957 replies to this topic

[GybeSet®]

am I missing the irony facetious in that /\ /\ ?

won't be close due to the chasm in the righting moments

[EYESAILOR]

I can't believe I would ever say that Clean wrote the only posts worth reading in the last 24 hours. But its true.

The rest of you? ZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz Snore.

[GybeSet®]

in dissing the mythbusters here

does that mean you are agreeing that it was averaging 'up to 6.5knts' in the lesser breeze reported in the upwind leg ?

---------------------------------------------

tell you what i'll bust another one, or at least clear something up .... so the J/92 owners don't feel so slow

the distance sailed, but left unconfirmed in the report was not point to point ( or waypoint to waypoint )

the total was not 8.96 miles ( thats the distance sailed by the tacking boats) it was around 6.6 or less

so the average VMG comes down to 5 knots max, still good for the journey/conditions really

so Furkov your VMG comparo is not so damning provided you are running straighter DW which a longer waterline will allow

[Soley]

The boat still looks cooler than anything else in the J/stable right now,

Maybe but 1983 called and they want their keel back

[Soley]

Can someone tell me why none of the US based OD classes seem to do the sensible thing and have a #1 and #2 jib?

I read so many comments about this boat is over/underpowered in said wind strength, why not bring a boat like the J70 out with two headsail sizes? If you want to keep the racing close make it like match racing where before each boat hits the water someone (fleet captain/ood etc) decides that today the fleet will have to run with jibX.

I know it's a bit more expense up front but you actually save in the long run because you don't flog your #1 jib and main out as much trying to race with them in 25 knots.

Totally agree with you, I am tired of trashing my jib at big air events

[narecet]

the distance sailed, but left unconfirmed in the report was not point to point ( or waypoint to waypoint )

the total was not 8.96 miles ( thats the distance sailed by the tacking boats) it was around 6.6 or less

so the average VMG comes down to 5 knots max, still good for the journey/conditions really

Yes, and that's the thing:

The boat's true performance (whatever exactly that may be) from what we've seen can be nothing in the slightest to be ashamed for. It looks to perform just fine for what it needs to do, though -- unsurprisingly -- it does need legs out to do it in breeze upwind. Okay, doesn't look at all uncomfortable, so let's move on.

Accurate, attainable speed claims ought do do just fine. Rather than ones that simply must be puffed.

However, I'll grant that J Boats knows their market and knows how to sell their boats. Maybe it is like how the thing used to be for automakers to put on speedometers going up to numbers far higher than the car could ever go, and for the family car at that... And like how it used to be with these cars, an outside person tries telling the potential buyer that the car they're enthusiastic about won't really go that speed, and they get all butt-hurt that you are saying that.

But at least the car dealers didn't actually SAY that the car went those speeds!

Maybe you need to tell the buyers in question these puffed things, even though to those who know better it says "clearly can't believe what they say."

[Furkolkjaaf]

so Furkov your VMG comparo is not so damning provided you are running straighter DW which a longer waterline will allow

thanks - feeling better now
and, I'd never trade J70 afterburners for my beloved diesel

[Beckett]

The boat still looks cooler than anything else in the J/stable right now,

Maybe but 1983 called and they want their keel back

Funny

[Snapper95]

This site should be renamed Sailing Pedantry...
There is a difference between being interested in design and how it affects performance, vs parsing every word that comes out of a marketing department's campaign.

[Timbo]

Make a proposal Soley...

Can someone tell me why none of the US based OD classes seem to do the sensible thing and have a #1 and #2 jib?

I read so many comments about this boat is over/underpowered in said wind strength, why not bring a boat like the J70 out with two headsail sizes? If you want to keep the racing close make it like match racing where before each boat hits the water someone (fleet captain/ood etc) decides that today the fleet will have to run with jibX.

I know it's a bit more expense up front but you actually save in the long run because you don't flog your #1 jib and main out as much trying to race with them in 25 knots.

Totally agree with you, I am tired of trashing my jib at big air events

[MR.CLEAN]

This site should be renamed Sailing Pedantry...
There is a difference between being interested in design and how it affects performance, vs parsing every word that comes out of a marketing department's campaign.

Thank you, Mr. Moderator. Perhaps you'd prefer someplace quieter.

[craigiri]

I can't believe I would ever say that Clean wrote the only posts worth reading in the last 24 hours. But its true.

The rest of you? ZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz Snore.

Well, let me try one for the minority - it's the J forum, not the sport boat, right?

So, the boat is being marketed also as a family cruiser - a day sailor for a nice ride.

Is there anything much to this? That is, would it suit a single hander bringing perhaps a friend of two along for a sail, or is it overkill for that? Would you really need crew to run it correctly if you don't care about 1/10 of a knot or seconds per mile, etc.?

Or does the racing heritage or design components make it a little less of a family or leisure boat?

What do you think - will almost all of these be sold as OD racers and fleets?

[narecet]

The Melges can be a nice family boat if desired to use that way (mainsail-only is always an option!), and its design is considerably closer to the edge of the envelope. I can't imagine the J/70 will be in any way unworkable or too hard to manage as you describe. I really doubt they blew it there.

[PurpleOnion]

The boat still looks cooler than anything else in the J/stable right now,

Maybe but 1983 called and they want their keel back

Funny

Did it have wings?

[Snapper95]

Thank you, Mr. Moderator. Perhaps you'd prefer someplace quieter.

That's the spirit! Now Bite me.

[Snapper95]

1333733498[/url]' post='3661133']
Well, let me try one for the minority - it's the J forum, not the sport boat, right?

So, the boat is being marketed also as a family cruiser - a day sailor for a nice ride.

Is there anything much to this? That is, would it suit a single hander bringing perhaps a friend of two along for a sail, or is it overkill for that? Would you really need crew to run it correctly if you don't care about 1/10 of a knot or seconds per mile, etc.?

Or does the racing heritage or design components make it a little less of a family or leisure boat?

What do you think - will almost all of these be sold as OD racers and fleets?

It looks like it will be very easy to single hand. Large cockpit and reachable layout ought to be friend and family friendly. One of my criterion for any boat really, and until fleets are established, we're all going to be day sailing the critter.
Whatever I decide, my next boat is going to be a modest downsize for me and must have a retractable keel. Looking forward to maintenance in my driveway without going up and down a ladder. Smaller blocks, lines, etc. all part of the appeal.
One question I have is the carbon fiber rig - any long term issues with leaving that exposed to the sun?

[Timbo]

Not if it's painted white of light grey... clear coats need to be re-done every couple of years.

1333733498[/url]' post='3661133']
Well, let me try one for the minority - it's the J forum, not the sport boat, right?

So, the boat is being marketed also as a family cruiser - a day sailor for a nice ride.

Is there anything much to this? That is, would it suit a single hander bringing perhaps a friend of two along for a sail, or is it overkill for that? Would you really need crew to run it correctly if you don't care about 1/10 of a knot or seconds per mile, etc.?

Or does the racing heritage or design components make it a little less of a family or leisure boat?

What do you think - will almost all of these be sold as OD racers and fleets?

It looks like it will be very easy to single hand. Large cockpit and reachable layout ought to be friend and family friendly. One of my criterion for any boat really, and until fleets are established, we're all going to be day sailing the critter.
Whatever I decide, my next boat is going to be a modest downsize for me and must have a retractable keel. Looking forward to maintenance in my driveway without going up and down a ladder. Smaller blocks, lines, etc. all part of the appeal.
One question I have is the carbon fiber rig - any long term issues with leaving that exposed to the sun?

[DB Cooper]

So, the boat is being marketed also as a family cruiser - a day sailor for a nice ride.

This is not possible....

[USA190520]

So, the boat is being marketed also as a family cruiser - a day sailor for a nice ride.

This is not possible....

Yes it is.... Slap a cup holder on it and voila... Cruisin'

[Snapper95]

It's got a nice place to mount one of those rail mounted barbeque thingies too...

[USA190520]

oh wow, i never saw that, good eye.

Wait...you can grill using the afterburners!!!

fuckin-a, what will they come up with next?

[Left Hook]

I dropped in on the two 70's sitting at the marina in Bristol today. Cockpit is indeed GIGANTIC and the hardware is very well laid out. Legs out hiking is going to be super comfy as long as the class can discourage people from having to bend themselves over the lifelines. The furler is a nice looking, clean bit of kit and the whole thing just struck me as well put together. While some people argue that a true sportie doesn't have a backstay I'm of the opinion that the ability it gives you to change gears makes it worthwhile - and the layout/implementation is well done on the 70 with a small crane (and possibly flicker?) and a block and tackle system led to the helmsman on either side.

I noticed that on the day NS tested their sails a flicker was present. Any verdict as to whether or not that's going to be implemented in the final boat?

WRT the keel... I must say that I agree with the anvil shape. Upwind the amount of lift it generates compared to a t bulb on a narrow strut seems very valuable. Not to mention how much easier it would be to keep in the groove for a novice helmsman, a group which will undoubtedly comprise at least some of the target market, especially in lighter air.

At some point I'm going to be in the market for a first boat of my own. This strikes me as something that someone could campaign for not too much money while still going fast and spending minimal time dealing with boat prep, moving it, etc. Keep it covered and on a trailer in your backyard in the winter and race the shit out of it with your friends in the summer.

[Firefly-DC]

Does anyone know it the J70 will have a single point lift for a crane or will rolling off the trailer be the only launch option?

[gvbyus]

Does anyone know it the J70 will have a single point lift for a crane or will rolling off the trailer be the only launch option?

It has a slick single point lift as well as the trailer launch option. Ill be going up for the dealer demo(I already sailed the boat a few weeks ago so I have seen the single point in person) on behalf of North Point Yacht Sales on Wednesday so if anyone has anyquestions PM me or better yet post them on here.

[Snapper95]

It has a slick single point lift as well as the trailer launch option. Ill be going up for the dealer demo(I already sailed the boat a few weeks ago so I have seen the single point in person) on behalf of North Point Yacht Sales on Wednesday so if anyone has anyquestions PM me or better yet post them on here.

Thanks for both the information and the offer.

I'd like to know the basics on how the control lines are set up for the sprit, halyards, tack line, etc. I'd guess it is laid out like a J80, but they said you never have to leave the cockpit. Hard to tell where the halyards are, and if they go to turning blocks to let you hoist from near the companionway.

I assume you launch the kite from the companionway around and aft of the shrouds? How does the spin launch go with a crew of three?

Also would be interested in the specifics of the trailer, launching, how much the mast weighs, what attaches the forestay to the deck, can you leave the jib on the foil or does it have to come off for transport, how hard it is to rig and set up, how long it might take to go from trailer to ready to sail. What the total weight of boat and trailer is (and what the displacement of the boat actually will be).

Thanks again.

[EYESAILOR]

Ill be going up for the dealer demo(I already sailed the boat a few weeks ago so I have seen the single point in person) on behalf of North Point Yacht Sales on Wednesday so if anyone has anyquestions PM me or better yet post them on here.

Could you post a picture of the "afterburners" ?

[gvbyus]

It has a slick single point lift as well as the trailer launch option. Ill be going up for the dealer demo(I already sailed the boat a few weeks ago so I have seen the single point in person) on behalf of North Point Yacht Sales on Wednesday so if anyone has anyquestions PM me or better yet post them on here.

Thanks for both the information and the offer.

I'd like to know the basics on how the control lines are set up for the sprit, halyards, tack line, etc. I'd guess it is laid out like a J80, but they said you never have to leave the cockpit. Hard to tell where the halyards are, and if they go to turning blocks to let you hoist from near the companionway.

I assume you launch the kite from the companionway around and aft of the shrouds? How does the spin launch go with a crew of three?

Also would be interested in the specifics of the trailer, launching, how much the mast weighs, what attaches the forestay to the deck, can you leave the jib on the foil or does it have to come off for transport, how hard it is to rig and set up, how long it might take to go from trailer to ready to sail. What the total weight of boat and trailer is (and what the displacement of the boat actually will be).

Thanks again.

Snapper,


I will try and get back with answers and pictures later this week.

[gvbyus]

Ill be going up for the dealer demo(I already sailed the boat a few weeks ago so I have seen the single point in person) on behalf of North Point Yacht Sales on Wednesday so if anyone has anyquestions PM me or better yet post them on here.

Could you post a picture of the "afterburners" ?

EYESAILOR,


I will try but they may be too hot for my camera

[Snapper95]

Snapper,


I will try and get back with answers and pictures later this week.

Many thanks. Any details or perceptions from your perspective would be appreciated.

[Snapper95]

Could you post a picture of the "afterburners" ?

Should make getting to the line when you are late a little easier...

[junta]

It has a slick single point lift as well as the trailer launch option. Ill be going up for the dealer demo(I already sailed the boat a few weeks ago so I have seen the single point in person) on behalf of North Point Yacht Sales on Wednesday so if anyone has anyquestions PM me or better yet post them on here.

Thanks for both the information and the offer.

I'd like to know the basics on how the control lines are set up for the sprit, halyards, tack line, etc. I'd guess it is laid out like a J80, but they said you never have to leave the cockpit. Hard to tell where the halyards are, and if they go to turning blocks to let you hoist from near the companionway.

I assume you launch the kite from the companionway around and aft of the shrouds? How does the spin launch go with a crew of three?

Also would be interested in the specifics of the trailer, launching, how much the mast weighs, what attaches the forestay to the deck, can you leave the jib on the foil or does it have to come off for transport, how hard it is to rig and set up, how long it might take to go from trailer to ready to sail. What the total weight of boat and trailer is (and what the displacement of the boat actually will be).

Thanks again.

I am assuming it will be very similar to the U20 with halyard, sprit, and tack on one side, or halyard just forward of the companionway. easy to launch and retrieve by 2 people.

[Varan]

Does anyone know it the J70 will have a single point lift for a crane or will rolling off the trailer be the only launch option?

It has a slick single point lift as well as the trailer launch option. Ill be going up for the dealer demo(I already sailed the boat a few weeks ago so I have seen the single point in person) on behalf of North Point Yacht Sales on Wednesday so if anyone has anyquestions PM me or better yet post them on here.

Thank you. Two questions.
1: What does it weigh? (bulb vs hull)
2: Has J come up with a novel way to protect the tailing edge of the keel when it is being lifted or lowered?

Regards,
~ Varan

[MR.CLEAN]

he's right , when racing there won't be leeward drops

Are you not familiar with leeward gates, Dave? Ya know: Stretch and blow, right turn, right gate....pretty common to have leeward drops in the M24 class for instance, but then again that is one design...

[GybeSet®]

s'95

racing no way you will launch aft of the shrouds

not unless you retrieved it that (wrong) way

seen the pics upwind in a breeze why are ppl still saying a crew of three

S.W. Reed
"And when I found that groove somewhere between high and pinchy and bow-down fast ... . With the three others sitting casually, legs out, I let the tiller extension float above my open hand, and the helm .... "
"With three bodies hiking under the single, low lifeline, "


Set
"During our ... and through the companionway as well. We used the latter technique and the mechanics were straightforward: the forward person launches the retractable pole and feeds the kite out of the companionway. The trimmer gets the tack to the pole and then goes to the halyard."

Douse
"The companionway douse was straightforward as well, and this is where crew selection would benefit having a smaller, more nimble person who is able to get low and forward near the shrouds for leeward drop. The clew is high and the foot fairly short, so shrimping incidences shouldn't be common. We did not attempt a Mexican, but I'm sure it would be the better move anyway."

he's right , when racing there won't be leeward drops


Weight
" but our sense was that somewhere in the vicinity of 600 to 620 pounds would be the likely range. Three-up would keep everyone entertained and make getting on and off the rail more fluid, but if I had it my way, I’d want three athletic 170-pounders and one petite or youth crew in the forward position."

_____________________________________________

whats the bulb weigh, whats the boat weigh

it's also high time the class rules re. crew restrictions & any weight restrictions are released

In AUS to race a trailable Elliott 7 effectively ( moderate not-extreme design, 550lb bulb) you would need 770 lbs (350k) of bodies, but don't think this is the upper limit, its closer to the lower

however they have been known to stack to 880 lbs (400k) and in one case 952 lbs (430kg) //// #2 link #3 link
"H sailed at 450 odd kg, winner at about 350 " (i.e 770lbs)

bear in mind its full road legal width 8' 2" on the Bmax levering that lower weight 770lbs , the j70 is not

[GybeSet®]

he's right , when racing there won't be leeward drops

Are you not familiar with leeward gates, Dave? Ya know: Stretch and blow, right turn, right gate....pretty common to have leeward drops in the M24 class for instance, but then again that is one design...

you're right i was talking single mark

with two marks x coming in on either gybe .... 4 drop scenarios

one of the 4 is a plain vanilla leeward drop, other 3 mex &/or windward drops

[GRUMPY]

If Clean can out think you at the gate Davey you're in a world of hurt.

It's no wonder you don't have you're own boat. A tactical wizz like you should be able to hold a regular ride at least.

Wassup?

[Soley]

WRT the keel... I must say that I agree with the anvil shape. Upwind the amount of lift it generates compared to a t bulb on a narrow strut seems very valuable. Not to mention how much easier it would be to keep in the groove for a novice helmsman, a group which will undoubtedly comprise at least some of the target market, especially in lighter air.

I don't agree;
Uniform lift is key to good performance upwind. That keel will just make a mess of laminar flow.
You lose the valuable end plate effect that a t-bulb generates.
The keel also has to weigh more to have the same righting moment. Not good for a "legs in" boat.

At some point I'm going to be in the market for a first boat of my own. This strikes me as something that someone could campaign for not too much money while still going fast and spending minimal time dealing with boat prep, moving it, etc. Keep it covered and on a trailer in your backyard in the winter and race the shit out of it with your friends in the summer.

What the hell is a kid in his twenties (or maybe thirties by the time you can afford one) doing with an old man boat like this??

[Left Hook]

WRT the keel... I must say that I agree with the anvil shape. Upwind the amount of lift it generates compared to a t bulb on a narrow strut seems very valuable. Not to mention how much easier it would be to keep in the groove for a novice helmsman, a group which will undoubtedly comprise at least some of the target market, especially in lighter air.

I don't agree;
Uniform lift is key to good performance upwind. That keel will just make a mess of laminar flow.
You lose the valuable end plate effect that a t-bulb generates.
The keel also has to weigh more to have the same righting moment. Not good for a "legs in" boat - Agreed, I see it becoming a legs out boat anyways.Also doesn't the increased chord length allow for a wider groove upwind with less propensity to stall?

At some point I'm going to be in the market for a first boat of my own. This strikes me as something that someone could campaign for not too much money while still going fast and spending minimal time dealing with boat prep, moving it, etc. Keep it covered and on a trailer in your backyard in the winter and race the shit out of it with your friends in the summer.

What the hell is a kid in his twenties (or maybe thirties by the time you can afford one) doing with an old man boat like this??

Hate hiking off hiking straps.

[Lee G]

WRT the keel... I must say that I agree with the anvil shape. Upwind the amount of lift it generates compared to a t bulb on a narrow strut seems very valuable. Not to mention how much easier it would be to keep in the groove for a novice helmsman, a group which will undoubtedly comprise at least some of the target market, especially in lighter air.

I don't agree;
Uniform lift is key to good performance upwind. That keel will just make a mess of laminar flow.
You lose the valuable end plate effect that a t-bulb generates.
The keel also has to weigh more to have the same righting moment. Not good for a "legs in" boat - Agreed, I see it becoming a legs out boat anyways.Also doesn't the increased chord length allow for a wider groove upwind with less propensity to stall?

At some point I'm going to be in the market for a first boat of my own. This strikes me as something that someone could campaign for not too much money while still going fast and spending minimal time dealing with boat prep, moving it, etc. Keep it covered and on a trailer in your backyard in the winter and race the shit out of it with your friends in the summer.

What the hell is a kid in his twenties (or maybe thirties by the time you can afford one) doing with an old man boat like this??

Hate hiking off hiking straps.

Why would be hiking on your own boat, espically in a class that will likely be owner/driver

['moondance44]

WRT the keel... I must say that I agree with the anvil shape. Upwind the amount of lift it generates compared to a t bulb on a narrow strut seems very valuable. Not to mention how much easier it would be to keep in the groove for a novice helmsman, a group which will undoubtedly comprise at least some of the target market, especially in lighter air.

I don't agree;
Uniform lift is key to good performance upwind. That keel will just make a mess of laminar flow.
You lose the valuable end plate effect that a t-bulb generates.
The keel also has to weigh more to have the same righting moment. Not good for a "legs in" boat - Agreed, I see it becoming a legs out boat anyways.Also doesn't the increased chord length allow for a wider groove upwind with less propensity to stall?

At some point I'm going to be in the market for a first boat of my own. This strikes me as something that someone could campaign for not too much money while still going fast and spending minimal time dealing with boat prep, moving it, etc. Keep it covered and on a trailer in your backyard in the winter and race the shit out of it with your friends in the summer.

What the hell is a kid in his twenties (or maybe thirties by the time you can afford one) doing with an old man boat like this??

Hate hiking off hiking straps.

Why would be hiking on your own boat, espically in a class that will likely be owner/driver

who;s going to buy drinks for the crew ?

[EYESAILOR]

WRT the keel... I must say that I agree with the anvil shape. Upwind the amount of lift it generates compared to a t bulb on a narrow strut seems very valuable. Not to mention how much easier it would be to keep in the groove for a novice helmsman, a group which will undoubtedly comprise at least some of the target market, especially in lighter air.

I don't agree;
Uniform lift is key to good performance upwind. That keel will just make a mess of laminar flow.
You lose the valuable end plate effect that a t-bulb generates.
The keel also has to weigh more to have the same righting moment. Not good for a "legs in" boat - Agreed, I see it becoming a legs out boat anyways.Also doesn't the increased chord length allow for a wider groove upwind with less propensity to stall?

At some point I'm going to be in the market for a first boat of my own. This strikes me as something that someone could campaign for not too much money while still going fast and spending minimal time dealing with boat prep, moving it, etc. Keep it covered and on a trailer in your backyard in the winter and race the shit out of it with your friends in the summer.

What the hell is a kid in his twenties (or maybe thirties by the time you can afford one) doing with an old man boat like this??

Hate hiking off hiking straps.

I sailed with a crew like you once.

Hated Hiking.
No feel for using weight to steer the boat.
No interest in the thrill of water, foils and sails.
Sat on the rail like it was a bar stool.

I think the only reason he preferred sail boats over power boats was that if you get invited out on someone's power boat you are expected to bring the beer but on a sail boat the skipper brings the beer. I s'pose its a good a reason as any. But I really hope the J70 doesnt get populated by all the lard asses who dont like hiking. It will be a very dull class.

[crash]

WRT the keel... I must say that I agree with the anvil shape. Upwind the amount of lift it generates compared to a t bulb on a narrow strut seems very valuable. Not to mention how much easier it would be to keep in the groove for a novice helmsman, a group which will undoubtedly comprise at least some of the target market, especially in lighter air.

I don't agree;
Uniform lift is key to good performance upwind. That keel will just make a mess of laminar flow.
You lose the valuable end plate effect that a t-bulb generates.
The keel also has to weigh more to have the same righting moment. Not good for a "legs in" boat - Agreed, I see it becoming a legs out boat anyways.Also doesn't the increased chord length allow for a wider groove upwind with less propensity to stall?

At some point I'm going to be in the market for a first boat of my own. This strikes me as something that someone could campaign for not too much money while still going fast and spending minimal time dealing with boat prep, moving it, etc. Keep it covered and on a trailer in your backyard in the winter and race the shit out of it with your friends in the summer.

What the hell is a kid in his twenties (or maybe thirties by the time you can afford one) doing with an old man boat like this??

Hate hiking off hiking straps.

I sailed with a crew like you once.

Hated Hiking.
No feel for using weight to steer the boat.
No interest in the thrill of water, foils and sails.
Sat on the rail like it was a bar stool.

I think the only reason he preferred sail boats over power boats was that if you get invited out on someone's power boat you are expected to bring the beer but on a sail boat the skipper brings the beer. I s'pose its a good a reason as any. But I really hope the J70 doesnt get populated by all the lard asses who dont like hiking. It will be a very dull class.

I think it depends on how you define "hiking." HIking with your feet under straps off the side of a dinghy? Hiking of a trapeze on a high performance dinghy or cat? Hanging by your abs off the side of an "offshore" keelboat. I'm all for the former 2, but have no desire to subject my crew to the latter one. So I guess it depends. It'd be nice (from my perspective) to have a sport boat class that doesn't allow "hanging" as there are already plenty that do. But that's just me. Not sure why sitting vertically upright on the side with your legs over the side is not "hiking", but I realize its all in how we each define the term....

[Left Hook]

Hate hiking off hiking straps.

I sailed with a crew like you once.

Hated Hiking.
No feel for using weight to steer the boat.
No interest in the thrill of water, foils and sails.
Sat on the rail like it was a bar stool.

I think the only reason he preferred sail boats over power boats was that if you get invited out on someone's power boat you are expected to bring the beer but on a sail boat the skipper brings the beer. I s'pose its a good a reason as any. But I really hope the J70 doesnt get populated by all the lard asses who dont like hiking. It will be a very dull class.

Excuse me but what?

I said I hated hiking off of hiking straps... because I just don't find it pleasant and it's not fun for me - It's why I detested racing dinghies (and why the V640/VX One aren't my first choices for a boat). Same thing for the awful, nerve pinching, style of hanging done in the M24 class. No that there's anything wrong with those boats or that it doesn't make me a big pussy but it just isn't my cup of tea. How does that translate into any of the the points you made? Have you met me? Have you sailed with me? Because when I'm at a buoy regatta as a one member of a team all trying win I'm the exact opposite of what you're suggesting.

And Lee; if I were to buy a boat I'd share the fun of driving with my crew in non-OD/beercan races.

[mrpelicano]

WRT "hiking", I've spent plenty of hours draped over the lifelines on M24's and keelboats of various sizes, hanging on the trapeze on 505's, and tucked under the hiking straps of numerous dinghies, so I've got nothing against "hiking" per se. However, my wife would really like to get on the water and go racing, but a back problem precludes the forms of hiking listed above, but does allow her to sit legs-out or legs-in on the rail. That would be a major appeal to her of a boat like the J/70 or the M20, and would make for a happier home life.

On the other hand, I'm also favorably inclined towards canting keels, so maybe I can talk her into Mini 6.5 proto.

[U20guy2]

MrPelicano if the 6.5 Proto is of any real interest save your money and look at them or other boats with a higher performance range than the J70. Given all you would be is board and a bit disappointed that you bought the station wagon instead of the GT sedan version. LOL

Plenty of the new sport boats even the older one's sail very well and competitive with two and legs in. If your thinking nationals with full crew of course you need to hike and do a fair number of things to up your competitive level but pretty much all the sporties sail quite well with feet in. Shoot the wife and I did fantastic for many years double handed feet in relaxed racing on the U20. Heck several single handed guys do fantastic feet in on the U20. So this whole debate is a bit funny as we all know you can make this feet in vs hard hike out thing as painful as you like but it comes down the the class and those sailing in it to enforce and crack down on cheating to keep things logical and comfortable.

[USA190520]

Is there a U20 thread somewhere?

No?

[U20guy2]

Is there a U20 thread somewhere?

No?

Hey USA I've sailed Vipers very chill and legs in no hard hiking in some great conditions with just a couple of people on board the boat smokes along and is a joy to sail. You just work harder when the wind is up like SF 25 when you need your fee strapped down on the hiking straps. As I said all the new sport boats are quick compared to the heavy shit of years past and a wed night husband wife beer can is easily done on all of these boats with feet in and your still going to be sailing faster than the J24 with ragged out sails in the same Beer can race.

[USA190520]

So that'd be a negative on the U20 thread huh?

[blisster]

Lookin' great @ 4:56

[knuckles]

Lookin' great @ 4:56

There's some reaching going on in that video, but the portion from 4:56 on looks like fun.

[Jagtek Performance Products]

Lookin' great @ 4:56

There's some reaching going on in that video, but the portion from 4:56 on looks like fun.

That looks like a lot of fun. Sure looks easy too. Those guys were pretty relaxed. Decent breeze too.

[MR.CLEAN]

I sailed the J/70 on Saturday right after I sailed the VX-One. Part one is done and should be up on the FP soon, and Part two (the J/70) will be up tonight.

[Varan]

I sailed the J/70 on Saturday right after I sailed the VX-One. Part one is done and should be up on the FP soon, and Part two (the J/70) will be up tonight.

soon, as in tomorrow?

[knuckles]

I sailed the J/70 on Saturday right after I sailed the VX-One. Part one is done and should be up on the FP soon, and Part two (the J/70) will be up tonight.

soon, as in tomorrow?

How about....tomorrow?

[MR.CLEAN]

I sailed the J/70 on Saturday right after I sailed the VX-One. Part one is done and should be up on the FP soon, and Part two (the J/70) will be up tonight.

soon, as in tomorrow?

How about....tomorrow?

Ed put it up last night, which means J/70 review comes on tonight.

[Dewey Devil]

May have been mentioned before, but Annapolis will be Fleet #1...Seattle and Lake Norman fleets also formed.

[Damp Freddie]

Thanks for putting the vid up Blister / Clean ?.


Looks like a cross between a lot of different sports boats/yachts ie bit j80, bit platu in the hull, bit melges, bit SB3.

I like the size actually.

15.7 in what looks like 16-18 knts breeze with gusts of about 21 makes it a pretty good converting machine with the stability to hold the speed.

What is the EU retail with racing sails gonna be?

[nroose]

Lookin' great @ 4:56

Is he deploying a drogue at about 3:45???

[hermetic]

You're not questioning Stu's crewing ability are you?

(spin halyard)

[Monster Mash]

Lookin' great @ 4:56

Is he deploying a drogue at about 3:45???

Not sure if thats a tounge in cheeck question or not but I do it all the time on my 22' er. Halyard goes overboard before the drop to keep it from being stepped on.. Halyard is of course water proof and floats. learned it from a Melges24 guy.

[Snapper95]

Gets the hackles out of the line and avoids butt-cleats too...
That HD video is amazing, thanks for posting.
Sailing upwind, is that the spin halyard I see tied to the stanchion with a slip knot to keep it from falling about?
The halyards look skinny in those videos.

[Left Hook]

Lookin' great @ 4:56

Is he deploying a drogue at about 3:45???

Not sure if thats a tounge in cheeck question or not but I do it all the time on my 22' er. Halyard goes overboard before the drop to keep it from being stepped on.. Halyard is of course water proof and floats. learned it from a Melges24 guy.

SOP in the Atlantic class as well. Toss the halyard overboard and it will always run free and clean

[nroose]

Sorry. I was just trying to make a joke. I guess I should try it sometime.

[Damp Freddie]

Sorry. I was just trying to make a joke. I guess I should try it sometime.

Great way of foiling Somali Pirates too.

Not a bad brake pad, I wonder at 17 knts if the kite will actually want to come down with this technique ;-)

[jonathann99]

Anyone know how many have been sold so far?

[MR.CLEAN]

sorry for delays on my review. It is coming, that I promise!

[Varan]

sorry for delays on my review. It is coming, that I promise!

Almost fell for it... I knew there really wasn't a FP. How about posting it here?

[J24_guy]

I don't know, I am visiting CRW (not sailing in it this time) and the J70 hull has pretty nice lines, but my first thought about the sailplan was, you have to be kidding me. It looks horribly underpowered. I know it will have its place as the "old man's/safe/family-friendly" sportsboat, but that dumpy little rig on top of a sleek hull has me wondering. OTOH, it's a nice size and looks to be the offspring of a J24/J80 marriage. Undoubtedly things are pretty well sorted on it. But that sailplan looks almosts like a joke.

[Varan]

I don't know, I am visiting CRW (not sailing in it this time) and the J70 hull has pretty nice lines, but my first thought about the sailplan was, you have to be kidding me. It looks horribly underpowered. I know it will have its place as the "old man's/safe/family-friendly" sportsboat, but that dumpy little rig on top of a sleek hull has me wondering. OTOH, it's a nice size and looks to be the offspring of a J24/J80 marriage. Undoubtedly things are pretty well sorted on it. But that sailplan looks almosts like a joke.

fail to see any resemblance to a j24, except for maybe the trailer. More like some cross breeding between the 90 and 22 IMHO.

[8:07 to New Haven]

I don't know, I am visiting CRW (not sailing in it this time) and the J70 hull has pretty nice lines, but my first thought about the sailplan was, you have to be kidding me. It looks horribly underpowered. I know it will have its place as the "old man's/safe/family-friendly" sportsboat, but that dumpy little rig on top of a sleek hull has me wondering. OTOH, it's a nice size and looks to be the offspring of a J24/J80 marriage. Undoubtedly things are pretty well sorted on it. But that sailplan looks almosts like a joke.

The boom could be 1.5' longer

[bottlerocket]

"It looks horribly underpowered. "

I guess what matters is how does it do upwind in 22 knots and in 5 knots. I seems to be moving along fine upwind in the videos.

[Chinook]

Went for a demo sail on Saturday on hull number 1 in 8-10 knots. A really nice sail with a fun boat. It checks off enough boxes for me to be interested: easy to sail, fun, small cabin for kids to escape to, relatively quick, low crew requirements, easily trailerable, no wood, no complex systems, one design possibilities.

Anyone else from WLIS thinking about getting one? This is probably the biggest factor that is stopping me from pulling out the checkbook. Don't want to spend several years sailing PHRF hoping for a fleet and WLIS is not generally favorable to small keelboat fleets. The Melges 24 fleet was here and gone quickly, the J80s seem to have revived a little bit, and there are a couple of local only J24 fleets. Does the J/70 have a chance?

Drop me a line if you are in WLIS and are thinking about a J/70.

Chinook

[MisterMoon]

sorry for delays on my review. It is coming, that I promise!

<crickets>

[AquaStig]

Drop me a line if you are in WLIS and are thinking about a J/70.

Chinook

I'm in WLIS and feeling the same way about the 70. Am worried that the Viper in Stamford, IHYC and Larchmont and the K6 at American have a solid first-mover-advantage.... it would be much easier to jump on the momentum of an existing fleet with dynamic leadership. Also, looking at the AYC Spring Series registrations it looks a bit anemic, at least compared to what I remember in the mid 00's and I wonder--no matter the boat--is anybody coming out to play given the economics and crew issues (though i think the 70 is a powerful response to both of those factors). I think there are a lot of people around looking for something more like a keelboat and this would hit the sweetspot, but getting them to commit and then get out on the race course has always been way more of a challenge than one one imagine. Please keep in touch with regard to the fleet development, if I saw a strong interesting in WLIS and one design starts that would move the needle for me. Regards

[GybeSet®]

Am worried that the Viper in Stamford, IHYC and Larchmont .... have a solid first-mover-advantage.... it would be much easier to jump on the momentum of an existing fleet with dynamic leadership.

no need to worry, just take the easy option

you forgot most numerous sportsboat class at CRW, Js and Ms were there but not as many as the Viper

it's good to be worried about competition, see \/ \/

" 6. Viper teams that included one AC sailor, 2 Olympians, the 5-0-5 NA champion, Soling NA Champion, Sonar NA champion, a top ranked Melges 32 skipper,Lightening NA champion, Last years Viper NA champion and Pan Am Champions, Australia's youth match racing champion, Interclub NA champion, 4 college All-Americans, Rhodes 19 NA champion, Snipe NA champion, 8x Shields NA champion, Ultimate 20 NA champion, two Rondar "works" boats, and a deep talent bench of amateur sailors. "


is that too hot for you ? if so a Jboat will suit you fine

[SailAR]

for WLIS I would wait to see if Noroton moves in some direction. Without them, I don't think you have a chance of a sustainable new one design fleet west of Middle Ground. Larchmont has fully embraced the Viper so for sportsboats, you're going to be hard pressed to start a third fleet. IMHO.

[port tack]

Sailed my Vuper this past weekend in Charleston. They had the J70 cruising around our trying to show off a little. For a sportboat the Main looks small, boom is very short (in regard to cockpit). They were trying hard to get it to plane, sailing really hot boat never jumped up just pushed more water and finally broached, the boached again. This boat is going after the M20 crowd who don't what to hire professionals to sail with them, in my opinion, not the Viper, VX, or K6 crowd. I think for its market its a nice little package, but understand it is much much more of a keelboat than any of the other 20 ft sporties. Just my .02 cents.

[Dewey Devil]

What, no review yet? Smells of conspiracy, I tell you...

[PurpleOnion]

What, no review yet? Smells of conspiracy, I tell you...

The last thread about that lack of a report that I commented on magically disappeared.
I was hoping to read a "fair and balanced" review of the boat, but that doesn't seem likely anymore.
It would be interesting to understand the reasons for the delay, but that's probably not something we'll be privy to. We are just the readers, not the sponsors.

[narecet]

A funny thing may be that quite likely 95-99% of us would have thought the review as written was positive and would have enhanced our image of the boat, regardless of probably not being written in J-speak (jets, afterburners, smokin' hot, firm buttocks, etc.)

Of course, it's also possible that delay could be for an unrelated reason.

[PurpleOnion]

A funny thing may be that quite likely 95-99% of us would have thought the review as written was positive and would have enhanced our image of the boat, regardless of probably not being written in J-speak (jets, afterburners, smokin' hot, firm buttocks, etc.)

Of course, it's also possible that delay could be for an unrelated reason.

As with most "scandals", it's the lack of information that fuels the ridiculous speculation. Being a anarchic bunch, the clues left here only fuel speculation:
- statement that the test ride was taken right after enjoying the VX
- posted review of the VX with a statement that J/70 review will follow
- statement that the J/70 review was in the queue and would show up the next day
- statement that the review was coming soon "that I promise"
- mysterious deletion of a thread asking where the review was

to paraphrase my late father-in-law: I raised my kids (this website community) to be rebellious, I just don't like when they rebel against me.

[PurpleOnion]

What, no review yet? Smells of conspiracy, I tell you...

The review is posted and it's well done.

On to another ridiculous conspiracy.

[narecet]

Agreed, excellent review. Finally, at least to my take, straight and informative information.

As a side note, though the part about my being in agreement with the Ass from Australia is itself somewhat disturbing, now that we have the actual weight those that were criticizing my and his estimating separately that the boat would need to be about 1800 lb can now wonder how much basis they had for objecting. It's not rocket science folks.

[Snapper95]

Obviously, the review took some time to post because of the effort required to produce such a weel-written missive. Well done and a spot-on as to the role and placement of the boat. Hopefully some of the purests will begin to understand marketing and how it is important to the sailboat business .

[MisterMoon]

From what I can tell, the biggest critics of this boat are complaining it's not extreme enough. I thought the car analogy was apt. However, I don't want a shifter cart. I'd rather have the hot hatch. I like hot hatches. More importantly, Momma would approve the purchase of a hot hatch because it's practical as a daily driver. A shifter cart (or an Ariel Atom!) can only be used on track days. I think one of the reasons J/boats is so successful is they understand that in order to sell boats that they need to overcome spousal objections to what is essentially a toy.

If I were in the market for a new boat right now, I'd sign up for the J/70.

[Dewey Devil]

What, no review yet? Smells of conspiracy, I tell you...

The review is posted and it's well done.

On to another ridiculous conspiracy.

I was just giving you guys crap...peace

[hermetic]

What I got out of the low tech review: The carbon spars are pretty.

Again, it's too bad that the sailmakers that sailed the things in RI are unable to post here.

[PurpleOnion]

What, no review yet? Smells of conspiracy, I tell you...

The review is posted and it's well done.

On to another ridiculous conspiracy.

I was just giving you guys crap...peace

So was I. No offense was intended. Only self-mockery.

[ctutmark]

What I got out of the low tech review: The carbon spars are pretty.

Again, it's too bad that the sailmakers that sailed the things in RI are unable to post here.

You mean like in post #384?

[narecet]

Post #384 was not by any sailmaker but rather by a J Boat dealer.

It's not surprising that the sailmakers would choose not to post. It would not be professional to do so unless specifically asked by the client, really.

[Snapper95]

From what I can tell, the biggest critics of this boat are complaining it's not extreme enough...

And as you described, the boat isn't meant to be extreme. The boom height speaks volumes on who and what the boat is targeted towards. It addresses a large segment of the market, and selling boats is what the company is all about (one has to wonder sometimes when you see a J/Boat design offered at every half meter).

The J70 certainly isn't targeted towards people who's identity is defined by sailing a "bad-assed" design or the snobby yacht-club elitist who won't talk to the former lot of scruffy heathens. It's somewhere in the middle.

BTW, if you want to see snobbery, sign up for a track day in your beloved sports car. The more expensive the car, the less talent in the driver. Generally speaking, people tend to buy their way into a place on the almighty pecking order. With some notable exceptions, you'll NEVER see them in an actual door to door race.

[Snapper95]

Post #384 was not by any sailmaker but rather by a J Boat dealer.

It's not surprising that the sailmakers would choose not to post. It would not be professional to do so unless specifically asked by the client, really.

It would be counterproductive to proffer ANY criticism of a boat that you are trying to become a one design provider for (I know, Captain Obvious here). So I'm not sure why the poster values the opinion of a sailmaker.

So Naracet, what do you sail now, and how many J70's are you going to buy now that you know the displacement?

[narecet]

Right now I'm relegated to the boats at the community center... not clear why that should matter to you?

When finances allow, the VX is appealing more than the J/70. To my taste the J/70 is plowing too much at the total weight with 600 lb crew, and I don't think it will do well with crew of 360 lb without trapezing, and trapezing seems odd for that boat. If business improves enough, I would go with the Shaw 650 even given the cost of importing.

But I don't think you really were interested: given your previous responses to my posts, I take the above as more of a snide remark.

[hermetic]

Post #384 was not by any sailmaker but rather by a J Boat dealer.

It's not surprising that the sailmakers would choose not to post. It would not be professional to do so unless specifically asked by the client, really.

It would be counterproductive to proffer ANY criticism of a boat that you are trying to become a one design provider for (I know, Captain Obvious here). So I'm not sure why the poster values the opinion of a sailmaker.

I value the opinion of Kerry and Timmy despite the fact that they are sailmakers. They've got just a bit more experience than Block. Just a bit.

And pro's avoid this place because it's a sewer.

[narecet]

It wouldn't matter if it were Her Majesty's Own Royal Website: it would be unprofessional to post opinions about a boat unless asked to do so by the client or unless it's just indisputably exactly the sort of material that their own marketing people are putting out and definitely would approve of.

[Monster Mash]

I've seen many referances to the J70 being a scaled down version of the J80. If one were to substitute J80 for J70 in the Clean review would it still be accurate?

[Snapper95]

1335370843[/url]' post='3686948']
Right now I'm relegated to the boats at the community center... not clear why that should matter to you?

When finances allow, the VX is appealing more than the J/70. To my taste the J/70 is plowing too much at the total weight with 600 lb crew, and I don't think it will do well with crew of 360 lb without trapezing, and trapezing seems odd for that boat. If business improves enough, I would go with the Shaw 650 even given the cost of importing.

But I don't think you really were interested: given your previous responses to my posts, I take the above as more of a snide remark.

Actually, I'm interested in your experience to try to better understand your perspective. What you've sailed, your age and fitness (same for your crew availability) and whether your have owned a boat, have a place to store it at your home or apartment all dictate one's desire.
Of course if you have a active OD flieet in your area that tumps everything.
Think you'll find with me that you get back what you give.

[Snapper95]

1335371847[/url]' post='3686963']

And pro's avoid this place because it's a sewer.

Any idea of a forum with a good discussion of something like a J70? I don't believe there is anything on Jboats site yet other than the usual front page.

[ctutmark]

Post #384 was not by any sailmaker but rather by a J Boat dealer.

It's not surprising that the sailmakers would choose not to post. It would not be professional to do so unless specifically asked by the client, really.

And Norman is also a partner in Quantum Sails, been a sailmaker far longer than he's been a J Dealer. Just sayin....

[narecet]

Post #384 was not by any sailmaker but rather by a J Boat dealer.

It's not surprising that the sailmakers would choose not to post. It would not be professional to do so unless specifically asked by the client, really.

And Norman is also a partner in Quantum Sails, been a sailmaker far longer than he's been a J Dealer. Just sayin....

Thank you for the correction.