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Disturbed IOR design?


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#301 SailBlueH2O

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 08:36 PM

CASCADE, Jerry Milgram designer I think; bizarre rule beater cat ketch, not terribly attractive in hull shape, color, construction...

could still win races, though, under certain conditions



thing was......fast too
much much faster than it's rating

it kicked ass in SORC conditions when everyone awaited it's weakness

#302 Mr. Fixit's brother,, Mr. Fixit

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 10:38 PM

This is excerpted from "The History of Southern Yacht Club" According to this I was incorrect about Swamp winning all the races.

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#303 Mr. Fixit's brother,, Mr. Fixit

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 11:04 PM

This poor boat is 'Mouth' the Peterson 1/2 tonner that won 1976 North Americans. She used to have a Flying Tiger aircraft style shark mouth on her bow.

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#304 SailBlueH2O

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 11:20 PM

This is excerpted from "The History of Southern Yacht Club" According to this I was incorrect about Swamp winning all the races.



Joe Byars....RIP

Google Joe Byars"Doubloon"
"Sprite"

"Raven"
"Falcon"

"Eagle"

#305 sledracr

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 03:57 AM

Stargazer was another Mull 3/4 t here in seattle then, but fractional rig, bit more modern and of fiberglass.


If it's the same one, I raced against Stargazer in SoCal a few eons ago. Was a rocketship in the right conditions...

#306 saltyokie

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 03:57 AM

Outlaw:
The small skeg was a way of manipulating the Aft Girth Station measurements so that the GSDA (Girth Station Difference Aft) was minimized and the BSA (Buttock Slope Aft) was maximized. This resulted in a reduction in "L". In short it was a way to let the rule know the boat had little power or added sailing length aft and in fact, if you used that shape you did give up sailing length and stability aft. I cover this in my upcoming article on the IOR in GOOD OLD BOAT.


I crewed on a good old IOR boat, John Linsky's Yankee 38 Independence.Ted Turner also had a Yankee 38 and raced it, alongside Independence in the one Ton Worlds in San Diego. They got hammered because the boat was so heavy. I was aboard Independence for a race from LA around San Nicholas Island Two things about the Yankee 38 stand out in my mind. First, the boat was a submarine. There was no wave it could not go under. Second, it had a flush deck and a shallow cockpit with low seat backs. My back was killing me after 48 hours around San Nick. Life is a series of coincidences. A couple of years later I was sitting in Frank Butler's office discussing some minor warranty items on my new Catalina 30. Frank had purchased the mold for the Yankee 38 from Yankee Yachts and told me the plug was almost finished. I said, "I hope the cockpit will be more comfortable. "Five minutes later Frank and I were sitting in the cockpit on the plug. It had great seat backs. My comment was, "wow this is a big cockpit." Frank told the craftsman, bring the cabin back 6 inches. I will take credit for the last 6 inches of the cabin of my Catalina 38. It is a dry boat which I had nothing to do with. Frank built 366 of them, I have number 365.

#307 sledracr

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 03:59 AM


CASCADE, Jerry Milgram designer I think; bizarre rule beater cat ketch, not terribly attractive in hull shape, color, construction...

could still win races, though, under certain conditions

thing was......fast too
much much faster than it's rating

it kicked ass in SORC conditions when everyone awaited it's weakness


Yeah... not so much. The thing was a dog against boats of similar size. The whole point of the exercise, though, was that Milgram found some interesting corners of the IOR rule that resulted in a boat that had much more sailing length than "normal" boats in its rating band, and enough un-rated sail-area to make it work.

#308 islandplanet

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 04:31 AM

Yes, FAZISI was in the 1989 Whitbread.
I'm not sure if Vlad's book is still available but it's a damn good read, RACE TO FREEDOM, 7 Seas Publishing.


Vlad has made it available for a free download. I'll try to dig up the link.

Update - found link but it doesn't appear to be offering download, but some info here - http://www.coursefor.../vlad-murnikov/

I'd be happy to email a copy, providing Vlad is okay with it. Since he had it up for free download, I'm sure it's not an issue but want to check.

#309 hobot

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 04:53 AM

This poor boat is 'Mouth' the Peterson 1/2 tonner that won 1976 North Americans. She used to have a Flying Tiger aircraft style shark mouth on her bow.


Holy crap, someone please put that old warhorse out of it's misery.

#310 soling2003

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 06:45 AM

Here is Swampfire, won the '74 3/4 ton Worlds with bullets in every race. Skipper is Osmond (OJ) Young. The boat is sitting a little over a mile away from me on a trailer dying a slow death. The linked winches have been removed but I could probably find the universal gears and anthill sockets in a boatyard around here somewhere. Incredibly fast upwind in breeze but terrifying DW. Nothing more scary than being trapped in one of the crew wells on a round down. Built by Tom Dreyfus of New Orleans Marine as a one-off using C-flex construction.


Looks exactly like my old Mull 3/4 t. Built about the same time, but out of aluminum. But it had a skeg and rolled downwind easily, but you could steer through them.

New owner took out the crew cockpits, made a bigger aft cockpit and put in a wheel.

#311 Maxx Baqustae

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 06:49 AM

This is excerpted from "The History of Southern Yacht Club" According to this I was incorrect about Swamp winning all the races.


I stand corrected mate! It was a long time ago. Maybe Vanpire was '75. Gary's designs were pretty radical those days. Nothing to take anything away from Dougie's Ganbare but Gary's boats were out there. Then things changed - a lot.

#312 r.finn

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Posted 06 July 2012 - 11:44 PM

This poor boat is 'Mouth' the Peterson 1/2 tonner that won 1976 North Americans. She used to have a Flying Tiger aircraft style shark mouth on her bow.


This is Mouth today as photographed in Slidell, LA. Jim Bates owns her along with Swampfire. Both boats on trailers. Real sleepers.

Attached File  IMG463.jpg   779.61K   217 downloads


#313 r.finn

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Posted 06 July 2012 - 11:46 PM

And...Attached File  IMG464.jpg   677.85K   108 downloads

#314 Rasputin22

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Posted 07 July 2012 - 12:12 AM

Here is Swampfire, won the '74 3/4 ton Worlds with bullets in every race. Skipper is Osmond (OJ) Young. The boat is sitting a little over a mile away from me on a trailer dying a slow death. The linked winches have been removed but I could probably find the universal gears and anthill sockets in a boatyard around here somewhere. Incredibly fast upwind in breeze but terrifying DW. Nothing more scary than being trapped in one of the crew wells on a round down. Built by Tom Dreyfus of New Orleans Marine as a one-off using C-flex construction.


Yeah Tommy and C-Flex too!

#315 Mr. Fixit's brother,, Mr. Fixit

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Posted 07 July 2012 - 01:45 AM

And...Attached File  IMG464.jpg   677.85K   108 downloads


Where is that Ryan? ,, I swear I took that in the water pic just a month ago. HaHa I'll have to stop in Jim's office to see what he's up to. Sounds like he has quite the menagerie of boats these days.

#316 o69u812

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Posted 07 July 2012 - 02:18 AM

Here's "Hurrah" today. June 2011 Emerald Bay race (LBYC Catalina Island Series). Can't wait for the peanut gallery to weigh in with comments about our sail trim!







I will weigh in on one thing I can see in the pic, don't stand next to that snatch block on the afterguy on a reach with the pole on the headstay... they will find your balls in Avalon if you're lucky.

#317 isma

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Posted 07 July 2012 - 02:52 AM


This poor boat is 'Mouth' the Peterson 1/2 tonner that won 1976 North Americans. She used to have a Flying Tiger aircraft style shark mouth on her bow.


This is Mouth today as photographed in Slidell, LA. Jim Bates owns her along with Swampfire. Both boats on trailers. Real sleepers.

Attached File  IMG463.jpg   779.61K   217 downloads


The two pictures are of two different boats. The one in Slidell is a Peterson 1/2 tonner. The other, something else very different, very, very different.

#318 12 metre

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Posted 07 July 2012 - 03:32 AM



This poor boat is 'Mouth' the Peterson 1/2 tonner that won 1976 North Americans. She used to have a Flying Tiger aircraft style shark mouth on her bow.


This is Mouth today as photographed in Slidell, LA. Jim Bates owns her along with Swampfire. Both boats on trailers. Real sleepers.

Attached File  IMG463.jpg   779.61K   217 downloads


The two pictures are of two different boats. The one in Slidell is a Peterson 1/2 tonner. The other, something else very different, very, very different.


My thoughts as well. I doubt the beater at the dock is a Peterson. The bow shape is all wrong for starters, in fact there is not a single detail on that boat that would lead me to believe that is a Peterson. On the other hand, with the one in the yard, that is a classic example of a Peterson design of that era.

Anyone recall America Jane IV (the Scott Kauffman design)? I saw her, or a sistership for sale a while back. I always kind of liked the look of her. She was competitive, but never a real world beater.

#319 ~HHN92~

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Posted 07 July 2012 - 03:33 AM

1/? tonner

guess.


I remember this in Sail magazine, around 1974?

#320 timmytwinstay

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Posted 07 July 2012 - 04:13 AM

Stargazer was another Mull 3/4 t here in seattle then, but fractional rig, bit more modern and of fiberglass.


If it's the same one, I raced against Stargazer in SoCal a few eons ago. Was a rocketship in the right conditions...



Your Stargazer must be the 3/4 tonner that Choate built. Not pretty, but not all that ugly. Hat Trick, a Chance Offshore One, was powerful ugly. Very fast in light air and did alright up wind in a breeze, but submerged downwind in anything over 20 knots. Hat Trick won a Whitney Santa Barbara Island Race by half a day, boat for boat, but then nearly sunk on the way out to San Nicolas Island on the next race when the main bulkhead pulled away from the deck beating into big seas. Almost an ugly end to an ugly boat.



#321 saltyokie

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Posted 07 July 2012 - 06:59 AM


Stargazer was another Mull 3/4 t here in seattle then, but fractional rig, bit more modern and of fiberglass.


If it's the same one, I raced against Stargazer in SoCal a few eons ago. Was a rocketship in the right conditions...



Your Stargazer must be the 3/4 tonner that Choate built. Not pretty, but not all that ugly. Hat Trick, a Chance Offshore One, was powerful ugly. Very fast in light air and did alright up wind in a breeze, but submerged downwind in anything over 20 knots. Hat Trick won a Whitney Santa Barbara Island Race by half a day, boat for boat, but then nearly sunk on the way out to San Nicolas Island on the next race when the main bulkhead pulled away from the deck beating into big seas. Almost an ugly end to an ugly boat.


I realized how far out San Nickolas is on one race. On the way back when we neared Santa Barbara Island, I felt I was home. That beat to from Los Angeles to San Nickolas was a test of a boat.

#322 Icedtea

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Posted 07 July 2012 - 03:50 PM

Looking back on the 13 page thread I started led me to realise all the painfully crap boats that were around back then.

I offer my apologies to all for bringing some pictures back that should have rightly been consigned to history.

#323 Mr. Fixit's brother,, Mr. Fixit

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Posted 07 July 2012 - 03:51 PM



This poor boat is 'Mouth' the Peterson 1/2 tonner that won 1976 North Americans. She used to have a Flying Tiger aircraft style shark mouth on her bow.


This is Mouth today as photographed in Slidell, LA. Jim Bates owns her along with Swampfire. Both boats on trailers. Real sleepers.

Attached File  IMG463.jpg   779.61K   217 downloads


The two pictures are of two different boats. The one in Slidell is a Peterson 1/2 tonner. The other, something else very different, very, very different.


Now that I look at the two, I agree. The beater I took the pic of is also in Slidell right near the slip Mouth used to occupy for the last twenty years. I saw it, saw the slender IOR double spreader rig and jumped to the conclusion. Now I'm curious what boat this is.. Hard to tell anything through the crud.

#324 Diarmuid

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Posted 26 July 2012 - 09:33 PM

Just ran across this Gary Mull lawn dart on sailboatlistings.com.

Posted Image

Called a Sudden Yachts 27. Does this qualify as 'disturbed'? Do ya think it lives up to the 'Sudden' part of its name? (Suddenly ... end-swap!!) There's something about the twist in the freeboard that's bad for the eyes -- I keep tilting my head to one side to see if it gets better:

Posted Image

Looks like it would be a rocket in reverse gear. Seller sez: "If you can mount a little 5hp motor on the transome, you would have an awesome boat to cruise the bay."

You'd need one hell of a tiller extension for the OB, eh?

#325 12 metre

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 06:29 AM

Pretty typical Mull design from the late 70's. Look at Swampfire in post 298 and you can see the similarities. A much larger version is the Mull 46 "Gonnagitcha" - there is a drawing of her in some of the West System literature. Putting aside some of the Trower designs, I still think Stephen Jones designed some of the most disturbed IOR designs. These were often moderately successful, but not worldbeaters. Here is Super Nova, one of his earlier half ton designs.

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#326 dash34

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 07:32 AM

Does anyone in the PNW remember a boat called "Royal Rose"? What ever happened to that POS.

Maxx?

Yep, it was a home built 2ton ior design out of wood iirc. I remember it doing Swiftsure -think it blew up-spat the rig or something -then disappeared.

Greetings from Maui btw

Dash

#327 Diarmuid

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 03:22 PM

Pretty typical Mull design from the late 70's. Look at Swampfire in post 298 and you can see the similarities. A much larger version is the Mull 46 "Gonnagitcha" - there is a drawing of her in some of the West System literature. Putting aside some of the Trower designs, I still think Stephen Jones designed some of the most disturbed IOR designs. These were often moderately successful, but not worldbeaters. Here is Super Nova, one of his earlier half ton designs.


Ahhahahaaha. Bow bulb! No. Please. Make it go away. Nuthin like a Lego-colors paint job to accentuate the hull's deformities. Yowza, what a strange-looking boat. :blink:

Spinnaker in your third pic looks absurdly undersized: chicken chute, or was that part of the measurement game as well?

#328 DarthSailor

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 03:53 PM

Here is Swampfire, won the '74 3/4 ton Worlds with bullets in every race. Skipper is Osmond (OJ) Young. The boat is sitting a little over a mile away from me on a trailer dying a slow death. The linked winches have been removed but I could probably find the universal gears and anthill sockets in a boatyard around here somewhere. Incredibly fast upwind in breeze but terrifying DW. Nothing more scary than being trapped in one of the crew wells on a round down. Built by Tom Dreyfus of New Orleans Marine as a one-off using C-flex construction.


Did this boat get donated to Spring Hill College and renamed Stella Maris? If so I can personally attest to the fear induced by the crew wells going downwind in a breeze. If not the same boat Stella Maris had the same type of crew wells and you would truly fear for your life. One kid that raced with us on it suffered a psychotic break the evening after the race and to my knowledge never sailed again.

#329 Maxx Baqustae

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 06:04 PM


Does anyone in the PNW remember a boat called "Royal Rose"? What ever happened to that POS.

Maxx?

Yep, it was a home built 2ton ior design out of wood iirc. I remember it doing Swiftsure -think it blew up-spat the rig or something -then disappeared.

Greetings from Maui btw

Dash


I think Royal Rose was around the 60 mark if I recall. Another fine Grimwood creation that was sorta chiny up in the bow sections and pretty flat (real flat) as static; i think it would pound in 15 knots if any chop at all. I think it was strip planked wood using Elmo's glue, Dollar store duct tape & baling wire if I'm not mistaken. I don't think it was Swiftsure when it was condemned but a Ballenas race when it got up to about 25 knots. The rig started to go slack as the pounding(?) had disintegrated under the mast step below. I think it was taking on water because of a breach of the hull. It was hauled up on the hard and I don't think it sailed again. It sat in Wounded Knee east (Lynnwood Marina yard) for eons. After awhile you could smell the mold as you went past. I thought someone would have given it a Viking funeral but that again it would have been very hard to get it lit as it sat full of rain water. I think someone eventually drilled a hole in the bottom to let the water "out". That said: About 5 years ago I saw someone actually painting it. With a roller and maybe 5 gallons of Sears latex house paint.

The same guy that had the plug for Ariel 48 that sat and sat forever on various yards. And the Soveral 40 "Locura" fiasco that is in these pages somewhere.

I hope you had a good Vic - Maui race Dash. There's a lot of history mate. When El gets back I'm sure I'll get the details.

Cheers

#330 hobot

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 06:10 PM

*note to self, go boatyard crawling in Maxx's part of the world*

#331 Maxx Baqustae

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 06:12 PM

"Crawling" is the operative word mate.

#332 Somebody Else

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 07:14 PM

I still think Stephen Jones designed some of the most disturbed IOR designs. These were often moderately successful, but not worldbeaters.

I agree.

I remember thinking when those designs were being featured in magazines: "If this is the future of yacht design, I'm taking up competitive sewing!" Same goes for Jerry Milgram's crap. Fuck that shit! :angry:

Rate Low and Go Slow.


Why? Just why?

#333 Mr. Fixit's brother,, Mr. Fixit

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 10:35 PM


Here is Swampfire, won the '74 3/4 ton Worlds with bullets in every race. Skipper is Osmond (OJ) Young. The boat is sitting a little over a mile away from me on a trailer dying a slow death. The linked winches have been removed but I could probably find the universal gears and anthill sockets in a boatyard around here somewhere. Incredibly fast upwind in breeze but terrifying DW. Nothing more scary than being trapped in one of the crew wells on a round down. Built by Tom Dreyfus of New Orleans Marine as a one-off using C-flex construction.


Did this boat get donated to Spring Hill College and renamed Stella Maris? If so I can personally attest to the fear induced by the crew wells going downwind in a breeze. If not the same boat Stella Maris had the same type of crew wells and you would truly fear for your life. One kid that raced with us on it suffered a psychotic break the evening after the race and to my knowledge never sailed again.

No Stella Maris was a C&C 33 or 35. This was "Holy Ghost" that you are thinking of.

#334 Bob Perry

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 10:43 PM

I liked Stephen Jones work. It was fun to see an independant thinker at work.
Here is a conventional quarter tonner I did. They built two of these. The first one UNION JACK was unbeatable when it was new in the PNW. It was heavy, with high feeboard and a huge rig. It was a rocket in light air and a total moster downwind in a breeze. It came just at the start of the invasion of Kiwi light, frac rigged planing q tonners. In a year the UNION JACK type was obsolete. UNION JACK had a flush deck and to my eye looked like a mini two tonner. It is still around and lovingly restored by its original owner and sailed by his daughter.

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#335 Diarmuid

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Posted 28 July 2012 - 03:31 AM

Query:

(Aside -- not sure why this topic fascinates me, but it does. The deep lore here, plus the idea of willfully farking up a boat's performance for the sake of a number....)

Anyway, query: how many of the really radical IOR custom designs were the owner's second or third boat? Was it generally understood they were short-lived freaks that existed as much for the Sailing Dadaism value as anything? Was it a case of "We only sail that monster at the Quarter Ton Championships; our real boat is a Hinckley"?

#336 moody frog

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Posted 28 July 2012 - 08:41 AM

Query:

(Aside -- not sure why this topic fascinates me, but it does. The deep lore here, plus the idea of willfully farking up a boat's performance for the sake of a number....)

Anyway, query: how many of the really radical IOR custom designs were the owner's second or third boat? Was it generally understood they were short-lived freaks that existed as much for the Sailing Dadaism value as anything? Was it a case of "We only sail that monster at the Quarter Ton Championships; our real boat is a Hinckley"?


I can only talk for this side of the world and the answer is no !
Radical (and other) 1/4, 1/2 ton boats were owned by rather young people who wanted to bring more "sport" into yacht racing and/or pursue a designing or building career.
They were affordable to build and run, while bringing in the tenser sailing attitude from dinghy racing opened big gaps in performance compared to the "established" offshore-racing community.
Development became part of the "adventure" as much as going offshore was: 1/4 ton were racing 100+ miles races, 1/2 ton 200+
Short lifes resulted, for a good share, from "hey, we should have done it different or gone further, let's find a way to try it next year".
having the full crew living onboard for a full 1/4 ton or 1/2 ton campaign was quite common.

#337 r.finn

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Posted 28 July 2012 - 11:05 PM

The QT we have is a blast. We pile six people for Wednesday nights, no spinnaker and plenty of deck for the drunk people to move around without having to pick up their feet. Super tender, but gives lot's of feedback in even the slightest breeze, which is mainly what we have in NOLA. Definitely my favorite boat for light air sailing. Don't get a QT if you are actually trying to go somewhere though.

Attached File  IMG306-1.jpg   143.64K   290 downloads

Attached File  IMG264.jpg   153.91K   243 downloads

#338 hobot

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Posted 28 July 2012 - 11:18 PM

Looks fun!

#339 longy

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Posted 29 July 2012 - 01:41 AM


Stargazer was another Mull 3/4 t here in seattle then, but fractional rig, bit more modern and of fiberglass.


If it's the same one, I raced against Stargazer in SoCal a few eons ago. Was a rocketship in the right conditions...



Your Stargazer must be the 3/4 tonner that Choate built. Not pretty, but not all that ugly. Hat Trick, a Chance Offshore One, was powerful ugly. Very fast in light air and did alright up wind in a breeze, but submerged downwind in anything over 20 knots. Hat Trick won a Whitney Santa Barbara Island Race by half a day, boat for boat, but then nearly sunk on the way out to San Nicolas Island on the next race when the main bulkhead pulled away from the deck beating into big seas. Almost an ugly end to an ugly boat.


Might also have been the Davidson maxi MORC boat that McLaurin had built (twice). IIRC first one fell apart rather quickly. 2nd hull was built about a year later, & did OK.
OOPS, no, the boat thought of above was Stardancer.

#340 chorus1

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Posted 31 July 2012 - 12:18 PM

The QT we have is a blast. We pile six people for Wednesday nights, no spinnaker and plenty of deck for the drunk people to move around without having to pick up their feet. Super tender, but gives lot's of feedback in even the slightest breeze, which is mainly what we have in NOLA. Definitely my favorite boat for light air sailing. Don't get a QT if you are actually trying to go somewhere though.

Attached File  IMG306-1.jpg   143.64K   290 downloads

Attached File  IMG264.jpg   153.91K   243 downloads


Care mate, ure engine's chair (Seal ?) is not at the right middle of the hull :) to compenstae the torque of the propeller ?

#341 Icedtea

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Posted 31 July 2012 - 10:47 PM

Jesus that flush-decked quarter looks interesting to say the least....maybe a tad too responsive if you get me?

#342 Hannes

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Posted 01 August 2012 - 09:57 AM

Pretty typical Mull design from the late 70's. Look at Swampfire in post 298 and you can see the similarities. A much larger version is the Mull 46 "Gonnagitcha" - there is a drawing of her in some of the West System literature. Putting aside some of the Trower designs, I still think Stephen Jones designed some of the most disturbed IOR designs. These were often moderately successful, but not worldbeaters. Here is Super Nova, one of his earlier half ton designs.


Did he get that stern from a 12mR?

#343 DarthSailor

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Posted 01 August 2012 - 03:57 PM



Here is Swampfire, won the '74 3/4 ton Worlds with bullets in every race. Skipper is Osmond (OJ) Young. The boat is sitting a little over a mile away from me on a trailer dying a slow death. The linked winches have been removed but I could probably find the universal gears and anthill sockets in a boatyard around here somewhere. Incredibly fast upwind in breeze but terrifying DW. Nothing more scary than being trapped in one of the crew wells on a round down. Built by Tom Dreyfus of New Orleans Marine as a one-off using C-flex construction.


Did this boat get donated to Spring Hill College and renamed Stella Maris? If so I can personally attest to the fear induced by the crew wells going downwind in a breeze. If not the same boat Stella Maris had the same type of crew wells and you would truly fear for your life. One kid that raced with us on it suffered a psychotic break the evening after the race and to my knowledge never sailed again.

No Stella Maris was a C&C 33 or 35. This was "Holy Ghost" that you are thinking of.


You are correct sir she was Light grey/blue. Not sure how I could forget Holy Smoke, she was also blue is probably the reason (discounting age and booze related brain cell death).

#344 USA 236

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Posted 04 August 2012 - 01:20 AM

The QT we have is a blast. We pile six people for Wednesday nights, no spinnaker and plenty of deck for the drunk people to move around without having to pick up their feet. Super tender, but gives lot's of feedback in even the slightest breeze, which is mainly what we have in NOLA. Definitely my favorite boat for light air sailing. Don't get a QT if you are actually trying to go somewhere though.

Attached File  IMG306-1.jpg   143.64K   290 downloads

Attached File  IMG264.jpg   153.91K   243 downloads



What is it? Cool looking ride!

#345 winipad

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Posted 04 August 2012 - 01:29 AM

Sorry friend I don't . please tell me about this.

Thanks

#346 r.finn

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Posted 04 August 2012 - 04:39 PM


The QT we have is a blast. We pile six people for Wednesday nights, no spinnaker and plenty of deck for the drunk people to move around without having to pick up their feet. Super tender, but gives lot's of feedback in even the slightest breeze, which is mainly what we have in NOLA. Definitely my favorite boat for light air sailing. Don't get a QT if you are actually trying to go somewhere though.

Attached File  IMG306-1.jpg   143.64K   290 downloads

Attached File  IMG264.jpg   153.91K   243 downloads



What is it? Cool looking ride!


Here's the story as I have pieced it together.
It's a Stoner 25 one off, built for NOLA based Jim Bates in 75', it never left the lake. Sat at the dock for a solid decade before Katrina came and moved it over one slip. That's as much sailing as the boat did until we got the boat sailing last month. From every porson who knew the boat from back in the day I was told this boat was a waste of time because it was so slow compared to even production Quarter Tonners of the day. She raced locally against a Kiwi 24 "Good Groceries", Kirby QT "Halloweeny", and the Mull Espresso. Apparently this boat was never fast and very expensive. Mind you I never asked a lot about the boat, but guys from back in the day would come up to me while working on the boat in dry storage and offer vague memories about how much of a pos this thing was. For me it was free (I have like $300 in it now) and I wanted to get my non sailing friends out for Wednesdays, so I didn't give a shit. The hearsay goes that they experimented a lot trying to make the boat compete. The keel has been moved a couple times, the rig too, and the rudder messed with extensively until it looks like the brick wall it is now.

All I did was fair in some damage on the port side, rebuild the keel structure a bit which was rotting, removed all unnecessary deck hardware for sailing, and painted the deck. Also sanded off the bottom paint with 80 grit. The plan was dry sail the boat, don't bother with waterproofing (we have no companion way hatch) and drill a big hole behind the keel for rain to drain from. We just jam a rubber motorboat plug in the bottom before we launch. No instruments except for a compass, although we do plan on installing a windex this winter. So far everything has worked, and the boat is really fast, and most importantly all my non-sailing friends are loving getting into the sport.

Attached File  625618_424327714279933_1842730870_n.jpg   28.68K   90 downloads

Attached File  380656_414146001964771_367833051_n.jpg   37.64K   91 downloads

photo credits: neworleanssailing.com/

So the moral of the story is, if you can get your hands on one of these boats, do it. It's some of the most fun I've had sailing in a long time. Clean it up a bit, dumb down the deck layout, and enjoy sailing.

Like this: http://forums.sailin...howtopic=134843




#347 hobot

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Posted 04 August 2012 - 05:01 PM

Dig it!!

#348 Mr. Fixit's brother,, Mr. Fixit

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Posted 04 August 2012 - 05:21 PM



The QT we have is a blast. We pile six people for Wednesday nights, no spinnaker and plenty of deck for the drunk people to move around without having to pick up their feet. Super tender, but gives lot's of feedback in even the slightest breeze, which is mainly what we have in NOLA. Definitely my favorite boat for light air sailing. Don't get a QT if you are actually trying to go somewhere though.

Attached File  IMG306-1.jpg   143.64K   290 downloads

Attached File  IMG264.jpg   153.91K   243 downloads



What is it? Cool looking ride!


Here's the story as I have pieced it together.
It's a Stoner 25 one off, built for NOLA based Jim Bates in 75', it never left the lake. Sat at the dock for a solid decade before Katrina came and moved it over one slip. That's as much sailing as the boat did until we got the boat sailing last month. From every porson who knew the boat from back in the day I was told this boat was a waste of time because it was so slow compared to even production Quarter Tonners of the day. She raced locally against a Kiwi 24 "Good Groceries", Kirby QT "Halloweeny", and the Mull Espresso. Apparently this boat was never fast and very expensive. Mind you I never asked a lot about the boat, but guys from back in the day would come up to me while working on the boat in dry storage and offer vague memories about how much of a pos this thing was. For me it was free (I have like $300 in it now) and I wanted to get my non sailing friends out for Wednesdays, so I didn't give a shit. The hearsay goes that they experimented a lot trying to make the boat compete. The keel has been moved a couple times, the rig too, and the rudder messed with extensively until it looks like the brick wall it is now.

All I did was fair in some damage on the port side, rebuild the keel structure a bit which was rotting, removed all unnecessary deck hardware for sailing, and painted the deck. Also sanded off the bottom paint with 80 grit. The plan was dry sail the boat, don't bother with waterproofing (we have no companion way hatch) and drill a big hole behind the keel for rain to drain from. We just jam a rubber motorboat plug in the bottom before we launch. No instruments except for a compass, although we do plan on installing a windex this winter. So far everything has worked, and the boat is really fast, and most importantly all my non-sailing friends are loving getting into the sport.

Attached File  625618_424327714279933_1842730870_n.jpg   28.68K   90 downloads

Attached File  380656_414146001964771_367833051_n.jpg   37.64K   91 downloads

photo credits: neworleanssailing.com/

So the moral of the story is, if you can get your hands on one of these boats, do it. It's some of the most fun I've had sailing in a long time. Clean it up a bit, dumb down the deck layout, and enjoy sailing.

Like this: http://forums.sailin...howtopic=134843


You need to ask Dovie or Skipper Sheldon to look around for that DW photo sequence. Pretty fun

#349 Santana20AE

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Posted 04 August 2012 - 09:49 PM

cool:D





Attached File  Anna on her way to her first win compressed.JPG   501.95K   51 downloads

#350 Icedtea

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Posted 12 August 2012 - 07:22 AM

Reading back over this thread it amazes me that half those boats were ever able to float. After a week racing against sone old IOR sleds I'd tend to agree with all said above!

#351 kpie

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Posted 21 September 2012 - 09:57 PM

this boat probably belongs in this thread. 1974 one tonner terrorist rebuild as of 9/15/2012.

Attached File  DSCN3114.JPG   145.39K   99 downloadsAttached File  DSCN3156.JPG   123.75K   96 downloadsAttached File  DSCN3153.JPG   116.91K   88 downloads

#352 SailBlueH2O

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Posted 21 September 2012 - 10:52 PM

Blending the rule~~~~pure~~~


and a year before in the SORC....Sweet Okole

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#353 Bus Driver

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Posted 21 September 2012 - 11:14 PM

Pretty typical Mull design from the late 70's. Look at Swampfire in post 298 and you can see the similarities. A much larger version is the Mull 46 "Gonnagitcha" - there is a drawing of her in some of the West System literature. Putting aside some of the Trower designs, I still think Stephen Jones designed some of the most disturbed IOR designs. These were often moderately successful, but not worldbeaters. Here is Super Nova, one of his earlier half ton designs.


This is the old "Gonnagitcha".

Posted Image

Not sure if she is still being campaigned. The owner, Ed, and the "designated adult/navigator", Dick, were terrific guys and we had a ball sailing her in the Northern Chesapeake. In fact, when Dick wasn't aboard, we prided ourselves when we won a race sailing "Dick-less". Prior to him and one other owner, the boat had been at the Naval Academy and named "Reprisal".

#354 sledracr

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Posted 22 September 2012 - 02:35 AM

this boat probably belongs in this thread. 1974 one tonner terrorist rebuild as of 9/15/2012.

Attached File  DSCN3114.JPG   145.39K   99 downloadsAttached File  DSCN3156.JPG   123.75K   96 downloadsAttached File  DSCN3153.JPG   116.91K   88 downloads


That's awesome. Had some great (if blurry) times on that boat with the UCI sailing team, way back when. Where is it now?

#355 sledracr

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Posted 22 September 2012 - 02:38 AM

and a year before in the SORC....Sweet Okole


You *do* know the boat in that picture isn't Sweet Okole.... right?

#356 fastyacht

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Posted 22 September 2012 - 03:19 AM

CASCADE, Jerry Milgram designer I think; bizarre rule beater cat ketch, not terribly attractive in hull shape, color, construction...

could still win races, though, under certain conditions

+1
She's a bald-headed cat-ketch. See page 497 of Tony Marchaj's epic tome Aero-Hydrodynamics of Sailing

And of course J. Milgram is an MIT professor extraordinaire, inventor (if I remember correctly) of MHS which led to IMS -- actually developed the "VPP" n its original formulation. He bubbles over with intellectual energy. I like to think that Cascade was in some small way vindicated in the '93 Whitbread when MERIT and the other IOR maxis were all ketches.

#357 SailBlueH2O

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Posted 22 September 2012 - 03:23 AM

and a year before in the SORC....Sweet Okole


You *do* know the boat in that picture isn't Sweet Okole.... right?

I built the boat in the picture......

#358 SailBlueH2O

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Posted 22 September 2012 - 03:32 AM

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#359 fastyacht

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Posted 22 September 2012 - 03:33 AM

I have a book written by the designer Vladislav Murnikov, my pal Vlad, called RACE TO FREEDOM. It's a great book.
FAZISI had sort of a pronounced sheer and a flush deck. It was very interesting looking and not ugly. The project was plagued by lack of funds and I would say FAZISI was not a typical IOR boat.

I went aboard FAZISI in Philadelphia in the early 90s and either Vlad, or a member of the crew (I think the latter was the case) explained that her low freeboard was the solution to how to build an aluminum boat that could be competitive with a carbon-kevlar boat. She did not have standing headroom for me. She was rather submarine-like down below. And she drew 14 feet and dug a furrow in the mud at Penn's Landing.

#360 DRIFTW00D

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Posted 22 September 2012 - 03:41 AM

The boat is still sailing and lives at the NYC in Toronto. The current owner knows the builder personally and has sailed on many of his designs and boats. Can't say a whole lot about the boats performance but the owner loves it. Posted Image


A little boat called Spad ? comes to mind it was varnished wood about 27 feet . In '85 the big blow year it was in the Black River before the BYC Mac. It had a pair of outboard pipe steering platforms in the aft end over and outside a cigar shaped hull. She never made it to the finish neather did 75% of the flee that year I'm not sure of its design rule IOR or MORC. It looked ugly and wet, nice combo .


aH?? Photos or u aint seen it.

#361 chorus1

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Posted 22 September 2012 - 08:26 AM

this boat probably belongs in this thread. 1974 one tonner terrorist rebuild as of 9/15/2012.

Attached File  DSCN3114.JPG   145.39K   99 downloadsAttached File  DSCN3156.JPG   123.75K   96 downloadsAttached File  DSCN3153.JPG   116.91K   88 downloads

Very pleased to hear about her !
Any more pics about Terrorist ?


#362 kpie

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Posted 22 September 2012 - 10:12 AM


this boat probably belongs in this thread. 1974 one tonner terrorist rebuild as of 9/15/2012.

Attached File  DSCN3114.JPG   145.39K   99 downloadsAttached File  DSCN3156.JPG   123.75K   96 downloadsAttached File  DSCN3153.JPG   116.91K   88 downloads


That's awesome. Had some great (if blurry) times on that boat with the UCI sailing team, way back when. Where is it now?

the boat came from port townsend. i hauled the boat to my shop in okc & rebuilt it there. the boat is now being painted in texas where it will shuttle between corpus & lake texoma. i built a trailer for it, so i'm gonna make some road trips, including possibly california next year(i have a daughter in los angeles).

i've talked to bob steele several times about the boat. he apparently ran the boat with/for al cassel. did you know him?

#363 kpie

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Posted 22 September 2012 - 10:32 AM


this boat probably belongs in this thread. 1974 one tonner terrorist rebuild as of 9/15/2012.

Attached File  DSCN3114.JPG   145.39K   99 downloadsAttached File  DSCN3156.JPG   123.75K   96 downloadsAttached File  DSCN3153.JPG   116.91K   88 downloads

Very pleased to hear about her !
Any more pics about Terrorist ?

i have hundreds of pics of the rebuild which included new boards, trunks, framing, supports, deck plating repair, rudder, engine & shaft log. here's a few.

Attached Files

  • Attached File  41.jpg   140.99K   38 downloads
  • Attached File  49.jpg   98.72K   52 downloads
  • Attached File  DSCN2771.JPG   137.78K   47 downloads


#364 jhc

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Posted 22 September 2012 - 10:52 AM

Blending the rule~~~~pure~~~


and a year before in the SORC....Sweet Okole


Imp...'76. With the structural aluminum 'space frame' in foreground.

#365 SailBlueH2O

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Posted 22 September 2012 - 11:42 AM

Imp...

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#366 Mr. Fixit's brother,, Mr. Fixit

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 01:57 AM


Pretty typical Mull design from the late 70's. Look at Swampfire in post 298 and you can see the similarities. A much larger version is the Mull 46 "Gonnagitcha" - there is a drawing of her in some of the West System literature. Putting aside some of the Trower designs, I still think Stephen Jones designed some of the most disturbed IOR designs. These were often moderately successful, but not worldbeaters. Here is Super Nova, one of his earlier half ton designs.


This is the old "Gonnagitcha".

Posted Image

Not sure if she is still being campaigned. The owner, Ed, and the "designated adult/navigator", Dick, were terrific guys and we had a ball sailing her in the Northern Chesapeake. In fact, when Dick wasn't aboard, we prided ourselves when we won a race sailing "Dick-less". Prior to him and one other owner, the boat had been at the Naval Academy and named "Reprisal".


So is Gonnagitcha the ex "Wimoweh" from New Orleans that sank in the '75 SORC after hitting Great Isaacs?

#367 chorus1

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 07:59 AM



this boat probably belongs in this thread. 1974 one tonner terrorist rebuild as of 9/15/2012.

Attached File  DSCN3114.JPG   145.39K   99 downloadsAttached File  DSCN3156.JPG   123.75K   96 downloadsAttached File  DSCN3153.JPG   116.91K   88 downloads


That's awesome. Had some great (if blurry) times on that boat with the UCI sailing team, way back when. Where is it now?

the boat came from port townsend. i hauled the boat to my shop in okc & rebuilt it there. the boat is now being painted in texas where it will shuttle between corpus & lake texoma. i built a trailer for it, so i'm gonna make some road trips, including possibly california next year(i have a daughter in los angeles).

i've talked to bob steele several times about the boat. he apparently ran the boat with/for al cassel. did you know him?

No i dont know him do you think he would have some good pics of Terrorist under sail ?
Good job Anyway kpie !

#368 cruizin31

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 07:43 PM

the boat came from port townsend. i hauled the boat to my shop in okc & rebuilt it there. the boat is now being painted in texas where it will shuttle between corpus & lake texoma. i built a trailer for it, so i'm gonna make some road trips, including possibly california next year(i have a daughter in los angeles)


Wow, I never thought I would live to see this. Thank you for saving her! I'll pass this along to my dad, who happens to be the designer.

#369 sledracr

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 08:39 PM

^^^ kewl!

Say hi for me... I did a pseudo internship under him when I was in engineering school and he maintained an office at the Ericson shop in SoCal.

#370 kpie

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 08:57 PM

the boat came from port townsend. i hauled the boat to my shop in okc & rebuilt it there. the boat is now being painted in texas where it will shuttle between corpus & lake texoma. i built a trailer for it, so i'm gonna make some road trips, including possibly california next year(i have a daughter in los angeles)


Wow, I never thought I would live to see this. Thank you for saving her! I'll pass this along to my dad, who happens to be the designer.

i've traded a few emails w/ your dad. actually, i think we have also communicated once or twice a few years ago. i believe you were the one who got me in contact w/ your dad. you're martin, i presume.

#371 cruizin31

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 01:25 AM


the boat came from port townsend. i hauled the boat to my shop in okc & rebuilt it there. the boat is now being painted in texas where it will shuttle between corpus & lake texoma. i built a trailer for it, so i'm gonna make some road trips, including possibly california next year(i have a daughter in los angeles)


Wow, I never thought I would live to see this. Thank you for saving her! I'll pass this along to my dad, who happens to be the designer.

i've traded a few emails w/ your dad. actually, i think we have also communicated once or twice a few years ago. i believe you were the one who got me in contact w/ your dad. you're martin, i presume.


Correct on all counts.

#372 Somebody Else

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 01:26 AM

i've talked to bob steele several times about the boat. he apparently ran the boat with/for al cassel. did you know him?

Bob is one of the principals (if not "The" principal) of buoyweather.com
Southern California resident and sailor.

#373 kpie

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 01:35 AM


i've talked to bob steele several times about the boat. he apparently ran the boat with/for al cassel. did you know him?

Bob is one of the principals (if not "The" principal) of buoyweather.com
Southern California resident and sailor.

yes. bob is a lot of fun to talk to & remembers alot about the boat & al cassel. he's seems to have a sincere fondness for both.

#374 Somebody Else

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 03:42 AM

I remember as a young 20-something seeing those Stephen Jones designs and thinking, "Why does this guy hate boats so much?"

By that time I had some books like Skene's and a few others, along with a copy of IOR Mk IIIa of which I had programmed a significant amount into my TI 55 calculator. I knew Jones was trying to fake out L and I appreciated his intentions, but I was just, "No!"

It seemed to me that he (and a few other designers) were on a mission to prove that hull shape simply didn't matter for racing sailboats. Or more specifically that sail area was much more significant than hull shape. And of course there would always be some outlier conditions where that was indeed the case. But the question remains: "Why?"

Same goes for Milgram and Cascade. Can you imaging what would have happened if Cascade was actually successful? God bless Wylie and his good-looking and well-mannered Wyliecats, but Cascade was neither.

#375 moody frog

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 08:40 AM

I remember as a young 20-something seeing those Stephen Jones designs and thinking, "Why does this guy hate boats so much?"

By that time I had some books like Skene's and a few others, along with a copy of IOR Mk IIIa of which I had programmed a significant amount into my TI 55 calculator. I knew Jones was trying to fake out L and I appreciated his intentions, but I was just, "No!"

It seemed to me that he (and a few other designers) were on a mission to prove that hull shape simply didn't matter for racing sailboats. Or more specifically that sail area was much more significant than hull shape. And of course there would always be some outlier conditions where that was indeed the case. But the question remains: "Why?"

Same goes for Milgram and Cascade. Can you imaging what would have happened if Cascade was actually successful? God bless Wylie and his good-looking and well-mannered Wyliecats, but Cascade was neither.


The TI 55 quote is, I believe, excellent.

Design was driven by the Ton cups where the standard of sailing was excellent, therefore a faster boat for a given rating was a key to a buffer over the opposition.

Many designers in the smaller classes, and for sure the young innovating ones, had limited access to computing power, TI 55 was a common tool.
One key rationale was to increase sailing-length to improve beam-reach and downwind speed while ensuring the lowest % of measured sail-area (RSAP) compared to the actual sail area (see catboats and cascade).
Quite simple: pile-up unmeasured sailing-length and unmeasured sail-area. Less was to be lost in disruptions than what was gained in raw-power

At least this is what I remember from those days and it proves your point.

The light brigade came in (45° South QTC '75) and a totally different sailing and handling behaviour allowed smaller boats to win: a 7.3 m boat beam reaching faster than a 7.8 m one.

Soon the "calculators" thought that it should be possible to use the same tricks as on medium dspl yachts to draw a larger "light brigade" for a given rating, and it was back to square one.

So: Why ? many youngsters figured that a ton-cup success was a guaranteed entry into a nice job, they had to use any potential weapon be it ugliness.

#376 jhiller

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 11:16 AM

I recall a two tonner called Hawkeye that had some success but looked as you put it so wrong.I recall it having extremely reversed tumblehome and bilgeboards.



Hawkeye and Swampfire were a pair of Bruce King designed bilge-boarders. Both were 2 tonners and both did win races. I crewed on Swamp Fire a few times. It sailed well and was quite fast. Many of the IOR boats weren't either. As racing began to grow in popularity there were dozens of IOR rule beaters designed that just plain couldn't sail down wind in a breze. Sails like Bloopers were invented to keep them from rolling from rail to rail in a breeze.

#377 Forza

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 11:16 AM

Anyone know where the Mull designed Hot Flash (half ton) currently resides ?

#378 kpie

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 12:30 PM


I recall a two tonner called Hawkeye that had some success but looked as you put it so wrong.I recall it having extremely reversed tumblehome and bilgeboards.



Hawkeye and Swampfire were a pair of Bruce King designed bilge-boarders. Both were 2 tonners and both did win races. I crewed on Swamp Fire a few times. It sailed well and was quite fast. Many of the IOR boats weren't either. As racing began to grow in popularity there were dozens of IOR rule beaters designed that just plain couldn't sail down wind in a breze. Sails like Bloopers were invented to keep them from rolling from rail to rail in a breeze.

swampfire was a mull designed 3/4 tonner out of new orleans.

#379 kpie

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 12:33 PM


I recall a two tonner called Hawkeye that had some success but looked as you put it so wrong.I recall it having extremely reversed tumblehome and bilgeboards.



Hawkeye and Swampfire were a pair of Bruce King designed bilge-boarders. Both were 2 tonners and both did win races. I crewed on Swamp Fire a few times. It sailed well and was quite fast. Many of the IOR boats weren't either. As racing began to grow in popularity there were dozens of IOR rule beaters designed that just plain couldn't sail down wind in a breze. Sails like Bloopers were invented to keep them from rolling from rail to rail in a breeze.

& swampfire didn't have bilgeboards.

#380 halfton

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 12:44 PM

Stephen Jones designing ugly boats? His SJ35 and SJ41 are amongst the prettiest designs ever... Remarkably good racing pedigree as well.

#381 Somebody Else

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 12:44 PM

One key rationale was to increase sailing-length to improve beam-reach and downwind speed while ensuring the lowest % of measured sail-area (RSAP) compared to the actual sail area (see catboats and cascade).

Historically speaking, that is a no-win scenario. Unless you are building specifically for a downwind race (Transpac comes to mind...) the odds of getting an off-wind flier to the podium are stacked against you.

In windward/leeward races, 2/3 of the time is spent going upwind. If you optimize a boat for anything other than that 2/3 condition you are simply bucking the odds. This is why EVERY SINGLE box rule eventually ends up producing upwind weapons. There are the odd designs with better off-wind speed but the comment is always, "Well, we never really got our conditions." Hey! You knew that would be the case before you ever started.

#382 JimC

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 01:07 PM

Historically speaking, that is a no-win scenario. Unless you are building specifically for a downwind race

'tain't necessarilly so. No point in eking out a 50 yard lead on a beat if you're going to half a mile downhill.Laws of physics say differentials in speed upwind must be far less than are achieveable downwind. What you might call a 45 degrees South lesson.

#383 moody frog

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 01:50 PM


One key rationale was to increase sailing-length to improve beam-reach and downwind speed while ensuring the lowest % of measured sail-area (RSAP) compared to the actual sail area (see catboats and cascade).

Historically speaking, that is a no-win scenario. Unless you are building specifically for a downwind race (Transpac comes to mind...) the odds of getting an off-wind flier to the podium are stacked against you.

In windward/leeward races, 2/3 of the time is spent going upwind. If you optimize a boat for anything other than that 2/3 condition you are simply bucking the odds. This is why EVERY SINGLE box rule eventually ends up producing upwind weapons. There are the odd designs with better off-wind speed but the comment is always, "Well, we never really got our conditions." Hey! You knew that would be the case before you ever started.


You r right when speaking in 2012.
At the time, the Ton Cup format was totally different from W/L !! and local races were also around existing buoys.
.
The program was made of coastal races (sometime in the latest editions an olympic triangle amongst them) kind of 30-40 miles and a long offshore on a pre-determined course. (from 120 miles for 1/4 ton to over 250 and with double points)
Downwind and beam-wind legs were therefore of paramount importance, I can remember one or two races with significant eased-sheets legs, and that's where the light brigade (+ fractional rig) took the up, passing the mast-head medium-dspl boats, who had earlier led upwind, on those legs.

Different sports !

#384 fastyacht

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 03:41 PM



One key rationale was to increase sailing-length to improve beam-reach and downwind speed while ensuring the lowest % of measured sail-area (RSAP) compared to the actual sail area (see catboats and cascade).

Historically speaking, that is a no-win scenario. Unless you are building specifically for a downwind race (Transpac comes to mind...) the odds of getting an off-wind flier to the podium are stacked against you.

In windward/leeward races, 2/3 of the time is spent going upwind. If you optimize a boat for anything other than that 2/3 condition you are simply bucking the odds. This is why EVERY SINGLE box rule eventually ends up producing upwind weapons. There are the odd designs with better off-wind speed but the comment is always, "Well, we never really got our conditions." Hey! You knew that would be the case before you ever started.


You r right when speaking in 2012.
At the time, the Ton Cup format was totally different from W/L !! and local races were also around existing buoys.
.
The program was made of coastal races (sometime in the latest editions an olympic triangle amongst them) kind of 30-40 miles and a long offshore on a pre-determined course. (from 120 miles for 1/4 ton to over 250 and with double points)
Downwind and beam-wind legs were therefore of paramount importance, I can remember one or two races with significant eased-sheets legs, and that's where the light brigade (+ fractional rig) took the up, passing the mast-head medium-dspl boats, who had earlier led upwind, on those legs.

Different sports !


Yes. It used to be *ocean racing*. Now it is stupid.

#385 Icedtea

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 03:49 PM

120 miles in a quarter tonner?

Jesus were thse lads brave or really stupid?

Cause that sounds awesome....

#386 moody frog

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 03:52 PM




One key rationale was to increase sailing-length to improve beam-reach and downwind speed while ensuring the lowest % of measured sail-area (RSAP) compared to the actual sail area (see catboats and cascade).

Historically speaking, that is a no-win scenario. Unless you are building specifically for a downwind race (Transpac comes to mind...) the odds of getting an off-wind flier to the podium are stacked against you.

In windward/leeward races, 2/3 of the time is spent going upwind. If you optimize a boat for anything other than that 2/3 condition you are simply bucking the odds. This is why EVERY SINGLE box rule eventually ends up producing upwind weapons. There are the odd designs with better off-wind speed but the comment is always, "Well, we never really got our conditions." Hey! You knew that would be the case before you ever started.


You r right when speaking in 2012.
At the time, the Ton Cup format was totally different from W/L !! and local races were also around existing buoys.
.
The program was made of coastal races (sometime in the latest editions an olympic triangle amongst them) kind of 30-40 miles and a long offshore on a pre-determined course. (from 120 miles for 1/4 ton to over 250 and with double points)
Downwind and beam-wind legs were therefore of paramount importance, I can remember one or two races with significant eased-sheets legs, and that's where the light brigade (+ fractional rig) took the up, passing the mast-head medium-dspl boats, who had earlier led upwind, on those legs.

Different sports !


Yes. It used to be *ocean racing*. Now it is stupid.


Time and things change ! who could spare the time for what we did, nowadays, + no navi-guessing anymore, hence in the time of GPS one competitive factor would be lost, length of race do not necessarily create differences.

#387 moody frog

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 03:55 PM

120 miles in a quarter tonner?

Jesus were thse lads brave or really stupid?

Cause that sounds awesome....


Why ? being allowed to cross to Cork from France on the 1/4 ton borrowed from the owner was a common (if rare) end of season "gift" for crews ;)

On the other hand, the rationale of this Ton cup format was to make sure that boats were not built too light !

#388 fastyacht

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 04:08 PM


120 miles in a quarter tonner?

Jesus were thse lads brave or really stupid?

Cause that sounds awesome....


Why ? being allowed to cross to Cork from France on the 1/4 ton borrowed from the owner was a common (if rare) end of season "gift" for crews ;)

On the other hand, the rationale of this Ton cup format was to make sure that boats were not built too light !


Uffa Fox used to cross the channel in a sailing canoe ("To Brittany In Brynhild") or even in an international 14. 1/4 tonners aren't "that" small--arguably they aren't any smaller than Adlard Cole's original COHOE and he raced the snot out of that one all the way to Santander and back in gales...

#389 moody frog

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 04:24 PM



120 miles in a quarter tonner?

Jesus were thse lads brave or really stupid?

Cause that sounds awesome....


Why ? being allowed to cross to Cork from France on the 1/4 ton borrowed from the owner was a common (if rare) end of season "gift" for crews ;)

On the other hand, the rationale of this Ton cup format was to make sure that boats were not built too light !


Uffa Fox used to cross the channel in a sailing canoe ("To Brittany In Brynhild") or even in an international 14. 1/4 tonners aren't "that" small--arguably they aren't any smaller than Adlard Cole's original COHOE and he raced the snot out of that one all the way to Santander and back in gales...


Fully correct on all points, the funny aspect of your post is that Uffa's Brynhild voyage ended in my village !! the last beacon he passed is my avatar !
Of course I was not there ;) but he is well remembered in the village, for his appreciation of the hotel cellar !
Brynhild was shipped back from here by train.

#390 sledracr

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 05:14 PM


One key rationale was to increase sailing-length to improve beam-reach and downwind speed while ensuring the lowest % of measured sail-area (RSAP) compared to the actual sail area (see catboats and cascade).

Historically speaking, that is a no-win scenario. Unless you are building specifically for a downwind race (Transpac comes to mind...) the odds of getting an off-wind flier to the podium are stacked against you.


Yeah, although (and this is a very minor nit), back in the IOR daze the typical closed-course race was a triangle - typically Windward-Reach-Reach-Windward-Leeward-Windward, so... having a boat that [at the very least] wasn't horrid on the reaches and runs was important.

#391 some dude

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 05:23 PM



One key rationale was to increase sailing-length to improve beam-reach and downwind speed while ensuring the lowest % of measured sail-area (RSAP) compared to the actual sail area (see catboats and cascade).

Historically speaking, that is a no-win scenario. Unless you are building specifically for a downwind race (Transpac comes to mind...) the odds of getting an off-wind flier to the podium are stacked against you.


Yeah, although (and this is a very minor nit), back in the IOR daze the typical closed-course race was a triangle - typically Windward-Reach-Reach-Windward-Leeward-Windward, so... having a boat that [at the very least] wasn't horrid on the reaches and runs was important.


ahhh yes. The "bouy race" would be S-Pt Fermin Bouy-3TL-LB Entrance-F. then, next weekend, the Tri Island. nothing like beating the crap out of yourself and coming into Fish Harbor at 4am

#392 Presuming Ed

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 05:37 PM


120 miles in a quarter tonner?

Jesus were thse lads brave or really stupid?

Cause that sounds awesome....


Why ? being allowed to cross to Cork from France on the 1/4 ton borrowed from the owner was a common (if rare) end of season "gift" for crews ;)

On the other hand, the rationale of this Ton cup format was to make sure that boats were not built too light !


This crossed the Atlantic:

Posted Image

#393 sledracr

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 06:08 PM

ahhh yes. The "bouy race" would be S-Pt Fermin Bouy-3TL-LB Entrance-F. then, next weekend, the Tri Island. nothing like beating the crap out of yourself and coming into Fish Harbor at 4am


...and then coming to the LAYC dock, past newsboy on the finger, and learning that Deaver had been in for hours. Again.

#394 davidweil

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 06:27 PM

OK I posted a photo of our boat earlier in this thread but the discussion about offwind performance reminded me about this photo. Hurrah is one of the earlier Choate 40's - built in 1979 - and I think the lines of this boat - from the side - are among the prettiest of any boat ever drawn. A stern shot is another story. This photo of us motoring gives you a pretty good idea of why these boats are such a handful downwind. I can't imagine driving this boat to Hawaii. I know several of these boats did Transpac back in the day - but it must have been a wild ride.

Attached File  Hurrah_SternShot_Motoring.jpg   104.31K   29 downloads

#395 some dude

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 06:36 PM

ahhh yes. The "bouy race" would be S-Pt Fermin Bouy-3TL-LB Entrance-F. then, next weekend, the Tri Island. nothing like beating the crap out of yourself and coming into Fish Harbor at 4am


...and then coming to the LAYC dock, past newsboy on the finger, and learning that Deaver had been in for hours. Again.


...or Hurrah. all that wood down below, you give them half a foot, and there there's the boat, all buttoned up, crew's been home in bed for hours.

OK I posted a photo of our boat earlier in this thread but the discussion about offwind performance reminded me about this photo. Hurrah is one of the earlier Choate 40's - built in 1979 - and I think the lines of this boat - from the side - are among the prettiest of any boat ever drawn. A stern shot is another story. This photo of us motoring gives you a pretty good idea of why these boats are such a handful downwind. I can't imagine driving this boat to Hawaii. I know several of these boats did Transpac back in the day - but it must have been a wild ride.

Attached File  Hurrah_SternShot_Motoring.jpg   104.31K   29 downloads


wasn't so bad. there were scarier ones (the CF41 for starters)

#396 Sol

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 07:01 PM

Well, although they were not much fun to sail downwind to Hawaii, boats like Peterson 46's, Serendipity 43's, Choate 40's routinely placed very well overall-they had very good VMG DDW and won on corrected often. For sure, much more fun on a modern boat, and faster, but these boats did the job back then.

#397 sledracr

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 07:13 PM

it must have been a wild ride.

wasn't so bad. there were scarier ones (the CF41 for starters)


CF41s?!? those were pussycats compared to the choate-40s. Fiver was a dream off the wind, but the 40s would dig in and spin out on their own quarter-wake with pretty predictable regularity.

#398 davidweil

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 07:16 PM

Well, although they were not much fun to sail downwind to Hawaii, boats like Peterson 46's, Serendipity 43's, Choate 40's routinely placed very well overall-they had very good VMG DDW and won on corrected often. For sure, much more fun on a modern boat, and faster, but these boats did the job back then.


+1 on the DDW. We're not very successful in light air or in races with long reaching legs, particularly when the race includes a few sprit boats racing PHRF. But when we get up over around 12-14, we can turn DDW and cruise past all those guys with their big gybe angles.

#399 davidweil

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 07:17 PM

CF41s?!? those were pussycats compared to the choate-40s. Fiver was a dream off the wind, but the 40s would dig in and spin out on their own quarter-wake with pretty predictable regularity.


Ha! X100!

#400 moody frog

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Posted 26 September 2012 - 07:48 AM



120 miles in a quarter tonner?

Jesus were thse lads brave or really stupid?

Cause that sounds awesome....


Why ? being allowed to cross to Cork from France on the 1/4 ton borrowed from the owner was a common (if rare) end of season "gift" for crews ;)

On the other hand, the rationale of this Ton cup format was to make sure that boats were not built too light !


This crossed the Atlantic:

Posted Image


As did Jean Lacombe in the '60 OSTAR on a cold-moulded 21 footer and again in the '64 OSTAR on a GRP 21 footer.

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