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#101 shaggybaxter

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Posted 25 February 2011 - 08:32 PM

I like polars, it helps me visualise the boats nature before I find out the only other way, sail it.
SB

I like polars, it helps me visualise the boats nature before I find out the only other way, sail it.
SB

#102 shaggybaxter

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Posted 25 February 2011 - 08:33 PM

Oops, echo, sorry.

#103 Gone Ballistic

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Posted 27 February 2011 - 09:42 PM

I've never sailed with split backstays and swept spreaders. Can someone quickly talk me through the tacks and gybes, will the backstay be critical for rig stability or can you tack / gybe without and deal after? Can the helm do it as well? Is it actually getting a bit too complicated for the casual club racer / weekend warrior?

#104 LongTim

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Posted 27 February 2011 - 10:44 PM

I've never sailed with split backstays and swept spreaders. Can someone quickly talk me through the tacks and gybes, will the backstay be critical for rig stability or can you tack / gybe without and deal after? Can the helm do it as well? Is it actually getting a bit too complicated for the casual club racer / weekend warrior?


I will let some of the others get back to you with the actual process of tacking and gybing but it's not a horror story once you get used to it. Usually best to have a dedicated person on the job. To get the best performance, especially upwind, you need to get the right tension. It's all about forestay tension. On the Soto 40s they pull 3.5 tonnes of pressure on the backstays... and the difference between proper tension and just 'pulling them on' is huge.

Upwind you won't lose your stick if you don't pull the backstay on. Downwind, well, as soon as that big kite fills you are going to want to get the backstay on, especially in anything above 10 - 15 TWS.

It's all OK to have a rig without a backstay but you will either never achieve decent forestay tension or leave your yacht in terminal tension trying to fold itself in half all the time. If there was an easier solution we would use it. And if we could get away with a simple purchase system we would have but, again, it's not going to provide the tension required and the winches make it very simple.

#105 brutus

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Posted 28 February 2011 - 02:20 AM


I've never sailed with split backstays and swept spreaders. Can someone quickly talk me through the tacks and gybes, will the backstay be critical for rig stability or can you tack / gybe without and deal after? Can the helm do it as well? Is it actually getting a bit too complicated for the casual club racer / weekend warrior?


I will let some of the others get back to you with the actual process of tacking and gybing but it's not a horror story once you get used to it. Usually best to have a dedicated person on the job. To get the best performance, especially upwind, you need to get the right tension. It's all about forestay tension. On the Soto 40s they pull 3.5 tonnes of pressure on the backstays... and the difference between proper tension and just 'pulling them on' is huge.

Upwind you won't lose your stick if you don't pull the backstay on. Downwind, well, as soon as that big kite fills you are going to want to get the backstay on, especially in anything above 10 - 15 TWS.

It's all OK to have a rig without a backstay but you will either never achieve decent forestay tension or leave your yacht in terminal tension trying to fold itself in half all the time. If there was an easier solution we would use it. And if we could get away with a simple purchase system we would have but, again, it's not going to provide the tension required and the winches make it very simple.



How can the expected crew size be 5 then as the proposal states. Melges 32's and Mumm 30's sail with at least 7 without the split backstays.
I would figure 1. Driver 2. Backstays 3. Bow 4. Pit 5. Trimmer 6. Main trimmer
This assumes the pit will break the lazy sheet on tacks or gybes.
How do they figure on five, not counting the hiking advantages?

#106 Bob Perry

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Posted 28 February 2011 - 02:31 AM

You like polars?

I have a bridge I'd love to sell you.

#107 fireball

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Posted 28 February 2011 - 03:00 AM

How can the expected crew size be 5 then as the proposal states. Melges 32's and Mumm 30's sail with at least 7 without the split backstays.
I would figure 1. Driver 2. Backstays 3. Bow 4. Pit 5. Trimmer 6. Main trimmer
This assumes the pit will break the lazy sheet on tacks or gybes.
How do they figure on five, not counting the hiking advantages?


I'd sail with 6 crew because the max. weight of 450kg would allow 6 crew at an average of 75kg per person.

This average is similar to a Farr 40 (max. weight 760kg or 10 crew at an average of 76kg per person).

It doesn't leave any room for fatties - everyone has to go on a diet!!!

#108 LongTim

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Posted 28 February 2011 - 03:06 AM



I've never sailed with split backstays and swept spreaders. Can someone quickly talk me through the tacks and gybes, will the backstay be critical for rig stability or can you tack / gybe without and deal after? Can the helm do it as well? Is it actually getting a bit too complicated for the casual club racer / weekend warrior?


I will let some of the others get back to you with the actual process of tacking and gybing but it's not a horror story once you get used to it. Usually best to have a dedicated person on the job. To get the best performance, especially upwind, you need to get the right tension. It's all about forestay tension. On the Soto 40s they pull 3.5 tonnes of pressure on the backstays... and the difference between proper tension and just 'pulling them on' is huge.

Upwind you won't lose your stick if you don't pull the backstay on. Downwind, well, as soon as that big kite fills you are going to want to get the backstay on, especially in anything above 10 - 15 TWS.

It's all OK to have a rig without a backstay but you will either never achieve decent forestay tension or leave your yacht in terminal tension trying to fold itself in half all the time. If there was an easier solution we would use it. And if we could get away with a simple purchase system we would have but, again, it's not going to provide the tension required and the winches make it very simple.



How can the expected crew size be 5 then as the proposal states. Melges 32's and Mumm 30's sail with at least 7 without the split backstays.
I would figure 1. Driver 2. Backstays 3. Bow 4. Pit 5. Trimmer 6. Main trimmer
This assumes the pit will break the lazy sheet on tacks or gybes.
How do they figure on five, not counting the hiking advantages?


Thanks Brutus. Regarding the number of crew... the Class have set a limit of 5 or 450 kgs, which could be 6. The Class also wanted to make the cockpit and systems work a lot better than in the past so there's plenty of room for everyone to enjoy the sailing better. Things like the spinnaker retrieval system take a lot of the load off the bow. Most people will agree that 7 or 8 is too many in a 30 footer. The yacht, generally, has more righting moment than some of the earlier designs. This isn't a criticism of the others, just a fact of a later design, carbon keels, latest construction, etc. They also want to limit the trend of massive hiking to make the Class more attractive to a wider range of sailors as well. Of course when everyone's racing OD you don't need to put more people over the side to get an advantage. All this stuff is great feedback and I can assure the Class read the forums as well.

#109 Christian

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Posted 28 February 2011 - 07:29 AM




I've never sailed with split backstays and swept spreaders. Can someone quickly talk me through the tacks and gybes, will the backstay be critical for rig stability or can you tack / gybe without and deal after? Can the helm do it as well? Is it actually getting a bit too complicated for the casual club racer / weekend warrior?


I will let some of the others get back to you with the actual process of tacking and gybing but it's not a horror story once you get used to it. Usually best to have a dedicated person on the job. To get the best performance, especially upwind, you need to get the right tension. It's all about forestay tension. On the Soto 40s they pull 3.5 tonnes of pressure on the backstays... and the difference between proper tension and just 'pulling them on' is huge.

Upwind you won't lose your stick if you don't pull the backstay on. Downwind, well, as soon as that big kite fills you are going to want to get the backstay on, especially in anything above 10 - 15 TWS.

It's all OK to have a rig without a backstay but you will either never achieve decent forestay tension or leave your yacht in terminal tension trying to fold itself in half all the time. If there was an easier solution we would use it. And if we could get away with a simple purchase system we would have but, again, it's not going to provide the tension required and the winches make it very simple.



How can the expected crew size be 5 then as the proposal states. Melges 32's and Mumm 30's sail with at least 7 without the split backstays.
I would figure 1. Driver 2. Backstays 3. Bow 4. Pit 5. Trimmer 6. Main trimmer
This assumes the pit will break the lazy sheet on tacks or gybes.
How do they figure on five, not counting the hiking advantages?


Thanks Brutus. Regarding the number of crew... the Class have set a limit of 5 or 450 kgs, which could be 6. The Class also wanted to make the cockpit and systems work a lot better than in the past so there's plenty of room for everyone to enjoy the sailing better. Things like the spinnaker retrieval system take a lot of the load off the bow. Most people will agree that 7 or 8 is too many in a 30 footer. The yacht, generally, has more righting moment than some of the earlier designs. This isn't a criticism of the others, just a fact of a later design, carbon keels, latest construction, etc. They also want to limit the trend of massive hiking to make the Class more attractive to a wider range of sailors as well. Of course when everyone's racing OD you don't need to put more people over the side to get an advantage. All this stuff is great feedback and I can assure the Class read the forums as well.


I wholeheartedly agree that putting 7-8 (or more) bodies on a 30 footer is no fun - way too many people that are just lifeline hangers. Looking at the sail sizes it should not be necessary to have more that 5 peeps to handle the sailing. We sai a very similar setup (and same sail sizes) with 4-6 people depending on conditions - the extra 2 being mostly for ballast - 4 people can easily sail the boat

#110 DEAD MONEY

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Posted 28 February 2011 - 04:27 PM

I've never sailed with split backstays and swept spreaders. Can someone quickly talk me through the tacks and gybes, will the backstay be critical for rig stability or can you tack / gybe without and deal after? Can the helm do it as well? Is it actually getting a bit too complicated for the casual club racer / weekend warrior?


I was a little Surprised to see a "split backstay" that go to 2 Dedicated Winchs. I'm gonna guess that with the Square Main it would of been impossible to have one conventional Backstay. Could you have used a "crane" or "Whip" to get it past the Main and than go with "Check-Stays/Runners" to get the Tenstion that you need on the Forestay?? Like the Mumm 36.

As for Tacking/Gybing it is very simple. Since the Rig has "swept back spreaders" upwind there is very little chance of dropping the Mast upwind. The Main will actually help support it. The Backstay will act as an "accelerator" where the more tenstion you apply the faster and higher you'll be able to point. On the Mumm there was a Load Cell gauge that would tell you how much load you had (very important to Help guide you in settings and allows you to Repeat/Duplicate the settings)any on the Soto ?? The Main trimmer would release the Windward loaded Runner when the boat is Tacking/Gybing and starting it's turn thru the wind. As the boat turns thru the wind the New sheet is Loaded on the New Windward side. As the boat speeds up, more tenstion is applied smoothly/slowly till the boat reachs its Polar speed. Downwind you do not want to miss or screw up putting tenstion on as that is when the Mast can/will go over the side. Usually have 1 Dedicated person handling it.

Also most PHRF rules do require Double Lifelines. Sure you can show up to a PHRF regatta in an Etchell's or any boat and Race but you are open for a Protest from your competitors for not complying to the rules. Unfortunately there are plenty of wankers that would protest you. Look at the Wylie Cat 44 or the J110. If your planning on Marketing to the US you better have an option to order the boat set up to comply w/PHRF rules. It's gonna take years to make enough boats to form an OD Class.

No mention of Price ? Too early to let it out?? This is a tough one....price yourself too low and you won't make any Money and you are doomed from the start.....can anyone say Cheetah 30 (sport boat for $40K on the Line ready to Race)?? Too expensive and no one will buy (hundreds if not thousands here).

Great looking boat!! After seeing a picture I will now adjust my first guess and say it'll rate 36 PHRF....hahha

#111 Norm

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Posted 01 March 2011 - 12:31 AM

Big tim,

How much to land in australia ?

#112 LongTim

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Posted 01 March 2011 - 12:50 AM


I've never sailed with split backstays and swept spreaders. Can someone quickly talk me through the tacks and gybes, will the backstay be critical for rig stability or can you tack / gybe without and deal after? Can the helm do it as well? Is it actually getting a bit too complicated for the casual club racer / weekend warrior?


I was a little Surprised to see a "split backstay" that go to 2 Dedicated Winchs. I'm gonna guess that with the Square Main it would of been impossible to have one conventional Backstay. Could you have used a "crane" or "Whip" to get it past the Main and than go with "Check-Stays/Runners" to get the Tenstion that you need on the Forestay?? Like the Mumm 36.

As for Tacking/Gybing it is very simple. Since the Rig has "swept back spreaders" upwind there is very little chance of dropping the Mast upwind. The Main will actually help support it. The Backstay will act as an "accelerator" where the more tenstion you apply the faster and higher you'll be able to point. On the Mumm there was a Load Cell gauge that would tell you how much load you had (very important to Help guide you in settings and allows you to Repeat/Duplicate the settings)any on the Soto ?? The Main trimmer would release the Windward loaded Runner when the boat is Tacking/Gybing and starting it's turn thru the wind. As the boat turns thru the wind the New sheet is Loaded on the New Windward side. As the boat speeds up, more tenstion is applied smoothly/slowly till the boat reachs its Polar speed. Downwind you do not want to miss or screw up putting tenstion on as that is when the Mast can/will go over the side. Usually have 1 Dedicated person handling it.

Also most PHRF rules do require Double Lifelines. Sure you can show up to a PHRF regatta in an Etchell's or any boat and Race but you are open for a Protest from your competitors for not complying to the rules. Unfortunately there are plenty of wankers that would protest you. Look at the Wylie Cat 44 or the J110. If your planning on Marketing to the US you better have an option to order the boat set up to comply w/PHRF rules. It's gonna take years to make enough boats to form an OD Class.

No mention of Price ? Too early to let it out?? This is a tough one....price yourself too low and you won't make any Money and you are doomed from the start.....can anyone say Cheetah 30 (sport boat for $40K on the Line ready to Race)?? Too expensive and no one will buy (hundreds if not thousands here).

Great looking boat!! After seeing a picture I will now adjust my first guess and say it'll rate 36 PHRF....hahha


THanks Dead Money. Believe you will see some modification in the lifeline situation. The design group doesn't believe there is any other way to cope with the backstay loads in this modern yacht. Otherwise end up with some hefty purchase and a LOT of sheets floating around. Not a decision taken lightly. The Soto 40s carry a forestay loadcell. The 30? Probably not. PHRF rating? Like all the other ratings.... I have no idea atm.

#113 LongTim

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Posted 01 March 2011 - 12:53 AM

Price announced today - US $99,500 ex. factory. In full spec as per website.... www.soto30.com/specification.php

For the Aussie enquiry that's $97,600 today.... add shipping (about 5,000), shipping cradle (TBA), import duty (5%), GST (10%) and some local handling charges. We will be posting generic shipping charges for a lot of ports in the next few weeks. And, as with the Soto 40, sails and dials are owner's choice but the OD rules restrict the sails to Main, 3 x jib and 2 x asymmetrical. Dials will also be restricted and you can leave your tablet and iPad at home.

#114 LongTim

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Posted 01 March 2011 - 04:55 AM

I should mention that the price isn't a super duper builder's special 'first-10-yachts' discount sorta deal. That is the retail price for the yacht no matter who buys one, when they buy one or wherever they buy one (local taxes excluded of course).

#115 CazzaRanda

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Posted 01 March 2011 - 06:09 AM

great caption on this picture of the spec: a caption contest couldn't have done better... :P

Is the keel retractable?

Cazza

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#116 LongTim

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Posted 01 March 2011 - 06:25 AM

great caption on this picture of the spec: a caption contest couldn't have done better... :P

Is the keel retractable?

Cazza


Thanks. well, you gotta have some fun with these things. I am still a bit mystified as to why they would draw someone there???!!!

Yes, the keel is fully retractable, up to the bulb anyway.

#117 Kent H

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Posted 01 March 2011 - 08:13 AM

"BELOW DECKS
Don't get too excited. There's not a lot to talk about once you head belowdecks. Bunks (with bunk cushions) and heaps of sail storage - umm, that's about it. The access to the engine and electrical systems is excellent and you will notice the spinnaker retrieval 'sock' running all the way through from the foreward hatch along the port side. To starboard the retractable pole system runs all the way through to the cockpit to drain any water that may get in through the pole exit in the bow. If you are looking for mahogany trim, a full galley and pretty curtains this may not be the boat for you."


You definitely need to talk more about this feature as the design and first hull is tested. I can easily race this boat in beer can club races with a total of three on board if this is a skiff style single line retrival system that works. Very, very nice feature...if it works!

#118 Brian

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Posted 01 March 2011 - 02:23 PM

"BELOW DECKS
Don't get too excited. There's not a lot to talk about once you head belowdecks. Bunks (with bunk cushions) and heaps of sail storage - umm, that's about it. The access to the engine and electrical systems is excellent and you will notice the spinnaker retrieval 'sock' running all the way through from the foreward hatch along the port side. To starboard the retractable pole system runs all the way through to the cockpit to drain any water that may get in through the pole exit in the bow. If you are looking for mahogany trim, a full galley and pretty curtains this may not be the boat for you."


You definitely need to talk more about this feature as the design and first hull is tested. I can easily race this boat in beer can club races with a total of three on board if this is a skiff style single line retrival system that works. Very, very nice feature...if it works!


Sounds pretty similar to what Christian has on his Viper 830, and on the Viper it works very well. Some may try to compare it to the TPs, but I am assuming the retrieval line is manually pulled in--not thrown around a bitch winch.

#119 us7070

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Posted 01 March 2011 - 05:29 PM

price seems ok...

why would the mast jack be optional in a one-design boat...?

seems like this might be a fairly tuning-sensitive boat, so if they are permitted, you won't be competitive without it..


also, i don't fully understand the comments about the split backstay..., is the rig coming down if you screw up the jibe in breezy conditions?

#120 LongTim

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Posted 01 March 2011 - 11:25 PM

price seems ok...

why would the mast jack be optional in a one-design boat...?

seems like this might be a fairly tuning-sensitive boat, so if they are permitted, you won't be competitive without it..


also, i don't fully understand the comments about the split backstay..., is the rig coming down if you screw up the jibe in breezy conditions?


Mast jack.... Fair comment. For OD purposes you will need a mast jack. But the weekend warrior may be happy not to worry about the additional mast control but gives them the option of playing OD if and when they want. I will amend the inclusion on the website/brochure to explain that. Thanks.

You wouldn't want to be hurtling down a wave at 20 knots and hit the wave ahead without the backstay on... but the rig would be engineered with a certain amount of 'fudge factor' to handle the increased loads. This wouldn't be any different to any other fractional rig carrying mast head kites and not using the backstay downwind. Yes, people do lose rigs screwing up jibes in breezy conditions. I am one of them :) Would I prefer not to have to worry about pulling on the split backstays? Yes. Is it possible or realistic? No.

About your 'tuning-sensitive' comment... the Soto 40s really, really react to rig tension tuning. It was a comment passed onto me many, many times when I was in Buenos Aires. I reckon you'd be 100% right in saying that the 30 will be just as sensitive to attention is this area.

#121 LongTim

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Posted 02 March 2011 - 12:12 AM

price seems ok...

why would the mast jack be optional in a one-design boat...?

seems like this might be a fairly tuning-sensitive boat, so if they are permitted, you won't be competitive without it..


also, i don't fully understand the comments about the split backstay..., is the rig coming down if you screw up the jibe in breezy conditions?


Price OK??? If you make a 30 footer cheaper you might have problems with the rudder... or maybe have to de-spec the yacht to carry an aluminium mast. I reckon the price is right on! Fitting everything into one container makes a big difference. We were never going to compromise on putting shitty gear on the boat or building them out of anything other than epoxy. The reputation of the 40 has set the tone so we made sure we'd get this right.

#122 jpchirinos

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Posted 21 April 2011 - 01:21 AM

Posted Image
Posted Image
Posted Image
Some recent renderings of the Soto 30 - the final design now being constructed in China. A few changes to the original design....
Sloped and offset (port) hatchway, integrated molded forward toe-rails, recessed forestay tensioner, cockpit seats running all the way through to the transom, axe-bow and subtle chine running all the way through from bow to stern.

Juanpa-cadario.blogspot.com

#123 quasi-expert

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Posted 21 April 2011 - 06:50 AM

what is the reason to use winches for the twin backstays?
after all it's only 30'...
different opinions?

#124 steveromagnino

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Posted 21 April 2011 - 07:07 AM

Looks a whole lot like a Shaw 650 now without the wings!

Sweet boat...can't wait to see one in person. Longtim, I think you need to bring a demo boat out to Asia, put some Q sails on it, and get Gingerbread to race it at Kings Cup ;-)

#125 Ballast Technician

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Posted 21 April 2011 - 07:07 AM

what is the reason to use winches for the twin backstays?
after all it's only 30'...
different opinions?


Discussed/explained multiple times here already - loads would require massive purchase arrangement and adjustments would be too slow/inaccurate/of insufficient range/tedious/etc.

#126 LongTim

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Posted 21 April 2011 - 07:25 AM


what is the reason to use winches for the twin backstays?
after all it's only 30'...
different opinions?


Discussed/explained multiple times here already - loads would require massive purchase arrangement and adjustments would be too slow/inaccurate/tedious.


Ditto. With a modern carbon rig to get the very best out of your horsepower you need tension - a lot of tension. The boat will certainly sail faster and better with the twin backstays than without. If there was an easy solution then we'd have it. Yes, it's an OD boat but it's also a very contemporary modern design with the very best ideas and technology included. Sure, once you've had a play with the backstays you'll appreciate the gains in performance. Tim

#127 Polaris

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Posted 21 April 2011 - 10:49 AM

In one photo, the Boom Vang is below, in the other, above the boom. What is the reasoning behind the boom vang being on top of the boom? Also, we have swept back spreaders and went to split backstays on winches, they are easy and efficient allowing for a fathead main without a whip on top.

#128 LongTim

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Posted 21 April 2011 - 11:01 AM

In one photo, the Boom Vang is below, in the other, above the boom. What is the reasoning behind the boom vang being on top of the boom? Also, we have swept back spreaders and went to split backstays on winches, they are easy and efficient allowing for a fathead main without a whip on top.


Sorry about the generations of renders... old vang, new vangs, old hatch, new hatch. The parameters of the yacht have never changed but the details have been worked through as the design evolved. So the latest renders represent all the latest thinking and the actual plans that were sent to the builders in Zhuhai. We will have all the rig parameters announced in the next week which will clarify a lot of the OD questions and explain things like the upside-down vang (used in some of the gnarly dinghy classes). As with everything in the design we've tried to be cutting edge where practicable and simplify where we can. And, just to prove I can put my money where my mouth is, I've bought boat No. 1 :) And looking forward to it indeed! Tim

#129 Mike in CT

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Posted 21 April 2011 - 11:53 AM

can someone explain the axe bow concept.

#130 miahmouse

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Posted 21 April 2011 - 11:56 AM

it may have been mentioned before, but uhhh...I'm not seeing any halyard winches... :blink:

#131 Pleb

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Posted 21 April 2011 - 12:09 PM

it may have been mentioned before, but uhhh...I'm not seeing any halyard winches... :blink:


Can I ask why it needs Halyard winches when it has been stated that the pit lay out is orientated to use the Primary winches and it has a Jib cunningham?

#132 StayinStrewn

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Posted 21 April 2011 - 01:17 PM


In one photo, the Boom Vang is below, in the other, above the boom. What is the reasoning behind the boom vang being on top of the boom? Also, we have swept back spreaders and went to split backstays on winches, they are easy and efficient allowing for a fathead main without a whip on top.


Sorry about the generations of renders... old vang, new vangs, old hatch, new hatch. The parameters of the yacht have never changed but the details have been worked through as the design evolved. So the latest renders represent all the latest thinking and the actual plans that were sent to the builders in Zhuhai. We will have all the rig parameters announced in the next week which will clarify a lot of the OD questions and explain things like the upside-down vang (used in some of the gnarly dinghy classes). As with everything in the design we've tried to be cutting edge where practicable and simplify where we can. And, just to prove I can put my money where my mouth is, I've bought boat No. 1 :) And looking forward to it indeed! Tim


nice Tim!!

#133 Presuming Ed

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Posted 21 April 2011 - 02:03 PM

What's the crew weight/number limit going to be?

#134 miahmouse

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Posted 21 April 2011 - 02:13 PM


it may have been mentioned before, but uhhh...I'm not seeing any halyard winches... :blink:


Can I ask why it needs Halyard winches when it has been stated that the pit lay out is orientated to use the Primary winches and it has a Jib cunningham?


While I figured it would have to have a jib cunno, I haven't seen it stated anywhere...

cause using the primary's for pit winches is a fantastic idea... :ph34r: I can see it working perfectly in mild to moderate breeze, and going all to shit once it picks up...

#135 williwaw

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Posted 21 April 2011 - 03:32 PM

Wow nice boat looks like a Pro 25 at 30 feet

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#136 8:07 to New Haven

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Posted 21 April 2011 - 04:34 PM

So from stern forward, it would be: Back-stay trimmer, driver, main trimmer? Enough room for 3 asses there? Tim - curious to hear how the consideration for having one crew member's weight on the far aft corner at all times upwind, affected hull design.

#137 tuf-luf

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Posted 21 April 2011 - 04:44 PM

Wow nice boat looks like a Pro 25 at 30 feet


PRO25 is sex on a stick! Any details/links?

#138 tuf-luf

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Posted 21 April 2011 - 04:47 PM

So from stern forward, it would be: Back-stay trimmer, driver, main trimmer? Enough room for 3 asses there? Tim - curious to hear how the consideration for having one crew member's weight on the far aft corner at all times upwind, affected hull design.


Pretty sure Soto/Acebal have considered that already...and how crucial this position is to the overall trim of the yacht (i.e. the crew weight and position are accounted for when the yacht is loaded and in optimum trim).

Tim, am I reaching?

#139 Left Hook

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Posted 21 April 2011 - 05:00 PM


Wow nice boat looks like a Pro 25 at 30 feet


PRO25 is sex on a stick! Any details/links?


There's one for sail near NYC in the SA Classifieds. Pics: http://www.flickr.co...s/26765740@N08/

http://www.sailinganarchy.com/classified/boats_0_30.htm#040711_pro25

#140 miahmouse

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Posted 21 April 2011 - 05:08 PM


Wow nice boat looks like a Pro 25 at 30 feet


PRO25 is sex on a stick! Any details/links?

this ones for sale in the classifieds... http://www.flickr.co...s/26765740@N08/

http://www.judel-vrolijk.com/#

#141 Somebody Else

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Posted 21 April 2011 - 05:09 PM

So from stern forward, it would be: Back-stay trimmer, driver, main trimmer? Enough room for 3 asses there? Tim - curious to hear how the consideration for having one crew member's weight on the far aft corner at all times upwind, affected hull design.

Do you know how confrontational your question sounds?

As a partial answer to your question I will refer to the trend toward high-volume, truncated sterns which are appearing across all size ranges of race boats now. This skiff-like shapes support -- need -- weight aft to sail on their lines. Look how far aft an Aussie 18 crew live.

#142 tuf-luf

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Posted 21 April 2011 - 05:17 PM

[quote name='Left Hook' timestamp='1303405256' post='3238593']
[quote name='tuf-luf' timestamp='1303404269' post='3238569']
[quote name='williwaw' timestamp='1303399944' post='3238498']
Wow nice boat looks like a Pro 25 at 30 feet
[/quote]

PRO25 is sex on a stick! Any details/links?
[/quote]

There's one for sail near NYC in the SA Classifieds. Pics: http://www.flickr.co...s/26765740@N08/

http://www.sailinganarchy.com/classified/boats_0_30.htm#040711_pro25
[/quote]

Thanks.

[quote name='miahmouse' timestamp='1303405724' post='3238602']
[quote name='tuf-luf' timestamp='1303404269' post='3238569']
[quote name='williwaw' timestamp='1303399944' post='3238498']
Wow nice boat looks like a Pro 25 at 30 feet
[/quote]

PRO25 is sex on a stick! Any details/links?
[/quote]
this ones for sale in the classifieds... http://www.flickr.co...s/26765740@N08/

http://www.judel-vrolijk.com/#
[/quote]
...and thanks :)

#143 Somebody Else

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Posted 21 April 2011 - 05:20 PM

For God's sake, man! Fix your quotes!

#144 tuf-luf

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Posted 21 April 2011 - 05:36 PM

For God's sake, man! Fix your quotes!


Lik me blue thread monitor.

#145 LongTim

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Posted 21 April 2011 - 09:29 PM

it may have been mentioned before, but uhhh...I'm not seeing any halyard winches... :blink:


Halyard locks and a recessed forestay tensioner has been chosen to get rid of extra clutter.

#146 LongTim

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Posted 21 April 2011 - 09:32 PM

What's the crew weight/number limit going to be?


Crew weight limit - 450Kgs. 990 Lbs.

#147 LongTim

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Posted 21 April 2011 - 09:36 PM


So from stern forward, it would be: Back-stay trimmer, driver, main trimmer? Enough room for 3 asses there? Tim - curious to hear how the consideration for having one crew member's weight on the far aft corner at all times upwind, affected hull design.


Pretty sure Soto/Acebal have considered that already...and how crucial this position is to the overall trim of the yacht (i.e. the crew weight and position are accounted for when the yacht is loaded and in optimum trim).

Tim, am I reaching?


Pretty spot on. There's plenty of volume in the back end of the boat. And with the tiller the helm is sitting nearly 2 metres from the stern so plenty of room behind them... and maybe even room for the occasional passenger, or two. That's one reason we continued the cockpit seating all the way to the transom. It's just practical.

#148 LongTim

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Posted 21 April 2011 - 11:16 PM



it may have been mentioned before, but uhhh...I'm not seeing any halyard winches... :blink:


Can I ask why it needs Halyard winches when it has been stated that the pit lay out is orientated to use the Primary winches and it has a Jib cunningham?


While I figured it would have to have a jib cunno, I haven't seen it stated anywhere...

cause using the primary's for pit winches is a fantastic idea... :ph34r: I can see it working perfectly in mild to moderate breeze, and going all to shit once it picks up...


I've called it a recessed jib tensioner. But, yeah, it has a jib cunningham. Again, it's all about simplifying and getting rid of cockpit clutter where possible.

#149 miahmouse

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Posted 21 April 2011 - 11:26 PM

I've called it a recessed jib tensioner. But, yeah, it has a jib cunningham. Again, it's all about simplifying and getting rid of cockpit clutter where possible.


gotcha... the jib was a minor concern with the whole lack of winches, I'm also thinking of douses in heavy breeze or a knockdown where 20ft of halyard has to come off quick but controlled...

#150 LongTim

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Posted 21 April 2011 - 11:42 PM


I've called it a recessed jib tensioner. But, yeah, it has a jib cunningham. Again, it's all about simplifying and getting rid of cockpit clutter where possible.


gotcha... the jib was a minor concern with the whole lack of winches, I'm also thinking of douses in heavy breeze or a knockdown where 20ft of halyard has to come off quick but controlled...


That's where you can use one of the other winches when it's a bit frothy. There is always a time in the 'simplification' process where you start compromising a few systems and situations. I think we've found a good synergy between sophistication and a clean cockpit. There is no correct answer to this but, as a trend, cleaning up all the clutter is a good way to go. Tim

#151 miahmouse

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Posted 21 April 2011 - 11:45 PM



I've called it a recessed jib tensioner. But, yeah, it has a jib cunningham. Again, it's all about simplifying and getting rid of cockpit clutter where possible.


gotcha... the jib was a minor concern with the whole lack of winches, I'm also thinking of douses in heavy breeze or a knockdown where 20ft of halyard has to come off quick but controlled...


That's where you can use one of the other winches when it's a bit frothy. There is always a time in the 'simplification' process where you start compromising a few systems and situations. I think we've found a good synergy between sophistication and a clean cockpit. There is no correct answer to this but, as a trend, cleaning up all the clutter is a good way to go. Tim


I can thoroughly agree with simplification...

#152 LongTim

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Posted 21 April 2011 - 11:49 PM

can someone explain the axe bow concept.


I have absolutely zero explanation. I suspect it is more like the grills on the front of any car. It does absolutely nothing to make the car go faster but you know the brand just before it hits you. A Soto Acebal affectation? He has the knack of making fast boats look cool so I'm going with it. There is also a subtle chine that runs all the way through so the point in the 'axe' is the termination of that chine at the bow. Like the Soto 40, you'll know the boat when you see it on the water!

#153 Peacefrog

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Posted 22 April 2011 - 12:43 AM

About the what to do with the jib when it is snorting thing, just leave the freaking up! Off you go nothing to see here, cause the spray is awesome :)

#154 williwaw

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Posted 22 April 2011 - 05:34 AM


Wow nice boat looks like a Pro 25 at 30 feet


PRO25 is sex on a stick! Any details/links?



What about sex on a stick x 3

The boat for sale in the US is my old boat, Pro25 designed by Judel/Vrolijk is still one of the fastest 25 footers around, add a bowsprit to it and it flies even faster.

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#155 dolphinmaster

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Posted 22 April 2011 - 02:31 PM


can someone explain the axe bow concept.


I have absolutely zero explanation. I suspect it is more like the grills on the front of any car. It does absolutely nothing to make the car go faster but you know the brand just before it hits you. A Soto Acebal affectation? He has the knack of making fast boats look cool so I'm going with it. There is also a subtle chine that runs all the way through so the point in the 'axe' is the termination of that chine at the bow. Like the Soto 40, you'll know the boat when you see it on the water!


Just don't let one of those axe bows T-Bone you on a port/starboard. If the bow is dropping off a wave, it will only chisel down into your topsides or deck.

#156 redboat

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Posted 22 April 2011 - 02:46 PM

So latest renderings show no hint of stanchions, lifelines or pulpits of any sort. Is that the final fit out decision?

#157 LongTim

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Posted 22 April 2011 - 09:14 PM

So latest renderings show no hint of stanchions, lifelines or pulpits of any sort. Is that the final fit out decision?


Boats will include pulpit, staunchions and lifelines in their standard specification. Just a bugger to draw and gets in the way of a good render!

#158 LongTim

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Posted 28 April 2011 - 12:22 PM

Some more angles for ya...

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#159 LongTim

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Posted 28 April 2011 - 12:23 PM

and...

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#160 LongTim

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Posted 30 April 2011 - 04:56 AM

OD sail dimensions now published.

http://soto30.com/specification.php


#161 Christian

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Posted 30 April 2011 - 06:25 PM

OD sail dimensions now published.

http://soto30.com/specification.php


Seem a little on the tame side.........................just sayin'

#162 LongTim

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Posted 30 April 2011 - 09:18 PM

Fair comment and it's been made before. I can assure you that we've had comparison charts coming out our ears as the designer investigated the best sail engine for the yacht. Inevitably the Soto 30 gets compared to the M32 and the F/Mumm 30. We're humbled to be included in such esteemed company!! Without repeating a lot of stuff in our website and forthcoming articles in magazines, etc we are targeting a slightly different market with the Soto 30. All I can assure you is that the boat won't be undercooked in any way. There has been a lot of evolution of hull design and rigs - albeit subtle and not revolutionary - and we've included a lot of this in the design. The square-head main, alone, adds a lot more grunt to a given rig size plus the improvements in the mast geometry, blah, blah. Racing with only five saves weight but has been compensated with a more powerful and stable hull form.

As an owner of a Soto 30 I wanted a fast, well-balanced sportsboat that will give me exhilarating rides downhill and a cockpit big enough to take the Collingwood Football team out on a Thursday night twilight race. (Apologies to readers outside Australia who would have NO idea who the Collingwood Football team is). I am well satisfied that JSA has come up with a good fit for our original brief and have zero fear that the boat will be undercooked. But bring on the comparisons - that's what the forum is here for.

#163 LongTim

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Posted 30 April 2011 - 09:20 PM

Just a little thing. Anyone can start a forum but I figure one forum is enough for comments and critique about the Soto 30. Let's stick with this one.

#164 Frank

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Posted 01 May 2011 - 12:12 AM

Fair comment and it's been made before. I can assure you that we've had comparison charts coming out our ears as the designer investigated the best sail engine for the yacht. Inevitably the Soto 30 gets compared to the M32 and the F/Mumm 30. We're humbled to be included in such esteemed company!! Without repeating a lot of stuff in our website and forthcoming articles in magazines, etc we are targeting a slightly different market with the Soto 30. All I can assure you is that the boat won't be undercooked in any way. There has been a lot of evolution of hull design and rigs - albeit subtle and not revolutionary - and we've included a lot of this in the design. The square-head main, alone, adds a lot more grunt to a given rig size plus the improvements in the mast geometry, blah, blah. Racing with only five saves weight but has been compensated with a more powerful and stable hull form.

As an owner of a Soto 30 I wanted a fast, well-balanced sportsboat that will give me exhilarating rides downhill and a cockpit big enough to take the Collingwood Football team out on a Thursday night twilight race. (Apologies to readers outside Australia who would have NO idea who the Collingwood Football team is). I am well satisfied that JSA has come up with a good fit for our original brief and have zero fear that the boat will be undercooked. But bring on the comparisons - that's what the forum is here for.


You can call it a sportsboat all you want but the fact is you won't be racing in any sportboat div. You will be racing in PHS yachts or Super 30 against Farr's Melges and FT10 so they are exactly the same target market. Probably good you do though, the quick sportsboat are only 2-3 feet shorter, about 1/3 of the weight with bigger kites.

#165 LongTim

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Posted 01 May 2011 - 12:24 AM


Fair comment and it's been made before. I can assure you that we've had comparison charts coming out our ears as the designer investigated the best sail engine for the yacht. Inevitably the Soto 30 gets compared to the M32 and the F/Mumm 30. We're humbled to be included in such esteemed company!! Without repeating a lot of stuff in our website and forthcoming articles in magazines, etc we are targeting a slightly different market with the Soto 30. All I can assure you is that the boat won't be undercooked in any way. There has been a lot of evolution of hull design and rigs - albeit subtle and not revolutionary - and we've included a lot of this in the design. The square-head main, alone, adds a lot more grunt to a given rig size plus the improvements in the mast geometry, blah, blah. Racing with only five saves weight but has been compensated with a more powerful and stable hull form.

As an owner of a Soto 30 I wanted a fast, well-balanced sportsboat that will give me exhilarating rides downhill and a cockpit big enough to take the Collingwood Football team out on a Thursday night twilight race. (Apologies to readers outside Australia who would have NO idea who the Collingwood Football team is). I am well satisfied that JSA has come up with a good fit for our original brief and have zero fear that the boat will be undercooked. But bring on the comparisons - that's what the forum is here for.


You can call it a sportsboat all you want but the fact is you won't be racing in any sportboat div. You will be racing in PHS yachts or Super 30 against Farr's Melges and FT10 so they are exactly the same target market. Probably good you do though, the quick sportsboat are only 2-3 feet shorter, about 1/3 of the weight with bigger kites.


Get your point. Obviously the term 'sportsboat' means different things in parts of the world. We're not pretending the Soto 30 is anything like the extreme sailing machines to which you refer (and what amazing boats they are too). Yes, happy to be placed in the same category as the F/Mumm 30, M32 and Super 30s. We just better come up with some better generic terms for the various yacht styles.

#166 Christian

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Posted 01 May 2011 - 02:01 AM

Fair comment and it's been made before. I can assure you that we've had comparison charts coming out our ears as the designer investigated the best sail engine for the yacht. Inevitably the Soto 30 gets compared to the M32 and the F/Mumm 30. We're humbled to be included in such esteemed company!! Without repeating a lot of stuff in our website and forthcoming articles in magazines, etc we are targeting a slightly different market with the Soto 30. All I can assure you is that the boat won't be undercooked in any way. There has been a lot of evolution of hull design and rigs - albeit subtle and not revolutionary - and we've included a lot of this in the design. The square-head main, alone, adds a lot more grunt to a given rig size plus the improvements in the mast geometry, blah, blah. Racing with only five saves weight but has been compensated with a more powerful and stable hull form.

As an owner of a Soto 30 I wanted a fast, well-balanced sportsboat that will give me exhilarating rides downhill and a cockpit big enough to take the Collingwood Football team out on a Thursday night twilight race. (Apologies to readers outside Australia who would have NO idea who the Collingwood Football team is). I am well satisfied that JSA has come up with a good fit for our original brief and have zero fear that the boat will be undercooked. But bring on the comparisons - that's what the forum is here for.



If you have done extensive comparison charts you would see that these numbers put you right next to a Mummfar 30 and a good deal below boats like T30, Viper830, Hendo30, etc. These boats were put in the water in the last millenium and while quite 'exiting' for their times a modern race boat should be a little more than a remake of these boats. I can tell youthat the sail sizes in your specs are very close to my Viper 830 - which weighs in at 2300 lbs - and that is a 1996 design. Granted - my boat will scare some people but that what race boats are supposed to do - unless you dumb down the whole thing. Race boats are not for the people, who are more than happy to sail j30's and the like

#167 LongTim

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Posted 02 May 2011 - 01:17 AM

I would have thought nearly 59 sm of sail (main and #1 jib) was plenty for a modern 30 footer. (Not a 'skiff' but a lot more than a J boat or Henderson 30). From what I read the Viper 830 has 45.4 sm of sail uphill. Ummm, not the same. I understand your point but just didn't get the maths. Apologies if the numbers on the Thompson site are wrong. There is no perfect answer for the question of sail sizes but we don't want the Soto 30 to be 'scary' but able to cater for a wide audience of racing sailors.

http://www.tboat.com...er830/V830.html

#168 Mojounwin

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Posted 02 May 2011 - 02:47 AM

Hey Tim,
Did the sail area numbers change on the Soto website overnight? I swear when I checked the website yesterday it said, upwind sail area - 47sqm, which might be why some people were saying it was undercooked.

Anyway, 59sqm sounds good. Boat looks great. I like the idea of keeping crew numbers relatively small. Nobody wants to go sailing just to be rail meat.

Would you consider bring the boats upto Magnetic Island RW after Hammo?

Cheers
Mojo

#169 LongTim

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Posted 02 May 2011 - 02:51 AM

Hey Tim,
Did the sail area numbers change on the Soto website overnight? I swear when I checked the website yesterday it said, upwind sail area - 47sqm, which might be why some people were saying it was undercooked.

Anyway, 59sqm sounds good. Boat looks great. I like the idea of keeping crew numbers relatively small. Nobody wants to go sailing just to be rail meat.

Would you consider bring the boats upto Magnetic Island RW after Hammo?

Cheers
Mojo


Tempt me :)

#170 LongTim

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Posted 02 May 2011 - 02:55 AM

Originally we had some rig numbers based on IJPE measurements. Now we have the full sail sizes as determined by the people developing the rig and sails in conjunction with JSA. Maybe that explains some of the valid questions. If it's caused confusion, my humble apologies. Double checked the site today and the numbers are correct.

#171 smokeless

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Posted 02 May 2011 - 05:09 AM

If you have done extensive comparison charts you would see that these numbers put you right next to a Mummfar 30 and a good deal below boats like T30, Viper830, Hendo30, etc. These boats were put in the water in the last millenium and while quite 'exiting' for their times a modern race boat should be a little more than a remake of these boats. I can tell youthat the sail sizes in your specs are very close to my Viper 830 - which weighs in at 2300 lbs - and that is a 1996 design. Granted - my boat will scare some people but that what race boats are supposed to do - unless you dumb down the whole thing. Race boats are not for the people, who are more than happy to sail j30's and the like


If we're going to be talking about numbers, it's only fair we get on the same page. Comparison below using OD crew weights and sail area (it's in imperial as the formulas I have for SA/D and D/LWL are easier that way). If any of the numbers are wrong, let me know.
Note: your Viper830 has listed weights in a pretty wide range so I went with the middle ground of 2200lbs, not sure what the 14 that were built actually came in at.

The way I see it the Soto is closer to the Melges than the Mumm all up.

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#172 Christian

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Posted 03 May 2011 - 05:09 AM


If you have done extensive comparison charts you would see that these numbers put you right next to a Mummfar 30 and a good deal below boats like T30, Viper830, Hendo30, etc. These boats were put in the water in the last millenium and while quite 'exiting' for their times a modern race boat should be a little more than a remake of these boats. I can tell youthat the sail sizes in your specs are very close to my Viper 830 - which weighs in at 2300 lbs - and that is a 1996 design. Granted - my boat will scare some people but that what race boats are supposed to do - unless you dumb down the whole thing. Race boats are not for the people, who are more than happy to sail j30's and the like


If we're going to be talking about numbers, it's only fair we get on the same page. Comparison below using OD crew weights and sail area (it's in imperial as the formulas I have for SA/D and D/LWL are easier that way). If any of the numbers are wrong, let me know.
Note: your Viper830 has listed weights in a pretty wide range so I went with the middle ground of 2200lbs, not sure what the 14 that were built actually came in at.

The way I see it the Soto is closer to the Melges than the Mumm all up.


The numbers I referred to were 47 sqm upwind, which was listed on the website (it may have been corrected by now) which put the boat in the tame category,


BTW - the Vipers came out close to 2250 lbs - many sail with a much larger main than the original class main, mine included - squaretop main at close to 400 sqf and a 195 sqf jib kites are typically about 1000 sqf even though I do have one that is 1250 - only fast in a good blow sailing deep and a real fucking bitch to gybe




Witht he right numbers for the Soto is looks better - I would prefer it to more lit up though - especially for light air venues.

#173 Humungus

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Posted 05 May 2011 - 01:33 AM

You can call it a sportsboat all you want but the fact is you won't be racing in any sportboat div. You will be racing in PHS yachts or Super 30 against Farr's Melges and FT10 so they are exactly the same target market. Probably good you do though, the quick sportsboat are only 2-3 feet shorter, about 1/3 of the weight with bigger kites.


There is an active Super 30 thread in Sport Boat Anarchy. I don't think there is an absolute definition for sport boat other than they need to have a reasonable power to weight ratio and easily trailered.

#174 Pleb

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Posted 05 May 2011 - 01:38 PM

The term sport boat can refer to anything. Sailing is a Sport and it is a boat, Well not yet!! haha
The problem I see is people in AUS see it being called a "Sportboat" when it doesn't not fit withing the SMS handicap system for "Sportboats"

Super 30 is a different kettle of fish.

#175 LongTim

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Posted 24 May 2011 - 12:05 AM

Latest build pics. First boat going to Perth. Two more headed to Argentina. Will keep you all updated.

http://www.longitude...0_progress.html

#176 LongTim

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Posted 25 June 2011 - 06:07 AM

Soto 30. Pretty in black.

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#177 LongTim

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Posted 03 July 2011 - 06:07 AM

Say goodbye to the electric engine... not going to happen.

#178 LongTim

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Posted 03 July 2011 - 06:54 AM

Visit by Javier Mendez of M Boats to the factory in China. EAC Director Paul Scholten and Javier spent the day finalising all the little details. Report on those 'little details' soon.

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#179 Mojounwin

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Posted 03 July 2011 - 09:30 AM

Hey LT,
Looking good, is she still on track for launch?

Cheers
Mojo

#180 ColinG

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Posted 03 July 2011 - 10:47 AM

Say goodbye to the electric engine... not going to happen.


Its one of those things, isn't it, - great idea, but no way yet to get enough range without too much weight and expense.
Better to go the drop down outboard. still the lightest solution.

#181 Gorn FRANTIC!!

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Posted 03 July 2011 - 10:54 AM


Say goodbye to the electric engine... not going to happen.


Its one of those things, isn't it, - great idea, but no way yet to get enough range without too much weight and expense.
Better to go the drop down outboard. still the lightest solution.

No, factory issued carbon fibre paddles (1 per crew member) would be the lightest solution :P

#182 LongTim

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Posted 03 July 2011 - 12:02 PM



Say goodbye to the electric engine... not going to happen.


Its one of those things, isn't it, - great idea, but no way yet to get enough range without too much weight and expense.
Better to go the drop down outboard. still the lightest solution.

No, factory issued carbon fibre paddles (1 per crew member) would be the lightest solution :P


We see two port holes on each side with two crew downstairs. It lowers drag on deck and you only require four oars and a whip.

#183 LongTim

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Posted 03 July 2011 - 12:12 PM

Well, I will throw caution to the wind and put out the call for 'interesting and creative' ideas. There is already a perfectly workable Plan B with finished drawings, etc. But, always looking for a great idea. The electric engine simply failed the reliability test. The Melges 32 solution is barely workable, expensive, cumbersome and drags around a lot of water. A little Lombardini diesel is US 8,000 and you have to drag the sail-drive all day. A motor on the back is a bit '1980' and agricultural. 4 stroke engines can't be stored horizontally.... and on the problems go. It's a really good brain-teaser really. But, hey, someone might have the glimmer of a new way to go before we resort to the road usually travelled. By the way, the boat is looking very, very HOT indeed. I can't wait to reveal the little girl to you all :)

#184 Gorn FRANTIC!!

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Posted 03 July 2011 - 12:48 PM

What about a diesel with retractable drive leg like Yendys(Wedgetail) Wild Oats etc?

#185 LongTim

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Posted 03 July 2011 - 01:25 PM

What about a diesel with retractable drive leg like Yendys(Wedgetail) Wild Oats etc?


Cost of the diesel and leg is the big barrier there. Then add the retractable stuff. But it's an excellent solution for the right boat with an open budget. Indeed it's probably the best of all the solutions if the boat was a bit bigger. The end weight would be 70 - 80 Kg and that's just too much for this little flyer. But appreciate the brain-time... keep it coming.

#186 MKF

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Posted 03 July 2011 - 01:45 PM

There is no solution! So far I have spent a small fortune on the farr 11s to address this issue. Outboard works, but you replace every year, also use a 5hp for race days and a 15 to 20hp to move the boat (motors a 9.5 knts in flat water...boat sails fast enough once there is 8 knts on wind...

Yanmar 1 gm with a retractable prop - 12 to 15K USD, and reasoably heavy.

Sail drive dragging is really an issue for these types of boats, but at the end of the day either a yanmar1GM, 10 with a sail drive is the most economical solution...have recently been looking at a US solution for an electric engine, 24volts that could be attached to a retractable prop, weight is right, but a battery solution is 3.5 to 5K USD...also a generator will be required for long hauls that is DC abled...price about 3K...

small diesel is the easiest solution, but weight and other aspects hurt...outboards are cheap but blooming painful to store and more about. As discussed M32 solution does not work so well....

Following this with a lot of attention...

MKF

#187 LongTim

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Posted 03 July 2011 - 01:54 PM

Excellent summary. At the end of the day it's probably going to have to be an outboard/inboard solution because of weight and cost. Just got to get the configuration RIGHT, the well DRY and the cost DOWN. The impossible dream...

#188 trenace

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Posted 03 July 2011 - 02:32 PM

Well, I will throw caution to the wind and put out the call for 'interesting and creative' ideas. There is already a perfectly workable Plan B with finished drawings, etc. But, always looking for a great idea. The electric engine simply failed the reliability test. The Melges 32 solution is barely workable, expensive, cumbersome and drags around a lot of water. A little Lombardini diesel is US 8,000 and you have to drag the sail-drive all day. A motor on the back is a bit '1980' and agricultural. 4 stroke engines can't be stored horizontally.... and on the problems go. It's a really good brain-teaser really. But, hey, someone might have the glimmer of a new way to go before we resort to the road usually travelled.


There's gotta be a reason, besides reduced propulsive efficiency, why no one has done this and so it would be new for a sailboat, but for a glimmer... two-stroke jet drive. Very light, not much drag.

(I do expect there will be reasons why not, buy you asked for something different!)

#189 LongTim

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Posted 03 July 2011 - 02:39 PM


Well, I will throw caution to the wind and put out the call for 'interesting and creative' ideas. There is already a perfectly workable Plan B with finished drawings, etc. But, always looking for a great idea. The electric engine simply failed the reliability test. The Melges 32 solution is barely workable, expensive, cumbersome and drags around a lot of water. A little Lombardini diesel is US 8,000 and you have to drag the sail-drive all day. A motor on the back is a bit '1980' and agricultural. 4 stroke engines can't be stored horizontally.... and on the problems go. It's a really good brain-teaser really. But, hey, someone might have the glimmer of a new way to go before we resort to the road usually travelled.


There's gotta be a reason, besides reduced propulsive efficiency, why no one has done this and so it would be new for a sailboat, but for a glimmer... two-stroke jet drive. Very light, not much drag.

(I do expect there will be reasons why not, buy you asked for something different!)


Actually I love this idea. Have had fleeting thoughts about it but not really pursued it. I'll put it on my homework and see if I can get some workable solution. Works on JetSkis.... light, small. Yes, worth checking out the suitability. Just cause it hasn't really been tried doesn't mean we shouldn't consider it. We could even remove the engine from the JetSki and then ceremonially burn the rest of the shitter!!

#190 trenace

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Posted 03 July 2011 - 02:47 PM

Cool! :)

Beautiful boat, by the way. Best of success!

#191 Christian

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Posted 03 July 2011 - 03:44 PM


Well, I will throw caution to the wind and put out the call for 'interesting and creative' ideas. There is already a perfectly workable Plan B with finished drawings, etc. But, always looking for a great idea. The electric engine simply failed the reliability test. The Melges 32 solution is barely workable, expensive, cumbersome and drags around a lot of water. A little Lombardini diesel is US 8,000 and you have to drag the sail-drive all day. A motor on the back is a bit '1980' and agricultural. 4 stroke engines can't be stored horizontally.... and on the problems go. It's a really good brain-teaser really. But, hey, someone might have the glimmer of a new way to go before we resort to the road usually travelled.


There's gotta be a reason, besides reduced propulsive efficiency, why no one has done this and so it would be new for a sailboat, but for a glimmer... two-stroke jet drive. Very light, not much drag.

(I do expect there will be reasons why not, buy you asked for something different!)


The Cone was built with a homegrown version of a jet drive made with a couple of trap doors and an outboard powerhead with a severely shortened shaft. I know they have had a bit of trouble with the system (doors not closing, etc) but if that system got perfected it could be a viable avenue - I think one of the best for sporties under 40 feet (which is probably the size where retractable drives become expensive but viable)

#192 trenace

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Posted 03 July 2011 - 04:44 PM

I really should have said no one had done commercially what I described, in an at-all similar boat, so far as I know. I really was not thinking that it hadn't ever been done on any individual boat: most of the time any idea with any possible promise using existing things will have been tried by someone, somewhere already.

I didn't know that the Cone had used a jet drive. An innovative boat in many ways.

#193 StayinStrewn

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Posted 03 July 2011 - 04:54 PM



Well, I will throw caution to the wind and put out the call for 'interesting and creative' ideas. There is already a perfectly workable Plan B with finished drawings, etc. But, always looking for a great idea. The electric engine simply failed the reliability test. The Melges 32 solution is barely workable, expensive, cumbersome and drags around a lot of water. A little Lombardini diesel is US 8,000 and you have to drag the sail-drive all day. A motor on the back is a bit '1980' and agricultural. 4 stroke engines can't be stored horizontally.... and on the problems go. It's a really good brain-teaser really. But, hey, someone might have the glimmer of a new way to go before we resort to the road usually travelled.


There's gotta be a reason, besides reduced propulsive efficiency, why no one has done this and so it would be new for a sailboat, but for a glimmer... two-stroke jet drive. Very light, not much drag.

(I do expect there will be reasons why not, buy you asked for something different!)


Actually I love this idea. Have had fleeting thoughts about it but not really pursued it. I'll put it on my homework and see if I can get some workable solution. Works on JetSkis.... light, small. Yes, worth checking out the suitability. Just cause it hasn't really been tried doesn't mean we shouldn't consider it. We could even remove the engine from the JetSki and then ceremonially burn the rest of the shitter!!


great idea!!

#194 Pom

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Posted 04 July 2011 - 10:52 AM

Back in the mid 90's one of the uk sportboats had a really simple method of a plug that you manually placed in the hull with the outboard sitting in a well in the cockpit.. Ok the join was never perfect, but as it was OD, it did not really matter. It could maybe be a bit more refined to suit. But probably the simplest and most cost effective method I have seen.

#195 Christian

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Posted 04 July 2011 - 04:48 PM

Back in the mid 90's one of the uk sportboats had a really simple method of a plug that you manually placed in the hull with the outboard sitting in a well in the cockpit.. Ok the join was never perfect, but as it was OD, it did not really matter. It could maybe be a bit more refined to suit. But probably the simplest and most cost effective method I have seen.


This was done on a number of T-boats - including the Viper 830. I think ALL of these have been glassed over (and the kicker on the stern) as the trap doors were not easy to make flush and motering with the open well was no picnic either. The Henderson 30 solution was somewhat ok but not without its share of problems. I think the M32 solution sucks - especially in rough conditions. Same with the FT10 version. They end up as high maintenance items and if not 100 flush to the bottom when sailing they add a fair bit of drag which is obviously a killer on a sportboat.


I think a sailboat version of a jet drive (with some well designed trap doors) would be a killer for this

#196 Peacefrog

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Posted 04 July 2011 - 05:27 PM

The Hendo system is WAY WAY better then the Melges

#197 CazzaRanda

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Posted 04 July 2011 - 08:32 PM

We re-build the 'garage' door on our FT10 out of starboard, and forgot we have a door ever since. As long as there is low friction at the hinges it works very well. The original solution done with steel and fiberglass was pretty bad for that reason.

I suspect that with your cockpit layout there isn't enough vertical space to build a well for an engine that slides up and down and doesn't tilt.

Cazza

#198 flyingdog

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Posted 04 July 2011 - 08:44 PM

Is the solution more that one engine?

An inclosed electric for getting out to the course and an attachable four stroke for deliveries?

Who knows...

FD

#199 trenace

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Posted 04 July 2011 - 08:48 PM

Is the solution more that one engine?

An inclosed electric for getting out to the course and an attachable four stroke for deliveries?

Who knows...

FD

Sounds good to me.

#200 Christian

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Posted 04 July 2011 - 08:52 PM

The Hendo system is WAY WAY better then the Melges



Totally agree




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