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Disturbed IOR design?


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#101 SPORTSCAR

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Posted 31 March 2011 - 01:42 AM


Noeleen 3, Originally the late Ken Kings cold moulded Steinman 1 Tonner. The photo below (from the ORCV site just this week!) doesn't show her lines too well but the static waterline ends just slightly aft of the red stripe so the aft overhang is looooong!



Sportscar, you would remember that Noeleen was for sale a few years back (maybe still is?). I was at Sandy for Sail Melbourne and went to check out why such a big boat was so cheap. One walk down the marina was enough and the broker never received an enquiry from me! It truly is a "stand out" boat!


Kenny King tried to sell N3 a number of times before he passed on and left her to his crew in his will. They sailed her for a while and eventually sold her to a new owner in Williamstown. She was/is different!

#102 Gingerbread

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Posted 31 March 2011 - 04:25 AM



Downunder Kell Steinman designed some of the most distorted IOR designs I can remember. If I recall correctly he was based in Melbourne and one the more successful designs was a boat named 'Predator', a half tonner I think. Sportscar might have more info? Anyone have pics?


JLAW ("Jack Loves A Wine") was one of those. IIRC she doubled as a half and a Joggie. My late brother sailed on her when they won the JOG titles IIRC.


JLAW was never a half tonner but was a very succesful JOG boat for a while. Several sisterships were built but none really fired like the original. I lost some good friends in Bass Strait when sistership 'Great Expectations' foundered on her way home from Devonport about 1990. Not the designers fault; she should never have been out there and had been modified from the original lift keel to fixed keel.


I remember JLAW, originally based in Adelaide I think before being renamed B52 or was that another of the same design? Raced against B52 and half tonner 'Shambles' out of Royal Victoria in Gingerbread Man. JOG made for some good racing back then, no doubt better than IOR quater and half tonners!

#103 SPORTSCAR

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Posted 31 March 2011 - 04:59 AM




Downunder Kell Steinman designed some of the most distorted IOR designs I can remember. If I recall correctly he was based in Melbourne and one the more successful designs was a boat named 'Predator', a half tonner I think. Sportscar might have more info? Anyone have pics?


JLAW ("Jack Loves A Wine") was one of those. IIRC she doubled as a half and a Joggie. My late brother sailed on her when they won the JOG titles IIRC.


JLAW was never a half tonner but was a very succesful JOG boat for a while. Several sisterships were built but none really fired like the original. I lost some good friends in Bass Strait when sistership 'Great Expectations' foundered on her way home from Devonport about 1990. Not the designers fault; she should never have been out there and had been modified from the original lift keel to fixed keel.


I remember JLAW, originally based in Adelaide I think before being renamed B52 or was that another of the same design? Raced against B52 and half tonner 'Shambles' out of Royal Victoria in Gingerbread Man. JOG made for some good racing back then, no doubt better than IOR quater and half tonners!


B52 was a sister to Jlaw. Bloody good rule and good racing in JOG way back when... 60+ Joggies at the Nationals made for some great sailing.Some IOR stock boats made a reasonable fist of JOG racing until converted Solings and Etchells, Jlaws and custom Joggies like GM came along.
BTW Shambles from RYCV was a Quarter Tonner, not a half. Sailed(mostly)by the late Jamie Byrne.

#104 dash34

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Posted 31 March 2011 - 05:24 AM

I sailed on B-52 in JOG for a season including the JOG nationals. Incredible boat, a dream downwind in a breeze, and quite good upwind too. Sailed with some great people too, miss them all. Is she still around?

B-52 was not at all an IOR design, Bmax was carried back to the transom almost. She would have rated about 2-ton I think.

dash (nickname was Moose back then)






Downunder Kell Steinman designed some of the most distorted IOR designs I can remember. If I recall correctly he was based in Melbourne and one the more successful designs was a boat named 'Predator', a half tonner I think. Sportscar might have more info? Anyone have pics?


JLAW ("Jack Loves A Wine") was one of those. IIRC she doubled as a half and a Joggie. My late brother sailed on her when they won the JOG titles IIRC.


JLAW was never a half tonner but was a very succesful JOG boat for a while. Several sisterships were built but none really fired like the original. I lost some good friends in Bass Strait when sistership 'Great Expectations' foundered on her way home from Devonport about 1990. Not the designers fault; she should never have been out there and had been modified from the original lift keel to fixed keel.


I remember JLAW, originally based in Adelaide I think before being renamed B52 or was that another of the same design? Raced against B52 and half tonner 'Shambles' out of Royal Victoria in Gingerbread Man. JOG made for some good racing back then, no doubt better than IOR quater and half tonners!


B52 was a sister to Jlaw. Bloody good rule and good racing in JOG way back when... 60+ Joggies at the Nationals made for some great sailing.Some IOR stock boats made a reasonable fist of JOG racing until converted Solings and Etchells, Jlaws and custom Joggies like GM came along.
BTW Shambles from RYCV was a Quarter Tonner, not a half. Sailed(mostly)by the late Jamie Byrne.



#105 minch

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Posted 31 March 2011 - 05:28 AM


Downunder Kell Steinman designed some of the most distorted IOR designs I can remember. If I recall correctly he was based in Melbourne and one the more successful designs was a boat named 'Predator', a half tonner I think. Sportscar might have more info? Anyone have pics?



Kell designed some quite quick downwind flyers which didn't rate and wouldn't go to windward. Flying Colours had some success. When he turned his hand to IOR boats he did produce some amazingly distorted shapes - none worse than Noeleen 3 - a 1 tonner for Ken King which was ugly in the extreme and sailed accordingly. It was later given a short solid stainless steel prodder which only made it look worse. I sailed it once - it was one time too many.


To be fair to Kel, he designed the Zulu tribe in the mid 80's and the half tonners won heaps of races on IOR and the quarter tonners did pretty well too.

Plus, in addition to Flying Colours, the pocket maxis like Amazon, bobsled, hammer and innkeeper all had a good rep in their day.

#106 Icedtea

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Posted 31 March 2011 - 05:36 PM

This is crazy stuff...

#107 Bob Perry

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Posted 31 March 2011 - 05:41 PM

Tea;
It's totally crazy but a lot of fun. Those were the days when you crossed the starting line and everyboat looked different.

#108 chorus1

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Posted 31 March 2011 - 06:02 PM

From my side the most disturbed (But serious) design in Europe was "Paul".
Paul was a one tonner IOR Joubert NIvelt design 80's years ? or before, issued from an extended (by the middle) half tonner, with a cat main sail.
Rudder was 0.5 meter back off stern.
They never succeed to control the huge mainsail, and the boat was fast just only crosswind....
The boat never race out of La Rochelle France West Atlantic as far as i knew, if anyone got photos or historic, ure wellcome :)

#109 SilverSurfer

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Posted 31 March 2011 - 07:22 PM

Disturbed IOR design ?

Sure - but do you think there will be a similar thread about IRC/ORC boats 20 years from now ?

This was the golden age - lots of wild shots, but a lot of diversity - and a lot of emotion.......

#110 wal'

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Posted 31 March 2011 - 07:41 PM



Thanks Moody, to my eye those two French designs are good looking boats, ahead of their time and far less distorted than Paul Whiting's designs here - but all this negative stuff about Riotous Assembly; that boat was not dissimilar to Smackwater Jack, and many thought Smackwater was an excellent looking boat (and also very fast sailed by Murray Ross, Whiting and co). If you want to look at distortion (and very courageous and clever distortion) look at Whiting's Newspaper Taxi. Twisted or not, that boat was a champion, again sailed by Ross and co.


Wow, that brought back some memories.
Remember as a kid when Smackwater sank coming back from Oz with Paul Whiting onboard.
No trace at all of boat or crew.
Straight down the mine.
Sad day in NZ.
Kiwi designs and sailing in general rocked back then...


I was just behind the that era but got to sail with Murray Ross, Graeme Woodroffe, Ross Guiniven and all those guys. If there was ever an era that reinforced what we have now then it was these guys. No problem standing on the centreboard on a 36 footer and getting it up and going hard again


'cept Roscoe, after standing on the rudder during one of these maneuvers, did wonder if it was such a clever idea to have a centreboarder. Sailed on Mr Jumpa as a young pup working for him.

Was 20 miles from Smackwater when she went down - not a nice day

Also Kiwis should remember Winklepicker? 31' 1/4 tonner so narrow and fine in the ends it had to be moored from the stern. Coxcreek may have photos in the archives?

#111 coxcreek

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Posted 31 March 2011 - 09:13 PM

Winklepicker was the perfect name for this boat, designed by Harold Evans, who was a mate of Digby Taylor's and I remember seeing the extreme, stretched, narrow, "Dragon" tied up at full tide at the shed where Digby had Outward Bound built. Winklepicker was about 32 or more feet long, and 4? feet beam and supposedly fitted Quarter Ton. Actually, when you look at the last AC dinosaurs, Harold was on a similar path, just three decades ahead, that is, if you consider the AC boats modern. Sorry, no old photographs.

#112 Icedtea

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Posted 31 March 2011 - 09:35 PM

Now Paul sounds really nuts...... Pics anyone?

#113 SloopJohnB

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Posted 31 March 2011 - 11:29 PM

Winklepicker

From here,

http://crew.org.nz/f...0b0f80b60518eb4

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#114 P_Wop

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Posted 01 April 2011 - 12:31 AM

On a related note, I sailed with a serious madman in Italy in the late 70s called Vasco Donini, who re-configured a variety of day keelboats for IOR offshore races. All of them called Tuscany {Something}. Tuscany Ganza was a Soling which had lifelines and pulpits, and rated half ton. There was even an Etchells 22 conversion that actually rated 3/4 ton, and did some quite long offshores - 300 miles + even.

Barking mad.

EDIT: Actually found a pic dated 4/4/05 of his E22 conversion right here on SA! Posted Image

Loopy enough for ya?

#115 Evo

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Posted 01 April 2011 - 12:35 AM

Winklepicker

From here,

http://crew.org.nz/f...0b0f80b60518eb4


reading the description of this boat above left me wondering.....still couldn't imagine it would be that extreme. great find....i think i put an eye out just looking at it. wow. aptly named

#116 SloopJohnB

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Posted 01 April 2011 - 03:31 AM

There was a ketch rig 1/2 tonner Shenandoah if the grey cells are working, I sail on her during the 1972 1/2 ton cup in Sydney

#117 moody frog

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Posted 01 April 2011 - 08:50 AM

From my side the most disturbed (But serious) design in Europe was "Paul".
Paul was a one tonner IOR Joubert NIvelt design 80's years ? or before, issued from an extended (by the middle) half tonner, with a cat main sail.
Rudder was 0.5 meter back off stern.
They never succeed to control the huge mainsail, and the boat was fast just only crosswind....
The boat never race out of La Rochelle France West Atlantic as far as i knew, if anyone got photos or historic, ure wellcome :)


Aaah "Paul" !

The whole La Rochelle spirit of the "freak" years !

Michel Joubert, just recently joined by Bernard Nivelt at the time, had evolved in 4-5 years from a talented hippie designer to a serious design office thanks to the hundreds of boats built to his design by the fledgling french boatbuilding giants.
Part of that money was going into designing and building one-offs.

The "Paul" adventure was '76 , Joubert had gallantly lent us his '75 1/4 ton "Ombre" (complete with new sails !!!) for La Rochelle Week, then the N°1 french event and I lived a bit of "Paul" short history.

It all started from a one tonner they built in '74 called "Subversion" (pun was intended as in all Joubert's boat names and this one was meant as going further than "Revolution", the most advanced french design of '73). Flush-deck, low freeboard, short and light for a one-ton, I always felt her as pushing in the same direction as Peterson - she was designed just after Ganbare's "boom" in Sardinia.
"Subversion" had mixed results in the '74 OTC and did the whole RORC season under Joubert's brother and his wife (the founders of Tofinou classics) If she taught something that year it certainly was that offshore-racing would now be wet and uncomfortable !!! she quickly gained the nickname "Submarine".

By '76 "Subversion" was lying idle in the yard where Patrick Phelippon was building his winning Cat-Boat Mini-tonner "L'Effraie", just what Joubert needed to cut Subversion in 2, lengthen it by the middle and rig it as a cat-boat, add a some typical "Joubert" spice - like tracing down Gibson guitars sequined gel-coats ! and "Paul" was born.

Fun they had got and the boat was never fully trimmed nor seriously raced.
IIRC she ended up refitted and rerigged as a world girdling cruiser for some crazy frenchman.

Can't find any pic of Paul or Subversion right now, but here is one of "L'Effraie" a 1/4 ton size mini ton with a 33sqm main (upwind area for a mini-ton was closer to 23-25 sqm)

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#118 moody frog

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Posted 01 April 2011 - 03:36 PM

Edit on the above post:

Memory is failing for old-timers , IOR was too far away;

I am now sure that the original one-tonner cut into Paul name was not "Subversion", S was the name of the Joubert yacht of the year before, a pure ULDB, cannot remember the name of that one-ton though !!

#119 SPORTSCAR

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Posted 01 April 2011 - 09:38 PM


There was an Alan Payne design called JANZOON that looked like a python that had just swallowed a pig. You'd have to do some heavy research to come up with pics of that boat. I remember as a very youing man looking at this boat and thinking "This can't be right."

The Gurney designed Islander 41 was a bit of a weird looking boat and slow too.

Ray Richards designed a couple of alu IOR boats with chines up at the B station. He relicated the shape in a quarter tonner that sat accross from office for years. They were quite spectacular looking boats but all dogs.
As I recall one was called SQUAIP and the other RUNIING DOG. We called it RUNNING SORE. I could beat them in a Valiant 40.


Janzoon had a sister ship here in Melbourne, at Royal Brighton YC. From (distant) memory she was called Rage; probably after the owners demeanour when he first saw it come out of the molds.I do have a photo of her in an old book somewhere and she would have to have been just about the ugliest yacht ever built under any rating rule. Fine bow, extremely fat middle and fine tapered stern with a narrow extended transom. Slower than the second coming iirc :P


Time induced brainfade here. Completely forgot there were two of those Alan Payne designs at Royal Brighton. The other was of course Monsoon, the green machine. The dark coloured hull only served to accentuate the distortions of the unusual hull shape.
Thinking back of quarter tonners too - anyone got photos of the early Brit Quarters Oddjob and Warbird. Now THEY were different!

#120 coxcreek

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Posted 01 April 2011 - 10:21 PM

Here's Oddjob, Stephen Jones and Jack Knights design. Today, you wouldn't call this design a freak, looks very normal and even conservative.

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#121 Nomenclature

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Posted 01 April 2011 - 10:43 PM

Aaah "Paul" !


"Joubert" spice - like tracing down Gibson guitars sequined gel-coats ! and "Paul" was born.


So Paul was named for Les Paul?

#122 moody frog

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Posted 02 April 2011 - 08:12 AM



Aaah "Paul" !


"Joubert" spice - like tracing down Gibson guitars sequined gel-coats ! and "Paul" was born.


So Paul was named for Les Paul?


Honestly don't know (but could be), I missed the original cause at that series of La Rochelle puns, after "Paul", Joubert's '77 1/4 ton was named "Paulette" with Jean Berret's 1/4 ton being of course called "Le berret de Paulette" (Paulette's beret). 2nd in the 1/4 ton worlds that year Le Beret was IIRC stolen in Scandivia, boat trailer & all.

#123 umpire

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Posted 02 April 2011 - 09:35 AM

When Joyce Brothers were building Marionette (pic earlier this thread) for Chris Dunning in 1977, they looked at the drawings around the aft inner girth stations and told Mr Holland: "We simply can't bend aluminium into that sort of shape." But they did.

And the rest, as they say, is history. Part of the winning UK team in AC 77, then sold to Piet Vroon and became the first Formidable. Truly good boat, so it was used as the base design for the second Ron Holland Swan, the 441. The first Holland Swan was of course the 39, based on Imp. Also a pretty good boat. ;-)
[/quote]


I sailed on 2 of these including the fastnet 79, good solid safe boats.

#124 P_Wop

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Posted 02 April 2011 - 04:21 PM

When Joyce Brothers were building Marionette (pic earlier this thread) for Chris Dunning in 1977, they looked at the drawings around the aft inner girth stations and told Mr Holland: "We simply can't bend aluminium into that sort of shape." But they did.

And the rest, as they say, is history. Part of the winning UK team in AC 77, then sold to Piet Vroon and became the first Formidable. Truly good boat, so it was used as the base design for the second Ron Holland Swan, the 441. The first Holland Swan was of course the 39, based on Imp. Also a pretty good boat. ;-)



I sailed on 2 of these including the fastnet 79, good solid safe boats.


<history lesson>

The Swan 39 was a fine boat. I sailed on the prototype one in Italy in 78, Black Swan, hull number 000. Even had the full welded tubular alloy spaceframe in it, like Imp, then a Swan hull wrapped round it. Indestructible.

Nautor hated building this thing - it was a serious nightmare for a series production boatbuilder. It was Ingmar Granholm at Nautor who called the boat "a damn fördömd black Swan." The owner quite liked the name, and apparently was unaware of the irony, so Black Swan she remained.

The Maestro Herbert von Karajan came to visit one day, and was so impressed that he ordered one just like it, pipes and all. I have no idea what pressure he brought to bear on Ingmar (probably a lot of money, or vodka), but they did another one with the spaceframe, which became Helisara.

Just those two. All the rest of the Swan 39 series were regular construction.

</history lesson>

#125 chorus1

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Posted 05 April 2011 - 01:22 PM


From my side the most disturbed (But serious) design in Europe was "Paul".
Paul was a one tonner IOR Joubert NIvelt design 80's years ? or before, issued from an extended (by the middle) half tonner, with a cat main sail.
Rudder was 0.5 meter back off stern.
They never succeed to control the huge mainsail, and the boat was fast just only crosswind....
The boat never race out of La Rochelle France West Atlantic as far as i knew, if anyone got photos or historic, ure wellcome :)


Aaah "Paul" !

The whole La Rochelle spirit of the "freak" years !

Michel Joubert, just recently joined by Bernard Nivelt at the time, had evolved in 4-5 years from a talented hippie designer to a serious design office thanks to the hundreds of boats built to his design by the fledgling french boatbuilding giants.
Part of that money was going into designing and building one-offs.

The "Paul" adventure was '76 , Joubert had gallantly lent us his '75 1/4 ton "Ombre" (complete with new sails !!!) for La Rochelle Week, then the N°1 french event and I lived a bit of "Paul" short history.

It all started from a one tonner they built in '74 called "Subversion" (pun was intended as in all Joubert's boat names and this one was meant as going further than "Revolution", the most advanced french design of '73). Flush-deck, low freeboard, short and light for a one-ton, I always felt her as pushing in the same direction as Peterson - she was designed just after Ganbare's "boom" in Sardinia.
"Subversion" had mixed results in the '74 OTC and did the whole RORC season under Joubert's brother and his wife (the founders of Tofinou classics) If she taught something that year it certainly was that offshore-racing would now be wet and uncomfortable !!! she quickly gained the nickname "Submarine".

By '76 "Subversion" was lying idle in the yard where Patrick Phelippon was building his winning Cat-Boat Mini-tonner "L'Effraie", just what Joubert needed to cut Subversion in 2, lengthen it by the middle and rig it as a cat-boat, add a some typical "Joubert" spice - like tracing down Gibson guitars sequined gel-coats ! and "Paul" was born.

Fun they had got and the boat was never fully trimmed nor seriously raced.
IIRC she ended up refitted and rerigged as a world girdling cruiser for some crazy frenchman.

Can't find any pic of Paul or Subversion right now, but here is one of "L'Effraie" a 1/4 ton size mini ton with a 33sqm main (upwind area for a mini-ton was closer to 23-25 sqm)


Thanks a lot Moody Frog feeling so young with your comments :)
I published yours comments on my site : http://www.demi-coqu...onner&Itemid=58

Photos wellcome, even of Subversion...




#126 moody frog

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Posted 05 April 2011 - 01:27 PM



From my side the most disturbed (But serious) design in Europe was "Paul".
Paul was a one tonner IOR Joubert NIvelt design 80's years ? or before, issued from an extended (by the middle) half tonner, with a cat main sail.
Rudder was 0.5 meter back off stern.
They never succeed to control the huge mainsail, and the boat was fast just only crosswind....
The boat never race out of La Rochelle France West Atlantic as far as i knew, if anyone got photos or historic, ure wellcome :)


Aaah "Paul" !

The whole La Rochelle spirit of the "freak" years !

Michel Joubert, just recently joined by Bernard Nivelt at the time, had evolved in 4-5 years from a talented hippie designer to a serious design office thanks to the hundreds of boats built to his design by the fledgling french boatbuilding giants.
Part of that money was going into designing and building one-offs.

The "Paul" adventure was '76 , Joubert had gallantly lent us his '75 1/4 ton "Ombre" (complete with new sails !!!) for La Rochelle Week, then the N°1 french event and I lived a bit of "Paul" short history.

It all started from a one tonner they built in '74 called "Subversion" (pun was intended as in all Joubert's boat names and this one was meant as going further than "Revolution", the most advanced french design of '73). Flush-deck, low freeboard, short and light for a one-ton, I always felt her as pushing in the same direction as Peterson - she was designed just after Ganbare's "boom" in Sardinia.
"Subversion" had mixed results in the '74 OTC and did the whole RORC season under Joubert's brother and his wife (the founders of Tofinou classics) If she taught something that year it certainly was that offshore-racing would now be wet and uncomfortable !!! she quickly gained the nickname "Submarine".

By '76 "Subversion" was lying idle in the yard where Patrick Phelippon was building his winning Cat-Boat Mini-tonner "L'Effraie", just what Joubert needed to cut Subversion in 2, lengthen it by the middle and rig it as a cat-boat, add a some typical "Joubert" spice - like tracing down Gibson guitars sequined gel-coats ! and "Paul" was born.

Fun they had got and the boat was never fully trimmed nor seriously raced.
IIRC she ended up refitted and rerigged as a world girdling cruiser for some crazy frenchman.

Can't find any pic of Paul or Subversion right now, but here is one of "L'Effraie" a 1/4 ton size mini ton with a 33sqm main (upwind area for a mini-ton was closer to 23-25 sqm)


Thanks a lot Moody Frog feeling so young with your comments :)
I published yours comments on my site : http://www.demi-coqu...onner&Itemid=58

Photos wellcome, even of Subversion...


caution ! as I posted Subversion was not the name of the original one-ton , the right name escapes me.

#127 chorus1

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Posted 14 April 2011 - 09:19 AM




From my side the most disturbed (But serious) design in Europe was "Paul".
Paul was a one tonner IOR Joubert NIvelt design 80's years ? or before, issued from an extended (by the middle) half tonner, with a cat main sail.
Rudder was 0.5 meter back off stern.
They never succeed to control the huge mainsail, and the boat was fast just only crosswind....
The boat never race out of La Rochelle France West Atlantic as far as i knew, if anyone got photos or historic, ure wellcome :)


Aaah "Paul" !

The whole La Rochelle spirit of the "freak" years !

Michel Joubert, just recently joined by Bernard Nivelt at the time, had evolved in 4-5 years from a talented hippie designer to a serious design office thanks to the hundreds of boats built to his design by the fledgling french boatbuilding giants.
Part of that money was going into designing and building one-offs.

The "Paul" adventure was '76 , Joubert had gallantly lent us his '75 1/4 ton "Ombre" (complete with new sails !!!) for La Rochelle Week, then the N°1 french event and I lived a bit of "Paul" short history.

It all started from a one tonner they built in '74 called "Subversion" (pun was intended as in all Joubert's boat names and this one was meant as going further than "Revolution", the most advanced french design of '73). Flush-deck, low freeboard, short and light for a one-ton, I always felt her as pushing in the same direction as Peterson - she was designed just after Ganbare's "boom" in Sardinia.
"Subversion" had mixed results in the '74 OTC and did the whole RORC season under Joubert's brother and his wife (the founders of Tofinou classics) If she taught something that year it certainly was that offshore-racing would now be wet and uncomfortable !!! she quickly gained the nickname "Submarine".

By '76 "Subversion" was lying idle in the yard where Patrick Phelippon was building his winning Cat-Boat Mini-tonner "L'Effraie", just what Joubert needed to cut Subversion in 2, lengthen it by the middle and rig it as a cat-boat, add a some typical "Joubert" spice - like tracing down Gibson guitars sequined gel-coats ! and "Paul" was born.

Fun they had got and the boat was never fully trimmed nor seriously raced.
IIRC she ended up refitted and rerigged as a world girdling cruiser for some crazy frenchman.

Can't find any pic of Paul or Subversion right now, but here is one of "L'Effraie" a 1/4 ton size mini ton with a 33sqm main (upwind area for a mini-ton was closer to 23-25 sqm)


Thanks a lot Moody Frog feeling so young with your comments :)
I published yours comments on my site : http://www.demi-coqu...onner&Itemid=58

Photos wellcome, even of Subversion...


caution ! as I posted Subversion was not the name of the original one-ton , the right name escapes me.


Would think rather Repression have been used to built Paul no ?

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#128 Diarmuid

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Posted 15 April 2011 - 03:30 AM

I've been wondering about the IOR credentials of the FinnGulf 34.

Posted Image

Is that ... business ... going on in the last 8' of the boat all about ratings rules? Cuz that's some weird shit. Apparently designed by one Håkan Södergren. Also known as the Athena 34, without the tummy tuck?

Posted Image

Interesting boat, and the FinnGulf version is rather pretty until you get to the emaciated buttocks. How did it sail?

#129 moody frog

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Posted 15 April 2011 - 07:21 AM





From my side the most disturbed (But serious) design in Europe was "Paul".
Paul was a one tonner IOR Joubert NIvelt design 80's years ? or before, issued from an extended (by the middle) half tonner, with a cat main sail.
Rudder was 0.5 meter back off stern.
They never succeed to control the huge mainsail, and the boat was fast just only crosswind....
The boat never race out of La Rochelle France West Atlantic as far as i knew, if anyone got photos or historic, ure wellcome :)


Aaah "Paul" !

The whole La Rochelle spirit of the "freak" years !

Michel Joubert, just recently joined by Bernard Nivelt at the time, had evolved in 4-5 years from a talented hippie designer to a serious design office thanks to the hundreds of boats built to his design by the fledgling french boatbuilding giants.
Part of that money was going into designing and building one-offs.

The "Paul" adventure was '76 , Joubert had gallantly lent us his '75 1/4 ton "Ombre" (complete with new sails !!!) for La Rochelle Week, then the N°1 french event and I lived a bit of "Paul" short history.

It all started from a one tonner they built in '74 called "Subversion" (pun was intended as in all Joubert's boat names and this one was meant as going further than "Revolution", the most advanced french design of '73). Flush-deck, low freeboard, short and light for a one-ton, I always felt her as pushing in the same direction as Peterson - she was designed just after Ganbare's "boom" in Sardinia.
"Subversion" had mixed results in the '74 OTC and did the whole RORC season under Joubert's brother and his wife (the founders of Tofinou classics) If she taught something that year it certainly was that offshore-racing would now be wet and uncomfortable !!! she quickly gained the nickname "Submarine".

By '76 "Subversion" was lying idle in the yard where Patrick Phelippon was building his winning Cat-Boat Mini-tonner "L'Effraie", just what Joubert needed to cut Subversion in 2, lengthen it by the middle and rig it as a cat-boat, add a some typical "Joubert" spice - like tracing down Gibson guitars sequined gel-coats ! and "Paul" was born.

Fun they had got and the boat was never fully trimmed nor seriously raced.
IIRC she ended up refitted and rerigged as a world girdling cruiser for some crazy frenchman.

Can't find any pic of Paul or Subversion right now, but here is one of "L'Effraie" a 1/4 ton size mini ton with a 33sqm main (upwind area for a mini-ton was closer to 23-25 sqm)


Thanks a lot Moody Frog feeling so young with your comments :)
I published yours comments on my site : http://www.demi-coqu...onner&Itemid=58

Photos wellcome, even of Subversion...


caution ! as I posted Subversion was not the name of the original one-ton , the right name escapes me.


Would think rather Repression have been used to built Paul no ?


Excellent find Chorus.

"Repression" it was of course !!!

I had suddenly realised that Subversion was the flattish orange and yellow ULDB of '73 (pic1), but the name of the pocket one-ton (to be lengthened into Paul) was escaping my old mind-cells.

I should have re-read Mao-Dze-Dong's little red book ;) Revolution ---- Subversion ------Repression :) full logic !

I thought I remembered that "Repression" had little side-cockpits/bathtubs "à la" "Bes" and "Ginkgo" and yes she had ! Talk about comfort !

#130 Bob Perry

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Posted 15 April 2011 - 02:54 PM

Diarm:
Yes, that sucked in portion of the stern is all about getting the AGS and AIGS squished together and forward to reduce LBG and L. Then the designer did what he could to try and capture back some of the lost sailing length. It could be done with grace but that's not the case with the pic you posted. Nice looking double ender behind it though.

#131 chorus1

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Posted 15 April 2011 - 10:13 PM

Paul Story

Paul story is now completed on my site and translated in French !
Tx Moody frog for your help !

#132 Icedtea

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Posted 15 April 2011 - 11:08 PM

Jeez that thing looks nuts :P

Jeez that thing looks nuts :P

#133 Diarmuid

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Posted 16 April 2011 - 06:32 PM

Nice looking double ender behind it though.


;) Would not, as the saying goes, kick it outta bed for eatin' crackers. My heart belongs to the knife bows and low coaches of Scandinavian/Nordic-influenced designs, tho. Albin, Scanmar, Omega, the Wauquiez Pretorian ... shape like a thrown dart. The FinnGulf is right right up until it's wrong.

So the theory was to screw with girth even if it made the boat slower, as long as is wasn't quite as slow as the station measurements predicted it would be? Sounds like Finite Element Analysis with too few elements. Could an algorithm like the IOR rule work if it used lots more measurement stations, real heavy curve-crunching software that would more accurately predict performance & suck the advantage out of abrupt transitions like the FinnGulf's? That is, could the IOR rule work given a laser scan & good modeling software? Or have Box Rules pretty much rendered the question moot? (Sorry, I know almost nothing about ratings games.)

Exile me to Cruising Anarchy, but the notion of purposefully degrading your boat's handling or performance for a small ratings advantage seems ... unthinkable. :(

#134 sledracr

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Posted 16 April 2011 - 07:04 PM

could the IOR rule work given a laser scan & good modeling software?


That was the theory behind IMS and its measuring-wand and VPP.

#135 Bob Perry

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Posted 16 April 2011 - 07:20 PM

Yep, Sled has it right. That's exactly what the IMS was supposed to correct.

Sled:
I have a whole pile of IOR certs and data sitting here waiting for you.

It's pouring down rain here, again. Home alone watching Stanley Cup playoffs, waiting for the opera to start on CBC 2.

#136 JimC

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Posted 16 April 2011 - 07:26 PM

So the theory was to screw with girth even if it made the boat slower, as long as is wasn't quite as slow as the station measurements predicted it would be?

Well that's always the problem with handicap rules... the purpose of a handicap rule is to enable the doggiest of old dogs to race level with the trickest ship going. So if you want a performance advantage you've got to either build a fast boat that is even faster than the rule thinks it is, or a slow boat that isn't as slow as the rule think it is. The latter option is probably a sight easier...

#137 sledracr

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Posted 16 April 2011 - 07:28 PM

Sled:
I have a whole pile of IOR certs and data sitting here waiting for you.


I haven't forgotten! Just...rarely in town this time of year (busy time at work...)

#138 moody frog

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Posted 17 April 2011 - 09:58 AM

Not only are these threads a nice way to look back to good memories, it also forces some interesting after thoughts, I think !

Exile me to Cruising Anarchy, but the notion of purposefully degrading your boat's handling or performance for a small ratings advantage seems ... unthinkable.

.

IOR was just a compromise of two handicap rules, rules which were meant to have different boats competing together in the fairest way.
Measurements were over simplified to allow local and cheap measurers. So: it worked in getting many people into racing.

Re-reading all this, It strikes me (wrongly ?) that the succesful introduction of level-rating classes may have changed the game:
My feeling is that, before we had to go to one or the other level-rating class to get good racing, owners and crews were looking for a nice boat (obviously rule typeformed) and tweak it in details (such as sailplan) for the best rating/performance ratio, in the most common weather-conditions.

Later in the ton-cups heydays the game had changed, one would be looking to have a boat designed to improved polars over the previous winner, which quite logically ended rating higher than level, then tweak it through loopholes to fit into the target rating.
It was not so much "degrading your boat's handling or performance for a small ratings advantage" but retaining the performance while decreasing the rating through ugliness. First measurement .4 or 5 of a foot above level, micro-baloon her down to class without loosing speed. Introduce the distortion into next year's original drawing then do it again.
,
Equally wrong, may be, were the early actions, like bringing a boat up to level by taking genoa-penalty (over 150% LPG). Closer in speed in their level-class the boats were less nice to sail and ... less competitive in pure handicap races, the Holland Nic 33 is a good exemple - much more effective in handicap .2 or 3 of a foot below 3/4 ton. Not as "visible" as ugly distortions but equally deceiptive IMHO.

After going through this, we had, in our little racing community, a "light brigade"- no rating-tricks - boat designed and built without any "target-rating". It was a huge success in handicap races, with a Channel Race win overall (in an Adm-cup year !) and a Fastnet class win.
She fell into oblivion, while the "tonner" the rest of our group of sailors sailed in the same year remains a benchmark despite a lesser success list. She had duly beated all the tonners but ... totally escaped front pages, nobody was interested.
This was not what people were looking for.

At the time, I chose to crew on the tonner, not the handicap racer, much more "in" and attractive probably. Reality has claimed its dues: I have never won the Fastnet :)

Is not all this how things go in life.

#139 Diarmuid

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Posted 17 April 2011 - 05:29 PM

Not only are these threads a nice way to look back to good memories, it also forces some interesting after thoughts, I think !

Exile me to Cruising Anarchy, but the notion of purposefully degrading your boat's handling or performance for a small ratings advantage seems ... unthinkable.

.

IOR was just a compromise of two handicap rules, rules which were meant to have different boats competing together in the fairest way.
Measurements were over simplified to allow local and cheap measurers. So: it worked in getting many people into racing.

Re-reading all this, It strikes me (wrongly ?) that the succesful introduction of level-rating classes may have changed the game:
My feeling is that, before we had to go to one or the other level-rating class to get good racing, owners and crews were looking for a nice boat (obviously rule typeformed) and tweak it in details (such as sailplan) for the best rating/performance ratio, in the most common weather-conditions.

Later in the ton-cups heydays the game had changed, one would be looking to have a boat designed to improved polars over the previous winner, which quite logically ended rating higher than level, then tweak it through loopholes to fit into the target rating.
It was not so much "degrading your boat's handling or performance for a small ratings advantage" but retaining the performance while decreasing the rating through ugliness. First measurement .4 or 5 of a foot above level, micro-baloon her down to class without loosing speed. Introduce the distortion into next year's original drawing then do it again.
,
Equally wrong, may be, were the early actions, like bringing a boat up to level by taking genoa-penalty (over 150% LPG). Closer in speed in their level-class the boats were less nice to sail and ... less competitive in pure handicap races, the Holland Nic 33 is a good exemple - much more effective in handicap .2 or 3 of a foot below 3/4 ton. Not as "visible" as ugly distortions but equally deceiptive IMHO.

After going through this, we had, in our little racing community, a "light brigade"- no rating-tricks - boat designed and built without any "target-rating". It was a huge success in handicap races, with a Channel Race win overall (in an Adm-cup year !) and a Fastnet class win.
She fell into oblivion, while the "tonner" the rest of our group of sailors sailed in the same year remains a benchmark despite a lesser success list. She had duly beated all the tonners but ... totally escaped front pages, nobody was interested.
This was not what people were looking for.

At the time, I chose to crew on the tonner, not the handicap racer, much more "in" and attractive probably. Reality has claimed its dues: I have never won the Fastnet :)

Is not all this how things go in life.


Thanks for the insights. That's very useful history for someone trying to learn about those times. While they may not have been competitive -- too moderate, perhaps? -- I'm glad that many "unfreaked" half- and 3/4-ton IOR production boats were built before the rule was abandoned. People like myself can buy them at quite low prices, and they can make decent cruisers with a little work. So there's IOR boats out there to please every taste, right?:) Disturbed, or ... turbed? Undisturbed? (Tho damn, some of those genoas were big.)

#140 Frumious Bandersnatch

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Posted 17 April 2011 - 06:34 PM

Diarm:
Yes, that sucked in portion of the stern is all about getting the AGS and AIGS squished together and forward to reduce LBG and L. Then the designer did what he could to try and capture back some of the lost sailing length. It could be done with grace but that's not the case with the pic you posted. Nice looking double ender behind it though.


The "Nice looking double ender behind it though" being one of your designs, Bob? Is it a Baba?

#141 Bob Perry

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Posted 17 April 2011 - 06:39 PM

Frumious:
Looks like an FD35 to me. Some people call them Baba 35's.

#142 Laser1

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Posted 18 April 2011 - 11:40 AM

Not only are these threads a nice way to look back to good memories, it also forces some interesting after thoughts, I think !


Exile me to Cruising Anarchy, but the notion of purposefully degrading your boat's handling or performance for a small ratings advantage seems ... unthinkable.

.

IOR was just a compromise of two handicap rules, rules which were meant to have different boats competing together in the fairest way.


This not only happened at the onset of IOR but I can remember that when Carter Tina 'Gazela' was built in GRP under the old RORC rule in 1967/8 she would have rated top of class 3. Penalties were taken on spinnaker pole length, boom length and hull weight. She weighed in at 7.8 tons with being over an inch thick, solid GRP, on the waterline. All this in order to get into bottom of class 2.

I think the term "built like a brick ....house" comes to mind. Compare that to your production built 34 footer these days.

At least in those days the boats still looked magnificent though.

#143 moody frog

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Posted 18 April 2011 - 12:31 PM

Yep the RORC rule was not exempt of stupid things either.

Handicap was the thing, and tweaking in order to get in an other less competitive class was a classic.

The big step forward of the Tinas led to a number people fleeing from Class III. We went one class down with the Illingworth, going up while there were not too many "new shapes" in that class made some sense.
I wonder how "Gazela" fared against the first "Tonnerre" ?

You mention hull scantlings, one of the craziest thing was the "scantlings deduction"
I can't remember the hull situation although I have the feeling that steel Tinas were better rated than GRP, But I do very well remember the "deck scantling deductions"
It led Illingworth in the UK (Oryx and Monk) and Harlé (Cognac) in France to go for very wide and long 5 to 6" inches high "false" roofs, sometimes with and additional small roof for height.
Rationale was that the deck was now only the narrow side decks and foremost foredeck, you could now make them very heavy and sometimes teak-clad, gaining full allowance without taking too much weight.

Designed before the 1/2 T Cup was announced, the Super-Challengers rated above half-ton. The early ones had to go for a wooden-mast!! as there was still a penalty on aluminium. Then they moved to a light -strong but not stiff !- GRP roof, one even had teak-decks!

Rule-makers are always to be taken at their own game don't they :D

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#144 chorus1

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Posted 18 April 2011 - 02:50 PM

Yep the RORC rule was not exempt of stupid things either.

Handicap was the thing, and tweaking in order to get in an other less competitive class was a classic.

The big step forward of the Tinas led to a number people fleeing from Class III. We went one class down with the Illingworth, going up while there were not too many "new shapes" in that class made some sense.
I wonder how "Gazela" fared against the first "Tonnerre" ?

You mention hull scantlings, one of the craziest thing was the "scantlings deduction"
I can't remember the hull situation although I have the feeling that steel Tinas were better rated than GRP, But I do very well remember the "deck scantling deductions"
It led Illingworth in the UK (Oryx and Monk) and Harlé (Cognac) in France to go for very wide and long 5 to 6" inches high "false" roofs, sometimes with and additional small roof for height.
Rationale was that the deck was now only the narrow side decks and foremost foredeck, you could now make them very heavy and sometimes teak-clad, gaining full allowance without taking too much weight.

Designed before the 1/2 T Cup was announced, the Super-Challengers rated above half-ton. The early ones had to go for a wooden-mast!! as there was still a penalty on aluminium. Then they moved to a light -strong but not stiff !- GRP roof, one even had teak-decks!

Rule-makers are always to be taken at their own game don't they :D


I think this fisrt Tonnerre de Breskens ure talkin about won every race she engaged.... The only problem is that she never sailed far away from North sea and Belgium :)
She had a very good rating but almost a very good local crew !!




#145 t-slice

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Posted 18 April 2011 - 03:39 PM

What are Bilge boards?

T

#146 moody frog

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Posted 18 April 2011 - 03:42 PM


Yep the RORC rule was not exempt of stupid things either.

Handicap was the thing, and tweaking in order to get in an other less competitive class was a classic.

The big step forward of the Tinas led to a number people fleeing from Class III. We went one class down with the Illingworth, going up while there were not too many "new shapes" in that class made some sense.
I wonder how "Gazela" fared against the first "Tonnerre" ?

You mention hull scantlings, one of the craziest thing was the "scantlings deduction"
I can't remember the hull situation although I have the feeling that steel Tinas were better rated than GRP, But I do very well remember the "deck scantling deductions"
It led Illingworth in the UK (Oryx and Monk) and Harlé (Cognac) in France to go for very wide and long 5 to 6" inches high "false" roofs, sometimes with and additional small roof for height.
Rationale was that the deck was now only the narrow side decks and foremost foredeck, you could now make them very heavy and sometimes teak-clad, gaining full allowance without taking too much weight.

Designed before the 1/2 T Cup was announced, the Super-Challengers rated above half-ton. The early ones had to go for a wooden-mast!! as there was still a penalty on aluminium. Then they moved to a light -strong but not stiff !- GRP roof, one even had teak-decks!

Rule-makers are always to be taken at their own game don't they :D


I think this fisrt Tonnerre de Breskens ure talkin about won every race she engaged.... The only problem is that she never sailed far away from North sea and Belgium :)
She had a very good rating but almost a very good local crew !!


Laser-1 knows Tonnerre much better than I do, but you are wrong : she raced all the RORC races with successes in the Adm Cup and a 2nd and 3rd in the Fastnet in consecutive races - with different transoms IIRC - (and this was not the earliest top placing of the owner and crew)!! Not too "local" racers !!

#147 moody frog

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Posted 18 April 2011 - 04:09 PM

What are Bilge boards?

T


On yachts like "Terrorist": Angled-out daggerboards either side, just like the current Imoca 60s (but without any canting or non-canting keel)

#148 chorus1

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Posted 18 April 2011 - 08:19 PM



Yep the RORC rule was not exempt of stupid things either.

Handicap was the thing, and tweaking in order to get in an other less competitive class was a classic.

The big step forward of the Tinas led to a number people fleeing from Class III. We went one class down with the Illingworth, going up while there were not too many "new shapes" in that class made some sense.
I wonder how "Gazela" fared against the first "Tonnerre" ?

You mention hull scantlings, one of the craziest thing was the "scantlings deduction"
I can't remember the hull situation although I have the feeling that steel Tinas were better rated than GRP, But I do very well remember the "deck scantling deductions"
It led Illingworth in the UK (Oryx and Monk) and Harlé (Cognac) in France to go for very wide and long 5 to 6" inches high "false" roofs, sometimes with and additional small roof for height.
Rationale was that the deck was now only the narrow side decks and foremost foredeck, you could now make them very heavy and sometimes teak-clad, gaining full allowance without taking too much weight.

Designed before the 1/2 T Cup was announced, the Super-Challengers rated above half-ton. The early ones had to go for a wooden-mast!! as there was still a penalty on aluminium. Then they moved to a light -strong but not stiff !- GRP roof, one even had teak-decks!

Rule-makers are always to be taken at their own game don't they :D


I think this fisrt Tonnerre de Breskens ure talkin about won every race she engaged.... The only problem is that she never sailed far away from North sea and Belgium :)
She had a very good rating but almost a very good local crew !!


Laser-1 knows Tonnerre much better than I do, but you are wrong : she raced all the RORC races with successes in the Adm Cup and a 2nd and 3rd in the Fastnet in consecutive races - with different transoms IIRC - (and this was not the earliest top placing of the owner and crew)!! Not too "local" racers !!

No pb Moody :), solent and north sea are not so far away :), but i agree "local" is not the right adjective for tonnerre....don't ban me please............................... my memory is not perfect right now :(



#149 t-slice

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Posted 18 April 2011 - 09:13 PM


What are Bilge boards?

T


On yachts like "Terrorist": Angled-out daggerboards either side, just like the current Imoca 60s (but without any canting or non-canting keel)



That's pretty rad! Thanks Moody Frog

T

#150 Tanton Y_M

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Posted 18 April 2011 - 11:01 PM

Yep the RORC rule was not exempt of stupid things either.

Handicap was the thing, and tweaking in order to get in an other less competitive class was a classic.

The big step forward of the Tinas led to a number people fleeing from Class III. We went one class down with the Illingworth, going up while there were not too many "new shapes" in that class made some sense.
I wonder how "Gazela" fared against the first "Tonnerre" ?

You mention hull scantlings, one of the craziest thing was the "scantlings deduction"
I can't remember the hull situation although I have the feeling that steel Tinas were better rated than GRP, But I do very well remember the "deck scantling deductions"
It led Illingworth in the UK (Oryx and Monk) and Harlé (Cognac) in France to go for very wide and long 5 to 6" inches high "false" roofs, sometimes with and additional small roof for height.
Rationale was that the deck was now only the narrow side decks and foremost foredeck, you could now make them very heavy and sometimes teak-clad, gaining full allowance without taking too much weight.

Designed before the 1/2 T Cup was announced, the Super-Challengers rated above half-ton. The early ones had to go for a wooden-mast!! as there was still a penalty on aluminium. Then they moved to a light -strong but not stiff !- GRP roof, one even had teak-decks!

Rule-makers are always to be taken at their own game don't they :D



I just checked Oryx plans. The "deck" is 38mm. (1.1/2") thick.

#151 SloopJohnB

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Posted 18 April 2011 - 11:09 PM

Rainbow II was changed a bit when she went up to Germany for the one ton cup, I think the decks were replaced with steel plate to get more sail area.

#152 moody frog

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Posted 19 April 2011 - 07:59 AM


Yep the RORC rule was not exempt of stupid things either.

Handicap was the thing, and tweaking in order to get in an other less competitive class was a classic.

The big step forward of the Tinas led to a number people fleeing from Class III. We went one class down with the Illingworth, going up while there were not too many "new shapes" in that class made some sense.
I wonder how "Gazela" fared against the first "Tonnerre" ?

You mention hull scantlings, one of the craziest thing was the "scantlings deduction"
I can't remember the hull situation although I have the feeling that steel Tinas were better rated than GRP, But I do very well remember the "deck scantling deductions"
It led Illingworth in the UK (Oryx and Monk) and Harlé (Cognac) in France to go for very wide and long 5 to 6" inches high "false" roofs, sometimes with and additional small roof for height.
Rationale was that the deck was now only the narrow side decks and foremost foredeck, you could now make them very heavy and sometimes teak-clad, gaining full allowance without taking too much weight.

Designed before the 1/2 T Cup was announced, the Super-Challengers rated above half-ton. The early ones had to go for a wooden-mast!! as there was still a penalty on aluminium. Then they moved to a light -strong but not stiff !- GRP roof, one even had teak-decks!

Rule-makers are always to be taken at their own game don't they :D



I just checked Oryx plans. The "deck" is 38mm. (1.1/2") thick.


Thks Y-M !
Incidentally Monk is right up there in my favourites list too, a very refined concept IMHO.

You were lucky to be in the game in the late 60s, I had to be content with being a young pain-in-the-neck with the local wintering yard and the one RORC-racer paid hand, while starting to make my way through the local infra-RORC offshore scene.

#153 moody frog

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Posted 19 April 2011 - 08:18 AM




Yep the RORC rule was not exempt of stupid things either.

Handicap was the thing, and tweaking in order to get in an other less competitive class was a classic.

The big step forward of the Tinas led to a number people fleeing from Class III. We went one class down with the Illingworth, going up while there were not too many "new shapes" in that class made some sense.
I wonder how "Gazela" fared against the first "Tonnerre" ?

You mention hull scantlings, one of the craziest thing was the "scantlings deduction"
I can't remember the hull situation although I have the feeling that steel Tinas were better rated than GRP, But I do very well remember the "deck scantling deductions"
It led Illingworth in the UK (Oryx and Monk) and Harlé (Cognac) in France to go for very wide and long 5 to 6" inches high "false" roofs, sometimes with and additional small roof for height.
Rationale was that the deck was now only the narrow side decks and foremost foredeck, you could now make them very heavy and sometimes teak-clad, gaining full allowance without taking too much weight.

Designed before the 1/2 T Cup was announced, the Super-Challengers rated above half-ton. The early ones had to go for a wooden-mast!! as there was still a penalty on aluminium. Then they moved to a light -strong but not stiff !- GRP roof, one even had teak-decks!

Rule-makers are always to be taken at their own game don't they :D


I think this fisrt Tonnerre de Breskens ure talkin about won every race she engaged.... The only problem is that she never sailed far away from North sea and Belgium :)
She had a very good rating but almost a very good local crew !!


Laser-1 knows Tonnerre much better than I do, but you are wrong : she raced all the RORC races with successes in the Adm Cup and a 2nd and 3rd in the Fastnet in consecutive races - with different transoms IIRC - (and this was not the earliest top placing of the owner and crew)!! Not too "local" racers !!

No pb Moody :), solent and north sea are not so far away , but i agree "local" is not the right adjective for tonnerre....don't ban me please............................... my memory is not perfect right now :(


:) memory ages faster than nice boats, as I can feel myself !!

Actually, on top of "Tonnerre" going abroad, Breskens was something special at the time: one of the top centers in the world. I would rate it a bit like Auckland today: Very eager young racing owners, a yard building big numbers of racers to the best worldwide designs (Hood, Stephens, VdStadt, Carter, Chance) and designing their own boats + a big pool of crews with unique international experience.
Winning locally was a passport to international success.

#154 Laser1

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Posted 19 April 2011 - 11:43 AM

Moody, spot on!

Some old pics of Frans Maas' yard in the early seventies. I was only a wee nipper then but heard the stories of all the then great designers experimenting with their creations right on my doorstep (I actually lived accross the road from the yard). Can remember the stories about Red Rooster vividly and a new launch was always exciting stuff.

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#155 fivestar

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Posted 21 April 2011 - 11:52 PM

Not sure if this is the correct forum, but the photo below details mid sections of state of the art 1975 Admirals Cup Boats especially Yoeman XX
5*

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#156 moody frog

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Posted 22 April 2011 - 08:24 AM

Not sure if this is the correct forum, but the photo below details mid sections of state of the art 1975 Admirals Cup Boats especially Yoeman XX
5*


Of course it does !

Besides Yeoman XX, interesting to see VIHUELA a totally different school of IOR boats, to my eyes at the time it looked as a big FD.

Carcano the designer was said to be Moto-Guzzi's head designer, and he did a few boats along that style.

Vihuela was fast downwind in a blow even at the '75 AC but had a too narrow performing band.

IIRC, from being there, during Marseilles week of '77 when one-tonner Airel and crew were lost, she was also missing, but what later found drifting very far South, crew was saved by a tanker but I don't know what happened of the boat.

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#157 fivestar

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Posted 22 April 2011 - 08:36 AM

Have a couple of dark pictures of Carcano out of the water which I can copy and post courtsey of 1977 AC issue of Seahorse, if you are interested.
I also have a number of photos of the 1976 Two Ton Cup held in Kiel, when two tonners were two tonners. the most interesting being the two ton versions of the 1975 German AC yachts Rubin and Duva.

#158 moody frog

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Posted 22 April 2011 - 08:43 AM

Have a couple of dark pictures of Carcano out of the water which I can copy and post courtsey of 1977 AC issue of Seahorse, if you are interested.
I also have a number of photos of the 1976 Two Ton Cup held in Kiel, when two tonners were two tonners. the most interesting being the two ton versions of the 1975 German AC yachts Rubin and Duva.


Would be a nice addition to the thread !

1977 AC issue of Seahorse

good idea, I just realise I hv the Seahorse '79 AC program off-hand will see what's in it !
After all it's Friday here at the office.

#159 fivestar

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Posted 22 April 2011 - 08:47 AM

Its Good Friday here so a holiday.
here's one which may interest you being French. I think this was the 1977 or 1978 Middle Sea Race. The lone female crew wore the skimpiest bikini I had seen for some time in those days. I must dig it out far more interesting than this.

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#160 moody frog

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Posted 22 April 2011 - 09:02 AM

Its Good Friday here so a holiday.
here's one which may interest you being French. I think this was the 1977 or 1978 Middle Sea Race. The lone female crew wore the skimpiest bikini I had seen for some time in those days. I must dig it out far more interesting than this.


;) Must have been 77 as I was there in '78 and she was not.

Pretty interesting boat, the designer Daniel Tortarolo popped out of nearly nowhere around '76 with that boat which was totally different from anything else rather high dspl and bulky while rounded, originally red and without the transom scoop.
This led him to a nice career with big french boatbuilders and he specialized somehow in full centreboarders

#161 fivestar

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Posted 22 April 2011 - 09:05 AM

Finally got it below 1mb

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#162 fivestar

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Posted 22 April 2011 - 09:07 AM

Had a look inside and would have preferred to stay on deck. it was designed for midgets!!


Its Good Friday here so a holiday.
here's one which may interest you being French. I think this was the 1977 or 1978 Middle Sea Race. The lone female crew wore the skimpiest bikini I had seen for some time in those days. I must dig it out far more interesting than this.


;) Must have been 77 as I was there in '78 and she was not.

Pretty interesting boat, the designer Daniel Tortarolo popped out of nearly nowhere around '76 with that boat which was totally different from anything else rather high dspl and bulky while rounded, originally red and without the transom scoop.
This led him to a nice career with big french boatbuilders and he specialized somehow in full centreboarders



#163 fivestar

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Posted 22 April 2011 - 09:10 AM

Here's teaser of the Two Ton Cup.
Willawaw alongside Anita a S&S modified Two Ton along the lines of Rubin and Duva

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#164 moody frog

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Posted 22 April 2011 - 09:35 AM

Had a look inside and would have preferred to stay on deck. it was designed for midgets!!



Its Good Friday here so a holiday.
here's one which may interest you being French. I think this was the 1977 or 1978 Middle Sea Race. The lone female crew wore the skimpiest bikini I had seen for some time in those days. I must dig it out far more interesting than this.


;) Must have been 77 as I was there in '78 and she was not.

Pretty interesting boat, the designer Daniel Tortarolo popped out of nearly nowhere around '76 with that boat which was totally different from anything else rather high dspl and bulky while rounded, originally red and without the transom scoop.
This led him to a nice career with big french boatbuilders and he specialized somehow in full centreboarders


You said it: it's a French boat ! so: designed around diminutive frenchies ;)

#165 moody frog

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Posted 22 April 2011 - 09:38 AM

Finally got it below 1mb


Thks, seen many years after with hindsight, it's interesting to see how Carcano was researching in the direction of the current box-rules transoceanic racers. Pitifully, wrong time, wrong races.

#166 moody frog

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Posted 22 April 2011 - 10:25 AM

Went through the '79 Seahorse AdmC guide, thanks to fivestar.

Not much to be seen about cup boats but .....

details of Oystercatcher by the "king of distortions" Stephen Jones, with this educated comment by the magazine:

" The giant dimensions of the hull above are not reflected in the underwater body which, commensurate with a moderate displacement, is narrow on the waterline and shallow. It is simply a function of freeboard and overhang outside the waterplane both transverse and longitudinal - hence the large beam and long overall length. Nevertheless the rated length is moderate for a one-tonner, less than 30ft, which leaves room for a generous RSAT of 775ft. Since her actual displacement at inclining trim is 12,650 lbs it is tempting to make a comparison with Ganbare the first of the small boat, big rig type one tonners of 1973, whose published displacement was 12,500 lbs. Oystercatcher is 6ft longer overall, 3ft wider on deck, about 4ins higher with 55sqft greater RSAT and has almost the same waterline beam and same ballast of 6600 lbs some of which is internal."

Sums it all up !

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#167 hughw

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Posted 22 April 2011 - 10:38 AM

Besides Yeoman XX, interesting to see VIHUELA a totally different school of IOR boats, to my eyes at the time it looked as a big FD.

Carcano the designer was said to be Moto-Guzzi's head designer, and he did a few boats along that style.

Vihuela was fast downwind in a blow even at the '75 AC but had a too narrow performing band.

IIRC, from being there, during Marseilles week of '77 when one-tonner Airel and crew were lost, she was also missing, but what later found drifting very far South, crew was saved by a tanker but I don't know what happened of the boat.
[/quote]

Got some b&w pics of that marseilles week MF somewhere - reported it for YW at the time and I was on Assidous with the Swiss....remember that long race in the Mistral and the finishing line.....piling in toward the rocks flat out downhill and then gybe 100m off to reach along to the line. Scary stuff! Dark and blowing dogs off leads - cold too!

Vihuela was interesting boat though, and had pace at times fore sure.

#168 Gingerbread

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Posted 22 April 2011 - 10:57 AM

Went through the '79 Seahorse AdmC guide, thanks to fivestar.

Not much to be seen about cup boats but .....

details of Oystercatcher by the "king of distortions" Stephen Jones, with this educated comment by the magazine:

" The giant dimensions of the hull above are not reflected in the underwater body which, commensurate with a moderate displacement, is narrow on the waterline and shallow. It is simply a function of freeboard and overhang outside the waterplane both transverse and longitudinal - hence the large beam and long overall length. Nevertheless the rated length is moderate for a one-tonner, less than 30ft, which leaves room for a generous RSAT of 775ft. Since her actual displacement at inclining trim is 12,650 lbs it is tempting to make a comparison with Ganbare the first of the small boat, big rig type one tonners of 1973, whose published displacement was 12,500 lbs. Oystercatcher is 6ft longer overall, 3ft wider on deck, about 4ins higher with 55sqft greater RSAT and has almost the same waterline beam and same ballast of 6600 lbs some of which is internal."

Sums it all up !


Sums it up all right, a f%^&ing horror show :o

#169 fivestar

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Posted 22 April 2011 - 12:01 PM

Just noted that you did the m1978 Middle Sea Race. I sailed on Extravaganza a one off flush deck Swan 431. Full of luxury but unfortunately no coach roof so no head room. At least there was a decent head!
On which yacht did you sail?
Do you remember Zumbido sailing the first inshore with her spinnaker flying from the mast head?


Had a look inside and would have preferred to stay on deck. it was designed for midgets!!



Its Good Friday here so a holiday.
here's one which may interest you being French. I think this was the 1977 or 1978 Middle Sea Race. The lone female crew wore the skimpiest bikini I had seen for some time in those days. I must dig it out far more interesting than this.


;) Must have been 77 as I was there in '78 and she was not.

Pretty interesting boat, the designer Daniel Tortarolo popped out of nearly nowhere around '76 with that boat which was totally different from anything else rather high dspl and bulky while rounded, originally red and without the transom scoop.
This led him to a nice career with big french boatbuilders and he specialized somehow in full centreboarders


You said it: it's a French boat ! so: designed around diminutive frenchies ;)



#170 moody frog

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Posted 22 April 2011 - 12:10 PM

Got some b&w pics of that marseilles week MF somewhere - reported it for YW at the time and I was on Assidous with the Swiss....remember that long race in the Mistral and the finishing line.....piling in toward the rocks flat out downhill and then gybe 100m off to reach along to the line. Scary stuff! Dark and blowing dogs off leads - cold too!

Vihuela was interesting boat though, and had pace at times fore sure.



That was for sure an interesting race !! I was on a light flush-deck 1/2 ton with the owner, a very good helmsman, and a crew below twenty. On the way-out, along the coast after Frioul, full speed downhill and freshening I whispered to the owner " are the kids going to come all the way back upwind in this ?", he said "that's all I wanted to hear" and set to turn back. The retirement I'm most happy of. Once back, we went to the coast at night watching the big boats coming back, then to the finish line. Gitana VI, full racing crew aboard, came in fully powered and set to enter the old port through the "small" entrance behind the line, they backed off at the last minute and chose to go the long route to the main entrance. frightening they said!

#171 moody frog

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Posted 22 April 2011 - 12:51 PM

Just noted that you did the m1978 Middle Sea Race. I sailed on Extravaganza a one off flush deck Swan 431. Full of luxury but unfortunately no coach roof so no head room. At least there was a decent head!
On which yacht did you sail?
Do you remember Zumbido sailing the first inshore with her spinnaker flying from the mast head?



Had a look inside and would have preferred to stay on deck. it was designed for midgets!!



Its Good Friday here so a holiday.
here's one which may interest you being French. I think this was the 1977 or 1978 Middle Sea Race. The lone female crew wore the skimpiest bikini I had seen for some time in those days. I must dig it out far more interesting than this.


;) Must have been 77 as I was there in '78 and she was not.

Pretty interesting boat, the designer Daniel Tortarolo popped out of nearly nowhere around '76 with that boat which was totally different from anything else rather high dspl and bulky while rounded, originally red and without the transom scoop.
This led him to a nice career with big french boatbuilders and he specialized somehow in full centreboarders


You said it: it's a French boat ! so: designed around diminutive frenchies ;)


I was running a Swan 47 called "Gradient", we would have had a decent medium result had not we fouled a tack at the start (the 47 without a pedestal was a disaster to tack) and got a P/S penalty.
We had had to miss the inshores as when cleaning the boat after the delivery we discovered a "plague" which proved to be "osmosis" a yet unknown name, the boat was 5 months old and Nautor chose to have the problem immediately settled at Manoel Island Yacht Yard, so we raced the inshores on land and on motocycles :)

I do remember Zumbido though as I arranged for John Ripard to charter it to a French owner contemplating a purchase, this (rather difficult) gentleman finally bought a 46.

Here is a picture I usually keep deeply buried into my computer :) how to miss the slam-dunk tack and end-up dead-stopped and fouling the boat you wanted to tack below and ahead, and having to then cross behind everybody. Oops !!
That was "Fantasque" (Huisman-Mauric); Nita IV and Emeraude are behind, you must be upwind there below Chica Tica III

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#172 fivestar

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Posted 22 April 2011 - 01:03 PM

Have to start a new frame.
Any idea what happened to extravaganza, she was hull#04, but I can never find any reference to her these days.
I believe the owner went on to do the Admirals Cup in a Valicelli design. I know that was his ambition.
I will also have to rummage through my old sailing photos of the 70s and see what i can find if they are not eaten by termites or stuck together.
5*

#173 carcrash

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Posted 22 April 2011 - 05:08 PM

I was sailing master on a maxi docked at Hamble Marina when Yeoman XX was dry sailed there. Every week the boat was modified and re-rated late Friday. Bumps added, moved, subtracted. Holes cut in the keel. Something all the time.

Eventually they started to chase a rating factor that gave a benefit for how deep the prop was: deeper the prop, better the rating. So they had the idea of putting the shaft deep in the keel, running horizontally so perhaps less drag than an inclined shaft. Still wanted the strut benefit, but put the vertical strut pretty close to the trailing edge of the keel. Needless to say, it was a fiddly installation: cut (another) big hole in the lead slab keel, rig up chain between transmission and prop shaft. Anyway, they ran out of time, and so one weekend the raced (and were rated with) dual props and shafts!

By the end of that year, the originally beautiful and fair boat looked like a train wreck. No wonder those owners sold those boats every year!

Odd Job was also there, in its original white with red and blue stripe paint job, with stripes high up on the mast too. Not only was the hull "interesting" but the rig had no spreaders or backstay, but was rigged like a beach cat.

#174 Icedtea

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Posted 22 April 2011 - 08:35 PM

Do you have any pics of that mad yoke?
Sounds crazy :P

#175 bighugh

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Posted 24 April 2011 - 12:58 PM

Not sure if this is the correct forum, but the photo below details mid sections of state of the art 1975 Admirals Cup Boats especially Yoeman XX
5*



Delivered Vihuella back to Anzio in Italy after the 75 Admirals Cup with the legendary Mike Birch. It always reminded me of an overgrown FD. It could go like a blur downwind. We put a kite up going down Biscay and had an amazing 24 hour run. She had a stern hung rudder with an incredibly long tiller. she was no slouch upwind in a breeze either. Problem was, she rated like a maxi; although downwind in a breeze she was probably as fast. Happy days!

#176 fivestar

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Posted 25 April 2011 - 01:21 AM

Now this is a classic. Represented France four times in the Admirals Cup from 1973 to 1979, also did an Atlantic Triangle race. Raced most times without an engine to achieve the desired rating.
Where is she now?

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#177 fivestar

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Posted 25 April 2011 - 01:22 AM

Can somebody kindly advise how do I post multiple photos in one reply. Tks - 5*

#178 in_TO

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Posted 25 April 2011 - 02:42 AM

I think the decks were replaced with steel plate to get more sail area.


Bwahahaha

#179 Icedtea

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Posted 25 April 2011 - 11:37 PM

Steel plate decks... Alotta weight high up :P

#180 fivestar

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Posted 27 April 2011 - 07:04 AM

Not sure if nI could count these as disturbed, but a contract in sterns from the 1976 two Ton Cup. who can guess the designers.

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#181 moody frog

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Posted 27 April 2011 - 07:33 AM

Now this is a classic. Represented France four times in the Admirals Cup from 1973 to 1979, also did an Atlantic Triangle race. Raced most times without an engine to achieve the desired rating.
Where is she now?


Revolution was sold some 20 years ago to spartan cruising addicts, I saw her once in a "classics" regatta many years ago, then she seemed to vanish from all radars, some said she was lying in a Med marina.

#182 fivestar

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Posted 27 April 2011 - 08:34 AM

Pity, a yacht like this should never be allowed to disappear, same goes for Ydra. Luckily Ganbare still seems looked after.


Now this is a classic. Represented France four times in the Admirals Cup from 1973 to 1979, also did an Atlantic Triangle race. Raced most times without an engine to achieve the desired rating.
Where is she now?


Revolution was sold some 20 years ago to spartan cruising addicts, I saw her once in a "classics" regatta many years ago, then she seemed to vanish from all radars, some said she was lying in a Med marina.



#183 fivestar

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Posted 27 April 2011 - 09:19 AM

Better get a spell checker should read:-
Not sure if one could count these as Disturbed, but a contrast in sterns from the 1976 two Ton Cup. Who can guess the designers.

Not sure if nI could count these as disturbed, but a contract in sterns from the 1976 two Ton Cup. who can guess the designers.



#184 gusmus

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Posted 28 April 2011 - 03:53 PM

IOR funny designs?. Beat this. And it still stands up today. Design 1973. Robber3, IOR 1/4 Tonner.Attached File  Robber3e.jpg   74K   145 downloads

#185 chorus1

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Posted 01 May 2011 - 07:47 AM

The right one 2d photo is Katsou, Two ton Ron Holland, André VIANT owner at that time.
A.Viant also got Esprit de Rueil a DC Tina.
The left one looks like a Peterson ?

Not sure if nI could count these as disturbed, but a contract in sterns from the 1976 two Ton Cup. who can guess the designers.



#186 fivestar

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Posted 01 May 2011 - 08:31 AM

Right one is Irish Mist II basically identical to Katsou. The red hulled on the left is Swantewit, a Peterson design, cold moulded by Burmester.

The right one 2d photo is Katsou, Two ton Ron Holland, André VIANT owner at that time.
A.Viant also got Esprit de Rueil a DC Tina.
The left one looks like a Peterson ?


Not sure if nI could count these as disturbed, but a contract in sterns from the 1976 two Ton Cup. who can guess the designers.



#187 moody frog

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Posted 01 May 2011 - 12:14 PM

Right one is Irish Mist II basically identical to Katsou. The red hulled on the left is Swantewit, a Peterson design, cold moulded by Burmester.


The right one 2d photo is Katsou, Two ton Ron Holland, André VIANT owner at that time.
A.Viant also got Esprit de Rueil a DC Tina.
The left one looks like a Peterson ?


Not sure if nI could count these as disturbed, but a contract in sterns from the 1976 two Ton Cup. who can guess the designers.


Correct Katsou was not at the '76 two-ton if I remember correctly.
She was in the '75 AdmCup French team, then went from October '75 to March '76 into a French race of the time, called "Triangle Atlantique": 3 stages : St-Malo-CapeTown
CapeTown-Rio, Rio-Porstmouth, which was her main objective, therefore she was quite heavily built.
I think she finished third in her class, despite dismasting prior the Capetown start, which led to an emergency repair I still remember.

She was then sold to the Glenans school who kept her for nearly 20 years and vanished.

IIRC she had side cockpits just like Guia/Ginkgo

#188 chorus1

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Posted 01 May 2011 - 04:53 PM


Right one is Irish Mist II basically identical to Katsou. The red hulled on the left is Swantewit, a Peterson design, cold moulded by Burmester.


The right one 2d photo is Katsou, Two ton Ron Holland, André VIANT owner at that time.
A.Viant also got Esprit de Rueil a DC Tina.
The left one looks like a Peterson ?


Not sure if nI could count these as disturbed, but a contract in sterns from the 1976 two Ton Cup. who can guess the designers.


Correct Katsou was not at the '76 two-ton if I remember correctly.
She was in the '75 AdmCup French team, then went from October '75 to March '76 into a French race of the time, called "Triangle Atlantique": 3 stages : St-Malo-CapeTown
CapeTown-Rio, Rio-Porstmouth, which was her main objective, therefore she was quite heavily built.
I think she finished third in her class, despite dismasting prior the Capetown start, which led to an emergency repair I still remember.

She was then sold to the Glenans school who kept her for nearly 20 years and vanished.

IIRC she had side cockpits just like Guia/Ginkgo


Accordingly those Two Ton cant be considered as disturbed IOR boats and would rather be in a Ron Holland Topic or Peterson topic:)

#189 fivestar

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Posted 01 May 2011 - 10:52 PM

Chorus, kindly read my #180. i have already stated that I am not sure these qualify as disturbed, however the photos were posted to show the different stern designs in 1976 which at that time some may have considered disturbed.



Right one is Irish Mist II basically identical to Katsou. The red hulled on the left is Swantewit, a Peterson design, cold moulded by Burmester.


The right one 2d photo is Katsou, Two ton Ron Holland, André VIANT owner at that time.
A.Viant also got Esprit de Rueil a DC Tina.
The left one looks like a Peterson ?


Not sure if nI could count these as disturbed, but a contract in sterns from the 1976 two Ton Cup. who can guess the designers.


Correct Katsou was not at the '76 two-ton if I remember correctly.
She was in the '75 AdmCup French team, then went from October '75 to March '76 into a French race of the time, called "Triangle Atlantique": 3 stages : St-Malo-CapeTown
CapeTown-Rio, Rio-Porstmouth, which was her main objective, therefore she was quite heavily built.
I think she finished third in her class, despite dismasting prior the Capetown start, which led to an emergency repair I still remember.

She was then sold to the Glenans school who kept her for nearly 20 years and vanished.

IIRC she had side cockpits just like Guia/Ginkgo


Accordingly those Two Ton cant be considered as disturbed IOR boats and would rather be in a Ron Holland Topic or Peterson topic:)



#190 davidweil

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Posted 02 May 2011 - 10:20 PM

This is a long thread to slug through - - - lots of praises to IOR designs and lots of discussions about funny looking boats. But one thing that I think was missed was the simlicity of sailing to an engineering handicap rule rather than a performance handicap. Most of us that sail PHRF have our own stories or stories from friends about unfair treatment by the local PHRF folks, and the headaches associated with trying to appeal your rating etc. There is just something refreshing about looking at the design numbers and coming up with a handicap.

Sailing in SoCal - there just not much one design sailing, so we are stuck with handicap sailing (Farr 40 and J105 probably being the exception - - - but even those guys can never put ten boats on a starting line). In the world of handicap sailing t would be nice to have something for an affordable boat that is more objective than PHRF. That's just my $.02.

And for what it's worth - - - I sail an old IOR boat - a 1980 Choate 40 - - - she has an absolutely gorgeous profile - - - and yes I need to eat my wheaties to drive the boat if we are sailing downwind offshore in any kind of a following or quartering sea. That part just comes with the territory.

#191 sledracr

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Posted 03 May 2011 - 03:40 AM

I sail an old IOR boat - a 1980 Choate 40 - - -


Which one?

#192 moody frog

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Posted 03 May 2011 - 07:54 AM

This is a long thread to slug through - - - lots of praises to IOR designs and lots of discussions about funny looking boats. But one thing that I think was missed was the simlicity of sailing to an engineering handicap rule rather than a performance handicap. Most of us that sail PHRF have our own stories or stories from friends about unfair treatment by the local PHRF folks, and the headaches associated with trying to appeal your rating etc. There is just something refreshing about looking at the design numbers and coming up with a handicap.

Sailing in SoCal - there just not much one design sailing, so we are stuck with handicap sailing (Farr 40 and J105 probably being the exception - - - but even those guys can never put ten boats on a starting line). In the world of handicap sailing t would be nice to have something for an affordable boat that is more objective than PHRF. That's just my $.02.

And for what it's worth - - - I sail an old IOR boat - a 1980 Choate 40 - - - she has an absolutely gorgeous profile - - - and yes I need to eat my wheaties to drive the boat if we are sailing downwind offshore in any kind of a following or quartering sea. That part just comes with the territory.


Agree !

We have the same problem over here, with the French Federation supporting their own handicap system while the Offshore Racing Union supports IRC. Clubs split between those running races under handicap and those using IRC, sometimes at short sailing distance from each other.

IRC definitely looks a better proposal than handicap which always seem to favour 4 KSB and sees a lot of cheating (mainly on sail sizes).
While supposedly secret, IRC allows some interesting tweaking work thanks to the opportunity of placing tentative certificates.
At least that's how I see it.

#193 SPORTSCAR

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Posted 03 May 2011 - 01:17 PM


Noeleen 3, Originally the late Ken Kings cold moulded Steinman 1 Tonner. The photo below (from the ORCV site just this week!) doesn't show her lines too well but the static waterline ends just slightly aft of the red stripe so the aft overhang is looooong!



Sportscar, you would remember that Noeleen was for sale a few years back (maybe still is?). I was at Sandy for Sail Melbourne and went to check out why such a big boat was so cheap. One walk down the marina was enough and the broker never received an enquiry from me! It truly is a "stand out" boat!


I stumbled across a no longer green Noeleen 111 in Williamstown today and took these shots of her seriously tortured stern and aft overhang.Attached File  HBYC 3 5 11 004.JPG   38.68K   90 downloads Attached File  HBYC 3 5 11 005.JPG   38.11K   121 downloads Attached File  HBYC 3 5 11 006.JPG   30.07K   93 downloads

#194 chorus1

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Posted 03 May 2011 - 05:46 PM

"While supposedly secret, IRC"

Hey Moody, why to use such adjective for IRC rule ? Have u any proof that anybody know it and use it to design faster IRC boats ??
Just kidding but please, its not a good way to speak about IRC rule...and you do not promote this French smart rule :) accordingly.
Next time 'll copy your post to Jean Sans....




This is a long thread to slug through - - - lots of praises to IOR designs and lots of discussions about funny looking boats. But one thing that I think was missed was the simlicity of sailing to an engineering handicap rule rather than a performance handicap. Most of us that sail PHRF have our own stories or stories from friends about unfair treatment by the local PHRF folks, and the headaches associated with trying to appeal your rating etc. There is just something refreshing about looking at the design numbers and coming up with a handicap.

Sailing in SoCal - there just not much one design sailing, so we are stuck with handicap sailing (Farr 40 and J105 probably being the exception - - - but even those guys can never put ten boats on a starting line). In the world of handicap sailing t would be nice to have something for an affordable boat that is more objective than PHRF. That's just my $.02.

And for what it's worth - - - I sail an old IOR boat - a 1980 Choate 40 - - - she has an absolutely gorgeous profile - - - and yes I need to eat my wheaties to drive the boat if we are sailing downwind offshore in any kind of a following or quartering sea. That part just comes with the territory.


Agree !

We have the same problem over here, with the French Federation supporting their own handicap system while the Offshore Racing Union supports IRC. Clubs split between those running races under handicap and those using IRC, sometimes at short sailing distance from each other.

IRC definitely looks a better proposal than handicap which always seem to favour 4 KSB and sees a lot of cheating (mainly on sail sizes).
While supposedly secret, IRC allows some interesting tweaking work thanks to the opportunity of placing tentative certificates.
At least that's how I see it.



#195 moody frog

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Posted 03 May 2011 - 06:09 PM

"While supposedly secret, IRC"

Hey Moody, why to use such adjective for IRC rule ? Have u any proof that anybody know it and use it to design faster IRC boats ??
Just kidding but please, its not a good way to speak about IRC rule...and you do not promote this French smart rule :) accordingly.
Next time 'll copy your post to Jean Sans....





This is a long thread to slug through - - - lots of praises to IOR designs and lots of discussions about funny looking boats. But one thing that I think was missed was the simlicity of sailing to an engineering handicap rule rather than a performance handicap. Most of us that sail PHRF have our own stories or stories from friends about unfair treatment by the local PHRF folks, and the headaches associated with trying to appeal your rating etc. There is just something refreshing about looking at the design numbers and coming up with a handicap.

Sailing in SoCal - there just not much one design sailing, so we are stuck with handicap sailing (Farr 40 and J105 probably being the exception - - - but even those guys can never put ten boats on a starting line). In the world of handicap sailing t would be nice to have something for an affordable boat that is more objective than PHRF. That's just my $.02.

And for what it's worth - - - I sail an old IOR boat - a 1980 Choate 40 - - - she has an absolutely gorgeous profile - - - and yes I need to eat my wheaties to drive the boat if we are sailing downwind offshore in any kind of a following or quartering sea. That part just comes with the territory.


Agree !

We have the same problem over here, with the French Federation supporting their own handicap system while the Offshore Racing Union supports IRC. Clubs split between those running races under handicap and those using IRC, sometimes at short sailing distance from each other.

IRC definitely looks a better proposal than handicap which always seem to favour 4 KSB and sees a lot of cheating (mainly on sail sizes).
While supposedly secret, IRC allows some interesting tweaking work thanks to the opportunity of placing tentative certificates.
At least that's how I see it.


I think any proper designer and/or project manager knows how it works, from experience, which is good ! and ...... it is as much British as it is French ;)

#196 chorus1

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Posted 03 May 2011 - 07:14 PM

I do not preach for french rules, just talkin friendly with specialists :) but..... can you explain from where IRC rules would be British ???? (Only one man, jean sans wrote te secret rule, may be he is a british guy in your mind ? :)


"While supposedly secret, IRC"

Hey Moody, why to use such adjective for IRC rule ? Have u any proof that anybody know it and use it to design faster IRC boats ??
Just kidding but please, its not a good way to speak about IRC rule...and you do not promote this French smart rule :) accordingly.
Next time 'll copy your post to Jean Sans....





This is a long thread to slug through - - - lots of praises to IOR designs and lots of discussions about funny looking boats. But one thing that I think was missed was the simlicity of sailing to an engineering handicap rule rather than a performance handicap. Most of us that sail PHRF have our own stories or stories from friends about unfair treatment by the local PHRF folks, and the headaches associated with trying to appeal your rating etc. There is just something refreshing about looking at the design numbers and coming up with a handicap.

Sailing in SoCal - there just not much one design sailing, so we are stuck with handicap sailing (Farr 40 and J105 probably being the exception - - - but even those guys can never put ten boats on a starting line). In the world of handicap sailing t would be nice to have something for an affordable boat that is more objective than PHRF. That's just my $.02.

And for what it's worth - - - I sail an old IOR boat - a 1980 Choate 40 - - - she has an absolutely gorgeous profile - - - and yes I need to eat my wheaties to drive the boat if we are sailing downwind offshore in any kind of a following or quartering sea. That part just comes with the territory.


Agree !

We have the same problem over here, with the French Federation supporting their own handicap system while the Offshore Racing Union supports IRC. Clubs split between those running races under handicap and those using IRC, sometimes at short sailing distance from each other.

IRC definitely looks a better proposal than handicap which always seem to favour 4 KSB and sees a lot of cheating (mainly on sail sizes).
While supposedly secret, IRC allows some interesting tweaking work thanks to the opportunity of placing tentative certificates.
At least that's how I see it.


I think any proper designer and/or project manager knows how it works, from experience, which is good ! and ...... it is as much British as it is French ;)





#197 davidweil

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Posted 04 May 2011 - 08:55 AM

I sail an old IOR boat - a 1980 Choate 40 - - -


Which one?


"Hurrah." It's been around SoCal for a long time - - - it had a wierd name when we bought it so we changed it back to "Hurrah" - it was campaigned under that name for quite a long time. We're building a new program with a new crew and zero budget so it'll be a while before we're a threat to anybody.

That's us dockside in the first picture, and then in the other picture we're on the right - on the line with the Frers 39 "Gator" (another IOR boat) leeward of us.

Attached File  DaveBoat_001.jpg   126.04K   95 downloads

Attached File  Hurrah_Gator_Start.JPG   616.71K   98 downloads


#198 On the Hard

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Posted 04 May 2011 - 02:30 PM


I sail an old IOR boat - a 1980 Choate 40 - - -


Which one?


"Hurrah." It's been around SoCal for a long time - - - it had a wierd name when we bought it so we changed it back to "Hurrah" - it was campaigned under that name for quite a long time. We're building a new program with a new crew and zero budget so it'll be a while before we're a threat to anybody.

That's us dockside in the first picture, and then in the other picture we're on the right - on the line with the Frers 39 "Gator" (another IOR boat) leeward of us.

Attached File  DaveBoat_001.jpg   126.04K   95 downloads

Attached File  Hurrah_Gator_Start.JPG   616.71K   98 downloads


Doesn't look a bit "Disturbed to me. Pretty boat to my eye, but then I always liked the lines of IOR boats. Apparently so do a lot of other people given the popularity of Larry's thread.

So on the Disturbed question and along the lines of Cascade, a well respected sailor I know converted a Cal 27 to a cat rigged ketch, ala Cascade. It rated 1/4 ton (!), but was ultimately uncompetitive in traditoinal bouy racing. But on a long reach it kicked ass. I'm pretty sure it won the Corpus Christi to Galveston race one year. Long water line (for a 1/4 tonner) and with enough sail area and breeze and it was tough to beat on corrected tme. As I recall Cascade was dominating on long reach offshore races but lost too much ground to windward to be competitive otherwise. My 2c worth

#199 sledracr

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Posted 04 May 2011 - 04:00 PM


I sail an old IOR boat - a 1980 Choate 40 - - -

Which one?

"Hurrah." It's been around SoCal for a long time - - - it had a wierd name when we bought it so we changed it back to "Hurrah" -


Awesome! I know Hurrah well, raced against it a ton "back in the day". I was one of the original crew of "Spirit" (hull #1), and spent a bunch of time on Audacious, BigWig and others. There's one up here (Seattle area) on the hard, don't know which one it is but it looks to be in good shape. Congrats, and enjoy the boat...it's a good one!

#200 davidweil

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Posted 04 May 2011 - 05:52 PM



I sail an old IOR boat - a 1980 Choate 40 - - -


Which one?


"Hurrah."


Doesn't look a bit "Disturbed to me. Pretty boat to my eye


Thanks! I don't have a photo handy that's taken from directly abeam, but I think the profile of this boat is absolutely beautiful. And the wide beam allows for pilot berths port & starboard - - - when's the last time you saw that on a J120?? The skinny butt makes it a little squirrely driving downwind, but after a round-up or two - - - or three - - - you get used to it . . .




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