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F-22 Update


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#1 Ian Farrier

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Posted 22 May 2011 - 11:55 PM

lmeanwhile mr. farrier and his site have gone very quiet about his factory f22...
which this time last year looked like it could be ready...

was the development space in chch nz?
was it damaged in the 2-quakes?

might be time for another update Ian


Just rather busy here with everything proceeding methodically as it should. The F-22 is not being
pushed into production at great expense, so the final cost per boat will be very reasonable, and
a low entry level price means many are likely to be sold. This means a higher volume, with better
efficiency, both of which will further ensure a low entry level price, and a class racer (F-22R) that
can really generate some numbers.

We now have floats, beams, folding system and rudders ready to go, and it will not be too long
before we have the main hull done. Latest photos below:

Attached File  Frontview650-1.jpg   55.14K   305 downloads
Waiting for just one more bit

Attached File  F-22HullPlugStern-2.jpg   90.89K   159 downloads
Which is in progress

No real earthquake damage at our factory, but some at the mold makers which can be seen on:

http://www.f-boat.com/pages/News2/FM-Factory2010.html

Ian Farrier
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#2 Dick Ishuge

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Posted 23 May 2011 - 01:12 AM

Any progress on the deck Ian?

#3 Ian Farrier

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Posted 23 May 2011 - 11:06 AM

Any progress on the deck Ian?


Working on the design and tooling details now. Will be the last major item, but will not be the usual large deck mold as such, which will make it very easy to offer the different cabin configurations almost immediately. This is mainly due to the third generation folding system, where the beam mount areas are external to the hull, and do not have to be part of the deck. This opens up many possibilities for the deck/cabin/cockpit arrangement which no longer has to allow for the beams and their alignment.

I've been trying to improve this area since the F-24 and F-28, where some unnecessary complication/duplication was apparent, and I felt there had to be a better way. The F-24 Mk II was a major step forward structurally over the F-27, but I always felt there was still more progress to be made, just could not quite nail it. However, nailed now, and the result will be a very flexible configuration, with a number of very interesting new options now becoming apparent in the cockpit area, plus a lighter and simpler boat overall.

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#4 eric e

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Posted 23 May 2011 - 11:16 AM

thanks Ian

are the rig options basically sorted?

going roller furling boom again?

#5 Ian Farrier

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Posted 23 May 2011 - 01:08 PM

thanks Ian

are the rig options basically sorted?

going roller furling boom again?


Probably boomless on the basic boat, but a roller furling boom or system will be optional. But I will not really sort this out until after the production prototype has been launched and tested, as there are some new things that I want to try.

Main hull plug now also has some color, with first fairing coat applied to plug:

Attached File  F-22PlugDuratec.jpg   75.18K   49 downloads

Just sanding, the finish coat, and then some polishing left to do!

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#6 DaveK

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Posted 23 May 2011 - 01:39 PM

What is the rough price range of this boat? Sorry, I have to ask! :P

#7 Dick Ishuge

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Posted 23 May 2011 - 07:49 PM

This is mainly due to the third generation folding system, where the beam mount areas are external to the hull, and do not have to be part of the deck.
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Ian, Ive been looking at your site WRT the F32. Will you be making an upgrade to third generation folding system for these boats?

#8 Ian Farrier

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Posted 23 May 2011 - 10:20 PM

What is the rough price range of this boat? Sorry, I have to ask! :P


A bit early for exact pricing yet, but my target range for the base F-22 is from $25,000 (base kit) to $48,000 (sail away boat). Covered in more detail at bottom of:

http://www.f-boat.com/pages/trimarans/F-22Availability.html

(see under Costs)

Attached File  F-22HallSide-Bow.jpg   76.79K   198 downloads
Some shots of Bob Hall's Melvest built custom F-22 in Western Australia
Attached File  F-22HallSternFast.jpg   113.58K   211 downloads

#9 Ian Farrier

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Posted 23 May 2011 - 10:54 PM


This is mainly due to the third generation folding system, where the beam mount areas are external to the hull, and do not have to be part of the deck.
Ian Farrier
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Ian, Ive been looking at your site WRT the F32. Will you be making an upgrade to third generation folding system for these boats?


The F-32 already has the third generation folding system, which was first introduced with the F-33 in 2003:

Attached File  f33beamend.jpg   41.08K   66 downloads

The main features are the external beam mounts (more room inside, and no foot traps in deck)
plus the metal brackets on beams have been eliminated

Attached File  F-22Fwd.jpg   75.85K   90 downloads
Both the F-32 and F-22 have improved things even further, with a better beam shape, while beam compression pads
are now on top which makes them very easy to monitor and adjust.

Attached File  F-22FoldingSystem.jpg   95.73K   88 downloads
Folding struts attach directly to beam (no brackets) while beams taper off towards inner end,
meaning less weight and less windage (when both sailing and trailering). F-22 shown.

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#10 kinardly

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Posted 23 May 2011 - 10:56 PM

Geez! Doesn't look like more than 8-9 Kts. of wind, flat water and that boat is just trucking!

#11 Dick Ishuge

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Posted 25 May 2011 - 12:44 PM

Nice work Ian.

#12 Tucky

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Posted 25 May 2011 - 01:13 PM

Attached File  Frontview650-1.jpg   55.14K   305 downloads

Ian Farrier
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Maybe it's already there


Attached File  funny-stealth-fighter-plane.jpg   17.45K   168 downloads

just sayin'

#13 Speng

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Posted 25 May 2011 - 03:35 PM

Got a question on building molds. I'm not a production guru but how come you still build plugs rather than directly CNCing the molds? I see a lot of boat builders doing this so it's not just you but I've also seen a lot of boat builders going the plugless route. One I saw was a superyacht builder in England where the CNC machine is basically a 100ft shed (quite impressive).

#14 Vernon Green

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Posted 25 May 2011 - 03:39 PM

I don't personally do it but I can only imagine what it would cost to have a CNC machine set up to mill out that large of a mold.

#15 Ian Farrier

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Posted 25 May 2011 - 05:22 PM


Attached File  Frontview650-1.jpg   55.14K   305 downloads

Ian Farrier
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Maybe it's already there


Attached File  funny-stealth-fighter-plane.jpg   17.45K   168 downloads

just sayin'


Rumbled darn it! And it took a lot of work in Photoshop to put those wood props in place....

Attached File  F-22BowShotSS.jpg   90.29K   94 downloads

But next time you are sailing along and hear a sudden wooshing sound, then you may have been passed by a stealth F-22.

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#16 Ian Farrier

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Posted 26 May 2011 - 02:26 AM

Got a question on building molds. I'm not a production guru but how come you still build plugs rather than directly CNCing the molds? I see a lot of boat builders doing this so it's not just you but I've also seen a lot of boat builders going the plugless route. One I saw was a superyacht builder in England where the CNC machine is basically a 100ft shed (quite impressive).


Works okay for 'one offs' or limited volume highly expensive boats, and such CNC machined molds are usually used to form the hull shape, that can be vacuum bagged, with hull then being painted afterwards. But this is not so good for a full production boat where hundreds of boats will be made from one set of molds. In this case one needs a mold with a glossy and very hard wearing surface, and the best way in the marine field is still a gelcoated mold made over a male plug. Male plugs are also a lot easier to fair and polish than a female mold. For a CNC female mold to work for high production, the only option may be a metal one, and that would take quite a large chunk of metal and cash. Polishing would be quite a chore too, and thus metal molds are usually only used in very high volume fields such as automotive.

Once a female mold is made, the original plug (temporary in most cases) is often thrown away, and the mold is then used to make a full fiberglass gelcoated master plug, which is then used to make all future molds. This process also allows one to eliminate every little defect the easy way when turning the molds (hollow spots become bumps) so that future molds can be just about perfect. The F-27 was however done differently again, with the hull and deck plugs being an actual foam cored boat (all epoxy), which then went sailing as the prototype SUPER FOX.

Attached File  FloatPlug.jpg   77.51K   67 downloads

Photo shows the F-22 all epoxy float plug, which was made by yet another process, to ensure a perfect join line, and this has actually become the permanent float plug. There are thus many ways to make molds, each with various advantages.

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#17 Africat

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Posted 17 June 2011 - 02:56 AM

Thanks for your very informative explanations, Ian!

Hoping to own a Farrier trimaran one day...

-Roland

#18 Ian Farrier

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Posted 11 July 2011 - 01:48 AM

The F-22 main hull plug is now just about finished, and we will be starting on the mold itself in a few days,
after plug is properly sealed and waxed.

Attached File  F-22HullPlugBow.jpg   130.4K   44 downloads

More photos and details are at:

http://www.f-boat.co...actory2010.html

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#19 T sailor

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Posted 11 July 2011 - 05:24 PM

Hi ian,

Great looking project! I noticed you changed the bow and stern profiles on the ama's. Are there any other subtle differences between the production boat and the original plan boat? The ama's look great and the sAme bow profile would look good on the main hull.

I am also curious, what level of finish is the basic kit going to be? Gelcoat finish or just primer? Will the interior bulkheads and furniture panels be installed? Interior paint? I hope to be ordering a kit when they become available and am curious how you are going to be able to keep the price low. Given the cost of the materials, coupled with a couple hundred man hours of labor and 25k disappears quickly.

Thanks for all the updates and info!

Cheers,

T

#20 oddsailor

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Posted 12 July 2011 - 01:28 AM

At $25K that'd be a great boat to have around the Great Lakes, too.

#21 T sailor

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Posted 12 July 2011 - 10:12 AM

Just to clarify, 25k was for a basic kit (hulls, beams, ama's). I am figuring another 20k to finish (hardware, rig, sails, finishes).

Cheers,

T

#22 Ian Farrier

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Posted 12 July 2011 - 10:49 PM

Great looking project! I noticed you changed the bow and stern profiles on the ama's. Are there any other subtle differences between the production boat and the original plan boat? The ama's look great and the sAme bow profile would look good on the main hull.

I am also curious, what level of finish is the basic kit going to be? Gelcoat finish or just primer? Will the interior bulkheads and furniture panels be installed? Interior paint? I hope to be ordering a kit when they become available and am curious how you are going to be able to keep the price low. Given the cost of the materials, coupled with a couple hundred man hours of labor and 25k disappears quickly.


There has been quite a few detail changes and improvements, mostly for efficient production, but the basic lines, beams, and folding system will all stay much the same as the plan version.

Attached File  F-22Noosa.JPG   45.75K   62 downloads

Cost and format of the basic kit cannot really be determined until after we have built the first boat, or two, but base kit will include the three hulls, beams, folding system, plus some hardware, and maybe also the mast extrusion. Exterior finish will be gelcoat, the main structural bulkheads will be installed, but the interior will be unfinished.

Price will depend on what volume we can achieve initially (and how well I can get it all together). Volume is going to have to be very high to achieve the estimated prices, but that is what we are tooling up for.

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#23 deano

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Posted 13 July 2011 - 03:16 AM

earthquakes and other freaks of nature aside, any rough estimates on when you hope the first boat may hit the water?

#24 7391

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Posted 13 July 2011 - 10:17 AM

Cost and format of the basic kit cannot really be determined until after we have built the first boat, or two, but base kit will include the three hulls, beams, folding system, plus some hardware, and maybe also the mast extrusion. Exterior finish will be gelcoat, the main structural bulkheads will be installed, but the interior will be unfinished.


Great looking project even for current monohull sailor without any previous multi experience. Any estimates for required working hours to get a base kit to sailing condition if only structurally essential interior works are done? My plan would be to get the boat sailing first and build the interior later...

#25 Ian Farrier

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Posted 14 July 2011 - 01:53 AM

earthquakes and other freaks of nature aside, any rough estimates on when you hope the first boat may hit the water?


Will take as long as it takes to get it right. Currently doing the beam and folding system installation details for main hull, and am now on my third computer build. The first one would have done it, but not as good as it could be, and will I just keep going until its right. This is a completely new way of installing the third generation beams/folding system, and it is better and quicker to sort it out on the computer first, rather than on the boat. But just about there, at which point I can finally turn off the design computer and build the first boat.

Attached File  F-22Fwd-1.jpg   75.85K   82 downloads

How it is done on the plan built boat - very clean compared to my earlier designs. Production boat will be similar, but with some further improvements again

Attached File  MennoInterior1.jpg   74.98K   99 downloads

The nice thing about the third generation folding system is less intrusion into the cabin, plan built boat show, and the production version will have an even bigger bulkhead opening due to some further improvements

Build time for the kit hulls is still to be determined yet, as it will depend on how good I can configure it all, but looking better every day.

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#26 juniordave nz

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Posted 15 July 2011 - 01:02 AM

So are we going to see some testing in Lytleton then?

#27 Ian Farrier

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Posted 15 July 2011 - 01:15 AM

So are we going to see some testing in Lytleton then?


Yes, and at 43 south it is perfect for a real work out!

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#28 oldsailor

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Posted 15 July 2011 - 06:01 AM

Ian.
I am so glad to see you still use the word "Floats" to describe the outer hulls on a trimaran.
All this uppity use of polynesian words like Akas, Amas and Vakas--------------is just Nackers. :D

#29 juniordave nz

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Posted 15 July 2011 - 11:04 AM

Sweet. Look forward to seeing it out there

#30 Ian Farrier

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Posted 10 August 2011 - 06:58 AM

We Have Lift Off!

Attached File  HullMoldonSide.jpg   124.66K   73 downloads

The F-22 main hull mold has now been lifted off the plug - more photos at:

http://www.f-boat.co...actory2010.html

Just the deck (and a few odds and ends) to go!

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#31 Chris O

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Posted 10 August 2011 - 01:37 PM

All this uppity use of polynesian words like Akas, Amas and Vakas--------------is just Nackers.




If that's bothersome, then here's a list that ought to really set you to spinning... ;-)

http://en.wikipedia...._nautical_terms

#32 Bulbhunter

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Posted 10 August 2011 - 03:28 PM

Cool boat

#33 Ian Farrier

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Posted 30 August 2011 - 09:06 PM


Both NSW builders are now catching me up, having been very busy with the F-22 deck design and mold plug.


Off topic question: what deck models will be available for F-22? Will there be daggerboard/centreboard models?


This question has been transferred into the right topic - hopefully!

There will be daggerboard and kick up centerboard options for the F-22 as both have their advantages, and it is hard to decide which is best, so easier to offer both. Daggerboard will be first, and the centerboard option will follow as time permits. The foil itself has been designed so that it can be used in either format, so we only need different cases.

Meanwhile, we have now demolished the F-22 hull plug (which took a deep breath), but the decks had to be cleared for the F-22 deck plug and mold - the last major mold needed!!

Attached File  Plug2.jpg   90.26K   29 downloads

F-22 factory progress web page will be updated later today (NZ time).

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#34 Speng

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Posted 30 August 2011 - 09:42 PM

Is it going to be a short or long cabin or either? Is the aft cabin going to be available? I think I know the answers but I'm sure enquiring minds want to know.

#35 cap10ed

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Posted 31 August 2011 - 02:47 AM

BINGO I'll second that!!



Ian.
I am so glad to see you still use the word "Floats" to describe the outer hulls on a trimaran.
All this uppity use of polynesian words like Akas, Amas and Vakas--------------is just Nackers. :D



#36 cap10ed

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Posted 31 August 2011 - 02:55 AM

Some fun here. My watch says half past Vaka quarter to Wing sail and 3 elements. The calender now shows 1 year and change to AC Frisco and something tells me no one will be using anything but floats for the race. Gotta love the Dark Side and its followers.Keep your sticks up.

.


All this uppity use of polynesian words like Akas, Amas and Vakas--------------is just Nackers.




If that's bothersome, then here's a list that ought to really set you to spinning... ;-)

http://en.wikipedia...._nautical_terms



#37 Ian Farrier

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Posted 31 August 2011 - 06:58 AM

Is it going to be a short or long cabin or either? Is the aft cabin going to be available? I think I know the answers but I'm sure enquiring minds want to know.


Both short and long cabins are being done, as is the aft cabin. The key here is maximum flexibility, and the deck mold has undergone considerable design work in order to make it easy to change from one configuration to the other on the fly. In fact there is currently no other deck mold quite like it.

Attached File  F-22hullmoldbow650.jpg   97.34K   76 downloads

Hull mold now cleaned up, polished, waxed and ready to go!
The standard of finish is very obvious, and the best I have ever done.


Some more photos are on http://www.f-boat.co...actory2010.html

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#38 unShirley

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Posted 31 August 2011 - 04:09 PM

BINGO I'll second that!!




Ian.
I am so glad to see you still use the word "Floats" to describe the outer hulls on a trimaran.
All this uppity use of polynesian words like Akas, Amas and Vakas--------------is just Nackers. :D

#1. Apologies for the tangent
#2. I do prefer the polynesian 3 letter descriptions of the various components. Call me lazy, but ama is much quicker and easier to use than float, outrigger, or my personal favorite: pontoonPosted Image. Likewise for aka vs. crossbeams and Vaka vs. main hull.

I guess my personal quest for efficiency has overcome my anglo bias.

#39 Speng

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Posted 31 August 2011 - 05:23 PM


Is it going to be a short or long cabin or either? Is the aft cabin going to be available? I think I know the answers but I'm sure enquiring minds want to know.


Both short and long cabins are being done, as is the aft cabin. The key here is maximum flexibility, and the deck mold has undergone considerable design work in order to make it easy to change from one configuration to the other on the fly. In fact there is currently no other deck mold quite like it.

Attached File  F-22hullmoldbow650.jpg   97.34K   76 downloads

Hull mold now cleaned up, polished, waxed and ready to go!
The standard of finish is very obvious, and the best I have ever done.


Some more photos are on http://www.f-boat.co...actory2010.html

Ian Farrier
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That's what I thought. Thanks.

#40 Ian Farrier

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Posted 20 October 2011 - 01:43 AM

Another four F-22s (built from plans) have just been launched:

Denmark: Attached File  F-22Denmarkside.jpg   88.58K   56 downloads

Canada: Attached File  F-22Scott.jpg   229.43K   63 downloads

California: Attached File  F-22Whittington1.jpg   101.97K   72 downloads

Canada: Attached File  F-22Stephens.jpg   84K   74 downloads

More details on my web site at: http://www.f-boat.com/recentnews.html
Meanwhile, back at our factory, we now have the F-22 main hull mold setup to rotate,
which is an essential requirement to make hulls efficiently,

Attached File  MoldPivot-1.jpg   131.13K   51 downloads

More details at: http://www.f-boat.co...actory2010.html

Our main problem at present is lack of space, as we were in a larger 10,000 sq.ft factory by this stage with the F-27, and we are being squeezed with all the molds and infrastructure here now at present. We had to rig up a temporary booth to gelcoat the main hull today, our current one being too small. However, it looks like we will have a 10,800 sq. ft factory for early 2012, which should be plenty of room.

It's still a little surprising at what is actually required to setup a fully operational manufacturing facility, even though I have done it all before. However, second time around means it can be done more efficiently, and at less cost. Still many little details to go, but getting them right, while also maintaining very high standards, is what makes a great product.

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#41 deano

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Posted 20 October 2011 - 02:45 AM

Apologies upfront for another tangent, but there have been some good discussions on this thread.

This may sound like an insult of a question to ask Ian of all people, but do you see a market for a non folding tri, with solid side decks?

Why I ask, is i'd like to find a glass tri, with no tramps, with staunchions mainly to make it safer/easier with a young family.
My existing tri is on a swing mooring, so marina berths costs are not an issue. More value would be placed on a robust platform than it's ability to fold. At 30 years old, it is a dated design that has little of the performance that makes the F boats so appealing.

If you looked at something around 30' as an example, how much of a weight penalty would solid decks add? I'm assuming more than existing floats would be happy with? Are there any issues or suggestions with leaving what is often a dry stored boat moored indefinately? (antifouling aside)

#42 vmg

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Posted 20 October 2011 - 11:36 AM

The additional weight of a solid side deck, if built in composite, would not be the significant factor. The main down side of solid wings is the extra windage, there has been a discussion about the recent capsize of a tri and one of the causes was put down to very close weave side nets.

The older design tris like the one that you have [telstar?] were designed to sail with 3 hulls mostly in the water so windage under the wings was not as much of a factor as on a more modern tri [Like the Farriers] where the windward float is designed to fly higher under normal sailing conditions.

To imply that F-tris are not 'Robust' might mean that you have not sailed one! Or that you mean easier under-foot?

#43 craigiri

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Posted 20 October 2011 - 02:34 PM

More value would be placed on a robust platform than it's ability to fold.


This is a general question I had about all the folding tris...and now that it has been asked, maybe Ian and others can comment.

My mooring, for example, is in a fairly stormy and choppy area. We might regularly see 2 foot chop, but a couple times a season see winds up to 50 kts (last hurricane near miss).

I've kept my little sloop there, buttoned up during hurricane watches (boom removed, hatches battened) with no problem - because a single hull is very streamlined and solid in such condition, especially when self bailing.

So the question becomes whether folding tris - left in the open position most all of the time - present additional potential problems at a relatively exposed mooring?? My gut tells me this could put a lot of stress on the floats and brackets, but experience and engineering are often contrary to guts.

Enclosed - mooring in a blow!

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  • Attached File  p18.jpg   40.34K   35 downloads


#44 Ian Farrier

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Posted 20 October 2011 - 06:41 PM

Apologies upfront for another tangent, but there have been some good discussions on this thread.

This may sound like an insult of a question to ask Ian of all people, but do you see a market for a non folding tri, with solid side decks?

Why I ask, is i'd like to find a glass tri, with no tramps, with staunchions mainly to make it safer/easier with a young family.
My existing tri is on a swing mooring, so marina berths costs are not an issue. More value would be placed on a robust platform than it's ability to fold. At 30 years old, it is a dated design that has little of the performance that makes the F boats so appealing.

If you looked at something around 30' as an example, how much of a weight penalty would solid decks add? I'm assuming more than existing floats would be happy with? Are there any issues or suggestions with leaving what is often a dry stored boat moored indefinately? (antifouling aside)


I used to have such a boat,

Attached File  OriginalTri600.jpg   99.73K   45 downloads

but I would not have one again, nor would I design one. Too much downside, expensive to make, and there is no market.

They are heavy, have too much windage under decks, plus pounding under the side decks can be a problem. That said, an older boat like this can be a lot of fun - mine certainly was, and it converted me over to trimarans, having been a mono sailor up until then. In reality, there's nothing wrong with most old boats, of any type, and they can be a great low cost way of going sailing.

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#45 Ian Farrier

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Posted 20 October 2011 - 07:06 PM

This is a general question I had about all the folding tris...and now that it has been asked, maybe Ian and others can comment.

My mooring, for example, is in a fairly stormy and choppy area. We might regularly see 2 foot chop, but a couple times a season see winds up to 50 kts (last hurricane near miss).

I've kept my little sloop there, buttoned up during hurricane watches (boom removed, hatches battened) with no problem - because a single hull is very streamlined and solid in such condition, especially when self bailing.

So the question becomes whether folding tris - left in the open position most all of the time - present additional potential problems at a relatively exposed mooring?? My gut tells me this could put a lot of stress on the floats and brackets, but experience and engineering are often contrary to guts.


There's absolutely no reason why one of my folding trimarans cannot be left on a mooring. The folding F-39 is not trailerable so it has to be left on a mooring or in a marina, with absolutely no restrictions.

Attached File  F-39Greenwood.jpg   128.05K   42 downloads

The loads on a mooring are only a fraction of what the boat would see when being driven hard to windward in 30 knots, and my designs handle that with ease, so leaving on a mooring is an very acceptable choice.

My question is why would you? I know there is no other option in some cases, but why leave a boat on a mooring when it is so easy to put in on a trailer and keep ashore. I kept my original tri on a mooring, but the continual need to anti foul, plus scrape all the bird poop off before going sailing, not to mention rowing half a mile to get to the boat (in all weather), and the need to keep a dinghy ashore, does tend to take the gloss off a days sail.

One of the main reasons I invented the folding system was so that one did not have to moor a small tri. Mooring is just not worth the hassles for a small boat, and usually the only small multihulls that end up on moorings are the ones that take a small army and forever to launch or trailer.

Attached File  DemountableLR.jpg   27.09K   44 downloads

All that work just to go sailing.....

There has been two or three fixed beam versions of my designs built, where the owner wanted to put it on the mooring, but the saving in not fitting the folding system was very small compared to the difficulty in trying to sell such boats, which is usually at a much bigger loss. Much more demand for folding boats.

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#46 craigiri

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Posted 20 October 2011 - 07:47 PM

Thanks for the answers, Ian.

Here in Rhode Island we are short on bird poop. It's not florida! We do have some marine growth, but with the mix of fresh and salt water...not as much as you would expect.

My guess is that 95% plus of all boating in RI is done from moorings and slips. There are boat ramps, but they present many problems compared to mooring or a slip.

Speaking of just my case, and that of some friends, we have the boat moored off a nearby beach. In my case, I can walk there. It takes maybe 10 minutes to pull the dinghy out and row to the mooring...and I'm off. I've never trailered a boat except for in/out at the start and end of the year, but it is hard to imagine it is anywhere that easy!

Some old sailors note that the easier it is to go sailing, the more we are likely to do so. Trailering requires more of a commitment....

We do also have a hoist setup in Newport for dry storage - which is great for the racers and dry sailors.

Since the US (and world) market is so fractionated, it would be hard to predict how many people will moor or use a slip as opposed to trailer. But my guess is that, on the east coast at least, vastly more folks will try to keep boats over 20 feet in the water.

#47 THOR

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Posted 20 October 2011 - 07:57 PM

well I keep my boat on the hard, mast up
it takes me about the same time to get her ready as it takes other folks to unload their crap into a cute wheelbarrow... run to their slip, unpack everything and bring the wheelbarrow back ....

I unpack from the car into the boat, hook up, throw her in the water, unfold and I am ready ...

like 10 min ....

thor

slip savings ... 1500 dlr a year,, no paint savings 800 dlr a year... there are other savings as well....

#48 vmg

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Posted 20 October 2011 - 08:25 PM

My F32 will live on a swinging mooring, just as my solid wing trimaran did.

You need to leave a Trimaran moored with bridle lines to the floats or ends of beams to stop it crabbing around in the breeze. But even so, the loadings will be much lighter than a monohull.

The standing rigging should be snug to stop the mast banging about too.

In many areas, no boats should stay afloat all year and the ability to slide it onto a trailer and take it home instead of craning out and storing in a boatyard for the winter , saves thousands.

Self-bailing? imagine punching a hole in the hull with a stray tree-trunk floating about in a storm!

#49 craigiri

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Posted 20 October 2011 - 08:45 PM

Mast up is a whole 'nother thing! That's pretty close to perfect - 10 minutes. Our boat ramps are fairly poor and there is very little, if any, mast-up storage convenient to them.

In RI, the longest we leave in water is usually 5 months. Then it goes to trailer or hard.

Of course, the other issue is size of car. There is often a cost in MPG or other factors (year-round) to keep a car or truck that can pull any boat larger than about 2,000 lbs all told (boat, motor, gear, trailer). The perfect solution differs by locale, I guess....

#50 offtherails

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Posted 20 October 2011 - 09:11 PM

Marina berth on home waters and charter boats when travelling come close to perfect?

#51 Dag-Sabot

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Posted 20 October 2011 - 09:18 PM

Why do insist on clicking on these threads? They have literally no raptor content.

#52 Woxbox

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Posted 21 October 2011 - 12:04 AM

I've just switched from keeping a boat in a slip ( a 35' cat ) to an F27 that will live on its trailer. As others have said, there's no time savings having the boat in a slip. It is quicker to get underway, but no quicker at all coming back in and getting everything cleaned up and put away. But the big attraction with trailering (which I did for 15 years before the 5-year slip experiment)is that you can do all the maintenance at home, so those chores don't eat into your sailing/vacation time. That adds days to the time spent out on the water instead of working at the dock. And, of course, it's way cheaper to escape the endless marina fees.

#53 deano

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Posted 21 October 2011 - 11:31 AM

VMG: you are pretty close regarding the Telstar guess, it is an Australian built Manta which was basically an updated Telsar with extended stern and different deck config.Still circa 1982.

You are right regarding the sailing attitude. It does not get anywhere near the angles a powered up F boat can do, mainly due to the weight and smaller rig.

We've had trailables such as Hartley 16's growing up, and I can't imagine loading up, towing down to the beach, mast raising, etc to go for a sail but we did, even just for an afternoon. After 6 years of owning a boat on a mooring, I don't mind still having to antifoul each year, and we have comorants here that sure know how to sh*t on you boat.

So Ian, if you imagine turning back the clock to when you had you did have you old tri, what would be today's equivalent? There's bugger all from what I can see over here.Yes it is good fun for it's cost, and certainly had more attractive features for family sailing than other 4ksb's that were alternatives.I'd still be happy to upgrade it for something newer if there was a similar alternative...

#54 Ian Farrier

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Posted 11 November 2011 - 07:56 PM

The first F-22 production main hull has now been made:

Attached File  Infusedhull-1.jpg   169.62K   51 downloads

This was resin infused and the first infusion for such a large part is always a nervous time, as one can never be sure how the resin will travel through the laminate. If it does not go to plan, the hull can even be lost. However, considerable thought went into the placement of the various reinforcements and flow layers to where infusion proved to be problem free. The whole hull was literally infused in around an hour, with no fumes or mess, while the infusion process gives just about the perfect laminate. Some more details are on:

http://www.f-boat.co...actory2010.html

This first main hull is now being used to make the interior molds, and the only major mold left to develop is the deck mold, which is in process. Still many little details to go, but it is important to get them just right, and this takes time.

Space had become the main problem as more major molds appeared, plus also the main hull just made, but a new much larger 10,800sq. ft factory has just been secured. Move in will be on February 1st, and this will give us the room necessary for F-22 series production.

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#55 craigiri

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Posted 12 November 2011 - 01:46 PM

Very cool, Ian, and congrats on the first hull!

So, after this, hulls should come out of the mold at about 2 per week? Or does it get even quicker after that? Building boats in quantity seems like a complicated matter, what with all the other molded parts and hand work. I've read a bit about the number of hours required - hopefully your modern production methods can bring that down, but it still seems to be quite a labor intensive process.

#56 Ian Farrier

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Posted 12 November 2011 - 09:10 PM

Very cool, Ian, and congrats on the first hull!

So, after this, hulls should come out of the mold at about 2 per week? Or does it get even quicker after that? Building boats in quantity seems like a complicated matter, what with all the other molded parts and hand work. I've read a bit about the number of hours required - hopefully your modern production methods can bring that down, but it still seems to be quite a labor intensive process.


Building a folding trimaran is always going to be more labor intensive than other boats, so one has to make the extra effort to be more efficient, and also not to over capitalize by just throwing money at it. It took 4 years to get the F-27 production rate from one a month to two a week, but doing the same with the F-22 will be considerably quicker, and cost significantly less.

Attached File  f27factory.jpg   105.56K   52 downloads
Photo shows the F-27 Factory around 1987 at end of the production line.
The F-22 factory will be bigger again by February 2012, and it will be possible
to build the smaller F-22 even faster.


Using molds more efficiently is one key, and my latest methods will enable us to build boats faster out of one mold, but to get the volume needed it will still take more main hull and float molds. This requires master plugs to make those molds from, and we already have the float masters, while the next step with the main hull will be to build the master plug. Deck master plug is currently under construction.

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#57 Bob's Your Uncle

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Posted 14 November 2011 - 04:30 PM

Does anyone here know of any F-22 builds taking place along the Eastern seaboard (US). I am interested in having a look at what is involved in building, as well as getting a feel of how the F-22 compares in size to the Corsair 24!!.


Please pm me the details.

Regards,

**Robert Thompson**

#58 eric e

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Posted 14 November 2011 - 10:50 PM

hi Robert,
not exactly the info you are looking for, but has some bearing

afaik farrier stopped selling f22 plans about a year ago when the average build time looked to be about the same as the wait for a factory boat. so there may not be much response to your question on observing a build locally

size..... Ian recently said that the f22 could equally have been called the f23, he just liked the f22 moniker more...

i think the f22 is still slightly smaller than the f24 but with the smaller internal beam mounts will probably look slightly bigger inside and may actually have more usable space

#59 Bob's Your Uncle

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Posted 15 November 2011 - 02:54 AM

hi Robert,
not exactly the info you are looking for, but has some bearing

afaik farrier stopped selling f22 plans about a year ago when the average build time looked to be about the same as the wait for a factory boat. so there may not be much response to your question on observing a build locally

size..... Ian recently said that the f22 could equally have been called the f23, he just liked the f22 moniker more...

i think the f22 is still slightly smaller than the f24 but with the smaller internal beam mounts will probably look slightly bigger inside and may actually have more usable space

Hi Eric,

Thanks for the information. I was unaware that the F-22 plans were no longer available from Mr. Farrier. In all honesty it probably doesn't matter as building a complete boat improbable when realistically considering both work and family obligations. However, with the sailing season having given way to old man winter up here, it's easy to find one's mind wandering onto such self-delusional endeavors. Posted Image

I am still interested in having a look at a F-22 build if possible, as I said, if for no other reason that to get a realistic feel for the size comparison between the boats. So, if some F-22 builder is hunkered down in his (HEATED) workshop and is willing to show off his work-in-progress, please let me know.

Best Regards,

**Robert Thompson**

#60 Ian Farrier

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Posted 15 November 2011 - 03:08 PM

hi Robert,
not exactly the info you are looking for, but has some bearing

afaik farrier stopped selling f22 plans about a year ago when the average build time looked to be about the same as the wait for a factory boat. so there may not be much response to your question on observing a build locally

size..... Ian recently said that the f22 could equally have been called the f23, he just liked the f22 moniker more...

i think the f22 is still slightly smaller than the f24 but with the smaller internal beam mounts will probably look slightly bigger inside and may actually have more usable space


The F-22 and F-24 are actually very similar in size, main exception being the larger floats on the F-22. The F-24 has been a great boat for its size, but it is now over 20 years old, and I have worked very hard at making the F-22 even better in every way, not just in performance. As a result it has more interior room, with less intrusion from the third generation beams, plus a wider/roomier forward bunk which is 6" (150mm) wider around the shoulder area between the forward beams. The F-22 centerboard version will look significantly larger again, although in reality the difference is not major, it just looks and feels larger (which can be important too).

The following is a good comparison shot of the F-22 and Sprint/24 from the exterior.

Attached File  F-22andSprint.jpg   233.68K   133 downloads

And the following is a frontal comparison of the F-22 and F-24 (blue line), where the greater volume of the all yellow F-22 is fairly obvious

Attached File  F-22-F-24BodyComp.jpg   79.09K   123 downloads

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#61 Bob's Your Uncle

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Posted 15 November 2011 - 04:13 PM


hi Robert,
not exactly the info you are looking for, but has some bearing

afaik farrier stopped selling f22 plans about a year ago when the average build time looked to be about the same as the wait for a factory boat. so there may not be much response to your question on observing a build locally

size..... Ian recently said that the f22 could equally have been called the f23, he just liked the f22 moniker more...

i think the f22 is still slightly smaller than the f24 but with the smaller internal beam mounts will probably look slightly bigger inside and may actually have more usable space


The F-22 and F-24 are actually very similar in size, main exception being the larger floats on the F-22. The F-24 has been a great boat for its size, but it is now over 20 years old, and I have worked very hard at making the F-22 even better in every way, not just in performance. As a result it has more interior room, with less intrusion from the third generation beams, plus a wider/roomier forward bunk which is 6" (150mm) wider around the shoulder area between the forward beams. The F-22 centerboard version will look significantly larger again, although in reality the difference is not major, it just looks and feels larger (which can be important too).

The following is a good comparison shot of the F-22 and Sprint/24 from the exterior.

Attached File  F-22andSprint.jpg   233.68K   133 downloads

And the following is a frontal comparison of the F-22 and F-24 (blue line), where the greater volume of the all yellow F-22 is fairly obvious

Attached File  F-22-F-24BodyComp.jpg   79.09K   123 downloads

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Mr. Farrier,

Thank you for the response. The comparison image very helpful, however would be more helpful to me if it showed the difference between the F-22 and C-24II. Also, is there a possibility getting this same type of comparison in profile?

Best Regards,

**Robert Thompson**

#62 Ian Farrier

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Posted 15 November 2011 - 07:21 PM

Thank you for the response. The comparison image very helpful, however would be more helpful to me if it showed the difference between the F-22 and C-24II. Also, is there a possibility getting this same type of comparison in profile?

Best Regards,

**Robert Thompson**


The C-24II is exactly the same as the F-24 Mk II, just a different name. After I left Corsair they were no longer allowed to use my name or trademarks, as the boats were not necessarily being built to my specifications. The Sprint is also the C24II with a different deck mold, which gives a bigger cockpit but a smaller cabin. It also has a much bigger rig to make it faster, but which also makes it less suitable as a cruiser. That is my opinion, others may disagree.

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#63 macca

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Posted 16 November 2011 - 02:34 AM

Ian, I don't know you but from your comments in various threads in here it would appear that you have a fairly sizeable chip on your shoulder regarding anything to do with your old employer. Perhaps you should promote the positive aspects of your ideas and less of the negatives from others?

#64 vmg

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Posted 16 November 2011 - 03:04 AM

MacPherson...

THIS thread is about the F22 by the designer of the F22.

Some people find the information in it refreshingly honest and informative.

YOU ARE TROLLING! Go and spoil something else.

#65 macca

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Posted 16 November 2011 - 03:09 AM

Not trolling (whatever the hell that is)

But based on the interjections in the sprint thread and in this one it's pretty clear that there are cheap shots being taken at corsair and as I stated above; it would be better to focus on the positives rather than putting someone else's product down.

#66 Ian Farrier

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Posted 16 November 2011 - 03:25 AM

Ian, I don't know you but from your comments in various threads in here it would appear that you have a fairly sizeable chip on your shoulder regarding anything to do with your old employer. Perhaps you should promote the positive aspects of your ideas and less of the negatives from others?


Your posting seems more of a personal attack then contributing anything new.

The facts are facts when comparing boats as asked, in a topic about the F-22:

The F-22 and F-24 are actually very similar in size, main exception being the larger floats on the F-22. The F-24 has been a great boat for its size, but it is now over 20 years old, and I have worked very hard at making the F-22 even better in every way, not just in performance. As a result it has more interior room, with less intrusion from the third generation beams, plus a wider/roomier forward bunk which is 6" (150mm) wider around the shoulder area between the forward beams. The F-22 centerboard version will look significantly larger again, although in reality the difference is not major, it just looks and feels larger (which can be important too).

---------

The C-24II is exactly the same as the F-24 Mk II, just a different name. After I left Corsair they were no longer allowed to use my name or trademarks, as the boats were not necessarily being built to my specifications (a fact and explains the different names). The Sprint is also the C24II with a different deck mold, which gives a bigger cockpit but a smaller cabin. It also has a much bigger rig to make it faster, but which also makes it less suitable as a cruiser. That is my opinion, others may disagree.

I'm not going to hide the improvements in the F-22 compared to my older designs. If you don't like hearing about my latest designs and all the new developments at Farrier Marine then don't read my postings.

Ian Farrier
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#67 trenace

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Posted 16 November 2011 - 03:36 AM

I have to testify to quite the contrary as macca's post.

I've been following and admiring Ian's work for years and until now hadn't even gathered that the relationship wasn't current. He hardly goes about blowing the trumpet on this subject, to say the least.

I don't think the above post is out of line in the slightest in tone, content, or in any way. Including upon re-reading. I don't find the "negative" in it at all, let alone any "chip."

#68 lake Pee

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Posted 16 November 2011 - 03:40 AM

[quote name='macca' timestamp='1321412980' post='3473064']
Not trolling (whatever the hell that is)

In Internet slang, a troll is someone who posts inflammatory,[2] extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room, or blog, with the primary intent of provoking readers into an emotional response[3] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.[4] The noun troll may refer to the provocative message itself, as in: "That was an excellent troll you posted".


Now bugger off troll.Attached File  tribology 1.jpg   28.86K   67 downloads

#69 macca

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Posted 16 November 2011 - 04:06 AM

Perhaps I have it all wrong, and if so I apologise.

I would like to know what specifications are unsatisfactory on the C24 compared to the F24?

#70 trenace

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Posted 16 November 2011 - 04:12 AM

Nowhere did he say "unsatisfactory." Only "not necessarily built to my specifications."

That includes simply different. It doesn't even begin to suggest "unsatisfactory."

#71 macca

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Posted 16 November 2011 - 04:14 AM

So maybe its being built better?

#72 trenace

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Posted 16 November 2011 - 04:18 AM

You're ought to bait the man, aren't you?

I've answered fully and am done.

It's obviously your prerogative to think whatever you want. I extremely strongly suspect you are the only person thinking this way, however.

#73 Ian Farrier

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Posted 16 November 2011 - 04:21 AM

Perhaps I have it all wrong, and if so I apologise.

I would like to know what specifications are unsatisfactory on the C24 compared to the F24?


I do not know if they are unsatisfactory, and I have never stated such. There have been no major problems with the C24II that I have heard of, but obviously it would not be a good idea to allow my name or trademarks to be used on a boat that I no longer have any control over.

When I parted ways with Corsair (who was a licensee to me, not my employer) the F-24/C24 was being built to my specifications, but I could no longer be sure that it would be from then on. Corsair's name has thus been on that boat since I left, so they have taken full responsibility, and hence the name change to C24 after I left. It was part of our parting agreement.

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#74 macca

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Posted 16 November 2011 - 04:26 AM

If a designer says a boat is not being built to his specifications it can hardly be viewed as a positive statement, which brings me to my initial point about focussing on the positives of his product and less on the negatives of others.

#75 macca

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Posted 16 November 2011 - 04:29 AM


Perhaps I have it all wrong, and if so I apologise.

I would like to know what specifications are unsatisfactory on the C24 compared to the F24?


I do not know if they are unsatisfactory, and I have never stated such. There have been no major problems with the C24II that I have heard of, but obviously it would not be a good idea to allow my name or trademarks to be used on a boat that I no longer have any control over.

When I parted ways with Corsair (who was a licensee to me, not my employer) the F-24/C24 was being built to my specifications, but I could no longer be sure that it would be from then on. Corsair's name has thus been on that boat since I left, so they have taken full responsibility, and hence the name change to C24 after I left. It was part of our parting agreement.

Ian Farrier
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Ian, no problem, it just comes accross (to me) that it could be better to push the positives of your new stuff (which I like a lot) and leave the history with your old designs and the current builder of such where it lies.

#76 diggler

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Posted 16 November 2011 - 07:57 AM

Ian, no problem, it just comes accross (to me) that it could be better to push the positives of your new stuff (which I like a lot) and leave the history with your old designs and the current builder of such where it lies.


+1

More eye candy and hot news on the 22, 85, and 32SR please!

#77 lake Pee

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Posted 16 November 2011 - 06:07 PM

Hot enough for ya?

Attached File  jail break.jpg   90.5K   287 downloads

#78 Tucky

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Posted 16 November 2011 - 06:16 PM

Hot enough for ya?

Attached File  jail break.jpg   90.5K   287 downloads


I believe that boat will need extra tiedowns, when folded and on the trailer, to keep it from flying away. Looks like it would tow behind a bicycle.

Congratulations to Mike Mentor, the builder, anf Jerry Fiat, the owner. I hope when more pictures are taken the boat will have its own thread

The first F-35 RXSPOhMYGodSuperFast.

Great color scheme.




#79 Lighthouse

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Posted 16 November 2011 - 07:18 PM

Hot enough for ya?

Attached File  jail break.jpg   90.5K   287 downloads


omg, that sure IS HOT ! ouch !! Posted Image

keep the pictures coming, please

#80 diggler

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Posted 16 November 2011 - 07:25 PM

Hole. E. Sheeit!

Pure boat porn, that is what I am talking about!

#81 RedTuna

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Posted 26 November 2011 - 04:12 PM

Ian

With every new production F-22 build update, like the deck flange plug below, the more interested I get. But a new sail-away F-22 is out of the picture for me. As I look at the 24MkII's that are in my budget I keep thinking about the F-22 'boat in a box' kit you mentioned on f-boat.com. I can't tell if that section has been updated in a while so not sure if it's still going to be an option. Is it? If so, can you provide a few more details on what what will be included and if you think the cost may still be near your target.

Thanks

Posted Image

#82 Ian Farrier

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Posted 26 November 2011 - 08:22 PM

Ian

With every new production F-22 build update, like the deck flange plug below, the more interested I get. But a new sail-away F-22 is out of the picture for me. As I look at the 24MkII's that are in my budget I keep thinking about the F-22 'boat in a box' kit you mentioned on f-boat.com. I can't tell if that section has been updated in a while so not sure if it's still going to be an option. Is it? If so, can you provide a few more details on what what will be included and if you think the cost may still be near your target.

Thanks

Posted Image


The next stage in development will be the selling of hulls and beams etc in kits. We could supply floats, beams, folding systems, daggerboard, rudders etc now, but no point in shipping these until we have the main hull and deck ready as well, so all can be shipped as one. We will start shipping kits for self assembly next year, but cannot give accurate costs until after we have built the first two or three hulls.

The fully finished sail away boat will then follow as soon as we have an assembly setup up. Due to move into a new factory on Feb 1st, and this will have enough room for the assembly line needed. Working as fast as we can, but there's no timetable or deadlines - the production F-22 is just going to take as long as it takes to get right.

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#83 feg

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Posted 29 November 2011 - 08:59 PM

I bought the plan set but never managed to actually build it...

What will be included in the kits for self assembly?
You mentioned mainhull, floats, beams, folding systems, daggerboard and rudders, but how about the etc part? Mast, boom, hardware such as mastfot and all the other stuff I cant even begin to imagine that make out the boat?

What would have to be bought elsewere?

/Jocke




The next stage in development will be the selling of hulls and beams etc in kits. We could supply floats, beams, folding systems, daggerboard, rudders etc now, but no point in shipping these until we have the main hull and deck ready as well, so all can be shipped as one. We will start shipping kits for self assembly next year, but cannot give accurate costs until after we have built the first two or three hulls.

The fully finished sail away boat will then follow as soon as we have an assembly setup up. Due to move into a new factory on Feb 1st, and this will have enough room for the assembly line needed. Working as fast as we can, but there's no timetable or deadlines - the production F-22 is just going to take as long as it takes to get right.

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#84 Ian Farrier

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Posted 29 November 2011 - 09:41 PM

I bought the plan set but never managed to actually build it...

What will be included in the kits for self assembly?
You mentioned mainhull, floats, beams, folding systems, daggerboard and rudders, but how about the etc part? Mast, boom, hardware such as mastfot and all the other stuff I cant even begin to imagine that make out the boat?

What would have to be bought elsewere?

/Jocke


It will depend at which stage you buy the kit, which will range from just the three hulls with beams and folding system only (cheapest stage) to everything including all the fittings, mast, and sails. Still too premature to list exactly what will come with every stage, current priority being to build the boat and all the parts first. But will probably be available in three stages. The finished and fully assembled sail way boat will then start after that.

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#85 Ian Farrier

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Posted 31 January 2012 - 12:22 AM

We reached a major milestone this week with the F-22, as we move into a much larger factory, where serious production can begin:

Attached File  NewFactory650.jpg   108.58K   57 downloads

Photo shows the 'first in' main hull mold. We were having to squeeze by this in the old factory, but now there's plenty of room! Downside is the move and setting up the new factory with gelcoat booth etc. will take some time, and interrupt progress. But we will at least now have plenty of room to finally start production once everything is ready.

For those interested in more details on the actual boat, the French magazine Multicoques have just done a 4 page sailing test on a French built F-22 in their current issue (No 122), and this can be seen at:

http://www.multihull...es/122,650.html

Both French/English language versions are available, and the download is on a paid basis, but the magazine is very good, and filled with other multihull news.

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#86 Ian Farrier

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Posted 11 May 2012 - 11:40 PM

Our new factory is now up and running, and first F-22 main hull was lifted out of the mold last week:

Attached File  Liftout.jpg   131.92K   70 downloads

and it is perfect.

It's great to finally have it out after sitting around for so long in the mold, while we made the interior molds etc. and moved factories.
More photos can be seen at http://www.f-boat.co...actory2010.html

Still much work to go, but we are getting there.

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#87 Doug Lord

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Posted 12 May 2012 - 02:46 AM

Our new factory is now up and running, and first F-22 main hull was lifted out of the mold last week:


and it is perfect.

It's great to finally have it out after sitting around for so long in the mold, while we made the interior molds etc. and moved factories.
More photos can be seen at http://www.f-boat.co...actory2010.html

Still much work to go, but we are getting there.

Ian Farrier
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=======================
Congratulations, Ian!

#88 RocNoggin

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Posted 16 May 2012 - 06:40 AM

Our new factory is now up and running, and first F-22 main hull was lifted out of the mold last week:

Attached File  Liftout.jpg   131.92K   70 downloads

and it is perfect.

It's great to finally have it out after sitting around for so long in the mold, while we made the interior molds etc. and moved factories.
More photos can be seen at http://www.f-boat.co...actory2010.html

Still much work to go, but we are getting there.

Ian Farrier
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nice! nice! nice! keep up the good work Ian!

#89 AClass USA 230

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Posted 16 May 2012 - 02:09 PM

It will be interesting to see how the F-22R stacks up performance wise boat for boat against the Corsair Sprints and Dashs. The F-22R is a beautiful boat and I appreciate the improvements Ian has done to the design as the Sprint 750 Mk I is basically just a re-tooled C-24 MkII with a taller rig and about 200 lbs lighter. But a couple of weeks ago, a group of two Sprint Mk I's, a Dash, and Mike Parsons on his C-24 Mk II at the US Trimaran Nationals were sailing pretty competitively (corrected time-wise) against Randy Smyth on his F-25C. Randy has been sailing Yo for about 18 years now I believe and he has the boat pretty tweaked. In the predominately light to moderate air buoy racing on Day 2 and Day 3, Yo was having a tough time correcting out which says a lot about the Sprint/Dash/C-24 Mk II light air performance. I suspect the Sprints/Dashs and the F-22R will sail pretty close boat for boat to each other in light to moderate air and I'd certainly give the nod to the F-22R in heavier air against the Sprint Mk I (due to the higher volume amas) but not necessarily against the Sprint Mk II and the Dash. Time will tell and I hope Mike Parsons has his new F-22R on the gulf coast in the next two years. Should be fun racing.

#90 richardstephens

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Posted 16 May 2012 - 02:26 PM

...
In the predominately light to moderate air buoy racing on Day 2 and Day 3, Yo was having a tough time correcting out which says a lot about the Sprint/Dash/C-24 Mk II light air performance.
...

Bob, FYI Randy did not sail on day 2. His crew DJ was steering Yo that day. And on Day 3 the the wind-shift during the race favored slower-rated boats.

#91 AClass USA 230

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Posted 16 May 2012 - 06:44 PM

Richard,

I think DJ was steering Yo pretty well on Saturday based on the deltas both Sat and Sun. We also saw the Sprints and Dashs sailing very competitively against Yo last year at the same event in the light air race and also at GYA Multihull Champs last summer. But once the breeze gets over 10 knots, Yo starts to really fly.

Cheers,

Bob

#92 munt

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Posted 16 May 2012 - 07:07 PM

How is the performance of the 25c (with R.S. aboard) relevant to the f-24s or the f-22r?



And most important of all...

Mr. Farrier, How much is the 22R gonna cost!!!????

#93 eric e

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Posted 16 May 2012 - 11:00 PM

what with this talk

and that of the 25' motive carbon tri

time for this pic again

and with the smaller cuddy cabin the F22 should be $50,000???

Attached Files



#94 Ian Farrier

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Posted 19 May 2012 - 09:30 PM

How is the performance of the 25c (with R.S. aboard) relevant to the f-24s or the f-22r?


Exactly. Debates on which boats will be faster, can be endless, and different designs are different designs. For most it is also far more important to have a roomy, practical and reliable boat rather than a fast one. If 'fast' was important, then everyone would be driving Lotus 7s, or sailing oversize day sailors, or C class cats. But such craft are usually very uncomfortable, wet, no good for cruising, and as a result not very popular.

As designer of the majority of folding trimarans around, and knowing all the factors involved, I can say the production F-22R will be the fastest boat of its type, based on the numbers, and having been improved in so many ways. It has my latest hull shapes, along with slimmer higher set beams, plus a much improved structure, and it is relatively easy to ensure the required performance level during the design stage. The F-22 will also have floats as big as they can be right from the start, but more importantly, with the extra buoyancy in the right places, being designed completely new from scratch to match the F-22s main hull and the F-22R taller rig.

The only real question is how much performance does one really want? I prefer good all round boats, where one can have both high performance and room, coupled with good safety margins. So I prefer not to go overboard on the rig, and work instead on making the whole boat as efficient as possible.

It is also important not to have just one model trying to be everything. Thus two rigs will be offered for the F-22, a standard rig for cruising and a taller 'R' rig for racing. Having two rigs means one can be sure the standard F-22 is not an overpowered racer pretending to be a cruiser. Such boats have even capsized on their delivery voyages, which is not a good look. The standard F-22 can thus be a truly safe and easy to handle cruiser with a sensible light rig, and a boat that will not scare friends or family, who usually only want a pleasant sail.

On the other hand, with no need to pretend to be a cruiser, the production F-22R can have a taller and much more aggressive racing rig, and thus be more what experienced racing crews want. Better, it still comes with good room inside, so can still be used as a cruiser by experienced sailors, or with a smaller set of cruising sails when needed.

But in spite of all the arguments, the most important factor remains the hand on the tiller. The best skippers will always count for far more than a taller rig, and it can be easy for a slow boat in good hands to beat a fast boat in unskilled hands. Hence these debates can be pointless, and it really is better to just go and enjoy the sailing.

And most important of all...
Mr. Farrier, How much is the 22R gonna cost!!!????


Which is the really hard question! Target prices in the US market for the standard F-22 currently range from around $25,000 for a basic kit to around US$48,000 for a basic sail away production boat, while the F-22R will cost more. It should also be emphasized that the prices given are only estimates and will vary over time, plus they are for high volume series production boats, not for low volume or professionally built 'one off' hulls or components. However, as always stated, these are target prices, and I will not be able to give an accurate price until after we have built the first few boats, and final pricing will depend on a number of factors, including the strength of the US dollar at that time. The above US dollar prices would have been higher the past few months for instance, but the US dollar has strengthened by around 5% the past week, meaning the stated price targets could be feasible once more.

The production F-22 main hull is also now trimmed, and waiting for the deck. Can be seen at:

http://www.f-boat.com/pages/News2/FM-Factory2010.html

Still some work to go on the deck itself however, as it is probably the one area with most changes/improvements from past designs. But at least the deck plug is now the focus of our attention.

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#95 eric e

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Posted 20 May 2012 - 11:11 AM

so Ian

would an ex-factory, chch, F22 cost NZ$60,000?

would that have a trailer? a spinnaker? choice of 3 cabin layouts?

#96 Ian Farrier

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Posted 20 May 2012 - 08:54 PM

so Ian

would an ex-factory, chch, F22 cost NZ$60,000?

would that have a trailer? a spinnaker? choice of 3 cabin layouts?


As stated above, I cannot give more accurate or detailed pricing until we have actually built the first few production boats, and the full specification and price list will not be made up until then. The NZ$ base price for a sail away boat will actually be around $65,000 + GST

Trailer? Probably an option - but everything is up in the air at present - some things unexpected will be included as standard, and some things not.

Spinnaker? Definitely not - the standard F-22 will not have a spinnaker as such. Spinnakers are not very cruiser friendly, and a screacher or similar is preferred for the ease of handling.

Choice or three cabin layouts? Not straight away, as we cannot build three molds at once. The first off the rank will be the full length cabin with aft cockpit. Both aft cabin and cuddy cabin options will follow soon after.

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#97 eric e

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Posted 20 May 2012 - 11:41 PM

The NZ$ base price for a sail away boat will actually be around $65,000 + GST
Trailer? Probably an option


with gst basically $75k and a year? then

must make offers on the well equipped $85k cubic tempting

http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/boats-marine/yachts-sail-boats/moored-boats/auction-469080531.htm






#98 Ian Farrier

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Posted 21 May 2012 - 12:21 AM


The NZ$ base price for a sail away boat will actually be around $65,000 + GST
Trailer? Probably an option


with gst basically $75k and a year? then

must make offers on the well equipped $85k cubic tempting

http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/boats-marine/yachts-sail-boats/moored-boats/auction-469080531.htm


I would buy it as it is a good boat - was built near Christchurch, and owner brought it by our factory a year or so back, where I was able to check it over. Seemed a very nice job with a number of innovations.

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#99 eric e

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Posted 21 May 2012 - 04:00 AM

yes

trailer, outboard,

screacher + furling assym

a couple? $1000 electronics

R type canting carbon mast and lifting foils

meets nz's 8.5 class mtr rule

it's arguable better value than a new F22R

and it's available now!

in fact has been available for 7months over the nz summer...

which presumably goes to show how price conscious the auckland market is for small multis

where $30k will get you into the 8.5mtr class with a refurbished GBE

http://www.trademe.c...n-435379009.htm

and $80k will get you a wooden winner

http://www.trademe.c...n-463109242.htm

oh the tyranny of distance, wives and taxes

#100 Ian Farrier

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Posted 21 May 2012 - 09:08 PM

yes

trailer, outboard,

screacher + furling assym

a couple? $1000 electronics

R type canting carbon mast and lifting foils

meets nz's 8.5 class mtr rule

it's arguable better value than a new F22R

and it's available now!


Attached File  F-82Cubic3.jpg   56.42K   175 downloads

Sounds like it could be the time to stop talking and start buying :-)

It's a very nice boat, will get you sailing, and will hold its value.

Ian Farrier




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