5666 replies to this topic

[Boomberries]

Fascinating............keep it up. (Man I need to take me a PNW vacation.)

Yes, you do!! Bring your beautiful wife along. What fun it would be to all get together and celebrate CA.
Kimb, that amazing cedar aroma will permeate the new building. ... yummmm

[Jose Carumba]

Well Sons, call me a codger but I have to disagree with you on the hand drafting issue. Of the people who have come through our office the ones who created the best drawings, easiest to read on the shop floor have been ones who have drawn by hand,even if it was just in a class. Same goes for those who best understand a fair line. There is no computer generated curve or spline which mimics the characteristics of a good wooden spline. I've designed in CAD for 27 years now and can say that what I learned on the boards has helped me be a better CAD designer. I think any designer should spend at least a few months at a drafting board. Counter-rant over.

[WHL]

I agree Jose. There's something more satisfying to me at least, about drafting and drawing by hand, even though I use software a lot of the time. You can't see a fair curve as easily on a screen as you can getting your eye down to the table.

[Soñadora]

p-shaw....

I will say that getting a fair line has less to do with whether you use pencil or CAD than it has to do with the artistic ability of the designer - regardless of the tool. The problem with CAD is that there is an impression you do not have to be 'artistic' in order to create 'fair' geometry. So, you have a higher percentage of knuckleheads thinking they can design.

Jose, you know you're not going to convince me otherwise, right?

WHL, you are being sentimental

[puddin]

Sketch up sure has proved that point in architecture, Sons! Sad thing is, most offices actually think it's necessary to use it when in fact they're just being cheap skates.

[Soñadora]

well...the whole CAD vs. hand drawing has been beaten to death in The Circles so I'll stop blathering about it.

This is Sliver's place to shine.

Sorry for the hijack.

[puddin]

I agree Jose. There's something more satisfying to me at least, about drafting and drawing by hand, even though I use software a lot of the time. You can't see a fair curve as easily on a screen as you can getting your eye down to the table.

Very few have monitors big enough to see the whole sheet at the printed scale. No peripheral vision comes into play like the old days on a drafting board. Zoom in, zoom out, scroll scroll scroll click.... great view of the bark beetles eating the trees, but the forest has long been logged out and converted to pasture land.

[Jose Carumba]

You must learn to trust the force Sons.

WHL: There are tools and some tricks for checking fairness using just the screen, without laying your cheek on the glass,depending on your software.

[Jose Carumba]

Puddin, I agree. I miss my 8' table. Waiting for an 8' screen.

Agreed, hijack over.

[WHL]

You must learn to trust the force Sons.

WHL: There are tools and some tricks for checking fairness using just the screen, without laying your cheek on the glass,depending on your software.

I know I know... but I was talking about what's more satisfying as opposed to all the other positives about CAD

[blackjenner]

That's good to know Kim. The boat building industry needs well qualified workers. It sounds like the school, if not already, may soon rival The Landing School. Do you plan on offering any design curriculum?

Joe

I frankly do not know if the School has any thought on a design course. I have not heard of any, I will ask.

(We could score big time if we could get Bob to teach it.)

Kim

If they do end up with a design course, please, please, PLEASE do not force students to spend 2 years with a pencil . In fact, I have been kicking around the idea of designing a course that doesn't use any pencils at all. Sacrilege, I know. But drawing with a pencil is not a prerequisite to understanding boat design. I have been drafting for almost 30 years and half of that was with pencil. I do not long for the old days.

I started the Westlawn course and when it became clear to me that my drafting experience was not worth a damn to them (which ultimately ended in me being censored on their forum), I gave it up. A boat design course that starts with AutoCAD right out of the gate would help students learn more about boat design by focusing on theory rather then line weights and smudges. Use a planimeter to get the area of a 2d shape? wtf. One click in AutoCAD. Done. Now you can move on to understanding how to use that area rather than how to use a planimeter (as cool as that is).

ok. rant off.

As an artist with extensive experience in pencil, ink, acrylic and oils, not to mention photography, I could not agree with you more.

My pencil skills served me no good at all when I went back to school in 2002 to study technical drawing again and started using Autocad.

[blackjenner]

Well Sons, call me a codger but I have to disagree with you on the hand drafting issue. Of the people who have come through our office the ones who created the best drawings, easiest to read on the shop floor have been ones who have drawn by hand,even if it was just in a class. Same goes for those who best understand a fair line. There is no computer generated curve or spline which mimics the characteristics of a good wooden spline. I've designed in CAD for 27 years now and can say that what I learned on the boards has helped me be a better CAD designer. I think any designer should spend at least a few months at a drafting board. Counter-rant over.

Oh, I won't say that learning the meaning of curves and art with a pencil isn't useful. It teaches you to put down on paper what you see in your mind, what you need to express. My own point in support of Son was, don't get all mired down in the technical minutiae of creating technical drawings as the final expression of the work.

I mean, I know how to do things the old way in many things but, the new way works just as well. Sometimes we cling too much to the past.

[Tom Ray]

Puddin, I agree. I miss my 8' table. Waiting for an 8' screen.

Agreed, hijack over.

Actually, they are now making giant tables that are monitors, so we can all just get along again.

[Soñadora]

One thing you haven't mentioned Kim...

tell us about the PARTY where the gang from CA will be there. I will definitely be making that trip

[kimbottles]

One thing you haven't mentioned Kim...

tell us about the PARTY where the gang from CA will be there. I will definitely be making that trip

I would suggest that people plan to be here for the Port Townsend Wooden Boat Festival. Hopefully we will have something interesting to show you at the School by then.

Sept 9-11, 2011

http://www.woodenboat.org/festival/

The School is located about ten miles south of Port Townsend in Port Hadlock, WA

[Bob Perry]

A computer is just a fancy, expensive pencil. And,,,, it has the infinite zoom ability.
Yes, drawing by hand for years makes me better on acad but I really like acad.

Today I have to send prints to a guy who owns one of my boats built in the late 70's.
This means, finding the tube of drawings.
Unrolling drawings that have not beeen unrolled for years.
Sorting thu the drawings to see what I need to send this guy.
Rolling them up again.
Driving to town 30 minutes away and ordering prints.
Going for Chinese food, while my prints are being done. Actually today I'll go for the Korean/Chinese dish , Chow ma mien.
Driving back to the printers. Pay for the prints. Buy a tube for mailing them.
Drive 30 minutes to the mailing store trust, a UPS store. Pay for the delivery and then drive back home.
Drive another 30 m inutes back home. ( Oh the joy of living in the sticks.) "It sure is quiet out here." "No shit."
Take the drawings and reintegrate them with the rest of the originals and file them back in my archive shelves.

It sure would be nice to email some acad .dwg files. I can do that in less than 5 minutes.
Of course I could have all my old drawings digitized.
Right! Can you imagine how many old drawings I have. No, you can't.

[Jose Carumba]

A computer is just a fancy, expensive pencil. And,,,, it has the infinite zoom ability.
Yes, drawing by hand for years makes me better on acad but I really like acad.

Today I have to send prints to a guy who owns one of my boats built in the late 70's.
This means, finding the tube of drawings.
Unrolling drawings that have not beeen unrolled for years.
Sorting thu the drawings to see what I need to send this guy.
Rolling them up again.
Driving to town 30 minutes away and ordering prints.
Going for Chinese food, while my prints are being done. Actually today I'll go for the Korean/Chinese dish , Chow ma mien.
Driving back to the printers. Pay for the prints. Buy a tube for mailing them.
Drive 30 minutes to the mailing store trust, a UPS store. Pay for the delivery and then drive back home.
Drive another 30 m inutes back home. ( Oh the joy of living in the sticks.) "It sure is quiet out here." "No shit."
Take the drawings and reintegrate them with the rest of the originals and file them back in my archive shelves.

It sure would be nice to email some acad .dwg files. I can do that in less than 5 minutes.
Of course I could have all my old drawings digitized.
Right! Can you imagine how many old drawings I have. No, you can't.

Just did that the other day. Went up to our "attic" and filtered through 50-60 drawings (this for one project) to find one for an older boat. What a pain.

[SemiSalt]

I remember reading a comment by one designer (probably Ted Brewer) on a drawing by another designer (maybe Gary Mull) in which the lines were color coded. He said it seemed like a good idea, but they all reproduced as black when copied. So, the technology has advanced some.

I don't see any reason to master the skills of using the old-style pens and India ink, at least for design.

[Soñadora]

Sounds great Kim. I think that gives us enough advance notice to make plans

[Gatekeeper]

Today I have to send prints to a guy who owns one of my boats built in the late 70's.
This means, finding the tube of drawings.
Unrolling drawings that have not beeen unrolled for years.
Sorting thu the drawings to see what I need to send this guy.
Rolling them up again.
Driving to town 30 minutes away and ordering prints.
Going for Chinese food, while my prints are being done. Actually today I'll go for the Korean/Chinese dish , Chow ma mien.
Driving back to the printers. Pay for the prints. Buy a tube for mailing them.
Drive 30 minutes to the mailing store trust, a UPS store. Pay for the delivery and then drive back home.
Drive another 30 m inutes back home. ( Oh the joy of living in the sticks.) "It sure is quiet out here." "No shit."
Take the drawings and reintegrate them with the rest of the originals and file them back in my archive shelves.

Bob

You just never know what might grow from those efforts...I'll tell you a story sometime.

[NACRADUDE]

On the Cadd issue. I have been a Mechanical Engineer for going on 30 years now. Started on the board and evelved into the electronic age on AutoCadd 11 (Which sucked). It's the same way of thinking looking at the old drawings of yore and they can almost resemble works of art the way things were drawn.

However, with the evolution currently going on in AutoCadd with the Revit 3D modeling and structural design ability, there is no comparison. Agreed there is a certain romance about putting pen to paper, but with the new technology available, Bob would be able to design in 3D as well as have virtual models of mocked up fitouts as well as interiors that you could actually fly cyberly through as well as do it in 1/10th the time a hand drawn boat would take. Less time to design, better more complete presentation equals more time to envision thus more boats being designed and more money in Bobs pocket. It's the future guys, time to accept the computer age.

[Soñadora]

On the Cadd issue. I have been a Mechanical Engineer for going on 30 years now. Started on the board and evelved into the electronic age on AutoCadd 11 (Which sucked). It's the same way of thinking looking at the old drawings of yore and they can almost resemble works of art the way things were drawn.

However, with the evolution currently going on in AutoCadd with the Revit 3D modeling and structural design ability, there is no comparison. Agreed there is a certain romance about putting pen to paper, but with the new technology available, Bob would be able to design in 3D as well as have virtual models of mocked up fitouts as well as interiors that you could actually fly cyberly through as well as do it in 1/10th the time a hand drawn boat would take. Less time to design, better more complete presentation equals more time to envision thus more boats being designed and more money in Bobs pocket. It's the future guys, time to accept the computer age.

no way! 3D?!

you mean like this...

 main9.JPG   367.77K   179 downloads

or like this...

 main2.JPG   103.94K   214 downloads

or like this...

 stbd_section_2.JPG   365.02K   199 downloads




I tried....really, I did...

[Bob Perry]

Nacra:
I started fiddling around with acad many years ago teaching myself. I did not working srawings with acad.
The help converted quickl;y but I stuck witth my trusty mechanical pencil and well work curves and triangles and a drafting machine that must be at least 80 years old. I kid you not and I still have it.
The we designed the 65'er ICON.

My drawings were works of art.
I sent them off to Marten Marine in NZ and got a curt reply, "Please no hand drawings. We need everything in acad so we can convert to metric"

Baptsim by fire I think they call it.

[miloman]

A computer is just a fancy, expensive pencil. And,,,, it has the infinite zoom ability.
Yes, drawing by hand for years makes me better on acad but I really like acad.

Today I have to send prints to a guy who owns one of my boats built in the late 70's.
This means, finding the tube of drawings.
Unrolling drawings that have not beeen unrolled for years.
Sorting thu the drawings to see what I need to send this guy.
Rolling them up again.
Driving to town 30 minutes away and ordering prints.
Going for Chinese food, while my prints are being done. Actually today I'll go for the Korean/Chinese dish , Chow ma mien.
Driving back to the printers. Pay for the prints. Buy a tube for mailing them.
Drive 30 minutes to the mailing store trust, a UPS store. Pay for the delivery and then drive back home.
Drive another 30 m inutes back home. ( Oh the joy of living in the sticks.) "It sure is quiet out here." "No shit."
Take the drawings and reintegrate them with the rest of the originals and file them back in my archive shelves.

It sure would be nice to email some acad .dwg files. I can do that in less than 5 minutes.
Of course I could have all my old drawings digitized.
Right! Can you imagine how many old drawings I have. No, you can't.

I like Bob's analogy of a fancy, expensive pencil. I'd add complicated, it takes a lot longer to figure out how to use AutoCad than a pencil. I like pencils for drawing because I can control my hand better than the computer. But once you get to doing some calculations the CAD makes itself the undisputed winner.

A great designer could design a great boat with bad tools, but good ones sure make it easier. nobody would consider designing professionally in this day and age without using CAD. They simply couldn't be as competitive, or as accurate, as their colleagues using CAD. I think that most boatbuilders would also baulk at having to loft these days.

I know that some designers still use paper and pencil for preliminary work. They feel that when working from scratch (not from a parent model) they can get better preliminary drawings done more quickly by hand, and then transfer them to the computer for more detailed work. I know that Chuck Paine, and Dave Gerr both do this, I'd be curious if Bob does as well.

[Tom Ray]

Of course I could have all my old drawings digitized.
Right! Can you imagine how many old drawings I have. No, you can't.

There are places where you can send your old trunk of family photos to digitize them, and you can't be the only person who needs big drawings digitized. I'd imagine there are people in a range of fields who used to draw on big papers and now use computers. Maybe there are businesses that could digitize them for you? I guess the real work would be organizing the resulting mess of files.

[Soñadora]

Digitizing is one thing. The result is a 'bitmap'. There are programs that can vectorize drawings, but they're very expensive and not very accurate.

The best result (and extremely time-consuming) approach is to have someone draw them. A great intern-type project for, say, a certain boat building school in WA state

[svgreatwhite]

Of course I could have all my old drawings digitized.
Right! Can you imagine how many old drawings I have. No, you can't.

There are places where you can send your old trunk of family photos to digitize them, and you can't be the only person who needs big drawings digitized. I'd imagine there are people in a range of fields who used to draw on big papers and now use computers. Maybe there are businesses that could digitize them for you? I guess the real work would be organizing the resulting mess of files.

I don't think it is that easy or very cheap to scan full size drawings. Our facitity was doing that with some drawings that were nearly 50 years old. And the quality was hard to achieve with the condition of some of those drawings. It was often better to pull the old drawings when we needed info from them. Some of them were linen. That was fun to work with.

I started working in Enginering offices in 1973. I liked to do hand drawings of mechanical and piping systems. I was good, but when the chance to get on a CAD system in 1982 and learn, I jumped at the chance. I could do things on it in 3D that we could not replicate by hand. My bosses hated it because they thought I was paid too much to "draft". But I won them over when I could provide engineering data as well as drawings.

We still needed to know how to hand sketch our systems when we were onboard. And most of us did it to scale and using the same concepts as drafting. The new engineers had no training in drafting or sketching and were sometimes hard to train. Some of them would actually bring a laptop loaded with Auto Cad and do there drawings on the spot. I wasn't quite up to working that way.

Now that I am retired, I miss my Auto Cad most of all!

[Jose Carumba]

On the Cadd issue. I have been a Mechanical Engineer for going on 30 years now. Started on the board and evelved into the electronic age on AutoCadd 11 (Which sucked). It's the same way of thinking looking at the old drawings of yore and they can almost resemble works of art the way things were drawn.

However, with the evolution currently going on in AutoCadd with the Revit 3D modeling and structural design ability, there is no comparison. Agreed there is a certain romance about putting pen to paper, but with the new technology available, Bob would be able to design in 3D as well as have virtual models of mocked up fitouts as well as interiors that you could actually fly cyberly through as well as do it in 1/10th the time a hand drawn boat would take. Less time to design, better more complete presentation equals more time to envision thus more boats being designed and more money in Bobs pocket. It's the future guys, time to accept the computer age.

no way! 3D?!

you mean like this...

 main9.JPG   367.77K   179 downloads

or like this...

 main2.JPG   103.94K   214 downloads

or like this...

 stbd_section_2.JPG   365.02K   199 downloads




I tried....really, I did...

Or this? Close your eyes if you don't like powerboats.







 200-1.jpg   141.6K   34 downloads

[Soñadora]

mmmm...soft

What software is that Jose?

funny how 3D models of ships seem so tiny.

[Jose Carumba]

200 ft hull designed in Rhino. Rendered with a simple, free, rendering plugin for Rhino named, don't laugh, Auxpecker. This is one of a series done to show a client some hull shapes. We use Maxwell for photo-realistic renderings, AutoCAD for drafting, and a host of other programs for FEA, propulsion, etc.

[Soñadora]

When you say 'Rhino' you mean Orca, right?

I still can't warm up to Maxwell. Too slow. The renderer in SolidWorks uses the Mental Ray engine and in terms of speed and realism, gets pretty damn close to Maxwell. But as of 2011, SW has ditched their renderer in favor of something called Photoview 360. So far, it sucks.

[Jose Carumba]

Yes, Orca, the hull design plugin for Rhino. We are considering building a render farm to speed up rendering but I think speedy GPU based renderers like Octane or Arion may make them obsolete.

[Bob Perry]

I was really good at lofting.


I said I WAS REALLY GOOD AT LOFTNG!

God, nobody cares anymore.
I think I'll invent an app for yacht design.

[Jose Carumba]

I was really good at lofting.


I said I WAS REALLY GOOD AT LOFTNG!

God, nobody cares anymore.
I think I'll invent an app for yacht design.

Bob was it you who quipped that you feared the day when you could go to one end of a building, insert a credt card, push some buttons for, say, a "Perry style" boat then walk to the other end of the building and have it roll out the door? Sort of like a Vend-O-Yacht?

[olaf hart]

I was really good at lofting.


I said I WAS REALLY GOOD AT LOFTNG!

God, nobody cares anymore.
I think I'll invent an app for yacht design.

Then you would probably appreciate this new dovetailer from Veritas:

http://www.leevalley.com/US/wood/page.aspx?p=67335

[Bob Perry]

Fart:
My friend Steff was a sailor. But he got a disease that robbed him of the feelings in his extremeties.
He kept looking for the ultimate pocket knife so he could at least cut his own food.
He gave me a pocket knife that didn't work for him, a Gerber PAUL.
Steff died.
He was my age.

So now I carry Steff with me every day, in my pocket.
I also wear my old dead pal Larry on my head every day. ( my Glengarry)

I'm sure your knife is a wonderful tool.
My pocket knife is very special to me.

[Soñadora]

Bob

WTF do you mean WAS? as in PAST TENSE?

Jeezus. The guy's a living legend and he doesn't even know it.

Just because no one lofts any more it doesn't mean you're not still good at it.


Jose

GPU based renderers are going to open up the world to real-time, photo realistic modeling. It's only a few steps from there to virtual sex.

[Veeger]

Do you plan on offering any design curriculum?Joe

When you guys get my Design Course curriculum sorted out, will you let me know when I can enroll? (I'm tired of doodling and too old to self-teach CAD stuff)

[Hike, Bitches!]

Sounds great Kim. I think that gives us enough advance notice to make plans

Sons...+1...Sep 9. Roger!

I've been lost in database land too long..I need to get my ass back in the leading edge hardware/technology part of this computer shit...I'd love to develop a farm to help you boat designer guys get enough processing power to build your renderings in an efficient manner!! Arrrgh! (I think I am a hardware geek at heart, but have been stuck in software land too long...)

[Jose Carumba]

Jose

GPU based renderers are going to open up the world to real-time, photo realistic modeling. It's only a few steps from there to virtual sex.

Been sleeping on the Magic Fingers bed again Sons?

[kimbottles]

Today we started the Sliver Project.

My wife & I started with a moment of silence in rememberance of Spike.

This project was originally dedicated to my late father Francis Lee Bottles (1917-2001.)

Now it is dedicated to both Frank and Spike.

[kimbottles]

First we had lofting and Cad work (actually done over the last several months.) Jim Franken, Tim Nolan and Brandon Davis hard at work.

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[kimbottles]

Then there was the test cuts and test laminates. Done in the last couple weeks.

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[WHL]

Thanks Kim. What kinds of tests do they perform on the laminates?

[kimbottles]

Thanks Kim. What kinds of tests do they perform on the laminates?

I believe they were mainly done to test the weight and how well the cloth wetted out. Tim might also do some destructive testing. Tim is pretty detailed in his work.

I jumped up and down on the hull laminate sample to no effect.

Bruce did a beautiful lap joint test using a recess. It really looked nice. But it did not photo well.

[Boomberries]

Today we started the Sliver Project.
My wife & I started with a moment of silence in rememberance of Spike.
This project was originally dedicated to my late father Francis Lee Bottles (1917-2001.)

Now it is dedicated to both Frank and Spike.

A wonderful dedication.

I'm glad this beautiful project is underway ... this is exactly what pulls us together as a community and makes this place special.

[kimbottles]

Here is what actually happened today; Melamine was delivered, CNC machine was set up, Melamine dust was made in large quantities, these are deck laminate molds being produced.

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[Greever]

Very nice!

Do the cnc machines have vacum tables to hold the wood down?

[kimbottles]

Very nice!

Do the cnc machines have vacum tables to hold the wood down?

Yes the piece is held in place with a vacuum and there are vacuum portals to try to remove some of the cutting dust, but there is still much clean up to perform after a cut.

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[Soñadora]

pretty cool, Kim. What's the fancy scrollwork pieces for?

[kimbottles]

pretty cool, Kim. What's the fancy scrollwork pieces for?

That is how they scarf two pieces together to make parts bigger than the 4x8 sheets.
They call it a finger joint and it makes for a very strong assembly.

Looks cool too.

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[Nessun Dorma]

Who is your builder again? i know I know I just can't recall.

pretty cool, Kim. What's the fancy scrollwork pieces for?

That is how they scarf two pieces together to make parts bigger than the 4x8 sheets.
They call it a finger joint and it makes for a very strong assembly.

Looks cool too.

[kimbottles]

Who is your builder again? i know I know I just can't recall.

Northwest School of Wooden Boatbuilding in Port Hadlock, WA. http://www.nwboatschool.org/

However the CNC work is being done by Brandon Davis at Turn Point Design in Port Townsend, WA. http://www.turnpointdesign.com/

[Paps]

Glad to see it underway Kim, it will give us all something to focus on.

[Beau.Vrolyk]

I was really good at lofting.


I said I WAS REALLY GOOD AT LOFTNG!

God, nobody cares anymore.
I think I'll invent an app for yacht design.

Bob, they may build an app for visualization, for lofting, for navigating, and even for managing your cocktail list at the bar when you're ashore again.

But they will NEVER build an app for the sort of aesthetic taste you have.

Tools like apps are... well, tools. Someone who knows how to use 'em and what to use 'em for still has to hold the handle, whatever sort of handle that turns out to be.

BV

[kimbottles]

I was really good at lofting.


I said I WAS REALLY GOOD AT LOFTNG!

God, nobody cares anymore.
I think I'll invent an app for yacht design.

Bob, they may build an app for visualization, for lofting, for navigating, and even for managing your cocktail list at the bar when you're ashore again.

But they will NEVER build an app for the sort of aesthetic taste you have.

Tools like apps are... well, tools. Someone who knows how to use 'em and what to use 'em for still has to hold the handle, whatever sort of handle that turns out to be.

BV

+1

[Rasputin22]

In response to some of these comments on hand vs machine drafting (CAD), I'd like to mention an interesting case. I had been working for a rather noted Yacht Interior Designer for almost a year as a 3D designer using Rhino3D. Fully modeled yacht furnishings and galley equipment and
spiral staircases with scanned wood and fabric texture maps for 'real-time' rendered display; all fun stuff to be getting paid to do! A co-worker that had previously done the beautiful hand stippling and colored marker work on the interior perspectives was a pretty quick study at Rhino and was becoming more productive with each week. As I had been brought in to transition the office to 3d I was happy with the co-workers progress but the big boss was not making the 'leap of faith' that it takes to go from 2-D to 3-D. I eventually was given the exterior design role and worked primarily from his 2-d AutoCad 'General Arranegments' files. A GA is the profile and deck plans in one drawing that is an essential contract document as it depicts the vessel in a pretty basic 2-d manner. Turning it into 3d is quite a challenge and Rhino3D served well for this sort of reverse engineering since a portion of my work was on what I refer to as 'legacy designs'. A new design concept was offered the office and I had a hunch that the boss would be more comfortable sketching out the early iterations on paper (old school) and since he had just bought the latest HP laptop that you could spin the screen around and fold over and use as a digitizing pad, I suggested he tape a piece of tracing paper over the screen and sketch directly on the paper and let the touchscreen record the vector curves. He produced a very nice pencil sketch that had all of the expression of design intent that is the hallmark of his work, but the file that was generated to the computer was less than useful to my subsequent efforts. I had gone out on a limb by convincing him to go to such lengths, so I quietly retrieved the paper drawing and scanned it and loaded into Rhino3D where is was served very well as the basis for the 3d model. I found that his artistic hand and original intent was more accurately conveyed to me as the CAD operator from his sketches and we were both pleased with the results. It was so much more natural for both of us and enjoyable as well. In the past, if I was working from a AutoCAD 2d file that he had laboriously done, then I had to 'color between the lines' in a very strick manner but his 2d work was not quite spot on. I usually had to re-create the curves with the fairing tools enabled so there was a lot of duplication of effort. But turn that man loose with a 2H pencil and a piece of onionskin paper and he could truly create. The resulting 'fuzziness' of his sketched linework and gestural curves gave me the wiggle room I needed to bring his 2d sketch to life in 3d. So, to each his own, but there is no 'create' key on a computer keyboard as of yet! Sorry about the rant and hi jack, but I think that this was originally Bob's thread and I hope he cuts me some slack here...

Well Sons, call me a codger but I have to disagree with you on the hand drafting issue. Of the people who have come through our office the ones who created the best drawings, easiest to read on the shop floor have been ones who have drawn by hand,even if it was just in a class. Same goes for those who best understand a fair line. There is no computer generated curve or spline which mimics the characteristics of a good wooden spline. I've designed in CAD for 27 years now and can say that what I learned on the boards has helped me be a better CAD designer. I think any designer should spend at least a few months at a drafting board. Counter-rant over.

Oh, I won't say that learning the meaning of curves and art with a pencil isn't useful. It teaches you to put down on paper what you see in your mind, what you need to express. My own point in support of Son was, don't get all mired down in the technical minutiae of creating technical drawings as the final expression of the work.

I mean, I know how to do things the old way in many things but, the new way works just as well. Sometimes we cling too much to the past.

[Jose Carumba]

In response to some of these comments on hand vs machine drafting (CAD), I'd like to mention an interesting case. I had been working for a rather noted Yacht Interior Designer for almost a year as a 3D designer using Rhino3D. Fully modeled yacht furnishings and galley equipment and
spiral staircases with scanned wood and fabric texture maps for 'real-time' rendered display; all fun stuff to be getting paid to do! A co-worker that had previously done the beautiful hand stippling and colored marker work on the interior perspectives was a pretty quick study at Rhino and was becoming more productive with each week. As I had been brought in to transition the office to 3d I was happy with the co-workers progress but the big boss was not making the 'leap of faith' that it takes to go from 2-D to 3-D. I eventually was given the exterior design role and worked primarily from his 2-d AutoCad 'General Arranegments' files. A GA is the profile and deck plans in one drawing that is an essential contract document as it depicts the vessel in a pretty basic 2-d manner. Turning it into 3d is quite a challenge and Rhino3D served well for this sort of reverse engineering since a portion of my work was on what I refer to as 'legacy designs'. A new design concept was offered the office and I had a hunch that the boss would be more comfortable sketching out the early iterations on paper (old school) and since he had just bought the latest HP laptop that you could spin the screen around and fold over and use as a digitizing pad, I suggested he tape a piece of tracing paper over the screen and sketch directly on the paper and let the touchscreen record the vector curves. He produced a very nice pencil sketch that had all of the expression of design intent that is the hallmark of his work, but the file that was generated to the computer was less than useful to my subsequent efforts. I had gone out on a limb by convincing him to go to such lengths, so I quietly retrieved the paper drawing and scanned it and loaded into Rhino3D where is was served very well as the basis for the 3d model. I found that his artistic hand and original intent was more accurately conveyed to me as the CAD operator from his sketches and we were both pleased with the results. It was so much more natural for both of us and enjoyable as well. In the past, if I was working from a AutoCAD 2d file that he had laboriously done, then I had to 'color between the lines' in a very strick manner but his 2d work was not quite spot on. I usually had to re-create the curves with the fairing tools enabled so there was a lot of duplication of effort. But turn that man loose with a 2H pencil and a piece of onionskin paper and he could truly create. The resulting 'fuzziness' of his sketched linework and gestural curves gave me the wiggle room I needed to bring his 2d sketch to life in 3d. So, to each his own, but there is no 'create' key on a computer keyboard as of yet! Sorry about the rant and hi jack, but I think that this was originally Bob's thread and I hope he cuts me some slack here...

Well Sons, call me a codger but I have to disagree with you on the hand drafting issue. Of the people who have come through our office the ones who created the best drawings, easiest to read on the shop floor have been ones who have drawn by hand,even if it was just in a class. Same goes for those who best understand a fair line. There is no computer generated curve or spline which mimics the characteristics of a good wooden spline. I've designed in CAD for 27 years now and can say that what I learned on the boards has helped me be a better CAD designer. I think any designer should spend at least a few months at a drafting board. Counter-rant over.

Oh, I won't say that learning the meaning of curves and art with a pencil isn't useful. It teaches you to put down on paper what you see in your mind, what you need to express. My own point in support of Son was, don't get all mired down in the technical minutiae of creating technical drawings as the final expression of the work.

I mean, I know how to do things the old way in many things but, the new way works just as well. Sometimes we cling too much to the past.

Geeze I ought to proof read my posts better. I should have said:
Of the people who have come through our office the ones who created the best drawings in CAD, easiest to read on the shop floor have been ones who have drawn by hand,even if it was just in a class.

Nice story Raputin. I have experienced similar stuff.

[Jose Carumba]

You are in good hands with that crew Kimb. I like the finger joints (we call them puzzle joints here). Those were used on the PT Skiff, right?

[Boomberries]

pretty cool, Kim. What's the fancy scrollwork pieces for?

That is how they scarf two pieces together to make parts bigger than the 4x8 sheets.
They call it a finger joint and it makes for a very strong assembly.

Looks cool too.

This is going to be a fantastic thread ...(it already rocks) Great to have the photos and explanations of the steps.

[Rasputin22]

You are in good hands with that crew Kimb. I like the finger joints (we call them puzzle joints here). Those were used on the PT Skiff, right?

I used a joint like this that I laid out in Rhino and christened it a "Dogbone" joint. It is very effective and if done with the right clearance can be tapped into alignment with a closed fist in 3/4" plywood and then picked up and waved around in the air on just the dry joined press fit. However if pulled apart fit that tight, it would delaminate the face plys but if slathered with slighty thickened epoxy it just slid together and made a 100% joint when cured. I have since done a lapped version of this joint that hides the serpentine glue joint and is probably even stronger since it has more gluing surface area. I like the look and it beats doing an adequate scarf joint and keeping those aligned. I found the dogbone to eliminate the skewing that would occur between CNC cut keel section if done with a scarf. I had considered fabricating and amd marketing a hand held router jig template that would let a home builder do this sort of joint manually much like the dovetail jig and template like Rockwell sells.

[kimbottles]

Those were used on the PT Skiff, right?

I believe they were.

And wait until you see Russell's new nesting dinghy, I got to have one of those!!

[Beau.Vrolyk]

Those were used on the PT Skiff, right?

I believe they were.

And wait until you see Russell's new nesting dinghy, I got to have one of those!!

OK - I "need" a nesting dink - where do I go!!???

[Paps]

Those were used on the PT Skiff, right?

I believe they were.

And wait until you see Russell's new nesting dinghy, I got to have one of those!!

OK - I "need" a nesting dink - where do I go!!???

YES, this is something that needs to be developed, I had one I loved but it seems this line of design met a semi dead end. Either that or the ones on offer became way too expensive.

[kimbottles]

And wait until you see Russell's new nesting dinghy, I got to have one of those!!

OK - I "need" a nesting dink - where do I go!!???

YES, this is something that needs to be developed, I had one I loved but it seems this line of design met a semi dead end. Either that or the ones on offer became way too expensive.

I have actually seen the prototype of this dinghy (and assembled and disassembled it.)

It is just wonderful as is everything Russell Brown touches. (Read about Russell in the latest Professional Boat Builder magazine.)

http://ptwatercraft....Whats_Next.html

[Trevor B]

Beau,
It's the Bieker-Brown nesting dinghy we talked about before. The lastest one looks very cool.
Trevor

[kimbottles]

Beau,
It's the Bieker-Brown nesting dinghy we talked about before. The lastest one looks very cool.
Trevor

Whenever Paul Bieker, Russell Brown and Brandon Davis get together wonderful things happen. Three very talented guys. (Nice guys too.)

I asked Russell to send me some shot of the dink and the connection system which I will post here when I get them.

[Beau.Vrolyk]

Beau,
It's the Bieker-Brown nesting dinghy we talked about before. The lastest one looks very cool.
Trevor

Trevor, thanks. I must be getting old - the memory is the second thing that fails! This latest one looks really cool!!

BV

[kimbottles]

OK I understand the cedar has been delivered to the School. But I have no pictures yet. So you have to look at the backbone fir instead sitting in the contemporary shop.

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[Jose Carumba]

Cedar Coffee Ring Warning: Do not under any circumstances replace the melted lower ring of your cheap mellita coffee filter with one made from Port Orford cedar off cuts (unless you like French roast with resinous cedar accents). I learned this while building the Perry 38 research vessel in school. All that beautiful stickered wood and the mention of cedar reminded me of that for some reason.

[Paps]

Beau,
It's the Bieker-Brown nesting dinghy we talked about before. The lastest one looks very cool.
Trevor

Whenever Paul Bieker, Russell Brown and Brandon Davis get together wonderful things happen. Three very talented guys. (Nice guys too.)

I asked Russell to send me some shot of the dink and the connection system which I will post here when I get them.

That looks like a beauty, I like.

[Bob Perry]

I bet the sheer could use some work.
No more Mr. Nice Guy.

[PNW Matt B]

Cedar Coffee Ring Warning: Do not under any circumstances replace the melted lower ring of your cheap mellita coffee filter with one made from Port Orford cedar off cuts (unless you like French roast with resinous cedar accents). I learned this while building the Perry 38 research vessel in school. All that beautiful stickered wood and the mention of cedar reminded me of that for some reason.

That should be a sticker.

[Paps]

I bet the sheer could use some work.
No more Mr. Nice Guy.

And the mating shapes Bob, Im sure. Good to have you approaching, back.

[Greever]

I bet the sheer could use some work.
No more Mr. Nice Guy.

Well considering they are cutting stock on a cnc machine, you had better hurry up if you want to tweak the sheer!

[Beau.Vrolyk]

I bet the sheer could use some work.
No more Mr. Nice Guy.

Help make her beautiful, Bob. I want one but would love her to be a bit prettier.

BV

[Jon]

Beau,
It's the Bieker-Brown nesting dinghy we talked about before. The lastest one looks very cool.
Trevor

Trevor, thanks. I must be getting old - the memory is the second thing that fails! This latest one looks really cool!!

BV

 Wester-2011 Shipswrights 188.jpg   51.7K   76 downloads

[Beau.Vrolyk]

Beau,
It's the Bieker-Brown nesting dinghy we talked about before. The lastest one looks very cool.
Trevor

Trevor, thanks. I must be getting old - the memory is the second thing that fails! This latest one looks really cool!!

BV

 Wester-2011 Shipswrights 188.jpg   51.7K   76 downloads

Jon,

So, she's got a double bottom in the forward half? Also, is the rig from some existing boat? Or is it a one-off?

Looks awfully nice!

Beau

[Jon]

Beau,
It's the Bieker-Brown nesting dinghy we talked about before. The lastest one looks very cool.
Trevor

Trevor, thanks. I must be getting old - the memory is the second thing that fails! This latest one looks really cool!!

BV

 Wester-2011 Shipswrights 188.jpg   51.7K   76 downloads

Jon,

So, she's got a double bottom in the forward half? Also, is the rig from some existing boat? Or is it a one-off?

Looks awfully nice!

Beau

Sorry, I don't know much about the boat, just have a couple of pictures by Craig Wester who was on the RC boat. I can tell you that in a really really light air race, the little boat moves well.

 2011 Shipswrights 185.jpg   44.75K   37 downloads

[Hike, Bitches!]

That thing looks great!

[kimbottles]

Visited the School today (as I will do most Mondays until launch.)

So here is a 62 foot Bob Perry designed daysailor in incomplete kit form. Just the hull material and the deck mold pieces ready to go.

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[kimbottles]

Here are Amos (left) and Fred (right). They are the guys who will keep the program moving forward as the students come and go on the project. (I believe they are both past graduates of the School. I better check and see if that is true, in any event thay are both very skilled.)
In this picture they are planning the strongback for the deck mold. Second picture is the scarfing tool Fred made up for the fir (third picture) that will end up as the vessel's backbone.

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[kimbottles]

Here is a rendering of the deck mold. This is Jim Franken's work. (Jim is a very experienced boatbuilder and designer which really helps as he produces CAD files for Brandon's CNC machine.)
Last picture is the saildrive rendering, more of Jim's excellent work.

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•  DM1.jpg   297.19K   84 downloads
•  YANMAR SAILDRIVE MOUNT IN POSITION.jpg   534.9K   75 downloads

[Joli]

Neat jig. Your cutting the taper with a router? Not the table saw even though it's sitting on the saw?

Here are Amos (left) and Fred (right). They are the guys who will keep the program moving forward as the students come and go on the project. (I believe they are both past graduates of the School. I better check and see if that is true, in any event thay are both very skilled.)
In this picture they are planning the strongback for the deck mold. Second picture is the scarfing tool Fred made up for the fir (third picture) that will end up as the vessel's backbone.

[kimbottles]

Neat jig. Your cutting the taper with a router? Not the table saw even though it's sitting on the saw?

Here are Amos (left) and Fred (right). They are the guys who will keep the program moving forward as the students come and go on the project. (I believe they are both past graduates of the School. I better check and see if that is true, in any event thay are both very skilled.)
In this picture they are planning the strongback for the deck mold. Second picture is the scarfing tool Fred made up for the fir (third picture) that will end up as the vessel's backbone.

Yes, Fred built that "jig" to use with a router.

(I don't think they are going to let me cut anything. I just take pictures and get in the way.)

[Paps]

Looking good Kimbo, you must be very excited!

[kimbottles]

Looking good Kimbo, you must be very excited!

more like scared............BTW, we might very well be in Adelaide later this year. We had better get this SA/CA id thing worked out so I will know it is you.....

[Ishmael]

Looking good Kimbo, you must be very excited!

more like scared............BTW, we might very well be in Adelaide later this year. We had better get this SA/CA id thing worked out so I will know it is you.....

Send him one of your old kilts.

[kimbottles]

Looking good Kimbo, you must be very excited!

more like scared............BTW, we might very well be in Adelaide later this year. We had better get this SA/CA id thing worked out so I will know it is you.....

Send him one of your old kilts.

excellent idea

[Paps]

Looking good Kimbo, you must be very excited!

more like scared............BTW, we might very well be in Adelaide later this year. We had better get this SA/CA id thing worked out so I will know it is you.....

Send him one of your old kilts.

excellent idea

Excellent, do let me know so we can offer some hospitality. Is it business or pleasure?

[kimbottles]

Looking good Kimbo, you must be very excited!

more like scared............BTW, we might very well be in Adelaide later this year. We had better get this SA/CA id thing worked out so I will know it is you.....

Send him one of your old kilts.

excellent idea

Excellent, do let me know so we can offer some hospitality. Is it business or pleasure?

Just for fun. Never seen the land of Oz before.

[Boomberries]

Yesterday was an exceptionally busy day at work. I took a quick mental break in the afternoon, and thoughts of sailing came to mind (it's been three looong weeks since I had my last fix)
I thought of this beauty and what a head turner she will be, when she is slipping through the San Juan and Gulf Islands. Lots of folks get all sorts of systems and "stuff" on their boats that they don't really understand, and some they will never use. Ths apparent simplicity, sleekness and insight into what makes for a good day of sailing, is what adds to her sexiness.

It was a wonderful day dream.
I look forward to the PTWBF

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•  Sliver.jpg   6.37K   74 downloads

[Nessun Dorma]

+1

Yesterday was an exceptionally busy day at work. I took a quick mental break in the afternoon, and thoughts of sailing came to mind (it's been three looong weeks since I had my last fix)
I thought of this beauty and what a head turner she will be, when she is slipping through the San Juan and Gulf Islands. Lots of folks get all sorts of systems and "stuff" on their boats that they don't really understand, and some they will never use. Ths apparent simplicity, sleekness and insight into what makes for a good day of sailing, is what adds to her sexiness.

It was a wonderful day dream.
I look forward to the PTWBF

[Amati]

Yesterday was an exceptionally busy day at work. I took a quick mental break in the afternoon, and thoughts of sailing came to mind (it's been three looong weeks since I had my last fix)
I thought of this beauty and what a head turner she will be, when she is slipping through the San Juan and Gulf Islands. Lots of folks get all sorts of systems and "stuff" on their boats that they don't really understand, and some they will never use. Ths apparent simplicity, sleekness and insight into what makes for a good day of sailing, is what adds to her sexiness.

It was a wonderful day dream.
I look forward to the PTWBF

'Tis a beautiful vision, and one close to my heart. And surely she will not endure the taunt (as did Amati every time we displayed her) from 90% of the PTWBF attendees that "she isn't a wooden boat.". But while in boats, purity is not obscurity, most will, alas, only wonder why there's no room for a microwave or shower.

Have fun having her built- She looks to be a magical thing.

Paul

[Amati]

Splinter!





High performance is inherent in the name!

[nroose]

Nice boat.

[Tom Ray]

Splinter!





High performance is inherent in the name!

I think you're looking for the built of wood thread...

Cool car, but it does make me wonder who might buy it.

[Innocent Bystander]

Splinter!





High performance is inherent in the name!

I think you're looking for the built of wood thread...

Cool car, but it does make me wonder who might buy it.

Do people who wear Birkenstocks like big V-8's?

Use renewable wood to build the car and old compressed dinosaurs to run it. Hmmm?

[kimbottles]

Strong Backs (one for the hull and one for the deck) under construction. They will both be ladder like structures. The pile of items in the third picture are the cross cleats already built and waiting to go into the "ladders".
Also a picture of the planer the School recently acquired. I suspect it will be busy with the strips. (I failed to get a picture of the two joiners/shapers that will add the bead and cove to the strips.)
Lastly are some of the work benches that are getting set up in the new shop. (It sure is nice to have all of this room for the build. The old contemporary shop would have been a very tight squeeze for the Sliver. )

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[Amati]

planer.