450 replies to this topic

[LongTim]

OK. This is all great. Having a designer with a ruler and pencil coming up with a great looking system has failed in the past. The real word is very different when it comes to all these 'easy' solutions. I'm getting a little jolly about this jetski propulsion idea. So Anarchists, where can I go to source an engine (and assorted plumbing) so I can get the team to check over the idea and maybe do a trial. The electric was a great idea, the Plan B is fine but uninspiring. Let's come up with a kick arse Plan C and prove an ongoing solution for sportsboats of this size. Give me a kick start and I'll take it from there. (I have a personal interest in this aspect of the boat because I was the idiot who pushed so hard for the original electric engine idea)

[trenace]

There's a market in rebuilt 2 stroke Kawasaki and other motors and all the parts necessary, at very modest cost -- I've run into it by chance as a friend had used one of these companies with success and loved the price and results. As I don't have anything like indepth knowledge on it, I can suggest only that when Googling "Jetski rebuilt engines," the first is the one that he had success with. But probably there are sources everywhere.


Four stroke would run much more weight, and be needlessly overpoweredl for the application.

[LongTim]

There's a market in rebuilt 2 stroke Kawasaki and other motors and all the parts necessary, at very modest cost -- I've run into it by chance as a friend had used one of these companies with success and loved the price and results. As I don't have anything like indepth knowledge on it, I can suggest only that when Googling "Jetski rebuilt engines," the first is the one that he had success with. But probably there are sources everywhere.


Four stroke would run much more weight, and be needlessly overpoweredl for the application.

I agree. We could dispense with the pesky mast and all those silly sails and have a LOT of fun with a four stroke!

Will chase it all up. Thanks.

PS. The designer's going to love this when it arrives on his desk

[Ship o' Fools]

Back in the mid 90's one of the uk sportboats had a really simple method of a plug that you manually placed in the hull with the outboard sitting in a well in the cockpit.. Ok the join was never perfect, but as it was OD, it did not really matter. It could maybe be a bit more refined to suit. But probably the simplest and most cost effective method I have seen.

This was done on a number of T-boats - including the Viper 830. I think ALL of these have been glassed over (and the kicker on the stern) as the trap doors were not easy to make flush and motering with the open well was no picnic either. The Henderson 30 solution was somewhat ok but not without its share of problems. I think the M32 solution sucks - especially in rough conditions. Same with the FT10 version. They end up as high maintenance items and if not 100 flush to the bottom when sailing they add a fair bit of drag which is obviously a killer on a sportboat.


I think a sailboat version of a jet drive (with some well designed trap doors) would be a killer for this

I am curious why you think the FT10 version "sucks".

As far as drag and weight, it is better than an inboard - and cheaper. While the design and build of the FT10 door system requires someone knowledgeable operate the door so it doesn't bind, surely the system can be refined/built to be idiot proof that even the guy on the bow could operate it. ; ) Sounds like Cazza's refinement is a step in the right direction, if not the solution.

[longy]

Someone set me straight here - why does a jet drive need a trap door? It needs about 4 sq inches of intake, then a discharge nozzle. Which could be out the transom, above water line. output does not have to be submerged,no benefit (thrust wise)to that.

[ColinG]

not sure about above the water discharge. don't think you go very far like that! be like sticking a firehose off the back. You only get any efficient forward thrust if you discharge back into a non-compressible medium (ie water).

[Wandering Geo]

not sure about above the water discharge. don't think you go very far like that! be like sticking a firehose off the back. You only get any efficient forward thrust if you discharge back into a non-compressible medium (ie water).

Longy's simple idea is correct.
Force = mass of water x acceleration of the water.
Doesn't need to resist against anything,
Modern jets just move a huge volume water very quickly to generate the motive force
PS: have you seen the problems the firies have controlling with high volume hoses?

[ColinG]

Maybe, but you would have to move a shedload more water without any back pressure to get the same forward thrust.. Acceleration would be shit too.

Also, Can't even imagine how popular you'd be at the marina with a firehose spewing water out the back as you are docking!

[Tunnel Rat]

Someone set me straight here - why does a jet drive need a trap door? It needs about 4 sq inches of intake, then a discharge nozzle. Which could be out the transom, above water line. output does not have to be submerged,no benefit (thrust wise)to that.

This idea might make going into reverse a little tricky!

[LongTim]

Maybe, but you would have to move a shedload more water without any back pressure to get the same forward thrust.. Acceleration would be shit too.

Also, Can't even imagine how popular you'd be at the marina with a firehose spewing water out the back as you are docking!

Agreed

[eerie sailor]

This is simple and works great.

 CROexterior.gif   15.95K   100 downloads

Henderson 30 contained retractable outboard

[Le Shark]

Maybe, but you would have to move a shedload more water without any back pressure to get the same forward thrust.. Acceleration would be shit too.

Also, Can't even imagine how popular you'd be at the marina with a firehose spewing water out the back as you are docking!

Take a pressure washer (or even a garden hose with a decent nozzle on it) and spray it up into the air - feel the kick back?
Now stick the end in a big barrel of water and tell me whether it fires right out your hands...

Your point on the marina issues is very valid however - Jets tend to make a hell of a mess of whats around them in docking situations.

[Steam Flyer]

Maybe, but you would have to move a shedload more water without any back pressure to get the same forward thrust.. Acceleration would be shit too.

Umm, that's not the way it works.

An above-water discharge would produce the exact same amount of force (propulsion) as below-water. "Back-pressure" is a null in terms of doing work.

Also, Can't even imagine how popular you'd be at the marina with a firehose spewing water out the back as you are docking!

Now, there's a problem.

There's a very cool small boat called a Dovekie (light 21-footer) which had some experiments on water-jet drive, and they ended up with a 24v electric unit that would drive the boat at ~ 3 1/2 knots or a little better. It had a 3/4" above water discharge nozzle IIRC, never saw a picture that showed how far behind the boat it threw a stream.

FB- Doug

[trenace]

This is simple and works great.

 CROexterior.gif   15.95K   100 downloads

Henderson 30 contained retractable outboard

Does the Torqeedo outboard have reliability problems?

Maybe a best of both is the way to go. The Torqeedo is really compact and light (batteries could be put amidships and low.)

[Peacefrog]

The Torgeedo is terrible!!!!! You cannot go any distance at all with them.

[barefoot children]

Maybe, but you would have to move a shedload more water without any back pressure to get the same forward thrust.. Acceleration would be shit too.

Also, Can't even imagine how popular you'd be at the marina with a firehose spewing water out the back as you are docking!

Agreed

You have to have reverse capability for this size boat, so discharge must be underwater and a means of reversing the "prop" devised.
I don't know if such exists in the jet ski world, am I wrong??

[trenace]

The Torgeedo is terrible!!!!! You cannot go any distance at all with them.

There are different models, I don't know if you mean that none of them, at equal or lighter weight with batteries than gas outboard and better weight placement, count as "any distance at all" ? Everything's relative, as well as personal. Some do a lot of motoring.

But this also is where Flyingdog's suggestion comes in. It can be built to use a choice of outboards.

[doghouse]

This is simple and works great.

 CROexterior.gif   15.95K   100 downloads

Henderson 30 contained retractable outboard

That is the same as most Tboats i have seen. Almost identical to Rumours setup. Another way to minimize the water is to do what Rob Shaw di, which is basically a version of the above, is to make the opening only big enough for the prop and skeg.

Sorta bad picture below

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•  DSCN0910.JPG   109.32K   172 downloads

[barefoot children]

Maybe, but you would have to move a shedload more water without any back pressure to get the same forward thrust.. Acceleration would be shit too.

Also, Can't even imagine how popular you'd be at the marina with a firehose spewing water out the back as you are docking!

Agreed

You have to have reverse capability for this size boat, so discharge must be underwater and a means of reversing the "prop" devised.
I don't know if such exists in the jet ski world, am I wrong??

Only thing I could find dosen't look attractive for clean underwater shape for sailboats:

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/6676462.pdf

[Mojounwin]

This might sound like me being a bit of a wet blanket, but my 2 bobs worth is that I think that a system using an outboard is they way to go. I know they have their limitations, but when you are trying to produce a boat on a budget it will make life easier. Trying to adapt a system for a purpose it was never designed for brings a whole new list of complexities (and cost). I have no doubt it can be done, but to do it properly and have any confidence it will be reliable won't be cheap. There is also the question of warranty.

To throw another idea into the ring. How about a an outboard on a swinging arm. I have a setup like this on my 8m boat. When the outboard is not in use it sits horizontal under the cockpit floor. When you want to use it the arm swings the outboard out to the transom. It basically becomes a transom mount outboard, but when not in use is completely hidden from veiw. Saves having to piss about with openings through the hull and also allows outboard steering.

Cheers
Mojo

[TBone]

Anybody know what has been decided for the aux in the Lumbo 32?

[LongTim]

OK. Long meetings last night and some furious Skyping between Japan, Argentina, South Africa and Argentina. Looks like we have a solution. At the end of the day it is a decision based around what sort of boat we want to end up with... a small keelboat capable of short offshore sprints or a big sportsboat which doesn't race above Cat 4. All along we have tried to keep the boat 'simple, fast and affordable' and the final engine solution stays with that philosophy.

30 foot is a funny zone with no obvious solutions - somewhere between a full diesel and sail drive and an outboard. Problem is the outboards end up pretty big when you're talking about efficient propulsion of a two tonne yacht!

We've had some great advice and, wow, some really good feedback in here. Of course you can get a committee to design a horse and end up with a camel... I won't discuss the obvious result of a similar exercise. JSA loves hearing all the ideas and isn't precious about all the input. He's the final umpire and I like what I see. More soon when I have some more pretty lines to show. Thanks a million for the input SA team!

[Christian]

OK. Long meetings last night and some furious Skyping between Japan, Argentina, South Africa and Argentina. Looks like we have a solution. At the end of the day it is a decision based around what sort of boat we want to end up with... a small keelboat capable of short offshore sprints or a big sportsboat which doesn't race above Cat 4. All along we have tried to keep the boat 'simple, fast and affordable' and the final engine solution stays with that philosophy.

30 foot is a funny zone with no obvious solutions - somewhere between a full diesel and sail drive and an outboard. Problem is the outboards end up pretty big when you're talking about efficient propulsion of a two tonne yacht!

We've had some great advice and, wow, some really good feedback in here. Of course you can get a committee to design a horse and end up with a camel... I won't discuss the obvious result of a similar exercise. JSA loves hearing all the ideas and isn't precious about all the input. He's the final umpire and I like what I see. More soon when I have some more pretty lines to show. Thanks a million for the input SA team!

If you end up going the sail drive route (although it is going to cost you some speed due to friction also meaning that the boat will plane later) there are some alternatives to the diesel - here is one of them: http://www.saildrive.se/

[Polaris]

This is simple and works great.

 CROexterior.gif   15.95K   100 downloads

Henderson 30 contained retractable outboard

How do you charge your batteries on offshore events?

[LongTim]

This is simple and works great.

 CROexterior.gif   15.95K   100 downloads

Henderson 30 contained retractable outboard

How do you charge your batteries on offshore events?

The motor selected is a 4 stroke with alternator, electric start and remote cockpit control. But, as with the Soto 40 and IRC, I would squarely and fairly state that the Soto 30 is not designed primarily for 'offshore' sailing. As such, in OD specification the yacht would comply with Category 4 only. From a stability and construction standpoint the yacht is more than able to compete in higher categories should the owner wish to invest in the extra equipment necessary. But I am not going to be selling the yacht with the word 'offshore' in the features and benefits list. The Soto 30 is an affordable, fast, contemporary 9.1 metre yacht designed for inshore racing in a strict OD class, just like the Soto 40. Sorry to harp on about it but we don't want to be confused or misquoted on this issue.

[dogwatch]

a big sportsboat which doesn't race above Cat 4.

History indicates sod all market for big sportsboats in the UK. YMMV.

[LongTim]

a big sportsboat which doesn't race above Cat 4.

History indicates sod all market for big sportsboats in the UK. YMMV.

Great tip! Thanks.... I agree. But why haven't they bought the Soto 40? lol

[StayinStrewn]

This is simple and works great.

 CROexterior.gif   15.95K   100 downloads

Henderson 30 contained retractable outboard

How do you charge your batteries on offshore events?

The motor selected is a 4 stroke with alternator, electric start and remote cockpit control. But, as with the Soto 40 and IRC, I would squarely and fairly state that the Soto 30 is not designed primarily for 'offshore' sailing. As such, in OD specification the yacht would comply with Category 4 only. From a stability and construction standpoint the yacht is more than able to compete in higher categories should the owner wish to invest in the extra equipment necessary. But I am not going to be selling the yacht with the word 'offshore' in the features and benefits list. The Soto 30 is an affordable, fast, contemporary 9.1 metre yacht designed for inshore racing in a strict OD class, just like the Soto 40. Sorry to harp on about it but we don't want to be confused or misquoted on this issue.

good to clarify...so with the 4 stroke, what's the plan for housing the engine and how is it going thru the hull?

[dogwatch]

But why haven't they bought the Soto 40?

I could only speculate but have you asked any of the Farr 45 owners? That's the well-established big-boat inshore OD scene here.

[LongTim]

This is simple and works great.

 CROexterior.gif   15.95K   100 downloads

Henderson 30 contained retractable outboard

How do you charge your batteries on offshore events?

The motor selected is a 4 stroke with alternator, electric start and remote cockpit control. But, as with the Soto 40 and IRC, I would squarely and fairly state that the Soto 30 is not designed primarily for 'offshore' sailing. As such, in OD specification the yacht would comply with Category 4 only. From a stability and construction standpoint the yacht is more than able to compete in higher categories should the owner wish to invest in the extra equipment necessary. But I am not going to be selling the yacht with the word 'offshore' in the features and benefits list. The Soto 30 is an affordable, fast, contemporary 9.1 metre yacht designed for inshore racing in a strict OD class, just like the Soto 40. Sorry to harp on about it but we don't want to be confused or misquoted on this issue.

good to clarify...so with the 4 stroke, what's the plan for housing the engine and how is it going thru the hull?

Can you give us a week or so to tick off everything with the designer please. I don't want to pre-empt the final FINAL until it's 'final', if that's OK. But, yes, it goes in a housing and thru the hull but with a few vital improvements to keep the boat fast. For example we don't want to drag around 50 litres of water in a well.

[StayinStrewn]

This is simple and works great.

 CROexterior.gif   15.95K   100 downloads

Henderson 30 contained retractable outboard

How do you charge your batteries on offshore events?

The motor selected is a 4 stroke with alternator, electric start and remote cockpit control. But, as with the Soto 40 and IRC, I would squarely and fairly state that the Soto 30 is not designed primarily for 'offshore' sailing. As such, in OD specification the yacht would comply with Category 4 only. From a stability and construction standpoint the yacht is more than able to compete in higher categories should the owner wish to invest in the extra equipment necessary. But I am not going to be selling the yacht with the word 'offshore' in the features and benefits list. The Soto 30 is an affordable, fast, contemporary 9.1 metre yacht designed for inshore racing in a strict OD class, just like the Soto 40. Sorry to harp on about it but we don't want to be confused or misquoted on this issue.

good to clarify...so with the 4 stroke, what's the plan for housing the engine and how is it going thru the hull?

Can you give us a week or so to tick off everything with the designer please. I don't want to pre-empt the final FINAL until it's 'final', if that's OK. But, yes, it goes in a housing and thru the hull but with a few vital improvements to keep the boat fast. For example we don't want to drag around 50 litres of water in a well.

fair enough...wasn't sure if that was decided already...

[eerie sailor]

40 watts of flexible solar panels. Works great; also.

This is simple and works great.

 CROexterior.gif   15.95K   100 downloads

Henderson 30 contained retractable outboard

How do you charge your batteries on offshore events?

[richiec]

Build update? New pics? Bueller?

[LongTim]

Build update? New pics? Bueller?

Nuffin exciting at the moment. The molds are made but let's wait until we pull the first boat out then we might have something to show. Some little details being massaged at the moment to continually improve every aspect of the specification so the first boat hitting the water will be as up to date and contemporary as possible. Good bye electric engine - hello petrol outboard in sealed well (and not where you'd expect it). Goodbye upside-down vang - hello in-boom vang purchase. Goodbye luff foil - hello something a lot easier! Goodbye halyard winches - hello halyard locks and jib/main cunninghams (custom designed for S30). Just little details but all add up to a better boat. The OD Rules are being reviewed by the Management Group and some of the early adopters are getting a say as well. All that should be collated and decided in the next few weeks as well. Get some new pics up when the factory shoots something interesting through.

[jpchirinos]

First Soto 33 out of the mould

http://4.bp.blogspot...8_5174621_n.jpg

http://3.bp.blogspot...6_3690028_n.jpg

http://1.bp.blogspot...7_2455529_n.jpg

When the Soto 30 Tim?

http://juanpa-cadari...-del-molde.html

[LongTim]

Here's some deck plug pics. First hull is in the mold. Just chipping away at the project and getting everything right!

More at....
http://www.longitudeyachts.com/SotoYachts/30_progress.html

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[LongTim]

Unable to update our longitude yachts website atm (if the internet was a sick animal, you'd shoot it!). Sorry if you've been checking. So there are some other recent Soto 30 pics at....

http://juanpa-cadario.blogspot.com/

Will have all the final specs announced this week.... IF I can get Mr Website happening. AAaaaggghhhhh!

[LongTim]

Bulb plug heads to the foundry. Hull #1 in the mold. T

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•  IMG_3025.jpg   79.12K   41 downloads
•  IMG_3031.jpg   84.22K   44 downloads

[LongTim]

No, no!!! The interior isn't green. It's a mold release thingy... phew! The inner grid, keel case and bunks for the new Soto 30

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•  IMG_4624.jpg   111.61K   56 downloads

[LongTim]

and a little closer...

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•  IMG_4625.jpg   96.45K   75 downloads

[LongTim]

Now that's a cockpit!

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•  Mold 012.jpg   108.12K   62 downloads

[Somebody Else]

and a little closer...

http://forums.sailin...ttach_id=165697

I like this!

Looks like it will be stiff and strong!

[solosailor]

4 stroke engines can't be stored horizontally.

Since when? Sticker on my last 2 said it was fine and lay mine inside the hull every sail on it's side.

[LongTim]

The green stuff is the outside finish of the internal structure mold... it won't be green! And the finish is obviously slick and smooth.

Yes, it's fairly traditional but we want the boat to be strong.

and a little closer...

http://forums.sailin...ttach_id=165697

I like this!

Looks like it will be stiff and strong!

It's a moot point. The storage of the outboard is horizontal.

4 stroke engines can't be stored horizontally.

Since when? Sticker on my last 2 said it was fine and lay mine inside the hull every sail on it's side.

[LongTim]

Deck for #1 out and ready to be fitted to the hull. Saving gelcoat in the middle of the cockpit for the custom non-skid for the cockpit floor. The rest of the deck surface has a proprietary non-skid pattern that does something the other molded non-skid patterns do - it actually stops you from slipping! The largest working cockpit in a 30 foot production boat. Space to race and swing the proverbial cat!

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•  IMG_4799.jpg   43.06K   84 downloads
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[jolly]

Deck for #1 out and ready to be fitted to the hull. Saving gelcoat in the middle of the cockpit for the custom non-skid for the cockpit floor. The rest of the deck surface has a proprietary non-skid pattern that does something the other molded non-skid patterns do - it actually stops you from slipping! The largest working cockpit in a 30 foot production boat. Space to race and swing the proverbial cat!

Built in China right?


when it's done can you slide it in to Hong Kong so we can have a look-see before it goes to oz?


what will it rate under SMS?

[LongTim]

Deck for #1 out and ready to be fitted to the hull. Saving gelcoat in the middle of the cockpit for the custom non-skid for the cockpit floor. The rest of the deck surface has a proprietary non-skid pattern that does something the other molded non-skid patterns do - it actually stops you from slipping! The largest working cockpit in a 30 foot production boat. Space to race and swing the proverbial cat!

Built in China right?


when it's done can you slide it in to Hong Kong so we can have a look-see before it goes to oz?


what will it rate under SMS?

Built in China right?
Yep

when it's done can you slide it in to Hong Kong so we can have a look-see before it goes to oz?
Tempt me Would like to do that... can someone advise on logistics on where we could launch the boat if we were to make a stop in HK?

what will it rate under SMS?
Sorry, got absolutely no idea. I have an IRC and AMS application ready to go... could those measurements be used to get an SMS rating?

[jolly]

Deck for #1 out and ready to be fitted to the hull. Saving gelcoat in the middle of the cockpit for the custom non-skid for the cockpit floor. The rest of the deck surface has a proprietary non-skid pattern that does something the other molded non-skid patterns do - it actually stops you from slipping! The largest working cockpit in a 30 foot production boat. Space to race and swing the proverbial cat!

Built in China right?


when it's done can you slide it in to Hong Kong so we can have a look-see before it goes to oz?


what will it rate under SMS?

Built in China right?
Yep

when it's done can you slide it in to Hong Kong so we can have a look-see before it goes to oz?
Tempt me Would like to do that... can someone advise on logistics on where we could launch the boat if we were to make a stop in HK?

I'm sure RHKYC would be interested to have it on their premises, so you could do a Soto 30 brand launch. Best to contact SailCom at RHK to see if this was possible.

what will it rate under SMS?
Sorry, got absolutely no idea. I have an IRC and AMS application ready to go... could those measurements be used to get an SMS rating?



SMS is the Oz sportsboats rating system, and derived from AMS (see link), which is more for larger keel boats. maybe 9m is too long for SMS, but weight at 1700kg should be OK

http://www.vic.yacht...-09 Amend 3.pdf


any idea what the IRC rating will be? My guess.......1.130

[LongTim]

Maybe we'll have to have a 'nearest the post' prize for the closest guess on the ratings. Really, I have no idea and as an OD boat we don't want to dwell on the ratings anyway but understand we need to play in that realm until a few little fleets get established... just like the 40 did.

[nmanno]

If you wanted to show the boat to the hk sportsboat crowd, let me know. You could launch the boat at the rhkyc. I am sure you would find some people interested.

[LongTim]

Great idea. Please send me an email and I will get some more info from you.

info@longitudeyachts.com

If you wanted to show the boat to the hk sportsboat crowd, let me know. You could launch the boat at the rhkyc. I am sure you would find some people interested.

[edcoxy]

Hi,

Does any one know if you will be able to put the soto 30 on a road trailer?????


cheers

[trenace]

It is too wide for routine trailering. (9'7").

[prozak]

OK. This is all great. Having a designer with a ruler and pencil coming up with a great looking system has failed in the past. The real word is very different when it comes to all these 'easy' solutions. I'm getting a little jolly about this jetski propulsion idea. So Anarchists, where can I go to source an engine (and assorted plumbing) so I can get the team to check over the idea and maybe do a trial. The electric was a great idea, the Plan B is fine but uninspiring. Let's come up with a kick arse Plan C and prove an ongoing solution for sportsboats of this size. Give me a kick start and I'll take it from there. (I have a personal interest in this aspect of the boat because I was the idiot who pushed so hard for the original electric engine idea)

Where do you get off continuously taking shots at designers?

Lets ask JK how many times he has had to get ideas on a forum and ask for details for plan fucking C for a propulsion system. Ffs.

[Mojounwin]

How's the progress? When is it expected to hit the water?

Cheers
Mojo

[LongTim]

Believe the 'Spanish Inquisition' (mBoats) is heading to China to 'tick' off the first boat. Masts already on the way, sails being made, motor sitting in the box, colour scheme ready to stick on. Spending this week gearing up to announce the regattas the Soto 30 will be appearing and a 'tour of duty' for the first yacht. There's just not a lot to talk about atm and not going to bore you with any more factory shots. As soon as I know delivery and launch dates, you will too! Happy to answer questions if people want to know more....

[Left Hook]

What was the final solution on propulsion?

[LongTim]

What was the final solution on propulsion?

Attached. The 'question' was basically market research to the many, many sailors who use these systems day after day. As mentioned before, the 30ft racing genre fits somewhere between an inboard and outboard solution - neither is ideal, neither is going to make everyone happy. Designers have their own ideas but we wanted to market-test any ideas before they were incorporated. Designing a 'world boat' is so complex because different markets (indeed different clubs) have their own challenges that make having one system more ideal than another. We are not apologetic for researching widely through Sailing Anarchy and many other forums, meetings, users, abusers and 'experts' before coming up with the final solution. Personally, would have loved a light, retractable electric engine costing about $500... lol. Of course it doesn't exist. Given that we use the auxiliary about 1% of the time I figure it's time to move on and see how the boat 'sails'.

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•  Soto 30 engine.jpg   655.62K   331 downloads

[LongTim]

OK. So I got some new pics through from the builder yesterday. I know I said I wouldn't post any more build pics but, well, I can't help myself.

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[LongTim]

That chine is much more subtle than I thought it would be. The bow is a 'statement' but has practical purposes as well.

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[Somebody Else]

I know I said I wouldn't post any more build pics but, well, I can't help myself.

Please! Post many and often!

[Philc]

I know I said I wouldn't post any more build pics but, well, I can't help myself.

Please! Post many and often!

+1

[BarePoles]

that is one sexy beast!! the soto 30 just exudes coolness.

[Code 2]

That chine is much more subtle than I thought it would be. The bow is a 'statement' but has practical purposes as well.

Sweet - Looks like I need to start saving some pennies - Please keep posting - this is getting better as we see the finished product.

Cheers!

[Code 2]

Any plans for kelp cutter options? Apologies if I missed it in the spec.

[LongTim]

Any plans for kelp cutter options? Apologies if I missed it in the spec.

Not included in the 'spec' at the moment. Understand the problem but most of the world is lucky enough not to worry about it. Is there an easy 'post' fitment of kelp cutters? If there is, I should know about it to assist other similar enquiries. T

[punter]

Where's the "like" button? It certainly is looking good.

[Code 2]

Any plans for kelp cutter options? Apologies if I missed it in the spec.

Not included in the 'spec' at the moment. Understand the problem but most of the world is lucky enough not to worry about it. Is there an easy 'post' fitment of kelp cutters? If there is, I should know about it to assist other similar enquiries. T

I like the torpedo bulb - but here in SoCal kelp is more than occasionally an issue. Somebody Else seems like a smart guy and active in this thread - maybe he can shed some light on how the option might work?

[LongTim]

Where's the "like" button? It certainly is looking good.

The 'Like' button is connected to your cheque book

[Somebody Else]

Kelp is a significant issue for 450 nautical miles of California coastline from San Diego to Santa Cruz. There are something like 15 harbors with active racing fleets in that stretch.

There was a [mostly] inconclusive thread on this almost exactly 2 years ago: forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php?showtopic=98872

I am not very familiar with modern kelp solutions except for the systems on the Melges 24 and the Schock 40. The Melges system is the more effective of the two but very expensive to retrofit on a keel not designed for it. And if it's not on every boat, it makes it not one-design by altering water flow slightly around the leading edge slit. The Schock 40 system would be a lot cheaper and probably less of an impact on one-design performance, but still not trivial: boring an accurately located hole in the bottom of the boat, glassing in a bushing, sealing against water ingress, etc.

Other than those two there's the old curved wand with the sweatshirt taped to the end, the PVC pipe with the knotted cable or similar kelp sticks manually deployed from the weather rail in a hit-or-miss fashion and frustratingly difficult with T-bulb ballast. Flossing a [sometimes knotted] cable from side to side as two crew walk it back from the top-forward corner of the keel only works with old-style heavily swept fins -- IOR style. The 1995-era Farr "L" keels are abut the latest designs on which the flossing method works.

I'd like to hear about other methods.
_________________

The Schock 40 way:

Notice the large window aft of the bearing.

Without a window you are really stabbing in the dark.

[LongTim]

Kelp is a significant issue for 450 nautical miles of California coastline from San Diego to Santa Cruz. There are something like 15 harbors with active racing fleets in that stretch.

There was a [mostly] inconclusive thread on this almost exactly 2 years ago: forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php?showtopic=98872

I am not very familiar with modern kelp solutions except for the systems on the Melges 24 and the Schock 40. The Melges system is the more effective of the two but very expensive to retrofit on a keel not designed for it. And if it's not on every boat, it makes it not one-design by altering water flow slightly around the leading edge slit. The Schock 40 system would be a lot cheaper and probably less of an impact on one-design performance, but still not trivial: boring an accurately located hole in the bottom of the boat, glassing in a bushing, sealing against water ingress, etc.

Other than those two there's the old curved wand with the sweatshirt taped to the end, the PVC pipe with the knotted cable or similar kelp sticks manually deployed from the weather rail in a hit-or-miss fashion and frustratingly difficult with T-bulb ballast. Flossing a [sometimes knotted] cable from side to side as two crew walk it back from the top-forward corner of the keel only works with old-style heavily swept fins -- IOR style. The 1995-era Farr "L" keels are abut the latest designs on which the flossing method works.

I'd like to hear about other methods.
_________________

The Schock 40 way:

Notice the large window aft of the bearing.

Without a window you are really stabbing in the dark.

Great info. Goodness, I had no idea it was such an extensive problem along the coast. I look forward to any other ideas from this wonderful resource.

[Mojounwin]

Looking Smick!!!!

[LongTim]

OK. Here's another one...

Attached Files

•  IMG_5058.jpg   200.16K   115 downloads

[Somebody Else]

Here's a nice little wad we picked up near RW "SD" off the infamous Pt. Loma, entrance to San Diego Harbor.

[Matt B]

Here's a nice little wad we picked up near RW "SD" off the infamous Pt. Loma, entrance to San Diego Harbor.

A kelp cutter on your keel wouldnt have helped much.

[BarePoles]

Here's a nice little wad we picked up near RW "SD" off the infamous Pt. Loma, entrance to San Diego Harbor.

A kelp cutter on your keel wouldnt have helped much.

Yeah, with all those lines dragging in the water.

[LongTim]

A great little article in 'Sailing Magazine'. A few things have changed (like the 'retractable electric outboard' and I have no idea where they got the price from???!!! ... the Soto 30 is US$119,000 ex factory, plus sails, shipping and taxes - maybe they did their own calcs on all the add on bits) But a great article anyway from one of the stalwarts of yachting, the highly respected Robert Perry. In essence he gives the Soto 30 the 'like' button. Thanks Bob.

http://www.sailingma...n/1153-soto-30-

[LongTim]

Now I've seen everything! The IRC Rating website posting the Soto 30. Maybe they know something we don't.... Reminds me, I must get the numbers in for the trial certificate! AMS as well (for the Aussies).

http://www.ircrating...31-soto-30.html

[jc172528]

Huge like.

The bow is a 'statement' but has practical purposes as well.

Which is, intimidate the opposition?

[LongTim]

Huge like.

The bow is a 'statement' but has practical purposes as well.

Which is, intimidate the opposition?

lol... hardly think so. As far as I can assume, I feel the axe-bow is a cosmetic affectation - you either like it or you don't. The Soto 30 isn't an aggressive design or a revolution in any way. It's been designed to be a fast, simple, well-mannered yacht and not an extreme design that can only be controlled by the cowboys. Balanced sailing characteristics and a yacht that could be sailed by five were two of the cornerstones of the design brief. The current S33 (which is a 1:1.1 scale of the Soto 30) has proven the design already.

The way the bow fills out above the 'knuckle' will certainly prevent the bow from nose-diving (although the Soto 40 and S33, which carry the same full bow sections, have never been 'divers'). There are so many plumb bows around these days it's nice to have something a little different to look at. Not that you'll see the bow much (sorry, couldn't resist the trash talk )

[LongTim]

Just a quick note about the Soto 30 mast. There has been a few alterations to the original specification. 1) All PBO standing rigging will now terminate at the deck 2) the aluminium spreaders have been replaced by carbon spreaders

Attached Files

•  Both mast.jpg   652.41K   88 downloads

[jc172528]

There are so many plumb bows around these days it's nice to have something a little different to look at.

Amen to that!
Cheers

[crash]

A great little article in 'Sailing Magazine'. A few things have changed (like the 'retractable electric outboard' and I have no idea where they got the price from???!!! ... the Soto 30 is US$119,000 ex factory, plus sails, shipping and taxes - maybe they did their own calcs on all the add on bits) But a great article anyway from one of the stalwarts of yachting, the highly respected Robert Perry. In essence he gives the Soto 30 the 'like' button. Thanks Bob.

http://www.sailingmagazine.net/boats/3-perry-on-design/1153-soto-30-

Their price is "sail away", so once you add taxes, sails, shipping, anchor, line, safety gear, etc, etc. this is pretty close

[Code 2]

Just a quick note about the Soto 30 mast. There has been a few alterations to the original specification. 1) All PBO standing rigging will now terminate at the deck 2) the aluminium spreaders have been replaced by carbon spreaders

Interesting choice for PBO on the standing rigging - is the reasoning weight savings? Cost factor alone seems to make this a grand prix sorta specification on a 30' boat. I could be wrong but doesnt PBO have to be replaced every 3 - 5 years?

[LongTim]

Yes, it is a bit 'grand prix' but the Soto 30 is not a budget boat with cheap components and is not aimed at the 'throw-away' type market. PBO has been a great success with the Soto 40 and super-reliable. PowerLite, the suppliers of the standing rigging, provide a 5 year warranty on the product and the weight advantages are enough to make it warranted. You can take the argument to all sorts of extents in the price/value/weight area but we have found the PBO to be a worthy and reliable product from this manufacturer. At the end of the day the Soto 30 is a performance yacht, hence going for light outboards and not dragging a prop around the course whilst you are racing. Even carbon rigging was investigated but just too pricey to make it an option at this stage. Believe me, this issue has been brought up over just about every component on the yacht as it's evolved to where it is now. We've sought the thoughts and commentary from all sorts of sources to come up with, in our opinion, the best 30 footer possible in today's market. It will have the racing space of a much larger yacht, the speed to match the fastest 30s around and the balanced sailing features of other JSA designs. And it looks a bit different too.

[Code 2]

No question the boat looks fantastic. Not dragging around a saildrive and some offshore capability make this a fun ride. Keep posting the build and looking forward to hearing when the boat is in the water.

[LongTim]

Thanks. There is no one keener than I to see the yacht in the water, racing and having fun!! I'll certainly keep you all posted, be assured. Getting pics out of the factory is not easy. Would someone send up a photographer!

[andym]

Did I miss something?
When did this price go up?
I have been away racing!

[LongTim]

it's been US 119,000 for five months or so....

[_DC_]

Boat looks like fun. How difficult would it be to get it to cat 4 in Oz? Would be fun to do things like the lion island race on the right day! Also Hamo, Geelong etc.
Also I hope the winches won't be "radial"

[LongTim]

Boat looks like fun. How difficult would it be to get it to cat 4 in Oz? Would be fun to do things like the lion island race on the right day! Also Hamo, Geelong etc.
Also I hope the winches won't be "radial"

The yacht is delivered in Cat 4 specification. Haven't seen the word 'radial' referred to in any of the spec sheets. I've sent a note off to the factory to get clarification. Will report back asap. T

[LongTim]

_DC_ the winches on the yacht are Radial. Sorry if that doesn't suit you. What's your issue with 'radial' winches?

[trenace]

He may have had a problem with the older ones with the sandpaper-looking drums. They had poor grip. That has been fixed with the new ones.

[Philc]

Tim,

Are the first two still comming to Australia?

Both to Melbourne?

Regards,

Philc.

[_DC_]

Good to hear.
Radials? Poor grip, rough feeling, hard to ease smoothly. I think what happens is where the standing end meets the winch the splines in effect vary the diameter of the drum, so the rate of take up varies, This creates a slight but unpleasant roughness while grinding. When easing it is hard to ease less than "one spline pitch". Harkens Performa line looks to me like the "Coke Classic" of drums over the new internals.
Sorry if this looks like a rant/hijack.
When will we see a boat in Sydney?

[LongTim]

First one to Melbourne. Looks like the second will be in Asia as of today but I'll tell you when the cheque's in the bank!

As per the 'radial' winch issue, my understanding, after discussing with a few people, is that the earlier problems have been addressed. Good to have feedback on all aspects of the yacht and it makes us more vigilant to get things 'right' or as right as we can. No yacht will ever make everyone happy.

[_DC_]

Cool, how are the one design rules coming along?

[LongTim]

Cool, how are the one design rules coming along?

The draft has been completed for 6 months but we want to launch and sail the yacht before finally publishing as, again, we want to ensure that everything is 'right'. A read of the Soto 40 OD Class Rules will give you a pretty close idea of what to expect. No surprises.

[LongTim]

Updated brochure, newsletter and everything you'd want to know about the Soto 30. Also compiling a comprehensive specification sheet at the moment which I will publish soon.

http://www.longitude...ts/Soto_30.html

[Alysum]

Boat looks like fun. How difficult would it be to get it to cat 4 in Oz? Would be fun to do things like the lion island race on the right day! Also Hamo, Geelong etc.
Also I hope the winches won't be "radial"

The yacht is delivered in Cat 4 specification. Haven't seen the word 'radial' referred to in any of the spec sheets. I've sent a note off to the factory to get clarification. Will report back asap. T

Extra kudos - that's $5k savings