR.

By then the AC45 should be home and LR should have one as well.

If LR produce Bruni and Draper on the helm they will be in good shape.

However, I am now wondering about this.

With the SL33 wing work now under way how can they keep this going and simultaneously run an AC45 proramme?

Or will LR crews jump into the SL33?

Whatever happens, it looks like it will involve many sailors.

And do not forget early to mid-March will be preoccupied with the Volvo stopover (I hope there are still six boats in the game).

So, as is always the case in the AC game, there is not much time.

Attached Files



#2688 SW Sailor

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Posted 21 December 2011 - 08:07 PM


I had the opportunity to use it while in Valencia - fairly accurate in direction (1 or 2 degree resolution) and velocity to 1000 meters and would read the wind in various increments of distance. Priced at $150K at the time. Probably best suited for assessing micro wind conditions in very unpredictable local areas.



Designers love this stuff but, in the confines of SF bay, things will happen fast.

From my completely uninformed perspective I would say "look-ahead" wind detection was probably better suited to the more leisurely ambience of an IACC regatta.

With the 72s there will be high speed decision-making. There will be little time for helmsman-tactician ruminations.


It's certainly an interesting piece of technology, but not well suited for AC72's on the bay. Their tactics will be based on several factors.

The product demonstrated in Valencia is also no longer available.



#2689 ~Stingray~

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Posted 21 December 2011 - 09:13 PM

Merry Christmas wishes from GD



#2690 knarly34

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Posted 21 December 2011 - 11:21 PM

Merry Christmas wishes from GD



Pretty cool vid from GD. Kinda real raw info straight talking shit. Good stuff.

#2691 nav

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Posted 21 December 2011 - 11:28 PM

Sounds like that AC45 tent is theirs then and not LR's.

So you local boys know what you better do over the break - get looking.

It'll probably be one of these..............

Posted Image

#2692 ~Stingray~

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Posted 22 December 2011 - 12:03 AM

^ very funny!

#2693 ncs

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Posted 22 December 2011 - 12:31 AM

By then the AC45 should be home and LR should have one as well.

The AC45 is in Auckland, unpacked and in the tent.

With the SL33 wing work now under way how can they keep this going and simultaneously run an AC45 proramme?

The same way ETNZ has been going for nearly all of 2011.

#2694 Monster Mash

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Posted 24 December 2011 - 02:33 AM

Brand new bright orange SL33 being put together at Svendsens (Nor Cal) as we speak.
Soft sail version.

#2695 nroose

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Posted 24 December 2011 - 03:34 AM

Brand new bright orange SL33 being put together at Svendsens (Nor Cal) as we speak.
Soft sail version.

Wose is it?

#2696 Estar

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Posted 24 December 2011 - 01:06 PM


Brand new bright orange SL33 being put together at Svendsens (Nor Cal) as we speak.
Soft sail version.

Wose is it?


SF SL33 thread


#2697 Mariner

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Posted 27 December 2011 - 07:01 PM

Merry Christmas wishes from GD




God I freakin luv that guy!

#2698 Te Kooti

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Posted 28 December 2011 - 07:17 PM

Kiwi new year is looking wet!



#2699 Mariner

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Posted 28 December 2011 - 07:29 PM

Kiwi new year is looking wet!



At least somewhere on the planet is getting rain! In Northern California we are VERY VERY dry for this time of year and the D Word is starting to rear its ugly head. We live and die by the Sierra Snowpack for drinking water AND more importantly skiing and snowboarding and it is looking GRIM!

#2700 Te Kooti

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Posted 28 December 2011 - 08:10 PM


Kiwi new year is looking wet!



At least somewhere on the planet is getting rain! In Northern California we are VERY VERY dry for this time of year and the D Word is starting to rear its ugly head. We live and die by the Sierra Snowpack for drinking water AND more importantly skiing and snowboarding and it is looking GRIM!


My friends in Vancouver will send you some water in a pipeline.

For the right price.

Northern China and SE Australia also have very serious water shortages.

Unfortunately, many senior Chinee leaders are hydrologists - bursting to build crazy water diversion schemes (the Tibet occupation is all about water)




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