Jump to content


J BOATS J/70 Speedster


  • Please log in to reply
919 replies to this topic

#601 PurpleOnion

PurpleOnion

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 299 posts
  • Location:New York, NY

Posted 06 April 2012 - 06:36 PM



The boat still looks cooler than anything else in the J/stable right now,


Maybe but 1983 called and they want their keel back



Funny


Did it have wings?

#602 Timbo

Timbo

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,061 posts
  • Location:So Cal
  • Interests:Life's Short...

    Sail Fast!

Posted 07 April 2012 - 12:25 AM

Not if it's painted white of light grey... clear coats need to be re-done every couple of years.

1333733498[/url]' post='3661133']
Well, let me try one for the minority - it's the J forum, not the sport boat, right?

So, the boat is being marketed also as a family cruiser - a day sailor for a nice ride.

Is there anything much to this? That is, would it suit a single hander bringing perhaps a friend of two along for a sail, or is it overkill for that? Would you really need crew to run it correctly if you don't care about 1/10 of a knot or seconds per mile, etc.?

Or does the racing heritage or design components make it a little less of a family or leisure boat?

What do you think - will almost all of these be sold as OD racers and fleets?

It looks like it will be very easy to single hand. Large cockpit and reachable layout ought to be friend and family friendly. One of my criterion for any boat really, and until fleets are established, we're all going to be day sailing the critter.
Whatever I decide, my next boat is going to be a modest downsize for me and must have a retractable keel. Looking forward to maintenance in my driveway without going up and down a ladder. Smaller blocks, lines, etc. all part of the appeal.
One question I have is the carbon fiber rig - any long term issues with leaving that exposed to the sun?



#603 DB Cooper

DB Cooper

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 46 posts
  • Location:Pacific Coast

Posted 07 April 2012 - 03:47 AM

So, the boat is being marketed also as a family cruiser - a day sailor for a nice ride.


This is not possible....

#604 USA190520

USA190520

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,900 posts
  • Location:mostly here but not all there

Posted 07 April 2012 - 05:08 PM



So, the boat is being marketed also as a family cruiser - a day sailor for a nice ride.


This is not possible....


Yes it is.... Slap a cup holder on it and voila... Cruisin'

#605 USA190520

USA190520

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,900 posts
  • Location:mostly here but not all there

Posted 07 April 2012 - 09:48 PM

oh wow, i never saw that, good eye.

Wait...you can grill using the afterburners!!!

fuckin-a, what will they come up with next?

#606 Left Hook

Left Hook

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 7,222 posts

Posted 07 April 2012 - 10:32 PM

I dropped in on the two 70's sitting at the marina in Bristol today. Cockpit is indeed GIGANTIC and the hardware is very well laid out. Legs out hiking is going to be super comfy as long as the class can discourage people from having to bend themselves over the lifelines. The furler is a nice looking, clean bit of kit and the whole thing just struck me as well put together. While some people argue that a true sportie doesn't have a backstay I'm of the opinion that the ability it gives you to change gears makes it worthwhile - and the layout/implementation is well done on the 70 with a small crane (and possibly flicker?) and a block and tackle system led to the helmsman on either side.

I noticed that on the day NS tested their sails a flicker was present. Any verdict as to whether or not that's going to be implemented in the final boat?

WRT the keel... I must say that I agree with the anvil shape. Upwind the amount of lift it generates compared to a t bulb on a narrow strut seems very valuable. Not to mention how much easier it would be to keep in the groove for a novice helmsman, a group which will undoubtedly comprise at least some of the target market, especially in lighter air.

At some point I'm going to be in the market for a first boat of my own. This strikes me as something that someone could campaign for not too much money while still going fast and spending minimal time dealing with boat prep, moving it, etc. Keep it covered and on a trailer in your backyard in the winter and race the shit out of it with your friends in the summer.

#607 Firefly-DC

Firefly-DC

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 85 posts
  • Location:Beverly MA

Posted 09 April 2012 - 12:23 PM

Does anyone know it the J70 will have a single point lift for a crane or will rolling off the trailer be the only launch option?

#608 gvbyus

gvbyus

    Newbie

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 4 posts
  • Location:Annapolis, MD

Posted 09 April 2012 - 03:52 PM

Does anyone know it the J70 will have a single point lift for a crane or will rolling off the trailer be the only launch option?



It has a slick single point lift as well as the trailer launch option. Ill be going up for the dealer demo(I already sailed the boat a few weeks ago so I have seen the single point in person) on behalf of North Point Yacht Sales on Wednesday so if anyone has anyquestions PM me or better yet post them on here.

#609 EYESAILOR

EYESAILOR

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 408 posts
  • Interests:Myth busting.
    Bordeaux.
    Block Island Race Week

Posted 09 April 2012 - 05:22 PM

Ill be going up for the dealer demo(I already sailed the boat a few weeks ago so I have seen the single point in person) on behalf of North Point Yacht Sales on Wednesday so if anyone has anyquestions PM me or better yet post them on here.


Could you post a picture of the "afterburners" ?

#610 gvbyus

gvbyus

    Newbie

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 4 posts
  • Location:Annapolis, MD

Posted 09 April 2012 - 08:07 PM


It has a slick single point lift as well as the trailer launch option. Ill be going up for the dealer demo(I already sailed the boat a few weeks ago so I have seen the single point in person) on behalf of North Point Yacht Sales on Wednesday so if anyone has anyquestions PM me or better yet post them on here.



Thanks for both the information and the offer.

I'd like to know the basics on how the control lines are set up for the sprit, halyards, tack line, etc. I'd guess it is laid out like a J80, but they said you never have to leave the cockpit. Hard to tell where the halyards are, and if they go to turning blocks to let you hoist from near the companionway.

I assume you launch the kite from the companionway around and aft of the shrouds? How does the spin launch go with a crew of three?

Also would be interested in the specifics of the trailer, launching, how much the mast weighs, what attaches the forestay to the deck, can you leave the jib on the foil or does it have to come off for transport, how hard it is to rig and set up, how long it might take to go from trailer to ready to sail. What the total weight of boat and trailer is (and what the displacement of the boat actually will be).

Thanks again.




Snapper,


I will try and get back with answers and pictures later this week.

#611 gvbyus

gvbyus

    Newbie

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 4 posts
  • Location:Annapolis, MD

Posted 09 April 2012 - 08:09 PM


Ill be going up for the dealer demo(I already sailed the boat a few weeks ago so I have seen the single point in person) on behalf of North Point Yacht Sales on Wednesday so if anyone has anyquestions PM me or better yet post them on here.


Could you post a picture of the "afterburners" ?


EYESAILOR,


I will try but they may be too hot for my camera ;)

#612 Snapper95

Snapper95

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 506 posts

Posted 09 April 2012 - 11:19 PM

Snapper,


I will try and get back with answers and pictures later this week.


Many thanks. Any details or perceptions from your perspective would be appreciated.

#613 junta

junta

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 347 posts

Posted 10 April 2012 - 02:14 AM




It has a slick single point lift as well as the trailer launch option. Ill be going up for the dealer demo(I already sailed the boat a few weeks ago so I have seen the single point in person) on behalf of North Point Yacht Sales on Wednesday so if anyone has anyquestions PM me or better yet post them on here.



Thanks for both the information and the offer.

I'd like to know the basics on how the control lines are set up for the sprit, halyards, tack line, etc. I'd guess it is laid out like a J80, but they said you never have to leave the cockpit. Hard to tell where the halyards are, and if they go to turning blocks to let you hoist from near the companionway.

I assume you launch the kite from the companionway around and aft of the shrouds? How does the spin launch go with a crew of three?

Also would be interested in the specifics of the trailer, launching, how much the mast weighs, what attaches the forestay to the deck, can you leave the jib on the foil or does it have to come off for transport, how hard it is to rig and set up, how long it might take to go from trailer to ready to sail. What the total weight of boat and trailer is (and what the displacement of the boat actually will be).

Thanks again.


I am assuming it will be very similar to the U20 with halyard, sprit, and tack on one side, or halyard just forward of the companionway. easy to launch and retrieve by 2 people.

#614 Varan

Varan

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 548 posts

Posted 10 April 2012 - 03:59 AM


Does anyone know it the J70 will have a single point lift for a crane or will rolling off the trailer be the only launch option?



It has a slick single point lift as well as the trailer launch option. Ill be going up for the dealer demo(I already sailed the boat a few weeks ago so I have seen the single point in person) on behalf of North Point Yacht Sales on Wednesday so if anyone has anyquestions PM me or better yet post them on here.

Thank you. Two questions.
1: What does it weigh? (bulb vs hull)
2: Has J come up with a novel way to protect the tailing edge of the keel when it is being lifted or lowered?

Regards,
~ Varan

#615 MR.CLEAN

MR.CLEAN

    Anarchist

  • Reporters
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 32,353 posts
  • Location:Everywhere you want to be
  • Interests:.

Posted 10 April 2012 - 12:13 PM

he's right , when racing there won't be leeward drops


Are you not familiar with leeward gates, Dave? Ya know: Stretch and blow, right turn, right gate....pretty common to have leeward drops in the M24 class for instance, but then again that is one design...

#616 GybeSet®

GybeSet®

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 21,219 posts
  • Location:the 'River of Light', Tomorrow-morrow Land

Posted 10 April 2012 - 12:30 PM


s'95

racing no way you will launch aft of the shrouds

not unless you retrieved it that (wrong) way

seen the pics upwind in a breeze why are ppl still saying a crew of three

S.W. Reed
"And when I found that groove somewhere between high and pinchy and bow-down fast ... . With the three others sitting casually, legs out, I let the tiller extension float above my open hand, and the helm .... "
"With three bodies hiking under the single, low lifeline, "


Set
"During our ... and through the companionway as well. We used the latter technique and the mechanics were straightforward: the forward person launches the retractable pole and feeds the kite out of the companionway. The trimmer gets the tack to the pole and then goes to the halyard."

Douse
"The companionway douse was straightforward as well, and this is where crew selection would benefit having a smaller, more nimble person who is able to get low and forward near the shrouds for leeward drop. The clew is high and the foot fairly short, so shrimping incidences shouldn't be common. We did not attempt a Mexican, but I'm sure it would be the better move anyway."

he's right , when racing there won't be leeward drops


Weight

" but our sense was that somewhere in the vicinity of 600 to 620 pounds would be the likely range. Three-up would keep everyone entertained and make getting on and off the rail more fluid, but if I had it my way, I’d want three athletic 170-pounders and one petite or youth crew in the forward position."

_____________________________________________

whats the bulb weigh, whats the boat weigh

it's also high time the class rules re. crew restrictions & any weight restrictions are released


In AUS to race a trailable Elliott 7 effectively ( moderate not-extreme design, 550lb bulb) you would need 770 lbs (350k) of bodies, but don't think this is the upper limit, its closer to the lower

however they have been known to stack to 880 lbs (400k) and in one case 952 lbs (430kg) //// #2 link #3 link
"H sailed at 450 odd kg, winner at about 350 " (i.e 770lbs)

bear in mind its full road legal width 8' 2" on the Bmax levering that lower weight 770lbs , the j70 is not


#617 GybeSet®

GybeSet®

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 21,219 posts
  • Location:the 'River of Light', Tomorrow-morrow Land

Posted 10 April 2012 - 12:46 PM


he's right , when racing there won't be leeward drops


Are you not familiar with leeward gates, Dave? Ya know: Stretch and blow, right turn, right gate....pretty common to have leeward drops in the M24 class for instance, but then again that is one design...

you're right i was talking single mark

with two marks x coming in on either gybe .... 4 drop scenarios

one of the 4 is a plain vanilla leeward drop, other 3 mex &/or windward drops

#618 GRUMPY

GRUMPY

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 26,976 posts
  • Location:Balikpapan, Indonesia
  • Interests:Hobie Miracle 20

Posted 10 April 2012 - 02:16 PM

If Clean can out think you at the gate Davey you're in a world of hurt.

It's no wonder you don't have you're own boat. A tactical wizz like you should be able to hold a regular ride at least.

Wassup?

#619 Soley

Soley

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,827 posts
  • Location:This side of the Atlantic
  • Interests:Take a guess. It ain't too hard.....

Posted 10 April 2012 - 02:37 PM

WRT the keel... I must say that I agree with the anvil shape. Upwind the amount of lift it generates compared to a t bulb on a narrow strut seems very valuable. Not to mention how much easier it would be to keep in the groove for a novice helmsman, a group which will undoubtedly comprise at least some of the target market, especially in lighter air.


I don't agree;
Uniform lift is key to good performance upwind. That keel will just make a mess of laminar flow.
You lose the valuable end plate effect that a t-bulb generates.
The keel also has to weigh more to have the same righting moment. Not good for a "legs in" boat.

At some point I'm going to be in the market for a first boat of my own. This strikes me as something that someone could campaign for not too much money while still going fast and spending minimal time dealing with boat prep, moving it, etc. Keep it covered and on a trailer in your backyard in the winter and race the shit out of it with your friends in the summer.


What the hell is a kid in his twenties (or maybe thirties by the time you can afford one) doing with an old man boat like this??

#620 Left Hook

Left Hook

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 7,222 posts

Posted 10 April 2012 - 03:11 PM


WRT the keel... I must say that I agree with the anvil shape. Upwind the amount of lift it generates compared to a t bulb on a narrow strut seems very valuable. Not to mention how much easier it would be to keep in the groove for a novice helmsman, a group which will undoubtedly comprise at least some of the target market, especially in lighter air.


I don't agree;
Uniform lift is key to good performance upwind. That keel will just make a mess of laminar flow.
You lose the valuable end plate effect that a t-bulb generates.
The keel also has to weigh more to have the same righting moment. Not good for a "legs in" boat - Agreed, I see it becoming a legs out boat anyways.Also doesn't the increased chord length allow for a wider groove upwind with less propensity to stall?

At some point I'm going to be in the market for a first boat of my own. This strikes me as something that someone could campaign for not too much money while still going fast and spending minimal time dealing with boat prep, moving it, etc. Keep it covered and on a trailer in your backyard in the winter and race the shit out of it with your friends in the summer.


What the hell is a kid in his twenties (or maybe thirties by the time you can afford one) doing with an old man boat like this??


Hate hiking off hiking straps.

#621 Lee G

Lee G

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,514 posts
  • Location:the rough part of Stamford

Posted 10 April 2012 - 04:02 PM



WRT the keel... I must say that I agree with the anvil shape. Upwind the amount of lift it generates compared to a t bulb on a narrow strut seems very valuable. Not to mention how much easier it would be to keep in the groove for a novice helmsman, a group which will undoubtedly comprise at least some of the target market, especially in lighter air.


I don't agree;
Uniform lift is key to good performance upwind. That keel will just make a mess of laminar flow.
You lose the valuable end plate effect that a t-bulb generates.
The keel also has to weigh more to have the same righting moment. Not good for a "legs in" boat - Agreed, I see it becoming a legs out boat anyways.Also doesn't the increased chord length allow for a wider groove upwind with less propensity to stall?

At some point I'm going to be in the market for a first boat of my own. This strikes me as something that someone could campaign for not too much money while still going fast and spending minimal time dealing with boat prep, moving it, etc. Keep it covered and on a trailer in your backyard in the winter and race the shit out of it with your friends in the summer.


What the hell is a kid in his twenties (or maybe thirties by the time you can afford one) doing with an old man boat like this??


Hate hiking off hiking straps.


Why would be hiking on your own boat, espically in a class that will likely be owner/driver :blink:

#622 'moondance44

'moondance44

    Anarchist

  • Banned
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,165 posts
  • Location:Dodgy Bit Of Stamford, CT and The Cows, Graveyard of LIS where bluefish get blown off wire leaders

Posted 10 April 2012 - 04:19 PM




WRT the keel... I must say that I agree with the anvil shape. Upwind the amount of lift it generates compared to a t bulb on a narrow strut seems very valuable. Not to mention how much easier it would be to keep in the groove for a novice helmsman, a group which will undoubtedly comprise at least some of the target market, especially in lighter air.


I don't agree;
Uniform lift is key to good performance upwind. That keel will just make a mess of laminar flow.
You lose the valuable end plate effect that a t-bulb generates.
The keel also has to weigh more to have the same righting moment. Not good for a "legs in" boat - Agreed, I see it becoming a legs out boat anyways.Also doesn't the increased chord length allow for a wider groove upwind with less propensity to stall?

At some point I'm going to be in the market for a first boat of my own. This strikes me as something that someone could campaign for not too much money while still going fast and spending minimal time dealing with boat prep, moving it, etc. Keep it covered and on a trailer in your backyard in the winter and race the shit out of it with your friends in the summer.


What the hell is a kid in his twenties (or maybe thirties by the time you can afford one) doing with an old man boat like this??


Hate hiking off hiking straps.


Why would be hiking on your own boat, espically in a class that will likely be owner/driver :blink:



who;s going to buy drinks for the crew ?

#623 EYESAILOR

EYESAILOR

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 408 posts
  • Interests:Myth busting.
    Bordeaux.
    Block Island Race Week

Posted 10 April 2012 - 05:19 PM



WRT the keel... I must say that I agree with the anvil shape. Upwind the amount of lift it generates compared to a t bulb on a narrow strut seems very valuable. Not to mention how much easier it would be to keep in the groove for a novice helmsman, a group which will undoubtedly comprise at least some of the target market, especially in lighter air.


I don't agree;
Uniform lift is key to good performance upwind. That keel will just make a mess of laminar flow.
You lose the valuable end plate effect that a t-bulb generates.
The keel also has to weigh more to have the same righting moment. Not good for a "legs in" boat - Agreed, I see it becoming a legs out boat anyways.Also doesn't the increased chord length allow for a wider groove upwind with less propensity to stall?

At some point I'm going to be in the market for a first boat of my own. This strikes me as something that someone could campaign for not too much money while still going fast and spending minimal time dealing with boat prep, moving it, etc. Keep it covered and on a trailer in your backyard in the winter and race the shit out of it with your friends in the summer.


What the hell is a kid in his twenties (or maybe thirties by the time you can afford one) doing with an old man boat like this??


Hate hiking off hiking straps.


I sailed with a crew like you once.

Hated Hiking.
No feel for using weight to steer the boat.
No interest in the thrill of water, foils and sails.
Sat on the rail like it was a bar stool.

I think the only reason he preferred sail boats over power boats was that if you get invited out on someone's power boat you are expected to bring the beer but on a sail boat the skipper brings the beer. I s'pose its a good a reason as any. But I really hope the J70 doesnt get populated by all the lard asses who dont like hiking. It will be a very dull class.

#624 crash

crash

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,698 posts

Posted 10 April 2012 - 07:09 PM




WRT the keel... I must say that I agree with the anvil shape. Upwind the amount of lift it generates compared to a t bulb on a narrow strut seems very valuable. Not to mention how much easier it would be to keep in the groove for a novice helmsman, a group which will undoubtedly comprise at least some of the target market, especially in lighter air.


I don't agree;
Uniform lift is key to good performance upwind. That keel will just make a mess of laminar flow.
You lose the valuable end plate effect that a t-bulb generates.
The keel also has to weigh more to have the same righting moment. Not good for a "legs in" boat - Agreed, I see it becoming a legs out boat anyways.Also doesn't the increased chord length allow for a wider groove upwind with less propensity to stall?

At some point I'm going to be in the market for a first boat of my own. This strikes me as something that someone could campaign for not too much money while still going fast and spending minimal time dealing with boat prep, moving it, etc. Keep it covered and on a trailer in your backyard in the winter and race the shit out of it with your friends in the summer.


What the hell is a kid in his twenties (or maybe thirties by the time you can afford one) doing with an old man boat like this??


Hate hiking off hiking straps.


I sailed with a crew like you once.

Hated Hiking.
No feel for using weight to steer the boat.
No interest in the thrill of water, foils and sails.
Sat on the rail like it was a bar stool.

I think the only reason he preferred sail boats over power boats was that if you get invited out on someone's power boat you are expected to bring the beer but on a sail boat the skipper brings the beer. I s'pose its a good a reason as any. But I really hope the J70 doesnt get populated by all the lard asses who dont like hiking. It will be a very dull class.


I think it depends on how you define "hiking." HIking with your feet under straps off the side of a dinghy? Hiking of a trapeze on a high performance dinghy or cat? Hanging by your abs off the side of an "offshore" keelboat. I'm all for the former 2, but have no desire to subject my crew to the latter one. So I guess it depends. It'd be nice (from my perspective) to have a sport boat class that doesn't allow "hanging" as there are already plenty that do. But that's just me. Not sure why sitting vertically upright on the side with your legs over the side is not "hiking", but I realize its all in how we each define the term....

#625 Left Hook

Left Hook

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 7,222 posts

Posted 10 April 2012 - 08:02 PM

Hate hiking off hiking straps.


I sailed with a crew like you once.

Hated Hiking.
No feel for using weight to steer the boat.
No interest in the thrill of water, foils and sails.
Sat on the rail like it was a bar stool.

I think the only reason he preferred sail boats over power boats was that if you get invited out on someone's power boat you are expected to bring the beer but on a sail boat the skipper brings the beer. I s'pose its a good a reason as any. But I really hope the J70 doesnt get populated by all the lard asses who dont like hiking. It will be a very dull class.


Excuse me but what?

I said I hated hiking off of hiking straps... because I just don't find it pleasant and it's not fun for me - It's why I detested racing dinghies (and why the V640/VX One aren't my first choices for a boat). Same thing for the awful, nerve pinching, style of hanging done in the M24 class. No that there's anything wrong with those boats or that it doesn't make me a big pussy but it just isn't my cup of tea. How does that translate into any of the the points you made? Have you met me? Have you sailed with me? Because when I'm at a buoy regatta as a one member of a team all trying win I'm the exact opposite of what you're suggesting.

And Lee; if I were to buy a boat I'd share the fun of driving with my crew in non-OD/beercan races.

#626 mrpelicano

mrpelicano

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 496 posts
  • Location:New England
  • Interests:Racing sailboats, bicycling (road and mtb), guitar, wine, travel, pit bulls.

Posted 13 April 2012 - 06:27 PM

WRT "hiking", I've spent plenty of hours draped over the lifelines on M24's and keelboats of various sizes, hanging on the trapeze on 505's, and tucked under the hiking straps of numerous dinghies, so I've got nothing against "hiking" per se. However, my wife would really like to get on the water and go racing, but a back problem precludes the forms of hiking listed above, but does allow her to sit legs-out or legs-in on the rail. That would be a major appeal to her of a boat like the J/70 or the M20, and would make for a happier home life.

On the other hand, I'm also favorably inclined towards canting keels, so maybe I can talk her into Mini 6.5 proto. :D

#627 Bulbhunter

Bulbhunter

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 12,242 posts
  • Interests:SA is DEAD

Posted 13 April 2012 - 07:13 PM

MrPelicano if the 6.5 Proto is of any real interest save your money and look at them or other boats with a higher performance range than the J70. Given all you would be is board and a bit disappointed that you bought the station wagon instead of the GT sedan version. LOL

Plenty of the new sport boats even the older one's sail very well and competitive with two and legs in. If your thinking nationals with full crew of course you need to hike and do a fair number of things to up your competitive level but pretty much all the sporties sail quite well with feet in. Shoot the wife and I did fantastic for many years double handed feet in relaxed racing on the U20. Heck several single handed guys do fantastic feet in on the U20. So this whole debate is a bit funny as we all know you can make this feet in vs hard hike out thing as painful as you like but it comes down the the class and those sailing in it to enforce and crack down on cheating to keep things logical and comfortable.

#628 USA190520

USA190520

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,900 posts
  • Location:mostly here but not all there

Posted 14 April 2012 - 03:06 PM

Is there a U20 thread somewhere?

No?

#629 Bulbhunter

Bulbhunter

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 12,242 posts
  • Interests:SA is DEAD

Posted 14 April 2012 - 03:09 PM

Is there a U20 thread somewhere?

No?


Hey USA I've sailed Vipers very chill and legs in no hard hiking in some great conditions with just a couple of people on board the boat smokes along and is a joy to sail. You just work harder when the wind is up like SF 25 when you need your fee strapped down on the hiking straps. As I said all the new sport boats are quick compared to the heavy shit of years past and a wed night husband wife beer can is easily done on all of these boats with feet in and your still going to be sailing faster than the J24 with ragged out sails in the same Beer can race.

#630 USA190520

USA190520

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,900 posts
  • Location:mostly here but not all there

Posted 14 April 2012 - 04:05 PM

So that'd be a negative on the U20 thread huh?

#631 blisster

blisster

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 35 posts

Posted 15 April 2012 - 11:44 PM

Lookin' great @ 4:56



#632 knuckles

knuckles

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 962 posts

Posted 16 April 2012 - 12:16 AM

Lookin' great @ 4:56



There's some reaching going on in that video, but the portion from 4:56 on looks like fun.

#633 Jagtek Performance Products

Jagtek Performance Products

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 981 posts
  • Location:San Francisco Bay / Charleston, SC

Posted 17 April 2012 - 02:33 PM


Lookin' great @ 4:56



There's some reaching going on in that video, but the portion from 4:56 on looks like fun.


That looks like a lot of fun. Sure looks easy too. Those guys were pretty relaxed. Decent breeze too.

#634 MR.CLEAN

MR.CLEAN

    Anarchist

  • Reporters
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 32,353 posts
  • Location:Everywhere you want to be
  • Interests:.

Posted 17 April 2012 - 03:11 PM

I sailed the J/70 on Saturday right after I sailed the VX-One. Part one is done and should be up on the FP soon, and Part two (the J/70) will be up tonight.

#635 Varan

Varan

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 548 posts

Posted 18 April 2012 - 04:15 AM

I sailed the J/70 on Saturday right after I sailed the VX-One. Part one is done and should be up on the FP soon, and Part two (the J/70) will be up tonight.

soon, as in tomorrow?

#636 knuckles

knuckles

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 962 posts

Posted 18 April 2012 - 12:16 PM


I sailed the J/70 on Saturday right after I sailed the VX-One. Part one is done and should be up on the FP soon, and Part two (the J/70) will be up tonight.

soon, as in tomorrow?


How about....tomorrow?

#637 MR.CLEAN

MR.CLEAN

    Anarchist

  • Reporters
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 32,353 posts
  • Location:Everywhere you want to be
  • Interests:.

Posted 18 April 2012 - 01:11 PM



I sailed the J/70 on Saturday right after I sailed the VX-One. Part one is done and should be up on the FP soon, and Part two (the J/70) will be up tonight.

soon, as in tomorrow?


How about....tomorrow?


Ed put it up last night, which means J/70 review comes on tonight.

#638 Dewey Devil

Dewey Devil

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 28 posts
  • Location:Annapolis, MD

Posted 18 April 2012 - 01:54 PM

May have been mentioned before, but Annapolis will be Fleet #1...Seattle and Lake Norman fleets also formed.

#639 Damp Freddie

Damp Freddie

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,459 posts
  • Location:Kabul SC
  • Interests:sport boats, 59er poss' and developments: beer.

Posted 18 April 2012 - 03:22 PM

Thanks for putting the vid up Blister / Clean ?.


Looks like a cross between a lot of different sports boats/yachts ie bit j80, bit platu in the hull, bit melges, bit SB3.

I like the size actually.

15.7 in what looks like 16-18 knts breeze with gusts of about 21 makes it a pretty good converting machine with the stability to hold the speed.

What is the EU retail with racing sails gonna be?

#640 nroose

nroose

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,523 posts
  • Location:Berkeley

Posted 18 April 2012 - 03:37 PM

Lookin' great @ 4:56


Is he deploying a drogue at about 3:45???

#641 hermetic

hermetic

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 687 posts

Posted 18 April 2012 - 04:53 PM

You're not questioning Stu's crewing ability are you?

(spin halyard)

#642 Monster Mash

Monster Mash

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,738 posts
  • Location:SF Bay Area

Posted 18 April 2012 - 05:45 PM


Lookin' great @ 4:56


Is he deploying a drogue at about 3:45???



Not sure if thats a tounge in cheeck question or not but I do it all the time on my 22' er. Halyard goes overboard before the drop to keep it from being stepped on.. Halyard is of course water proof and floats. learned it from a Melges24 guy.

#643 Left Hook

Left Hook

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 7,222 posts

Posted 18 April 2012 - 07:58 PM



Lookin' great @ 4:56


Is he deploying a drogue at about 3:45???



Not sure if thats a tounge in cheeck question or not but I do it all the time on my 22' er. Halyard goes overboard before the drop to keep it from being stepped on.. Halyard is of course water proof and floats. learned it from a Melges24 guy.


SOP in the Atlantic class as well. Toss the halyard overboard and it will always run free and clean

#644 nroose

nroose

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,523 posts
  • Location:Berkeley

Posted 19 April 2012 - 05:52 AM

Sorry. I was just trying to make a joke. I guess I should try it sometime.

#645 Damp Freddie

Damp Freddie

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,459 posts
  • Location:Kabul SC
  • Interests:sport boats, 59er poss' and developments: beer.

Posted 19 April 2012 - 08:13 AM

Sorry. I was just trying to make a joke. I guess I should try it sometime.



Great way of foiling Somali Pirates too.

Not a bad brake pad, I wonder at 17 knts if the kite will actually want to come down with this technique ;-)

#646 jonathann99

jonathann99

    Newbie

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 4 posts

Posted 20 April 2012 - 06:31 PM

Anyone know how many have been sold so far?

#647 MR.CLEAN

MR.CLEAN

    Anarchist

  • Reporters
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 32,353 posts
  • Location:Everywhere you want to be
  • Interests:.

Posted 20 April 2012 - 08:13 PM

sorry for delays on my review. It is coming, that I promise!

#648 Varan

Varan

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 548 posts

Posted 21 April 2012 - 03:34 AM

sorry for delays on my review. It is coming, that I promise!

Almost fell for it... I knew there really wasn't a FP. How about posting it here?

#649 J24_guy

J24_guy

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 208 posts
  • Location:Marion, MA

Posted 21 April 2012 - 10:32 AM

I don't know, I am visiting CRW (not sailing in it this time) and the J70 hull has pretty nice lines, but my first thought about the sailplan was, you have to be kidding me. It looks horribly underpowered. I know it will have its place as the "old man's/safe/family-friendly" sportsboat, but that dumpy little rig on top of a sleek hull has me wondering. OTOH, it's a nice size and looks to be the offspring of a J24/J80 marriage. Undoubtedly things are pretty well sorted on it. But that sailplan looks almosts like a joke.

#650 Varan

Varan

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 548 posts

Posted 21 April 2012 - 11:23 PM

I don't know, I am visiting CRW (not sailing in it this time) and the J70 hull has pretty nice lines, but my first thought about the sailplan was, you have to be kidding me. It looks horribly underpowered. I know it will have its place as the "old man's/safe/family-friendly" sportsboat, but that dumpy little rig on top of a sleek hull has me wondering. OTOH, it's a nice size and looks to be the offspring of a J24/J80 marriage. Undoubtedly things are pretty well sorted on it. But that sailplan looks almosts like a joke.

fail to see any resemblance to a j24, except for maybe the trailer. More like some cross breeding between the 90 and 22 IMHO.

#651 8:07 to New Haven

8:07 to New Haven

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 119 posts
  • Location:WLIS

Posted 22 April 2012 - 01:54 AM

I don't know, I am visiting CRW (not sailing in it this time) and the J70 hull has pretty nice lines, but my first thought about the sailplan was, you have to be kidding me. It looks horribly underpowered. I know it will have its place as the "old man's/safe/family-friendly" sportsboat, but that dumpy little rig on top of a sleek hull has me wondering. OTOH, it's a nice size and looks to be the offspring of a J24/J80 marriage. Undoubtedly things are pretty well sorted on it. But that sailplan looks almosts like a joke.


The boom could be 1.5' longer

#652 bottlerocket

bottlerocket

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 239 posts
  • Location:Texas

Posted 22 April 2012 - 04:35 PM

"It looks horribly underpowered. "

I guess what matters is how does it do upwind in 22 knots and in 5 knots. I seems to be moving along fine upwind in the videos.

#653 Chinook

Chinook

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 103 posts
  • Location:f
  • Interests:g

Posted 24 April 2012 - 02:06 AM

Went for a demo sail on Saturday on hull number 1 in 8-10 knots. A really nice sail with a fun boat. It checks off enough boxes for me to be interested: easy to sail, fun, small cabin for kids to escape to, relatively quick, low crew requirements, easily trailerable, no wood, no complex systems, one design possibilities.

Anyone else from WLIS thinking about getting one? This is probably the biggest factor that is stopping me from pulling out the checkbook. Don't want to spend several years sailing PHRF hoping for a fleet and WLIS is not generally favorable to small keelboat fleets. The Melges 24 fleet was here and gone quickly, the J80s seem to have revived a little bit, and there are a couple of local only J24 fleets. Does the J/70 have a chance?

Drop me a line if you are in WLIS and are thinking about a J/70.

Chinook

#654 MisterMoon

MisterMoon

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,112 posts
  • Location:Acworth, GA

Posted 24 April 2012 - 02:30 PM

sorry for delays on my review. It is coming, that I promise!


<crickets>

#655 AquaStig

AquaStig

    Newbie

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 1 posts

Posted 24 April 2012 - 02:45 PM

Drop me a line if you are in WLIS and are thinking about a J/70.

Chinook



I'm in WLIS and feeling the same way about the 70. Am worried that the Viper in Stamford, IHYC and Larchmont and the K6 at American have a solid first-mover-advantage.... it would be much easier to jump on the momentum of an existing fleet with dynamic leadership. Also, looking at the AYC Spring Series registrations it looks a bit anemic, at least compared to what I remember in the mid 00's and I wonder--no matter the boat--is anybody coming out to play given the economics and crew issues (though i think the 70 is a powerful response to both of those factors). I think there are a lot of people around looking for something more like a keelboat and this would hit the sweetspot, but getting them to commit and then get out on the race course has always been way more of a challenge than one one imagine. Please keep in touch with regard to the fleet development, if I saw a strong interesting in WLIS and one design starts that would move the needle for me. Regards

#656 GybeSet®

GybeSet®

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 21,219 posts
  • Location:the 'River of Light', Tomorrow-morrow Land

Posted 24 April 2012 - 03:06 PM

Am worried that the Viper in Stamford, IHYC and Larchmont .... have a solid first-mover-advantage.... it would be much easier to jump on the momentum of an existing fleet with dynamic leadership.


no need to worry, just take the easy option

you forgot most numerous sportsboat class at CRW, Js and Ms were there but not as many as the Viper

it's good to be worried about competition, see \/ \/

" 6. Viper teams that included one AC sailor, 2 Olympians, the 5-0-5 NA champion, Soling NA Champion, Sonar NA champion, a top ranked Melges 32 skipper,Lightening NA champion, Last years Viper NA champion and Pan Am Champions, Australia's youth match racing champion, Interclub NA champion, 4 college All-Americans, Rhodes 19 NA champion, Snipe NA champion, 8x Shields NA champion, Ultimate 20 NA champion, two Rondar "works" boats, and a deep talent bench of amateur sailors. "


is that too hot for you ? if so a Jboat will suit you fine

#657 SailAR

SailAR

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 770 posts

Posted 24 April 2012 - 05:07 PM

for WLIS I would wait to see if Noroton moves in some direction. Without them, I don't think you have a chance of a sustainable new one design fleet west of Middle Ground. Larchmont has fully embraced the Viper so for sportsboats, you're going to be hard pressed to start a third fleet. IMHO.

#658 port tack

port tack

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 295 posts

Posted 24 April 2012 - 05:23 PM

Sailed my Vuper this past weekend in Charleston. They had the J70 cruising around our trying to show off a little. For a sportboat the Main looks small, boom is very short (in regard to cockpit). They were trying hard to get it to plane, sailing really hot boat never jumped up just pushed more water and finally broached, the boached again. This boat is going after the M20 crowd who don't what to hire professionals to sail with them, in my opinion, not the Viper, VX, or K6 crowd. I think for its market its a nice little package, but understand it is much much more of a keelboat than any of the other 20 ft sporties. Just my .02 cents.

#659 Dewey Devil

Dewey Devil

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 28 posts
  • Location:Annapolis, MD

Posted 24 April 2012 - 07:48 PM

What, no review yet? Smells of conspiracy, I tell you...

#660 PurpleOnion

PurpleOnion

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 299 posts
  • Location:New York, NY

Posted 25 April 2012 - 02:34 AM

What, no review yet? Smells of conspiracy, I tell you...

The last thread about that lack of a report that I commented on magically disappeared.
I was hoping to read a "fair and balanced" review of the boat, but that doesn't seem likely anymore.
It would be interesting to understand the reasons for the delay, but that's probably not something we'll be privy to. We are just the readers, not the sponsors.

#661 narecet

narecet

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,221 posts

Posted 25 April 2012 - 02:40 AM

A funny thing may be that quite likely 95-99% of us would have thought the review as written was positive and would have enhanced our image of the boat, regardless of probably not being written in J-speak (jets, afterburners, smokin' hot, firm buttocks, etc.)

Of course, it's also possible that delay could be for an unrelated reason.

#662 PurpleOnion

PurpleOnion

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 299 posts
  • Location:New York, NY

Posted 25 April 2012 - 02:51 AM

A funny thing may be that quite likely 95-99% of us would have thought the review as written was positive and would have enhanced our image of the boat, regardless of probably not being written in J-speak (jets, afterburners, smokin' hot, firm buttocks, etc.)

Of course, it's also possible that delay could be for an unrelated reason.


As with most "scandals", it's the lack of information that fuels the ridiculous speculation. Being a anarchic bunch, the clues left here only fuel speculation:
- statement that the test ride was taken right after enjoying the VX
- posted review of the VX with a statement that J/70 review will follow
- statement that the J/70 review was in the queue and would show up the next day
- statement that the review was coming soon "that I promise"
- mysterious deletion of a thread asking where the review was

to paraphrase my late father-in-law: I raised my kids (this website community) to be rebellious, I just don't like when they rebel against me.

#663 PurpleOnion

PurpleOnion

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 299 posts
  • Location:New York, NY

Posted 25 April 2012 - 12:43 PM

What, no review yet? Smells of conspiracy, I tell you...

The review is posted and it's well done.

On to another ridiculous conspiracy.

#664 narecet

narecet

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,221 posts

Posted 25 April 2012 - 01:32 PM

Agreed, excellent review. Finally, at least to my take, straight and informative information.

As a side note, though the part about my being in agreement with the Ass from Australia is itself somewhat disturbing, now that we have the actual weight those that were criticizing my and his estimating separately that the boat would need to be about 1800 lb can now wonder how much basis they had for objecting. It's not rocket science folks.

#665 MisterMoon

MisterMoon

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,112 posts
  • Location:Acworth, GA

Posted 25 April 2012 - 01:58 PM

From what I can tell, the biggest critics of this boat are complaining it's not extreme enough. I thought the car analogy was apt. However, I don't want a shifter cart. I'd rather have the hot hatch. I like hot hatches. More importantly, Momma would approve the purchase of a hot hatch because it's practical as a daily driver. A shifter cart (or an Ariel Atom!) can only be used on track days. I think one of the reasons J/boats is so successful is they understand that in order to sell boats that they need to overcome spousal objections to what is essentially a toy.

If I were in the market for a new boat right now, I'd sign up for the J/70.

#666 Dewey Devil

Dewey Devil

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 28 posts
  • Location:Annapolis, MD

Posted 25 April 2012 - 02:17 PM


What, no review yet? Smells of conspiracy, I tell you...

The review is posted and it's well done.

On to another ridiculous conspiracy.


I was just giving you guys crap...peace

#667 hermetic

hermetic

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 687 posts

Posted 25 April 2012 - 02:33 PM

What I got out of the low tech review: The carbon spars are pretty.

Again, it's too bad that the sailmakers that sailed the things in RI are unable to post here.

#668 PurpleOnion

PurpleOnion

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 299 posts
  • Location:New York, NY

Posted 25 April 2012 - 02:44 PM



What, no review yet? Smells of conspiracy, I tell you...

The review is posted and it's well done.

On to another ridiculous conspiracy.


I was just giving you guys crap...peace


So was I. No offense was intended. Only self-mockery.

#669 ctutmark

ctutmark

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 775 posts
  • Interests:Herding cats

Posted 25 April 2012 - 03:25 PM

What I got out of the low tech review: The carbon spars are pretty.

Again, it's too bad that the sailmakers that sailed the things in RI are unable to post here.


You mean like in post #384?

#670 narecet

narecet

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,221 posts

Posted 25 April 2012 - 03:58 PM

Post #384 was not by any sailmaker but rather by a J Boat dealer.

It's not surprising that the sailmakers would choose not to post. It would not be professional to do so unless specifically asked by the client, really.

#671 narecet

narecet

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,221 posts

Posted 25 April 2012 - 04:20 PM

Right now I'm relegated to the boats at the community center... not clear why that should matter to you?

When finances allow, the VX is appealing more than the J/70. To my taste the J/70 is plowing too much at the total weight with 600 lb crew, and I don't think it will do well with crew of 360 lb without trapezing, and trapezing seems odd for that boat. If business improves enough, I would go with the Shaw 650 even given the cost of importing.

But I don't think you really were interested: given your previous responses to my posts, I take the above as more of a snide remark.

#672 hermetic

hermetic

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 687 posts

Posted 25 April 2012 - 04:37 PM


Post #384 was not by any sailmaker but rather by a J Boat dealer.

It's not surprising that the sailmakers would choose not to post. It would not be professional to do so unless specifically asked by the client, really.


It would be counterproductive to proffer ANY criticism of a boat that you are trying to become a one design provider for (I know, Captain Obvious here). So I'm not sure why the poster values the opinion of a sailmaker.


I value the opinion of Kerry and Timmy despite the fact that they are sailmakers. They've got just a bit more experience than Block. Just a bit.

And pro's avoid this place because it's a sewer.

#673 narecet

narecet

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,221 posts

Posted 25 April 2012 - 05:01 PM

It wouldn't matter if it were Her Majesty's Own Royal Website: it would be unprofessional to post opinions about a boat unless asked to do so by the client or unless it's just indisputably exactly the sort of material that their own marketing people are putting out and definitely would approve of.

#674 Monster Mash

Monster Mash

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,738 posts
  • Location:SF Bay Area

Posted 25 April 2012 - 05:53 PM

I've seen many referances to the J70 being a scaled down version of the J80. If one were to substitute J80 for J70 in the Clean review would it still be accurate?

#675 ctutmark

ctutmark

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 775 posts
  • Interests:Herding cats

Posted 25 April 2012 - 07:41 PM

Post #384 was not by any sailmaker but rather by a J Boat dealer.

It's not surprising that the sailmakers would choose not to post. It would not be professional to do so unless specifically asked by the client, really.


And Norman is also a partner in Quantum Sails, been a sailmaker far longer than he's been a J Dealer. Just sayin....

#676 narecet

narecet

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,221 posts

Posted 25 April 2012 - 07:46 PM


Post #384 was not by any sailmaker but rather by a J Boat dealer.

It's not surprising that the sailmakers would choose not to post. It would not be professional to do so unless specifically asked by the client, really.


And Norman is also a partner in Quantum Sails, been a sailmaker far longer than he's been a J Dealer. Just sayin....


Thank you for the correction.

#677 A Florida Redneck

A Florida Redneck

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,556 posts
  • Location:Punta Gorda, Florida

Posted 26 April 2012 - 01:59 AM

Very nice review Clean. Encouraging that Clean sailed the boat in relatively light conditions which would expose its reportedly (rumored) underpowered sailplan but still like the boat. Would like to see a followup review after sailing in some breeze. That might seal the deal for a whole lot of people, not just former J owners wanting to downsize....
Seems like the perfect boat for Charlotte Harbor...

#678 bottlerocket

bottlerocket

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 239 posts
  • Location:Texas

Posted 26 April 2012 - 12:59 PM

Where is the review again? I even checked the front page.

#679 narecet

narecet

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,221 posts

Posted 26 April 2012 - 01:01 PM

About 20% down the page. After "trades / no trades" and before "van go."

#680 GybeSet®

GybeSet®

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 21,219 posts
  • Location:the 'River of Light', Tomorrow-morrow Land

Posted 26 April 2012 - 01:34 PM

Very nice review Clean. Encouraging that Clean sailed the boat in relatively light conditions which would expose its reportedly (rumored) underpowered sailplan but still like the boat. Would like to see a followup review after sailing in some breeze. That might seal the deal for a whole lot of people, not just former J owners wanting to downsize....
Seems like the perfect boat for Charlotte Harbor...


thats not the primary unexplained rumour issue, unfort. Clean got light weather

it's upwind in a breeze, with the ma, pa plus kid crew

this is exasperated by the deliberate lack of real data on bulb weight and OA weight, and deletion from the web of THAT photo

I say it need three adults over the side like THAT west coast pic, plus one or two backs to the lines

#681 Chris Bulger

Chris Bulger

    Newbie

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 14 posts
  • Location:Newport
  • Interests:yes

Posted 26 April 2012 - 04:52 PM

Regarding your review.... setting the facts straight....pure innovation has made J Boats the Apple of yacht design.

J Boats biggest success has come via innovation. When the 1st J24 was built - it was a radical innovative boat designed to compete in handicap events under the Off Soundings Rule. It was so dominant that the order book filled and it became a one design by default. The "Mac." After designing many great products behind the J/24, in 1992/93 they changed the sport again with 2 innovative designs - the J/105 (iPad) and the J/80 (iPhone).

Rejecting the arbitrary notion that a "sport boat" must have a lifting keel (c'mon, once we need lead down there - who cares if it goes up and down) - J Boats was a major innovator of the entire category with the launch of the J/80. They also took amateur offshore one design to the next level with the J/105.

I know that it is popular for you to dismiss the J/80 as an old fashion design - but this point of view prioritizes "fashion" over real design innovation. Tthe fact is that if you gave Melges or anyone the following spec:
  • a planing sport boat
  • that could be wet-sailed
  • materials that allowed easy maintenance
  • $50K ish
  • hulls to remain competitive at the top level for +20 years
....even with 2000 computers and the latest FEA/CFD tools they couldn't beat the J/80 by more than 3%. When a design goes 25 years without being improved upon - that defines innovation! This is why we see +100 boat fleets at regattas in Europe where sailing and design rule over consumerism and fashion.

J Boats has built a brand and loyal following by remarkable design innovation of a handful of boats - including the J/80. Many of their products are strong, but more"me too" and leverage the brand following. As to the 70, it seems to be in the later category.....so I guess I am largely agreeing with your take on the boat....just can't take the J/80 without some defense..

#682 narecet

narecet

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,221 posts

Posted 26 April 2012 - 05:18 PM

Posted Image

#683 B30

B30

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 589 posts
  • Location:NYC

Posted 26 April 2012 - 06:01 PM

I've seen many referances to the J70 being a scaled down version of the J80. If one were to substitute J80 for J70 in the Clean review would it still be accurate?

I sailed the boat several times this past weekend in Charleston. I am not in the boating industry. I used to sail a J80 called Monster Lady #63 years ago. We had some successes and won some events so I feel I know the 80 as well as anyone. I can tell you the boats are similar in concept, but sail very differently. The 70 is much more fun to helm and will reward a good helmsman more than the 80. It accelerates and responds faster and gives better feedback. Although not a rocket it will get a full plane on a run in 11 or 12 knots. The 80 needs about 5 knots more to the same. My first sail was double handed. The boat was easily sailed by 2 up and down wind with the chute. 3 crew was comfortable. 4 would leave someone with absolutely nothing to do. I came off the boat each time with a smile on my face. It is a very comfortable boat to sail. None of the controls pull very hard, the seating both legs in and out are similar to the 80 which I mean to say is good. It is a boat that can be sailed to high level without a lot of muscle. I feel this is important as there are some great sailors who are not in the best shape due to age or just poor conditioning who would love the chance to compete in sporty boat. The 70 will give them a chance.

I rigged and launched the 70 and the difference between the two boats here is huge. No crane or gin pole needed. Ramp launchable (this is what we did) and no need for a large SUV. A midsized one will do just fine. The keel up and down using a battery powered hand drill worked great.

As for comparisons to the viper and vx (almost the same boat by my eye). It is similar but different. The biggest difference is muscle. Admit it or not, but to compete at the top of these classes you must be great shape. You must be able to hike hard, tack and jibe fast, squat or be on your knees while being nimble and the controls can really load up. This is great. I am glad there are boats that push the crews to limit and reward them for it. The 70 is for those that can't or don't want to work so hard and still be able to compete at the top of the class. The sad truth is to get this some performance must be sacrificed. I think the J70 handles this balancing act rather well. Another plus is that if you have girls on your crew, the small cabin will make a huge differeance. They won't have to dehydrate themselves because there is no place for "relief."

Flame away.

#684 jokerx9

jokerx9

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 96 posts
  • Location:NY

Posted 26 April 2012 - 06:06 PM

Regarding your review.... setting the facts straight....pure innovation has made J Boats the Apple of yacht design.

J Boats biggest success has come via innovation. When the 1st J24 was built - it was a radical innovative boat designed to compete in handicap events under the Off Soundings Rule. It was so dominant that the order book filled and it became a one design by default. The "Mac." After designing many great products behind the J/24, in 1992/93 they changed the sport again with 2 innovative designs - the J/105 (iPad) and the J/80 (iPhone).

Rejecting the arbitrary notion that a "sport boat" must have a lifting keel (c'mon, once we need lead down there - who cares if it goes up and down) - J Boats was a major innovator of the entire category with the launch of the J/80. They also took amateur offshore one design to the next level with the J/105.

I know that it is popular for you to dismiss the J/80 as an old fashion design - but this point of view prioritizes "fashion" over real design innovation. Tthe fact is that if you gave Melges or anyone the following spec:

  • a planing sport boat
  • that could be wet-sailed
  • materials that allowed easy maintenance
  • $50K ish
  • hulls to remain competitive at the top level for +20 years
....even with 2000 computers and the latest FEA/CFD tools they couldn't beat the J/80 by more than 3%. When a design goes 25 years without being improved upon - that defines innovation! This is why we see +100 boat fleets at regattas in Europe where sailing and design rule over consumerism and fashion.

J Boats has built a brand and loyal following by remarkable design innovation of a handful of boats - including the J/80. Many of their products are strong, but more"me too" and leverage the brand following. As to the 70, it seems to be in the later category.....so I guess I am largely agreeing with your take on the boat....just can't take the J/80 without some defense..



HAHAHHAHAHA I dont usually reply that much but this just made me laugh and I have to call bullshit as I see it. I'll give you the j24 and j105, but I would hardly even remotely come close to calling jboats the "mac" of boat design and from everything that I have seen, I dont think they strive as a company to be the "apple" of boat design. Their interested in putting out a good quality boat, not nessarily the most innovative. If it happens, great, but I dont think this is their main foucs. And fact check - the j80 was introduced after the melges 24 and believe me there is not much innovative about it. I owned a j80 for a while. Great boat, loved sailing it, but it wasnt the "iphone" in no shape or form back then. Good post, made me laugh, but I think your a little sligtly off here!

#685 Snapper95

Snapper95

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 506 posts

Posted 26 April 2012 - 08:00 PM

No flames here- Thanks for your perspective, Mr B30.
Can you comment on the rigging process? How long does it take, can you do things to expedite the process before showing up at the marina?
Did you get a sense of how heavy the mast is, can it be stepped by one person with a helper that merely inserts a pin for the forestay?

#686 Steam Flyer

Steam Flyer

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,963 posts
  • Location:Eastern NC

Posted 26 April 2012 - 08:13 PM

....
I used to sail a J80 called Monster Lady #63 years ago. We had some successes and won some events so I feel I know the 80 as well as anyone. I can tell you the boats are similar in concept, but sail very differently. The 70 is much more fun to helm and will reward a good helmsman more than the 80.
... ...


Is there ANY boat that reward a crummy helmsman?

FB- Doug

#687 port tack

port tack

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 295 posts

Posted 26 April 2012 - 08:23 PM


I've seen many referances to the J70 being a scaled down version of the J80. If one were to substitute J80 for J70 in the Clean review would it still be accurate?

I sailed the boat several times this past weekend in Charleston. I am not in the boating industry. I used to sail a J80 called Monster Lady #63 years ago. We had some successes and won some events so I feel I know the 80 as well as anyone. I can tell you the boats are similar in concept, but sail very differently. The 70 is much more fun to helm and will reward a good helmsman more than the 80. It accelerates and responds faster and gives better feedback. Although not a rocket it will get a full plane on a run in 11 or 12 knots. The 80 needs about 5 knots more to the same. My first sail was double handed. The boat was easily sailed by 2 up and down wind with the chute. 3 crew was comfortable. 4 would leave someone with absolutely nothing to do. I came off the boat each time with a smile on my face. It is a very comfortable boat to sail. None of the controls pull very hard, the seating both legs in and out are similar to the 80 which I mean to say is good. It is a boat that can be sailed to high level without a lot of muscle. I feel this is important as there are some great sailors who are not in the best shape due to age or just poor conditioning who would love the chance to compete in sporty boat. The 70 will give them a chance.

I rigged and launched the 70 and the difference between the two boats here is huge. No crane or gin pole needed. Ramp launchable (this is what we did) and no need for a large SUV. A midsized one will do just fine. The keel up and down using a battery powered hand drill worked great.

As for comparisons to the viper and vx (almost the same boat by my eye). It is similar but different. The biggest difference is muscle. Admit it or not, but to compete at the top of these classes you must be great shape. You must be able to hike hard, tack and jibe fast, squat or be on your knees while being nimble and the controls can really load up. This is great. I am glad there are boats that push the crews to limit and reward them for it. The 70 is for those that can't or don't want to work so hard and still be able to compete at the top of the class. The sad truth is to get this some performance must be sacrificed. I think the J70 handles this balancing act rather well. Another plus is that if you have girls on your crew, the small cabin will make a huge differeance. They won't have to dehydrate themselves because there is no place for "relief."

Flame away.


I think you got it just about right. Not sure about the planing in 11-12 knots on a run though, many reaching up a bit ;)

#688 6924

6924

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 711 posts

Posted 26 April 2012 - 08:26 PM

More like the Oldsmobile of sailboats

#689 pwink

pwink

    Newbie

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 5 posts
  • Location:Buffalo, NY
  • Interests:racing

Posted 26 April 2012 - 08:50 PM

Anyone know the target sail area (100%) for the boat? Would like to know the SA/D ratio.

#690 B30

B30

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 589 posts
  • Location:NYC

Posted 26 April 2012 - 08:51 PM



I've seen many referances to the J70 being a scaled down version of the J80. If one were to substitute J80 for J70 in the Clean review would it still be accurate?

I sailed the boat several times this past weekend in Charleston. I am not in the boating industry. I used to sail a J80 called Monster Lady #63 years ago. We had some successes and won some events so I feel I know the 80 as well as anyone. I can tell you the boats are similar in concept, but sail very differently. The 70 is much more fun to helm and will reward a good helmsman more than the 80. It accelerates and responds faster and gives better feedback. Although not a rocket it will get a full plane on a run in 11 or 12 knots. The 80 needs about 5 knots more to the same. My first sail was double handed. The boat was easily sailed by 2 up and down wind with the chute. 3 crew was comfortable. 4 would leave someone with absolutely nothing to do. I came off the boat each time with a smile on my face. It is a very comfortable boat to sail. None of the controls pull very hard, the seating both legs in and out are similar to the 80 which I mean to say is good. It is a boat that can be sailed to high level without a lot of muscle. I feel this is important as there are some great sailors who are not in the best shape due to age or just poor conditioning who would love the chance to compete in sporty boat. The 70 will give them a chance.

I rigged and launched the 70 and the difference between the two boats here is huge. No crane or gin pole needed. Ramp launchable (this is what we did) and no need for a large SUV. A midsized one will do just fine. The keel up and down using a battery powered hand drill worked great.

As for comparisons to the viper and vx (almost the same boat by my eye). It is similar but different. The biggest difference is muscle. Admit it or not, but to compete at the top of these classes you must be great shape. You must be able to hike hard, tack and jibe fast, squat or be on your knees while being nimble and the controls can really load up. This is great. I am glad there are boats that push the crews to limit and reward them for it. The 70 is for those that can't or don't want to work so hard and still be able to compete at the top of the class. The sad truth is to get this some performance must be sacrificed. I think the J70 handles this balancing act rather well. Another plus is that if you have girls on your crew, the small cabin will make a huge differeance. They won't have to dehydrate themselves because there is no place for "relief."

Flame away.


I think you got it just about right. Not sure about the planing in 11-12 knots on a run though, many reaching up a bit ;)

Youre part right. That is about the windspeed I thought reaching up to plane would be worth the trade off on a run leg. Time will tell.

#691 B30

B30

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 589 posts
  • Location:NYC

Posted 26 April 2012 - 08:59 PM

More like the Oldsmobile of sailboats

Attached Thumbnails

  • 1970-oldsmobile-442.jpg


#692 RockHead

RockHead

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,851 posts
  • Location:Marblehead, MA

Posted 27 April 2012 - 01:38 AM

As for comparisons to the viper and vx (almost the same boat by my eye). It is similar but different. The biggest difference is muscle. Admit it or not, but to compete at the top of these classes you must be great shape. You must be able to hike hard, tack and jibe fast, squat or be on your knees while being nimble and the controls can really load up. This is great. I am glad there are boats that push the crews to limit and reward them for it. The 70 is for those that can't or don't want to work so hard and still be able to compete at the top of the class. The sad truth is to get this some performance must be sacrificed. I think the J70 handles this balancing act rather well. Another plus is that if you have girls on your crew, the small cabin will make a huge differeance. They won't have to dehydrate themselves because there is no place for "relief."


I haven't sailed a J/70 yet, just crawled around on the display boat in Charleston, and saw the demo boat sailing. I think J/Boats really hit the target for their market.

I'm guessing you may not have sailed a Viper, so I'd just like to politely disagree with one statement. The fact is, that not a lot of muscle is required. In fact, the lighter the boat, the lower the sheet loads are, as the boat simply accelerates, rather than loading up. It does reward hard hiking upwind, yes. Most performance boats do. I'm not sure how comfy the legs out hiking will be on the J/70 after sitting on the one on shore. I can foresee people adopting a near Melges 24 type max hike -we'll see. Tack and gybe quickly? Again, yes, most all boats want that. Squat or be on your knees? Not on a Viper.

Take a look at this Viper onboard video from CRW. There's a tack at 0:50, spin set at 1:20. This is in about 10-12 knots.




Again, like most boats, practiced technique trumps raw muscle. No one squatting or kneeling. 18 y.o. kid hoisting the kite (first time on a Viper). 47 y.o. geezer with the camera (me) trimming. We have kids from 8 to 70 racing Vipers. Loads are quite manageable. I'd invite you (or anyone) to come sailing with me and see for yourself.

The J/70 has a lot going for it, and is a very different boat from a Viper -cabin, legs out which some will prefer over hiking straps. It's going to help grow the sportboat segment, and it is more conservative. Your choice depends on what your preferences are.

#693 MR.CLEAN

MR.CLEAN

    Anarchist

  • Reporters
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 32,353 posts
  • Location:Everywhere you want to be
  • Interests:.

Posted 27 April 2012 - 08:17 AM

Youre part right. That is about the windspeed I thought reaching up to plane would be worth the trade off on a run leg. Time will tell.


You're still in soak mode in a Melges 24 in 12 knots of breeze downwind. I imagine the 70 is closer to 15. 80 is closer to 18, at least that's what I learned watching them in KW and Charleston a few dozen times.

#694 hermetic

hermetic

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 687 posts

Posted 27 April 2012 - 10:40 AM

I'm trying to think of an instance where the J's have jammed their advertising into a viper / rondar thread.

#695 narecet

narecet

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,221 posts

Posted 27 April 2012 - 12:46 PM

It would have gone about like Ford Taurus people pushing into a BMW M3 discussion.

#696 port tack

port tack

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 295 posts

Posted 27 April 2012 - 01:31 PM

I'm trying to think of an instance where the J's have jammed their advertising into a viper / rondar thread.


Chill out, the guy brought up the comparison of a J70 to a Viper 640 / VX so worthy of a response. It's not like Rockhead said anything negative about that slow ass piece of water pushing J box trash :lol: . Just kidding its Friday smile!

#697 pwink

pwink

    Newbie

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 5 posts
  • Location:Buffalo, NY
  • Interests:racing

Posted 27 April 2012 - 02:11 PM

Got the sail area here:
http://www.sailmagaz...oat-reviews/j70

This works out to SA/D of 25, which is not much different than the J/22 or J/27 (both with SA/D=24) and less than the J/80 (SA/D=27). It is way different than the VX One (SA/D=39).

Not that anyone (except PHRF) believes that a single number completely describes a boat...

#698 Mambo Kings

Mambo Kings

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,585 posts
  • Location:Marblehead, MA and Greenwich, CT

Posted 27 April 2012 - 02:36 PM


I've seen many referances to the J70 being a scaled down version of the J80. If one were to substitute J80 for J70 in the Clean review would it still be accurate?

I sailed the boat several times this past weekend in Charleston. I am not in the boating industry. I used to sail a J80 called Monster Lady #63 years ago. We had some successes and won some events so I feel I know the 80 as well as anyone. I can tell you the boats are similar in concept, but sail very differently. The 70 is much more fun to helm and will reward a good helmsman more than the 80. It accelerates and responds faster and gives better feedback. Although not a rocket it will get a full plane on a run in 11 or 12 knots. The 80 needs about 5 knots more to the same. My first sail was double handed. The boat was easily sailed by 2 up and down wind with the chute. 3 crew was comfortable. 4 would leave someone with absolutely nothing to do. I came off the boat each time with a smile on my face. It is a very comfortable boat to sail. None of the controls pull very hard, the seating both legs in and out are similar to the 80 which I mean to say is good. It is a boat that can be sailed to high level without a lot of muscle. I feel this is important as there are some great sailors who are not in the best shape due to age or just poor conditioning who would love the chance to compete in sporty boat. The 70 will give them a chance.

I rigged and launched the 70 and the difference between the two boats here is huge. No crane or gin pole needed. Ramp launchable (this is what we did) and no need for a large SUV. A midsized one will do just fine. The keel up and down using a battery powered hand drill worked great.

As for comparisons to the viper and vx (almost the same boat by my eye). It is similar but different. The biggest difference is muscle. Admit it or not, but to compete at the top of these classes you must be great shape. You must be able to hike hard, tack and jibe fast, squat or be on your knees while being nimble and the controls can really load up. This is great. I am glad there are boats that push the crews to limit and reward them for it. The 70 is for those that can't or don't want to work so hard and still be able to compete at the top of the class. The sad truth is to get this some performance must be sacrificed. I think the J70 handles this balancing act rather well. Another plus is that if you have girls on your crew, the small cabin will make a huge differeance. They won't have to dehydrate themselves because there is no place for "relief."

Flame away.



I think it is absolutely right to use SA to compare different boats, even if they are very different.

My background is that I have owned and raced J22s and a J24. There is a good chance that a friend will be getting a J70 and I sure am looking forward to racing on that boat. Bob Johnstone has asked me personally to come sail the J70 and I look forward to it greatly.

For the last few years I have been having an incredibly great time racing the Viper. I love the class, the boat and the people and everyone knows that.

I am 54 years old. I am not in great shape and I work long hours so, sadly, I dont get to the gym. But I was able to come 5th at CRW against some good competition and 3rd in the NAs. The boat is incredibly comfortable to hike on. The huge 32inch curved tanks mean that with legs in the straps it has the most comfortable hiking position in the category. It is probably the thing I like most about the boat. If I had to distinguish between the Viper and the K6 and VX, for me, the Viper is noticeable less athletic for the skipper.

When asked, I describe the Viper as "comfortably athletic". I come back from a day of racing feeling like I have had some good exercise and , yes, I like that feeling. Lets be truthful...I think the J70 will be less athletic hiking than the Viper (and considerbly less athletic than K6 or VX ). The J70 has been well designed to be that way and I suspect they have done a good job.

(As an aside, the "loads" on the lighter Viper will be much less than the J70. The controls dont load up at all. Sheets, halyards etc require less arm muscle on a Viper than M20 or SB3, hence large numbers of women crews, drivers and even a woman class prez)

In short, the Viper does NOT require "muscles" to win, but it is exercise. I enjoy coming home tired after a good days racing. I suspect I will also enjoy a good day on the J70.

I think I will like the J70 but continue to love the Viper. I know there will be people who will love the J70 and like the Viper. As long as we see you all out on the race course, its all good!

#699 narecet

narecet

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,221 posts

Posted 27 April 2012 - 02:53 PM

Got the sail area here:
http://www.sailmagaz...oat-reviews/j70

This works out to SA/D of 25, which is not much different than the J/22 or J/27 (both with SA/D=24) and less than the J/80 (SA/D=27). It is way different than the VX One (SA/D=39).


Way different from the original published claim of 33, as well.

It's odd how schlubs on a sailing board can see that a given claimed weight doesn't make sense, and a given claimed SA/D doesn't make sense (given the claimed and likely application and target market, crew weight, and crew positioning) yet either the manufacturer can't figure it out or for some reason chooses to first put out "hot" data.

http://www.northpoin...70_Sailplan.pdf


Presumably the 226 ft2 (IJPE) will be the production value. It could be that the test boats so far may have had more than that. For example they may have had the 282 ft2 (including fairly small roach and any slight jib overlap) corresponding to the previously claimed SA/D and unrealistically-low weight, as per the above PDF. Whatever the case may be, the numbers, they are a'changin, quite a bit.

If the production boats will have the 226 ft2 (IJPE) sail area then Rod Johnstone's prediction that J/70 speed in PHRF races will be similar to the J/80 may prove about right. Maybe Rod knew what he was talking about. Could it be? I have to say that I haven't noticed hype coming from the Johnstones personally over the years. The company yes, but not the men directly. They seem like fine men and straight shooters who have earned their success.

#700 hermetic

hermetic

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 687 posts

Posted 27 April 2012 - 03:16 PM

It would have gone about like Ford Taurus people pushing into a BMW M3 discussion.


I'm thinking you've never sailed a viper.




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users