481 replies to this topic

[davidweil]

I sail an old IOR boat - a 1980 Choate 40 - - -

Which one?

"Hurrah." It's been around SoCal for a long time - - - it had a wierd name when we bought it so we changed it back to "Hurrah" -

Awesome! I know Hurrah well, raced against it a ton "back in the day". I was one of the original crew of "Spirit" (hull #1), and spent a bunch of time on Audacious, BigWig and others. There's one up here (Seattle area) on the hard, don't know which one it is but it looks to be in good shape. Congrats, and enjoy the boat...it's a good one!

Very kewl! Audacious - - - boy talk about "back in the day!" I don't imagine you have any old photos of Hurrah from back in the day?? Was Audacious a flush deck configuration? - Don't remember. Those are in my opinion nowhere near as pretty as the raised trunk version but I'm sure the flush deck made them pretty workable. There is a trashed flush-deck Choate 40 that will be available soon in an estate sale in Long Beach - not sure which one it is but I've been aboard it and it's pretty rough.

[sledracr]

Very kewl! Audacious - - - boy talk about "back in the day!" I don't imagine you have any old photos of Hurrah from back in the day?? Was Audacious a flush deck configuration? - Don't remember. Those are in my opinion nowhere near as pretty as the raised trunk version but I'm sure the flush deck made them pretty workable. There is a trashed flush-deck Choate 40 that will be available soon in an estate sale in Long Beach - not sure which one it is but I've been aboard it and it's pretty rough.

Photos....uh.... yeah, probably, the challenge is putting my hands on them. My garage is a dark and scary place. I will say that the LAYC Midwinters and Long Beach Race week in the early 80s were both great get-togethers for Choate-40s. Sometimes we had 15-20 boats in (IOR) class, with at least half of them Choate-40s.

Yes, Audacious (43100) was a flush deck, as was BigWig (67745) and Blue Jacket (43433). Spirit (67401) had a raised trunk (along with a whole variety of different cockpit configurations)... There were a bunch of others in SoCal... Red Shift was always tough to beat, Trix, Masquerade, Midnight Sun, Rodeo Drive?... If I recall correctly, there were 10-12 of them active and competitive for a while. Lots of fun.

The "Audacious" family is here on SA and posts occasionally. There's also a Choate-40 thread which probably deserves to be dusted off from time to time: http://forums.sailin...&hl=choate&st=0

[davidweil]

Thanks Sled. I actually dug around and found that Choate 40 thread. And I noticed that Antony sailed on Hurrah - - - I'll need to ask him about that.

If we can get the crew tuned up - - - and find some way to shake the moths out of the checkbook for new sails and running rigging (yuk $$$$), we might do the old girl proud.

[sledracr]

If we can get the crew tuned up - - - and find some way to shake the moths out of the checkbook for new sails and running rigging (yuk $$$$), we might do the old girl proud.

Sounds good. Just don't stuff the bow through the side of any other boats (I have that photo somewhere, too) ;-)

[davidweil]

BTW - Just confirmed that the trashed flush-deck Choate 40 going through the estate sale in Long Beach is "Native Sun."

[sledracr]

BTW - Just confirmed that the trashed flush-deck Choate 40 going through the estate sale in Long Beach is "Native Sun."

Huh. Probably not the original name. There was a "Midnight Sun" back in the day, but I don't remember a Choate-40 "Native Son" (there was a Duffield-50 called Native Son, that's a whole different set of stories...)

[Nomenclature]

Yes, Audacious (43100) was a flush deck,

Then Audacious would be the boat that is now 'Seaward Road',
formerly owned by Ed Feo and currently hauled at the
Marina Shipyard.
I recall that Audacious was built with 1' of extra Beam.

[salkbj]

Edit on the above post:

Memory is failing for old-timers , IOR was too far away;

I am now sure that the original one-tonner cut into Paul name was not "Subversion", S was the name of the Joubert yacht of the year before, a pure ULDB, cannot remember the name of that one-ton though !!

Repression!

[chorus1]

Attached Repression photo, already published previously

Edit on the above post:

Memory is failing for old-timers , IOR was too far away;

I am now sure that the original one-tonner cut into Paul name was not "Subversion", S was the name of the Joubert yacht of the year before, a pure ULDB, cannot remember the name of that one-ton though !!

Repression!

Attached Files

•  REPRESSIONMJ2.jpg   150.73K   95 downloads

[heckler]

God that's bad... Is she still around or did somebody thankfully kill her?

I have a vague recollection of seeing her on LIS in the early 80s, but I could be wrong.

STFU.

I've been to Portland, Maine, a few times, decades ago, for an overnight race called the Monhegan. One time I stumbled upon Cascade in the downtown marina. Some funny guy lived on it year round. Are you that guy?

That article you posted early in this thread quotes a guy named Walter Greene. I think he may have had a hand in building Cascade. I think he also has the claim on flipping more multis during trans Atlantics than anyone else.

h

[chorus1]

Here is one shot of the true "Subversion" from JN, La Rochelle.

Notice the very low hull which make it sail like a submarine !!!

[

Attached Files

•  SUbversion.JPG   184.43K   32 downloads

[Nomenclature]

Here is one shot of the true "Subversion" from JN, La Rochelle.

Notice the very low hull which make it sail like a submarine !!!

[

Perhaps they should have named it 'Submersion'.

[MKennedy]

Very kewl! Audacious - - - boy talk about "back in the day!" I don't imagine you have any old photos of Hurrah from back in the day?? Was Audacious a flush deck configuration? - Don't remember. Those are in my opinion nowhere near as pretty as the raised trunk version but I'm sure the flush deck made them pretty workable. There is a trashed flush-deck Choate 40 that will be available soon in an estate sale in Long Beach - not sure which one it is but I've been aboard it and it's pretty rough.

Photos....uh.... yeah, probably, the challenge is putting my hands on them. My garage is a dark and scary place. I will say that the LAYC Midwinters and Long Beach Race week in the early 80s were both great get-togethers for Choate-40s. Sometimes we had 15-20 boats in (IOR) class, with at least half of them Choate-40s.

Yes, Audacious (43100) was a flush deck, as was BigWig (67745) and Blue Jacket (43433). Spirit (67401) had a raised trunk (along with a whole variety of different cockpit configurations)... There were a bunch of others in SoCal... Red Shift was always tough to beat, Trix, Masquerade, Midnight Sun, Rodeo Drive?... If I recall correctly, there were 10-12 of them active and competitive for a while. Lots of fun.

The "Audacious" family is here on SA and posts occasionally. There's also a Choate-40 thread which probably deserves to be dusted off from time to time: http://forums.sailin...&hl=choate&st=0

Other way around. Audacious was 43433 and Blue Jacket was 43100. I think Masquerade was Big Wig?

Midwinters, Whitney Series etc-IOR B or C or whatever was mostly Choate 40's, with Apogee, Shenandoah and some others sprinkled in back in the day.

Attached Files

•  Transpac81 start.jpg   51.73K   80 downloads

[davidweil]

Here's "Hurrah" today. June 2011 Emerald Bay race (LBYC Catalina Island Series). Can't wait for the peanut gallery to weigh in with comments about our sail trim!


 Hurrah_SideView_Spin_01_061911.jpg   313.65K   155 downloads

 Hurrah_SternShot_061911.jpg   314.8K   135 downloads

[MJB]

Here's teaser of the Two Ton Cup.
Willawaw alongside Anita a S&S modified Two Ton along the lines of Rubin and Duva

Wow, am I happy to see this picture! I bought "Anita" last year!
She's a 45ft two tonner build in cold moulded mahogany at Burmester in Bremen Germany in 1976. First she was named “Anita”, later “Gudrun” and now “Carat”. Though I was told by the German seller (and everyone around at the wharf agreed) that she is an S&S design, I could not get this verified at S&S. (I mailed them the drawings). see the mail below...


The previous owner claimed it was a sistership – or a leasta design very similar - to “Rubin IV”. This was one of the series ofyachts that were all named Rubin owned by the famous German sailor Hans OttoSchumann with which he competed in the Admirals Cup, winning it in 1973. RubinIV was indeed a Sparkman & Stephens design, and built by Burmester. Notes on theoriginal rigging drawings of my yacht refer to it as “mini Rubin” (thelength of my yacht is 13,73 m /45ft compared to 14,94 m for Rubin IV)


In 1982 Anita was converted from a racer toa cruising yacht, and a lifting keel was fitted. Interestingly on the drawingsof this new keel there are notes comparing this new keel to Rubin V with regardto the relative points.



Duva (later named "Hamburg X") was also a S&S Design and built by Burmester. She is now chartered and recent pics can be seen on this site: http://www.sy-naja.de/schiff/ The line drawings of Duva that are visible on this site are very similar to Anita's indeed. I made a comparison of the linedrawings which is on the Flickr site below.


I would very much appreciate any ideas and comments. If Anita was not a S&S design, who's design could it it then be? (the drawings don't indicate any design studio) Or did Bruce Johnson, President and Chief Designer of Sparkman & Stephens miss out on something when he kindly mailed me that he could not confirm Anita was a S&S design? (copy of mail below)


Recent pictures of Anita including drawings can be viewed on Flickr here: http://www.flickr.co...s/65396168@N07/

Hoping for feedback, with regards from Netherlands (yacht is currently sationed in Muiden, Netherlands, and sailing IJsselmeer Lake and Dutch coastal waters)
Maarten Jan Brouwer




Mail from S&S dd 13jan 2011
Dear Maarten,

Thank you for your note. Here’swhat we find:Search for Dr. Palm -

Nothing found

Search under Burmeester -

Our files only show a 7.5-meter and a12-meter…



Search for Hans Otto Schumann -

Design 1825, yacht Rubin built byA&R. Characteristics LOA ?, LWL 37.00’, Beam ? I can find noplans other than a preliminary sail plan.

Design 2076, yacht Topaz. Characteristics: ½ tonner, LOA 30.00’, LWL 23.25’, Beam 9.50’, Draft 5.25’

Design 2102, year 1971, yacht RubinIV. Please note this design was used for Duva.

Design 2194, year 1973, it looks likethis was only a set of lines for a tank test model with the followingcharacteristics: LOA 44.25’, LWL 32.30’, Beam 12.29’, Draft 71.17’ - filemarked “cancelled”.
Design 2275 , year 1975, file marked “cancelled”. This was a 2-tonnerdesign for sure. Characteristics as follows: LOA 34.50’, LWL25.00’, Beam 10.86’, Draft 6.00’.

So what does this tell us? Notmuch.

I did find a note from Olin Stephensthat said Schumann really likes the lines at used for Dr. Becks boat. Inresearching beck’s boat I did find design 2254, dated 1976. Small scalestudy plans attached. It’s a 45’ LOA boat. But this boat was builtof aluminum by Palmer Johnson. That letter is attached. Please notea reference to a Mr. Kuhrt. I wonder if that was the owner of Burmeesterat the time in question?Bottom line: I can’t confirm thatyour boat is a Sparkman & Stephens design. The hull certainly hascharacteristics reminiscent of one of our designs. The deck looksdifferent than any I’ve seen in our files. That doesn’t necessarily meanit’s not one of ours. I’m sorry we couldn’t be more helpful.

Best Regards,

Bruce Johnson

President and Chief Designer

Sparkman & Stephens

529 Fifth Avenue - New York, NY 10017

Tel: 1 212 661 1240

[chorus1]

HI MJB,
Your Carat really looks like a G.Frers, one off of the First 46 from Jeanneau in France then, one racing was named "La poste".
Doesn't seem S&S usual design, but u have more information than us about ure boat and that's just my "feeling".

Here's teaser of the Two Ton Cup.
Willawaw alongside Anita a S&S modified Two Ton along the lines of Rubin and Duva

Wow, am I happy to see this picture! I bought "Anita" last year!
She's a 45ft two tonner build in cold moulded mahogany at Burmester in Bremen Germany in 1976. First she was named "Anita", later "Gudrun" and now "Carat". Though I was told by the German seller (and everyone around at the wharf agreed) that she is an S&S design, I could not get this verified at S&S. (I mailed them the drawings). see the mail below...

The previous owner claimed it was a sistership – or a leasta design very similar - to "Rubin IV". This was one of the series ofyachts that were all named Rubin owned by the famous German sailor Hans OttoSchumann with which he competed in the Admirals Cup, winning it in 1973. RubinIV was indeed a Sparkman & Stephens design, and built by Burmester. Notes on theoriginal rigging drawings of my yacht refer to it as "mini Rubin" (thelength of my yacht is 13,73 m /45ft compared to 14,94 m for Rubin IV)

In 1982 Anita was converted from a racer toa cruising yacht, and a lifting keel was fitted. Interestingly on the drawingsof this new keel there are notes comparing this new keel to Rubin V with regardto the relative points.


Duva (later named "Hamburg X") was also a S&S Design and built by Burmester. She is now chartered and recent pics can be seen on this site: http://www.sy-naja.de/schiff/ The line drawings of Duva that are visible on this site are very similar to Anita's indeed. I made a comparison of the linedrawings which is on the Flickr site below.

I would very much appreciate any ideas and comments. If Anita was not a S&S design, who's design could it it then be? (the drawings don't indicate any design studio) Or did Bruce Johnson, President and Chief Designer of Sparkman & Stephens miss out on something when he kindly mailed me that he could not confirm Anita was a S&S design? (copy of mail below)

Recent pictures of Anita including drawings can be viewed on Flickr here: http://www.flickr.co...s/65396168@N07/

Hoping for feedback, with regards from Netherlands (yacht is currently sationed in Muiden, Netherlands, and sailing IJsselmeer Lake and Dutch coastal waters)
Maarten Jan Brouwer


Mail from S&S dd 13jan 2011
Dear Maarten,

Thank you for your note. Here'swhat we find: Search for Dr. Palm -

Nothing found

Search under Burmeester -

Our files only show a 7.5-meter and a12-meter…



Search for Hans Otto Schumann -

Design 1825, yacht Rubin built byA&R. Characteristics LOA ?, LWL 37.00', Beam ? I can find noplans other than a preliminary sail plan.

Design 2076, yacht Topaz. Characteristics: ½ tonner, LOA 30.00', LWL 23.25', Beam 9.50', Draft 5.25'

Design 2102, year 1971, yacht RubinIV. Please note this design was used for Duva.

Design 2194, year 1973, it looks likethis was only a set of lines for a tank test model with the followingcharacteristics: LOA 44.25', LWL 32.30', Beam 12.29', Draft 71.17' - filemarked "cancelled".
Design 2275 , year 1975, file marked "cancelled". This was a 2-tonnerdesign for sure. Characteristics as follows: LOA 34.50', LWL25.00', Beam 10.86', Draft 6.00'.

So what does this tell us? Notmuch.

I did find a note from Olin Stephensthat said Schumann really likes the lines at used for Dr. Becks boat. Inresearching beck's boat I did find design 2254, dated 1976. Small scalestudy plans attached. It's a 45' LOA boat. But this boat was builtof aluminum by Palmer Johnson. That letter is attached. Please notea reference to a Mr. Kuhrt. I wonder if that was the owner of Burmeesterat the time in question? Bottom line: I can't confirm thatyour boat is a Sparkman & Stephens design. The hull certainly hascharacteristics reminiscent of one of our designs. The deck looksdifferent than any I've seen in our files. That doesn't necessarily meanit's not one of ours. I'm sorry we couldn't be more helpful.

Best Regards,

Bruce Johnson

President and Chief Designer

Sparkman & Stephens

529 Fifth Avenue - New York, NY 10017

Tel: 1 212 661 1240

[Burnsy]

Another wacky one: (2 posts)

That is one large rudder hanging off the back. I do like the centerline trough for the pole though.

Dehler DB1 has a similar centerline pole trough.

[fivestar]

Maarte, Ii posted the original photos and attached is also another one of Vineta which had a more cruising deck layout than Anita. If you look closely the deck layout of Anita is identical to the cross section drawing you show on your flicke page with two cockpits. I have some more if you wish them.
Both boats were built by Burmester along the lines of Duva and Rubin which were originally S&S designs before being tweaked by Schumann.
Perhaps Anita and Vineta were scaled down versions of the modified Duva/Rubin and the drawings came from whoever did the modifications. Burmester may be able to help you?
The owner of the original Vineta is still alive and resides in Hamburg, his name is Felix Scheder-Bieschin.
rgds - Michael

Here's teaser of the Two Ton Cup.
Willawaw alongside Anita a S&S modified Two Ton along the lines of Rubin and Duva

Wow, am I happy to see this picture! I bought "Anita" last year!
She's a 45ft two tonner build in cold moulded mahogany at Burmester in Bremen Germany in 1976. First she was named "Anita", later "Gudrun" and now "Carat". Though I was told by the German seller (and everyone around at the wharf agreed) that she is an S&S design, I could not get this verified at S&S. (I mailed them the drawings). see the mail below...


The previous owner claimed it was a sistership – or a leasta design very similar - to "Rubin IV". This was one of the series ofyachts that were all named Rubin owned by the famous German sailor Hans OttoSchumann with which he competed in the Admirals Cup, winning it in 1973. RubinIV was indeed a Sparkman & Stephens design, and built by Burmester. Notes on theoriginal rigging drawings of my yacht refer to it as "mini Rubin" (thelength of my yacht is 13,73 m /45ft compared to 14,94 m for Rubin IV)


In 1982 Anita was converted from a racer toa cruising yacht, and a lifting keel was fitted. Interestingly on the drawingsof this new keel there are notes comparing this new keel to Rubin V with regardto the relative points.



Duva (later named "Hamburg X") was also a S&S Design and built by Burmester. She is now chartered and recent pics can be seen on this site: http://www.sy-naja.de/schiff/ The line drawings of Duva that are visible on this site are very similar to Anita's indeed. I made a comparison of the linedrawings which is on the Flickr site below.


I would very much appreciate any ideas and comments. If Anita was not a S&S design, who's design could it it then be? (the drawings don't indicate any design studio) Or did Bruce Johnson, President and Chief Designer of Sparkman & Stephens miss out on something when he kindly mailed me that he could not confirm Anita was a S&S design? (copy of mail below)


Recent pictures of Anita including drawings can be viewed on Flickr here: http://www.flickr.co...s/65396168@N07/

Hoping for feedback, with regards from Netherlands (yacht is currently sationed in Muiden, Netherlands, and sailing IJsselmeer Lake and Dutch coastal waters)
Maarten Jan Brouwer




Mail from S&S dd 13jan 2011
Dear Maarten,

Thank you for your note. Here'swhat we find:Search for Dr. Palm -

Nothing found

Search under Burmeester -

Our files only show a 7.5-meter and a12-meter…



Search for Hans Otto Schumann -

Design 1825, yacht Rubin built byA&R. Characteristics LOA ?, LWL 37.00', Beam ? I can find noplans other than a preliminary sail plan.

Design 2076, yacht Topaz. Characteristics: ½ tonner, LOA 30.00', LWL 23.25', Beam 9.50', Draft 5.25'

Design 2102, year 1971, yacht RubinIV. Please note this design was used for Duva.

Design 2194, year 1973, it looks likethis was only a set of lines for a tank test model with the followingcharacteristics: LOA 44.25', LWL 32.30', Beam 12.29', Draft 71.17' - filemarked "cancelled".
Design 2275 , year 1975, file marked "cancelled". This was a 2-tonnerdesign for sure. Characteristics as follows: LOA 34.50', LWL25.00', Beam 10.86', Draft 6.00'.

So what does this tell us? Notmuch.

I did find a note from Olin Stephensthat said Schumann really likes the lines at used for Dr. Becks boat. Inresearching beck's boat I did find design 2254, dated 1976. Small scalestudy plans attached. It's a 45' LOA boat. But this boat was builtof aluminum by Palmer Johnson. That letter is attached. Please notea reference to a Mr. Kuhrt. I wonder if that was the owner of Burmeesterat the time in question?Bottom line: I can't confirm thatyour boat is a Sparkman & Stephens design. The hull certainly hascharacteristics reminiscent of one of our designs. The deck looksdifferent than any I've seen in our files. That doesn't necessarily meanit's not one of ours. I'm sorry we couldn't be more helpful.

Best Regards,

Bruce Johnson

President and Chief Designer

Sparkman & Stephens

529 Fifth Avenue - New York, NY 10017

Tel: 1 212 661 1240

Attached Files

•  IMG_0015.jpg   424.67K   92 downloads

[fivestar]

Should read the deck layout of Vineta is identical to the cross section drawing.
Michael

Maarte, Ii posted the original photos and attached is also another one of Vineta which had a more cruising deck layout than Anita. If you look closely the deck layout of Anita is identical to the cross section drawing you show on your flicke page with two cockpits. I have some more if you wish them.
Both boats were built by Burmester along the lines of Duva and Rubin which were originally S&S designs before being tweaked by Schumann.
Perhaps Anita and Vineta were scaled down versions of the modified Duva/Rubin and the drawings came from whoever did the modifications. Burmester may be able to help you?
The owner of the original Vineta is still alive and resides in Hamburg, his name is Felix Scheder-Bieschin.
rgds - Michael

Here's teaser of the Two Ton Cup.
Willawaw alongside Anita a S&S modified Two Ton along the lines of Rubin and Duva

Wow, am I happy to see this picture! I bought "Anita" last year!
She's a 45ft two tonner build in cold moulded mahogany at Burmester in Bremen Germany in 1976. First she was named "Anita", later "Gudrun" and now "Carat". Though I was told by the German seller (and everyone around at the wharf agreed) that she is an S&S design, I could not get this verified at S&S. (I mailed them the drawings). see the mail below...


The previous owner claimed it was a sistership – or a leasta design very similar - to "Rubin IV". This was one of the series ofyachts that were all named Rubin owned by the famous German sailor Hans OttoSchumann with which he competed in the Admirals Cup, winning it in 1973. RubinIV was indeed a Sparkman & Stephens design, and built by Burmester. Notes on theoriginal rigging drawings of my yacht refer to it as "mini Rubin" (thelength of my yacht is 13,73 m /45ft compared to 14,94 m for Rubin IV)


In 1982 Anita was converted from a racer toa cruising yacht, and a lifting keel was fitted. Interestingly on the drawingsof this new keel there are notes comparing this new keel to Rubin V with regardto the relative points.



Duva (later named "Hamburg X") was also a S&S Design and built by Burmester. She is now chartered and recent pics can be seen on this site: http://www.sy-naja.de/schiff/ The line drawings of Duva that are visible on this site are very similar to Anita's indeed. I made a comparison of the linedrawings which is on the Flickr site below.


I would very much appreciate any ideas and comments. If Anita was not a S&S design, who's design could it it then be? (the drawings don't indicate any design studio) Or did Bruce Johnson, President and Chief Designer of Sparkman & Stephens miss out on something when he kindly mailed me that he could not confirm Anita was a S&S design? (copy of mail below)


Recent pictures of Anita including drawings can be viewed on Flickr here: http://www.flickr.co...s/65396168@N07/

Hoping for feedback, with regards from Netherlands (yacht is currently sationed in Muiden, Netherlands, and sailing IJsselmeer Lake and Dutch coastal waters)
Maarten Jan Brouwer




Mail from S&S dd 13jan 2011
Dear Maarten,

Thank you for your note. Here'swhat we find:Search for Dr. Palm -

Nothing found

Search under Burmeester -

Our files only show a 7.5-meter and a12-meter…



Search for Hans Otto Schumann -

Design 1825, yacht Rubin built byA&R. Characteristics LOA ?, LWL 37.00', Beam ? I can find noplans other than a preliminary sail plan.

Design 2076, yacht Topaz. Characteristics: ½ tonner, LOA 30.00', LWL 23.25', Beam 9.50', Draft 5.25'

Design 2102, year 1971, yacht RubinIV. Please note this design was used for Duva.

Design 2194, year 1973, it looks likethis was only a set of lines for a tank test model with the followingcharacteristics: LOA 44.25', LWL 32.30', Beam 12.29', Draft 71.17' - filemarked "cancelled".
Design 2275 , year 1975, file marked "cancelled". This was a 2-tonnerdesign for sure. Characteristics as follows: LOA 34.50', LWL25.00', Beam 10.86', Draft 6.00'.

So what does this tell us? Notmuch.

I did find a note from Olin Stephensthat said Schumann really likes the lines at used for Dr. Becks boat. Inresearching beck's boat I did find design 2254, dated 1976. Small scalestudy plans attached. It's a 45' LOA boat. But this boat was builtof aluminum by Palmer Johnson. That letter is attached. Please notea reference to a Mr. Kuhrt. I wonder if that was the owner of Burmeesterat the time in question?Bottom line: I can't confirm thatyour boat is a Sparkman & Stephens design. The hull certainly hascharacteristics reminiscent of one of our designs. The deck looksdifferent than any I've seen in our files. That doesn't necessarily meanit's not one of ours. I'm sorry we couldn't be more helpful.

Best Regards,

Bruce Johnson

President and Chief Designer

Sparkman & Stephens

529 Fifth Avenue - New York, NY 10017

Tel: 1 212 661 1240

[sail1403]

So what does this tell us? Notmuch. I did find a note from Olin Stephensthat said Schumann really likes the lines at used for Dr. Becks boat. Inresearching beck's boat I did find design 2254, dated 1976. Small scalestudy plans attached. It's a 45' LOA boat. But this boat was builtof aluminum by Palmer Johnson. That letter is attached. Please notea reference to a Mr. Kuhrt. I wonder if that was the owner of Burmeesterat the time in question? Bottom line: I can't confirm thatyour boat is a Sparkman & Stephens design. The hull certainly hascharacteristics reminiscent of one of our designs. The deck looksdifferent than any I've seen in our files. That doesn't necessarily meanit's not one of ours. I'm sorry we couldn't be more helpful.

Best Regards,

Bruce Johnson

President and Chief Designer

Sparkman & Stephens

529 Fifth Avenue - New York, NY 10017

Tel: 1 212 661 1240

"Piranha"
I think Dr Becks Boat ended up just under 46'...beautiful S&S lines, 4 spreader rig, spaghetti noodle mast with runners, did a Mac Race on her... Delivered it to PJ in Wisconson with Dr Bob & saildry for her final run with the Dr...great trip except for the Barge


let me add it did have a weird deck layout...three primaries all linked together with a low sweeping boom...

[fivestar]

Maartens,

here are four more pictures taken at the 2 ton cup in Kiel in 1976.
the blue hull is Anita, the black vineta.
note the deck layout of Vineta
if i recall Anita sailed very few of the races.
Michael

Attached Files

•  Anita 1976_0002_1_2_1.jpg   95.46K   125 downloads
•  Vineta 1976_0022_1_1.jpg   68.2K   160 downloads
•  Anita 1976_0012_1_1.jpg   94.57K   171 downloads
•  Anita 1976_0010_1_1.jpg   85.49K   133 downloads

[MJB]

Dear Michael, so many thanks for your feedback and pictures! Geweldig! (Dutch)

Vineta looks indeed exactly as Anita. Apart from the hull lines, I clearly recognise the almost half circular deck at the stern accompanied by the rounded pullpit that is leaning inward.

As far as the deck layout, I have a second set of drawings - also dated 1976 the building year- that feature the one cockpit design as was eventually realised on Anita. (uploaded to the Flicker site) I now have confirmation through your pictures, but I already suspected that the one cockpit design was realised on Anita because the placement of the coffee grinder is still visible in my cockpit (it is now a prism). It looks like the same hull was built wit two cockpits as Vineta, and with one cockpit as Anita. I had also sent this one cockpit layout to S&S, because they had commented that the two cockpit deck lay out looks different than anything they have on file, but that didn't generate a final answer.

You may be right that someone "tweaked" the S&S Rubin and Duva designs into these smaller Two Ton versions. I am a bit puzzled that such tweaking would be allowed by S&S. And I am still on a quest to find the original Designer (tweaker)!

If you have any more pictures I'd be delighted!
Best regards from Holland,
Maarten Jan Brouwer

Maartens,

here are four more pictures taken at the 2 ton cup in Kiel in 1976.
the blue hull is Anita, the black vineta.
note the deck layout of Vineta
if i recall Anita sailed very few of the races.
Michael

[moody frog]

Maarten,

While most of my magazines of the day are half-lost in a secluded attic, I had copies off-hand of a short lived excellent french magazine. Checked, and there on the cover of the November'76 issue was a colour shot of "Anita'.

The article on the '76 Two Ton Cup in Kiel which they say was rather windy.
The article is signed by Svante DOMITZLAFF, so can be considered as well documented; Domitzlaff may be a source for you, as I think this racing family is still active.

It says: "In sixth place is the German yacht VINETA built and designed by Burmester, a smaller sister to the famous Admiral's cuppers "Rubin" and "Diva", a one-off yacht she is fitted-out for cruising. Hood sailmaker Ian Horobin was the only pro in her crew. With a good speed potential in light weather, she was one of the slowest boats in the fleet (nota: where the leaders were Peterson, Holland and C&C designs). Seventh "Tina I Punkt" a C&C 42 .......... (Eighth) Peter Norlin was sailing his latest one-off "Aïda" for Sweden....
Last, finally, was ANITA a sister-ship to VINETA, designed and built by Burmester exclusively for racing. She was totally empty inside and skippered by Hans BEILKEN (m.be a good source for you through Beilken Sails, Maarten) the German skipper so often associated to "Ydra".
After she broke her rudder in tight-reaching leg when lying one before last, she retired from the regatta.
ANITA was nowhere as fast as what could be expected, she was actually designed and built for the light airs of Lake Constance (Bodensee) where she will be now based."

On a side note, I remember visiting Burmester on their Hanseboot'75 booth to (unsuccessfully) try and sell them masts. They were not too well already and were trying to sell various S&S and Burmester designed yachts as well as a Farr 1/4 ton on a semi-custom basis.
I long had their leaflets in my business files (I visualize them as printed in Silver on a blue sheet ??) but ...... where are they now ?

Attached Files

•  Vineta.jpg   436.27K   72 downloads
•  Anita.jpg   305.37K   86 downloads
•  \'76 Two-Ton.jpg   104.23K   66 downloads

[Thisbe_8Can9]

The boat is still sailing and lives at the NYC in Toronto. The current owner knows the builder personally and has sailed on many of his designs and boats. Can't say a whole lot about the boats performance but the owner loves it.

A little boat called Spad ? comes to mind it was varnished wood about 27 feet . In '85 the big blow year it was in the Black River before the BYC Mac. It had a pair of outboard pipe steering platforms in the aft end over and outside a cigar shaped hull. She never made it to the finish neather did 75% of the flee that year I'm not sure of its design rule IOR or MORC. It looked ugly and wet, nice combo .

[fivestar]

I know how you feel. I have somewhere all issues of Seahorse from 1974 to 1995 and Sail 1972 to 1995. In which attic they are stored is the problem. I have a gut feeling they were left in the attic of a previous house I sold along with my Triang train set.

Maarten,

While most of my magazines of the day are half-lost in a secluded attic, I had copies off-hand of a short lived excellent french magazine. Checked, and there on the cover of the November'76 issue was a colour shot of "Anita'.

The article on the '76 Two Ton Cup in Kiel which they say was rather windy.
The article is signed by Svante DOMITZLAFF, so can be considered as well documented; Domitzlaff may be a source for you, as I think this racing family is still active.

It says: "In sixth place is the German yacht VINETA built and designed by Burmester, a smaller sister to the famous Admiral's cuppers "Rubin" and "Diva", a one-off yacht she is fitted-out for cruising. Hood sailmaker Ian Horobin was the only pro in her crew. With a good speed potential in light weather, she was one of the slowest boats in the fleet (nota: where the leaders were Peterson, Holland and C&C designs). Seventh "Tina I Punkt" a C&C 42 .......... (Eighth) Peter Norlin was sailing his latest one-off "Aïda" for Sweden....
Last, finally, was ANITA a sister-ship to VINETA, designed and built by Burmester exclusively for racing. She was totally empty inside and skippered by Hans BEILKEN (m.be a good source for you through Beilken Sails, Maarten) the German skipper so often associated to "Ydra".
After she broke her rudder in tight-reaching leg when lying one before last, she retired from the regatta.
ANITA was nowhere as fast as what could be expected, she was actually designed and built for the light airs of Lake Constance (Bodensee) where she will be now based."

On a side note, I remember visiting Burmester on their Hanseboot'75 booth to (unsuccessfully) try and sell them masts. They were not too well already and were trying to sell various S&S and Burmester designed yachts as well as a Farr 1/4 ton on a semi-custom basis.
I long had their leaflets in my business files (I visualize them as printed in Silver on a blue sheet ??) but ...... where are they now ?

[sledracr]

I know how you feel. I have somewhere all issues of Seahorse from 1974 to 1995 and Sail 1972 to 1995. In which attic they are stored is the problem. I have a gut feeling they were left in the attic of a previous house I sold along with my Triang train set.

I made the mistake, years ago, of donating 20 years worth of sailing magazines to the yacht-club library. Including every issue of [what is now] "Sailing World", back to the day (1971?) when it was "One Design" magazine (and actually had racing content in it).

And then I moved 1500 miles away from that club.

[moody frog]

I know how you feel. I have somewhere all issues of Seahorse from 1974 to 1995 and Sail 1972 to 1995. In which attic they are stored is the problem. I have a gut feeling they were left in the attic of a previous house I sold along with my Triang train set.

I made the mistake, years ago, of donating 20 years worth of sailing magazines to the yacht-club library. Including every issue of [what is now] "Sailing World", back to the day (1971?) when it was "One Design" magazine (and actually had racing content in it).

And then I moved 1500 miles away from that club.

Have no regret, having 25 + years of magazines in big boxes in an attic together with archive boxes of 3 companies is ....ultimately useless, so long it takes to get what you are looking for

[kinardly]

I sail an old IOR boat - a 1980 Choate 40 - - -

Which one?

"Hurrah." It's been around SoCal for a long time - - - it had a wierd name when we bought it so we changed it back to "Hurrah" -

Awesome! I know Hurrah well, raced against it a ton "back in the day". I was one of the original crew of "Spirit" (hull #1), and spent a bunch of time on Audacious, BigWig and others. There's one up here (Seattle area) on the hard, don't know which one it is but it looks to be in good shape. Congrats, and enjoy the boat...it's a good one!

Wasn't Choate 40 hull 1 the plug for Dennis' mold? I think Dennis finished it and sold it to Alan Brown (maybe wrong first name) who campaigned it for several years. Whatever his first name he was a very nice guy. I was kidding myself that I could afford to order a sistership and introduced myself to him one day at the conclusion of a Marina del Rey to SD race. He immediately took my wife and me down to the dock and went over every detail of the boat and why he loved it. We loved it too and would still agree; one of the prettiest profiles on the water. Dennis had that coach roof line down to a science.

[sledracr]

I was one of the original crew of "Spirit" (hull #1),

Wasn't Choate 40 hull 1 the plug for Dennis' mold? I think Dennis finished it and sold it to Alan Brown (maybe wrong first name) who campaigned it for several years. Whatever his first name he was a very nice guy. I was kidding myself that I could afford to order a sistership and introduced myself to him one day at the conclusion of a Marina del Rey to SD race.

Dunno about Spirit being the plug. I do know that Spirit had a balsa-core deck and balsa-core in large sections of the hull, where most (all?) of the others had Divinycell or other synthetic material for the core.

And, yeah, Allen was (is) a wonderful guy. Friendly, painfully polite, loyal, always up for a drama-free practical joke, and... a fiercely-competitive student of the game, which made for a really interesting combination of traits. He went, for example, from being curious about why the wind always clocks in the afternoon off Newport Beach, to teaching weather classes at the local college, just because he'd gotten so intrigued about the "why" of different wind patterns.

[fivestar]

Dear Marteen,

any chance you could put on Flicke the top and bottom of the following drawing,

"bouwtek origineel dwarsdoorsneel"

As regards the tweaker, I can only suggest you contact Felix Scheder-Bieschin, who owned Vineta. As far as I am aware he still sails and is Chairman of MACShip a Hamburg based shipping line.

regards - Michael

Dear Michael, so many thanks for your feedback and pictures! Geweldig! (Dutch)

Vineta looks indeed exactly as Anita. Apart from the hull lines, I clearly recognise the almost half circular deck at the stern accompanied by the rounded pullpit that is leaning inward.

As far as the deck layout, I have a second set of drawings - also dated 1976 the building year- that feature the one cockpit design as was eventually realised on Anita. (uploaded to the Flicker site) I now have confirmation through your pictures, but I already suspected that the one cockpit design was realised on Anita because the placement of the coffee grinder is still visible in my cockpit (it is now a prism). It looks like the same hull was built wit two cockpits as Vineta, and with one cockpit as Anita. I had also sent this one cockpit layout to S&S, because they had commented that the two cockpit deck lay out looks different than anything they have on file, but that didn't generate a final answer.

You may be right that someone "tweaked" the S&S Rubin and Duva designs into these smaller Two Ton versions. I am a bit puzzled that such tweaking would be allowed by S&S. And I am still on a quest to find the original Designer (tweaker)!

If you have any more pictures I'd be delighted!
Best regards from Holland,
Maarten Jan Brouwer

Maartens,

here are four more pictures taken at the 2 ton cup in Kiel in 1976.
the blue hull is Anita, the black vineta.
note the deck layout of Vineta
if i recall Anita sailed very few of the races.
Michael

[P_Wop]

Duva. Well, there's memories for you. I did Cowes Week 1976 on the boat, with her wonderful owner Hans-Hermann (Peter) Lubinus from Kiel.

Lovely flush-decked pale blue S&S 51, a bullet-proof boat upwind in a blow. I particularly remember the cockpit, which was unusually deep with a grinder pedestal in the middle. At that time RORC/IOR rules stressed the importance of "deep, safe cockpits." This one was seriously deep - hip-high to the deck coaming. There was a false slatted teak floor that went in for inshore races to raise the floor a foot or so and make it a bit more usable.

I'm sure Beken will have photos of her in Cowes '76. Sailnumber G-2033 if you want to search. Non-Admiral's Cup year of course.

[MJB]

Thank you sooo much! I am delighted with these pictures, as well as info!

And don't you worry about being effective at finding stuff in your attics, your very successful to my standards!

It looks like you have provided me with the answer: Burmester not only building, but also designing the boat. I'll dig further in this option with all the leads I got from all kind experts on this forum, and will report back with my findings. But first I am going on a 2 week sailing trip on Anita along the Dutch and Belgian coast....

Maarten

Maarten,

While most of my magazines of the day are half-lost in a secluded attic, I had copies off-hand of a short lived excellent french magazine. Checked, and there on the cover of the November'76 issue was a colour shot of "Anita'.

The article on the '76 Two Ton Cup in Kiel which they say was rather windy.
The article is signed by Svante DOMITZLAFF, so can be considered as well documented; Domitzlaff may be a source for you, as I think this racing family is still active.

It says: "In sixth place is the German yacht VINETA built and designed by Burmester, a smaller sister to the famous Admiral's cuppers "Rubin" and "Diva", a one-off yacht she is fitted-out for cruising. Hood sailmaker Ian Horobin was the only pro in her crew. With a good speed potential in light weather, she was one of the slowest boats in the fleet (nota: where the leaders were Peterson, Holland and C&C designs). Seventh "Tina I Punkt" a C&C 42 .......... (Eighth) Peter Norlin was sailing his latest one-off "Aïda" for Sweden....
Last, finally, was ANITA a sister-ship to VINETA, designed and built by Burmester exclusively for racing. She was totally empty inside and skippered by Hans BEILKEN (m.be a good source for you through Beilken Sails, Maarten) the German skipper so often associated to "Ydra".
After she broke her rudder in tight-reaching leg when lying one before last, she retired from the regatta.
ANITA was nowhere as fast as what could be expected, she was actually designed and built for the light airs of Lake Constance (Bodensee) where she will be now based."

On a side note, I remember visiting Burmester on their Hanseboot'75 booth to (unsuccessfully) try and sell them masts. They were not too well already and were trying to sell various S&S and Burmester designed yachts as well as a Farr 1/4 ton on a semi-custom basis.
I long had their leaflets in my business files (I visualize them as printed in Silver on a blue sheet ??) but ...... where are they now ?

Thank you sooo much! I am delighted with these pictures, as well as info!

And don't you worry about being effective at finding stuff in your attics, your very successful to my standards!

It looks like you have provided me with the answer: Burmester not only building, but also designing the boat. I'll dig further in this option with all the leads I got from all kind experts on this forum, and will report back with my findings. But first I am going on a 2 week sailing trip on Anita along the Dutch and Belgian coast....

Maarten

Maarten,

While most of my magazines of the day are half-lost in a secluded attic, I had copies off-hand of a short lived excellent french magazine. Checked, and there on the cover of the November'76 issue was a colour shot of "Anita'.

The article on the '76 Two Ton Cup in Kiel which they say was rather windy.
The article is signed by Svante DOMITZLAFF, so can be considered as well documented; Domitzlaff may be a source for you, as I think this racing family is still active.

It says: "In sixth place is the German yacht VINETA built and designed by Burmester, a smaller sister to the famous Admiral's cuppers "Rubin" and "Diva", a one-off yacht she is fitted-out for cruising. Hood sailmaker Ian Horobin was the only pro in her crew. With a good speed potential in light weather, she was one of the slowest boats in the fleet (nota: where the leaders were Peterson, Holland and C&C designs). Seventh "Tina I Punkt" a C&C 42 .......... (Eighth) Peter Norlin was sailing his latest one-off "Aïda" for Sweden....
Last, finally, was ANITA a sister-ship to VINETA, designed and built by Burmester exclusively for racing. She was totally empty inside and skippered by Hans BEILKEN (m.be a good source for you through Beilken Sails, Maarten) the German skipper so often associated to "Ydra".
After she broke her rudder in tight-reaching leg when lying one before last, she retired from the regatta.
ANITA was nowhere as fast as what could be expected, she was actually designed and built for the light airs of Lake Constance (Bodensee) where she will be now based."

On a side note, I remember visiting Burmester on their Hanseboot'75 booth to (unsuccessfully) try and sell them masts. They were not too well already and were trying to sell various S&S and Burmester designed yachts as well as a Farr 1/4 ton on a semi-custom basis.
I long had their leaflets in my business files (I visualize them as printed in Silver on a blue sheet ??) but ...... where are they now ?

[MJB]

Done! Here: http://www.flickr.co...s/65396168@N07/
And thanks again!
[quote name='fivestar' timestamp='1311210789' post='3338924']
Dear Marteen,

any chance you could put on Flicke the top and bottom of the following drawing,

"bouwtek origineel dwarsdoorsneel"

As regards the tweaker, I can only suggest you contact Felix Scheder-Bieschin, who owned Vineta. As far as I am aware he still sails and is Chairman of MACShip a Hamburg based shipping line.

regards - Michael

[fivestar]

thanks marteen.
from what i recall the Duva/rubin designs came after over 40 tanks test models so maybe they were no longer considered S&S designs when the two tonners were built.

regards - michael

[blackjenner]

Frumious:
Looks like an FD35 to me. Some people call them Baba 35's.

Yeah, my paperwork on my Baba 35 calls it a Flying Dutchman 35.

It looks like a non-pilothouse version. What throws me off though is the fact that the teak caprails and sides are *painted*? White or some off white?

This is my pilot house version.

[davidweil]

This is my pilot house version.

Nice boat, but man that really is one "disturbed IOR design!" (what was this thread about again?)

[blackjenner]

This is my pilot house version.

Nice boat, but man that really is one "disturbed IOR design!" (what was this thread about again?)

The thread was about IOR designs, wherein someone mentioned a boat behind an IOR design in a picture. It's called a tangent in the thread. Sorry to confuse you.

This is my pilot house version.

Nice boat, but man that really is one "disturbed IOR design!" (what was this thread about again?)

Thanks. I like the boat a lot.

What was the thread about, originally? The thread was about IOR designs, wherein someone mentioned a boat behind an IOR design in a picture. It's called a tangent in the thread. Sorry to confuse you.

[davidweil]

It's called a tangent in the thread. Sorry to confuse you.

Yes I know. Just giving you a little grief. That's my job.

[MJB]

Duva. Well, there's memories for you. I did Cowes Week 1976 on the boat, with her wonderful owner Hans-Hermann (Peter) Lubinus from Kiel.

Lovely flush-decked pale blue S&S 51, a bullet-proof boat upwind in a blow. I particularly remember the cockpit, which was unusually deep with a grinder pedestal in the middle. At that time RORC/IOR rules stressed the importance of "deep, safe cockpits." This one was seriously deep - hip-high to the deck coaming. There was a false slatted teak floor that went in for inshore races to raise the floor a foot or so and make it a bit more usable.

I'm sure Beken will have photos of her in Cowes '76. Sailnumber G-2033 if you want to search. Non-Admiral's Cup year of course




Below a few old pics of Duva

Attached Files

•  2102-C2 Duva photos.jpg   407.61K   223 downloads

[MJB]

thanks marteen.
from what i recall the Duva/rubin designs came after over 40 tanks test models so maybe they were no longer considered S&S designs when the two tonners were built.

regards - michael



Here's a nice brochure of Rubin that the people of S&S sent me:

Attached Files

•  brochure Rubin.pdf   767.32K   63 downloads

[Stumblingthunder]

The boat that I crewed on in 1986 SORC was seriously disturbed. It was Picante, a Soverel 33 that had a lot of bumps and hollows built in to what was originally a fair hull and the motor was in the bow. It sailed like we had a permanent body on the bow and was real squirrelly off the wind if the bowman visits adventureland. Nobody was allowed to go forward to use the head, had to use the lowest step on the sugarscoop transom with a harness for your business. When you were done, you did a quick dip for the saltwater bidet effect.

A number of IOR boats had flats between the keel and the bow knuckle which would pound in a seaway and have strange bumps and bustles depending on the version of the rule in the stern. It was tough for those water molecules to follow smoothly back there and not have a lot of turbulence around the upper part of the rudder, reducing steering authority when powered up.

I was involved with Regardless (Nelson-Marek 40')program to de-IOR'ize the boat by reshaping the bow with additional foam glassed on to add volume and to fair out the bumps and hollows in the back. That did wonders to improve the speed and handling of the boat.

[AlR]

I know how you feel. I have somewhere all issues of Seahorse from 1974 to 1995 and Sail 1972 to 1995. In which attic they are stored is the problem. I have a gut feeling they were left in the attic of a previous house I sold along with my Triang train set.

I made the mistake, years ago, of donating 20 years worth of sailing magazines to the yacht-club library. Including every issue of [what is now] "Sailing World", back to the day (1971?) when it was "One Design" magazine (and actually had racing content in it).

And then I moved 1500 miles away from that club.

What club?

[Tanton Y_M]

One Tonner Special Edition.  Special Edition.jpg   92.8K   121 downloads

[slip knot]

This one is two slips down from me, I'd call it disturbed.  DSC05964-2.JPG   145.39K   113 downloads  DSC05966-2.JPG   165.46K   124 downloads

[chorus1]

She needs plastic surgery for cellulite


!

This one is two slips down from me, I'd call it disturbed.  DSC05964-2.JPG   145.39K   113 downloads  DSC05966-2.JPG   165.46K   124 downloads

[GybeSet®]

1/? tonner

guess.

Attached Files

•  Warbird.gif   25.51K   48 downloads

[Bob Perry]

Stephen Jones quarter tonner.

[GybeSet®]

well it's a quarter, not Jones

[GybeSet®]

1/?

Attached Files

•  tonner.gif   40.79K   51 downloads

[Bob Perry]

Gybe:
I remember that boat like it was yesterday. Are you certain it's not Jones? Now I need to know.
It says "Trower" on the drawing. I don't remember that name at all.

[Steam Flyer]

Gybe:
I remember that boat like it was yesterday. Are you certain it's not Jones? Now I need to know.
It says "Trower" on the drawing. I don't remember that name at all.

Can't say why I rememebr this
prob'ly killed off all adjacent brain cells, so the one that contains this particular memory doesn't have any competition





DSK

[fivestar]

Is this the same yacht. WARBIRD forget the designer.

1/? tonner

guess.

Attached Files

•  1170950388_Warbird%2001.jpg   23.71K   459 downloads

[P_Wop]

Is this the same yacht. WARBIRD forget the designer.

1/? tonner

guess.

1/4 tonner Warbird on her mooring during Cowes Week. 1973 or 74 I think. Design was by Gavin (?) Potter. Raced against her with Chris Ratsey on one of the first David Thomas quarters, Deep Purple.

Known locally as "The Chocolate Box" - built out of unbelievably thin marine ply, with pink painted areas on the foredeck where you could walk without falling through it. Companionway had a big sign: "Go down steps one at a time. Do NOT jump" - for the obvious reason.

Sailed with some success by a bunch of University kids, but only when the breeze was between 7 and 12 knots. Her tiny rig made her stop in the light, and the wings ploughed into the drink when it blew.

Amazing that a photo has survived. The boat certainly hasn't.

[12 metre]

Someone mentioned the Jones 1/4 tonner Odd Job. I found some more recent photos of her. She has been obviously restored and has done fairly well at recent 1/4 ton events over in the UK. I believe her keel has been changed as has the rig, but the hull remains the same as when she was built back in 1972 or 1973. Very unusual bow and stern sections, at least at the time.

I also found a few recent photos of a Jones 1/2 tonner of about the same vintage. The stern shape was very similar to the NZ boats and she had a fractional rig as well, although the Jones boats were heavier. This particular one was likely one of the Super Nova derivatives. His Hustler 32 design, Smokey Bear finished 2nd at the 78 Worlds, although these were a bit more conventional looking designs.

Going back to the Cascade thing, the main reason the boat was successful was due to the rating loophole Milgram discovered. The IOR did not know how to handle cat rigged boats, or at least, I suppose no one anticipated that a cat rig boat would race IOR. Her RSAT was miniscule, although her actual total area with mizzen genoa was much much greater. Look at her rating certificate - she rated 22 ft! A 37 footer rating the same as 30 footers.

Someone also previously asked about why dagger board boats were popular. Yes, wetted surface can be reduced downwind and more efficient foils can be designed, but if I recall correctly, the main reason is that there was a loophole that allowed board boats to have about 2-3 feet more draft. So, while a One Ton may have had a rated draft of say 6 feet, her actual draft, board down, could be 8 feet or more. Once that loophole was closed, the board boats disappeared.

 show_image15.jpg   79.08K   152 downloads  show_image23.jpg   88.01K   181 downloads  show_image22.jpg   81.61K   192 downloads  show_image2.jpg   89.43K   213 downloads  50172.JPG   60.08K   221 downloads  50175.JPG   128.87K   154 downloads

[12 metre]

Thought I would also weigh in on the Rioutous Assembly discussion. I also have a few photos of her taken back in the day. Putting aside the build quality, I think there were other issues beyond Whiting's control at the time. Remember that this was a tumultuous time period in the IOR when rule changes were happening fairly rapidly. I think that shortly before the 78 Worlds, some rule changes came in and I tend to remember reading that Assembly had to sail with a reef in the main for the series. This would also explain the bow down trim. She was quite similar to the other successful Whiting designs of the era. While his designs had a lot of folds and creases, this also allowed his boats to have longer rated lengths, more sail area, and usually less displacement than the other NZ boats of the era. Yes, not the shape of speed, but good at fooling the rule into thinking she is slower than she really is.

As to why Rioutous Assembly wasn't successful afterwards? She had some success locally and then had a fire which burned off her deck. I remember seeing her burned out hulk in a shop in the early 80's. Last I saw her, she was in someones yard. Someone figured to turn it into a cruiser I suppose. Got rid of the board and put some stubby little keel on her.

I'll add the lines drawing of Whiting's 1/2 tonner Newspaper Taxi in a subsequent post. You will see the similarity to Rioutous Assembly.

 451KAssembly.JPG   451.2K   112 downloads  Assembely%20top.JPG   384.01K   125 downloads

[12 metre]

Here is another photo of Riotous Assembly under sail, plus the lines for Newspaper Taxi.

 447K%20Assembely%20sailing.JPG   447.38K   124 downloads  NewsTaxi.jpg   313.14K   120 downloads

[Laser1]

Someone mentioned the Jones 1/4 tonner Odd Job. Very unusual bow and stern sections, at least at the time.
I also found a few recent photos of a Jones 1/2 tonner of about the same vintage.

Somewhere in the 80's I sailed a couple of times on board 'Tumblehome', owned by Jock Smith at the time, on the East Coast of the UK. (Levington/Suffolk Yacht Harbour) I'm sure she was a 32'ish Jones with some very radical hull shapes.

Any UK east coast Anarchists know if she's still around?

[DickDastardly]

Sailed a season in 83 on a Jones 1 tonner out of Hamble called Rakau - timber boat, pretty quick but I don't recall the hull form being extreme. Wonder if it's still around?

[Bob Perry]

You have to hand it to the IOR. It was seldom a boring rule. On any given day there were some out and out pigs on the starting line. It made it more fun.

[GybeSet®]

Gybe:
I remember that boat like it was yesterday. Are you certain it's not Jones? Now I need to know.
It says "Trower" on the drawing. I don't remember that name at all.

yeah Warbird - Gordon Trower, good photo there ! any more

ref: Gray Baigents "New Light Brigade" account of when the tail started wagging the dog, that being a small remote islands designers shook the world of yacht design

also look for the mid-1950s canter.

have a good read Bob, heres to ya

below is Warbirds unbuilt predecessor Mach1 which the ORC were disinclined to allow citing 'rule intent'

Attached Files

•  mach 1 tonner.gif   40.79K   37 downloads

[Bob Perry]

Gybe:
Thanks for that read. I'll print it out and take my time with it.

[tuf-luf]

Gybe:
I remember that boat like it was yesterday. Are you certain it's not Jones? Now I need to know.
It says "Trower" on the drawing. I don't remember that name at all.

Can't say why I rememebr this
prob'ly killed off all adjacent brain cells, so the one that contains this particular memory doesn't have any competition





DSK

Great album. Really great album.

[Bob Perry]

They are having a half off sale at my favorite used vinyl store here so I think I'll see if I can find a copy.

[fivestar]

Hope you had a good cruise. Any further developments on the Anita/Vineta design?

Thank you sooo much! I am delighted with these pictures, as well as info!

And don't you worry about being effective at finding stuff in your attics, your very successful to my standards!

It looks like you have provided me with the answer: Burmester not only building, but also designing the boat. I'll dig further in this option with all the leads I got from all kind experts on this forum, and will report back with my findings. But first I am going on a 2 week sailing trip on Anita along the Dutch and Belgian coast....

Maarten

Maarten,

While most of my magazines of the day are half-lost in a secluded attic, I had copies off-hand of a short lived excellent french magazine. Checked, and there on the cover of the November'76 issue was a colour shot of "Anita'.

The article on the '76 Two Ton Cup in Kiel which they say was rather windy.
The article is signed by Svante DOMITZLAFF, so can be considered as well documented; Domitzlaff may be a source for you, as I think this racing family is still active.

It says: "In sixth place is the German yacht VINETA built and designed by Burmester, a smaller sister to the famous Admiral's cuppers "Rubin" and "Diva", a one-off yacht she is fitted-out for cruising. Hood sailmaker Ian Horobin was the only pro in her crew. With a good speed potential in light weather, she was one of the slowest boats in the fleet (nota: where the leaders were Peterson, Holland and C&C designs). Seventh "Tina I Punkt" a C&C 42 .......... (Eighth) Peter Norlin was sailing his latest one-off "Aïda" for Sweden....
Last, finally, was ANITA a sister-ship to VINETA, designed and built by Burmester exclusively for racing. She was totally empty inside and skippered by Hans BEILKEN (m.be a good source for you through Beilken Sails, Maarten) the German skipper so often associated to "Ydra".
After she broke her rudder in tight-reaching leg when lying one before last, she retired from the regatta.
ANITA was nowhere as fast as what could be expected, she was actually designed and built for the light airs of Lake Constance (Bodensee) where she will be now based."

On a side note, I remember visiting Burmester on their Hanseboot'75 booth to (unsuccessfully) try and sell them masts. They were not too well already and were trying to sell various S&S and Burmester designed yachts as well as a Farr 1/4 ton on a semi-custom basis.
I long had their leaflets in my business files (I visualize them as printed in Silver on a blue sheet ??) but ...... where are they now ?

Thank you sooo much! I am delighted with these pictures, as well as info!

And don't you worry about being effective at finding stuff in your attics, your very successful to my standards!

It looks like you have provided me with the answer: Burmester not only building, but also designing the boat. I'll dig further in this option with all the leads I got from all kind experts on this forum, and will report back with my findings. But first I am going on a 2 week sailing trip on Anita along the Dutch and Belgian coast....

Maarten

Maarten,

While most of my magazines of the day are half-lost in a secluded attic, I had copies off-hand of a short lived excellent french magazine. Checked, and there on the cover of the November'76 issue was a colour shot of "Anita'.

The article on the '76 Two Ton Cup in Kiel which they say was rather windy.
The article is signed by Svante DOMITZLAFF, so can be considered as well documented; Domitzlaff may be a source for you, as I think this racing family is still active.

It says: "In sixth place is the German yacht VINETA built and designed by Burmester, a smaller sister to the famous Admiral's cuppers "Rubin" and "Diva", a one-off yacht she is fitted-out for cruising. Hood sailmaker Ian Horobin was the only pro in her crew. With a good speed potential in light weather, she was one of the slowest boats in the fleet (nota: where the leaders were Peterson, Holland and C&C designs). Seventh "Tina I Punkt" a C&C 42 .......... (Eighth) Peter Norlin was sailing his latest one-off "Aïda" for Sweden....
Last, finally, was ANITA a sister-ship to VINETA, designed and built by Burmester exclusively for racing. She was totally empty inside and skippered by Hans BEILKEN (m.be a good source for you through Beilken Sails, Maarten) the German skipper so often associated to "Ydra".
After she broke her rudder in tight-reaching leg when lying one before last, she retired from the regatta.
ANITA was nowhere as fast as what could be expected, she was actually designed and built for the light airs of Lake Constance (Bodensee) where she will be now based."

On a side note, I remember visiting Burmester on their Hanseboot'75 booth to (unsuccessfully) try and sell them masts. They were not too well already and were trying to sell various S&S and Burmester designed yachts as well as a Farr 1/4 ton on a semi-custom basis.
I long had their leaflets in my business files (I visualize them as printed in Silver on a blue sheet ??) but ...... where are they now ?

[tadts]

Interesting to see a couple of pictures there of Casanova - can you recall where she is for sale.

I believe Casanova was the second of 'Supernova 31' boats built, I think in Poole, and the first with the conventional coachroof rather than the heavily cambered flush deck of Supernova herself. I think Supernova was 1974 with maybe Casanova a year later, both originally with MH rigs though Supernova is now 3/4. Smiffy, the best known of the 4 was built for the Half Ton Cup in Poole in 1978, she had a different (better looking!) transom but retained the Jones clipper bow and was 3/4 rig as built. The final boat Demolition was built for the 1981 HTC when it returned to Poole; she had the clipper bow filled in (though you could still see the original profile!) due to changes in the rule, I think the transom was the same as Smiffy but the rig was a more complex 3/4 with double spreaders & diamonds.

For a while in the late '80s all 4 were in Poole and I used to race against them regularly, I'll try and dig out some pictures and post them. Smiffy and Supernova are now on the E Coast with Smiffy active on the classic Half Ton scene, Demolition also very active based in Cornwall, so where is Casanova? She looks to be in good order, last time I saw her she was in the front garden of a house in Poole.

Someone mentioned the Jones 1/4 tonner Odd Job. I found some more recent photos of her. She has been obviously restored and has done fairly well at recent 1/4 ton events over in the UK. I believe her keel has been changed as has the rig, but the hull remains the same as when she was built back in 1972 or 1973. Very unusual bow and stern sections, at least at the time.

I also found a few recent photos of a Jones 1/2 tonner of about the same vintage. The stern shape was very similar to the NZ boats and she had a fractional rig as well, although the Jones boats were heavier. This particular one was likely one of the Super Nova derivatives. His Hustler 32 design, Smokey Bear finished 2nd at the 78 Worlds, although these were a bit more conventional looking designs.

Going back to the Cascade thing, the main reason the boat was successful was due to the rating loophole Milgram discovered. The IOR did not know how to handle cat rigged boats, or at least, I suppose no one anticipated that a cat rig boat would race IOR. Her RSAT was miniscule, although her actual total area with mizzen genoa was much much greater. Look at her rating certificate - she rated 22 ft! A 37 footer rating the same as 30 footers.

Someone also previously asked about why dagger board boats were popular. Yes, wetted surface can be reduced downwind and more efficient foils can be designed, but if I recall correctly, the main reason is that there was a loophole that allowed board boats to have about 2-3 feet more draft. So, while a One Ton may have had a rated draft of say 6 feet, her actual draft, board down, could be 8 feet or more. Once that loophole was closed, the board boats disappeared.

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[chorus1]

Here is a photo (unique !) of Paul in La rochelle's Week .
I learned about the mast which was a conical section, just workin as a fishing rod .
Michel Joubert said about Paul : "i drew and built with my money the boat which done historicaly the less miles sailing
Quicly, M.joubert took her behind its Cadillac, without her keel and no trailor !! to the municipal dump.

From my side the most disturbed (But serious) design in Europe was "Paul".
Paul was a one tonner IOR Joubert NIvelt design 80's years ? or before, issued from an extended (by the middle) half tonner, with a cat main sail.
Rudder was 0.5 meter back off stern.
They never succeed to control the huge mainsail, and the boat was fast just only crosswind....
The boat never race out of La Rochelle France West Atlantic as far as i knew, if anyone got photos or historic, ure wellcome

Attached Files

•  Paul.jpg   155.47K   247 downloads

[atefooterz]

So does anyoneknow if Supernova left the Medway & is in new ownership & bucks being pumped in ?

[chorus1]

Hey Moody !

Some picts of Paul and French Jean Sans comments

ps : my thread about Paul on my site has been updated !

Attached Files

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•  2011-12-23_121841.pdf   105.25K   69 downloads

[moody frog]

Hey Moody !

Some picts of Paul and French Jean Sans comments

ps : my thread about Paul on my site has been updated !

Thank you Chorus !

If I remember well -but sometimes my memory fails - the mast tube was coming from Petitjean in Troyes !!
In any case and that's where I could mix-up things, all french yacht designers, that year, were looking at the just launched "Freedom 40" and obviously looking at Petitjean as a potential supplier.

These were the heydays of Needlespar (David Hunt) and Z-spars (Michel Gilbert) producing tapered round-section tubes by spinning (fluo-tournage), Petitjean were using the same process on larger tubes (longer lathes) so ..... (but the alloy grade might well have been pretty different).

This makes me rembember that inspired by the cat-sloop rating advantage, one of my friends had toyed with the idea of down-rating a '76 Holland 3/4 ton as a 1/2 ton for his favorite Aurore/Figaro race, one of them having already been rigged as a fractional sloop with a Needlespar mast, "Mezzanine" IIRC. It never happened.

[Spyder]

And the rest. This one was for sale recently as a project. Keels had been removed I think.

what a nice memory. I got laid in the starboard pilot berth when using it as a home base for the MORC Internationals sometime in the early 80"s. Quite the cruiser then.

[Out law]

And the rest. This one was for sale recently as a project. Keels had been removed I think.

what a nice memory. I got laid in the starboard pilot berth when using it as a home base for the MORC Internationals sometime in the early 80"s. Quite the cruiser then.

[Out law]

Anyone comment on what the purpose of the small skeg/bustle in front of some spade IOR rudders was for?
Probably only a couple of inches square in x- section....tapered hydrodynamically into the hull forward of rudders....

[chorus1]

Before we got Carbon, skeg was used to re inforce the attachement of the rudder axe. on the hull. In addition skeg conducted water on it.

Anyone comment on what the purpose of the small skeg/bustle in front of some spade IOR rudders was for?
Probably only a couple of inches square in x- section....tapered hydrodynamically into the hull forward of rudders....

[P_Wop]

Anyone comment on what the purpose of the small skeg/bustle in front of some spade IOR rudders was for?
Probably only a couple of inches square in x- section....tapered hydrodynamically into the hull forward of rudders....

It was primarily due to the way the IOR measured the aft underbody. There were two principal measurement points, the AGS (Aft Girth Station) and the AIGS (Aft Inner Girth Station). Getting these two closer together was advantageous for the rating, but created the familiar horrible IOR distortions underwater. This was limited in IIIa by an AGS (Aft Girth Slope) factor, but it was all really ugly. More design man-hours went into this part of the beast than almost anywhere else, really to make the rule think the rated waterline length was something other than the actual one.

For a variety of reasons, the best place to put the rudder was just aft of this heinous mess, so the tiny skeg was a way of feeding waterflow to the rudder a bit more easily. The skeglet was also included in the measurement scheme in some very peculiar ways, but was generally considered a good idea.

Bob and others, please correct my exercises (again) if you think this is a load of bollocks.

[12 metre]

Anyone comment on what the purpose of the small skeg/bustle in front of some spade IOR rudders was for?
Probably only a couple of inches square in x- section....tapered hydrodynamically into the hull forward of rudders....

It was primarily due to the way the IOR measured the aft underbody. There were two principal measurement points, the AGS (Aft Girth Station) and the AIGS (Aft Inner Girth Station). Getting these two closer together was advantageous for the rating, but created the familiar horrible IOR distortions underwater. This was limited in IIIa by an AGS (Aft Girth Slope) factor, but it was all really ugly. More design man-hours went into this part of the beast than almost anywhere else, really to make the rule think the rated waterline length was something other than the actual one.

For a variety of reasons, the best place to put the rudder was just aft of this heinous mess, so the tiny skeg was a way of feeding waterflow to the rudder a bit more easily. The skeglet was also included in the measurement scheme in some very peculiar ways, but was generally considered a good idea.

Bob and others, please correct my exercises (again) if you think this is a load of bollocks.

that's pretty much it. If I recall, they tried to put the vertical crease at the 5% buttock line. I can't recall the details, but yeah, it had something to do with AGSL and how measurers were to measure girth at AGS, and in some cases, to establish where AGS would be located. In the same way that the rudder would be ignored in the girth measurement IIRC, measurers were to ignore the part of the hull inside the 5% buttock in establishing measured girth, but the exact mechanics of that escapes me at the moment.

[spennig]

Gybe:
I remember that boat like it was yesterday. Are you certain it's not Jones? Now I need to know.
It says "Trower" on the drawing. I don't remember that name at all.

Both designs by Gordon Trower (a naval architecture lecturer at a UK south coast college (Southampton perhaps). The example with the long overhang bow was 'Mach 1', the second 'Warbird'. Warbird was a 1/4 tonner (as might have been Mach 1). Both resulted in significant IOR rule amendments.

I'm not sure if Mach 1 was ever built, but Warbird was. Raced at least in Cowes Week, not particularly successfully, before punitive re-rating.

[chorus1]

To illustrate my words about Skeg

Look at the water on the top of the skeg !

Before we got Carbon, skeg was used to re inforce the attachement of the rudder axe. on the hull. In addition skeg conducted water on it.

Anyone comment on what the purpose of the small skeg/bustle in front of some spade IOR rudders was for?
Probably only a couple of inches square in x- section....tapered hydrodynamically into the hull forward of rudders....

[Pehrst]

Another wacky one: (2 posts)

There was a sistership to "Terrorist" built in Sweden in the late 70's. Can't remember her name, anyone recall?

[longy]

As seen in the above pic, there was another (aside from rating) benefit to the IOR skeg: it filled the gap between the upturned hull & the water, preventing rudder aeration/ventilation.

[Pelle]

Another wacky one: (2 posts)

There was a sistership to "Terrorist" built in Sweden in the late 70's. Can't remember her name, anyone recall?

It was called Popeye and had, for the time, a very funky paintjob. I was just a boat obsessed kid at the time but I have a recollection that it was very fast downwind and couldn't go upwind at all. It might have been converted to conventional keel after a season or two but was average at best.

[wildangels]

So... imagine you're me breathing life back into a Buccaneer 295 (Chaser 29). Thru hulls need replacing, do I flush them in or not???

[Great Red Shark]

Gybe:
I remember that boat like it was yesterday. Are you certain it's not Jones? Now I need to know.
It says "Trower" on the drawing. I don't remember that name at all.

yeah Warbird - Gordon Trower, good photo there ! any more

ref: Gray Baigents "New Light Brigade" account of when the tail started wagging the dog, that being a small remote islands designers shook the world of yacht design

also look for the mid-1950s canter.

have a good read Bob, heres to ya

below is Warbirds unbuilt predecessor Mach1 which the ORC were disinclined to allow citing 'rule intent'

That is a REALLY good read. I'd never heard of Fiery Cross. So far ahead of it's day it's scarey.

[chorus1]

Look at ;

http://www.demi-coques.fr/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=76:revolution&catid=46:divers&Itemid=44

Now this is a classic. Represented France four times in the Admirals Cup from 1973 to 1979, also did an Atlantic Triangle race. Raced most times without an engine to achieve the desired rating.
Where is she now?

[Mephisto Cat]

Lots of info here. Great thread. Very educational for those of us who were oblivious to the whole scene at the time... (My boat drawings at the time were in crayon...)


I am running a bit impatient, though, for those promised pictures of the French (f) crewmember on La Belle d'if...This topic is quite good - but does anyone else remember about those promised pictures???

[WarBird]

Gybe:
I remember that boat like it was yesterday. Are you certain it's not Jones? Now I need to know.
It says "Trower" on the drawing. I don't remember that name at all.

Both designs by Gordon Trower (a naval architecture lecturer at a UK south coast college (Southampton perhaps). The example with the long overhang bow was 'Mach 1', the second 'Warbird'. Warbird was a 1/4 tonner (as might have been Mach 1). Both resulted in significant IOR rule amendments.

I'm not sure if Mach 1 was ever built, but Warbird was. Raced at least in Cowes Week, not particularly successfully, before punitive re-rating.

This is so cool, I'm mentionrd in a SA thread and it isn't PA!!!!

[fivestar]

Termites took a fancy to her bikini I'm afraid!!

Lots of info here. Great thread. Very educational for those of us who were oblivious to the whole scene at the time... (My boat drawings at the time were in crayon...)


I am running a bit impatient, though, for those promised pictures of the French (f) crewmember on La Belle d'if...This topic is quite good - but does anyone else remember about those promised pictures???

[soling2003]

Wild angels
Of course you flush fit em. And I know you can do it!

Which one did you get?

[soling2003]

I had a Mull 3/4 ton out of aluminum in the late '70"s early '80's. Lot's of tumblehome, pointy transom, and crew cockpits on either side. Primary and secondary winches on the cabin top.

Hydraulic transmission with shaft coming out of the aft edge of the keel. Noodle triple spreader rig. The most bizare thing was right before the 3/4t NA's or nationals here in Seattle in the late '70's, the PO cut 500 lbs off the bottom of the keel and added a wood shoe, then added 18" to the mast. It was so tender you could hardly sail on a reach with the chute in anything over 10 knots!

I was lucky enough to find the old chunk of lead and put it back on! Yeah, that's right, take 500 lbs off the bottom of the keel and put something that floats in it's place.

But I love these old warhorses so much 15 years later I bought another one......go figure.

[Maxx Baqustae]

I had a Mull 3/4 ton out of aluminum in the late '70"s early '80's. Lot's of tumblehome, pointy transom, and crew cockpits on either side. Primary and secondary winches on the cabin top.

Hydraulic transmission with shaft coming out of the aft edge of the keel. Noodle triple spreader rig. The most bizare thing was right before the 3/4t NA's or nationals here in Seattle in the late '70's, the PO cut 500 lbs off the bottom of the keel and added a wood shoe, then added 18" to the mast. It was so tender you could hardly sail on a reach with the chute in anything over 10 knots!

I was lucky enough to find the old chunk of lead and put it back on! Yeah, that's right, take 500 lbs off the bottom of the keel and put something that floats in it's place.

But I love these old warhorses so much 15 years later I bought another one......go figure.

There were 3 in the area I think. Seattle, Victoria and West Vancouver: Christoper Robin (I think), Impulse & Infidel. I help build the aluminum one but no tumblehome on that boat as it was to hard to build with tumblehome in aircraft aluminum in those days. The owner was a engineer that partnered with the shop next store to his engineering firm.

There was nothing about a lead shoe on this boat but it had a hydraulic drive in the keel bilge. It had a 2 spreader rig as we were going to but carbon on the mast but rule makers of the day said no to carbon in the midst of the program. We had to plug weld strips to strengthen the section.

And our boat was a tank - not tender if I remember. But I was 12 at the time!

[Bob Perry]

Outlaw:
The small skeg was a way of manipulating the Aft Girth Station measurements so that the GSDA (Girth Station Difference Aft) was minimized and the BSA (Buttock Slope Aft) was maximized. This resulted in a reduction in "L". In short it was a way to let the rule know the boat had little power or added sailing length aft and in fact, if you used that shape you did give up sailing length and stability aft. I cover this in my upcoming article on the IOR in GOOD OLD BOAT.

[carcrash]

[quote name='chorus1' timestamp='1324744264' post='3520386']
To illustrate my words about Skeg

Look at the water on the top of the skeg !





[quote name='chorus1' timestamp='1324665642' post='3519534']

As Bob mentions, there was no advantage besides a rating reduction. Look at that wave its making! Exactly the opposite of what you want to see.

I was one of the helmsman (on the fast watch) on Jader in 1979 Transpac. When you would set that thing up on a wave and start surfing, hauling the mail at about 15 knots (yes, that was pretty fast for 100K lbs of 80 foot ketch), a hole in the water would open up under the counter, basically right below your feet. The noise was LOUD, a tremendous flushing sound! The hole in the water was at least 4 feet deep and wide, maybe more like 6x6 feet. Amusing, ridiculous.

There were some great things about that boat, and others S&S designed in those days, but the AGS tricks that resulted in those deep bustles and skegs were not among them. There is a good reason you don't see that anymore.

[aquila]

I have just finnished going through this thread and i have to say its a great one! these boat certainly aren't boring (unlike todays one designs) and are so whacky its cool keep it up guys and big ups to all those maitaining/restoring these old boats.

[Icedtea]

One just showed up in my club, will post pics when I have the chance

[davidweil]

I may have said something about this earlier in this thread (it's been going on for a while), but for all of the criticism of the IOR Rule, the bottom line is that it was an objective engineering rule rather than a subjective pereformance rule. Anyone who has observed the nonsense (politics, personalities, etc) that takes place with PHRF ratings has got to appreciate the difference.

[fivestar]

The attached design from S&S, looks like the original before being modified by Burmeister to become Duva and Vineta
http://sparkmansteph...49-dida-iv.html

[saltyokie]

>I recall a two tonner called Hawkeye that had some success but looked as you put it so wrong.I recall it having extremely reversed tumblehome and bilgeboards.<

Yea, but she was pretty sweetly laid-out below deck.

I think she ended up as a live-aboard in Channel Islands harbor. She looked wierd with huge beam and those bilge boards sticking out above deck. She was aluminum and some one stole her one night, took her down to Mexico and stripped it down for the metal. Also - do not forget the San Juan 24 - in addition to being as ugly as home-made soap, it was the most uncomfortable boat I ever sailed on. It was one big boat bite.

[soling2003]

Maxx B,

I had Christopher robin. It was alum. And lots of tumblehome. I think originally it had a double spreader rig. Then the PO got a mast with a half ton size section and etched the walls down. It was 18" taller than the original mast. That is when he took 500 lbs out of the keel and put a wood shoe in it's place.

It was really fast in the light stuff but couldn't hold a chute on a reach in 15 knots of breeze!,,

Stargazer was another Mull 3/4 t here in seattle then, but fractional rig, bit more modern and of fiberglass.

[Mr. Fixit's brother,, Mr. Fixit]

Here is Swampfire, won the '74 3/4 ton Worlds with bullets in every race. Skipper is Osmond (OJ) Young. The boat is sitting a little over a mile away from me on a trailer dying a slow death. The linked winches have been removed but I could probably find the universal gears and anthill sockets in a boatyard around here somewhere. Incredibly fast upwind in breeze but terrifying DW. Nothing more scary than being trapped in one of the crew wells on a round down. Built by Tom Dreyfus of New Orleans Marine as a one-off using C-flex construction.

Attached Files

•  swampfire.JPG   44.89K   177 downloads

[Maxx Baqustae]

Maxx B,

I had Christopher robin. It was alum. And lots of tumblehome. I think originally it had a double spreader rig. Then the PO got a mast with a half ton size section and etched the walls down. It was 18" taller than the original mast. That is when he took 500 lbs out of the keel and put a wood shoe in it's place.

It was really fast in the light stuff but couldn't hold a chute on a reach in 15 knots of breeze!,,

Stargazer was another Mull 3/4 t here in seattle then, but fractional rig, bit more modern and of fiberglass.

Thanks soling. A lot of history there. The owner and builder found that it as very hard to do an aluminum boat with so many compound curves of a tumblehome boat in the shop we were working with. I think Mull said it really make a huge difference anyway so we did it without. I'm not a big fan of tumblehome and the boat we built was better looking at the end of the day. There is the thought that it's better to get the crew more outboard for weight on the rail upwind anyway. I'm not a NA, or even close, but I've wondered about that for years. Perhaps Mr. Perry would like to comment about that?

BTW soling - we had a single spreader rig that was designed as a half ton section. Three quarters into the program the powers that be decided to ban carbon. We had already etched the section ready for layers of carbon on top of aluminum (it might have been a bad idea in the first place but it wasn't my call - I was just a grunt). We had to plug weld the spar inside with strips. The rig never came out right afterwords.

And Mr. Fixit: I think Swampfire won in '75 and a similar version called Vanpire (don't ask me about the name!) that won in '76. The plans I had from Gary were drawn in '76 too. We built or boat in '77 coming up for the '78 worlds.

[jww]

Maxx B,

I had Christopher robin. It was alum. And lots of tumblehome. I think originally it had a double spreader rig. Then the PO got a mast with a half ton size section and etched the walls down. It was 18" taller than the original mast. That is when he took 500 lbs out of the keel and put a wood shoe in it's place.

It was really fast in the light stuff but couldn't hold a chute on a reach in 15 knots of breeze!,,

Stargazer was another Mull 3/4 t here in seattle then, but fractional rig, bit more modern and of fiberglass.

Thanks soling. A lot of history there. The owner and builder found that it as very hard to do an aluminum boat with so many compound curves of a tumblehome boat in the shop we were working with. I think Mull said it really make a huge difference anyway so we did it without. I'm not a big fan of tumblehome and the boat we built was better looking at the end of the day. There is the thought that it's better to get the crew more outboard for weight on the rail upwind anyway. I'm not a NA, or even close, but I've wondered about that for years. Perhaps Mr. Perry would like to comment about that?

BTW soling - we had a single spreader rig that was designed as a half ton section. Three quarters into the program the powers that be decided to ban carbon. We had already etched the section ready for layers of carbon on top of aluminum (it might have been a bad idea in the first place but it wasn't my call - I was just a grunt). We had to plug weld the spar inside with strips. The rig never came out right afterwords.

And Mr. Fixit: I think Swampfire won in '75 and a similar version called Vanpire (don't ask me about the name!) that won in '76. The plans I had from Gary were drawn in '76 too. We built or boat in '77 coming up for the '78 worlds.

Vanpire was owned by Dr.Daniel Van Heekren and was in the Cleveland area for a few years until he started having a number of custom C&C's built.He currently has a Melges 32 called Vanpire.