481 replies to this topic

[Icedtea]

I'm young so I don't remember this era but was there any one IOR boat that was just so plain wrong?

Like it's shape, rig sails etc just made you wonder why?

The crazy hull shapes I saw got me thinking.....


Thanks,
Kevin

[woofwoof]

CASCADE, Jerry Milgram designer I think; bizarre rule beater cat ketch, not terribly attractive in hull shape, color, construction...

could still win races, though, under certain conditions

[sailman]

Denali

[ropetrick]

Denali

Do you mean the Nelson/Marek 68 that used to be Cheval?

[jww]

I recall a two tonner called Hawkeye that had some success but looked as you put it so wrong.I recall it having extremely reversed tumblehome and bilgeboards.

[Le Renard Subtil]

A guy I used to work for did the Lauderdale- KW on a bizarre Britton Chance design with very round bilges and a centerboard (not a keel-centerboard, just a centerboard). Chance was also aboard. At some point in the middle of the night they wiped out, and the boat stayed over, bobbing on its side like a Laser with the mast in the water. The whole crew climbed up over the side of the boat and stood on the centerboard......no dice. Jim (my former employer) asked "Sooooo..........Brit.......is it gonna come back up?"
He received a baffled shrug in reply, or words that conveyed that effect, I forget which.
I think they wound up dragging the main down (well, sideways toward the deck) and it came back up.

[SaylurMaine]

CASCADE, Jerry Milgram designer I think; bizarre rule beater cat ketch, not terribly attractive in hull shape, color, construction...

could still win races, though, under certain conditions

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1087128/1/index.htm

[Icedtea]

Is their any pics of these shitters?
Sorry but I'm curios

[SaylurMaine]

Is their any pics of these shitters?
Sorry but I'm curios

 Untitled.jpg   681.29K   1190 downloads

[Icedtea]

God that's bad... Is she still around or did somebody thankfully kill her?

[Bob Perry]

There was an Alan Payne design called JANZOON that looked like a python that had just swallowed a pig. You'd have to do some heavy research to come up with pics of that boat. I remember as a very youing man looking at this boat and thinking "This can't be right."

The Gurney designed Islander 41 was a bit of a weird looking boat and slow too.

Ray Richards designed a couple of alu IOR boats with chines up at the B station. He relicated the shape in a quarter tonner that sat accross from office for years. They were quite spectacular looking boats but all dogs.
As I recall one was called SQUAIP and the other RUNIING DOG. We called it RUNNING SORE. I could beat them in a Valiant 40.

[~HHN92~]

CASCADE, Jerry Milgram designer I think; bizarre rule beater cat ketch, not terribly attractive in hull shape, color, construction...

could still win races, though, under certain conditions

http://sportsillustr...128/1/index.htm

I think it would be hard to beat Cascade. She was ugly, but she could beat the best of them in the right conditions. I am not sure that there was a pretty line on her.

Menequita, I think the last production boat to win a major like the SORC.

[SaylurMaine]

God that's bad... Is she still around or did somebody thankfully kill her?

I have a vague recollection of seeing her on LIS in the early 80s, but I could be wrong.

[coggs]

>I recall a two tonner called Hawkeye that had some success but looked as you put it so wrong.I recall it having extremely reversed tumblehome and bilgeboards.<

Yea, but she was pretty sweetly laid-out below deck.

[woofwoof]

though I nominated CASCADE (great SI write up, SaylurMaine!) as the top IOR there has to be special mention of many Britt Chance designs for their strange and ugly oddnesses in appearance and performance (not only in IOR, but think of the 12 meter MARINER)

Le Renard gave us the great story of a Chance oddity, perhaps of... RESOLUTE SALMON? I think that was a Chance centerboarder...?

and Britt Chance and CASCADE's designer Jerry Milgram were consulting pals, natch

also, a nod to Bob Derecktor; he had a bunch of boats he designed and built that were very strange and unique and not completely unattractive if you like sea-going tanks...their names all started with SALTY... (TIGER, GOOSE)

There are pictures of a number of these strange boats over on Larry's thread "Some of my old sailing pictures..."

[zerothehero]

I crewed on Denali as a junior. Almost got kicked out of JYRALIS for a funnelator stunt we pulled during the Dorade. The boat was originally a sloop if I remember correct. then converted to a cat ketch as a possible rule beater. I did the Dorade and the Beach Point Overnight on it. That forward boom was a real deck sweeper. Don't be in the way. BTW she also won the Bermuda race and many of the crew plus owner were friends of my Dad's. He also owned an ORMA tri I think.

[silent bob]

Cascade:

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[zerothehero]

oh, and the owner (Denali) climbed Everest (twice). As the oldest man at the time. He didn't summit but got closer that any of the "experts" here ever will. Like, within 500 feet. As a kid I always liked him.

[Laker]

There was this 1/4 tonner at the world's in Sweden (just don't ask me the year) that was completely round. It had, as I remember, twin daggerboards and twin rudders. It was registered, went out in a practise race and its entry withdrawn. It spent the rest of the series as a spectator boat. Wish I could find the pictures I took. Only thing like it was a Russian battleship from the Victorian era. Again, completely round.

[pasta514]

I'm young so I don't remember this era but was there any one IOR boat that was just so plain wrong?

Like it's shape, rig sails etc just made you wonder why?

The crazy hull shapes I saw got me thinking.....


Thanks,
Kevin

No, as noted by the multiple replies there was not just one.


IOR blows.... hard.

[Mud sailor]

I think Fazisi also deserves a mention here

[ducky]

I think Fazisi also deserves a mention here

wasn't that a Russian sub?

[Bob Perry]

I think the crew thought so.

[Icedtea]

What did fazisi look like?

[jhc]

What did fazisi look like?

Fasizi looked like the last nyyc ac challenger...after it broke in half in the hauraki gulf.

[Bob Perry]

I have a book written by the designer Vladislav Murnikov, my pal Vlad, called RACE TO FREEDOM. It's a great book.
FAZISI had sort of a pronounced sheer and a flush deck. It was very interesting looking and not ugly. The project was plagued by lack of funds and I would say FAZISI was not a typical IOR boat.

[dash34]

The second generation C&C 38 was a real dog. The underbody had an angled flat surface forward of the keel that could do nothing but create a lot of drag. Not as radical as some of the wierd ones here but definitely deserves mention.

I knew an owner of an old 38 that upgraded, and was so disappointed in the new boat (clearly slower than the old one on all points of sail) that he became disillusioned and dropped out of racing.

dash

[Maxx Baqustae]

The oddest IOR design that I ever saw was a 3/4 ton by Whiting ( I think) in the late '70's in cold mold called "Riotous Assembly". It had a flat section at the bow where the bow knuckle should be; it was below the waterline. It had extreme bow down trim - to the point the transom pointed in the air. It had a mid engine exhaust coming out the side to finish the effect. There was a lot more weirdness with it that I can't recall.It was like a bad acid trip that somebody built a boat out of it. We were doing a delivery to Swiftsure at RVicYC one night and we found this boat at the guest dock. It was dark and I ll I could say was: WTF!!!

It was a windy start that year (30 knots) and that boat started, then retired due to breakage. I never ever heard about that boat again. I think I have a pic or two of that boat somewhere.

Some designs I've seen have had some strangeness but that boat took the cake.

[Maxx Baqustae]

The second generation C&C 38 was a real dog. The underbody had an angled flat surface forward of the keel that could do nothing but create a lot of drag. Not as radical as some of the wierd ones here but definitely deserves mention.

I knew an owner of an old 38 that upgraded, and was so disappointed in the new boat (clearly slower than the old one on all points of sail) that he became disillusioned and dropped out of racing.

dash

Yup. Don't get me started with that design. What were Ball & Co. thinking?

[radicalmove]

As long as your on C&C, I see no
one brought up the Mega 30. I
have no idea what C&C and Peter
Barrett were thinking. And it
rated over 1 ton at the time.

[in_TO]

An email sent to me

"Backlash" designed by Julian Everitt.

It was owned by __ and __ _____, from Burnham on Crouch, England.

Boat was 43’ long—almost no freeboard and had a canard. Rated a bit above 2 ton. In the 33s or 34s as I recall... Boat was way too fast in a breeze... underpowered in the light... When they got back to England, they kept the headsails and jacked up the main hoist by about 12 or 15 feet... that made it much better all round.

[Bob Perry]

Max:
I remember Riotous very well. It was an extremely poor build job and a very unfair hull. It looked like a sack full of marbles. I would not blame Whiting for that boat. The builder clearly had no idea what he was doing.

[in_TO]

What did fazisi look like?

It had (has? -- I crawled around the boat when it was in Toronto about two years ago) a ski-ramp bow, like the British and Russian aircraft carriers.





Google is your friend
http://www.google.ca/images?hl=en&xhr=t&q=fazisi&cp=5&um=1&ie=UTF-8&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&biw=1280&bih=619

[zerothehero]

wasn't Fazisi a Whitbread Boat?

[Bob Perry]

Yes, FAZISI was in the 1989 Whitbread.
I'm not sure if Vlad's book is still available but it's a damn good read, RACE TO FREEDOM, 7 Seas Publishing.

[Steam Flyer]

As long as your on C&C, I see no
one brought up the Mega 30. I
have no idea what C&C and Peter
Barrett were thinking. And it
rated over 1 ton at the time.

I don't think the Mega 30 was designed to the IOR rule; IIRC it was supposed to be a trailerable min-sled. I've never sailed one but have raced against one in PHRF, seemed to be an OK but not great boat.

FB- Doug

[Recidivist]

There was an Alan Payne design called JANZOON that looked like a python that had just swallowed a pig. You'd have to do some heavy research to come up with pics of that boat. I remember as a very youing man looking at this boat and thinking "This can't be right."

Bob, if I'm thinking of the same Janzoon by Alan Payne, she was waay before IOR. In fact she was the first fibreglass boat built in Australia sometime in the early 60's. 42' long IIRC and followed on from his somewhat more attractive Tasman Seabird / Koonya designs.

My vote has to go the hideous creation called the Chatham 40. West Australians may have seen this abomination - I'm sure there were never any more built after the first one. Kim Swarbrick, who designed some attractive boats, was convinced this Chatham 40 was a winner and spent heaps readying it for production. It certainly had a bit of everything, from masses of tumblehome to a transom that was pointed on the bottom and no more that 1 foot wide at deck level. Yeccch!

[Keysrock35]

As long as your on C&C, I see no
one brought up the Mega 30. I
have no idea what C&C and Peter
Barrett were thinking. And it
rated over 1 ton at the time.

I don't think the Mega 30 was designed to the IOR rule; IIRC it was supposed to be a trailerable min-sled. I've never sailed one but have raced against one in PHRF, seemed to be an OK but not great boat.

FB- Doug

Great example of what is wrong with designs by committee. Has everything and does nothing well.

[Laserty]

Fazisi will be racing this years Chi Mac... according to the entries. I have been on board... Talk about a fiberglass coffin in the southern ocean. (or carbon... I don't claim to know)

[Remodel]

Fazisi will be racing this years Chi Mac... according to the entries. I have been on board... Talk about a fiberglass coffin in the southern ocean. (or carbon... I don't claim to know)

Aluminum.

It looks like it was built in a failing Russian naval shipyard. Oh wait, it was.

Don't know about today, but it was originally powered by an old Soviet tractor engine, small marine diesels being in short supply. The fuel lines leaked, and the entire inside of he boat was soaked in fuel oil. Don't ask me how I know!

Still, there were good times to be had on the boat with the right crew.

[Ballast Technician]

The oddest IOR design that I ever saw was a 3/4 ton by Whiting ( I think) in the late '70's in cold mold called "Riotous Assembly". It had a flat section at the bow where the bow knuckle should be; it was below the waterline. It had extreme bow down trim - to the point the transom pointed in the air. It had a mid engine exhaust coming out the side to finish the effect. There was a lot more weirdness with it that I can't recall.It was like a bad acid trip that somebody built a boat out of it. We were doing a delivery to Swiftsure at RVicYC one night and we found this boat at the guest dock. It was dark and I ll I could say was: WTF!!!

It was a windy start that year (30 knots) and that boat started, then retired due to breakage. I never ever heard about that boat again. I think I have a pic or two of that boat somewhere.

Some designs I've seen have had some strangeness but that boat took the cake.

Like this one on the ex-Team Origin TP?

[Somebody Else]

I'm with Maxx Baqustae on early Whiting designs in general. Those and early Farr and Davidson boats were hitting the corners of the rule with baseball bats and brass knuckles!

Those designs remind me of the images below, turned upside-down.

[P_Wop]

The extraordinary Italian designed Mino Simeone produced some of the strangest (and slowest) IOR sterns in the early 80s. Here's one of his 3/4 tonners.

[coxcreek]

Sure, cascade was one of the ugliest hulls ever ... but the rig was interesting ... and the boat was fast and therefore very much pissed off everyone. But Fazisi was a good looking boat...except it had too much sheer and buried amidships when sailing in fresh/heavy conditions. That was a mistake but nevertheless, the boat had a classy look. In Auckland, many of the hot designers here took a lot of interest in Britton Chance designs, especially Resolute Salmon which won the OTC. Seems that the e-spurts here enjoy dissing the unusual, but innovative designs; some work and some don't ... but said computer chair designers wouldn't know the difference between horse defecation and chewed dates.

[Somebody Else]

Cascade was interesting. If you took down and furled the main you would have a reasonable sloop sailplan.

Cascade was definitely held back by the hull. The design was not very good plus the build (and fairness) was of the "sack of marbles" school. Looked like a backyard ferro-cement job.

[moody frog]

The extraordinary Italian designed Mino Simeone produced some of the strangest (and slowest) IOR sterns in the early 80s. Here's one of his 3/4 tonners.

I don't know from when this boat is, probably late 70s early 80's, actually those sterns came from the early readings of the IOR for light dspl boats. I first saw it on the J/N 3/4 ton centreboarder Drakkar in '77 and we had it on a '78 1/2 ton (I'll resist posting a pic of it in this thread as I quite liked the boat). Designers then moved to something as effective and more acceptable to the eye.

[coxcreek]

The joubert/Nivelt Drakkar, no way could you call that an ugly boat, unless you were locked into ultra traditional, long keel designs; Drakkar looked very stealth-like and radical ... and it was also very light, had a daggerboard and was very fast. If I remember correctly Drakkar would have won the 3/4 ton that year with a string of firsts and high placings - but lost the rig in the last race. The Farr Joe Louis won with no wins but consistently high placings.

[moody frog]

The joubert/Nivelt Drakkar, no way could you call that an ugly boat, unless you were locked into ultra traditional, long keel designs; Drakkar looked very stealth-like and radical ... and it was also very light, had a daggerboard and was very fast. If I remember correctly Drakkar would have won the 3/4 ton that year with a string of firsts and high placings - but lost the rig in the last race. The Farr Joe Louis won with no wins but consistently high placings.

Drakkar: My point was the stern still (without being a "classics" lover): she was not pretty - probably not helped by zero cosmetic effort.

She was fast in some points of sails but was never in the run at the 3/4 ton, I hv not kept the race to race detail but we were there and vying for top spot and she was not so much on our list of boats to watch. Not too good upwind, their forte with an excellent dinghy crew, usually had been planing in strong winds, but .... they had been set-back when they capsized 30 miles offshore in the french trials and had to climb on the daggerboard ++++, in strong winds.

Joe Louis was always there, being one of the only two to properly navigate and find the buoy in the last race, they won.
The Berret "Oesophage Boogie" was clearly the best boat.

My memory fail, but I don't think Drakkar may have dismasted in the last race which was a light wind affair.

[DickDastardly]

There was an Alan Payne design called JANZOON that looked like a python that had just swallowed a pig. You'd have to do some heavy research to come up with pics of that boat. I remember as a very youing man looking at this boat and thinking "This can't be right."

The Gurney designed Islander 41 was a bit of a weird looking boat and slow too.

Ray Richards designed a couple of alu IOR boats with chines up at the B station. He relicated the shape in a quarter tonner that sat accross from office for years. They were quite spectacular looking boats but all dogs.
As I recall one was called SQUAIP and the other RUNIING DOG. We called it RUNNING SORE. I could beat them in a Valiant 40

JANZOONB is aliv and well and berthed at the RPAYC in Sydney and well looked after. Historic boat but yes, pfugly...

[coxcreek]

That sounds more correct, Moody Frog - I was getting mixed up with the Berret designed Oesophage Boogie - but I've always liked those long raking sterns which make perfect sense in keeping stern sections weight down.
Just checked some old papers, Joe Louis won the second Olympic course so I was wrong there too. - Boogie was 4th, Drakkar 5th. Drakkar lost her rig in the short offshore where Boogie won, Boogie also won the first Olympic, In the second off shore Boogie, Drakkar and Joe Louis took over in the fresher winds but dropped back when the winds went patchy. Overall Boogie came in 6th but was considered the fastest boat there. Drakkar and Joe Louis were the lightest boats with IOR displacements of around 2850kgs..

[moody frog]

That sounds more correct, Moody Frog - I was getting mixed up with the Berret designed Oesophage Boogie - but I've always liked those long raking sterns which make perfect sense in keeping stern sections weight down.
Just checked some old papers, Joe Louis won the second Olympic course so I was wrong there too. - Boogie was 4th, Drakkar 5th. Drakkar lost her rig in the short offshore where Boogie won, Boogie also won the first Olympic, In the second off shore Boogie, Drakkar and Joe Louis took over in the fresher winds but dropped back when the winds went patchy. Overall Boogie came in 6th but was considered the fastest boat there. Drakkar and Joe Louis were the lightest boats with IOR displacements of around 2850kgs..

Just checked too I had forgotten that Drakkar had dismasted in the 80 miles offshore, that's more likely and probably why they waned out of our radar for the rest of the cup.

Results were: 1- Joe Louis (4,1,2,6,7) 2- Argento Vivo (5,13,4,13,1) 3- Samsara (2,3,8,4,5)... 5- Oesophage Boogie (1,4,1,1,18).... 10- Drakkar (6,5,AB,3,17) Offshore races (unedrlined) had coefficients and not finding the buoy in the last offshore which was the case for everybody, bar Argento Vivo, Regolo and Nadia, cost dear.

Offshore navigation induced "non speed" aspects and looking at the olympic course results it would have been OB 6pts, Samsara 9pts, Joe-Louis 11pts, Drakkar 14pts which is more like what I remember from the water.

I had also forgottenthat Argento Vivo went from 5th to 4th in the medium offshore for assistance to Drakkar.

I'll try and scan a few pics after work.

[Laker]

The oddest IOR design that I ever saw was a 3/4 ton by Whiting ( I think) in the late '70's in cold mold called "Riotous Assembly". It had a flat section at the bow where the bow knuckle should be; it was below the waterline. It had extreme bow down trim - to the point the transom pointed in the air. It had a mid engine exhaust coming out the side to finish the effect. There was a lot more weirdness with it that I can't recall.It was like a bad acid trip that somebody built a boat out of it. We were doing a delivery to Swiftsure at RVicYC one night and we found this boat at the guest dock. It was dark and I ll I could say was: WTF!!!

It was a windy start that year (30 knots) and that boat started, then retired due to breakage. I never ever heard about that boat again. I think I have a pic or two of that boat somewhere.

Some designs I've seen have had some strangeness but that boat took the cake.

Having sailed on the boat a bit, it actually sailed fairly well. If the ballasted centre-board was raised down wind in breeze, it was a bit nervous-making, but it was well behaved in relation to some other designs I could mention. Unfortunately, after some changes to the rule, the winches and rig came off the boat and it became a garden structure.

[moody frog]

Here you are "coxcreek" : Drakkar

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[moody frog]

One more from Drakkar + Oesophage Boogie

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[Maxx Baqustae]

Max:
I remember Riotous very well. It was an extremely poor build job and a very unfair hull. It looked like a sack full of marbles. I would not blame Whiting for that boat. The builder clearly had no idea what he was doing.

Absolutely Bob - that boat was poorly executed but the design was "fringe" at best. That "flat" sections in that pic of Juan K's design ( with tanks from Ballast Tech's post) is close to it but the bow was even flatter. Maybe it could have been an "okay' sailing boat but it vanished from the scene. There was no Riotous Assembly perpetual award for all the races it won. Boats like that had tried to bend the rule. And boats like that never really got into the mainstream. Once in awhile a design makes a mark but it's an exception not the rule. Maybe Whiting didn't sign off completely on that design. Owners and so called builder can make changes; it does happen. I'll suspect it happens a lot.

I'm no expert of yacht design, not like yourself, but there's still part of my addled brain says that boat/design just doesn't look right from the outset. Or a design/build that just looks "right" - with no real wierdness. It happens but I'm a "show me" guy when it comes to that sort of things. Rating rules or no rating rules. I'm sure you can agree with that to some degree?

[Bob Perry]

Max:
I'm not sure I'm an expert anymore either. Maybe in my little world of cruising boats.
Yes, that design was weird and the build was even weirder.
That builder built one of my boats, a two tonner, and I had to tell the client that it was the worst built boat to my designs I had ever seen. The boat was delaminating while they were building it!

I think it was Starling Burgess who said "If it looks right it is right."

[coxcreek]

Thanks Moody, to my eye those two French designs are good looking boats, ahead of their time and far less distorted than Paul Whiting's designs here - but all this negative stuff about Riotous Assembly; that boat was not dissimilar to Smackwater Jack, and many thought Smackwater was an excellent looking boat (and also very fast sailed by Murray Ross, Whiting and co). If you want to look at distortion (and very courageous and clever distortion) look at Whiting's Newspaper Taxi. Twisted or not, that boat was a champion, again sailed by Ross and co.

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[Bob Perry]

ox:
I never knocked the design. My beef was with the way it was built.
And as much as I like the old IOR I look at those Whiting sections and think "Shit! Is that the shape of speed?" Rated speed maybe. But in the end all rules end up creating freaks.

[greasy al]

One more from Drakkar + Oesophage Boogie

How much did Oesophage weigh? I know I'm a hack and that maybe it's the angle of the photo, but there doesn't seem to be much boat in the water.

Always been a fan of that Whiting style of design, subject to the caveat that you need a team of A-graders to make it work and you don't go to far offshore....

[phdrunkard]

All IOR designs are disturbing. Just sail any IOR yacht down wind in a blow and you will know the deal. The only word that comes to mind is BUMPS (non genitals).

[Recidivist]

All IOR designs are disturbing.

Have to disagree. This is an IOR design. I always wondered how the UFO design could work so well. It's not "wrong", but the mast is a long way aft and the keel is well forward. The deepest part of the canoe body is at the aft of the keel, huge separation between keel and rudder (for 1970) - and of course, there's the buttocks shape at the waterline! But the end result is a thing of beauty, vice-free and a 3/4 ton world champion to boot. Timeless elegance.

[coxcreek]

hey phdrunkard, you're probably right about fat but narrow sterned IOR designs being pigs downwind - but the wide stern, IOR lightweights like those from Farr, Whiting, Davidson, Young, Berret, Joubert/Nivelt and others ... were just big dinghies downwind and had none of the problems of the conventional design of the day; that is, if they didn't set kites in 50 knots wind, which a number did in Auckland during the OTC of '77..

[moody frog]

Thanks Moody, to my eye those two French designs are good looking boats, ahead of their time and far less distorted than Paul Whiting's designs here - but all this negative stuff about Riotous Assembly; that boat was not dissimilar to Smackwater Jack, and many thought Smackwater was an excellent looking boat (and also very fast sailed by Murray Ross, Whiting and co). If you want to look at distortion (and very courageous and clever distortion) look at Whiting's Newspaper Taxi. Twisted or not, that boat was a champion, again sailed by Ross and co.

Your reference to Newspaper Taxi, is quite adequate. Jean-Marie Danielou the excellent sailor and Z-Spars manager, behind Drakkar, had mounted a challenge for the '76 QTC in a Ollier centreboarder. It is obvious that he had looked closely at Magic Bus; a very good 505 and FD sailor himself he must have been pretty much in line with Murray Ross.

Besides all the IOR tweaking, that era was that of the top notch Dinghy sailors coming offshore and it showed !!!

[moody frog]

All IOR designs are disturbing.

Have to disagree. This is an IOR design. I always wondered how the UFO design could work so well. It's not "wrong", but the mast is a long way aft and the keel is well forward. The deepest part of the canoe body is at the aft of the keel, huge separation between keel and rudder (for 1970) - and of course, there's the buttocks shape at the waterline! But the end result is a thing of beauty, vice-free and a 3/4 ton world champion to boot. Timeless elegance.

This is a very early IOR design, The prototype, extremely well sailed by Richard Matthews of Oyster, did very well in the RORC races of the first half of 70's but ..... against S&S 34, Harlé Romanées and Illingworth designs - RORC rule archeology - and not that much in front !! nor always first.
As soon as the Holland Nic 33, Peterson Contention 33 came in, the UFO's were dead and things worthened with new designs coming in.
No need to say they never won the 3/4 TC.

Edit: they remain very pleasing to the eye.

[The Dude]

Does anyone in the PNW remember a boat called "Royal Rose"? What ever happened to that POS.

Maxx?

[Bob Perry]

I remember IRISH ROSE and it is racing again and looking quite good.

[Schnick]

Another wacky one: (2 posts)

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[Schnick]

And the rest. This one was for sale recently as a project. Keels had been removed I think.

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[CrushDigital]

Another wacky one: (2 posts)

That is one large rudder hanging off the back. I do like the centerline trough for the pole though.

[sledracr]

And the rest. This one was for sale recently as a project. Keels had been removed I think.

Oh, man.... all those years of therapy, I had *finally* worked through my memories of that ankle-breaking trough in the middle of that foredeck, the nightmares have faded... and you bring up pictures. Thanks for that! <lol>

That thing was a killer... anytime there was a sail on the bow - like, just after a rounding - you had to remember there was this 12" deep, slippery, round-bottomed slot in the middle of the deck, "somewhere" under the sailcloth, just begging you to stick your foot in it. Plus the pole tip was always in the way of tack fittings, jib cunny, etc. Ugh. Great idea in concept, but lots of reasons it didn't "catch on".

[Bob Perry]

I think those Bruce King daggerboarders HAWKEYE and TERRORIST were very cool boats. They were fast. They had asymetrical boards. I think the IOR MAF did them in. One of them sat in Shilshole marina for a few years as a live aboard.

[sledracr]

I think those Bruce King daggerboarders HAWKEYE and TERRORIST were very cool boats. They were fast. One of them sat in Shilshole marina for a fedw years as a live aboard.

I thought they were pretty cool, too. Rocket-fast in the right conditions, especially upwind - the toed-in boards gave them a few degrees more "point" than anyone else out there. A little "interesting" DDW with both boards pulled up, though.

[herbie verstinx]

I think those Bruce King daggerboarders HAWKEYE and TERRORIST were very cool boats. They were fast. One of them sat in Shilshole marina for a fedw years as a live aboard.

I thought they were pretty cool, too. Rocket-fast in the right conditions, especially upwind - the toed-in boards gave them a few degrees more "point" than anyone else out there. A little "interesting" DDW with both boards pulled up, though.

was a fun boat to sail. last owner (circa mid '80s) turned it into a party barge. had a nice interior. there was a story of her at bbs where smaller boats followed her into the shore and ran aground while they kept going.  hawkeye 2.jpg   27.97K   162 downloads  hawkeye.jpg   35.81K   164 downloads  hawkeye 4.jpg   39.68K   101 downloads  hawkeye 3.jpg   14.31K   44 downloads

[Maxx Baqustae]

ox:
I never knocked the design. My beef was with the way it was built.
And as much as I like the old IOR I look at those Whiting sections and think "Shit! Is that the shape of speed?" Rated speed maybe. But in the end all rules end up creating freaks.

I'm with you Bob.

Nothing against Whiting, there's a ton of boats that had a better idea, some of them were right out there. For rating purposes and that's about it.

If Freddy Fudpucker N.A. designed the boat it would still be odd. Riotous was still suffering of bad build and an odd design that completes the package.

There's lots of mainstream designers that got involved with a suspect builder. Once the thing has been built and the builder disappears it's still their name in a lot of cases. A lot of them from one hit wonders. And a lot of them from the worst of the IOR era as well.

[Bob Perry]

When my client sued the builder the builder's defence was "Perry told him it was the worst boat he had seen built to his designs. He should have stopped me there."
I am not making that up. The judge thru the case out of court after about 20 minutes. It gave me tremendous respect the the Canadian court.
I was so happy I gave my Canadian attorney a fake Rolex watch.
All in all the whole affair was sad.
Some day over a beer or two I'l tell you the entire story.

In defence of the builder I'll say those extreme IOR boats were a bitch to build in cold molded constrcution. Wood just does not want to bend like that.
But my little quarter tonner UNION JACK is cold molded, highly shaped and still in marvelous condition in Seattle.

[Schnick]

Mull IOR special... Not his best work.

Attached Files

•  Carrot.jpg   205.27K   371 downloads

[Maxx Baqustae]

Does anyone in the PNW remember a boat called "Royal Rose"? What ever happened to that POS.

Maxx?

Ah yes, the infamous Royal Rose. Another fine Grimwood design! I think it was built with a type strip planking. I don't know - I never got close to it in the yard as the smell of mold that would get ya from half a block away. It was full of water for years and it was seeping from the inside out. I haven't seen it lately but the last time I saw it someone was painting it. With a roller. In latex it seems. I think it hogged in the stands and I guess it was dumpster material. No point of burning it - you'd never get it lit!

The builder was also involved with the Ariel 48. Another boat was doomed to outset. It's still hanging around somewhere. Never finished.

The same guy was involved with this:

 Locura 4.bmp   900.05K   483 downloads

Locura.

[Icedtea]

Ugh I just got sick

[P_Wop]

When my client sued the builder the builder's defence was "Perry told him it was the worst boat he had seen built to his designs. He should have stopped me there."
I am not making that up. The judge thru the case out of court after about 20 minutes. It gave me tremendous respect the the Canadian court.
I was so happy I gave my Canadian attorney a fake Rolex watch.
All in all the whole affair was sad.
Some day over a beer or two I'l tell you the entire story.

In defence of the builder I'll say those extreme IOR boats were a bitch to build in cold molded constrcution. Wood just does not want to bend like that.
But my little quarter tonner UNION JACK is cold molded, highly shaped and still in marvelous condition in Seattle.

When Joyce Brothers were building Marionette (pic earlier this thread) for Chris Dunning in 1977, they looked at the drawings around the aft inner girth stations and told Mr Holland: "We simply can't bend aluminium into that sort of shape." But they did.

And the rest, as they say, is history. Part of the winning UK team in AC 77, then sold to Piet Vroon and became the first Formidable. Truly good boat, so it was used as the base design for the second Ron Holland Swan, the 441. The first Holland Swan was of course the 39, based on Imp. Also a pretty good boat. ;-)

[Recidivist]

This is a very early IOR design, The prototype, extremely well sailed by Richard Matthews of Oyster, did very well in the RORC races of the first half of 70's but ..... against S&S 34, Harlé Romanées and Illingworth designs - RORC rule archeology - and not that much in front !! nor always first.
As soon as the Holland Nic 33, Peterson Contention 33 came in, the UFO's were dead and things worthened with new designs coming in.
No need to say they never won the 3/4 TC.

Edit: they remain very pleasing to the eye.

Dingo, a UFO 34, won the World 3/4 TC in 1970 or 1972 IIRC. If my memory serves, Richard Matthews' boat UFO was a pre-production 32' version. He set up Oyster yachts to produce the 34' production version and Dingo was one of those. It was the very early days of IOR as you say.

[SPORTSCAR]

There was an Alan Payne design called JANZOON that looked like a python that had just swallowed a pig. You'd have to do some heavy research to come up with pics of that boat. I remember as a very youing man looking at this boat and thinking "This can't be right."

The Gurney designed Islander 41 was a bit of a weird looking boat and slow too.

Ray Richards designed a couple of alu IOR boats with chines up at the B station. He relicated the shape in a quarter tonner that sat accross from office for years. They were quite spectacular looking boats but all dogs.
As I recall one was called SQUAIP and the other RUNIING DOG. We called it RUNNING SORE. I could beat them in a Valiant 40.

Janzoon had a sister ship here in Melbourne, at Royal Brighton YC. From (distant) memory she was called Rage; probably after the owners demeanour when he first saw it come out of the molds.I do have a photo of her in an old book somewhere and she would have to have been just about the ugliest yacht ever built under any rating rule. Fine bow, extremely fat middle and fine tapered stern with a narrow extended transom. Slower than the second coming iirc

[Bob Perry]

Sportscar:
That would be the boat. Boa constrictor eating a pig look. That's theboat I had in mind.
Dig out a pic of it and get it digitized.
I'd love to see it.

[DRIFTW00D]

A little boat called Spad ? comes to mind it was varnished wood about 27 feet . In '85 the big blow year it was in the Black River before the BYC Mac. It had a pair of outboard pipe steering platforms in the aft end over and outside a cigar shaped hull. She never made it to the finish neather did 75% of the flee that year I'm not sure of its design rule IOR or MORC. It looked ugly and wet, nice combo .

[Change]

I think Janzoon II was the first fibreglass yacht built in OZ I believe the hull was over a inch thick. did the 65 Hobart, beaten home by yachts smaller than her

There was an Alan Payne design called JANZOON that looked like a python that had just swallowed a pig. You'd have to do some heavy research to come up with pics of that boat. I remember as a very youing man looking at this boat and thinking "This can't be right."

The Gurney designed Islander 41 was a bit of a weird looking boat and slow too.

Ray Richards designed a couple of alu IOR boats with chines up at the B station. He relicated the shape in a quarter tonner that sat accross from office for years. They were quite spectacular looking boats but all dogs.
As I recall one was called SQUAIP and the other RUNIING DOG. We called it RUNNING SORE. I could beat them in a Valiant 40.

Janzoon had a sister ship here in Melbourne, at Royal Brighton YC. From (distant) memory she was called Rage; probably after the owners demeanour when he first saw it come out of the molds.I do have a photo of her in an old book somewhere and she would have to have been just about the ugliest yacht ever built under any rating rule. Fine bow, extremely fat middle and fine tapered stern with a narrow extended transom. Slower than the second coming iirc

[Somtam Cowboy]

Thanks Moody, to my eye those two French designs are good looking boats, ahead of their time and far less distorted than Paul Whiting's designs here - but all this negative stuff about Riotous Assembly; that boat was not dissimilar to Smackwater Jack, and many thought Smackwater was an excellent looking boat (and also very fast sailed by Murray Ross, Whiting and co). If you want to look at distortion (and very courageous and clever distortion) look at Whiting's Newspaper Taxi. Twisted or not, that boat was a champion, again sailed by Ross and co.

Wow, that brought back some memories.
Remember as a kid when Smackwater sank coming back from Oz with Paul Whiting onboard.
No trace at all of boat or crew.
Straight down the mine.
Sad day in NZ.
Kiwi designs and sailing in general rocked back then...

[moody frog]

This is a very early IOR design, The prototype, extremely well sailed by Richard Matthews of Oyster, did very well in the RORC races of the first half of 70's but ..... against S&S 34, Harlé Romanées and Illingworth designs - RORC rule archeology - and not that much in front !! nor always first.
As soon as the Holland Nic 33, Peterson Contention 33 came in, the UFO's were dead and things worthened with new designs coming in.
No need to say they never won the 3/4 TC.

Edit: they remain very pleasing to the eye.

Dingo, a UFO 34, won the World 3/4 TC in 1970 or 1972 IIRC. If my memory serves, Richard Matthews' boat UFO was a pre-production 32' version. He set up Oyster yachts to produce the 34' production version and Dingo was one of those. It was the very early days of IOR as you say.

I might be wrong. Was it a 3/4 ton in 70 or 72 ? I always thought the first one was '74 in the US (Florida ??) can't remember who won though. That was when the Nic 33 appeared as a Quest (?) 32 triggering C&N to buy the mould, and where the Morgan 33 got some fame.

So UFO was 32', could be, there was an other one-off (I think from Holman too) with similar performance called Polar Bear.

Nice memories: you helped me re-live a thrilling spinnaker run from the British shore to Cherbourg in the Channel Race, mile after mile, side by side with UFO and Polar Bear, with the added fun of our Illingworth alternatively dipping the boom end and pole end at a rather fast rythm, two people on the tiller.

[thetruth]

Thanks Moody, to my eye those two French designs are good looking boats, ahead of their time and far less distorted than Paul Whiting's designs here - but all this negative stuff about Riotous Assembly; that boat was not dissimilar to Smackwater Jack, and many thought Smackwater was an excellent looking boat (and also very fast sailed by Murray Ross, Whiting and co). If you want to look at distortion (and very courageous and clever distortion) look at Whiting's Newspaper Taxi. Twisted or not, that boat was a champion, again sailed by Ross and co.

Wow, that brought back some memories.
Remember as a kid when Smackwater sank coming back from Oz with Paul Whiting onboard.
No trace at all of boat or crew.
Straight down the mine.
Sad day in NZ.
Kiwi designs and sailing in general rocked back then...

I was just behind the that era but got to sail with Murray Ross, Graeme Woodroffe, Ross Guiniven and all those guys. If there was ever an era that reinforced what we have now then it was these guys. No problem standing on the centreboard on a 36 footer and getting it up and going hard again

[WarBird]

One of these showed up inthe slip next to me this last year. Dagger board, hard chines, ballast pour in the floors arround the daggerboard trunk. Owner is working on refit, nice start so far, Interior bare and repainted. Some new deck rigging, lot's of elbowgrease in the boat already, showed up for a couple of races at the end of the year. Nice white hull with sharks teeth at the bow. Mid 70's Irwin comp 30 1/2ton.

Attached Files

•  irwincomp30.jpg   89.93K   287 downloads

[JohnCollins]

The vertical height aft difference (VHAI-VHA) and the aft freeboard could be played with to fake out the L computation. This is one of the things that Jerry Milgram did to an extreme. It looked like a big shark took a bite out of the boat. He convinced a couple of owners to have their stock boats, Stan Livingston's Etchells-Pearson 46 and a Westy Adam's C+C 35, modified. Both were slowed down more than the rating decrease indicated.

Jerry always pushed the limit. He had problems in one design with a Thistle that was a little long and with an Interclub dinghy centerboard.

During his student years, Jerry was making applejack in his dorm room. He went home for Christmas break. When he returned he found the room a mess as he neglected to vent the keg.

[moody frog]

Thanks Moody, to my eye those two French designs are good looking boats, ahead of their time and far less distorted than Paul Whiting's designs here - but all this negative stuff about Riotous Assembly; that boat was not dissimilar to Smackwater Jack, and many thought Smackwater was an excellent looking boat (and also very fast sailed by Murray Ross, Whiting and co). If you want to look at distortion (and very courageous and clever distortion) look at Whiting's Newspaper Taxi. Twisted or not, that boat was a champion, again sailed by Ross and co.

Wow, that brought back some memories.
Remember as a kid when Smackwater sank coming back from Oz with Paul Whiting onboard.
No trace at all of boat or crew.
Straight down the mine.
Sad day in NZ.
Kiwi designs and sailing in general rocked back then...

I was just behind the that era but got to sail with Murray Ross, Graeme Woodroffe, Ross Guiniven and all those guys. If there was ever an era that reinforced what we have now then it was these guys. No problem standing on the centreboard on a 36 footer and getting it up and going hard again

I agree: the change in sailing stance was as dramatic if not more than the rule changes.
Totally different crew attitude, mast and main trimming becoming king, foredeck much much simpler, crew-weight necessary to any stability not just adjusting it.
As much as quick obsolescence, this marked the end for a number of owners who could no longer take their buddies along.
Those boats had to be sailed in a very "dynamic way" and, as a backfire, these were very difficult boats once wind and waves were too strong to keep "sailing", as we learned the hard way: without power they were no shelter at all, no way to hove-to or run warps.
Conditions which seldom happen, but when they do ...

[Gingerbread]

Downunder Kell Steinman designed some of the most distorted IOR designs I can remember. If I recall correctly he was based in Melbourne and one the more successful designs was a boat named 'Predator', a half tonner I think. Sportscar might have more info? Anyone have pics?

[radicalmove]

Warbird- There were versions of that Irwin that
had 3 boards in them; Center/daggerboard and 2
bilge boards. The rule finally hit it with
a huge penalty, and owners were taking chainsaws
to get rid of the bilgeboards.

[Maxx Baqustae]

Mull IOR special... Not his best work.

Ahh.....Schnick. Are you busting my chops mate? lol.

I helped build a Mull design in 77/78 in aluminum. The same raked & pointy transom. It was radical in the day. There were two very similar boats called Vanpire and one Swampfire. Both them 3/4 world's champs. The boat we built was sans the Mull tumblehome that were prevalent then. Our fabricator/engineer decided that it would be a lot easier to do aluminum - if not completely impossible with the tools at hand. But it was pretty sexy lookin' in the late '70's. We didn't do very well for a lot of reasons but there is a place in my heart for that boat.

I think Gary Mull was (rest his talented soul) an anarchist at heart and did boats that were at the edge. Then a boat called "Pendragon" by Laurie that changed everything. Of course the IOR rules changed a lot of things as well.

Fair thee well Gary Mull - we hardly new ya.

[Icedtea]

God done of these were pretty crazy... Was there any
Advantage to be had with a centreboard?

[sailman]

God done of these were pretty crazy... Was there any
Advantage to be had with a centreboard?

The advantages were less wetted surface downwind and a higher aspect foil upwind and if you had bilge boards then you could make them asymetrical which allowed for better upwind performance (pointing) as well.

[Recidivist]

Downunder Kell Steinman designed some of the most distorted IOR designs I can remember. If I recall correctly he was based in Melbourne and one the more successful designs was a boat named 'Predator', a half tonner I think. Sportscar might have more info? Anyone have pics?

JLAW ("Jack Loves A Wine") was one of those. IIRC she doubled as a half and a Joggie. My late brother sailed on her when they won the JOG titles IIRC.

[bighugh]

Downunder Kell Steinman designed some of the most distorted IOR designs I can remember. If I recall correctly he was based in Melbourne and one the more successful designs was a boat named 'Predator', a half tonner I think. Sportscar might have more info? Anyone have pics?

Kell designed some quite quick downwind flyers which didn't rate and wouldn't go to windward. Flying Colours had some success. When he turned his hand to IOR boats he did produce some amazingly distorted shapes - none worse than Noeleen 3 - a 1 tonner for Ken King which was ugly in the extreme and sailed accordingly. It was later given a short solid stainless steel prodder which only made it look worse. I sailed it once - it was one time too many.

[SPORTSCAR]

Downunder Kell Steinman designed some of the most distorted IOR designs I can remember. If I recall correctly he was based in Melbourne and one the more successful designs was a boat named 'Predator', a half tonner I think. Sportscar might have more info? Anyone have pics?

JLAW ("Jack Loves A Wine") was one of those. IIRC she doubled as a half and a Joggie. My late brother sailed on her when they won the JOG titles IIRC.

JLAW was never a half tonner but was a very succesful JOG boat for a while. Several sisterships were built but none really fired like the original. I lost some good friends in Bass Strait when sistership 'Great Expectations' foundered on her way home from Devonport about 1990. Not the designers fault; she should never have been out there and had been modified from the original lift keel to fixed keel.

[SPORTSCAR]

Downunder Kell Steinman designed some of the most distorted IOR designs I can remember. If I recall correctly he was based in Melbourne and one the more successful designs was a boat named 'Predator', a half tonner I think. Sportscar might have more info? Anyone have pics?

Kell designed some quite quick downwind flyers which didn't rate and wouldn't go to windward. Flying Colours had some success. When he turned his hand to IOR boats he did produce some amazingly distorted shapes - none worse than Noeleen 3 - a 1 tonner for Ken King which was ugly in the extreme and sailed accordingly. It was later given a short solid stainless steel prodder which only made it look worse. I sailed it once - it was one time too many.

Noeleen 3, Originally the late Ken Kings cold moulded Steinman 1 Tonner. The photo below (from the ORCV site just this week!) doesn't show her lines too well but the static waterline ends just slightly aft of the red stripe so the aft overhang is looooong! Denis Millikans navy blue Predator was a marginally faster alloy version (well... alloy plus a truckload of bog!) which had a couple of feet cut off the transom to give her slightly more appealing lines.

 2010_M2G_NoeleenIII_Beam.jpg   70.74K   218 downloads

[Recidivist]

Noeleen 3, Originally the late Ken Kings cold moulded Steinman 1 Tonner. The photo below (from the ORCV site just this week!) doesn't show her lines too well but the static waterline ends just slightly aft of the red stripe so the aft overhang is looooong!

Sportscar, you would remember that Noeleen was for sale a few years back (maybe still is?). I was at Sandy for Sail Melbourne and went to check out why such a big boat was so cheap. One walk down the marina was enough and the broker never received an enquiry from me! It truly is a "stand out" boat!