450 replies to this topic

[sailingorder1]

what do you think, a smaller, irc optimized, version of the soto 40?

http://www.longitude....com/page16.php

[Christian]

what do you think, a smaller, irc optimized, version of the soto 40?

http://www.longitude....com/page16.php

hope not

[us7070]

from the web site...

an enormous working cockpit, excellent crew ergonomics, a lifting keel, more of those sexy hiking
wings and a very stable racing platform.

doesn't really sound like it's irc optimized.

[Somebody Else]

Thank goodness no one has posted about this on SA yet!!

Oh, wait...

[Great Red Shark]

It will be interesting to see the details and how it compares to the likes of the A28, C30-32,FT-10.

Mmmmm.....wings.

[Somebody Else]

Mmmmm.....wings.

Just think of them as a styling exercise and just let it go.

[jim lee]

UPDATE: Two Soto 30s pre-sold and will be sailing at the Hamilton island Race Week in August 2011.

How do people like these get "pre-orders" from a idea/drawing? I really wish I could crack that nut!

-jim lee

[Somebody Else]

How do people get "pre-orders" from a idea/drawing? I wish I could crack that nut!

They like what the designer has done before.
They get people with similar interests to co-commit.

[StayinStrewn]

original Soto 40 thread

good to have a 30 thread of it's own though....LT, what's news?

[Yogurt]

Are there any drawings or renderings we can look at Tim??

Should be a awesome concept.

[LongTim]

Hi Anarchists

Well, nice to have a home here for the Soto 30, maybe a few weeks early but love the speculation. I'm sorta in your shoes at the moment as I haven't seen any final drawings. BUT if you took most of the styling cues from the Soto 40 I think you'd be heading in the right direction. Priority-wise fast, simple OD racing is going to be on top of the list. I am guessing IRC will be somewhere near the bottom. Fast, light 30 foot yachts don't usually make the IRC gods happy.

Yes, we do have two orders and a few others threatening. But, hey, I figure most people are going to see the specifics before they get their cheque book out. Maybe they know something I don't.

I am tipping that JSA won't be steering too far away from a successful racing concept. But think more 'big dinghy' rather than 'small keelboat' and I reckon you will be on the right track.

There is a lot of work going into the specification and sailing systems and I am confident that the price point will be another great attraction for the Class.

Be assured that we will slotting the smaller Soto into the same regattas as the 40 to give the Class a kick off.

Let's all hope that it captures a few sailor's imaginations and we can get a few out onto the water from the middle of this year. I will get info to everyone as soon as it's made available.

Tim

[Teaky]

Sounds like a sportsboat to me.

[206]

what are the main conceptual differences between soto 30 and melges 32?

more offshore capable?

cheaper?

[steveromagnino]

Soto 30 = steroids + shaw 650 + soto 40 + bit of scaling = serious fun

We were just discussing the soto 40s over the weekend; the concept of a decent 40 footer circuit is now a reality in asia even in irc because there is now a core of 6-8 boats already all in the same end of the irc rule. Hoping for top of the gulf that the phuket owner will be ready in time; nice warm up for samui.

A trailerable 30 will be a damn nice addition for the grey beard big guts brigade here that want to race at the speed of a sportsboat without the chance of spilling too much beer at 2011 prices, plus the lax safety standards and a slight interior means u can do the raja muda type races as well. Sleeping bag on the rail type stuff.

Looking fwd to seeing this beast emerge....I want to see these guys race on a reach in 25 knots, see what happens :-)

[LongTim]

Soto 30 = steroids + shaw 650 + soto 40 + bit of scaling = serious fun

We were just discussing the soto 40s over the weekend; the concept of a decent 40 footer circuit is now a reality in asia even in irc because there is now a core of 6-8 boats already all in the same end of the irc rule. Hoping for top of the gulf that the phuket owner will be ready in time; nice warm up for samui.

A trailerable 30 will be a damn nice addition for the grey beard big guts brigade here that want to race at the speed of a sportsboat without the chance of spilling too much beer at 2011 prices, plus the lax safety standards and a slight interior means u can do the raja muda type races as well. Sleeping bag on the rail type stuff.

Looking fwd to seeing this beast emerge....I want to see these guys race on a reach in 25 knots, see what happens :-)

I want to see that too. Trailerable? Well, overwidth for sure but still a fairly light prospect for dragging around with a permit.

[LongTim]

what are the main conceptual differences between soto 30 and melges 32?

more offshore capable?

cheaper?

I know there will be inevitable comparisons with the Melges 32. Probably best to await the arrival of final concept and details so you can compare your brains out. But it will be a more contemporary design, obviously, a larger cockpit, less crew, the same square-top main/hiking wings/flush deck you've seen on the 40. Looks to me like a bit of a family of racing ODs is evolving so those waiting for an Argentinian Beneteau 30 would be seriously disappointed. Faster than a Melges 32? No idea, but probably downwind. Cheaper than a Melges 32? I am betting a LOT less but let' see the final specs. Does half price sound interesting?

As with the 40 we're going to run our own race. There are some great 30 footers already out there and we wish them all luck in a difficult economic climate in the marine industry. We're are doing our own thing and are delighted we have JSA in our corner coming up with some new designs that seem to polarise opinion - people either love or hate the 40. Sure there will be similar polarised opinion for the 30. Tim

[Christian]

Soto 30 = steroids + shaw 650 + soto 40 + bit of scaling = serious fun

We were just discussing the soto 40s over the weekend; the concept of a decent 40 footer circuit is now a reality in asia even in irc because there is now a core of 6-8 boats already all in the same end of the irc rule. Hoping for top of the gulf that the phuket owner will be ready in time; nice warm up for samui.

A trailerable 30 will be a damn nice addition for the grey beard big guts brigade here that want to race at the speed of a sportsboat without the chance of spilling too much beer at 2011 prices, plus the lax safety standards and a slight interior means u can do the raja muda type races as well. Sleeping bag on the rail type stuff.

Looking fwd to seeing this beast emerge....I want to see these guys race on a reach in 25 knots, see what happens :-)

I want to see that too. Trailerable? Well, overwidth for sure but still a fairly light prospect for dragging around with a permit.

Any chance to think about foldable wings so it can be trailered without permits (been done a number of times before on similar hull shapes) ?????????????

[Yogurt]

Soto 30 = steroids + shaw 650 + soto 40 + bit of scaling = serious fun

We were just discussing the soto 40s over the weekend; the concept of a decent 40 footer circuit is now a reality in asia even in irc because there is now a core of 6-8 boats already all in the same end of the irc rule. Hoping for top of the gulf that the phuket owner will be ready in time; nice warm up for samui.

A trailerable 30 will be a damn nice addition for the grey beard big guts brigade here that want to race at the speed of a sportsboat without the chance of spilling too much beer at 2011 prices, plus the lax safety standards and a slight interior means u can do the raja muda type races as well. Sleeping bag on the rail type stuff.

Looking fwd to seeing this beast emerge....I want to see these guys race on a reach in 25 knots, see what happens :-)

I want to see that too. Trailerable? Well, overwidth for sure but still a fairly light prospect for dragging around with a permit.

Any chance to think about foldable wings so it can be trailered without permits (been done a number of times before on similar hull shapes) ?????????????

Adds a shit load of weight only to save you driving down to a licensing centre twice a year to get a permit.

[simbert]

what a disappointment, I was expecting a T-boned Soto 40 photo, lol.

[Christian]

Soto 30 = steroids + shaw 650 + soto 40 + bit of scaling = serious fun

We were just discussing the soto 40s over the weekend; the concept of a decent 40 footer circuit is now a reality in asia even in irc because there is now a core of 6-8 boats already all in the same end of the irc rule. Hoping for top of the gulf that the phuket owner will be ready in time; nice warm up for samui.

A trailerable 30 will be a damn nice addition for the grey beard big guts brigade here that want to race at the speed of a sportsboat without the chance of spilling too much beer at 2011 prices, plus the lax safety standards and a slight interior means u can do the raja muda type races as well. Sleeping bag on the rail type stuff.

Looking fwd to seeing this beast emerge....I want to see these guys race on a reach in 25 knots, see what happens :-)

I want to see that too. Trailerable? Well, overwidth for sure but still a fairly light prospect for dragging around with a permit.

Any chance to think about foldable wings so it can be trailered without permits (been done a number of times before on similar hull shapes) ?????????????

Adds a shit load of weight only to save you driving down to a licensing centre twice a year to get a permit.

The weight gain is fairly modest for a 30 footer. In the US you need a permit (and that is one for each state you travel through) for each trip - and there are limitations to the hours of the day that you can travel in some states - kinda a PITA

[LongTim]

Soto 30 = steroids + shaw 650 + soto 40 + bit of scaling = serious fun

We were just discussing the soto 40s over the weekend; the concept of a decent 40 footer circuit is now a reality in asia even in irc because there is now a core of 6-8 boats already all in the same end of the irc rule. Hoping for top of the gulf that the phuket owner will be ready in time; nice warm up for samui.

A trailerable 30 will be a damn nice addition for the grey beard big guts brigade here that want to race at the speed of a sportsboat without the chance of spilling too much beer at 2011 prices, plus the lax safety standards and a slight interior means u can do the raja muda type races as well. Sleeping bag on the rail type stuff.

Looking fwd to seeing this beast emerge....I want to see these guys race on a reach in 25 knots, see what happens :-)

I want to see that too. Trailerable? Well, overwidth for sure but still a fairly light prospect for dragging around with a permit.

Any chance to think about foldable wings so it can be trailered without permits (been done a number of times before on similar hull shapes) ?????????????

I believe that foldable wings have been looked at and pretty much binned due to the added complexity and weight. 'Wings' may not add a lot of weight to some more moderate 30 footers but they would add a noticeable proportion of weight to a very light 30 like this. Also, the 'wings' on the Soto 30 will be more of the hiking variety and quite moderate unlike some other designs where they dominate the yacht's capacity to gain stability. Being able to fit a 30 footer on the road and in a container (without having to top them on their side) has advantages but the designer has really gone out to design the fastest little OD monster he can without regard to either rating rules or road rules.

We are happy to accept criticism on both counts but there is no way any 30 footer is going to suit everyone. If you get the pleasure of meeting Javier Soto Acebal one day you would recognise the enormous amount of work he puts into his designs. He uses all the latest computer software as well as a pencil, his vast experience and a keen eye. I am confidant he will come up with something cool.

But it's really great to hear everyone's ideas and be assured that every single idea and comment is being passed on and read! Keep it up.

[Christian]

Soto 30 = steroids + shaw 650 + soto 40 + bit of scaling = serious fun

We were just discussing the soto 40s over the weekend; the concept of a decent 40 footer circuit is now a reality in asia even in irc because there is now a core of 6-8 boats already all in the same end of the irc rule. Hoping for top of the gulf that the phuket owner will be ready in time; nice warm up for samui.

A trailerable 30 will be a damn nice addition for the grey beard big guts brigade here that want to race at the speed of a sportsboat without the chance of spilling too much beer at 2011 prices, plus the lax safety standards and a slight interior means u can do the raja muda type races as well. Sleeping bag on the rail type stuff.

Looking fwd to seeing this beast emerge....I want to see these guys race on a reach in 25 knots, see what happens :-)

I want to see that too. Trailerable? Well, overwidth for sure but still a fairly light prospect for dragging around with a permit.

Any chance to think about foldable wings so it can be trailered without permits (been done a number of times before on similar hull shapes) ?????????????

I believe that foldable wings have been looked at and pretty much binned due to the added complexity and weight. 'Wings' may not add a lot of weight to some more moderate 30 footers but they would add a noticeable proportion of weight to a very light 30 like this. Also, the 'wings' on the Soto 30 will be more of the hiking variety and quite moderate unlike some other designs where they dominate the yacht's capacity to gain stability. Being able to fit a 30 footer on the road and in a container (without having to top them on their side) has advantages but the designer has really gone out to design the fastest little OD monster he can without regard to either rating rules or road rules.

We are happy to accept criticism on both counts but there is no way any 30 footer is going to suit everyone. If you get the pleasure of meeting Javier Soto Acebal one day you would recognise the enormous amount of work he puts into his designs. He uses all the latest computer software as well as a pencil, his vast experience and a keen eye. I am confidant he will come up with something cool.

But it's really great to hear everyone's ideas and be assured that every single idea and comment is being passed on and read! Keep it up.

Take a look at Thompson 830 and the Phuket sport 8 - both very light and fast boats with folding wings - the folding part does not add much weight at all

[LongTim]

We are launching the entire Soto 30 project - the yacht, marketing, special offers and stuff on February 23. The countdown is on....

[StayinStrewn]

cool!

[Ryley]

It must be nice to be so flush with cash that you can pre-order a boat for which there is currently no pricing available..

[jackdaw]

We're are doing our own thing and are delighted we have JSA in our corner coming up with some new designs that seem to polarise opinion - people either love or hate the 40. Sure there will be similar polarised opinion for the 30. Tim

Nothing wrong with that. People who just 'like' don't buy. People that love do. And the good thing is, people that hate do not count as a negative sale.

The designer of the Audi TT said the exact same thing.

[nemesis]

what are the main conceptual differences between soto 30 and melges 32?

more offshore capable?

cheaper?

I know there will be inevitable comparisons with the Melges 32. Probably best to await the arrival of final concept and details so you can compare your brains out. But it will be a more contemporary design, obviously, a larger cockpit, less crew, the same square-top main/hiking wings/flush deck you've seen on the 40. Looks to me like a bit of a family of racing ODs is evolving so those waiting for an Argentinian Beneteau 30 would be seriously disappointed. Faster than a Melges 32? No idea, but probably downwind. Cheaper than a Melges 32? I am betting a LOT less but let' see the final specs. Does half price sound interesting?

As with the 40 we're going to run our own race. There are some great 30 footers already out there and we wish them all luck in a difficult economic climate in the marine industry. We're are doing our own thing and are delighted we have JSA in our corner coming up with some new designs that seem to polarise opinion - people either love or hate the 40. Sure there will be similar polarised opinion for the 30. Tim

Yes. Yes it does sound interesting. (Why am I the first person to notice that little bombshell?)

Preparing to stand by.

[LongTim]

It must be nice to be so flush with cash that you can pre-order a boat for which there is currently no pricing available..

It may be that there have been slightly longer discussions with these people

[The Advocate]

Or that they are dealers boats....

[LongTim]

Or that they are dealers boats....

Not in this case. As with the Soto 40, there will be no 'dealers'. Same business model where everything is sold direct from the manufacturer. The wonders of the internet and cheap airfares! Tim

[The Advocate]

Please refer to my use of the term dealer as being a very loose one Tim.

[LongTim]

Please refer to my use of the term dealer as being a very loose one Tim.

All cool. I get where you're coming from

[pep]

I look forward to hear more about this one.
The Melges32 is a bit too steep in price to replace the mumm/F30s.

Pics & price please!

[LongTim]

If anyone wants to be on the mailing list to get price and spec info when the yacht is released just click on.... www.longitudeyachts.com/page16.php and we'll make sure we get you some stuff on the big day.

[LongTim]

Seven sleeps left to the first announcements about the new Soto 30. I am travelling to Buenos Aires this Friday to gather all the final info and specs ready for the new website and e-brochures, etc. Also doing a lot of interviews with people in the Soto 30 team so you can hear from the players and their explanation about the new design.

We'll be sending out stuff to all the people on our mailing list on Feb 23, although I just realised I'll be somewhere over the middle of the Pacific Ocean at the time... mmm, do they have wireless in Economy on Aerolineas Argentinas?

We are absolutely aware of the many fine 30 footers around and hope we can add an interesting alternative. I'm somewhere between excited and shit-scared.

[Great Red Shark]

I'm somewhere between excited and shit-scared.

That's where many of us do our best work.

[Soley]

I have to say I am still on the fence about the "sexiness" of the mini wings......

[LongTim]

I have to say I am still on the fence about the "sexiness" of the mini wings......

Well, let me share with you that the 'winglets' have been a point of contention in the design and management groups. From a marketing point of view I love the idea of a 'family look' to the 30 and 40 and would like to maintain the same gunwale wings. In reality they're really comfortable to sit on and tuck your legs under - a lot nicer and safer than conventional gunwales. But the value, from a design point of view, isn't as strong as on the Soto 40. So, will the new Soto 30 have winglets or not? The designers will win that argument and my marketing preferences in that regard will be surely ignored!! lol.

At the end of the day we want a yacht that will fulfil the brief of a modern yacht that is fast, fun and not constrained by handicaps. There are plenty of excellent alternatives that provide for those that want a cabin, accommodation and something more 'family friendly'. I hope the Soto 30 ends up with the winglets - I sorta like them for a variety of reasons. It's a personal thing.

If you don't like the wings, what sort of gunwale like would you prefer? I'll happily pass on your comments. We want you to love the yacht so your feedback is valid and valued.

We will know more within the week.

[Somebody Else]

The winglets keep things dryer on deck.

[LongTim]

The winglets keep things dryer on deck.

Didn't even think about that. Good point. I'll put you on my team for the Great Debate

[lampara]

from Juanpa Cadario Blog

[LongTim]

[quote name='lampara' timestamp='1297771653' post='3165924']
from Juanpa Cadario Blog

Different project.... not a Soto 30

[lampara]

oops sorry, i got confused this is the soto 33

[LongTim]

oops sorry, i got confused this is the soto 33

No probs.... it's raining Sotos!

[Tunnel Rat]

Large draft and not much beam.......

[LongTim]

Large draft and not much beam.......

The Soto 30? Me?

??? Tim

[Somtam Cowboy]

Large draft and not much beam.......

The Soto 30? Me?

??? Tim

Will be after Sunday, and all that Birthday cake....

[LongTim]

Large draft and not much beam.......

The Soto 30? Me?

??? Tim

Will be after Sunday, and all that Birthday cake....

I think in that case it will be a lot of draft and even more beam! Thanks for remembering. Ummm, me thinks you have one of those Soto 40 Calendars with the little reminder. Please, don't spend any more than $500 on my present. $600 tops.

Hope business is good in the Land of a Thousand 7/11s.

[LongTim]

About those winglets... heard on the grapevine that the new design will see a return of the hiking winglets, just like the 40. For those that don't like them you might have to squint your eyes and pretend they're not there. They certainly make hiking more comfortable, drier on the deck and make the yacht instantly recognisable.

I leave for Buenos Aires on Friday. So, any last suggestions on design or specification anyone would like me to pass on? Really, every single suggestion will be passed on. And I've put the launch of the design back one day because I will be somewhere over Antarctica on Wed 23. (The shortest distance from Buenos Aires and Melbourne is over Antarctica)

Then again there has been cases of committees/forums designing 'horses' and coming up with 'camels' in the past so, to a very large degree, we have been leaving the astonishing Javier Soto Acebal to weave his magic on the lines.

[Swanno (Ohf Shore)]

from Juanpa Cadario Blog

very radical bow section

[LongTim]

from Juanpa Cadario Blog

very radical bow section

Umm, not the Soto 30. But, yes, this yacht has a fairly blunt bow entry.

[Mojounwin]

I like the idea of mini wings. Will make it look distinctively different from the others in the 30ft range. As you say, it will also ensure it keeps the family appearence.

Cheers
Mojo

[LongTim]

I like the idea of mini wings. Will make it look distinctively different from the others in the 30ft range. As you say, it will also ensure it keeps the family appearence.

Cheers
Mojo

Have to agree with you. Like cars, it's getting harder and harder to generate something 'unique' about a new boat these days. There are some things you have to have, shapes all generated by the same computer programs, some specs the sailing public expect these days and certain functions a racing yacht has to have. So there's less room to wriggle for a designer these days as we reach the thin end of the wedge regarding going faster (in a monohull). So, yeah, I see the 'winglets' a bit like the grill and badge on the front of cars. Something that says 'hi, I'm a Soto racing design'. Regardless of wings and things, we all look forward to a well-manenred yacht that will plane like a mad-thing downwind and provide excellent bang for buck.

Next time I read the posts here I'll be in Buenos Aires. My trusty iPhone tells me it's going to be 28 - 31 degrees with storms... may as well be in Melbourne! (By the way, that's Celsius folks!) I'm taking a very nice bottle of red for the designer cause we've seriously ruined his summer holidays

[DEAD MONEY]

WoW.....3 pages and NO ONE has asked.....wait........wait.......OK...






































































What Does it Rate ??

Sorry....I could NOT Help myself.....

I'll guess 66 PHRF without seeing it.....LOL

[LongTim]

What Does it Rate ??

Sorry....I could NOT Help myself.....

I'll guess 66 PHRF without seeing it.....LOL
[/quote]

I am delighted to be able to reply, with full confidence and my head held high.....

I HAVE ABSOLUTELY NO IDEA.

We might need someone in the US to crunch some numbers for us when the numbers and specs are out to see if we can get a number. PHRF is a bit of a mystery to me. Same with IRC, etc... we'll get some numbers crunched and provide them when possible. I can, again, confidently bet that the IRC rating will be a nightmare. But if we add another tonne of lead, five bunks, an aluminium mast, headroom, a stove and pretty curtains it might help.

[Brian]

What Does it Rate ??

Sorry....I could NOT Help myself.....

I'll guess 66 PHRF without seeing it.....LOL

I am delighted to be able to reply, with full confidence and my head held high.....

I HAVE ABSOLUTELY NO IDEA.

We might need someone in the US to crunch some numbers for us when the numbers and specs are out to see if we can get a number. PHRF is a bit of a mystery to me. Same with IRC, etc... we'll get some numbers crunched and provide them when possible. I can, again, confidently bet that the IRC rating will be a nightmare. But if we add another tonne of lead, five bunks, an aluminium mast, headroom, a stove and pretty curtains it might help.

Dunno, I would expect it to come in at least as fast as the Farr 30, no?

[LongTim]

What Does it Rate ??

Sorry....I could NOT Help myself.....

I'll guess 66 PHRF without seeing it.....LOL

I am delighted to be able to reply, with full confidence and my head held high.....

I HAVE ABSOLUTELY NO IDEA.

We might need someone in the US to crunch some numbers for us when the numbers and specs are out to see if we can get a number. PHRF is a bit of a mystery to me. Same with IRC, etc... we'll get some numbers crunched and provide them when possible. I can, again, confidently bet that the IRC rating will be a nightmare. But if we add another tonne of lead, five bunks, an aluminium mast, headroom, a stove and pretty curtains it might help.

Dunno, I would expect it to come in at least as fast as the Farr 30, no?

At least I am confident of that. Then again, the Farr/Mumm 30 is still an excellent yacht. But this is a little different, an evolution, new generation of gear, etc. A bit stiffer, more advanced construction and all that asymmetrical jazz. The polars will paint a better picture than my words. So let the facts speak for themselves.

[LongTim]

Spent yesterday with the designer, Javier Soto Acebal - what a gentleman! We went over many of the plans of the Soto 30. Of course there were hundreds of questions but most things are now locked in place. There are some things about the design I found not quite what I expected. Many others were exactly what I expected. The 3D renderings are now being prepared from the plans for release this week so the rest of the world can see the design for the first time. Will you be surprised? Probably not, but maybe a little unusual. At it's heart it's a quite simple yacht but with a bit of Argentinian flare... I like it But beneath the basic shape I can see a really well-rounded yacht with good performance around the course.

Chine √
Wings - well sort of
Bloody large cockpit √
Plenty of sail √
Flush deck √
Lifting keel √
Auxiliary propulsion - a bit of a surprise


Also was taken out on Soto 40 # 2 today (Patagonia) for my birthday sail off the coast of Buenos Aires. 18 or so knots and a great ride in the shallow, brown choppy waters of the 'River Plate'. Will post some video in the next few days, elsewhere of course. Also got to check out the 'home-grown' Evolution software that really drives the yacht and the way you interface with the electronics. 90% of the Soto 40 fleet use this software and I really enjoyed the chance to see it in action.... sailing is changing and we need to get our heads around this stuff or be left behind.

As usual I am deeply impressed with this yacht and only wish more people would take the time to really check it out. Hopefully, now that the Class is reaching many other parts of the world, that will happen soon. We had a prospective client on board and I can see M Boats adding another order I think

I can only hope that the Soto 30 is as well-balanced and fun to sail. We'll all know soon.

[Somtam Cowboy]

Happy Birthday Tim.
Nice present

[Fiacas]

TIM:
Please tell all the true, you are just puting smoke in the air, and traing to confuse people, if not just put a render, no water lines, but there is not just a single render...and dont use renders from S40, or S33, because it has te rudder out of the stern
Up to the moment there is no a single line drawn of the Soto 30, only a side view, there are not going to be full water lines, until 3 to 4 months almost, its imposible to have a boat in the water may/june, like its says in http://www.longitude....com/page16.php
Im the first fan of Soto boats i have rece in Rio de Janeiro brasil in one of them, i leave in Madrid, and like S40 to be in Med Cup!! but S30 is just a concept at the moment.
I talk to Javier Soto by phone all about this.

Regars

Alfonso.

[LongTim]

TIM:
Please tell all the true, you are just puting smoke in the air, and traing to confuse people, if not just put a render, no water lines, but there is not just a single render...and dont use renders from S40, or S33, because it has te rudder out of the stern
Up to the moment there is no a single line drawn of the Soto 30, only a side view, there are not going to be full water lines, until 3 to 4 months almost, its imposible to have a boat in the water may/june, like its says in http://www.longitude....com/page16.php
Im the first fan of Soto boats i have rece in Rio de Janeiro brasil in one of them, i leave in Madrid, and like S40 to be in Med Cup!! but S30 is just a concept at the moment.
I talk to Javier Soto by phone all about this.

Regars

Alfonso.

I wake up to this... uurrgghh. Sadly Alfonso, wrong on all counts. My meetings with the designer seemed real as did all the discussions with the management group. We have said all along that we will launch the design on Thursday and that's exactly what's happening. I will let my integrity live and die by meeting all our other deadlines but proposed dates haven't been made lightly. The lines have been delivered and 3D renderings are being put together as I speak. But the lines are just part of the process... developing the OD rules, negotiating with suppliers, working out the final price, talking and talking and talking to the factory, arguing over the propulsion, sorting out the shipping, preparing marketing plans and figuring out the best way to sell the boat. Having the lines (which I am looking at now) are just a small part of the total project.

We've been working on this for a LONG time and I'm not here in Buenos Aires sipping coffee in San Telmo!

I fully acknowledge everyone 'having a crack' in these public forums but, please, get the facts right first mate.

[StayinStrewn]

its all good Tim...looking forward to Thursday!!

[The Advocate]

What happend to the 23rd, that's tomorrow here!

Waiting for the mail....

[LongTim]

What happend to the 23rd, that's tomorrow here!

Waiting for the mail....

Well, here's the goss...slightly out of my control. I am stuck at Buenos Aires airport with flight delayed because of the Christchurch earthquakes. Something about Pacific flights to Auckland using Christchurch as their emergency alternative, etc, etc.

So I'm going to get back about 6 - 10 hours late. (Then again I have no idea what's going to happen to my connections at Sydney airport....) But everyone who got on the mailing list WILL get their toys tomorrow, albeit a bit late. Worst case scenario will be the day after, depending where you are in the world.

Ah, the joys of international travel. You'd love it here at Buenos Aires airport. 5am here and there's only been ONE shop open all night for food... well, something like food. Get me on that plane.

So thanks for the hurry up. We're on the case.

[The Advocate]

You're excused.









This time...

[jpchirinos]

The new Soto 30 arrives

The design for the new Soto 30 has just been launched bringing a smaller version of the successful Soto 40 to the race track. The design shares many of the design features of it’s larger sister and M Boats’ Javier Mendez believes it will appeal to similar racing sailors who have been seeking an alternative to handicap sailing.
“The design retains many of the design cues from the Soto 40 like the powerful square-top mainsail, large asymmetricals, enormous cockpit and the flush decks. We wanted a 30 foot platform for racing sailors of all levels who just wanted to have fun again in a fast, affordable yacht. We’ve kept running systems clean and aimed for the simple joys of racing where you know the result when you cross the finish line.”
The Soto 30 has been designed by Javier Soto Acebal who brought the iconic Soto 40 to the world over two years ago. The yacht will be constructed by M Boats in China with the first yachts ready for racing ready late July, 2011.
Features of the new yacht include the large, uncluttered cockpit, the simple transom-hung rudder, a contemporary and very light electric inboard propulsion system, one design rules that restrict the racing crew to five (or 450 kilos) and a dinghy-style spinnaker retrieval system.
“The design isn’t extreme or revolutionary - it’s more of an evolution bringing all the latest thinking in modern yacht racing into a 30 foot package. Without the shackle of handicap ratings, Javier Soto Acebal has been free to come up with a modern classic which will survive the fads and trends to provide great racing for many years,” says Javier Mendez.

For additional information....
Contact Tim Long on +61 404 896 820
Email info@longitudeyachts.com
Go to www.soto30.com

[pluto]

Looks good.

From the website http://www.soto30.co...ecification.php

SOTO 30 ONE DESIGN

LOA 9.15 m 30’
LWL 8.73 m 28' 7"
Beam 2.94 m 9’ 7”
Draft (down) 2.00 m 6’ 6”
Displ 1715 kgs 3770 lbs
Bulb 870 kgs 1920 lbs
I 11.66 m 38’ 3”
ISP 11.77 m 38’ 8”
J 3.73 m 12’ 3”
SPL 6.05 m 19” 10”
P 11.68 m 38” 3”
E 4.16 m 13’ 7”

[The Advocate]

Make it the new Olympic keelboat.

1 pro only

3 guys, 3 girls.

[Kent H]

Why build it in China? What about Argentina right next to the Soto 40? SA is definitely not the place to push China built racing or multihull boats. i.e. FT-10, Melges 20, Swedish 20, etc. I only took a quick look but the place of build is going to be a no go for those who have followed numerous race and performance builds. I have very little problem with many of the cruising boats both power and sail that are built in China but they can't even get the stainless 318 right on the boats.

I am sorry but this is a mistake.

[The Advocate]

So is Stainless 318.

[Kent H]

Sorry 316 - I keep seeing rust on this China Stainless steel, even the Walmart silverware has it!

[LongTim]

Why build it in China? What about Argentina right next to the Soto 40? SA is definitely not the place to push China built racing or multihull boats. i.e. FT-10, Melges 20, Swedish 20, etc. I only took a quick look but the place of build is going to be a no go for those who have followed numerous race and performance builds. I have very little problem with many of the cruising boats both power and sail that are built in China but they can't even get the stainless 318 right on the boats.

I am sorry but this is a mistake.

Appreciate your feedback Kent H but maybe you should see one out of the factory before condemning it. Of course we get to hear about the 'crash and burn' situations in Chinese manufacturing. But there are many, many success stories that we don't hear about.

If I could offer my 2 cents worth... I find it's usually the westeners who go in there and figure they can do everything ultra cheap that cause the problems. This factory is run by three VERY experienced Aussies who have been building in the region (and mostly OD stuff) for 20 years or so. We are aiming at absolute world class standard and nothing less. We have no doubt whatsoever that we will attain this. We could build the boat cheaper but that's where you fall into problems.

I haven't invested my time or money, my visits to China... nor has the staff from M Boats, just to be pushing crap out of the factory door.

I invite you to come to China sometime in May and see for yourself the quality of this yacht. I would love to surprise you. But I hear your warnings and don't take the many horror stories lightly. Tim

[Kent H]

Fair enough - If there are already performance boats built by M Boats China what are they? If there is already a good track record of this shop and employees then you are correct there should be minimal concern.

When I google M Boats I get the Argentine operation.

[LongTim]

I should also add that the CHina of 2011 is a very different place than, say, even 5 or 10 years ago. On top of that we are sourcing stuff from around the world. Masts from Argentina, fittings from Italy, Denmark, New Zealand, the UK and Holland, not just China.

[LongTim]

Fair enough - If there are already performance boats built by M Boats China what are they? If there is already a good track record of this shop and employees then you are correct there should be minimal concern.

When I google M Boats I get the Argentine operation.

The yachts will be constructed by an OEM called EAC in Zhuhai, China under the guidance and supervision of M Boats. Watching the Argentinians speaking English to the Chinese speaking English and the Australians speaking English is hilarious. I recall when I was young that we used to refer to stuff coming out of Japan as 'Jap crap' whereby these days they are seen as the pillar of manufacturing. People learn, things change. Luckily we have the right people leading the project along with the Soto 40 team. As the construction is almost identical (of course thinner foam, etc) their input has been invaluable.

[Christian]

Looks good.

From the website http://www.soto30.co...ecification.php

SOTO 30 ONE DESIGN

LOA 9.15 m 30'
LWL 8.73 m 28' 7"
Beam 2.94 m 9' 7"
Draft (down) 2.00 m 6' 6"
Displ 1715 kgs 3770 lbs
Bulb 870 kgs 1920 lbs
I 11.66 m 38' 3"
ISP 11.77 m 38' 8"
J 3.73 m 12' 3"
SPL 6.05 m 19" 10"
P 11.68 m 38" 3"
E 4.16 m 13' 7"

Seems a little on the tame side - but at least more lit up than a J105. Another issue - since it is over 28 feet most locales will not alloww it to race as it doesn't have double lifelines and bow pulpit - don't get me wrong - I am not necessarily saying it is a bad thing to NOT have but it will severely limit it's race potential in any kind of handicap environment - most certainly excluding it from most distance racing alltogether.

[Kent H]

EAC Website ....I think!


Well good luck with your build. The Soto 40 definitely turned out good so hopefully this boat will as well.

[LongTim]

Looks good.

From the website http://www.soto30.co...ecification.php

SOTO 30 ONE DESIGN

LOA 9.15 m 30'
LWL 8.73 m 28' 7"
Beam 2.94 m 9' 7"
Draft (down) 2.00 m 6' 6"
Displ 1715 kgs 3770 lbs
Bulb 870 kgs 1920 lbs
I 11.66 m 38' 3"
ISP 11.77 m 38' 8"
J 3.73 m 12' 3"
SPL 6.05 m 19" 10"
P 11.68 m 38" 3"
E 4.16 m 13' 7"

Seems a little on the tame side - but at least more lit up than a J105. Another issue - since it is over 28 feet most locales will not alloww it to race as it doesn't have double lifelines and bow pulpit - don't get me wrong - I am not necessarily saying it is a bad thing to NOT have but it will severely limit it's race potential in any kind of handicap environment - most certainly excluding it from most distance racing alltogether.

We're onto the lifeline issue. If only there was ONE standard! Obviously we'll develop a kit to suit the various regions but we are going to try and go for the single lifeline kit where possible. Already been spoken about around the table and M Boats are proposing a few solutions. All these initial comments are being complied into a list for further discussion. Thanks. Tim

[LongTim]

EAC Website ....I think!


Well good luck with your build. The Soto 40 definitely turned out good so hopefully this boat will as well.

Yes, that's them. I can promise they build better yachts than they do designing websites Thanks for your good wishes and, please, take the time to get over to China sometime and check out what's happening there. It's the centre of the universe atm

[Christian]

Looks good.

From the website http://www.soto30.co...ecification.php

SOTO 30 ONE DESIGN

LOA 9.15 m 30'
LWL 8.73 m 28' 7"
Beam 2.94 m 9' 7"
Draft (down) 2.00 m 6' 6"
Displ 1715 kgs 3770 lbs
Bulb 870 kgs 1920 lbs
I 11.66 m 38' 3"
ISP 11.77 m 38' 8"
J 3.73 m 12' 3"
SPL 6.05 m 19" 10"
P 11.68 m 38" 3"
E 4.16 m 13' 7"

Seems a little on the tame side - but at least more lit up than a J105. Another issue - since it is over 28 feet most locales will not alloww it to race as it doesn't have double lifelines and bow pulpit - don't get me wrong - I am not necessarily saying it is a bad thing to NOT have but it will severely limit it's race potential in any kind of handicap environment - most certainly excluding it from most distance racing alltogether.

We're onto the lifeline issue. If only there was ONE standard! Obviously we'll develop a kit to suit the various regions but we are going to try and go for the single lifeline kit where possible. Already been spoken about around the table and M Boats are proposing a few solutions. All these initial comments are being complied into a list for further discussion. Thanks. Tim

If you look at the ISAF/ORC offshore regs you are covering a whole lot of ground - not totally universally adopted but by far the most commonly used (or derivatives thereof)

[LongTim]

If you look at the ISAF/ORC offshore regs you are covering a whole lot of ground - not totally universally adopted but by far the most commonly used (or derivatives thereof)
[/quote]

Thanks Christian. We will remind people that the yacht, whilst capable of short offshore jaunts, IS NOT primarily designed for heading offshore but more going nuts around the bouys during the afternoon and heading back for a hot shower. If we feel that the lifeline set-up is too restrictive we'll address that problem. These are all good comments so we can guage the 'mood of the meeting' as we start to nail down the smaller details. But, I repeat, think Cat 4 and 5, rather than Cat 3. Tim

[StayinStrewn]

looks very cool Tim!! any polars?

[LongTim]

looks very cool Tim!! any polars?

I was waiting for the rating or polars question.... lol. Can you give us a few weeks? I am a bit torn with polars, partly because they drastically underestimated the real speeds of the Soto 40 and partly because most designers don't publish them on their new boats. We have pledged to be open, honest, etc. And if we fuck up we'll admit it. Of course we have to get JSA's permission to publish them anyway.

Out of interest do you use VPPs as an important evaluation tool for a new boat? Would it steer you one way or the other? Just like to know people's thoughts on this. If every other designer was totally open and published their VPPs it wouldn't be an issue. Tim

[Somebody Else]

EAC in Zhuhai, China (eastasiacomposites.com/) Flash™ web site = or more

Otherwise, everything else looking VERY GOOD!!

[Christian]

If you look at the ISAF/ORC offshore regs you are covering a whole lot of ground - not totally universally adopted but by far the most commonly used (or derivatives thereof)

Thanks Christian. We will remind people that the yacht, whilst capable of short offshore jaunts, IS NOT primarily designed for heading offshore but more going nuts around the bouys during the afternoon and heading back for a hot shower. If we feel that the lifeline set-up is too restrictive we'll address that problem. These are all good comments so we can guage the 'mood of the meeting' as we start to nail down the smaller details. But, I repeat, think Cat 4 and 5, rather than Cat 3. Tim

In the US most W/L racign is cat 4 or 5 and many short distance races (ie from 10-50 miles are cat 3. Even cat 4 requires double lifelines, pulpits and pushpits. So even the W/L races would require double lifelines in most US venues

[LongTim]

EAC in Zhuhai, China (eastasiacomposites.com/) Flash™ web site = or more

Otherwise, everything else looking VERY GOOD!!

At the end of the day I can hark on about how good the builders are, blah, blah but the proof of the pudding....

We are aiming to set up a live webcam of the boats being constructed. And we're happy to do 'Skype' tours for owners or host them if they want to visit.

M Boats have been working, chatting, visiting, emailing and generally liaising with the team in China for a year and there is absolutely zero doubt in my mind about the quality of the team working on this project. But let the boat sell the construction quality, not me.

[LongTim]

If you look at the ISAF/ORC offshore regs you are covering a whole lot of ground - not totally universally adopted but by far the most commonly used (or derivatives thereof)

Thanks Christian. We will remind people that the yacht, whilst capable of short offshore jaunts, IS NOT primarily designed for heading offshore but more going nuts around the bouys during the afternoon and heading back for a hot shower. If we feel that the lifeline set-up is too restrictive we'll address that problem. These are all good comments so we can guage the 'mood of the meeting' as we start to nail down the smaller details. But, I repeat, think Cat 4 and 5, rather than Cat 3. Tim

In the US most W/L racign is cat 4 or 5 and many short distance races (ie from 10-50 miles are cat 3. Even cat 4 requires double lifelines, pulpits and pushpits. So even the W/L races would require double lifelines in most US venues

Thanks Christian. This is valuable feedback. Will be passed on and we'll post the result. T

[Somebody Else]

In the US most W/L racign is cat 4 or 5 and many short distance races (ie from 10-50 miles are cat 3. Even cat 4 requires double lifelines, pulpits and pushpits. So even the W/L races would require double lifelines in most US venues

Whatever. Sounds like a straw man to me.

Are you saying we're not allowed to race Etchells anymore?

[Ship o' Fools]

The boat looks really interesting. I am sure you have a bunch of brilliant people working on the design - you might wish to take advantage of the rudder experience of Columbia 30 and FT10 with regard to having the leading edge of the rudder under the boat to delay/prevent cavitation of the rudder.

[StayinStrewn]

good point SoF....call Jim Betts for a second opinion!!! though I wonder if the all carbon blade is (less or no deflection?) just that much better, despite not being under the hull??

[LongTim]

Another angle. The actual camber is a little more than on the 3D. And the pole looks massively long but it's more of a perspective thing in the software. The pole is tapered and vanishes into the hull without the sleeve extending out from the hull - really neat.


Also, the coarse mainsheet is planned to go inside the boom. I think the render artist was just showing off!

Acknowledging the past rudder problems on some keelboats, we are customising all the rudder fittings and have the past issues on a few boats firmly in our mind as we produce the first boat. The actual rudder looks a bit prettier on the stern with a gentle curve tapering as the rudder exits the waterplane. We will be taking the demo boat out for a couple of weeks and trying to destroy it as we aim to find any defects in the whole boat. Can I say, proudly, that the Soto 40s have been pretty much indestructible so far. But sure we'll hit a few hurdles along the way - it's a boat!

Attached Files

•  Soto 30 - 4.jpg   172.21K   167 downloads

[Christian]

In the US most W/L racign is cat 4 or 5 and many short distance races (ie from 10-50 miles are cat 3. Even cat 4 requires double lifelines, pulpits and pushpits. So even the W/L races would require double lifelines in most US venues

Whatever. Sounds like a straw man to me.

Are you saying we're not allowed to race Etchells anymore?

In many areas you would not be able to race an eggshell in a handicrap race. It is naturally not an issue for OD racing but many people would end up racing a Soto 30 in handicrap at least until a critical mass has been established. If you look at many bigger OD boats in the US you will see a lot of them race a mixture of OD and handicrap races ( Farr 40, Mummfar 30, Melges 32, various Bendytoys, J-boats etc.) Would kinda suck to be excluded from the handicrap world.

[Somebody Else]

In many areas you would not be able to race an [Etchells] in a handicrap race. It is naturally not an issue for OD racing but many people would end up racing a Soto 30 in handicrap at least until a critical mass has been established. If you look at many bigger OD boats in the US you will see a lot of them race a mixture of OD and handicrap races ( Farr 40, Mummfar 30, Melges 32, various Bendytoys, J-boats etc.) Would kinda suck to be excluded from the handicrap world.

Woops! My bad. I must have skipped over the part of the discussion concerning handicap racing.

[LongTim]

In many areas you would not be able to race an [Etchells] in a handicrap race. It is naturally not an issue for OD racing but many people would end up racing a Soto 30 in handicrap at least until a critical mass has been established. If you look at many bigger OD boats in the US you will see a lot of them race a mixture of OD and handicrap races ( Farr 40, Mummfar 30, Melges 32, various Bendytoys, J-boats etc.) Would kinda suck to be excluded from the handicrap world.

Woops! My bad. I must have skipped over the part of the discussion concerning handicap racing.

It's on the list.

[in_TO]

Apologies if this has been brought up already...

Isn't a 3:1 backstay leading to a winch a bit of overkill?

[Somebody Else]

Apologies if this has been brought up already...

Isn't a 3:1 backstay leading to a winch a bit of overkill?

No it's not. Fine adjustments can make big differences in trim (same as with non-overlapping, tall jibs) and the key to repeatability is being able to make very fine adjustments. The winch alone most likely has sufficient power but the additional purchase provides the fine control and repeatability.

[LongTim]

Looks good.

From the website http://www.soto30.co...ecification.php

SOTO 30 ONE DESIGN

LOA 9.15 m 30'
LWL 8.73 m 28' 7"
Beam 2.94 m 9' 7"
Draft (down) 2.00 m 6' 6"
Displ 1715 kgs 3770 lbs
Bulb 870 kgs 1920 lbs
I 11.66 m 38' 3"
ISP 11.77 m 38' 8"
J 3.73 m 12' 3"
SPL 6.05 m 19" 10"
P 11.68 m 38" 3"
E 4.16 m 13' 7"

I = 38' - 3"
ISP = 38' - 8"
delta = 0' - 5"

Rig drawings show the delta between I and ISP to be much greater.

Was our mistake on the website. Been fixed now. Yes, the 5" between the I and ISP was a little small. Sorry for the confusion. T

[LongTim]

Apologies if this has been brought up already...

Isn't a 3:1 backstay leading to a winch a bit of overkill?

No it's not. Fine adjustments can make big differences in trim (same as with non-overlapping, tall jibs) and the key to repeatability is being able to make very fine adjustments. The winch alone most likely has sufficient power but the additional purchase provides the fine control and repeatability.

Interesting comment about the 'overkill'. It was proven on the Soto 40 that adjustment of the split backstays had an enormous effect on the speed of the boat. You can't play with the mast jack during a race so there's not a lot else to adjust. On the 40s they upped the spec of the backstay and winch after they discovered the loads were much higher than anticipated. The Saturday sailor won't worry so much about cranking on the backstay but the OD sailor will and we had to ensure we had enough purchase and adjustment for that role. But interested to hear other alternatives as well.

[Christian]

Apologies if this has been brought up already...

Isn't a 3:1 backstay leading to a winch a bit of overkill?

No it's not. Fine adjustments can make big differences in trim (same as with non-overlapping, tall jibs) and the key to repeatability is being able to make very fine adjustments. The winch alone most likely has sufficient power but the additional purchase provides the fine control and repeatability.

Interesting comment about the 'overkill'. It was proven on the Soto 40 that adjustment of the split backstays had an enormous effect on the speed of the boat. You can't play with the mast jack during a race so there's not a lot else to adjust. On the 40s they upped the spec of the backstay and winch after they discovered the loads were much higher than anticipated. The Saturday sailor won't worry so much about cranking on the backstay but the OD sailor will and we had to ensure we had enough purchase and adjustment for that role. But interested to hear other alternatives as well.

An alternative - that I happen to have on my boat (also with dual backstays due to a squaretop main) is that i run the backtays to a block where the two tails run directly to a cleat on one end and a 4:1 on the other. That way you can quickly put on the backstay (in tacks and gybes) via the 2:1 effective purchase and finetune on the 8:1 effective. Works very well. The main on the Soto 30 is about the same size (judging from rig data and the pic of the main profile) so I would venture that it would be enough oumph for the Soto. 2 winches (and their weight/cost) saved and a much faster backstay system

[Joakim]

Out of interest do you use VPPs as an important evaluation tool for a new boat? Would it steer you one way or the other? Just like to know people's thoughts on this. If every other designer was totally open and published their VPPs it wouldn't be an issue. Tim

There many different VPP's and polars. Polars given by designer seem to be quite often "marketing polars", which overestimate the speed of the boat due to e.g. too low displacement, no waves or other VPP settings. So these aren't really that useful comparing new boats in detail, but are still interesting to look at and certainly reveal many characters of the boat.

Comparing VPP polars from fully measured boats using the same VPP and settings for all boats (e.g. ORC/ORR) is a different story. Then you really can see more details of how the boats behave.