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Modifying a hobie wave for spinnaker


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#1 zerothehero

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Posted 25 March 2011 - 03:43 PM

I am considering entering the everglades challenge in 2013 in a modified Hobie wave. I plan on adding an A-sail for better off the wind performance. Hobie sells a kit for this purpose. Kit is about $300-350 and sail is about the same. Looking around the garage I spied a few pieces of hardware that I already have that might fit the bill. I have several carbon sailboard masts as well as one fiberglass one and a carbon mast from an escape sailboat. I also have a Laser gooseneck fitting. I was wondering if it would be advisable to rivet the gooseneck fitting to the forward beam. One of the mast sections has already been converted to a boom and has the fitting in it to receive the goose neck so it could become the pole. Would drilling and riveting to the beam this weaken it too much? I figure I could do it with three rivets, not six that there are holes for. The beams on the wave are fairly robust for the size of the boat but any hole id going to introduce weakness and possibly fatigue. Your thoughts?

#2 samc99us

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Posted 25 March 2011 - 03:53 PM

My thoughts: less holes the better, but there are reasons for having 6 rivets on the gooseneck. The carbon sailboard masts could probably be used as a spinnaker pole but may not be the proper length and would obviously need rigging. You also need the proper sheet blocks, which are likely 1/2 the cost of the kit.

Honestly, you would be much better off buying the Hobie kit, especially if this is your first asymm. Its at least had some engineering thought behind it, and warrantied by the factory for use on your boat, two points I'd consider highly if taking the boat offshore. Another option may be the Rick White Hooter kit, pretty pricing as roller furling hardware isn't cheap, but it looks far easier to handle solo and you can carry it upwind in lighter air for good boat speed: https://store.catsai...&idcategory=267

-Sam

#3 Vernon Green

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Posted 25 March 2011 - 04:02 PM

I did this to my Nacra 5.2, it worked really well and mounted my pole just like you plan to. A few rivet holes are not gonna be a big deal. I would suggest using all 6 but I am no engineer or anything. But my Nacra 5.2 which tend to have beam problems anyways never had a problem.

It is really pretty easy once you get it rigged. just remember to have the pole well supported and if possible pull some serious prebend into it. This will make it much stiffer and keep it from bending sideways. Look at some of the modern cats, they will have 5-6 inchs of prebend in their poles. An easy way to accomplish this is the have the pole run under the bridle fitting and have a loop of low stretch line hanging down there at the corrent height. Then tension the lines running to the end of the pole. They should pull downward and back. This will automatically pull on some prebend. I would suggest a second set of supporting line 3-4 feet back from the end of the pole also.

Do you plan to attach to the comp tip? That would be my biggest concern.

#4 zerothehero

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Posted 25 March 2011 - 04:40 PM

Thanks for the input. I may just go with the kit but am exploring all options. I have time. Hell I can't even get the boat out of the barn yet. I haven't worked out all the bits yet but was first and foremost concerned with the beam. If I blow up a pole that is a lot less of a big deal than if I break a beam. Also given the nature of the race this would not be a sail I would be carrying in the heavy stuff. I would be backing away from the edge long before I got there. A good average speed is what counts, not the max speed reached. I haven't been able to get much info on the kit from Hobie, and only one really poor pic is out there. I'll keep looking. What I am planning is a slow ramp up to the event. This summer I will need to some testing of just how to store the gear and how the boat handles with everything aboard. I am also considering the back rest option. Not great for hiking but having something to rest on will make 300 miles a lot more comfortable. Plus if I add on a cross piece at the back I can rest the mast there when I have to drop it to get under bridges. Already have a plan for oar locks and have the oars. There is a lot to plan and do, that's why 2 years out, summers are so short here I'll never get it done in one. This year there were 2 hobie 18's that did the race and a Weta, but he broke his mast in a squall. I figure the Weta is most like the Hobie, but obviously faster.

#5 Rhino 15

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Posted 25 March 2011 - 04:52 PM

I've also put together a spin system for a non spin boat (Nacra 5.8). The kite is a little larger than an F18 kite, and the boat has been raced hard with the kite for four years.

For the pole I used an aluminum tube - 1.5" OD, 0.08" wall T6061-T6. The most expensive part is shipping, if you can pick it up at a local machine shop or metal supply store you'll save a bundle. If you have a nice chunk of carbon kicking around, fine, but otherwise aluminum works great. I would guess an old windsurfer mast would be thicker and heavier than what you need.

My pole butts against the top of the dolphin striker king post (not sure if a Wave has a dolphin striker), and is held in place with a clamp. The loads on the pole should be mostly compression, if you have other loads on the pole sufficient to warrant 6 rivets at the butt, you've got big problems.

The main purpose of pre-bend is to get the geometry right (i.e. keep the tip low). Again a cat spin pole should be taking mostly compressive forces, not bending.

#6 Surf City Racing

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Posted 25 March 2011 - 04:54 PM

Use the Hobie 18 gooseneck yoke to attach the pole to the boat, as said, and use a H16 tiller yoke to attach the pole. Bend the gooseneck so that it's the same contour as the fwd crossbar. You are going to need a bow spreader pole that attaches to the bridle attachment up on the bows. The upward force of the spin will pull in the bows dramarically. I've got some new old stock poles and hardware for cheap if anyone needs. I misordered them in 2005. If you need bits, give me a ring.

Here's a spin rig for an 18 that we build, some of the hardware is the same.



#7 MisterMoon

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Posted 25 March 2011 - 04:54 PM

Couple of thoughts:

* Do not underestimate the need for comfort. Plan on spending over 75% of your time over a three to six day period sailing. You've got to have a boat that will not add to your fatigue. Get the backrest worked out and don't forget your bottom!

* I'm not sure adding a spin is worth the trouble for the percentage of the time you'll get to use it. It's really only going to be useful for DDW in light airs which isn't really that often. During my challenge this year I spent roughly 40 hours sailing to the halfway point before I had to retire. I probably could have used a spin for at most 4-5 hours of that time. And had I stayed in for the rest of the race this year, there would have not been another chance to use beyond those few hours in Pine Island Sound. I wouldn't worry about it if I were you.

See you on the beach in 2013!

#8 Surf City Racing

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Posted 25 March 2011 - 05:00 PM

The main purpose of pre-bend is to get the geometry right (i.e. keep the tip low). Again a cat spin pole should be taking mostly compressive forces, not bending.


That's not 100% accurate, but whatever.

Due to the fact that the wave is so small, the loads are light and the spin pole is so short, I would use a piece of 2" OD tube and forgo the prebend. Due to the bridle set up, there's not an easy way to brebend a pole on a wave without adding too much mast compression. Remember, the wave is tiny and the fwd crossbar is far forward. The pole is only going to be, like 5 feet long.

#9 MisterMoon

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Posted 25 March 2011 - 05:05 PM

Regarding the Weta in the squall, it was apparently a pretty bad situation. The winds were estimated in excess of 50 knots and it came on very quickly. It's not clear if he pitchpoled or just blew over, but it all happened in chest deep water. He could not get the masthead out of the mud, so he pulled the rigging pins with some difficulty to free the boat from the rig. He swam the boat to the beach and phoned for help. He said he thinks the mast was broken when they used a powerboat to yank it out of the mud later that afternoon.

#10 Surf City Racing

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Posted 25 March 2011 - 05:08 PM

* I'm not sure adding a spin is worth the trouble for the percentage of the time you'll get to use it. It's really only going to be useful for DDW in light airs which isn't really that often.


Not 100% accurate.

Cut the spin a little flat, like the stock one, and the Wave becomes a reaching machine. Cats don't sail DDW well. Reach off, haul ass!

#11 Fat Point Jack

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Posted 25 March 2011 - 05:09 PM

Check this out.

https://store.catsai...&idcategory=267

Rick White set this up several years ago.

#12 Rhino 15

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Posted 25 March 2011 - 05:12 PM


The main purpose of pre-bend is to get the geometry right (i.e. keep the tip low). Again a cat spin pole should be taking mostly compressive forces, not bending.


That's not 100% accurate, but whatever.

Due to the fact that the wave is so small, the loads are light and the spin pole is so short, I would use a piece of 2" OD tube and forgo the prebend. Due to the bridle set up, there's not an easy way to brebend a pole on a wave without adding too much mast compression. Remember, the wave is tiny and the fwd crossbar is far forward. The pole is only going to be, like 5 feet long.


How does pre-bend increase mast compression? It's awkward, but you can pre-bend the pole without the mast raised.

#13 Surf City Racing

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Posted 25 March 2011 - 05:15 PM

Check this out.

https://store.catsai...&idcategory=267

Rick White set this up several years ago.


Then your dragging all of that windage and weight around on your upwind legs. Since you can get to the entire tramp on the Wave while driving, just put a turtle up on deck and bag launch old-school. Less expensive set up too, fewer things to go wrong.

#14 Surf City Racing

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Posted 25 March 2011 - 05:22 PM

How does pre-bend increase mast compression? It's awkward, but you can pre-bend the pole without the mast raised.


Have you ever seen a Wave? It has long split bridles to lessen the inward force on the bows. Since the bows are so close to the fwd Xbar, the prebent pole pulls down on the rig. Since the wave likes to be a little loose, the added compression makes the mast not rotate. Imagine prebending the pole on your 5.8 if you loosened the shrouds 2 holes each.

How are you proposing to prebend the pole without the mast raised, and why?

#15 zerothehero

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Posted 25 March 2011 - 05:27 PM

mqnada, did you get that Core Sound 17 yet? I read a few of the tribe members blogs last night. Becoming very aware of the wet ass problem. Also the fatigue factor. Have read some great ideas at Hobie forums and elsewhere about things like using a yoga mat for more cushioning and various seats. Was the headwinds of this race typical? I guess I would have figured a norwesterly would be more typical. As per the wave and spin set up. I agree with Surf City here, the pole is going to be short, the loads not terribly high. The mast is a tree trunk on the wave, I doubt there is any bend at all. Especially since the shrouds are pretty loose and the rig rotates. In fact if I am correct the mast and the beams are the same. I also have other reasons for inquiring about drilling into the beam. One thought is to put the nav equipment onto some sort of mount on the forward beam. But again all very prelim at this point. I plan on digging in a bit more this summer. I am very hesitant to drill and would much rather find other ways to go about it. But my original question is answered, yes you can do it yourself, might be better to get the kit. Much more to research. Thanks.

#16 zerothehero

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Posted 25 March 2011 - 05:29 PM

Regarding the Weta in the squall, it was apparently a pretty bad situation. The winds were estimated in excess of 50 knots and it came on very quickly. It's not clear if he pitchpoled or just blew over, but it all happened in chest deep water. He could not get the masthead out of the mud, so he pulled the rigging pins with some difficulty to free the boat from the rig. He swam the boat to the beach and phoned for help. He said he thinks the mast was broken when they used a powerboat to yank it out of the mud later that afternoon.

I read about it. That squall took more than a few people by surprise. Just bad luck for the Weta.

#17 Rhino 15

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Posted 25 March 2011 - 05:34 PM


How does pre-bend increase mast compression? It's awkward, but you can pre-bend the pole without the mast raised.


Have you ever seen a Wave? It has long split bridles to lessen the inward force on the bows. Since the bows are so close to the fwd Xbar, the prebent pole pulls down on the rig. Since the wave likes to be a little loose, the added compression makes the mast not rotate. Imagine prebending the pole on your 5.8 if you loosened the shrouds 2 holes each.

How are you proposing to prebend the pole without the mast raised, and why?


Rigging it without the mast up was a thought experiment. Won't work, you're right, I had a brain-fart.

#18 MisterMoon

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Posted 25 March 2011 - 06:08 PM

Picking up the Core Sound on Sunday. Going to be a long day, about 13-14 hours of driving...

I used to think what you think about prevailing winds, mostly from the NW. But talking to a lot EC veterans over the last couple of years has persuaded me otherwise. It all really depends on the timing and strength of fronts coming through. A strong front is usually followed by a period strong northerly winds which get lighter as they clock around to the southeast. I was told to plan on needing to sail well on every point of sail in winds ranging from 2 to 30+ knots during a 'typical' challenge, including significant upwind work. This year was characterized by more than normal amount of strong winds from what was usually the wrong direction, but every successful challenger I've talked to says they always have a period where they have to beat into difficult condtions every year.

Put your nav gear somewhere it's not going to be frequently blasted by water. I don't know how much water a Wave takes over the front beam though.

I do think the Wave would be an OK boat for the EC as long as you keep the weight down and you have a good way to quickly put in and shake out reefs. Speaking of reefs, you will need two at least. While the rules say you have to be able to reef down to only 60% of your normal upwind sailplan, that's not enough. You need to be able to get down to less than 40% and still be able to sail the boat, IMO.

Another item I found really useful is good ground tackle. My 8# danforth with 10' of chain seemed like overkill before the start compared the little 5#er I left at home. I was glad to have the bigger hook when I had to anchor in 2 knot tidal current in 20 knots at 1:30 in the morning. Figure out where you are going to stow your hook.

The Tornado and Randy Smyth's boat both fly spins. The difference between them and a Wave is they can use them to great effect over the 10-20 hours the strong NW will usually last, making 20+ knots over ground. How much faster will you be with a spin and would be able to fly singlehanded in strong winds? That's why I say it probably isn't worth it.

#19 zerothehero

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Posted 25 March 2011 - 06:24 PM

Surf City I am with you on this one. First I was thinking a flatter sail. I never sail the Wave dead down, always gybing for speed. Possibly use the sail at a lot higher angles as well. Could help with steering across fl bay where the rudders might have to be up. Second, yes I will douse the chute and stow it, less windage and like you said, keep it simple. I'm not with stupid, I am stupid ;) . Third all I would be looking for is a simple, strong, easy to use set up. The Wave is no powerhouse, it's the opti of cats. But I have one. First piece of equipment checked off. It draws very little, can be rowed and is light enough to haul up the beach. And it's faster than any mono in the size range that could be considered for this race. Average speeds this year that I have seen so far were in the 3-4 mph range. Obviously SewSew and the tornado guys were hauling ass. But I figure as long as there is 5+ mph winds I should be able to keep her going. You have 8 days and I know I wouldn't be one of the leaders so I'd just be trying to make it.

#20 zerothehero

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Posted 25 March 2011 - 06:44 PM

Picking up the Core Sound on Sunday. Going to be a long day, about 13-14 hours of driving...

I used to think what you think about prevailing winds, mostly from the NW. But talking to a lot EC veterans over the last couple of years has persuaded me otherwise. It all really depends on the timing and strength of fronts coming through. A strong front is usually followed by a period strong northerly winds which get lighter as they clock around to the southeast. I was told to plan on needing to sail well on every point of sail in winds ranging from 2 to 30+ knots during a 'typical' challenge, including significant upwind work. This year was characterized by more than normal amount of strong winds from what was usually the wrong direction, but every successful challenger I've talked to says they always have a period where they have to beat into difficult condtions every year.

Put your nav gear somewhere it's not going to be frequently blasted by water. I don't know how much water a Wave takes over the front beam though.

I do think the Wave would be an OK boat for the EC as long as you keep the weight down and you have a good way to quickly put in and shake out reefs. Speaking of reefs, you will need two at least. While the rules say you have to be able to reef down to only 60% of your normal upwind sailplan, that's not enough. You need to be able to get down to less than 40% and still be able to sail the boat, IMO.

Another item I found really useful is good ground tackle. My 8# danforth with 10' of chain seemed like overkill before the start compared the little 5#er I left at home. I was glad to have the bigger hook when I had to anchor in 2 knot tidal current in 20 knots at 1:30 in the morning. Figure out where you are going to stow your hook.

The Tornado and Randy Smyth's boat both fly spins. The difference between them and a Wave is they can use them to great effect over the 10-20 hours the strong NW will usually last, making 20+ knots over ground. How much faster will you be with a spin and would be able to fly singlehanded in strong winds? That's why I say it probably isn't worth it.

All good points. I figure the spin would be stowed during most of the race but when it gets light, that's when it would be needed, if the wind is from the right direction. If it was flat enough it could be flown pretty close to the wind too. Or take 2? <_< Not likely. as it is the Wave only has 1 line to play while sailing, an asym spin wouldn't overly complicate things. I have done it before on the Nomad. As far as upwind goes the Wave is ok, and like I said before it HAS to be better than the Hobie AI and TI's. A lot better. Anchor storage is a puzzler right now. But I'll get there. What I was thinking for the gps and Spot was to build a sort of backrest above the forward beam, or a shelf on the Hobie backrests to keep the electronic as high as possible. I was not surprised Chief's Spot quit. Looking at his vids it was right in front of him, not far off the water. Can the Spot be put in the hull? Where was yours? Or could you put it in a zip lock bag or a pelican case? anything to keep it dry(er). I am looking into the reef thing as well. Hobie sells a sail with zip off panels to reef the main, not sure how robust that is but since there is no boom this might be the only way.
Do you know the guys that were on the Hobie 18's? Or the Weta? I would love to know more about their race and setup. I will email chief soon to ask for more direction and help. I'll take anything I can get. And in the end this may be a fools errand. The Wave just might not be able to do it, than it's back to the drawing board.

#21 MisterMoon

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Posted 25 March 2011 - 07:28 PM

I mounted my SPOT in a tray on top of my tiller. See my blog for photos. There is a link in my sig below. Perfect location I think. I'm going put mine in a waterproof bag next year, just in case. Others have suggested they work well inside small Pelican boxes. Just don't cover them with anything metal or too thick plastic. I would not put it in the hull. It needs to be where you can reach it.

The Tornado guys riveted an aluminum tray to the end of their boom to hold theirs. They also stowed their carbon canoe paddles on the boom. I thought that was pretty good solution getting it out of the way.

Reefing: How about get a sailmaker to sew in some strong zippers along the batten pockets? I'm not sure how practical that would be on a sail the size of the Waves, but I've seen it on smaller sails used on sailing kayaks like the Balough rigs.

#22 Surf City Racing

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Posted 25 March 2011 - 07:33 PM

Reefing: How about get a sailmaker to sew in some strong zippers along the batten pockets? I'm not sure how practical that would be on a sail the size of the Waves, but I've seen it on smaller sails used on sailing kayaks like the Balough rigs.


The zippered main is a factory option on the Wave:

Posted Image

#23 zerothehero

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Posted 25 March 2011 - 07:40 PM

I would need two reefs as per the rules. The zipper must be able to handle the leach loads, yes? Hard sheeting? Surf city I sent you a pm. Liked your vid.

#24 zerothehero

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Posted 25 March 2011 - 08:02 PM

one other reason I feel I can even consider the Wave, I'm small. 5'5" and about 148 lbs. If I can get my ass in shape I'll probably loose out 10-15 of that.

#25 Surf City Racing

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Posted 25 March 2011 - 08:05 PM

I would need two reefs as per the rules. The zipper must be able to handle the leach loads, yes? Hard sheeting? Surf city I sent you a pm. Liked your vid.


Got it. Here's some info for anyone else that's interested.

Here's a pic of the spreader bar that I was talking about. It attaches to the bridle tangs.

Posted Image

Surprisingly, I can't find any pics of the stock spin rig other than this. It's a good modification to add a lot of inexpensive power to the Wave.

Posted Image

The tricky part is the sheet block connections. Hobie sells these stainless brackets that bolt to the tramp lacing strips, which is really the way to go. You may be able to sheet from the shroud adjusters, but again the Wave likes the rig a little loose. The Hobie hardware kit has the pole and all the fittings: Tang, sheet blocks, pole, rivets and everything, for $378. If you priced out every individual part, it's about $100 more. Their spin is $319.

#26 Surf City Racing

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Posted 25 March 2011 - 08:13 PM

Here is a copy from the Hobie catalog with part numbers etc.

Attached Files



#27 zerothehero

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Posted 25 March 2011 - 08:14 PM

I saw that pic. Pretty funny. The channels on the hull are just like a mast track IIRC. wonder if I could get some of those inserts that go into the trach and have a threaded hole to screw into. Definitely won't go to the shroud adjusters, not a good idea. There is a local fabricator that is an old family friend. Was planning on having him make the oarlock attachment plates, might see what he thinks. Plus I may try a few things out with the Nomad spin, just to test.

#28 Surf City Racing

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Posted 25 March 2011 - 08:30 PM

I saw that pic. Pretty funny. The channels on the hull are just like a mast track IIRC. wonder if I could get some of those inserts that go into the trach and have a threaded hole to screw into. Definitely won't go to the shroud adjusters, not a good idea. There is a local fabricator that is an old family friend. Was planning on having him make the oarlock attachment plates, might see what he thinks. Plus I may try a few things out with the Nomad spin, just to test.


There's an alu pate inside the hulll where the tramp track attaches, so it's pretty solid. For oar locks I might opt for through bolting to another plate. Access can be had to the interior of the hull via ports underneath the seats.

#29 zerothehero

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Posted 25 March 2011 - 08:46 PM

there was guy on Hobie Forum who installed them (oarlocks)in some pre-drilled, threaded holes that are made into the hull. I'll find it later and send you the link. He might have reversed the hulls to do it. If he did he got a new sticker kit and fixed that. Could I add another inspection port to the hulls? There is one in each hull aft of the aft beam, anywhere else? Been thinking of long skinny inspection port bags for some gear. But I wouldn't want to make the hulls weaker.

#30 zerothehero

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Posted 25 March 2011 - 11:40 PM

here is a closeup of the oarlock and a pic of it working

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#31 zerothehero

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Posted 25 March 2011 - 11:52 PM

here is one more, showing the velcro pieces used to keep it snuq against the hull. These pics also show the backrests I was thinking of. By adding a cross beam over the tiller I could drop the mast and support it there while I rowed. I would use lashings to affix that as I would still want the boat to flex as it was designed.

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#32 zerothehero

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Posted 27 March 2011 - 01:45 AM

so I found more info on the hooter setup. Looking around the shop I think I have about 90% of what I need. I have the blocks, cleats, wire, maybe the sail, carbon and fiberglass poles, strap eyes and various assorted other bits. I think I have a viable pole base. The one thing I will need is the tang from the mast, can't fudge that. Once the temp goes up (it was 30 here today) I will get at it. With my ultimate goal of the EC in 2013 in mind and a budget I will soon lay it all out and set up a budget and time line.

#33 zerothehero

zerothehero

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Posted 27 March 2011 - 10:42 AM

Just had an idea, might be able to use an old Blue Jay spinnaker poles at the spreader bar. If I get really lucky it will either be a little long or just the right length to clip on. Any thoughts?




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