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70's Santa Cruz 33


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#1 esoxproblem

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Posted 28 January 2011 - 03:16 PM

I know this is the place where opinions run like water. So does this boat have it still?? I am moving to Lake MI area and really want to find a boat that a thousandaire can give millionaires fits with... Call it class warfare on the water. (Sorry I'm bitter about the economy and my W2)

#2 budman

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Posted 28 January 2011 - 03:34 PM

There is an old Santa Cruz 24 just sitting (for years now) in Texas that would probably give you BIG BANG for the buck.

#3 Mach 5

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Posted 28 January 2011 - 05:26 PM

I know this is the place where opinions run like water. So does this boat have it still?? I am moving to Lake MI area and really want to find a boat that a thousandaire can give millionaires fits with... Call it class warfare on the water. (Sorry I'm bitter about the economy and my W2)


I found one sitting on Vashon Island that needed some love about 18 months ago, and after giving 'said love', the boat is great! Roomy, fast,and pretty easy to sail. We seem to do well for our rating, as long as we stay focused...

Last sail of 2010...



14 knots, planing, in about 25-30, with a number 4 and dacron main, and NO white knuckles..

I love my Chicken Coop 33!

#4 Touch of Gray

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Posted 28 January 2011 - 06:27 PM

There is an old Santa Cruz 24 just sitting (for years now) in Texas that would probably give you BIG BANG for the buck.

Really, a SC 24? Pics or it never happened.

#5 Editor

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Posted 28 January 2011 - 06:42 PM

love the 33. spent a hell of a lot of time racing the 33 freightrain - even raced it ior in the mdr to puerta vallarta! good boats and probably have a decent rating that makes 'em a good way to go if you can find one in good shape.

#6 Ishtarsdog

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Posted 28 January 2011 - 07:13 PM


I know this is the place where opinions run like water. So does this boat have it still?? I am moving to Lake MI area and really want to find a boat that a thousandaire can give millionaires fits with... Call it class warfare on the water. (Sorry I'm bitter about the economy and my W2)


I found one sitting on Vashon Island that needed some love about 18 months ago, and after giving 'said love', the boat is great! Roomy, fast,and pretty easy to sail. We seem to do well for our rating, as long as we stay focused...

Last sail of 2010...



14 knots, planing, in about 25-30, with a number 4 and dacron main, and NO white knuckles..

I love my Chicken Coop 33!



Hell yes! Great video, and great boats. I-5 in Olympia does well too, and that is some really light air down there...

#7 Maxx Baqustae

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Posted 28 January 2011 - 07:25 PM


There is an old Santa Cruz 24 just sitting (for years now) in Texas that would probably give you BIG BANG for the buck.

Really, a SC 24? Pics or it never happened.


I was thinking the same thing - a SC 24?

#8 Touch of Gray

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Posted 28 January 2011 - 07:57 PM



There is an old Santa Cruz 24 just sitting (for years now) in Texas that would probably give you BIG BANG for the buck.

Really, a SC 24? Pics or it never happened.


I was thinking the same thing - a SC 24?

Fukin NOOB. Dumb ass shit and NO TITTIES whatsofukinever.

TOG

#9 budman

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Posted 28 January 2011 - 08:05 PM


There is an old Santa Cruz 24 just sitting (for years now) in Texas that would probably give you BIG BANG for the buck.

Really, a SC 24? Pics or it never happened.


Yes, it does exist. Owner bought it directly from Lee, who is/was a friend of his. It was a one-off that was the proto for the SC sleds. Will see if I can get a pic or two this weekend if I make it to the YC.

#10 budman

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Posted 28 January 2011 - 08:43 PM




There is an old Santa Cruz 24 just sitting (for years now) in Texas that would probably give you BIG BANG for the buck.

Really, a SC 24? Pics or it never happened.


I was thinking the same thing - a SC 24?

Fukin NOOB. Dumb ass shit and NO TITTIES whatsofukinever.

TOG


TOG . . . don't be so quick to call me a NOOB. That applies only to this forum. Just b/c YOU never heard of a SC 24, does not mean it is non-existent. I will take pics and you can eat yer bird droppings when I post. Fair 'nuff? LOL . .I hope the boat is still there . . .should be . . .been sitting for years.

#11 Former MDR Vandal 1

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Posted 28 January 2011 - 08:52 PM

love the 33. spent a hell of a lot of time racing the 33 freightrain - even raced it ior in the mdr to puerta vallarta! good boats and probably have a decent rating that makes 'em a good way to go if you can find one in good shape.


Was that SC 33 Lee Neufeld's boat?

#12 isma

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Posted 28 January 2011 - 08:57 PM

TOG . . . don't be so quick to call me a NOOB. That applies only to this forum. Just b/c YOU never heard of a SC 24, does not mean it is non-existent. I will take pics and you can eat yer bird droppings when I post. Fair 'nuff? LOL . .I hope the boat is still there . . .should be . . .been sitting for years.

Could you be looking at a Moore 24? I think they were built in SC and look like the sort of thing Lee would have designed for a 24'. I think but am not sure Olson designed it.

#13 soling2003

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Posted 28 January 2011 - 09:05 PM

Muffin, was that the old Thunder Chicken???

#14 sledracr

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Posted 28 January 2011 - 09:10 PM


TOG . . . don't be so quick to call me a NOOB. That applies only to this forum. Just b/c YOU never heard of a SC 24, does not mean it is non-existent. I will take pics and you can eat yer bird droppings when I post. Fair 'nuff? LOL . .I hope the boat is still there . . .should be . . .been sitting for years.

Could you be looking at a Moore 24? I think they were built in SC and look like the sort of thing Lee would have designed for a 24'. I think but am not sure Olson designed it.


That would be my guess. A derivative/mod of the Moore, rather than an original design or mini-merlin test vehicle.

#15 budman

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Posted 28 January 2011 - 09:10 PM


TOG . . . don't be so quick to call me a NOOB. That applies only to this forum. Just b/c YOU never heard of a SC 24, does not mean it is non-existent. I will take pics and you can eat yer bird droppings when I post. Fair 'nuff? LOL . .I hope the boat is still there . . .should be . . .been sitting for years.

Could you be looking at a Moore 24? I think they were built in SC and look like the sort of thing Lee would have designed for a 24'. I think but am not sure Olson designed it.


ISMA - Ron Moore is a very good friend of mine. It is NOT a Moore 24. Yes, they are built near SC, in Watsonville. I have sailed on a number of 24's. I raced on a rack-wing modified Moore 30 back in the late 80's when the Darden brothers had their Ultimate Yacht Race series going.

I should probably give a caveat . . . it is perhaps not a 'true" Santa Cruz. Like I said, it was the proto-type for Bill Lee's later sleds, before he actualy started building SC 70's and 50's. Let's call it a Bill Lee 24, but it might as well be called a SC. I will take some pics and post so you guys can see the boat. Just like you might call one of George Olson's 24's an Olson 24, it is really a Moore 24, as Ron was one the one who put it into production. Big difference here is that Lee's 24 never saw a hull #2.

Budman

#16 Mach 5

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Posted 28 January 2011 - 09:26 PM

Muffin, was that the old Thunder Chicken???



I don't think so... It WAS Ajax however, before that crazy yellow boat dude from A-town downsized....
Could it have been Thunder Chicken after or before Ajax??

Was Thunder chicken the one in SF with the modified transom??

Muffin rockin' it old school at RTC with Staysail, AND reaching strut!!

Sean Trew Rocks!

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#17 Somebody Else

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Posted 28 January 2011 - 09:43 PM

love the 33. spent a hell of a lot of time racing the 33 freightrain - even raced it ior in the mdr to puerta vallarta! good boats and probably have a decent rating that makes 'em a good way to go if you can find one in good shape.

I remember the SC33 Freight Train and Swenson's SC27 Hotspur.
I spent a summer sailing a Santana 525 outta Channel Islands. It is because of this that 20 years later I bought a SC27 for myself.

We had a couple of races I remember really well. One, we were sailing from Channel Islands to Santa Barbara Island, then return. It was pretty light and the visibility was getting crapper and crappier. By the time we got to SB Island visibility was down to a couple hundred yards max. Off to stbd we could barely make out Hotspur, then, straining our eyes we could barely make out SB Island to port. There is no way Hotspur could see the island. Both boats being without any instruments of use, we were going on DR. So we quietly headed up and rounded SB Island while Hotspur continued on for who knows how much longer. I also remember from this race, Freight Train was feeding Hotspur illegal weather info from up the course on the VHF. I thought that was pretty low...

Another race that season called for leaving Santa Rosa Island to port. We almost made it to the tip when we lost the 525's mast in 30+ knots of wind, single reef, #3 jib. It was a flaw in the design where the spreader roots could dig into the sidewall with a lot of bend in the rig. The spreader roots were subsequently redesigned and there were no more failures. Though I wonder how many other 525s spent time punching into 30+ knot headwinds and 10' seas...

So there we were, 43 miles offshore, no radio, no engine, no rig. We salvaged everything, then stuck the boom gooseneck into the galley sink drain and hoisted the #3 clue to the top (outhaul) and sailed 43 miles back to the harbor. We made the harbor at dawn and sailed with this rig past the RC and informed them, "We withdraw." They were staring at us with huge eyes! They had heard we were in trouble and assumed we were still floundering out in the middle of nowhere and were getting ready to contact the Coast Guard. I was so pissed we didn't get the opportunity to fly a chute back home from out there. :angry:

#18 Touch of Gray

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Posted 28 January 2011 - 09:48 PM



TOG . . . don't be so quick to call me a NOOB. That applies only to this forum. Just b/c YOU never heard of a SC 24, does not mean it is non-existent. I will take pics and you can eat yer bird droppings when I post. Fair 'nuff? LOL . .I hope the boat is still there . . .should be . . .been sitting for years.

Could you be looking at a Moore 24? I think they were built in SC and look like the sort of thing Lee would have designed for a 24'. I think but am not sure Olson designed it.


ISMA - Ron Moore is a very good friend of mine. It is NOT a Moore 24. Yes, they are built near SC, in Watsonville. I have sailed on a number of 24's. I raced on a rack-wing modified Moore 30 back in the late 80's when the Darden brothers had their Ultimate Yacht Race series going.

I should probably give a caveat . . . it is perhaps not a 'true" Santa Cruz. Like I said, it was the proto-type for Bill Lee's later sleds, before he actualy started building SC 70's and 50's. Let's call it a Bill Lee 24, but it might as well be called a SC. I will take some pics and post so you guys can see the boat. Just like you might call one of George Olson's 24's an Olson 24, it is really a Moore 24, as Ron was one the one who put it into production. Big difference here is that Lee's 24 never saw a hull #2.

Budman

Oh goody, a shit fight, where's the popcorn. Seems to me that Mr Lee Built the SC 27 well before he did any 50's or 70's, so maybe you have a proto for the 27. The 50, if you know them, is an absolute scaled up SC 27.

And yes NOOB applies to the board, and is irrespective of ones experience or for that matter, prowess. So fuck off, NEWB.

#19 slater-san

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Posted 28 January 2011 - 11:02 PM

ISMA - Ron Moore is a very good friend of mine. It is NOT a Moore 24. Yes, they are built near SC, in Watsonville. I have sailed on a number of 24's. I raced on a rack-wing modified Moore 30 back in the late 80's when the Darden brothers had their Ultimate Yacht Race series going.

I should probably give a caveat . . . it is perhaps not a 'true" Santa Cruz. Like I said, it was the proto-type for Bill Lee's later sleds, before he actualy started building SC 70's and 50's. Let's call it a Bill Lee 24, but it might as well be called a SC. I will take some pics and post so you guys can see the boat. Just like you might call one of George Olson's 24's an Olson 24, it is really a Moore 24, as Ron was one the one who put it into production. Big difference here is that Lee's 24 never saw a hull #2.

Budman

FWIW none of the Moore 24's were built in Watsonville....all came out of the original "Reef" on Commercial Way in Santa Cruz.

#20 tendegreealex

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Posted 28 January 2011 - 11:06 PM


Muffin, was that the old Thunder Chicken???



I don't think so... It WAS Ajax however, before that crazy yellow boat dude from A-town downsized....
Could it have been Thunder Chicken after or before Ajax??

Was Thunder chicken the one in SF with the modified transom??

Muffin rockin' it old school at RTC with Staysail, AND reaching strut!!

Sean Trew Rocks!

Thunder chicken was owned by Gordy Cole, right?
Muffin was Ajax, then medusa, then Argo?
I love this boat. sails nice, and cruises awesome. Standup headroom, for me Im 6'1".
Go Muffin!

#21 Touch of Gray

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Posted 28 January 2011 - 11:32 PM



Muffin, was that the old Thunder Chicken???



I don't think so... It WAS Ajax however, before that crazy yellow boat dude from A-town downsized....
Could it have been Thunder Chicken after or before Ajax??

Was Thunder chicken the one in SF with the modified transom??

Muffin rockin' it old school at RTC with Staysail, AND reaching strut!!

Sean Trew Rocks!

Thunder chicken was owned by Gordy Cole, right?
Muffin was Ajax, then medusa, then Argo?
I love this boat. sails nice, and cruises awesome. Standup headroom, for me Im 6'1".
Go Muffin!

Thunder Chicken was Mr Cole's boat. Most of us had to sail our IOR 1-Ton leadmines against him and when he turned the corner he'd go flying by going "Buck buck buuuck" making a chicken noise. Hated that. But he did have a point.

TOG

#22 stinky

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Posted 29 January 2011 - 01:16 AM



TOG . . . don't be so quick to call me a NOOB. That applies only to this forum. Just b/c YOU never heard of a SC 24, does not mean it is non-existent. I will take pics and you can eat yer bird droppings when I post. Fair 'nuff? LOL . .I hope the boat is still there . . .should be . . .been sitting for years.

Could you be looking at a Moore 24? I think they were built in SC and look like the sort of thing Lee would have designed for a 24'. I think but am not sure Olson designed it.


ISMA - Ron Moore is a very good friend of mine. It is NOT a Moore 24. Yes, they are built near SC, in Watsonville. I have sailed on a number of 24's. I raced on a rack-wing modified Moore 30 back in the late 80's when the Darden brothers had their Ultimate Yacht Race series going.

I should probably give a caveat . . . it is perhaps not a 'true" Santa Cruz. Like I said, it was the proto-type for Bill Lee's later sleds, before he actualy started building SC 70's and 50's. Let's call it a Bill Lee 24, but it might as well be called a SC. I will take some pics and post so you guys can see the boat. Just like you might call one of George Olson's 24's an Olson 24, it is really a Moore 24, as Ron was one the one who put it into production. Big difference here is that Lee's 24 never saw a hull #2.

Budman


Is this the one the keel fell off of, to be replaced with a piece of ply and traps?

#23 sledracr

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Posted 29 January 2011 - 01:26 AM

Is this the one the keel fell off of, to be replaced with a piece of ply and traps?


That was Magic. Eyewitness reports here: http://forums.sailin...dpost&p=3140302

#24 budman

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Posted 29 January 2011 - 01:29 AM




TOG . . . don't be so quick to call me a NOOB. That applies only to this forum. Just b/c YOU never heard of a SC 24, does not mean it is non-existent. I will take pics and you can eat yer bird droppings when I post. Fair 'nuff? LOL . .I hope the boat is still there . . .should be . . .been sitting for years.

Could you be looking at a Moore 24? I think they were built in SC and look like the sort of thing Lee would have designed for a 24'. I think but am not sure Olson designed it.


ISMA - Ron Moore is a very good friend of mine. It is NOT a Moore 24. Yes, they are built near SC, in Watsonville. I have sailed on a number of 24's. I raced on a rack-wing modified Moore 30 back in the late 80's when the Darden brothers had their Ultimate Yacht Race series going.

I should probably give a caveat . . . it is perhaps not a 'true" Santa Cruz. Like I said, it was the proto-type for Bill Lee's later sleds, before he actualy started building SC 70's and 50's. Let's call it a Bill Lee 24, but it might as well be called a SC. I will take some pics and post so you guys can see the boat. Just like you might call one of George Olson's 24's an Olson 24, it is really a Moore 24, as Ron was one the one who put it into production. Big difference here is that Lee's 24 never saw a hull #2.

Budman

Oh goody, a shit fight, where's the popcorn. Seems to me that Mr Lee Built the SC 27 well before he did any 50's or 70's, so maybe you have a proto for the 27. The 50, if you know them, is an absolute scaled up SC 27.

And yes NOOB applies to the board, and is irrespective of ones experience or for that matter, prowess. So fuck off, NEWB.


TOG . . . not a shit fight, but a matter of facts. You are, however, correct about the 27 being a predecessor to the 50s and 70s - common knowledge. I sailed many winning seasons on a SC 27 named Fast Times. I also sailed a number of years on SC 50, Passion, including a most memorable race to Havana, in 99, in which we took first overall (I was a rotational driver on the gig). I am quite aware of the SC line and pedigree, so don't be such an assumptive ass. I will post pics of the SC 24 sometime this weekend to quell the BS once and for all.

#25 sledracr

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Posted 29 January 2011 - 01:33 AM

I sailed many winning seasons on a SC 27 named Fast Times. I also sailed a number of years on SC 50, Passion, including a most memorable race to Havana, in 99, in which we took first overall (I was a rotational driver on the gig).


Oh. Yeah, clearly, you're an expert. How could anyone question *those* credentials. :ph34r:

#26 Nomenclature

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Posted 29 January 2011 - 01:33 AM



There is an old Santa Cruz 24 just sitting (for years now) in Texas that would probably give you BIG BANG for the buck.

Really, a SC 24? Pics or it never happened.


I was thinking the same thing - a SC 24?

This is interesting. The whole Santa Cruz chronology has been pretty
well gone over in various recent threads, with no mention of this boat.
Bill Lee went from Magic circa '70, to the Witchcraft/Panache type boats in '73
and then to production of the 27 in '74. I would like to see where this
mystery 24'er fits in.

#27 casc27

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Posted 29 January 2011 - 02:31 AM

A Lee 24 would be news to me, too. Maybe budman will have the stones to contact the real man and ask for some verification: wizard@fastisfun.com




There is an old Santa Cruz 24 just sitting (for years now) in Texas that would probably give you BIG BANG for the buck.

Really, a SC 24? Pics or it never happened.


I was thinking the same thing - a SC 24?

This is interesting. The whole Santa Cruz chronology has been pretty
well gone over in various recent threads, with no mention of this boat.
Bill Lee went from Magic circa '70, to the Witchcraft/Panache type boats in '73
and then to production of the 27 in '74. I would like to see where this
mystery 24'er fits in.



#28 casc27

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Posted 29 January 2011 - 02:36 AM

...and for the OP, there's one for sale right now: sc33 for sale

#29 Surf City Racing

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Posted 29 January 2011 - 02:41 AM

The 33 mold is currently a garden up in the Santa Cruz Mountains.

#30 Mark K

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Posted 29 January 2011 - 02:57 AM

...and for the OP, there's one for sale right now: sc33 for sale


Man, that's a good looking 78' vintage boat. Even comes with a blooper. Hope it finds a good home.

#31 budman

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Posted 29 January 2011 - 04:46 AM

A Lee 24 would be news to me, too. Maybe budman will have the stones to contact the real man and ask for some verification: wizard@fastisfun.com





There is an old Santa Cruz 24 just sitting (for years now) in Texas that would probably give you BIG BANG for the buck.

Really, a SC 24? Pics or it never happened.


I was thinking the same thing - a SC 24?

This is interesting. The whole Santa Cruz chronology has been pretty
well gone over in various recent threads, with no mention of this boat.
Bill Lee went from Magic circa '70, to the Witchcraft/Panache type boats in '73
and then to production of the 27 in '74. I would like to see where this
mystery 24'er fits in.


It seems the "mystery" is steadily unfolding. I called Ron (yes, Moore) this eve and we had a very lengthy conversation about this whole SC 24 debate. Way back when, a teacher and sailing enthusiast by the name of Steve Fennel lived next door to a guy named Bill Lee. Things that make ya go . . .HHHHMMMMM. Seems Ron is VERY familiar with the boat. Allegedly, Bill drew up some plans for a 24 and Steve built a mold. From that mold there were 3 boats that were built . . .so I stand corrected that the boat I claim to be a SC 24 is a one off. Steve Fennel built hull #1 of this alleged Lee-designed boat. It was called π (greek symbol pi). Ron could not remember who built hull #2 (nor could he recall the name of the boat, but said something like "excaliber" perhaps), but it was not built by Fennell. HOWEVER, hull #3 was built by one of Ron Moore's apprentices - Alan Wirtanen, at Ron's REEF shop, where he was then building the Moore 24. Ron helped Alan build the boat. He said it was beautifully finished and was painted White with Orange (the same as it sits today in TX) and was named DOG WASTE. The name does not remain remain on the boat.

As for history, apparently Hull #1 (π) washed ashore after the boat capsized offshore on a race from San Francisco to Santa Barbara. According to Ron, three of the crew perished, including Fennell, his wife and Fennel's brother. One person survived. Ron said one of his Moore 24's won the race, but the victory was overshadowed by the loss of those that perished. Interestingly, I was having dinner at a friend's house this eve who lived in Marina del Rey, at the time of that race. He overheard my conversation with Ron and independently recalled the facts of that race, confirming what Ron told me. He did not recall what type of boat it was, however, the facts he recalled corresponded with Ron's recount of the details. Ron said that hull #1 was subsequently destroyed and does not exist.

It is not known where hull #2 is, but Ron says it may still be in the bay area somewhere, though he has not seen it around since the 70's. He added that boat was poorly built and could not remember who undertook the #2 project.

It was hull #3, however, that Ron said was the best-built of this alleged Lee design. He said he and Wirtanen built it a little differently than the previous two hulls - it was lighter and faster. Hence, my statement that the boat is a "one-off" is not far from being correct. Another interesting bit of trivia from Ron is that Alan Wirtaner (with a little help from mom's piggy bank) soon therafter went into partnership with none other than Geogre Olson and co-founded Pacific Yachts.

As for the Orange and White ride that now sits here in TX, I asked how likely might it have been that my friend bought the boat from Bill Lee back in the 70's. Ron said that may very well be fact, as Bill was a wheeler and dealer and brokered a lot of boats, and probably did so for Wirtaner. I hope to see the owner this weekend, if not, I will call him in the coming week and ask him to recount the details of the purchase from Lee all those years ago.

So, is it a SC 24? Some might say yes, and some of you will opine no. At this point . . . I don't give a shit . . . I just heard a kewl story of uldb boat building history straight from the mouth of a very good friend . . . . if you dont believe it, call Ron yourself.

And, by the way, it doesn't take balls to pick up a phone and call someone. Regardless, I do have balls, and I will be calling Bill Lee at Wizard Yachts in the coming week to have a chat with him about this whole story. I wanna hear what he has to say. Should be interesting. I am interested to know what the boat really is . . . . . and how it came to be.

Reflecting on the friendship I have shared with Ron for almost 25 years, it's wild neither of us knew we had a common thread in a "storied" boat that sits idle today. I skippered the boat the last time it sailed in 1989. Kind of sad it has sat on the trailer since. I will be at the YC tomorrow and will take pics of the boat for those who may be interested to see it.

#32 Surf City Racing

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Posted 29 January 2011 - 05:12 AM

Nice story! Pick up the phone and ask, that's all it takes.

This era of boat building is really confusing. The fact that all of these guys started out as friends just building boats for fun and then migrated the whole scene into multiple businesses, makes it really hard to pin down. 40 year old memories don't help either...

#33 isma

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Posted 29 January 2011 - 05:14 AM

Budman,
Great follow-up but I want partial credit for guessing Moore 24, after all, he did help build it! Looking forward to the pics.

#34 Jollymon

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Posted 29 January 2011 - 06:55 AM



Muffin, was that the old Thunder Chicken???



I don't think so... It WAS Ajax however, before that crazy yellow boat dude from A-town downsized....
Could it have been Thunder Chicken after or before Ajax??

Was Thunder chicken the one in SF with the modified transom??

Muffin rockin' it old school at RTC with Staysail, AND reaching strut!!

Sean Trew Rocks!

Thunder chicken was owned by Gordy Cole, right?
Muffin was Ajax, then medusa, then Argo?
I love this boat. sails nice, and cruises awesome. Standup headroom, for me Im 6'1".
Go Muffin!


Thunder Chicken became Eight Bells and moved to Des Moines and then to Olympia. Not sure where or what it is now.

JM

#35 Monster Mash

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Posted 29 January 2011 - 07:27 AM

There's a boat thats been floatimg between Nelsons and Svendsens a couple of times. First time I saw it thought t was maybe the first Moore 24 prototype but its not.. It appears to be from that era, 24 ' ish. Maybe its hull #2. I'll grab a pic next week. (this one doesn't have a cabin) and its not in very good shape.

#36 budman

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Posted 29 January 2011 - 01:39 PM

Nice story! Pick up the phone and ask, that's all it takes.

This era of boat building is really confusing. The fact that all of these guys started out as friends just building boats for fun and then migrated the whole scene into multiple businesses, makes it really hard to pin down. 40 year old memories don't help either...


No doubt about the nice story . . . I was fascinated, to say the least. As for the 40 y.o. memories, I was actually rather impressed at how well Ron recalled the attributes and details of a boat he had not seen in so long. He is a true craftsman of the trade and superlative guy, to say the least.

#37 budman

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Posted 29 January 2011 - 01:41 PM

Budman,
Great follow-up but I want partial credit for guessing Moore 24, after all, he did help build it! Looking forward to the pics.


Roger that, ISMA. I will take some pics today and hopefully post by this eve.

#38 budman

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Posted 29 January 2011 - 01:44 PM

There's a boat thats been floatimg between Nelsons and Svendsens a couple of times. First time I saw it thought t was maybe the first Moore 24 prototype but its not.. It appears to be from that era, 24 ' ish. Maybe its hull #2. I'll grab a pic next week. (this one doesn't have a cabin) and its not in very good shape.


The one here does not have a cabin really either. It has a flush deck. It's more like a sail hold below decks. Or, if you were a hormonal teen wanting some privacy with your chick, there is enough room to squirm around below. Sadly, the hull here is not in that good a shape either. Boats were made to be sailed and not sit idle.

#39 Surf City Racing

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Posted 29 January 2011 - 02:16 PM


Nice story! Pick up the phone and ask, that's all it takes.

This era of boat building is really confusing. The fact that all of these guys started out as friends just building boats for fun and then migrated the whole scene into multiple businesses, makes it really hard to pin down. 40 year old memories don't help either...


No doubt about the nice story . . . I was fascinated, to say the least. As for the 40 y.o. memories, I was actually rather impressed at how well Ron recalled the attributes and details of a boat he had not seen in so long. He is a true craftsman of the trade and superlative guy, to say the least.


Copy! It is amazing. I've interviewed Ron and John Moore for hours... sometimes the stories are a little different, but for the most part the stories align. Bill Lee is the most amazing! He can tell you the hull #, original owner, who that owner sold it to, where it went, and where it is now. Incredible.

#40 DaveK

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Posted 29 January 2011 - 04:03 PM


There's a boat thats been floatimg between Nelsons and Svendsens a couple of times. First time I saw it thought t was maybe the first Moore 24 prototype but its not.. It appears to be from that era, 24 ' ish. Maybe its hull #2. I'll grab a pic next week. (this one doesn't have a cabin) and its not in very good shape.


The one here does not have a cabin really either. It has a flush deck. It's more like a sail hold below decks. Or, if you were a hormonal teen wanting some privacy with your chick, there is enough room to squirm around below. Sadly, the hull here is not in that good a shape either. Boats were made to be sailed and not sit idle.


Great story! Now where abouts might this boat be in this very large state? I'll guess DFW? Hopefully not in Corpus or Houston and I'll doubt Austin.

#41 tendegreealex

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Posted 29 January 2011 - 04:35 PM




Muffin, was that the old Thunder Chicken???



I don't think so... It WAS Ajax however, before that crazy yellow boat dude from A-town downsized....
Could it have been Thunder Chicken after or before Ajax??

Was Thunder chicken the one in SF with the modified transom??

Muffin rockin' it old school at RTC with Staysail, AND reaching strut!!

Sean Trew Rocks!

Thunder chicken was owned by Gordy Cole, right?
Muffin was Ajax, then medusa, then Argo?
I love this boat. sails nice, and cruises awesome. Standup headroom, for me Im 6'1".
Go Muffin!


Thunder Chicken became Eight Bells and moved to Des Moines and then to Olympia. Not sure where or what it is now.

JM

Saw eight bells in Port Towsend...wow, all these boats have so much history.

#42 Pro looper

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Posted 29 January 2011 - 05:18 PM

Great thread again on SC boat building history, I know All of these people
and will see most of them at our winery super bowl party next week.
Would love to see some pictures of the boat that was known as a PI
Steve was one of my teachers when he passed, Another person that is
a true part of the story of PI is Niels Kisling still living here
in SC and sailing often with his wife and kids.
PL.

#43 Surf City Racing

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Posted 29 January 2011 - 09:04 PM

These were taken today. That's the hoist that was originally in the coop.

The newest SC 33:

Posted Image

Posted Image

Posted Image

#44 Surf City Racing

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Posted 29 January 2011 - 09:08 PM

Posted Image

Posted Image

Mr. Ron Moore

Posted Image

#45 Monster Mash

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Posted 29 January 2011 - 10:02 PM

This one has been scooped.

Attached Files



#46 sleddog

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Posted 30 January 2011 - 01:58 AM

The loss of PI, and brothers Steve and Walter Fennel on June 27/28, 1975, was a sad day in Santa Cruz sailing history. With steep seas and 30-40 knts of wind off Sur, PI broached, did come up, and filled. That Nils Kisling survived hypothermia during the night in an open and water filled raft, to be picked up by a tanker inbound to Avila the next morning, is an epic story in itself. PI subsequently washed ashore north of Piedras Blancas and was eventually smashed to bits against the rocks.

The sadness at the Harbor was contrasted to sensationalism by the local paper, which eventually brought in the FBI to investigate unfounded charges. Local hero Walter Olivieri interceded and told the FBI the facts, it was nobody's fault, and the FBI left town.

PI was flush decked, frac rigged, with masthead spinny. If you want to see PI's last picture, go to page 15 at http://www.scyc.org/...06-jun/p01w.pdf

~sleddog

#47 budman

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Posted 30 January 2011 - 02:18 AM

Here are the pics of the SC 24. Man, it has been sitting for A LONG TIME. As noted in previous post, current owner confirmed today I was the last one who sailed her back in 1989. Note the moss on the shrouds, and lines. Anyone see any striking similarity in the transom and rudder to the SC 27? Can you believe this boat weighed only 1800 lbs when she was kicking (balsa core, according to Ron Moore)? As for the sale of the boat to the current owner, it was not Bill Lee as thought. It was purchased in 1974 or 5 from a broker in Balboa, who was selling for the owner (an atty, he could not remember his name - maybe someone knows??) who was planning to buy an SC 27. Anyway, I plan on calling Bill Lee this coming week for a little more poop, as well as trying to retrace some of the white out history and connect the dots on the pedigree.

Attached Files



#48 isma

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Posted 30 January 2011 - 02:26 AM

Thanks. Just out of curiosity, it sailed in TX for 15yrs with CF registration numbers or does TX not require them and they didn't bother to peel them off?

#49 Pedro

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Posted 30 January 2011 - 05:05 AM

Last time I was up there I wondered about that boat. Thought it looked pretty cool (albeit old). Nobody seemed to know much about it other than it was a custom one-off or some such. Should I mention it's at Canyon Lake near San Antonio?

#50 budman

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Posted 30 January 2011 - 02:29 PM

Last time I was up there I wondered about that boat. Thought it looked pretty cool (albeit old). Nobody seemed to know much about it other than it was a custom one-off or some such. Should I mention it's at Canyon Lake near San Antonio?


Que pasa, Pete? Yes, it's at Canyon Lake, sitting on the very same trailer it was hauled from CA on way back when.

.

#51 jww

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Posted 30 January 2011 - 02:45 PM

Budman,am glad you were able to post pictures and put some self appointed authorities on the subject to the back of the line.A little civility on SA would go a long way in improving discussions and promoting sailing topics without the risk of being criticized at the drop of a hat.

#52 DaveK

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Posted 30 January 2011 - 02:53 PM

Ah! LCYC! I wanted to do that distance race yesterday but I got to lazy to pack up the boat and drive down. I can't understand why people just let a boat sit for 20 years. We have a mint hobie 33 that hasn't moved in 10.

Is this boat for sale or what?

#53 budman

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Posted 30 January 2011 - 03:02 PM

JWW - yep, I hear ya.

Dave - nope, it's not for sale - asked the owner yesterday. Same thing he always says. He is attached to the boat in a sentimental way. Nothing wrong with that. Perhaps one of these days the boat will get a restoration. PS - a Hobie 33 would have killed it yesterday!

#54 DaveK

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Posted 30 January 2011 - 04:19 PM

JWW - yep, I hear ya.

Dave - nope, it's not for sale - asked the owner yesterday. Same thing he always says. He is attached to the boat in a sentimental way. Nothing wrong with that. Perhaps one of these days the boat will get a restoration. PS - a Hobie 33 would have killed it yesterday!


Well I guess there is nothing wrong with it. Just a shame though. LCYC has lots of unusual boats sitting around. My aunt and uncle just brought in a newer C27 that's in a slip but they weren't racing. Where you racing spin or non? I see Dr. Hughes was DSQ!? Wonder what happened there. I raced 2 season with him on a J22. Great guy to sail with.

#55 Never was

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Posted 30 January 2011 - 04:29 PM



Mr. Ron Moore

Posted Image



Looking good. You will have to ask him his memories of Freeport Texas... It looks like between Ron and Wahle, Watsonville has more to brag on than artichokes.

Budman, I have seen that boat up there for years, and always assumed it was someone's derivative homebuilt influenced by Moore/O/Lee. Cool to learn the history! Never mind the internet legends. I used to be acquainted with a couple, and believe me, other than their lunchtimes, the internet is the only place they are legends.

Growing up in SB, I remember when Pi was lost, but never knew her design. I wonder if current owner of the orange boat can be inspired by all this attention. She doesn't need to be made bristol to sail again.

Texas is amazingly lax on rego numbers on sailboats. I was once ticketed in Newport Harbor for not having CF numbers on my Laser. In Texas, it is rare to see them on a sailboat of any size, documented vessel or not. Another example of less bureaucracy?

#56 jhc

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Posted 30 January 2011 - 04:57 PM

Those three boats were/are Pi (burned on the beach, central ca), Loose (sitting in storage at Svendsen's, Alameda?), and Nellie Belle (Tx, I cruised aboard NB at Santa Cruz Island, @ 15 yrs old)

All three were dangerously unstable, but would not sink. Not enough lead in the keel to overcome the flotation of the cored hull...

#57 DaveK

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Posted 30 January 2011 - 05:30 PM




Mr. Ron Moore

Posted Image



Looking good. You will have to ask him his memories of Freeport Texas... It looks like between Ron and Wahle, Watsonville has more to brag on than artichokes.

Budman, I have seen that boat up there for years, and always assumed it was someone's derivative homebuilt influenced by Moore/O/Lee. Cool to learn the history! Never mind the internet legends. I used to be acquainted with a couple, and believe me, other than their lunchtimes, the internet is the only place they are legends.

Growing up in SB, I remember when Pi was lost, but never knew her design. I wonder if current owner of the orange boat can be inspired by all this attention. She doesn't need to be made bristol to sail again.

Texas is amazingly lax on rego numbers on sailboats. I was once ticketed in Newport Harbor for not having CF numbers on my Laser. In Texas, it is rare to see them on a sailboat of any size, documented vessel or not. Another example of less bureaucracy?


No.. not so true. Especially on Canyon Lake. They have lots of patrol boats and on Lake Travis as well. I've heard many stories of boats being pulled over during a race. Now aside from that, it seems my uncle who bought the newer C27 got it from Oceanside, CA. He told me a story about how since it's registered with the Coast Guard, he doesn't have to change registration stickers. I just heard this at xmas dinner and maybe somebody else can clarify. Perhaps something like this went on with the LCYC boat and nobody is gonna ticket a boat that hasn't moved in 20 years

#58 Pro looper

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Posted 30 January 2011 - 06:50 PM

Thanks for the photos budman, Will show them to Alan this weekend and see if this
infact his old boat.
PL.

#59 Squalamax

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Posted 30 January 2011 - 06:57 PM

Budman,am glad you were able to post pictures and put some self appointed authorities on the subject to the back of the line.A little civility on SA would go a long way in improving discussions and promoting sailing topics without the risk of being criticized at the drop of a hat.


+1

All these so called experts(Mooreons) on SC history and nobody had heard of this boat before??? Took a guy from TX to set them straight! Good work Budman.

#60 jhc

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Posted 30 January 2011 - 07:11 PM

Thanks for the photos budman, Will show them to Alan this weekend and see if this
infact his old boat.
PL.

wtf? It's alan's boat.

#61 Pro looper

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Posted 30 January 2011 - 07:14 PM

Sorry man just interested in the boat and know the builder,
Mario.

#62 budman

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Posted 30 January 2011 - 07:27 PM

I was elated I had the oppty to sail that boat twice in 1989. I can tell you from personal experience, it is a horse that has been quietly kept in a stall, but when let loose it can do serious damage on the race track. It would be so kewl to see it back on the water, where it was meant to excel. One of these days, that will no doubt be a reality.

In all fairness to this original topic, my apology for side-tracking. I just could not resist sharing a little more of what I perceive to be SC history.

On another note, I was looking at some of Bill Lee's orginal drawings for the SC 27 and further noticed that the bow lights on the 24 are identical. Just too much coincidence in design morph (and conversation I had with Ron) to deny that Lee had direct influence of this boat's existence. Just for grins, I will scan an old pic (circa 1982) of the SC 27 I use to race on for years. Just an ode to Lee's incredible ability to design boats meant to kick ass on the water.

#63 Pro looper

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Posted 30 January 2011 - 07:54 PM

Thanks again Budman, BTW I will be repainting my own little part of SC sailing
history SUMMERTIME in the next few weeks,
Peace Mario.

#64 Great Red Shark

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Posted 30 January 2011 - 09:57 PM

.

Dave - nope, it's not for sale - asked the owner yesterday. Same thing he always says. He is attached to the boat in a sentimental way. Nothing wrong with that.



And they say sailors aren't romantics ! Sweet Zombie Jesus! - the last time the thing sailed Ronald Reagan had just left office and somebody "still has the dream", eh ?

Homie should wake up and smell the 22 years-worth of coffee and either get on the stick or flip that sucker to somebody that will - do a good-enough deal with the right party and probably have a boat to sail on occasion for life without spending a dime or an ounce of effort - which obviously aren't this guy's strong suits.

There are marina slips and storage yards all accross this country that have similar stories - a testament to the resiliance of self-delusion, if nothing else, I'm afraid.

You guys wouldn't believe the tale of this sweet old Mako22 that rotted right into the ground, trailer disintegrated inthe tropical weather, owned by a retiree that was 'gonna fix'er up.....' yeah, full of hornet's nests it got the saw when he finally shucked off his mortal coil. Boats are like life itself - Use it or Lose it.

#65 matrix

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Posted 30 January 2011 - 11:18 PM

Bud, that is a great update and good job on the research. Look forward to hearing the additional details you come up with. Hope the boat gets fixed up and sailing again.

#66 isma

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Posted 30 January 2011 - 11:55 PM

Now aside from that, it seems my uncle who bought the newer C27 got it from Oceanside, CA. He told me a story about how since it's registered with the Coast Guard, he doesn't have to change registration stickers. I just heard this at xmas dinner and maybe somebody else can clarify. Perhaps something like this went on with the LCYC boat and nobody is gonna ticket a boat that hasn't moved in 20 years

Not "registered" with the USCG, documented with the USCG allows you to not display state registration numbers. There was a minimum displacement to qualify for documentation and I'm sure the boat in question on this thread missed it by at least a factor of 2. That said, other states use registration numbers to ensure they have collected sales tax and not much more. In MI, I believe a 3yr sticker is around $12.

#67 Tom Ray

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Posted 30 January 2011 - 11:58 PM

JWW - yep, I hear ya.

Dave - nope, it's not for sale - asked the owner yesterday. Same thing he always says. He is attached to the boat in a sentimental way.


He has a weird way of showing it, IMHO. I think I would show it I love it with a pressure washer. Maybe some of the mold has sentimental value at this point? :lol:

#68 chriscarrera

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Posted 31 January 2011 - 01:26 AM

So how much does the owner want for it, inquiring minds want to know? Surely someone can pick it up and rehab it.
Edit never mind, I see now it's not for sale

#69 condor

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Posted 31 January 2011 - 04:03 PM

love the 33. spent a hell of a lot of time racing the 33 freightrain - even raced it ior in the mdr to puerta vallarta! good boats and probably have a decent rating that makes 'em a good way to go if you can find one in good shape.


I remember a Freighttrain out of CI and SB that was (I thought) a Chance 33. Grey hull?

#70 Nomenclature

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Posted 31 January 2011 - 10:43 PM

Here are the pics of the SC 24.
... as well as trying to retrace some of the white out history and connect the dots on the pedigree.

Thank you for filling in a blank, that most of us never knew existed.
That is an interesting little boat. It is a little bit Moore 24, a little bit Express 27,
and a little bit of Magic. Lots of cool info coming out in these threads,
keep it up!

#71 jocal505

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Posted 01 February 2011 - 12:10 AM

How does the SC33 do against the Soverel 33's?
The one on the classifieds is no longer listed. Specs said 6000 lbs, what kind of rig did they carry?
Thanks.

#72 Great Red Shark

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Posted 01 February 2011 - 12:32 AM


Here are the pics of the SC 24.
... as well as trying to retrace some of the white out history and connect the dots on the pedigree.

Thank you for filling in a blank, that most of us never knew existed.
That is an interesting little boat. It is a little bit Moore 24, a little bit Express 27,
and a little bit of Magic. Lots of cool info coming out in these threads,
keep it up!


A little bit of SC-27 perhaps, but I don't see anything of the Express 27 in there. Carl designed a much more all-purpose boat in that one.

#73 Monster Mash

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Posted 01 February 2011 - 12:35 AM

There's a boat thats been floatimg between Nelsons and Svendsens a couple of times. First time I saw it thought t was maybe the first Moore 24 prototype but its not.. It appears to be from that era, 24 ' ish. Maybe its hull #2. I'll grab a pic next week. (this one doesn't have a cabin) and its not in very good shape.



Took these today.

Attached Files



#74 sleddog

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Posted 01 February 2011 - 12:54 AM

Just to confuse things, according to local Santa Cruz icon Howard Spruit, there were four of the so-called "Santa Cruz-24's."

#1 was PI, and was designed by owner/builder Steve Fennell, with begrudging advice from neighbor Bill Lee. Bill detailed Howard to assist Steve.

#2 was NELLIE, Alan Wirtanen's boat. #3 was LOOSE, which was begun by Craig James, and finished by someone else. LOOSE is likely the boat currently hauled at Alameda Marina. #4 was DOG WASTE, Jeannie Wirtanen's boat.

It is unclear which boat is in TX, but likely either #2 or #4.

Those boats kinda overlapped each other, and no one was keeping track of hull #'s from the mold. In those days we smoked pot and forgot. Now we take pills to remember.

~sleddog

#75 Nomenclature

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Posted 01 February 2011 - 12:57 AM

A little bit of SC-27 perhaps, but I don't see anything of the Express 27 in there.

To my eye,the transom and buttocks lines resemble the Express, and the Frac rig.
The SC27 has much more deadrise and rocker aft, plus slacker bilges.

#76 Somebody Else

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Posted 01 February 2011 - 01:13 AM

A little bit of SC-27 perhaps, but I don't see anything of the Express 27 in there. Carl designed a much more all-purpose boat in that one.

More all purpose? Debatable.

In 1996 the SC27 Nationals was part of the San Francisco NOOD and we started in the class behind the Express 27.
Kept sailing up through them, despite the 5 minute head start they had...

Posted Image
wish I had a better scan... :(

P.S. Ahhh... the Crissy Field tide relief!

#77 Surf City Racing

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Posted 01 February 2011 - 01:16 AM

Just to confuse things, according to local Santa Cruz icon Howard Spruit, there were four of the so-called "Santa Cruz-24's."

#1 was PI, and was designed by owner/builder Steve Fennell, with begrudging advice from neighbor Bill Lee. Bill detailed Howard to assist Steve.

#2 was NELLIE, Alan Wirtanen's boat. #3 was LOOSE, which was begun by Craig James, and finished by someone else. LOOSE is likely the boat currently hauled at Alameda Marina. #4 was DOG WASTE, Jeannie Wirtanen's boat.

It is unclear which boat is in TX, but likely either #2 or #4.

Those boats kinda overlapped each other, and no one was keeping track of hull #'s from the mold. In those days we smoked pot and forgot. Now we take pills to remember.

~sleddog


X2

Nice one, Sled!

Have you talked to Mr. Spruit about his current project?

#78 budman

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Posted 01 February 2011 - 02:58 AM

The mystery has steadily unfolded over these last few days and the other side of the story is ready to unfold. I spoke with three different people today to help fill a void that has coursed this "mystery" 24. I spoke first with the current owner. I asked him exactly how he came to be introduced to this boat. He read a broker advert for a “SC 24” for sale while on a plane from Las Vegas to San Diego back in the mid-70's. He was intrigued enough that he eventually bought the boat in 1976 from the broker in Balboa, CA and trailered it back to TX, where it sits now. As it was being marketed as a SC 24, he has always known the boat to be none other than the same. Heck, it does look quite a bit like a Lee design!

Naturally, today I also picked up the phone and called Bill Lee for a brief conversation and to hopefully shed more light and get additional info on this “mystery” 24. Nice guy, as he agreed to spend a few minutes with me. We had a quaint, yet brief conversation and I asked about this specific boat. He said that he did not build it. True, he did not build it. Alan Wirtanen built it. I asked if he had any influence on building the boat and he politely said I would have to speak with Alan Wirtanen about the project. Ok, a little of a dead end there, so, obviously, a call to Alan would be in order.

Recall that my previous conversation with Ron Moore disclosed that the boat that sits here in TX was built by Alan Wirtanen. So, I found Alan’s number and gave him a ring. After disclosing I was calling about an orange and white boat I believe he had built some decades before, needless to say, he was surprised to hear the boat is still “alive” and was interested in chatting about it. With the assistance of Ron and John Moore, Alan built and finished the boat at Ron’s REEF shop back in early 74. Alan gave me numerous details on the boat and the other 3 hulls built from the same mold - there were 4 in total, as has been revealed in this thread..

So, here is the short version. Yes, Steve Fennell lived across the street from Bill Lee. They were friends and both had a passion for fast boats. They both built, about the same time of each other in vacant lots adjacent to their abodes, very similar looking boats, whose (mid-section) lines were premised on the legendary fast 505. One built a longer (30’) boat, while the other built a shorter (24’) version of the other. I suspect they had many conversations with each other about construction, design, shape, etc. The result after both projects were finished was Lee’s “Magic Bus” and Fennell’s “Pi”. Not too hard to see why a SC 27 looks similar to both these boats and why the association with a SC could be deduced. Just look at the pics and there ARE similarities.

Taking an excerpt directly from Santa Cruz 27’s site, you can see that Lee's SC 27 was influenced by Fennell’s “PI” – excerpt as follows:

“Bill Lee

CUSTOM RACING YACHTS

3700 B Hilltop Road Soquel, California 95073 (408) 475-9627

SANTA CRUZ 27

Our new 27-foot racing sloop has been developed from our years of experience with high performance light displacement racing sailboats. Several of the leaders in the field have had particular influence on our new superboat, includingVan de Stadt's Black Soo Starbuck, George Olson's Grendel, Steve Fennell's (Pi), and Bill Lee's Magic, Witchcraft, Chutzpah and Panache.”

See - http://fastisfun.com...chure/sc27.html

So, it’s not too hard to deduce that the two may have corroborated quite a bit on their initial projects – Magic Bus and PI – and the subsequent influence they had on production of SC boats.

As for hulls, construction, etc . . .Alan said two boats were frac-rigs with masthead kites, while two were masthead rigs. They were as follows: Steve Fennells “PI” (hull #1). Alan’s boat was Hull #2 (masthead version). He said he did not officially name it – it was just an orange and white boat (the one that sits in TX today). However, the current owner told me the boat was marketed with the name "Sunrise" when he bought it. Hull #3 was built by Craig James and he said it was called “Bandit” or something like that, though he could not fully remember. He said his sister’s boat was the last hull built, and was called “Loose”, though they nick-named it “Dog Waste”, as they had used micro-balloons in areas that were brown when laid on and it looked like dog crap, hence the nick name.

So, there ya have it - the facts as known by the parties and relayed to me - second hand news. One may often parrot the info they have heard from another (it's only as good as the source) – as was the case here when I initially spoke of a SC 24 that has been sitting here in TX all these years. The boat was marketed as a SC 24 by the selling broker and the current owner had only this info to relay all these years. These are the facts as known to the parties based on their experiences. The other fact is that the boat does have ties to Bill Lee, whether directly or indirectly – the connection is undeniably there.

My apology to those who were offended by the fact I called it an SC 24, but after all this research, it is easy to see why. It is not a “true SC24”, but rather a predecessor that helped influence subsequent Bill Lee designs. For those who have taken an interest in this thread, I appreciate your patience in bearing me while this “story” unfolded in just a few short days. It has revealed a lot of "lost" detail. A little history is now recovered and a lost boat has found its roots. There is a little more to the story, but I think this covers the “mystery” satisfactorily.

PS – for those of you who have a tendency to tell people to “fuck off”, I think you need to grow up, mature, and learn some manners. The purpose of a forum (IMO) is to help promote, discover and engage, in a positive manner, those issues which help to grow the sport, passion, hobby and love of sailing. Too bad some of your egos get in the way. No offense, just some facts as I see them.

#79 budman

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Posted 01 February 2011 - 03:07 AM


There's a boat thats been floatimg between Nelsons and Svendsens a couple of times. First time I saw it thought t was maybe the first Moore 24 prototype but its not.. It appears to be from that era, 24 ' ish. Maybe its hull #2. I'll grab a pic next week. (this one doesn't have a cabin) and its not in very good shape.



Took these today.


Thanks for sharing. The boat looks to be in fairly good shape from the pics. Also, the keel looks like it has been modified (chord shortened and keel lengthened). Speaking with Alan Witanen today, he believes a nice, long M24-like keel would serve the boat well.

#80 Bcam

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Posted 01 February 2011 - 04:05 AM

A little bit of SC-27 perhaps, but I don't see anything of the Express 27 in there. Carl designed a much more all-purpose boat in that one.

More all purpose? Debatable.

In 1996 the SC27 Nationals was part of the San Francisco NOOD and we started in the class behind the Express 27.
Kept sailing up through them, despite the 5 minute head start they had...

Posted Image
wish I had a better scan... :(

P.S. Ahhh... the Crissy Field tide relief!


Crissy Field Relief! Every time I hear that I think of the job I had in '68 working the traps at the gun club on Crissy Field. I used to sit in the shack and watch the boats, thinking about the tradeoff between tide relief and birdshot!

#81 Boatzilla

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Posted 01 February 2011 - 05:00 AM

This is a great thread.
I would add that the SC33 is a sweet boat. I-5 in Olympia is in immaculate condition. I raced my first season on her and got the sickness... then I went and bought an O25.

Photo by Thera Black

Attached Files

  • Attached File  I5_2.jpg   361.61K   124 downloads


#82 Tom Ray

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Posted 01 February 2011 - 10:39 AM

The mystery has steadily unfolded over these last few days and the other side of the story is ready to unfold. I spoke with three different people today to help fill a void that has coursed this "mystery" 24. I spoke first with the current owner. I asked him exactly how he came to be introduced to this boat. He read a broker advert for a "SC 24" for sale while on a plane from Las Vegas to San Diego back in the mid-70's. He was intrigued enough that he eventually bought the boat in 1976 from the broker in Balboa, CA and trailered it back to TX, where it sits now. As it was being marketed as a SC 24, he has always known the boat to be none other than the same. Heck, it does look quite a bit like a Lee design!

Naturally, today I also picked up the phone and called Bill Lee for a brief conversation and to hopefully shed more light and get additional info on this "mystery" 24. Nice guy, as he agreed to spend a few minutes with me. We had a quaint, yet brief conversation and I asked about this specific boat. He said that he did not build it. True, he did not build it. Alan Wirtanen built it. I asked if he had any influence on building the boat and he politely said I would have to speak with Alan Wirtanen about the project. Ok, a little of a dead end there, so, obviously, a call to Alan would be in order.

Recall that my previous conversation with Ron Moore disclosed that the boat that sits here in TX was built by Alan Wirtanen. So, I found Alan's number and gave him a ring. After disclosing I was calling about an orange and white boat I believe he had built some decades before, needless to say, he was surprised to hear the boat is still "alive" and was interested in chatting about it. With the assistance of Ron and John Moore, Alan built and finished the boat at Ron's REEF shop back in early 74. Alan gave me numerous details on the boat and the other 3 hulls built from the same mold - there were 4 in total, as has been revealed in this thread..

So, here is the short version. Yes, Steve Fennell lived across the street from Bill Lee. They were friends and both had a passion for fast boats. They both built, about the same time of each other in vacant lots adjacent to their abodes, very similar looking boats, whose (mid-section) lines were premised on the legendary fast 505. One built a longer (30') boat, while the other built a shorter (24') version of the other. I suspect they had many conversations with each other about construction, design, shape, etc. The result after both projects were finished was Lee's "Magic Bus" and Fennell's "Pi". Not too hard to see why a SC 27 looks similar to both these boats and why the association with a SC could be deduced. Just look at the pics and there ARE similarities.

Taking an excerpt directly from Santa Cruz 27's site, you can see that Lee's SC 27 was influenced by Fennell's "PI" – excerpt as follows:

"Bill Lee

CUSTOM RACING YACHTS

3700 B Hilltop Road Soquel, California 95073 (408) 475-9627

SANTA CRUZ 27

Our new 27-foot racing sloop has been developed from our years of experience with high performance light displacement racing sailboats. Several of the leaders in the field have had particular influence on our new superboat, includingVan de Stadt's Black Soo Starbuck, George Olson's Grendel, Steve Fennell's (Pi), and Bill Lee's Magic, Witchcraft, Chutzpah and Panache."

See - http://fastisfun.com...chure/sc27.html

So, it's not too hard to deduce that the two may have corroborated quite a bit on their initial projects – Magic Bus and PI – and the subsequent influence they had on production of SC boats.

As for hulls, construction, etc . . .Alan said two boats were frac-rigs with masthead kites, while two were masthead rigs. They were as follows: Steve Fennells "PI" (hull #1). Alan's boat was Hull #2 (masthead version). He said he did not officially name it – it was just an orange and white boat (the one that sits in TX today). However, the current owner told me the boat was marketed with the name "Sunrise" when he bought it. Hull #3 was built by Craig James and he said it was called "Bandit" or something like that, though he could not fully remember. He said his sister's boat was the last hull built, and was called "Loose", though they nick-named it "Dog Waste", as they had used micro-balloons in areas that were brown when laid on and it looked like dog crap, hence the nick name.

So, there ya have it - the facts as known by the parties and relayed to me - second hand news. One may often parrot the info they have heard from another (it's only as good as the source) – as was the case here when I initially spoke of a SC 24 that has been sitting here in TX all these years. The boat was marketed as a SC 24 by the selling broker and the current owner had only this info to relay all these years. These are the facts as known to the parties based on their experiences. The other fact is that the boat does have ties to Bill Lee, whether directly or indirectly – the connection is undeniably there.

My apology to those who were offended by the fact I called it an SC 24, but after all this research, it is easy to see why. It is not a "true SC24", but rather a predecessor that helped influence subsequent Bill Lee designs. For those who have taken an interest in this thread, I appreciate your patience in bearing me while this "story" unfolded in just a few short days. It has revealed a lot of "lost" detail. A little history is now recovered and a lost boat has found its roots. There is a little more to the story, but I think this covers the "mystery" satisfactorily.

PS – for those of you who have a tendency to tell people to "fuck off", I think you need to grow up, mature, and learn some manners. The purpose of a forum (IMO) is to help promote, discover and engage, in a positive manner, those issues which help to grow the sport, passion, hobby and love of sailing. Too bad some of your egos get in the way. No offense, just some facts as I see them.


I really appreciate your effort in learning and telling this great story. Makes an old, mildew-covered boat quite interesting! (Now fuck off and show us some tits.) ;)

#83 tizak

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Posted 01 February 2011 - 04:31 PM


A little bit of SC-27 perhaps, but I don't see anything of the Express 27 in there. Carl designed a much more all-purpose boat in that one.

More all purpose? Debatable.

In 1996 the SC27 Nationals was part of the San Francisco NOOD and we started in the class behind the Express 27.
Kept sailing up through them, despite the 5 minute head start they had...

Posted Image
wish I had a better scan... :(

P.S. Ahhh... the Crissy Field tide relief!


Crissy Field Relief! Every time I hear that I think of the job I had in '68 working the traps at the gun club on Crissy Field. I used to sit in the shack and watch the boats, thinking about the tradeoff between tide relief and birdshot!



I had to go to Army Reserve meetings in that area. Would check in in the morning, go to the PX, buy cheap beer for the crew and then sneak off to meet my Dad and the boat at St. Francis. Raced all day and then got back into uniform to sign out by end of day. Interesting way to attend usually very boring and essentially useless meetings. I don't think the brass knew what to do with us and so we were pretty much left to our own devices - lots of guys hit the bars and strip clubs.

I may have seen you at that skeet range a couple of times - observing the shooting was another way to get through the meetings.

#84 jhc

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Posted 01 February 2011 - 04:32 PM

This is a great thread.
I would add that the SC33 is a sweet boat. I-5 in Olympia is in immaculate condition. I raced my first season on her and got the sickness... then I went and bought an O25.

Photo by Thera Black

Nice to see an image of I-5.

There has been a lot of restorations of the SC/Moore boats. Turns out a lot of people will throw some money after a classic oldie.

A wikipedia type of record of these boats would be an interesting project.

A "Santa Cruz built" boat was most likely not built by SC Yachts. Kind of seems like the people who built these boat's legacy has been hijacked by a questionable business with a misleading name.

#85 Touch of Gray

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Posted 01 February 2011 - 04:42 PM

Another SC mystery. I was told there was this SC 49' 8" boat with an odd rear end that looked a lot like a SC 50, but that it was SC 49 Hull #1. The only pic I've found is in one of the Bill Lee articles that were posted in the Magic/Chutzpah thread. Anybody? Darn this stuff gets interesting.

file:///C:/DOCUME%7E1/bille/LOCALS%7E1/Temp/moz-screenshot-3.pngPosted Image

#86 sledracr

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Posted 01 February 2011 - 04:52 PM

Another SC mystery. I was told there was this SC 49' 8" boat with an odd rear end that looked a lot like a SC 50, but that it was SC 49 Hull #1. The only pic I've found is in one of the Bill Lee articles that were posted in the Magic/Chutzpah thread. Anybody? Darn this stuff gets interesting.

file:///C:/DOCUME%7E1/bille/LOCALS%7E1/Temp/moz-screenshot-3.pngPosted Image



The pic is Blondie, SC-70 #1

#87 jhc

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Posted 01 February 2011 - 04:58 PM

You are asking about "Earl of Mar II" Was an IORised version of a SC/50 built for Kirk Erskine. It had a resemblance to Blondie when viewed from astern.

Forget about the boat... what ever became of Erskine's daughter?

#88 Chris in Santa Cruz, CA

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Posted 01 February 2011 - 05:52 PM

One of my favorite Santa Cruz boats is the SC50 Dasher which I believe was modified for BOC racing. Its got some nice short-handed features. Hard dodger, watertight bulkheads. Cool boat.

#89 maxtrim

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Posted 01 February 2011 - 07:47 PM

One of my favorite Santa Cruz boats is the SC50 Dasher which I believe was modified for BOC racing. Its got some nice short-handed features. Hard dodger, watertight bulkheads. Cool boat.


Sounds like "Mighty Tangaroa" now in Long Beach. I think he picked it up in Hawaii for cheap, kind of odd looking-but then I'm used to the normal SC50s.

#90 _DB

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Posted 01 February 2011 - 08:56 PM

Years ago the Ed was working on an "innerview" with the Wizard himself -- I don't think it every happened. Seems like now would be a good time to try again.

#91 casc27

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Posted 01 February 2011 - 10:29 PM


This is a great thread.
I would add that the SC33 is a sweet boat. I-5 in Olympia is in immaculate condition. I raced my first season on her and got the sickness... then I went and bought an O25.

Photo by Thera Black

Nice to see an image of I-5.

There has been a lot of restorations of the SC/Moore boats. Turns out a lot of people will throw some money after a classic oldie.

A wikipedia type of record of these boats would be an interesting project.

A "Santa Cruz built" boat was most likely not built by SC Yachts. Kind of seems like the people who built these boat's legacy has been hijacked by a questionable business with a misleading name.


SC Yachts has been sold (a couple of times I think, I'm sure some people here can fill us in) and doesn't really have much connection to the legacy from back in the day or the boats that came from the coop. But the SC 27's, 33's, 40's, 50's and 70's are all very much connected to the people behind the legacy. This has been a very interesting thread to follow and thanks to budman for starting it (and irritating enough people to give it some energy).

#92 maxtrim

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Posted 02 February 2011 - 12:16 AM



This is a great thread.
I would add that the SC33 is a sweet boat. I-5 in Olympia is in immaculate condition. I raced my first season on her and got the sickness... then I went and bought an O25.

Photo by Thera Black

Nice to see an image of I-5.

There has been a lot of restorations of the SC/Moore boats. Turns out a lot of people will throw some money after a classic oldie.

A wikipedia type of record of these boats would be an interesting project.

A "Santa Cruz built" boat was most likely not built by SC Yachts. Kind of seems like the people who built these boat's legacy has been hijacked by a questionable business with a misleading name.


SC Yachts has been sold (a couple of times I think, I'm sure some people here can fill us in) and doesn't really have much connection to the legacy from back in the day or the boats that came from the coop. But the SC 27's, 33's, 40's, 50's and 70's are all very much connected to the people behind the legacy. This has been a very interesting thread to follow and thanks to budman for starting it (and irritating enough people to give it some energy).


don't forget the SC52s as well. I know that John De Laura owned SC Yachts for a short time-they were going to go under and his SC52 "Silver Bullet" was not completed-so he bought them, not sure who he sold to though ....

#93 matrix

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Posted 02 February 2011 - 03:24 AM

Bud, Thanks for the research and time you put into this. Great to hear the whole story. Hope you get a good deal on the old TX boat and fix her up.

#94 Devoforedeckus

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Posted 02 February 2011 - 05:15 AM

I've been away on a business trip and I returned home to find this thread on SC 33 & Pi boats. Let me add my 2 cents. I was somewhat involved in finishing the "Loose" boat. The hull without a deck (but with the foam for it) was purchased from Jeannie Wirtanen by Wally Hansen & Jerry Fisher and brought to Alameda. At the time the design was called a SC 24 but we changed it to an Alameda 24 due to the modifications that were made to the design. After the Pi boat was launched and sailing these boats were always referred to as "Pi boats" and just a handful of people ever knew them as SC 24's. Since the plan was to race it in MORA, the keel had to weight 800 lbs not the 250 lbs on the Pi boat. We also felt that the keel placement was too far aft and there was too much sweep to the transom hung rudder (25 degrees). For all of these endeavors we sought the council of another school teacher refugee - Tom Wylie, who graciously helped out. Tom even allowed us to place the up turned hull on top of Moonshadow's deck mold, trace it out and then layup the deck. The transom was reduced to 10 degrees sweep and one of Tom's younger employees (David Hulse) made his first ever sailboat mast, which is still with the boat. This boat was raced continually for 20 years (74-94) on SF bay and out in the "Midget Ocean" with quite a few coastal races as well, so when people say they have never heard of this design it's because they were called "Pi boats" by the rest of the sailors competing against them at the time. The Loose boat is still owned by Jerry Fisher and if you want one, make it yourself just like he did.

Since we are talking Santa Cruz history here are some relevant boats to check out:
Sopwith Camel
Sallylightfoot/Cumulus/Flying Englishman
Third Reef

And when you talk to Bill Lee ask him about the R boat he sailed at full speed into the pier at Newport Beach.

#95 radicalmove

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Posted 02 February 2011 - 05:50 AM

Interesting you mention 3rd Reef. If I remember
correctly it was in Chicago for a while. It was
listed on scratch sheets as a Santa Cruz 33 I think,
but didn't look anything like the SC33. City Limits
had been a pretty successfuly SC 33 in Chicago. It
was a very low freeboard boat. Always wondered
what exactly it was. Any thoughts, ideas, suggestions ?

#96 isma

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Posted 02 February 2011 - 06:00 AM

Interesting you mention 3rd Reef. If I remember
correctly it was in Chicago for a while. It was
listed on scratch sheets as a Santa Cruz 33 I think,
but didn't look anything like the SC33. City Limits
had been a pretty successfuly SC 33 in Chicago. It
was a very low freeboard boat. Always wondered
what exactly it was. Any thoughts, ideas, suggestions ?

City Lights has an obscene amount of freeboard compared to the 27. There's a picture on Larry's thread but the 33 stood out from other SC boats because of its freeboard.

#97 Pro looper

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Posted 02 February 2011 - 12:56 PM

Thirdreef is a Jim Foley design 33 footer super fast Boat,
sailed on ita few times. Made with Clark foam if I remember right
PL.

#98 budman

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Posted 02 February 2011 - 03:53 PM

I've been away on a business trip and I returned home to find this thread on SC 33 & Pi boats. Let me add my 2 cents. I was somewhat involved in finishing the "Loose" boat. The hull without a deck (but with the foam for it) was purchased from Jeannie Wirtanen by Wally Hansen & Jerry Fisher and brought to Alameda. At the time the design was called a SC 24 but we changed it to an Alameda 24 due to the modifications that were made to the design. After the Pi boat was launched and sailing these boats were always referred to as "Pi boats" and just a handful of people ever knew them as SC 24's. Since the plan was to race it in MORA, the keel had to weight 800 lbs not the 250 lbs on the Pi boat. We also felt that the keel placement was too far aft and there was too much sweep to the transom hung rudder (25 degrees). For all of these endeavors we sought the council of another school teacher refugee - Tom Wylie, who graciously helped out. Tom even allowed us to place the up turned hull on top of Moonshadow's deck mold, trace it out and then layup the deck. The transom was reduced to 10 degrees sweep and one of Tom's younger employees (David Hulse) made his first ever sailboat mast, which is still with the boat. This boat was raced continually for 20 years (74-94) on SF bay and out in the "Midget Ocean" with quite a few coastal races as well, so when people say they have never heard of this design it's because they were called "Pi boats" by the rest of the sailors competing against them at the time. The Loose boat is still owned by Jerry Fisher and if you want one, make it yourself just like he did.

Since we are talking Santa Cruz history here are some relevant boats to check out:
Sopwith Camel
Sallylightfoot/Cumulus/Flying Englishman
Third Reef

And when you talk to Bill Lee ask him about the R boat he sailed at full speed into the pier at Newport Beach.


Devo - Thanks for filling in more gaps in the story. There was most certainly some confusion (and BS that had been called) about a so called "SC24" that may have existed. Your first hand $.02 is worth more than a buck in helping to substantiate the history of these boats and how they appeared on the scene. Thanks for tossing in the change!!!

#99 Surf City Racing

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Posted 02 February 2011 - 04:06 PM

In 1968, George Olson, then 29 and a longtime surfer, surfboard designer and sailor of the endless long swells of Monterey Bay, California decided to create the boat that would win the "proposed" under 30 foot Transpac.


This was long before he became famous as the creator/co creator of the Santa Cruz 27, Olson 25, 29, 30, 34, and 40. In fact, in 1968, George was employed in the rather humble occupation of 'hod carrier', the guy who carries bricks up a ladder for the mason.


"I played around with boats as a hobby," he says.


To George's way of thinking (and budget), the challenges to create a boat with the same keel, displacement and sail area as a Cal 20, but longer and faster, with the most waterline possible. This was an extension of the thinking that created Sopwith Camel, a maxed-out, masthead 'Cal 20-plus' he'd built with Wayne Kocher. The previous year, they'd sailed it to victory in the MORA long distance race to Newport Beach.




From here.



#100 budman

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Posted 02 February 2011 - 04:31 PM

In 1968, George Olson, then 29 and a longtime surfer, surfboard designer and sailor of the endless long swells of Monterey Bay, California decided to create the boat that would win the "proposed" under 30 foot Transpac.


This was long before he became famous as the creator/co creator of the Santa Cruz 27, Olson 25, 29, 30, 34, and 40. In fact, in 1968, George was employed in the rather humble occupation of 'hod carrier', the guy who carries bricks up a ladder for the mason.


"I played around with boats as a hobby," he says.


To George's way of thinking (and budget), the challenges to create a boat with the same keel, displacement and sail area as a Cal 20, but longer and faster, with the most waterline possible. This was an extension of the thinking that created Sopwith Camel, a maxed-out, masthead 'Cal 20-plus' he'd built with Wayne Kocher. The previous year, they'd sailed it to victory in the MORA long distance race to Newport Beach.




From here.



Thanks for sharing SCR. As the article discloses, the evolution of that effort was the Moore 24. Ron refers to the boat (M24) as more of a "canoe", as per my conversation with him last week.




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